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New Findings Confirm Darwin's Theory — Evolution Not Random

ScienceDaily is reporting a team of biologists has demonstrated that evolution is a deterministic process, rather than a random selection as some competing theories suggested. "When the researchers measured changes in 40 defined characteristics of the nematodes' sexual organs (including cell division patterns and the formation of specific cells), they found that most were uniform in direction, with the main mechanism for the development favoring a natural selection of successful traits, the researchers said."

74 of 386 comments (clear)

  1. Ah, but... by susano_otter · · Score: 5, Funny

    the main mechanism for the development favoring a natural selection of successful traits

    Ah, but did this deterministic development mechanism evolve deterministically or randomly?
    --

    Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    1. Re:Ah, but... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is it 'deterministic' or 'random' that a positively charged object is attracted to a negatively charged object, or is it merely a consequence of the way things are?

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
    2. Re:Ah, but... by phatvw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Deterministic selection might be obvious. But can anyone offer an explanation how the very first instance of a successful trait comes about?
      I have faith that the first instance of a long neck was due to one or more coincident random mutations.

    3. Re:Ah, but... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This says nothing about the way in which a trait arise--merely that the selection process that determines which traits are likely to be passed on is not random.

      Also, there's no reason to have faith in this. Leave faith to the religious folks--these are facts, which are true whether or not you 'believe' them.

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
    4. Re:Ah, but... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is an unfortunate man who counts another as an enemy--the more you hate 'em, the more you risk becoming like 'em.

      Referring to scientific facts in terms of 'faith' and 'belief' is rather an unfortunate choice of terminology. There's no need to believe in facts. There's no need to 'have faith' in random mutations--you can prove to yourself that such things happen, and thus have no need for 'faith'.

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
    5. Re:Ah, but... by shimage · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Two points:

      1. While it's good to verify things, you do realize that this proves nothing, right? It is merely in line with the one theory that we have for this sort of thing. It doesn't go anywhere near proving it. To prove that evolutionary selection is deterministic, you'd have to show that it was true for all cases, and that's a bit difficult. What this experiment shows is that for the species tested, traits considered, over the time analyzed, nothing abnormal was observed.
      2. There is no "competing theory", just Darwin's. There are those of us that believed that it the selection of traits was deterministic, and then there are ... creationists. Those that are in between don't make up a significant population in the scientific community. Also note that this study is irrelevant for the evolution/ID debate, since this is supposed to determine how evolution goes about, not whether it goes about.
      3. While I don't think that this experiment wasn't worth doing, I don't think it's news. It's like going out to measure the mass of a photon and discovering that it's less than you can measure (yes, I know this has been done; it wasn't very exciting). It doesn't break anything we thought was fine, and doesn't prove anything we didn't already know: it simply puts limits on how wrong our theory can possibly be.

    6. Re:Ah, but... by WgT2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is the following a fact or faith?

      The Sun will rise tomorrow (whether over clouds or otherwise).
      What say ye?

      Hint: ISATRAP

    7. Re:Ah, but... by kemushi88 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Facts have a known liberal bias.

    8. Re:Ah, but... by Adambomb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is why I would like to have clarified why people seem to think that the concept of Creationism is even at odds with Evolution.

      Personally, I would find it much less insulting as a deity if people realized I was an absolutely incredible systems programmer able to start a ball rolling with some precursor components and have all of earths current life unfold from them as planned. It would kind of belittle the effort to say He just snapped his fingers.

      I hear the rebuttal constantly that the words of mankind are unable to contain the meanings God would be trying to impart on the writers, and this type of complexity would be EXACTLY the kind of thing mankind would be unable to even conceptualize millennia ago.

      Creationism and Evolution are not mutually exclusive. The roots of creationism are simply unable to be tested or verified by humanity currently so it remains a leap of faith to believe that God designed the layout of dominos. We can't even say if there was a START to the universe, or whether it is some bizarre infinite system, or a finite-yet-recursive system or what.

      For the die hard ultra-fundamentalist AS WELL AS the hardcore ultra-atheistic, keep in mind that NOTHING can be known to be 100% accurate, maybe a bunch of nines of significance based on what we know but never 100%. Even the probability we determine based on what we know would be in the same boat (IE: see Newtonian mechanics, almost correct, 'works' depending on frame of reference).

      If we could, humanity would have no need for faith, as everything would simply be. Seeing as that would leave even less room in existence for free will, I'm definitely glad things are not that way (despite some things done in the name of faith or in the name of science).

      DISCLAIMER: I'm still one who prefers the random swerving to being a gear in a deterministic system, but that doesnt mean what i'd like the model of existence to look like is correct.

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    9. Re:Ah, but... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah YHBT HAND ...

      "If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part."
        Richard Feynman

      "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
          -- Albert Einstein

    10. Re:Ah, but... by jgarra23 · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Trying to argument by calling things "merely the way they are" is what I hate my Christian enemies for.


