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MPAA Botched Study On College Downloading

An anonymous reader writes "The Associated Press reports that in a 2005 study the MPAA conducted through an outfit called LEK, the movie trade association vastly overestimated how much college students engage in illegal movie downloading. Instead of '44 percent of the industry's domestic losses' owing to their piracy, it's 15 percent — and one expert is quoted as saying even that number is way too high. Dan 'Sammy' Glickman's gang admitted to the mishap, blaming 'human error,' and promised 'immediate action to both investigate the root cause of this problem as well as substantiate the accuracy of the latest report.'"

37 of 215 comments (clear)

  1. Any details on the actual study itself? by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What was done in the study? Survey forms etc?

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    1. Re:Any details on the actual study itself? by rob1980 · · Score: 5, Funny

      They just e-mailed the CEOs of Sony, Fox, Warner Brothers, etc., and asked them to pick a number between 1 and 50.

    2. Re:Any details on the actual study itself? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 5, Funny

      So the fact that they picked 44 instead of 42 shows their disharmony with life, the universe and everything?

      Very interesting, sir! VERY interesting!

    3. Re:Any details on the actual study itself? by ehrichweiss · · Score: 5, Funny

      You forgot to mention how the CEOs, upon learning what the number was for, in hindsight wanted to pick a number between 75 and 98.

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      0x09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
  2. Human Error by snl2587 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, I guess changing the results does constitute "human error"...

    1. Re:Human Error by jd · · Score: 5, Funny

      Only if you accept the hypothesis that the MPAA are comprised of humans. I favour the theory that they are, in fact, a consortium of daleks.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    2. Re:Human Error by Entropius · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nope -- if they were a consortium of Daleks, they'd write better dialogue.

    3. Re:Human Error by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just wait till they use the new stats to claim efforts are working but more still needs done.

    4. Re:Human Error by Adambomb · · Score: 4, Funny

      I could certainly see it.

      litigate. LITIGATE! LITIGATE! LITIGATE!

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    5. Re:Human Error by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I guess changing the results does constitute "human error"...
      Only if you'd class a kamikaze attack as a pilot error.
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  3. Yeah but... by RobertM1968 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While they are at least admitting that THIS report is highly erroneous, it does not even begin to address the plethora of similar reports they have bombarded the media and Internet with that have similar figures.

    So... which reality are they going with? Agreeing that this report is highly off compromises many of their financial claims of the damages file sharing does... or perhaps they will just admit this report is wrong due to "human error" - but the others are right "Please believe everything else we are saying - even though it contradicts our admission of error here."

    C'mon... who does the RIAA think they are fooling? (RIAA) retract all your ridiculous claims - or dont bother... the rest of us know the truth - and have for years.

    1. Re:Yeah but... by WK2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      C'mon... who does the RIAA think they are fooling? (RIAA) retract all your ridiculous claims - or dont bother... the rest of us know the truth - and have for years.

      This article is about the MPAA, not the RIAA. It is understandable how you got them mixed up, though. They seem to be molded from the same cloth.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    2. Re:Yeah but... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 3, Funny
      This article is about the MPAA, not the RIAA. It is understandable how you got them mixed up, though. They seem to be molded from the same cloth.

      There's definitely mold of some sort involved, anyway. Mycology knows better than to give in.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    3. Re:Yeah but... by Merusdraconis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It took the RIAA members about ten years to get from music being shared on the Net to condoning some kind of online store. It's taken the MPAA members, what, about four? Assuming, of course, that iTunes is the first online store to get some kind of wide approval from the various copyright holders for both examples.

      Admittedly the root cause is not that the RIAA/MPAA is inherently evil - they're just PR people, mostly (which negates the whole 'they're not the evil ones' argument but bear with me for a second) - it's the member corporations that have the lawyers that are doing the suing and refuse to change their business model to respond to the market. The root cause of the problem here is that it absolutely blindsided the executives, and they had no-one at any kind of level who could tell them what was going on and what they needed to do about it to respond sensibly to the challenges the Internet posed. These executives didn't give a toss about computers, and frankly who could blame them, they're executives of music and movie companies and actually giving a toss about the industry they're in was seen as being revolutionary.

      Instead, they reasoned that they'd be inevitably be reeled in by some kind of conman who came in and spoke big words about Internet at them if they tried doing something, and bunkered down and fought like old men. It's a big paradigm shift to think of one's product as essentially a PR stunt to sell peripheral stuff like concerts and DVDs, and for both those who are about the money and didn't want to experiment with new business models, and those who are about the art and didn't want their 'product' becoming essentially worthless, it's a challenge they aren't up to facing.

