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Canadians Wary of 'Enhanced Drivers Licenses'
Dr.Merkwurdigeliebe writes ""Enhanced drivers licenses such as those to be issued in B.C. will lay the groundwork for a national identity card", federal privacy commissioner Jennifer Stoddart said yesterday.
Stoddart said the licenses, touted as an alternative to a passport for the purpose of crossing the U.S. border, closely resemble the Real ID program in the United States. She characterized that program as a way of introducing a "type of national identity card" for Americans."
Whould that not be 'wary' instead of 'weary'?
It would.
You can get about without a passport or driving license, you can purchase goods without using your SmartCard - but why make life so difficult for yourself when, with just a couple of concessionary biometric measures, you can take the easy path?
There's never any need to convince the masses that something is a good idea; just convince the individual that it's not worth fighting.
Am I preaching? Hell no. When these things get introduced in the UK I'll grumble like hell and offer my vocal support to anyone who opposes the new identity scheme (whatever guise it eventually takes), but at the end of the day...
Meta will eat itself
The article says that these are basically standard licenses, but they include RFID chips.
Is anyone else worried about all these RFID chips that companies and government seem to love putting everywhere? Credit cards? Products? Licenses?
They do realize that RFID is not secure, right? And that anyone with a few bucks can buy or build an RFID reader and cloner? So basically, the validity of your RFID scan is zero. Anyone who can counterfeit a license today will be able to counterfeit a license tomorrow, as long as they do a little research and invest in some extra equipment. It's a business - those who can't (or don't) adapt will die out, and those who do adapt to to the new market will succeed. But it will not be going away any time soon. RFID does not make anything more secure.
Nemilar http://www.techthrob.com - Visit Me!
... just use a passport. I'm surprised the government hasn't thought of this.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
"Weary" sounds like the Canadians have had these things for ages, and are sick of them.
/. headline should be too.
"Wary" means they're distrustful of them, and don't want them to come in.
The linked article certainly uses "wary" so I assume that's what the
No, but they will need them to get back in.
Stop crying you whiny Canadians! In America, we don't worry about such things, as long as we have sports heroes who make $50m/yr that we can still worship and our favorite sit-coms are still on the air and we can still teach our children that the world is 6,000 years old and we can still own machine guns for hunting elk!
Perhaps you mean a different thing than I do when you say "science."
Could someone please explain to me, why Americans, Canadians, Brits and Australians are so afraid of a national ID card?
I live in continental Europe in a country where everyone is expected to be able to identify himself to the police at any time, in a country where there's a central voter register and if you move, you are expected to register yourself with the local town inside of 3 weeks. That sounds like the total police state, doesn't it?
Lets see how this works out in reality:
[b]Identify yourself[/b]: Usually any official document with picture is ok, in reality this means in most cases your driving license - issued nationally, your national ID card or your passport (which many people have anyway to get to the sea in summer). As most Americans have a driving license anyway, this wouldn't change a lot of things for a good part of the population. The issuers of the driving licenses might need do a little more work checking the identity to prevent issues to the wrong name or wrong dates - but this wouldn't affect the common people.
The benefit of having a national ID card on the other hand is, that there's only a small number of documents used commonly and if you have one, you are identified. No more 'Bring 3 types of ID' stuff. You have your driving license, your passport or your ID card, you are set. If those are good enough for the police, they are good enough for everyone else too (eg banks, insurances, airlines).
As those official documents are quite important, forging those, getting those in wrong names or otherwise messing with them is taken very, very seriously by law enforcement. You don't mess around with your driving license just to get some beer before you should (which wouldn't be a problem anyway, once you get a driving license you're also considered old enough to get alcohol), that would send you quite quickly to jail. This improves the general trust in those documents.
At the same time identity theft a lot less of a problem here. If you need to identify yourself, you show one of those documents and everyone is happy. Should, for instance, a bank teller have doubts about your documents, you'll just be invited for a coffee while the police quickly drops by to check your documents. If it clear, fine, if it doesn't you're in deep deep trouble. To try getting around with a fake identity, you immediately raise the stakes to the level of a federal crime, which in most cases isn't worth the risk to small time criminals.
[b]To the police:[/b] So yes, the police may ask you at any time to identify yourself. If not, they can put you in lock-up for some time (similar to the 24 hours available to the American police if one can trust crime shows) to check your identity. In day to day operation, is seems very similar no matter if there's a national ID card scheme or not. If the police doesn't like your face, they can give you a hard time.
For people without ID, there are some procedures to get identified, but those take time and effort. If you happen to be one of the unfortunates without ID, your ID got lost / stolen / whatever, you do it only once to get a temporary replacement before having the new ones issued.