      All science comes from the idea that one does not know and uses a sound method to determine things. Until you know the process involved it is "the way things are". Things fell to the ground for centuries that's the way it was until we learned the force of gravity.

      I don't know of any religion that accepts "that's the way things are", they all try to say "no it's not! This is the result of our doing something!!"

      Try telling a Pentacostal that our existence is "just the way things are, no more no less" and let me know what kind of answer you get back.

      BTW, I couldn't agree with you more on what infuriates me about them :)

    11. Re:Ah, but... by Mantaar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is an unfortunate man who counts another as an enemy--the more you hate 'em, the more you risk becoming like 'em. There's a German Proverb that goes:
      Die größten Kritiker der Elche waren früher selber welche
      translates to: the greatest critics of the moose have been moose themselves in the past... (rhymes in German and is thus funny, sounds ridiculous in my translation)

      I hope you understand my point. Been there, done that - not a hard liner, but a naïve child, ready to believe in something sound - then I turned away in disgust as my mind started liberating itself from all that Christian... propaganda?

      I don't think I have a chance of becoming religious once again - and I think that you misunderstood my usage of 'enemy'. I don't hate them, but I must oppose them.
      --
      I'm an infovore...
    12. Re:Ah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well... From a scientist who is also very religious...

      If you think that science deals in facts, you're mistaken. Science is more a process of coming up with explanations for the observations that we have. For example, we see something, we come up with a theory and then set out to "prove" the theory correct. Unfortunately, we find historically, that the scientific proof of things is almost always flawed, as it was with newtonian physics, but is frequently good enough to get by. There are all sorts of stuff that we're able to build with the flawed scientific information that we gather.

      Again, historically, we have shown that as humans, we aren't very good at understanding "fact" through science. We're much better at understanding approximations that are good enough for what we're trying to accomplish at that time. As we come up with different needs or as someone looks a bit further than their colleagues, we come up with better approximations. I see most of science as an exercise of faith quite as much as religion.

      As was noted at a medical school. "Half of what we're going to teach you about medical science is false. We're just not sure which half yet."

      I agree that facts are true regardless of what you believe. I just don't think that science is all about fact.

    13. Re:Ah, but... by yali · · Score: 3, Informative

      Creationism and Evolution are not mutually exclusive.

      Yes they are, at least for the standard dictionary definition of creationism:

      creationism:
      1. the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.
      2. the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, esp. in the first chapter of Genesis.

      Keep in mind, "Creationism" != "Religious faith". There are plenty of people who believe in God and who accept the scientific theory of evolution. But they are not creationists.

    14. Re:Ah, but... by susano_otter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's a bizarre definition of "creationism". It's been my experience, after decades of interacting with large numbers of creationists in various contexts, that the "creation-is-incompatible-with-evolution" types are but one small faction among many.

      You may want to reconsider reference.com as a reliable source of unbiased information on controversial subjects.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    15. Re:Ah, but... by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ask me again tomorrow afternoon.

    16. Re:Ah, but... by bwalling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      these are facts, which are true whether or not you 'believe' them.
      Don't misrepresent what science is. Science is always changing its mind based on new findings. That's what it is supposed to do. This is our current understanding. It may be the true behavior of nature; it may only be the best explanation for what we currently know and we'll later discover something that provides a much better explanation. You shouldn't call something like this 'true' - you should simply say that it is the current explanation. There will always be more information to uncover - do you really think science will reach some kind of end?
    17. Re:Ah, but... by jawtheshark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know I'm playing the devils advocate here.... (being not very religious, I've been baptised Catholic, and I did marry before Church. Mainly because of my wife though and she really didn't have religious things in mind... anyway... offtopic)

      I don't know of any religion that accepts "that's the way things are", they all try to say "no it's not! This is the result of our doing something!!"

      Actually, they all accept the mantra "that's the way things are". They just accept the view from thousands years ago, where there wasn't a real explanation and someone made up a fairy tale. For them that "is the way things are". Knowledge, doesn't change, nor evolve for them. It just "is". Science on the other hand, evolves, corrects itself, gets better. They are unable to, because of the mantra "that's the way things are". Science works following the mantra "Now, that's odd... Why in the world would it behave like this? I need to look deeper into that".

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    18. Re:Ah, but... by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you think that science deals in facts, you're mistaken. Science is more a process of coming up with explanations for the observations that we have. For example, we see something, we come up with a theory and then set out to "prove" the theory correct. Unfortunately, we find historically, that the scientific proof of things is almost always flawed, as it was with newtonian physics, but is frequently good enough to get by. There is a fundamental misunderstanding here. Science never proves that a theory is "correct" -- theories never become facts -- science instead proves that a theory has useful predictive power. Newton's laws of motion remain "proven" on this basis: the engineering calculations needed to put a man on the moon, for example, were done with deliberate disregard for relativity, for Newton's laws had just as much useful predictive power after Einstein as before.