  4. Completely accidental, can happen to anyone by Schmool · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Somehow it always happens to this kind of outfits. Conveniently, the press will jump on the story of those ugly meanies who steal from musicians, but when it's rectification time, that isn't news.

    1. Re:Completely accidental, can happen to anyone by gotzero · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly, the stat becomes truth by the time it is revealed as false, and no one cares. The BS gets accepted, and those crying foul are regarded as conspiracy theorists...

    2. Re:Completely accidental, can happen to anyone by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The BS gets accepted, and those crying foul are regarded as conspiracy theorists...
      Ever noticed how mainstream media has turned "conspiracy theorist" into a negative label?

      No, but seriously, that's exactly what they are. It's just as easy to say, for example "If those statistics were wrong, then how many other similar statistics were also wrong?", than to say "they did it on purpose to infiltrate our legal system". One has a reasonable train of thought behind it and is very constructive, the other is finger-pointing practically devoid of solid evidence, or even a decent plan of action.
      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  5. "Human" error by symbolic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's the kind of error whose magnitude is inversely proportional to the proximity of one's ass.

  6. First impressions by darkhitman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Of course they promise they'll look into it now, because it doesn't matter anymore. The mass public will remember that the MPAA loses 44% of its profits to piracy. That it's since been proven incorrect is almost inconsequential, when it comes to public opinion: the mass media won't cover the story twice just for the sake of correctness, and people will buy right into the MPAA's 'accidentally-mistaken' survey's results.

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    Tell me something...it's still "We, the people"... right?
    1. Re:First impressions by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The thing is, I don't think anyone CARES. Nobody I know even considers downloading from P2P wrong. Some of these people are indeed dense, but even with the smart ones they quickly connect the dots and realize that they aren't taking anything from anyone. Many people actually consider the few of us that download stuff from iTunes "stupid" (eloquent huh?) because I'm paying for something that's available for free in their minds.

      And that's exactly what it is. Movies come on all the time on HBO. They don't pay beyond a small subscription fee to watch them (HBO runs $10-12 per month and broadcasts an insane number of movies in that period. If you watched every one subscription fees would be like $0.05 per movie). If you're willing to suffer broadcast you needn't even pay at all. Songs play for free all day long on the radio. The media companies have painted themselves into the corner where people see media as free because largely, it traditionally has been made available as such. Many people have spent their whole lives buying the few pieces of media that were important to them (a pirated copy of Lord of the Rings or the Harry Potter series is not worth it for me - I want the real thing), and just recording the rest of it off of TV or the radio. P2P is simply the newest version of an old trick to these people, and you'll have a VERY hard time convincing them that it's wrong.

      As such, this report saying 44% of college students pirate media will likely come across will all the impact of reporting that 44% of college students chop down trees at Christmas time.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    2. Re:First impressions by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bullshit. Copying is not stealing. Copying is _copying_. If you're arguing otherwise, you're arguing from incorrect axioms & any conclusion you reach is pointless.

      There's a reason why "Intellectual Property" laws have a whole separate framework of legislation that sets them apart from basic criminal legislation like theft of physical property, and that reason isn't because the legislators thought it would be fun to write the same sorts of laws twice. It's because legislators have to treat the concept of IP protection with a legal rationale which is completely separate from the idea of theft of physical property.

      If you want to argue that IP protection is a good thing, then to make any sort of logical headway you're going to have to show (either through logic or empirical evidence) that IP protection provides some sort of net good to the general society. In addition, the issue is so emotionally charged that the argument that "it is obvious" isn't going to fly: you're going to have to provide references to either peer-reviewed economic studies that show a net benefit to society via IP protective-type mechanisms, or references to case studies of comparable societies with and without IP protective-type laws, where an analysis has been done on the relative pros & cons between each society.

    3. Re:First impressions by BakaHoushi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hmmm. I didn't go out to see a movie yesterday. That means I didn't give the theater $20. I stole from them!

      Sorry, but stealing does not work that way. Theft means one thing and one thing only: To remove physical property from someone so that they may no longer use it and to keep it in your possession.
      If you go into someone's house and use something, it's not theft. It's tresspassing.
      If you break something of someone else's, it's not theft. It's vandalism.
      If you take someone else's idea and claim it as your own, it's plagiarism. Not theft.

      See, to steal is not the same thing as to infringe. They are two different words for a very good reason.

      Besides, you're assuming that these people who download these movies would pay for them otherwise. Just because I wouldn't pay X dollars to see a movie doesn't mean I wouldn't pay X/2 to see it. Or, heck, some movies are so ridiculous these days, I'd only go to see them if someone paid ME. But I suppose others my settle for "free."

    4. Re:First impressions by Panaflex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of copyrights, patents & trademarks. I make a living creating works - and so do many people on slashdot.