[b]Central voter register:[/b] So wherever you live, you are forced to register yourself inside 3 weeks. This is done mainly for the voter register, to have an idea who can vote in what district, for the tax man and for the police who likes to have a total control over the citizens.
The voter register is a good thing, it makes fraud and manipulation at the time of elections a little harder - you ain't registered officially in the district, you ain't going to vote for it.
The tax man is unfortunately very unavoidable. No matter if there's a national ID card or not, Mr. Tax man will own you and your data - in Soviet Russia and everywhere else too.
The police might have it a little easier to start up to indulge in their totalitarian police state fantasies if they have a national ID card. But if they don't they just dig into the d
Sure the Chinese have ID cards and sure they execute people. I'm not for any form of ID card, but it seems as though you're insinuating that they're somehow connected, and that's a fairly stupid link.
ID Cards != Execution by lethal injection
Because the ID card act is really about creating a centralised government database that stores all information about you in one place. Not just personal information either - this would be every electronic record that exists about you, like what you buy and where you travel. Some people think this would be overly intrusive, that it would give too much power to the authorities, and that the data might be stolen or lost. (You might remember some recent news stories about government data being lost: this happens quite often.)
However, most people do not understand about the database and do not care about the ID cards, so people who think it's a good idea are in luck. I guess we will see the consequences in twenty years time.
>north
You're an immobile computer, remember?
Germany has ID cards, too. You don't see any people being executed here, though.
...).
Honestly, an ID card *per se* is not a scary thing. The scary thing is the collective databases your government or companies(*) create, and the tracking of phone records, movements (through ID cards, EC/credit cards,
My government (Germany) introduced biometric information into passports through the EU backdoor, when the first attempt failed on a federal level. THAT's scary! The former Secretary of the Interior pulled that trick on us.
(*) Yes, they WILL make the data available to the government, is "asked" to.
Agreed. The Chinese execute people as well as the North Koreans. It depends on the reason behind the issue of the ID card -> if it is a means of controlling the populace a'la Communism = bad idea. If it is a means of keeping track of your population i.e. paranoid US governmant = Bad idea depending on who you talk to. If it is a more efficient means of doing what normal ID docs have done for years = Bad idea depending on who you talk to...
No connection to mass executions...
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
If you read the US Constitution, that nice document the current US government ignores, you will see the seeds of government distrust in the US. Simply put, the Founding Fathers knew that governments become corrupt and they sought to head it off at the start, the Constitution defines the rights the people give to government, not what government gives to the people. It puts strict limits on how the government can act. The states were to be powerful entities in their own right.
Unfortunately our courts were supposed to protect us from the government making laws unconstitutional but they failed. Instead being government cronies themselves they let the government run the public and states over. Combined with the public being given the ability to vote for Senators and states lost their ability to oppose the government.
Doesn't mean the people gave in. While many are just fine and dandy with taking government handouts they don't want them in their house. A national id is like inviting them in. Once their in they will suddenly show up for dinner telling you what you can eat, telling you what you can watch or listen too, let alone eventually telling you what doctor your allowed to see.
We give up too much of our freedom already. We do not need a National ID card to prevent erroneous entry on documents we fill out during our days. We certainly don't need a one size fits all easy to create fradulent versions to further identity theft.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
"The Canuk's won't accept an ID card. They have just as many guns and ammo as the US does and they really don't like being screwed with."
:|
Canuck*
But I dont think we (im Canadian) would be very wise to use guns to express our anger towards this identitfication card, considering thats part of the reason why its trying to be implimented, because aparently us crazy Canadians are ever so fond of sending terrorists to your country.
http://www.johnvandongen.com/
"He sat on the Select Standing Committees on Agriculture and Fisheries and on Crown Corporations, as well as the Official Opposition Caucus Committee on Children."
"Before his election to the Legislative Assembly, John operated a dairy farm in Abbotsford."
First of all, I have NO idea what the "Caucus Committee on Children" is, and the only references to it that I can find only come back to various biographies of John Van Dongen... but considering he used to heard cattle, and is involved with some comittee of children? now he wants to heard adults? I digress.
As much as I'd like to believe that this ID Card wont "make it", that we will wake up, and finally realize whats going on...im sure it will eventually, even though most Canadians avoid entering US Soil now, even though our dollars are nearly par, simply because we know its going to be a hassle, and most of us are more aware of the Patriot Act(s) than Americans are... it wont be long before we have a National ID (as apposed to the Provincial that exists now), then a Continental ID card, (North American Union) because "its so much easier", it wont be long before its on the news and daytime TV...
"it used to take me 20 minutes to cross the border, having to dig up all my papers and such, but with this new ID Card it was a snap, was as quick as buying my groceries through the self-check-out isle, its great!"
