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Cell Phone Encryption Exploit Demonstrated

Saxophonist brings us a story from Forbes about security researchers who demonstrated a new method for breaking the encryption on GSM cellular signals. The presentation was made at the recent Black Hat conference, and it's notable for the fact that the technique only requires "about half an hour with just $1,000 in computer storage and processing equipment." The researchers also claim to have found a faster method, which they intend to market for $200,000 - $500,000. Quoting: "Undetectable, 'passive' systems like the one that Muller and Hulton have created aren't new either, though previous technologies required about a million dollars worth of hardware and used a "brute force" tactic that tried 33 million times as many passwords to decrypt a cell signal. All of that means, Hulton and Muller argue, that their cheaper technique is simply drawing needed attention to a problem that mobile carriers have long ignored--one that well-financed eavesdroppers may have been exploiting for years. 'If governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?' Muller says."

153 comments

  1. because by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?
    Assuming I'm the person they're talking about instead of to...because my neighbors don't have anything interesting to say. Trust me, they're really strange and really boring. Anyway, for those of you wondering what someone could possibly say over a cell phone that's so intercept-worthy, some fancy banks require a key-press or auditory password to access balances and even move funds. You know, like in the movies. Some actually do that. And if you're going to say that it matches voice pitch and stuff instead of just the word, duh, press record on your laptop when they say it and play it back through the phone.
    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    1. Re:because by letxa2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'If governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?' Muller says."

      What a stupid comment. In other words, if some people are going to break the law, let's make sure everyone can. Good idea.

    2. Re:because by palegray.net · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's really a matter of publicizing the weakness to the point where manufacturers and network providers are forced to do something about it. Average people generally don't care about issues like this until they're really an issue.

    3. Re:because by butlerdi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, the pass phrases are generally use once and discard. They are generated on demand or pre arranged.

      --
      "If the King's English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" -- "Ma" Ferguson, Governor of Texas (circa
    4. Re:because by Dan541 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Anyway, for those of you wondering what someone could possibly say over a cell phone that's so intercept-worthy, some fancy banks require a key-press or auditory password to access balances and even move funds. You know, like in the movies. You talk as if phone banking is only in the movies. Millions of people access bank accounts this way myself included.

      ~Dan

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    5. Re:because by youthoftoday · · Score: 1, Informative

      In a capitalist society such as America, why should a private individual with a lot of money have fewer rights than the government with money?

      --
      -1 not first post
    6. Re:because by whyloginwhysubscribe · · Score: 1

      I work for a company which uses the voice-print technology and it actually won't let you do that, as the voice-print is altered every time you authenticate to stop exactly that happening.

      I don't work for PerSay - but if I did I'd tell them to put this back on their website:

      http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:71Fnb-hno7gJ:www.persay.com/news_10.asp+site:www.persay.com+recording&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

      Still - it is a valid point that you can bypass such things as 2 from 4 PINs using touch tones if you can listen in enough to your neighbour...

    7. Re:because by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do you have to give a pass-phrase though? Every bank I've seen gets you to set up a pass phrase but only ever asks you for two letters from it. If someone intercepts your phone call, it is going to be a long time before the bank asks that combination again, and most will telephone you after a few failed attempts and validate that it is you making them.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:because by mrbluze · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's really a matter of publicizing the weakness to the point where manufacturers and network providers are forced to do something about it. Average people generally don't care about issues like this until they're really an issue.

      Well, as you rightly say, most people don't matter in the grand scheme of things. At least that's how it can appear. But in oppressive countries, it's the occasional person in the occasional 'situation' where this stuff really matters, including (and especially) government interception. From that point of view, everybody matters, because if there are no trees (you and me), then there is no forest for fugitives to hide in. Never use a mobile phone, a land-phone, an unencrypted internet connection, etc. for anything that really matters. Same goes for the old fashioned things like avoiding public places and whatever else.

      Everybody should use as much encryption as they can manage - it's cheap insurance. If you want to make a difference without taking risks, that's the way to go. It means others who are braver and more able than ourselves can go on carrying on their work saving society, blowing whistles and so forth without getting their carotids slashed.

      Any encryption that is not complete from point of origin to target is meaningless (if you're trying to hide your communications).

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    9. Re:because by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Do you have to give a pass-phrase though? Every bank I've seen gets you to set up a pass phrase but only ever asks you for two letters from it. If someone intercepts your phone call, it is going to be a long time before the bank asks that combination again, and most will telephone you after a few failed attempts and validate that it is you making them. Nope I get

      AutoMessage: Please enter your personal access number. /me Enters access number
      AutoMessage: Now I need your 4 digit pin /me Enters Pin

      Its at this point that i get "Press 1 to hear your account balance" "Press 2 to make a payment"
      I have FULL access to my account via phone there are no humans involved just the pressing of buttons over whatever phone network you happen to be using.

      A VOIP solution that allows calls to the regular phone network will also work (in theory) regardless of the security or lack of.

      ~Dan
      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    10. Re:because by TheLink · · Score: 3, Informative

      Regarding government interception, GSM encryption is only from phone to station. At the Telco it's plaintext. So govs can (and probably do) listen to GSM phone calls. Should be common knowledge amongst telco people.

      So GSM crypto even if it was uncrackable is not very helpful if you're really trying to hide your comms.

      Someone I knew once claimed to have extra crypto on his GSM phone so that he could talk "securely" to other people similarly equipped.

      --
    11. Re:because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never been a fan of any "secure" service that makes me say a password outloud. Keypresses may not be as secure. But at least there's some level of "skill" required to determine a code from presses vs. hearing me say "Big boy" four or five times while the system tries to recognize it.

    12. Re:because by palegray.net · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can assure you, governments of any technical sophistication have been able to listen to your phone calls for a while now, whether they're encrypted or not. Unless of course you're using aftermarket bolt-on crypto solutions, in which case they're still going to get the info if it really matters.

    13. Re:because by fbjon · · Score: 1

      In that case anyone can eavesdrop and subsequently move all your money away. One time passwords, or possibly generated passwords is the only way to go.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    14. Re:because by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Lets just go with the middle ground. Let everyone listen, and make everyone a member of the government.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    15. Re:because by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And if you're going to say that it matches voice pitch and stuff instead of just the word, duh, press record on your laptop when they say it and play it back through the phone.

      That's not how voice verification technology works. If it did, it would be totally useless.

      Typically, voice sample are requested at random (out of a defined set - like the number 0 through 9) and sane engines look at how the phonemes are strung together when you say something, for example, in the middle of the phrase as opposed to at the end of the phrase. The engine knows about this because the enrollment process has you speak the phrase components in different orders several times.

      But what do I know.

      --
      Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
    16. Re:because by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In that case anyone can eavesdrop and subsequently move all your money away.

      Not really. What could you do with his telephone (or online) banking PIN? My credit union's online banking allows the following activities: Transfers between sub-accounts (savings, checking, etc), loan payments, bill payments, check images, statements and direct deposit adjustments (this much into savings, this much into checking, etc, etc).