      Copyrights not only protect artistic works - but indeed they are the basis of the GPL (which protects major open-source software such as the Linux kernel). When you see a company or person break the GPL license - justice is quickly meted out here.

      That said, the "problem" isn't with copyrights et cetera - it is consumer expectations.

      At least in the USA, we've been very used to paying for "premium" works, and getting older works for free or near free. The major air networks routinely broadcast movies, shows, and music for "free." The ones paying for these are advertisers, obviously - but beyond that it's essentially free. I can record onto tape, share it with a friend, keep it in on a shelf.

      For premium works we buy tickets, subscriptions, DVD's, hard-back books, COTS software, and whatnot. The average consumer spends a lot of money here, and they feel that "buying" the work entitles them to fairly use these works.

      Herein lies the problem: Consumers expect to be able to watch/read/listen on their computer - and they want to do it for around the same price they're already paying. They want choice, freedom to share with a few friends, and what have you.

      Consumers have been "fooled" into thinking it was all really free because broadcasters have been making it essentially "free" for years. But instead of a VCR or a casette tape, we want to use computers - and the internet.

      Copyright holders then did a stupid thing. They blamed their customers for stealing, while at the same time broadcasters are busy pumping content over the air. They called us "pirates" and evil-doers. They said consumers are rapist.

      Here's your solution then. Start distributing your works over the internet. Sell the premium content for a fair price and stop calling the internet evil. Sure, you can build in a few protections like watermarking or digital signing to catch the real pirates! But stop turning against your customers!

      In other words - do what you do best, and stop worrying about the kids that are *stealing* your works. They did it twenty years ago with mix tapes and VCR's - and yet the product still sells. The thing is - people really DO want a quality product. It is about the experience, it is about feeling like your getting a fair value for your money.

      It's time to start moving those models that work in real space onto the internet. Broadcast it, sell tickets, sell movies, market it, and make money. Stop suing grandmothers and kids - it makes you look like monsters.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
  7. [this is not legal advice] by adolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Remember, kids: In America, downloading movies isn't illegal; uploading them is.

    (I'd tell you all how (in a world of BitTorrent) this can be mad to work, but doing so would violate the First and Second Rules, respectively.)

  8. Root cause of this problem would be: by mdenham · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fearmongering, obviously. "ZOMG IT'S 15 PERCENT" doesn't have quite the same impact as "OH LORD THEY'RE CAUSING NEARLY HALF OUR LOSSES".

    1. Re:Root cause of this problem would be: by Alsee · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually if you kept reading it was 3% attributed to college campuses (the issue here).

      Not to mention that the "losses" figure is entirely fictitious in the first place. 3% of a fiction.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  9. The truth wears spandex. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well before this ball gets too far ahead. Let's ask ourselves, if the MPAA can overestimated their "facts"? What makes anyone think that the opposition has underestimated theirs?

  10. just as I posted on K5... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My content from the financial perspective of DRM.. and pretty much why they're done for.

    ___
    What alternatives do we have?

    Our body of law gives rights to the creators and their protected ability of being the one to approve copies. Regardless of whether we agree or now with this, that is our situation.

    Now, we take this to the "digital domain". Those older creators want, no.. need these protections as they see in the non-internet world. The only real way to "guarantee" this is by digital restrictions. The best way I think of this is that of a akin to a capability system and the copyright maintainer has an account on your machine.

    However, our machines are ours. The geeks amongst us demand that we are able to control our software and hardware. What was unable to do in WinXP, Vista seems to offer the beginning of that capability system with the media companies at the kill switch. And to top it off, Vista has remotely disabling drivers for "holes" that might appear. For those that own a machine, this OS laughs in their face, as if saying "Bring It On!"

    And there are many casualties. Those casualties are the Joe and Jane Publics that don't understand this issue close enough, or think that all needs to be done is burn to DVD... just like the iPod to music. When they find out that they are locked with binary garbage that cannot be used for any fair use purpose (backing up owned DVDs is fair usage).

    And where are we now? When the users know they are eventually shafted, those that have the know-how will show others where to download the movies and the music they legitimately bought. Once they know they were taken advantage of, any feeling of "theft" (or whatever you call it) will be gone. The media companies had their chance to do their dealings with the public honestly, but have failed.

    Just like língchí.. Death by a thousand cuts.

    From K5

    And just to expand on that, the media guys had their chance to do honest dealings with the public and the artists. They instead thought they could continue on with their little game. They simply cant.

    As a last comment, ill give the link and the quote of the starting of the nasty fall of the media empire...