      A hypothesis doesn't get called a theory until it has demonstrated substantial predictive power, and so is almost never found to be "incorrect" later. Instead conditions are discovered under which the old theory doesn't make useful predictions, and the new theory is "more general", or accurate to more decimal places, etc.
      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    19. Re:Ah, but... by Gandalf_Greyhame · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is the following a fact or faith? The Sun will rise tomorrow (whether over clouds or otherwise). What say ye?
      Neither, as the sun is stationary and therefore unable to rise. Perhaps the correct question to ask would be "As the Earth continues in it's daily rotation, will there be a sun in the sky tomorrow"

      Now, if we think about this logically, if the sun was not in existence, the Earth would stop moving around the sun, and therefore there would be no tomorrow.
      Therefore I have decided, using logic, that without a tomorrow, there is no sun. Therefore it is a fact that the sun will rise tomorrow.
      --
      I am not stubborn. I am right!
    20. Re:Ah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just to be clear, so we don't assume any misconceptions here about Einstein and religion:

      I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind. -- Einstein

      It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. -- Einstein

    21. Re:Ah, but... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 3, Informative

      ID is about HOW Evolution Occurs. It occurs Intelligently. ID says Evolution's theory that it is entirely nature's luck is incorrect. No, "Intelligent Design" is a way of claiming the development of the species is/was directed by God without invoking the 'G' word. It still ascribes the development to an external intelligence which designed the system from scratch. Organisms self-selecting beneficial genes is not what they're talking about when they say "Intelligent Design".
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    22. Re:Ah, but... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? I always thought that to be considered Creationist one simply had to believe that God engineered all that is, regardless of how. When people talk about "creationists", they generally mean the ones that believe the world is a few thousand years old, that man and monkey are not related (why, the very idea!), and/or any of the many scientifically laughable fairy tales found in old religious fairy tale texts. Those kinds are bad not because they believe in some Skydaddy, but because they actively refuse to acknowledge scientific fact. It's an issue of willful ignorance. I consider myself fairly rational. If I personally witness Jesus his bad ol' self coming down right in front of me, walking on water, and then hanging out with me all day to explain why Born-Again Christianity is the TRUTH, I'd very much be forced to consider the possibility that such might be the case. Conversely, the Creationist Nutter faction refuses to see what's before their very eyes, instead clinging to some internal definition of TRUTH that increasingly conflicts with observable reality.

      For the "creationists" who believe God coded up the source for the universe in one marathon 6-day hacking spree and then typed "root#make universe" which set off the Big Bang, well, where's the point of argument? The lesser "why" of the mechanics is pure science, and the greater "Why" of the motivation for making it that way is pure abstract philosophy. The two never conflict, or even really overlap.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    23. Re:Ah, but... by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Firstly, a distinction should probably be made between the mechanism of evolution (living things adapt over time), the concept of abiogenesis (that life arose from non-living matter), and the terms (which I dislike) "macro"evolution and "micro"evolution - meaning respectively, that evolution is responsible for significant differences between organisms, and that evolution is only capable of making slight adjustments to existing organisms (and would be incapable of, say, evolving a single-celled organism into a horse).

      Just as the term "creationism" is somewhat of an umbrella term, covering a whole spectrum of more specific beliefs, so the term "evolution", at least in popular usage, seems to conflate a whole bunch of the terms I outlined above. Some elements of evolutionary theory are compatible with some aspects of creationist belief, some are not. Saying that the two are incompatible is a generalization that is probably not justified.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    24. Re:Ah, but... by dch24 · · Score: 5, Informative
      I don't know why you posted AC, but I couldn't accept your Albert Einstein assertion on faith... even if you had signed your post.

      But the sources for relevant Wikipedia articles are credible primary sources. (Brian, Dennis (1996), Einstein: A Life, New York: John Wiley & Sons, p. 127, ISBN 0-471-11459-6) To save you some time, I've added some line breaks but retained the context.

      In 1929, Boston's Cardinal O'Connell branded Einstein's theory of relativity as "befogged speculation producing universal doubt about God and His Creation," and as implying "the ghastly apparition of atheism." In alarm, New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein asked Einstein by telegram: "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words." In his response, for which Einstein needed but twenty-five (German) words, he stated his beliefs succinctly:

      "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."

      The rabbi cited this as evidence that Einstein was not an atheist, and further declared that "Einstein's theory, if carried to its logical conclusion, would bring to mankind a scientific formula for monotheism." Einstein wisely remained silent on that point.
      Now for the second quote:

      "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

      (Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman (eds) (1981). Albert Einstein, The Human Side. Princeton University Press, 43.)
    25. Re:Ah, but... by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 4, Funny

      Elk. Elk. Elk. Moosen live in Sweden. Elken live in Deutchland. And whoever heard of a critical moose? Is that when you have enough moose that fission becomes self-sustaining?