      Nothing within my online banking would allow you to "move all of my money away". I suppose you could setup a payee in bill payer for yourself, but even at that my credit union wouldn't allow you to directly supply the ACH information -- they'd mail you a check -- and even at that it would take a few days to get the custom payee setup.

      Don't get me wrong. You could screw me pretty badly -- moving all of the funds from my checking account into savings would cause transactions to bounce if I didn't catch it.... But you couldn't drain my account and walk away with the funds for yourself.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    17. Re:because by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      The bank I'm with used to have one time passwords for business banking but they discontinued it because it was an inconvenience.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    18. Re:because by cytg.net · · Score: 1

      You forgot an ! infront of stupid

    19. Re:because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, I have a friend who is a Nigerian prince, in need of just a little help to release some funds.
      I'll just give him your account information so we can transfer his money into it, well all make a tidy sum in the end...

    20. Re:because by big_paul76 · · Score: 1

      Not really. What could you do with his telephone (or online) banking PIN?


      Um, I don't know if there's an equivalent system in the US, but up here in Canada, I can transfer money via the interac e-mail system.

      http://www.interac.ca/consumers/productsandservices_ol_emt.php

      So, um, yes, if somebody manages to get my username/password for my online banking, they can in fact, drain all my money in under 5 minutes. Now, that can only go to another bank account, and it can only be transferred to another bank in Canada, but still.
      --
      The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
    21. Re:because by russotto · · Score: 1

      Regarding government interception, GSM encryption is only from phone to station. At the Telco it's plaintext. So govs can (and probably do) listen to GSM phone calls. Should be common knowledge amongst telco people.


      Bingo. I supposed I'd be called paranoid if I suggested the government had dedicated rooms at many telcos where they can intercept whatever phone traffic they care to. But I bet they do.

      End to end encryption is a far better solution, but we'll never see it become mainstream.

    22. Re:because by KidKadaver · · Score: 1

      Nothing within my online banking would allow you to "move all of my money away".
      It might not be possible to personally take your money, but an eavesdropper certainly could pay one hell of a cell phone bill.
    23. Re:because by Jester998 · · Score: 1

      Totally agree in principle, but there are actually additional safeguards with the Interac tranfers.

      My bank places a limit of $1000/day on email transfers (I think there's an additional weekly limit as well), so the attacker would have to have continued access for a series of days/weeks to empty out an account.

      However, if the attacker has tapped into your communications, he knows when you're going on vacation and won't be around to check your accounts. :p

    24. Re:because by big_paul76 · · Score: 1

      It's funny you mention that... As I was typing, I decided to see what my bank had in terms of limits. And given I've never sent more than a couple hundred bucks via that system (friends family etc) I think maybe I'll have them drop that to $500.

      --
      The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
    25. Re:because by Jester998 · · Score: 1

      There's been a few times where I hit the limit and had to split transfers over 2 days but it wasn't much of an inconvenience. It still got the money there faster than mailing a cheque!

      I'm sure I could have called my bank and had them up the limit, but I'd rather have that additional layer of security, just in case.

    26. Re:because by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      There's some interesting equipment housed in the lower levels of 51 Peachtree Avenue, Atlanta, GA. I'll leave it up to the reader to deduce what building occupies that spot.

  2. Not too afraid by MrCrassic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While this is an extremely powerful re-discovery, I'm not that afraid of average Joe attempting to listen to my conversations, which are boring if anything most of the time. It would still probably take a reasonably quick computer and technical know-how to implement this kind of scheme on a usable scale. Plus, if the FBI and CIA already have the privilege to tap into my conversations, then the fear of security loss is already somewhat of a non-unique one.

    1. Re:Not too afraid by palegray.net · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While this is an extremely powerful re-discovery, I'm not that afraid of average Joe attempting to listen to my conversations Wait until Not-So-Average Joe decides to sell transcripts of your conversations as marketing data. Or maybe analyzes your conversations for keywords and extracts just those portions to blackmail you. Ever talk about hating your job? Ever cheated on your significant other? Ever lied on your taxes? The list goes on...
    2. Re:Not too afraid by Splab · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ever talk about hating your job?

      Yes often, even when at work. Its also no secret that I hate my top boss.

      Lying on taxes is pretty much a national trait around here (Denmark), so again yes - some of us have no worries.

      But I do despise the fact that someone can listen in on stuff, even though most of what we do is no secret, its still something that annoys me.
    3. Re:Not too afraid by WeeBit · · Score: 1

      I knew someone here would say it does not matter because my calls are not that important....

      Well what about the million or so out there that have plenty to worry about?

      scenario...

      job calls you discuss private business on the phone that you sure don't want a rival to hear.

      you call your bank to see how much cash is still in your account... many do on phone banking.

      you reveal a secret that could be used to blackmail you. (could happen so don't laugh)

      you reveal in conversation your whole family will be gone two weeks on vacation out of country. (robbery?)

      You have a stalker.

      your teens are home alone.

      Something else for you to consider is that even though most of the public doesn't care about this type equipment somewhere out there someone else is thinking the opposite reaction. This type of thing could be a gold mine to them. Some spammers spend thousands to make millions, so who is to say that this type of spyware would not be used in some illegal manner?
    4. Re:Not too afraid by Gendor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here in South Africa I haven't regarded cell phone calls as secure for quite some time. School kids figured out that if you dial the three-digit customer service number on your cell phone, and keep on waiting on the line a few minutes after the voice recording finishes, the following happens: It connects to (I presume) your local tower and you can hear the one side of random cell phone conversations. After a few minutes it switches over to another conversation. You can only hear one side of the conversation, but it proved quite entertaining for kids to listen in on conversations during school breaks (phoning customer service is a toll-free call). Luckily the cell phone company realized this and fixed the security hole after a few months.

    5. Re:Not too afraid by fmobus · · Score: 1, Funny

      Oh, you're Danish? Don't worry then, even if you neighbor could intercept your calls, they wouldn't be able to understand the meaningless, gutural sounds to which Danish evolved.

    6. Re:Not too afraid by Splab · · Score: 1

      Don't mod him down, its quite a funny video, even if its Norwegians making fun of us :)

      Parent does have a point, even within small countries like Denmark the local dialect can be hard to understand, if you drive from Copenhagen to Southern Jutland (around 200km away) the dialect changes so much it might as well be a different language.

  3. That would be awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine being able to listen in on your whole appartment building's conversations.

    It would be a dream come true.

    1. Re:That would be awesome by Yeff · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Way back when (1994) I had a scanner and listened to a few conversations of my neighbors. Turns out that if you don't know the person and what they're talking about then the conversations are extremely boring. People just aren't that interesting on the phone.