What on earth is this supposed to imply? That id-cards boost unjust trials? You cannot be hinting at the ethical problems connected with capital punishments, since the US uses capital punishment, too. Counterexample: In Germany we have had id-cards since after the war. We abolished capital punishment in 1951 and have a working juridicial system that adheres to the rule of law. So maybe the US should also look at positive examples of countries having id-cards. Your comment was simply polemic.
[--- PGP key and more on http://www.root42.de ---]
The problem is already solved. DMVs also issue "state ID" which is valid for all purposes that a drivers license is used for.
A national ID doesn't solve any particular problem people have on a day to day basis.
I can tell you what a national ID will make worse: identity theft. Oh but wait you say - a national ID is highly verified and impossible to duplicate or forge. Never say never - a national ID will have forgeries. Except since everyone "knows" that a ID is not forgeable, those who will be the unfortunate victim of identity thefts won't be able to get off the hook.
A similar situation has happened recently. Newer model cars with immobilizers are "unstealable" - until they are not. There is a good Wired article about this:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.08/carkey.html
a choice quote:
"Since you reportedly can account for all the vehicle keys, the forensic information suggests that the loss did not occur as reported," the company wrote to Wassef, denying his claim. The barely hidden subtext: Wassef was lying."
Now imagine instead of cars we're talking about your identity. If your ID is not forgeable, then anything done with your ID tagged to it is clearly done by you. Now imagine these RFID IDs are in fact trivial to clone with the right equipment... now what?
In the end, what problem are we solving? I keep on hearing in the US the Real ID solves the issue of multiple drivers licenses from multiple states. But if that hole was plugged would it prevent terrorism? Probably not I'm thinking. Then what problem would it really help with? Tracking down and punishing people for trivial crimes will end up being the #1 application of these things.
Ho ho! It is to laugh! Have you tried getting a passport lately? The wait is on the order of six months. It's an enormous pain in the neck for something that in no way improves security at border crossings.
A note to the Department of Homeland Security: Terrorists can get passports too.
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
"The American RealID will collapse due to the lack of state support (14 refuse to implement, numerous states refuse to fund, not to mention the inevitable protests)."
What's funny and ironic about this is that the U.S. has had a National ID card for several decades. It's called a Social Security card. Just try to do something -- get a credit card, borrow money (any amount, any reason), get any form of insurance, get a job, get a driver's license -- without giving them your Social Security Number. In most cases it's impossible.
Belgium has compulsory national ID cards, but no death penalty in conformance with the European Convention on Human Rights.
I hope that refutes whatever it was you were trying to prove.
"My government (Germany) introduced biometric information into passports through the EU backdoor"
Eww. Why were they keeping their passports in there anyway?
which is totally what she said
"A note to the Department of Homeland Security: Terrorists can get passports too."
Yeah, but then they have 6 months to consider the error of their ways! Well, if they're Americans going to another country to commit terrification.
which is totally what she said
I'm just curious as to what bank allowed you to open an account without presenting identification in the US? At a minimum it is federally required for FDIC instutuion for taxation.
Also in the US:
(2&3) Typically for municipality services, identification is required to open an account. Not necessarily so if it's a corporation though (definately the minority) - thout they typically will to prevent unauthorized charges to propery owners.
(4) Most apartment complexes will require a credit and potentially a backround check to minimize liability. What you encountered by not having to show identification is not the norm.
Interestingly, the requirement is for a number, not a card. A random nine digit number is much easier to 'forge' or 'steal' than a physical card. By the time the crime is complete, the criminal is long gone. Illegal immigrants can get a job by providing the number to the employer, and it may take months for the mismatch to be recognized; if the name and ss# are a match, then it may never get recognized.
Identity theft is so common and easy because just about all it requires is that nine digit number. My mother's neighbor is a hardworking guy who for some reason has over a dozen credit cards and cell phones in his name all over the country, and several outstanding warrants for his arrest. HE'S done nothing wrong, but his number apparently was pretty popular for a while, and he has to bat clean-up on it on a continuous basis. He actually carries a card in his wallet that effectively says "I'm not the man you're looking for" to the police in case he gets pulled over for anything. In spite of that, it still often means a drive down to the station and waiting while higher-ups check out his story.
Sadly, the SS# fails as a security identifier because it was never intended as such; it was strictly supposed to be a primary key for identifying your contributions to the US Social Security system. In any security system, there should be at least a 'two-part' login process: who you are and what you know. The SS# is now being taken for granted as the 'what you know' part, and sometimes even as the 'who you are' part. Additionally, it's not a secret (you can't use a different SS# for each organization you give it to) and you can't change it.
Thought exercise: imagine that you're email address is your login and your ss# is your password for every site you visit on the internet; including your online banking. Now: imagine that one of the sites gets compromised.