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    26. Re:Ah, but... by ibbey · · Score: 2, Funny

      Grammatically, linguistically and geographically you might be correct, but you have to give it to him that a moose are funnier than elk.

    27. Re:Ah, but... by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2, Funny

      A notable exception to the "k sounds are funny" law of humor.

    28. Re:Ah, but... by xPsi · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think the "oo" trumps the "k" in this case.

      --
      i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
    29. Re:Ah, but... by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's possible to think a particular church hierarchy is despicable without finding Christianity itself objectionable. It's unfortunate that you don't see the distinction, particularly given the overwhelming evidence of the existence of groups which have splintered from the church over the years as a result of similar frustrations.

      You offered a German proverb, I'll swap you an English one: you threw the baby out with the bathwater.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    30. Re:Ah, but... by omris · · Score: 2, Insightful

      see, we're scientists. we don't like to use that word.

      we call it a 'prediction'. it's less scary.

      faith is what we have that our predictions will be correct. but only in secret.

    31. Re:Ah, but... by Slur · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It all makes sense to me. It's a reasonable question to ask: Does evolution evolve? Certainly it ought to. Those organisms whose DNA better tweaks the likelihood of mutations in useful ways would tend to be better evolvers. If it happens to be a trait of DNA that some regions have more "mutational flexibility" than others, eventually these regions would tend to be arranged to favor useful mutations. And if enough of these regions exist it could form a sophisticated predictive system. Now imagine DNA in which "concerted mutations" benefit the organism, but only in certain reinforcing or complimentary arrangements. Then when certain mutations prove beneficial, those others that compliment them will begin to emerge too.

      Interesting stuff, how systems with simple rules can create such amazingly complex systems as ourselves... and in a sense, blindly.

      --
      -- thinkyhead software and media
    32. Re:Ah, but... by MPolo · · Score: 2

      I think that the problem is that there are a lot of people who use the name "Intelligent Design" for different things. I suspect anyone who is reading Slashdot and considers himself a follower of Intelligent Design has a theory somewhat like the GP post: Evolution is an observed fact, but the mechanism for that observed fact is unclear, but seems to show signs of being directed toward positive results, hence the hypothesis of an intelligent designer who either planned it all that way in advance, or nudges the system along the way, or similar -- the point being that evolution is fully accepted by these people.

      Unfortunately, there is a much more vocal group of people who use the name "Intelligent Design" as a code-word for creationism according to Genesis 1-2. These people deny evolution and generally see all differentiation of species as a direct intervention of the creator. This group uses the name because it's much easier to sell politically than creationism...

      I suppose we need a new term to differentiate the two concepts, so that we are at least on the same wavelength when we disagree about this...

    33. Re:Ah, but... by CougMerrik · · Score: 2, Informative

      "In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory." (John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution) I believe most mainstream Christian faiths accept generally all mainstream scientific theories. Thermodynamics, gravity, electromagnetism, mechanics, biology..I think we're all on board. I don't see what should infuriate you about that. There are ignorant Christians who like to argue, and ignorant atheists who like to argue as well. They're both equally infuriating to reasonable people.

    34. Re:Ah, but... by fimbulvetr · · Score: 4, Funny

      A moose once bit my sister.

    35. Re:Ah, but... by foobsr · · Score: 2, Informative

      You offered a German proverb, I'll swap you an English one: you threw the baby out with the bathwater.

      Hmm.

      "When the proverb "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" or its parallel proverbial expression "To throw the baby out with the bath water" appear today in Anglo-American oral communication or in books, magazines, newspapers, advertisements or cartoons, hardly anybody would surmise that this common metaphorical phrase is actually of German origin and of relatively recent use in the English language. It had its first written occurrence in Thomas Murner's (1475-1537) versified satirical book Narrenbeschwörung (1512) which contains as its eighty-first short chapter entitled "Das kindt mit dem bad vß schitten" (To throw the baby out with the bath water) a treatise on fools who by trying to rid themselves of a bad thing succeed in destroying whatever good there was as well. In seventy-six rhymed lines the proverbial phrase is repeated three times as a folkloric leitmotif, and there is also the first illustration of the expression as a woodcut depicting quite literally a woman who is pouring her baby out with the bath water.1 Murner also cites the phrase repeatedly in later works and this rather frequent use might be an indication that the proverbial expression was already in oral currency towards the end of the fifteenth century in Germany."
      http://www.deproverbio.com/DPjournal/DP,1,1,95/BABY.html

      Anyway, somehow I see it perfectly fits.

      CC.

      --
      TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    36. Re:Ah, but... by background+image · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Hume says it smarterer than I can...

      Hume--and Kant--are also a lot 'smarterer' than me ;-)

      However, Kant did come up with quite a plausible theory for why Hume was not quite right about that (and in doing so, essentially invented epistemology as a separate area of study). Whether or not he successfully demonstrated that his theory was correct is (still) an open question.