      --
      "Freedom Through Vigilance"
    2. Re:That would be awesome by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Scanner? We used to just use a Motorola flip phone and the scanning codes that were kindly built into it by the company. *43# etc

      Whenever the phone you were scanning moved from one cell to another you'd lose the signal but it would display on the screen what channel it had changed to.. in hex.. so you'd either convert the hex to decimal, enter that channel and pick up the conversation or you'd scan for another call.

      And yes, it was boring as hell.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:That would be awesome by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      Imagine being able to listen in on your whole appartment building's conversations. Mental note: If I ever decide to have an affair, I'd better make sure I don't use a GSM phone.
      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    4. Re:That would be awesome by jacquesm · · Score: 4, Funny

      message to your significant other: if he ever uses a non-gsm phone get the frying pan :)

    5. Re:That would be awesome by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > Mental note: If I ever decide to have an affair, I'd better make sure I don't use a GSM phone.

      If you were planning on using a CDMA phone instead, you should check what encryption is used. Most of the algorithms have been broken.

      CMEA is extremely weak and was broken in the late '90s.
      ORYX is also broken.

      My understanding is that CMEA was "patched" up into SCMEA and ECMEA but I don't know if anyone has broken them yet.

    6. Re:That would be awesome by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      CDMA is being shut down in Australia, so that should save a few people's hides, so to speak.

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    7. Re:That would be awesome by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Isn't CDMA inherently harder to eavesdrop on, though? Without knowing the codes that each handset is using, all you get is noise, and that's at a lower level than any encryption.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    8. Re:That would be awesome by robably · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Turns out that if you don't know the person and what they're talking about then the conversations are extremely boring. People just aren't that interesting on the phone.
      I had the exact opposite experience. I found other people's conversations fascinating, but within a couple of days I'd heard stuff that was so personal it made me realize I shouldn't be listening. Thinking about it, experiencing that at 14 probably led me to believe in people's right to privacy and anonymity today. It certainly led to me never buy a cordless house phone.
    9. Re:That would be awesome by Grampaw+Willie · · Score: 0

      you don't "decide" to have an affair. It happens when you least expect it

    10. Re:That would be awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee thanks, grampaw!

    11. Re:That would be awesome by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      From perusing the Wikipedia articles on CDMA and TDMA, it seems to me that in CDMA the base station has to somehow agree with the cell phone what pseudorandom code it will use, and it seems to me that that communication doesn't use CDMA (chicken-and-egg). So I wouldn't say that CDMA is inherently harder to eavesdrop on than TDMA, it's just a different challenge (with CDMA you have to intercept the code at the start of the communications between the phone and a new base station, with TDMA you have to synchronize on the right timeslots).

      Anyway, newer technology GSM networks (3G) often use some kind of hybrid CDMA/TDMA approach, it seems.

    12. Re:That would be awesome by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      you don't "decide" to have an affair. It happens when you least expect it At least that's what you tell the wife.
      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
  4. FIRST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    post!

    1. Re:FIRST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You failed it

  5. Forbes obviously missed Shmoocon... by acq3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    http://www.shmoocon.org/

    The presentation will probably be available on the Shmoocon website in the not too distant future. Forbes did the standard mainstream media muddling so check with H1kari for the real deal...

  6. Overkill for neighbours by Techman83 · · Score: 5, Funny

    why shouldn't your next-door neighbor? Considering how many mobile users seem to scream into the damn things this may almost be redundant! /joke
    --
    # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
    Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    1. Re:Overkill for neighbours by RuBLed · · Score: 3, Funny

      But my neighbors are speaking Klingon when they come out of the basement to talk in their mobile. How could this technology help me?

      They're also saying "ghob" out loud... also I think my other neighbors are raptors...

    2. Re:Overkill for neighbours by palegray.net · · Score: 4, Funny

      How could this technology help me? 1. Record conversations.
      2. Open subspace diplomatic channel to the Romulans.
      3. Sell the conversations as intelligence data.
      4. Profit!
    3. Re:Overkill for neighbours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who let the dogs out!

  7. There never was end-to-end encryption... by compumike · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are stories like this all the time, but tech people still have trouble convincing most users that end-to-end encryption is important. How is it that it caught on for the web (credit card payments over SSL), but still barely for personal communications (gpg, encrypted IM)? Even in the situations where it's easy to use encryption, many users still can't be made to care -- especially if it's not something enabled by default. Maybe just that those doing the sniffing are suitably quiet about it...
    --
    Electronics kits for the digital generation.

    1. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ya know, it *is* strange. Take, for example, Pidgin (formerly GAIM). There's about two dozen plugins for it. One of the plugins is Pidgin-Encrypt which does everything that you would expect (except possibly for some sort of certificate system) and is about as secure as ssh. Does it come with Pidgin by default? No. Is it enabled by default? No. Why not? Why is encryption still considered some opt-in alternative? Considering that it takes both parties to consciously choose to install this plug-in, the grand total of people who use it is about 10.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It didn't "catch on" for the web, it was mandated by the Federal Government (in the US at least). See PCI (Payment Card Industry) for a little quick and dirty education on the matter.

    3. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps you should pay attention to Off-the-record messaging. Other encryption methods either fail to provide authentication, or plausible deniability.

    4. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by jimicus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How is it that it caught on for the web (credit card payments over SSL), but still barely for personal communications (gpg, encrypted IM)?

      That's a very good question.

      One idea I've heard is that when SSL was first developed, the web was in its infancy and nobody really felt happy about the idea of sending their credit card details over it. The fact that it was relatively easy to eavesdrop on a computer network was fairly well known. This was no good to anyone who wanted to do business (OK, porn sites) over the web, and so SSL solved that problem by providing reassurance that nobody was eavesdropping.

      The telephone system, on the other hand - that's been around so long that it's familiar technology and relatively few people are aware of how insecure it is. If you think GSM is bad (it's actually not that poor, and 3G introduces AES encryption), consider your land line. No encryption whatsoever and an analogue signal (so no computer equipment or specialised unusual codecs required to tap) between you and the telephone exchange.

    5. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Don't forget, some people want their messaging both on the record and encrypted.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    6. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by p0tat03 · · Score: 2, Informative

      How is it that it caught on for the web (credit card payments over SSL), but still barely for personal communications

      Because someone is losing something tangible (i.e. money) when fake credit card payments go through. The users didn't demand it, credit card companies did, to prevent skyrocketing fraud losses. Users themselves have never truly demanded encryption - how many online shoppers do you know that are savvy enough to look for proper SSL encryption before typing in their credit card number?