    This past week's issue of The Economist has a heart-rending vignette from one of the most ruthlessly capitalist industries on the planet: "In 2006 EMI, the world's fourth-biggest recorded-music company, invited some teenagers into its headquarters in London to talk to its top managers about their listening habits. At the end of the session the EMI bosses thanked them for their comments and told them to help themselves to a big pile of CDs sitting on a table. But none of the teens took any of the CDs, even though they were free. "That was the moment we realized the game was completely up," an EMI exec told the magazine.

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    1. Re:just as I posted on K5... by Volante3192 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But none of the teens took any of the CDs, even though they were free. "That was the moment we realized the game was completely up," an EMI exec told the magazine.

      Maybe the teens were thinking, "It's a trap. Remember what Sony did?"
    2. Re:just as I posted on K5... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I really doubt it.

      Considering the big wigs brought them within headquarters, they most likely offered the best of what they had to offer. Maybe it was good, I dont know. All I do know is that music and movies are easy to get to online, pay or no pay. Why deal with archaic discs with formats from the 80's when 12 mp3s download in a reasonable amount of time, legality or not?

      A service that could keep the record companies afloat is if they opened their collections completely, flat rate .10$ per download. And if you lost the songs, another .10$. Dont keep records of who bought what, too much bookkeeping, and it's just a dime. I just wonder how much money they would make on that kind of deal...

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  11. Re:It's an AP report that is linked by darkhitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not every story on the AP wire will get published by newspapers that subscribe -- the editors choose what to publish and what not to. I doubt this story will make any but the lengthiest print publications, and certainly not headline any online ones.

    Just for sake of argument, let's say you're more than right and this story receives equal coverage on the news; let's say every person who saw the original story sees this correction. Now, it's just a survey, so people know it represents an estimate of the actual percentage. If you were to ask each person what they thought the actual percentage was, would they guess 15%? Or somewhere in-between 15 and 44%? Like my OP's title suggested, first impressions are important -- even when we're talking about numbers.


    P.S. And about actually going to the link: come on, man, this is /.

    --
    Tell me something...it's still "We, the people"... right?
  12. Another 27% by EEPROMS · · Score: 4, Funny

    Of losses were found up the marketing departments nose.

  13. Profits? by rossz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the same industry that had the balls to say the movie "E.T." didn't make a dime.

    And the "root cause" of their error can be attributed to their absolute requirement that they prove huge loses (on their imaginary profits) so they could go to congress and demand "something be done."

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    -- Will program for bandwidth
  14. Not that I don't disagree by Smordnys+s'regrepsA · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What do you expect when the content producers are the ones producing the news content?

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    Just -1, Troll talking to another.
  15. Lost profits???? by secretwhistle · · Score: 4, Interesting
    With the motion picture industry's creative accounting, it's a wonder there's any "profit" to be lost. The following is taken from the Hollywood Law Cybercenter website. http://www.hollywoodnetwork.com/Law/Hart/columns/

    A substantial portion of the direct cost of a film produced on a studio lot is charges for the use of the studio's facilities, including the sound stages, vehicles, equipment, etc. Although the studio incurs no out-of-pocket expense for providing these facilities, it insists that the charges are proper because they comply with the SPD language defining production cost. The charges made for using these facilities are substantially in excess of the actual costs... For example, a studio will charge a motion picture for the use of a vehicle at a rental rate based upon the rental rate being charged by the leading rental-car companies, typically $45 per day or more. This charge, which includes a profit rate equivalent to the rental companies' profit rate, will be made even if the vehicle has long ago been purchased by the studio, and even if the cost of the vehicle has been charged against other films...

    I would think this would keep them rolling in money without having to deal with inconveniences like paying taxes or profit percentages.
  16. This is much like Breathalyzers by Evets · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When the decision of whether or not to allow Breathalyzer evidence into court came into play, they downplayed the inaccuracy issues by a factor of 10. I want to say they report inaccurate results 20% of the time and they claimed a 2% error rate, but you'll have to ask jeeves or google if you want the right numbers.

    The parallel I see is that the damage is done and at this point it is unlikely to be undone.

    They presented the argument they wanted to the people they wanted when they wanted to do it. Although many universities do not have programs in place to prevent piracy, the wheels are in motion and the fact that the decision to do so was based on inaccurate information will not stop anything.

  17. Re:It's an AP report that is linked by mike2R · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well at the time of writing the AP story is dated at 10 hours old by Google, and there are 113 reprints of it according to Google News Sorted by date with duplicates included (seem to be a couple of non-duplicates on the same topic as well, Ars Technica for example, and this Slashdot story will probably show up at some point).

    I'd expect this number to increase but not spectacularly, so I'd say it's getting reasonable coverage but no, it's not set the world on fire or anything.

    --
    This sig all sigs devours