      Very briefly what he supposed was that any experience whatsoever of the 'world' is only accessible through certain features of our perceptual and cognitive apparatus. Chief among these are time and space, but in addition, there are twelve a priori categories, including "causality and dependence" according to which experiences are ordered.

      To put it in plainer language, time and space have to do not with reality as such, but with how we perceive reality, while the categories (including causality) and reason allow us to systematize our experiences. It's possible to think of time and space as analogous to being stuck in a space suit with a yellow-tinted visor. You can look through the visor, but everything will look yellow. You can't really be sure that everything--or anything--is yellow, but the only way you can see anything at all is to see it as something yellow.

      The practical upshot of this is that according to Kant, while (contra Hume) genuine scientific inquiry is possible without recourse to faith in causation etc, and while our experience is of a real world, there are definite limits to human knowledge:

      1. because time and space are properties of our perceptual and cognitive apparatus, it is absolutely impossible to discover what the world might be 'like' without reference to them, and
      2. the answers to most of the traditional metaphysical questions--such as questions of the existence of god or the immortality of the soul--cannot be determined scientifically.

      For more information, you can go to the Stanford Encyclopedia, or to the source, but when reading Kant, always be sure to take the proper precautions: take adequate food and water, allow plenty of time to get back before dark, and always let somebody know where you're going...

  2. In other news... by Aranykai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Theory of Evolution is once again mistaken for Natural Selection of Advantageous Traits.

    --
    If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    1. Re:In other news... by SoupGuru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is there even a "Theory of Evolution"?

      I thought in science there are facts and then there are theories to explain those facts. In other words, there is the fact that thing evolve and the theory of natural selection explains how they evolve. So not only are we confusing the terms evolution and natural selection, we're misapplying the term "theory".

      --
      What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    2. Re:In other news... by spun · · Score: 4, Informative

      The theory of evolution includes the theory of the selection of advantageous traits, plus methods for the acquisition of new traits, like mutation.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:In other news... by mdwh2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are correct in describing facts and theories, but "evolution" can refer to both. This article explains it well I think - Evolution is a Fact and a Theory.

    4. Re:In other news... by moosesocks · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Natural selection can be easily verified in a laboratory setting, with reproducible results. Keep nuking bacteria, and eventually you'll wind up with a population that is more resilient to the doses of radiation that you're giving them. We can also statistically observe which DNA sequences are advantageous/disadvantageous. The evidence for natural selection is extensive and largely unambiguous.

      Evolution is part of the larger picture, and isn't really possible to test or reproduce, as it explains the consequences of natural selection. "Proving" evolution requires lots of indirect/consequential/incomplete evidence, and the extensive use of statistics (which helps indicate trends and correlations, but can't actually *prove* anything) to interpolate/extrapolate what evidence we have.

      It follows from logic that if species breed randomly, and the mutation doesn't greatly affect an organism's ability to reproduce, the short-term effects of natural selection won't propagate to the long-term, which leaves us with a paradoxical situation wherein Natural Selection is required for evolution to occur, but that the population dynamics associated with natural selection simultaneously prevent long-term evolution from occurring.

      The significance of this study is that we now have some evidence that the "species breed randomly" assumption might not necessarily have been a good one.

      As always, further study on the matter should be pursued.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  3. Thus eliminating the usual trite rhetoric by KublaiKhan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hopefully this will be an effective means of shutting up the old saw of "there's no way that 'simple random chance' could produce the creatures of today from the creatures of yesterday!" and all that other nonsense.

    O'course, it'll probably be misquoted endlessly by the 'intelligent design' folks, given that--at least superficially--it could be seen to "endorse" the concept of a directed design, rather than being an inevitable consequence of the process.

    --
    In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
    A stately pleasure dome decree
    1. Re:Thus eliminating the usual trite rhetoric by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I doubt this will change anyone's opinion of anything because this article doesn't appear to be saying much, just that mutations in a nematode's sex organs tend to be beneficial. Really, to claim that mutations in general have a trend to be helpful after only a single study of a single part of a single organism seems to be stretching it to me.

  4. God Recycles by usul294 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Creationist Interpretation : "God came up with something he liked, so he repeated his design; I mean it must have taken awhile to design millions of organisms, He must have recycled ideas somewhere"

    1. Re:God Recycles by tempest69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Creationist Interpretation : "God came up with something he liked, so he repeated his design; I mean it must have taken awhile to design millions of organisms, He must have recycled ideas somewhere"

      Whats really intresting then is that while a whole bunch of stuff is recycled, the pattern makes a tree where recycling never seems to occur among plants-mammals-birds, so no four cycle breathing for mammals, no bird milk, no bat fruit.. really strange that with all the shortcuts that were taken, so much separation would be faithfully preserved.


      Storm

    2. Re:God Recycles by susano_otter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You really haven't ever bothered to consider the implications of the "creationist" theory, have you?