    7. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by hitmark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      automation, pure and simple...

      the browsers come pre-equiped and will use it when ever a url starts with https rather then http.

      also, the encryption isnt used to verify that whoever is sitting in front of the computer is who he or she claims to be, for that you have third party stuff like pads of one time codes, code generators and similar.

      for im and mail on the other hand one have the, in the eyes of the non-techie user, laborious process of generating and exchanging keys, and making sure that the keys belong to the person one wants to communicate with.

      only way i see this change is if we could turn the mobile phone into a digital key carrier. meet someone, exchange keys pr phone just as one would exchange phone numbers, im/mail address and similar, and so on.

      or maybe the social network sites should allow one to upload ones public key just as on enter above numbers and addresses?

      basically one have to find a way to bring the exchange of public keys into the fabric of ones social interaction. sadly i dont think that will happen any time soon...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    8. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      There are stories like this all the time, but tech people still have trouble convincing most users that end-to-end encryption is important. How is it that it caught on for the web (credit card payments over SSL), but still barely for personal communications (gpg, encrypted IM)? Even in the situations where it's easy to use encryption, many users still can't be made to care -- especially if it's not something enabled by default. Maybe just that those doing the sniffing are suitably quiet about it...
      --
      Electronics kits for the digital generation. Its the Tech people who are to blame not the users.

      I didn't get any say in the GSM protocol. I want end to end encryption but there is nothing a can do even if I did hack my phone to support SSL the network wont accept it. As for IM there is not point in using encryption with msn messenger because no one else can make use of it which of the thousands of available PlugIns should I use? and how can I convince my contacts to use it?

      The people who implement these standards should be responsible the whole point of a standard is that everyone uses the same so leaving it up to the users to customise their own unique solution will never work.

      ~Dan

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    9. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Credit card transactions = money IM conversations = mostly *really* mundane stuff.

    10. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      especially if it's not something enabled by default.

      You've said it yourself. SSL "just works" w/o requiring the user to mess around with any plugins

    11. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are stories like this all the time, but tech people still have trouble convincing most users that end-to-end encryption is important.

      I think -- and I have no scientific basis for this, but it'd an interesting area of study -- that the answer could be that humans simply haven't evolved to understand the threat. If you live in a small pre-technological tribe then it's easy for your brain to figure out when you're being watched, when you might be being watched, and when you're definitely not being watched. If you're in an enclosed room, your brain says no one is watching or listening to you. And that was true for the first few million years of human brain development. It has only changed in the last 100 years, and seriously changed only in the past 50.

      Rich.

    12. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      I like the idea of training people to exchange keys as they would phone numbers, except keys *should* expire. I don't change my phone number every year, but I should change my private key.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    13. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      The telephone system, on the other hand - that's been around so long that it's familiar technology and relatively few people are aware of how insecure it is.

      Not anymore, thanks to the Bush administration illegal wiretaps^H^HTelephone Security Awareness Campaign.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    14. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

      But (and I'm truly naive here), has there ever been a documented case of people stealing CCNs by sniffing? It's always something else. Chicken and Egg, I know, but still something to think about. If I wanted the numbers, I'd find an easier way to do it (although I guess finding the right person at an ISP to bribe could be pretty easy).

    15. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by StreetStealth · · Score: 1

      OTR, despite its name, does nothing to prevent either you or your fellow conversant from keeping a record of the transcript. The point is that it's on your records only and no one else's.

      --
      Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
    16. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it come with Pidgin by default? No. Is it enabled by default? No. Why not? Why is encryption still considered some opt-in alternative?


      Because it is illegal in some countries (France, Russia) and the developers don't what their users to go to jail because they unknownlingly used some software that had it enabled by default.
    17. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      consider your land line. No encryption whatsoever and an analogue signal (so no computer equipment or specialised unusual codecs required to tap) between you and the telephone exchange.

      Well, FWIW, you can detect a bug like that on your POTS line by monitoring the voltage on the line. It won't help you with a bug placed at the exchange/central office, but that vulnerability exists regardless of the technology (POTS, GSM, VoIP, etc) that you are using.

      More amusing then deliberate bugs is crosstalk on old/lousy wiring. I never had POTS hooked up in my old apartment building (cellular only) but I could plug a phone into the jack and listen to other peoples conversations/DTMF/dial tones. Some of them were hard to hear (guessing the pairs were fair enough apart to reduce crosstalk) but most of them came in loud enough to be understood quite clearly -- and I suspect it would have been child's play to hook up an amplifier to boost the weak signals to a usable level.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    18. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by hitmark · · Score: 1

      well if one could get all mail apps and webmail services to creating a, or importing a existing, key pair as part of setting up an account, one would be one step closer.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    19. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Close. CC companies don't cover fraud losses; merchants do.

    20. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      OTR, despite its name, does nothing to prevent either you or your fellow conversant from keeping a record of the transcript.

      I watched the OTR presentation video (about 1 hour long). The point of OTR is that with its deniable authentication, it allows ANY of the listeners to fake a conversation (a shared encryption key is sent after each message, meaning anyone that reads it could fake it afterwards).

      In other words, it proves nothing. Anyone could have faked it.

      PGP on the other hand, uses certificates, which means that you can't deny what you wrote. This is the very reason why certificates are good for online contracts.

    21. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      you can detect a bug like that on your POTS line by monitoring the voltage on the line.
      I call bullshit

      provided the bug isn't trying to draw power from the line and has a nice high impedance input stage I very much doubt you could reliablly detect it.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    22. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by imipak · · Score: 1
      Several reasons for the different takeup rates for PGP, S/MIME etc vs. SSL:
      1. There are far few servers to authenticate than there are peers, by a couple of orders of magnitude at least.
      2. Running an SSL web server is significantly harder than running a plaintext port 80 one; whereas there's practically no difference on teh client side (checking the lock icon is still pretty rare (actually checking the ssl certs etc is a very minor sport.) Using PGP or S/MIME is kind of analogous to running an SSL webserver.
      3. Much more money to be made from practical (==secure) ecommerce than there is to be made from secure messaging.
      Interestingly corporates interest in secure mail transport (TLS, SMTP-auth etc) and I think S/MIME or PGP-type solutions are starting to trickle into production here and there a little faster than they've been trickling for the last decade.
    23. Re:There never was end-to-end encryption... by imipak · · Score: 1

      also, the encryption isnt used to verify that whoever is sitting in front of the computer is who he or she claims to be, for that you have third party stuff like pads of one time codes, code generators and similar.

      As Bruce Schneier pointed out, there's an important distinction between authenticating the transaction and authenticating the user. For ecommerce, the merchant needs to know that the card is real (for values of 'real' defined by PCI and similar standards.) The CC companies only care about the transaction; the transaction will complete successfully even if it turns out to be fraud, from the PoV of the CC company, because in that case it's the merchant who pays... and CC still get their money.

      It's often forgotten that SSL/TLS provide authentication mechanisms as well as a crypto-bottled pipeline between client and server. In the common case, the client is supposed to check the credentials of the server via X509 certs. Hardly anyone uses client certs except in corp environments, where people can theoretically be trained about what they need to do with them. You can buy porn with a stolen CC, you can't work on the company network without the right cert, as well.

  8. Obligatory by Travoltus · · Score: 3, Funny

    'If governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?'

    Because the Government hates the competition?