      If the universe is the creation of a being that transcends time and space, then there's no tedium involved in the design process because there's no time involved in the design process. Any "recycling" of ideas would have occurred for other reasons. As to what those reasons might be, a more likely "creationist" interpretation would be that in realm where time and space have no meaning, how can we possibly figure out the whys and wherefores of things (traditionally, "God works in mysterious ways").

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    3. Re:God Recycles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Whats really intresting then is that while a whole bunch of stuff is recycled, the pattern makes a tree where recycling never seems to occur among plants-mammals-birds, so no four cycle breathing for mammals, no bird milk, no bat fruit.. really strange that with all the shortcuts that were taken, so much separation would be faithfully preserved. Please explain the platypus.

    4. Re:God Recycles by Nimey · · Score: 3, Funny

      Shut up.

          -- GOD

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
  5. Wait... what's different here? by eepok · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hmm... I don't understand...

    From what I picked up in bio, it was known to work as such:

    Assume Mutation
    (1) If mutation not hindrance, animal likely to live and likely makes babies.
    (2) If mutation is boon, animal more likely to live and more likely makes babies.
    (3) If mutation is hindrance, animal less likely to live and less likely to make babies

    From there, you consider whether or not the mutation is recessive/dominant which determines if the babies get the mutation (then referred to as a trait).

    Repeat many many times and you get a separation of a special line.

    The proper combination of factors being: mutation = beneficial, mutation dominant, mutated animals screw like proverbial rabbits.

    How is this different from the new findings?

    1. Re:Wait... what's different here? by AntiMotive · · Score: 2, Informative

      Different? No. Adding to a mountain of supporting data obtained through scientific measures? Yes. /2my2cents

    2. Re:Wait... what's different here? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The way I understood the article, observed mutations tended to be favorable to begin with. In other words, instead of the mutations being random, they are more likely to be favorable than unfavorable. So there seems to be some sort of mechanism that selects beneficial mutations BEFORE procreation or death kicks in. I'm not sure though if that's simple misreporting on the part of the author of the article.... wouldn't be the first time.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    3. Re:Wait... what's different here? by kebes · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I was confused, too. Here's the reference to the actual paper:
      Karin Kiontke, Antoine Barrière, Irina Kolotuev, Benjamin Podbilewicz, Ralf Sommer, David H.A. Fitch, and Marie-Anne Félix Trends, Stasis, and Drift in the Evolution of Nematode Vulva Development Current Biology (November 2007), 17, p. 1925-1937.

      TFA seems to be misrepresenting the research somewhat. They claim that there is a divide in evolutionary theory between "random inheritance" and "deterministic inheritance." However, the actual article is describing the difference between unbiased (stochastic) and biased (selected or constrained) evolution of variation. In both cases the usual random genetic variation with fitness selection would occur.

      The scientists are not claiming that evolution is deterministic or guided, but rather that there are strong selections and constraints that bias some variations to be more likely to appear than others. In their words:

      We propose that developmental evolution is primarily governed by selection and/or selection-independent constraints, not stochastic processes such as drift in unconstrained phenotypic space.
      As an example of a constraint, they mention "generative constraints" (i.e. fitness is selecting for a certain feature, and there are multiple ways of achieving that feature, but one's genetic heritage will bias one implementation over another). Their evidence for the drift in variations being generally "biased" is based on the occurrence (over generations) of various traits: for instance they observe fewer "reversals" (reappearance of traits that were previously common) than would be expected if the variability were entirely stochastic/random.

      This is, in any case, my understanding of the paper... but I'm a chemist/physicist, not a biologist! (So hopefully a biologist in the crowd will further explain this paper.) Overall, however, I think the article doesn't summarize the work properly, since they are suggesting that evolution is highly directed and deterministic, whereas the paper is instead analyzing the "degree of bias" that is inherent to the selection effects of evolution. For instance, the scientific paper doesn't claim that evolution can't produce non-advantageous mutations.
    4. Re:Wait... what's different here? by dasunt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've always thought that the rate of mutation should be alterable as well.

      Depending on the creature, it may take more effort or less effort to ensure the integrity of its DNA. Some creatures can take massive doses of radiation and survive, some can survive massive exposures to what would be carcigenic in humans, etc.

      So shouldn't evolution heuristically arrive at a rate of mutation that is beneficial to a species?

      I thought this was obvious, but maybe I should write a paper on it. :p

    5. Re:Wait... what's different here? by snaz555 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My rather layperson understanding is that the findings prove there are N-order effects in evolution. Given what we know about the complex interaction of genes and how they switch one and other off in complex networks, there are many layers of order where changes can occur, and conversely any one change could impart both, say, a bigger eye as well as a tendency to evolve say the skin in some direction. So you can have one immediately beneficial change, like a slightly tweaked eye, that takes hold quickly act to set up the species for other future directional changes -- or even 2-, 3-, or N-th order changes (like changes to the switching graph itself). Evolution also isn't centered around individual procreation. Clearly few ants or bees procreate, yet they are extremely successful as species. Evolution is about the success of the species, and can't be reduced to a 'fittest of the lineages' even in species where all or most individuals are genetically enabled to do so. Anyway, I'm sure a real geneticist or other professional in the field could really clue us in much better.

    6. Re:Wait... what's different here? by Alsee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the artcle:
      An opposing theory says evolution takes place through randomly inherited and not necessarily advantageous changes. Using the giraffe example, there would not be a common neck-lengthening trend; some would develop long necks, while others would develop short ones.

      They were testing the alternate theory against standard theory.

      From what I picked up in bio, it was known to work as such:
      Assume Mutation
      (1) If mutation not hindrance, animal likely to live and likely makes babies.
      (2) If mutation is boon, animal more likely to live and more likely makes babies.
      (3) If mutation is hindrance, animal less likely to live and less likely to make babies


      Yeah. You described standard theory.

      The alternate theory did not accept (1), (2), and (3). Instead it suggested:
      (1) If mutation not hindrance, it's equally random what happens.
      (2) If mutation is boon, it's equally random what happens.
      (3) If mutation is hindrance, it's equally random what happens.

      Basically some genius proposed an "alternate theory" that if you throw a ball in the air, it won't fall down. These valiant researchers threw some balls up in the air to test that alternate theory against the standard theory of gravity.

      Major scientific results! The standard theory held up and the alternate was silly.

      Major scientific results! Anti-evolutionists who think evolution is "merely random and undirected" and therefore impossible to explain life on earth.... those people can most charitably be described as "uninformed" or "misinformed". I will leave the less charitable descriptions to your imagination.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    7. Re:Wait... what's different here? by Eternauta3k · · Score: 4, Informative

      So there seems to be some sort of mechanism that selects beneficial mutations BEFORE procreation or death kicks in
      You never see stuff like people with 2 alleles for sickle cell disease, because they don't make it to birth. Likewise, very bad mutations are selected against at a very early stage. However, mutations are random, there's no way for a cell to control where some cromosome will change.
      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
  6. Am I missing something? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Somehow, I feel that this is indeed novel: as far as I understood it, evolution was taken to be the process by which RANDOM mutations are passed on based on how they affect survival and reproduction rates.

    This seems to say that the mutations aren't random, but that they are biased into a specific direction - one that is more advantageous to begin with. As an example, this would indicate that instead of there being random variations of the length of the neck of the giraffe, the mutations tend, on average, to favor a longer neck to begin with.

    I'd say that's pretty new and spiffy. Did I miss something?

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    1. Re:Am I missing something? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But that's the point of the article - most mutations seem to be beneficial, according to their sets of criteria. This is what I think is new in the article.... though I'm also suspicious that the journalist might have simply misunderstood the scientist. Wouldn't be the first time.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:Am I missing something? by NonSequor · · Score: 2, Informative

      The article makes it sound like this proves that natural selection isn't a stochastic process, but in a couple of places they contradict this. It wouldn't make sense for natural selection to be deterministic.

      My understanding of natural selection is that it's more or less a random walk with drift toward a point determined by the nature of the selection pressures. Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that this new research shows that the drift term of the process is much larger than the error term, not that there is no error term.

      The significance of this would be that if the error term were large enough, the process would be unlikely to converge to the point determined by the selective pressure.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    3. Re:Am I missing something? by IdahoEv · · Score: 2, Informative

      Mutation is partly random, but selection definitely is not. Genes and traits are selected for by their ability to pass themselves on to the next generation. That's a criterion, not "randomness".

      Note: mutation is definitely not always random, either. Organisms have developed extensive systems for modifying and altering how much mutation they incur, and what part of the genome receives those mutations. Look up, for example, the bacterial SOS response, in which bacterial colonies under stress will suddenly amplify their own mutation rate in the hopes that one or more of their member cells will "find a solution" to whatever the current stress and continue to survive. In addition, all organisms protect more critical parts of their genome from mutation to some degree. Truly important things like the region coding for ribosomal RNA and protein subunits tend to get very few mutations, because having a fucked-up ribosome is a death sentence.

      Evolution itself is subject to evolution, and has been crafted to be less than perfectly random.

      --
      I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
  7. Most interesting by strange+dynamics · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think the most interesting thing to come to light in this study is that scientists have identified fourty characteristics of nematode sexual organs.

  8. Finally, there is an answer by eclectro · · Score: 3, Funny

    That it is a deterministic process that will tell how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood.

    They might even be able to write a mathematical expression for it.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  9. interesting career choice by digitalderbs · · Score: 5, Funny

    measured changes in.. nematodes' sexual organs
    and I thought my job sucked.
  10. Link to cited paper by Larthallor · · Score: 3, Informative
  11. The Recursive Nature of Life. by TheLazySci-FiAuthor · · Score: 2

    It sounds to me that life has evolved to evolve.