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
  9. GNUradio is also up to GSM cracking by erlehmann · · Score: 4, Informative

    and i'll bet they won't charge anything.

    check out some movie about the GSM state of security [1] and mod me informative. ;)

    [1] http://chaosradio.ccc.de/camp2007_m4v_2015.html

    1. Re:GNUradio is also up to GSM cracking by Nocterro · · Score: 1

      Done and done. I'll charge that to your account.

      --
      [clever sig]
  10. For those three people ... by BorgDrone · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This sucks, for those three people still using GSM.

    What about the security of UMTS ?

    1. Re:For those three people ... by excelblue · · Score: 1

      GSM is still the dominant standard in many nations. For example, in the US, you're stuck with either GSM, CDMA2000 (1xRTT), or IDEN. There are no other services, except for maybe the almost nonexistent 3G that is being set up. The problem is - the hack is available now, there's many places that still use GSM, and an upgrade in infrastructure will take some time.

    2. Re:For those three people ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Newsflash - most of the world outside the US uses GSM.

    3. Re:For those three people ... by BorgDrone · · Score: 1

      No, most of the developed world already has a 3G infrastructure. Only technological backwaters like the US still use GSM.

    4. Re:For those three people ... by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Newsflash - most of the world outside the US uses GSM. And a large number of people in the US are on analogue.

      ~Dan

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    5. Re:For those three people ... by FireFury03 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, most of the developed world already has a 3G infrastructure. Only technological backwaters like the US still use GSM.

      3G coverage in most of the developed world is significantly worse than GSM - your 3G phone will drop back to GSM mode in poorly covered areas. Not to mention that most of the undeveloped world uses GSM almost exclusively.

      (I also hesitate to point out, for risk of starting a flame war, that a certain recent over-hyped phone only does GSM)

    6. Re:For those three people ... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Except I haven't see a 'poorly covered area' in about 4 years and I've been around a bit. You can get standard 3G even in the middle of the countryside in this country and UMTS in any built up area (which is why laptop 3G dongles are so popular now.. it's way more ubiquitous than wifi, generally cheaper, and quite often faster - giving a constant 3.5Mbps wherever you are, rather than on some wifi point hanging of someones's 1mb DSL line).

      The idea that 3G is somehow rare appears to be a US afflction.

    7. Re:For those three people ... by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't you mean 2.3 billion people? I mean, over 80% of the world's cell phones? The world doesn't end at your doorstop, you know?

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    8. Re:For those three people ... by no_go · · Score: 1

      Acording to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS), UMTS and GSM aren't frequency and interface compatible.
      That implies that operators have to deploy equipment and buy frequency licenses for UMTS.
      And since:
        - There is a lot of installed GSM base stations (which must be amortized)
        - GSM frequency licenses have been paid / are being paid (and did cost quite a lot,
            which must be amortized)
        - UMTS broadband traffic and "simple" voice traffic co-exist (and I would bet the demand does fill available capacity in most metropolitan locations).
      I would say that in most locations where there is UMTS there is also GSM traffic.

      No to talk about developing and undeveloped nations where the cellular network is basic (read no frills, only voice and SMS), for which it is not cost-effective to deploy UMTS and advanced functionality.

      I would think that GSM will not be going away anytime soon...

    9. Re:For those three people ... by Matt+Perry · · Score: 1

      And a large number of people in the US are on analogue.
      That's highly unlikely considering that mobile phone companies are decommissioning their analog networks this year. The largest US mobile providers turned off their analog service on Monday.
      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    10. Re:For those three people ... by BorgDrone · · Score: 1

      No to talk about developing and undeveloped nations where the cellular network is basic (read no frills, only voice and SMS), for which it is not cost-effective to deploy UMTS and advanced functionality.

      I think it would be quite cost-effective to skip GSM there and go for UMTS straight away. This way, you can roll-out both voice and internet access at the same time. It's way more cost effective to put up one UMTS tower to provide both services, especially if there is no existing infrastructure that can be reused (like in the 'developed world' with DSL en cable modems).
    11. Re:For those three people ... by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      And a large number of people in the US are on analogue.
      That's highly unlikely considering that mobile phone companies are decommissioning their analog networks this year. The largest US mobile providers turned off their analog service on Monday. There was talk about the use of analogue in the US only a week ago. Why do the analogue networks even exist in 2008? If no one uses them it would save a bit on the power bill to turn them off.

      ~Dan
      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
  11. not stupid after all by erlehmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

    knowledge of this can *only* have some impact if you tell everyone about it. just look WEP, better encryption is the way to go.

  12. Coming soon, try it yourself... by kanweg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unless their patent application is kept confidential by the government for reasons of national security, it will be published within 18 months. You'll be able to learn how the trick works from it (if you're an expert in the field and you cannot make it work, no patent should be granted). You're not allowed to exploit that commercially, of course, but at least you can have fun and pull a few pranks with it. You could claim you're psychic.

    I'm wondering how you ever could tune in to the correct conversation, with thousands of mobile phones transmitting at the same time.

    Bert

    1. Re:Coming soon, try it yourself... by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm wondering how you ever could tune in to the correct conversation, with thousands of mobile phones transmitting at the same time. GSM phones identify themselves to the network using a unique International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI) #.

      This number is usually printed on the phone somewhere under the battery cover & is retrievable from the phone's software.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Coming soon, try it yourself... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Informative

      IMEI is not transmitted cleartext. In general conversation even the IMSI is only transmitted once for billing purposes and then obfuscated for the rest of the conversation (a temporary IMSI is generated from the real one which identifies the conversation without giving away any private information).

      Breaking a conversation would mean calculating KI somehow, which is a 128bit key locked in the SIM and not retrievable at all. UMTS is even more secure (provides protection against MIM attacks, more keys, etc.) and AFAIK there's no theoretical attack against that, so you don't need to worry if you're using a modern phone (with one notable exception of course).

    3. Re:Coming soon, try it yourself... by J+Isaksson · · Score: 1

      As for example; http://cracktohack.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-to-clone-gsm-sim.html shows, "not retrievable at all" is a bit overstating, at least regarding GSM, but at least this attack requires (a few hours' temporary) physical access to the SIM card to get Ki.

    4. Re:Coming soon, try it yourself... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try to dial this on your GSM phone:

      *#06#

    5. Re:Coming soon, try it yourself... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      You're not allowed to exploit that commercially
      Actually, you can't exploit it non-commercially, either. A patent blocks any non-patentee and non-licensee from even creating something covered by a patent, regardless of whether it's for private use or not. Hell, using a patented invention that was made without the patentee's permission makes you an infringer. For example, if I made one of these machines for fun, I'd be infringing. Then, if I gave it to my friend for free, even if he thought it was a legit product he was receiving, he could still be sued for patent infringement.

      Of course, as long as you don't get caught making/using it, you're in the clear.

      Not legal advice, not your lawyer, etc.
    6. Re:Coming soon, try it yourself... by jamar0303 · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? Ki is easily extracted from most modern SIM cards- that's how the first iPhone unlocks (pre-software unlock) worked.

      --
      OSx86 FTW
  13. Here's your answer. by palegray.net · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'If governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?' It's called common decency, something that's clearly fading away in our society.
    1. Re:Here's your answer. by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, I was thinking about that in the previous story about medical information.. in that it isn't the security of the storage system that makes medical information confidential, it is the respect that people show for others. If you have medical staff that don't care about the confidentiality of medical information, then no amount of locks will keep it confidential.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Here's your answer. by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      If you have medical staff that don't care about the confidentiality of medical information, then no amount of locks will keep it confidential. Absolutely right. It's like the old quote says: locks are only designed to keep honest people out.
    3. Re:Here's your answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much like my cell reception, now that I think about it. Maybe it's time to give Sprint a try. CDMA FTW!

    4. Re:Here's your answer. by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      It's called common decency, something that's clearly fading away in our society.
      Why don't you ask black people or women if they'd like to return to the "era of common decency." Or the Japanese. Or anyone who's not of northwestern European heritage.
  14. Let him be... by Gription · · Score: 3, Insightful

    'If governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?' Muller says."

    What a stupid comment. In other words, if some people are going to break the law, let's make sure everyone can. Good idea.

    Let him sit on his couch eating Cheetos. He has the right to be happily oblivious as every personal right slowly disappears because no one is complaining (too busy eating Cheetos!) while the technology that makes it possible keeps getting cheaper and more powerful.
  15. Re:Counter decryption! by snoyberg · · Score: 1

    Well done troll. NoScript to the rescue again! (For everyone's info, that links is MyMinicity, with a rather "colorful" city name.)

    --
    Thank God for evolution.
  16. also, if you know german by erlehmann · · Score: 1

    tune in to chaosradio 56 "GSM Hacking" [1]. (although i doubt that german-speaking slashdot users don't know of chaosradio) [1] http://chaosradio.ccc.de/cre056.html

  17. Privacy the least of our concerns by EdIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My first thought about this was privacy and the government. Obviously.

    From my understanding though, this encryption is certainly not applied over the whole transmission, meaning endpoint to endpoint. Just the handset to the tower.

    The government does not actually need to crack this encryption, or even intercept transmission between handsets and towers. They can just order digital wiretaps, which cannot be detected. Speaking of which, I have always been amused when people state they you can just buy hardware to detect that too. The location of the handset is easily determined, and in most cases the identity of the user. The government already has the ability to access all of this information with the cooperation of the telecommunications companies anyways. With Telco Immunity being pushed, there won't even be room to dispute it anymore.

    So not trivializing the serious issues with our privacy and the government, they are still the least of our concern here.

    What strikes me as very problematic is that this opens up a whole new "market" for identity theft, banking fraud, etc. I do quite a lot of business over the phone, and just about every single company uses the touch tones to gather data. Capturing the the numbers by listening to the tones is trivial. This can be done quite easily by software and hardware.

    So if all the popular company phone numbers are known, and all the data being sent to it by customers can be recorded, this presents quite a security problem. With the right amount of equipment you can start capturing all sorts of data being sent over the phone. It will only be a matter of time before you gain enough information to compromise someones identity.

    I am not worried about my neighbors, not worried about my government, but I am very worried about the stranger interested in the fact I called Washington Mutual.

    1. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Funny

      The government does not actually need to crack this encryption, or even intercept transmission between handsets and towers. They can just order digital wiretaps, which cannot be detected. Dude, they didn't say which government.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I was obviously speaking about the US, and GSM networks are deployed in a lot of countries.

      I would still say that governments are the least of anyones concern, as far as cell phone security. A government most likely has the ability, note I did not say should, to wiretap any phone communication. Land line or wireless, does not matter. This ability can be granted to them by various laws, and they don't have to doing it illegally.

      They also have the ability to obtain records from corporations. So all in all, a government does not need to crack encryption from a cell phone to a tower, since they already have a great deal of influence on all the 3rd parties that control the communications mediums, not to mention the storage of data.

      This is similar to MITHM attacks on SSH, in that the attacker gains valuable knowledge of the 2 parties transactions that can be used for their own personal gain. That is what I worry about.

    3. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, you're still not getting it. The US government often likes to listen to cell phone conversations in, say, oh, I don't know, Iraq? Syria? A lot of other places where GSM is the cheapest technology available. Some governments like to do the same thing inside the USA. There aint no getting a wiretap when you're an agent for a foreign government.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    4. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Okay. I guess I am really confused.

      So you are saying that foreign governments may be spying on communications inside the USA?

      I am actually far far less concerned about that. What could a foreign government gain by knowing all of my information? My medical records, banking information, bank accounts, etc. Are they going to attack me as part of some strategy?

      That is something the US government has to be concerned about on my behalf. If another government started to do that, it would not be secret for long. I am sure there would be some sort of response by the US government.

      As for as communications by US government officials, I am SURE they are not protected by the simple encryption on GSM phones. They tend to have their own handsets that have end to end encryption being performed. In any case, I am sure the US government already has measures in place to mitigate those risks.

      As far as the US government cracking into cell phone communications in foreign countries, I am sure that was being done a long time before this article. I don't think they are doing it to take advantage of citizens arbitrarily, but to some sort of intelligence gathering end. The NSA has resources that far exceeds even the loftiest dreams of these blackhats with their 200k-500k proposal.

    5. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by dkf · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you're still not getting it. The US government often likes to listen to cell phone conversations in, say, oh, I don't know, Iraq? Syria? A lot of other places where GSM is the cheapest technology available. Some governments like to do the same thing inside the USA. There aint no getting a wiretap when you're an agent for a foreign government. While this is indeed true, I'd be more worried about private-sector people from Russia or Nigeria.

      Though in my case, if they listened in what they'd find out is that "I'm On The Train", and "I'm Going To Be A Bit Late". Earth-shattering stuff!
      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    6. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume that it is private-sector? In general, Russia and China not only give cover, but actual assistance to those that will crack western systems. Conservatives everywhere should be happy in that we are going back to the old days; Now that Russia and China have money, they are taking us back to a cold war (though I believe that china never really left it).

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by hibji · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your position is basically a "who cares if i have nothing to hide" attitude. Bruce Schneier has an excellent writeup about the value of privacy here:

      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/the_value_of_pr.html

      Basically, privacy is a right, not a privilege. It is not something that should be easily given away.

      To answer your question, the idea is that other friendly governments (UK, Australia) do the eavesdropping on the US's behalf. The US does the same for them. They then share the information with each other. No laws were violated, and this is completely "legit".

      Not sure if you've heard about echelon, but much of this global surveillance system is already in place today.

    8. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing the point that he is trying to make. My reading of what he wrote comes across as, "I'm not worried about the government stealing my bank account information. I'm worried about the local Russian mob associated cracker." It isn't that he doesn't have anything to hide, or that the government can already see it. He's worried about those who don't currently have access to the technology gaining access to it.