  12. Of course they studied nematodes by CleverDan · · Score: 3, Funny

    They are obviously creations of His Noodly Appendage

  13. So wait a second... by feepness · · Score: 2, Funny

    Evolution is intelligently designed?

  14. Who comes first? by ImaLamer · · Score: 4, Funny

    A chicken and egg are lying in bed together. They are both smoking.

    The chicken leans over to the egg and says; "I guess we answered that question."

  15. WTF? by jcr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nobody ever said the selection was random, except for some pinhead creationists who didn't know what they were talking about. Mutations are random, and selection is the process by which those individuals with advantageous mutations survive while those with disadvantageous mutations do not.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  16. Re:Missing the point DNA never really evolved ! by bunratty · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You bring up a point that many do not understand. Evolution says nothing about how life or DNA started. It simply explains how once life started with DNA, the process by which it evolves. Similarly the "big bang" theory says nothing about how the universe started. It explains how it expanded and changed from a hot, dense, nearly uniform state to its cold, sparse, unevenly distributed state. There are hypotheses about life starting with an RNA world, or starting with undirected metabolism, but these are completely separate from the theory of evolution, for which we have ample evidence.

    Your other point seems to do with the fact that some evidence is not completely explained by evolution. In science, there is always some observation left unexplained, which is why Einstein's theory of relativity and quantum theory superseded Newton's laws. It does not mean that there must be a supernatural explanation for the observations that are currently unexplained.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  17. What the article is REALLY about by hung_himself · · Score: 3, Informative

    Wow, this is a triple convergence of a bad and confusing title, summary and article (which is a summary of the actual journal article) which is unusual even for slashdot.

    This really isn't about Darwinian evolution which involves random mutations and selection of the favorable ones. However, there are some characteristics which are neither advantageous or disadvantageous. There is a debate about how many characteristics are "neutral". For example, did large noses appear because they are advantageous (for warming air perhaps) or because they just worked out that way by chance. So the original paper asked this question about worm vulvas and found that nearly all the characteristics that they looked at did NOT arrive by chance but were selected for (i.e. were advantageous in some way).

    It is important to note both possible results would be consistent with Darwinian evolution. The only questions being addressed are the mechanism (does evolution go through mostly neutral phenotypes before a favorable phenotype is selected) and the extent that characteristics are neutral. For worm vulvas, it appears that the vulvas that form are biased towards the most favorable ones.

  18. Random Notes by jman.org · · Score: 2, Informative

    Am not a biologist by trade, but had always thought evolution was at its root a random process. It has the potential to try anything, but known survival traits will always be favored.

    We do understand the mechanism by which a trait will become dominant; reproduction of that built-in behavior to offspring. What we don't understand is how such dominance prevents other, competing traits from becoming active.

    In the Science Daily excerpt, they mentioned long-necked giraffes, and how if evolution was random we would also see those of the short-necked variety.

    This logic does not follow. We would see short-necked giraffes only if their survival let them reproduce. As they would tend not to - being unable to reach the leaves at the top of the tall trees, thus denying them the energy required to either attract a mate or carry offspring to term - this hitherto unknown mechanism would not favor that trait becoming dominant, though like the activities of a good pack rat, the DNA which would allow this trait to exist may continue to be stored, and passed - unused - on to future generations.

    Thus, evolution hedges its bets. It may come to pass someday that the short-necked giraffe was more easily able to survive than their long-necked counterparts. Perhaps all trees become shorter. Perhaps some form of brittle bone disease kills the ones with longer necks, and they change their neck length and diet in order to survive. Perhaps they enter into a symbiotic relationship with some other creature that digs up food and leaves it on the ground. Who knows what the future will bring. But should conditions change, the potential for such a trait, still dormant within the species, may emerge to dominance.

    This is not meant to introduce any talk of "design" into evolution, but the fact is our understanding of the system remains in the realm of how traits are passed on, not why.

  19. This is not what you all think by Gastrolith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The title of the post is misleading. This is not intended to be a confirmation of the modern evolutionary theory. This paper is about HOW actually evolution of certain aspects of the nematodes happen, not about whether evolution happens or not at all. The modern theory of evolution considers three different mechanisms in which evolution occur: * Natural selection (the only one described by Darwin), which consists in the differential reproduction of organisms (let's just say organisms, to keep it simple) determined by inheritable traits (adaptive traits. * Genetic drift, which consists in the "random" change in the frequency of a gene in a population. * Genetic flow, which consists in the transference of genes among populations. From the summary of the paper: "We propose that developmental evolution is primarily governed by selection and/or selection-independent constraints, not stochastic processes such as drift in unconstrained phenotypic space." Put simply, this paper says that natural selection is the prevailing mechanism in developmental evolution. Sorry about my bad English. Not a native speaker.