    9. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by EdIII · · Score: 1

      That is not even close to my position. I have a hard time understanding how you get a "who cares if I have nothing to hide" attitude.

      If you read the article AND my posts, I am specifically talking about encryption applied on communications between cellular handsets and the towers. I am stating, that in that SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, that the governments are the least of our concerns.

      Let me explain, again. I'll do it a little more carefully.

      There are 3 considerations here:

      1) Privacy.
      2) Security.
      3) Legality of intercepting and decrypting the transmissions.

      I am stating that Privacy from the GOVERNMENT is not the PRIMARY CONCERN with respect to ENCRYPTION BEING BROKEN ON CELLPHONES. Now I am only making a comment about Privacy in this one specific situation, and make no comments about it in ANY OTHER SITUATION. I made no comments about Privacy being a right, or a privilege, its effect on our societies, its importance, etc.

      Let's just talk about the cell phones.

      The government, and privacy from the government, is not the primary concern here ("the least of our concerns") since the government can access the content of the transmissions without even intercepting the transmissions between cell phones and towers. Here is my reasoning:

      1) Communications started on cell phones traverse many different communications mediums or infrastructures.
      2) The encryption being talked about in the article, is being applied to GSM transmissions between cellular handsets and the towers.
      3) PAST the towers, the communication enters other systems, or parts of our communication infrastructures, that the US government already has nearly unlimited access too.

      So the government is in fact irrelevant to GSM encryption. It's like Wile E. Coyote (Super Genius) being thwarted by Bugs Bunny with a Door standing in the middle of the desert. All he ever had to do was step a foot to the right or left, and the Door was defeated.

      I also never made a position clear on whether or not I even support the fact that governments have created laws to make it legal to intercept communications AT ALL. I am not talking about governments remember?

      So since the government is effectively a non-issue here, what are the real concerns?

      Security.

      It is criminals in general that have a lot to gain by intercepting these communications since they can gather a lot of information that can used to commit crimes against ordinary citizens. It is identity fraud, banking fraud, etc. that I believe will be the primary concern.

      Let's face it. If any government wants to ruin your life, they don't need to break the encryption on your cell phone to accomplish it. They can acquire all the information about you that they need through other sources, since they already had the ability from day one.

      It is the common criminal, even a technically adept one, that does not have the same abilities and will benefit greatly from these methods.

      I hope you understand what I am trying to say now.

      P.S - For the RECORD, and you can see it from my many other posts about Privacy, Anonymity, and Governments, I STRONGLY FEEL that PRIVACY and ANONYMITY is a basic human right that MUST be RESPECTED. It is with a great amount of Irony that I respond to "who cares if I have nothing to hide", when I use that in my own posts.

    10. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Thank You.

      I thought I was being clear about my statements, and that anybody could understand what I was saying.

      The article was talking about encryption on cell phones being broken, that's it.

    11. Re:Privacy the least of our concerns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hence the risk of the official interception and surveillance systems being suborned for non-official intercepts... (that's the amazing Greek Vodaphone network backdoor hack scandal... amazing stuff and frightening for those of us in corporate security...

  18. Re:Counter decryption! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Try it again. I fixed the link.

  19. CCC by norkakn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How does this compare to the CCC crack? Can it do all of the encryption standards?

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8955054591690672567&q=CCC+GSM&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

  20. GSM telephone banking by 23r0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...but a very big problem is the fact that people, i.e. myself, are using GSM for banking. The security of phone banking 100% relies on GSM encryption. You are just identifieing yourself via PIN, and that's it - you are fully authenticated - unlimited access to the account! This is unusable now. No skimming needed...

  21. Been there, done that... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    Got the Nokitel code.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  22. Lets look at some facts.... by threeturn · · Score: 4, Informative
    This is a good hack, and impressive work by all involved, but its rather limited in its application. It only works against the GSM A5/1 encryption algorithm. While there is a huge amount of A5/1 equipment out there it's a ~30 year old algorithm that was designed to run on battery powered equipment from the late 80s.

    New GSM equipment already supports A5/3 which is still secure. I think the main impact of this hack is going to be some sensational headlines and a big push to make A5/3 universally available.

    1. Re:Lets look at some facts.... by threeturn · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Just to emphasise the point:

      that their cheaper technique is simply drawing needed attention to a problem that mobile carriers have long ignored--one that well-financed eavesdroppers may have been exploiting for years Clearly the carriers haven't ignored this problem - they have produced a better encryption algorithm in the form of A5/3. The real problem is that the governments hold the carriers over a barrel. If the encryption gets too good then the algorithm is subject to all kinds of export restrictions which makes it very difficult to use in a global standard like GSM.
    2. Re:Lets look at some facts.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manufacturers of both handsets and infrastructure components have introduced a new cypher, while the carriers are sitting on their asses, doing nothing as long as it doesn't increase their bottom line. The government doesn't care about this, because their wiretaps are just that and are not concerned with the encryption used over the air. Most of the US' export restrictions for crypto have been lifted, but even if they hadn't been, most of the GSM equipment isn't manufactured in the US.

    3. Re:Lets look at some facts.... by lsw · · Score: 1

      New GSM equipment already supports A5/3 which is still secure. yes and it also supports backward compatibility to communicate with old cellphones and (but need to confirm this) in case of a large number of users the BTS drops the encryption.
      --
      Ironclad Security only exists when you have Chuck Norris on the shift. Do we really have to discuss this? (Plutonite)
    4. Re:Lets look at some facts.... by zix619 · · Score: 1

      Once again, governments don't need to crack the encryption algo, the conversations are clear once beyond the tower in operator's network. This means with any legal intercept they can listen to all your conversations whatever encryption algo you use at radio level. i believe you refer to application level security, i.e. you use your own security application to encrypt your conversation. this is different from A5/3 or any other GSM encryption algo

  23. I thought this had already been done? by Noryungi · · Score: 2, Informative

    Being able to crack the GSM A5/1 encryption with thousands of US dollars (instead of millions) is nice, but the encryption scheme itself was cracked long ago, and by Prof. Shamir (of RSA fame), no less.

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
  24. Gaining delicate corporate information by Mushur · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Imagine listening in to the CEO of a Fortune500 company in the days preceding financial reports. You may gain very valuable information. As we saw last week, it is not considered insider trading if you hacked your way to the data. Also competing firms could use this to be one step ahead, and potentially can ruin another firm.

  25. So? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Ok let's say Iraq has a major intelligence operation in the US. Now let's say they listen in on cellphones. You think they are going to listen in on mine? Why the hell would they waste the time? I don't have anything to say that would be of interest to them. I don't have access to any military secrets, I don't have any knowledge of what our government is doing that you can't find out on CNN. I'm not of any interest to them.

    So what would they do? Listen in and steal my bank information? Ok, except that would be world class retarded. You spend all this time establishing good cover and getting set up in your target nation, and then blow it to steal a few grand from someone? Remember that good tradecraft for a spy is invisibility. They don't want to do anything that would draw any attention to themselves. They want to be just Joe Random Citizen that does nothing wrong that nobody notices. Well they start stealing bank accounts or something like that, they'll immediately be getting attention and it won't be long before they get caught.

    So even if a foreign intelligence agency is listening to my calls, I just don't care. It isn't useful to them, and it isn't harmful to me. However a random criminal, well then that's a problem. They will use the information to steal my money.

    1. Re:So? by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know there are people in the world other than you right? And most of them use cell phones and don't really think about security. People like CEOs of companies that are about to go public. People like stockbrokers who place orders that change the direction of the market. People who having an affair right now and work in some shit-kicker job for a senator now but may one day be in a position of power. The list goes on. Basically, if you can't think of a better use for cell phone hacking than stealing credit card numbers or banking logins, then you're just not trying.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:So? by kent_eh · · Score: 1

      So what would they do? Listen in and steal my bank information? Ok, except that would be world class retarded. You spend all this time establishing good cover and getting set up in your target nation, and then blow it to steal a few grand from someone? Maybe stealing it from *one* random dude is stupid, but what about cleaning out the bank accounts of several hundred random people simultaneously (after spending some weeks/months collecting data)?

      Odds are several of those folks would have more money than you, and the score could be fairly significant.
      Plus it would cause a certain amount of chaos and distrust in the banking system. Does that sound like something that a terrorist group might be interested in doing (especially in conjunction with some other event)?
      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
  26. "We don't use phones," he says. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, soon on the news: "Phones are for old people".

    (Ok, I thought about "only terrorists use phones", but that one is of course old news!)

  27. No Life by GottliebPins · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    It's sad that 40 year old men living in their parents' basements have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to listen in on phone calls of men and women who have normal interesting lives. But I guess that's easier than getting dates. ;)

  28. David Hulton = H1kari by CousinVinnie · · Score: 2, Informative

    Looks like he gave the same (or longer) presentation at Black Hat.

    --
    http://cuz.cx/
  29. Also this RFID / Smart Chip Hack by tringtring · · Score: 1

    At the same Black Hat conference, a chap presented on how easy it is to hack a smart-chip enabled credit card - "As part of his presentation Wednesday, Laurie asked for someone from the audience to volunteer a smart card. Without taking the card out of the volunteer's wallet, Laurie both read and displayed its contents on the presentation screen--the person's name, account number, and expiration clearly visible" - http://www.news.com/8301-10789_3-9875961-57.html

  30. Has been possible for a while anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    New Scientist described a practical, fairly low budget attack in 2002. By use of selective jamming, it's possible to drop a handset off the cell, then capture its IMSI (and thus IMEI) when it re-registers. Using these stolen credentials, send a spoofed degraded signal to the base station to mimic poor reception; by design, GSM then switches to A5/0 i.e. turns encryption off(!) because an unencrypted signal needs less bandwidth. If you don't have a specific target to eavesdrop on, you could presumably lower the budget further by just monitoring somewhere with naturally bad reception ...

    The article stated this technology was commercialised as the "IMSI catcher", but it seems that they've updated it to instead mimic a base station, which "forces" handsets to use it by virtue of being the strongest signal then selects A5/0 mode. (The fundamental GSM flaw here is that the phone must authenticate to the network, but not vice versa.) This new method is probably due to network complaints about the interference to everyone the first method causes.

  31. iPhone by kellyb9 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Among the phones included clearly can't be the iPhone, otherwise the title would be, "iPhone encrpytion exploit demonstrated!!"

  32. huhhh? by Vexorian · · Score: 1

    if governments or other people with millions of dollars can listen to your conversations right now, why shouldn't your next-door neighbor?
    I mean really, I am only worried about the government and people with millions of dollars being able to listen my conversations, the next-door neighbor is not as scary as them. I am not sure why they place the neighbor as the worst case scenario of privacy lost...
    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  33. There is a company that makes cell phone equipment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    www.drti.com

  34. Fabricated recordings by dj245 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Its a FAKE!

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  35. Anyone else think this article was a bit odd? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few things struck me as odd about this article - particularly the entrepreneurial nature of the people making the exploit. It says that they are patenting it and planning to sell dedicated hardware for $200-$500k. It seems to me that under US law this technology would be illegal (under the same laws that make it illegal to decrypt encrypted satellite TV without authorization...always seemed strange to me - you should always be able to listen to any electromagnetic waves passing through your backyard - but not surprising that industry got something like that passed). An illegal technology cannot be patented. Legitimate police don't need to listen in to GSM communications - they get a wiretap directly from the phone company. That leaves the NSA (or their foreign equivalents), who operate outside of areas where they have legal jurisdiction - and I've got to believe that the NSA has been doing this for years if these guys just stumbled on it.

    That pretty much leaves the market for this as organized crime, or sleazy private investigators who don't worry much about the law . But, I guess this was a Black Hat convention...

  36. secure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, does this mean that cdma is the apple OSX of wireless protocols? That is, secure only because it's not profitable enough to exploit it.

  37. This is news to me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was under the impression for years it was a trivial feat for just about anyone who wanted to 'decrypt' GSM conversations. GSM was intentionally broken from the start combined with common poor security practices in choosing keys I was under the impression building a radio to collect the data was the biggest and most expensive challenge to easedropping on radio signals.

    I wonder if its possible that this article is really just a case of the submitter embellishing facts to make themselves look better.

    Personally I'd stick with bluetooth hacks :-) Less laws to break that way.

  38. Cellphone encryption was a joke anyway by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    No matter how good their cipher, it is only between the phone and the edge of the telecom provider's network. The provider had your plaintext, and laws like CALEA require them add security holes to their network. At a minimum, the government had access to your plaintext. Beyond that minimum, who the fuck knows who else had access to it. Your neighbor might have been listening anyway.

    Security cannot be left to the provider. Treat them as a hostile network.

    Many (most?) phone calls are between people who have met in real life, so there's no reason your phones shouldn't have exchanged public keys. Of those, many are between people who meet in real life frequently (your wife, your friends, etc), so the phones can probably exchange a few gigabytes of random OTP now and then. These communications should be easily securable. Then bolt Diffie-Helman on top of that (after you have a MitM-free authenticated link) if you want forward secrecy.

    All that is required, is generic (though low-latency) network access, and phones that are running software that is targeted at serving the users' interest, rather than someone else's.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  39. Never had a cellphone last more that 3 months... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this why I've never had a cellphone that lasts more than 3 months before I start having problems? I just changed the SIM chip or swapped phones every 3 months, I have the same problem with Skype though but only have to change the incoming number not the hardware too.

  40. Good use by crbowman · · Score: 1

    So if I combine this technology with what I learned in a previous Slashdot article on insider trading, I might conclude that it could be very profitable to go around Wall Street listening in on cell phone calls and trading on that information would not be a crime?