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Toshiba Paid Off To Drop HD-DVD?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the murky-dealings-of-international-business dept.

TripleP writes "Was Toshiba paid-off to concede the HD battle? There are some signs that may point to this as a direct result of the ended format war. Reuters has reported that Sony has agreed to sell its Cell and RSX fabrication plants in Japan to Toshiba. The WSJ is reporting that is is a joint venture in the form of 60% Toshiba,%20 Sony and %20 Sony Computer Entertainment Inc."

40 of 229 comments (clear)

  1. Who cares by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who really cares. At least the war is over. I was tired of the format war. Neither format really had a real reason to choose one over the other. They were both pretty evenly matched. I just hope that they don't try to kill off DVD now. I'm perfectly happy with DVD, and don't feel like spending more money just to watch movies.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    1. Re:Who cares by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Blu-ray has higher storage and (I think) slightly more DRM, while HD-DVD has no region codes. I'm sure a lot of people won't be affected by region codes, but those of us who get international stuff would have prefered HD-DVD.

    2. Re:Who cares by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, the latest 3 layer HD-DVD had 51 GB, which is just ahead of BluRay. I'm not sure if any players ever supported 3-layer, but from what I know, they actually had it working. Both formats had pluses and minuses. I don't think either player had a really compelling reason to buy one over the other.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Who cares by Gr8Apes · · Score: 5, Informative

      BD requires AACS and ROM-Mark, IIRC. BD players won't play home burned disks, only commercially pressed ones, due to the Rom-Mark and AACS requirements. BD has region codes. BD lacks (still) many of the features already present in HD DVD. BD also costs about twice as much, even before the firesales. And last but not least, BD has BD+, essentially a back-door into your player that can brick it if some content provider's BD+ code decides your player doesn't match up with their expectations.

      To be fair, BD also had more space. (Yes, had, the proposed 51GB triple layer HD DVDs evened that score as well, even though BD could have layered one more on top of that, but that's a never ending game of one-upmanship.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:Who cares by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also more expensive, and doesn't really result in higher quality video or sound though. So to the end user, they get the same experience, but it costs more.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    5. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A few years back someone demonstrated a 200GB BluRay disc. It had many many layers (after some googling, it looks like it has 8 layers), so just like you I don't know if it was supported by all players, but it existed.

      This is why I've always favored BluRay. From my limited understanding of the subject, I can see that it is a little bit more modern of a technology, so it has higher potential.

    6. Re:Who cares by IrquiM · · Score: 3, Informative

      No players supported the format. No discs where ever made - it was all on paper, so you could say that since there actually has been made BD100 discs, HD DVD was only ~50% of the size

      Also, the 3rd layer couldn't be used for anything else than data storage. It had no value as a multimedia layer.

      --
      This is blinging
    7. Re:Who cares by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      BD requires AACS and ROM-Mark, IIRC. BD players won't play home burned disks, only commercially pressed ones, due to the Rom-Mark and AACS requirements.

      Even more reason to wait a few years before going to Blu-Ray. Wait a few years and we will have our players with 'debug' menus that were accidently left it :)

      The only place I am tempted to use Blu-Ray is for my home computer, since the extra storage makes for a great back up solution.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    8. Re:Who cares by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Ongoing_development

      That's a good explanation or the capabilities of the two formats.

    9. Re:Who cares by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The space is not meaningless. The Transformers HD-DVD ran out of space for a lossless audio track and was released without one.

    10. Re:Who cares by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      HD-DVD is cheaper to implement Not exactly. The players cost about the same amount - the expensive part is the blue laser which is used in both. Toshiba had been heavily subsidising their players to counter the PS 3, but it looks like that will be ending soon. More to the point, you could convert a DVD factory to manufacture HD-DVDs more cheaply than converting it to BD. This isn't a huge advantage, however, since the market for DVDs is still huge (and growing) so no one has DVD plants that they want to convert. New plants cost a similar amount for both formats.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    11. Re:Who cares by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "And not just the last mile, the entire internet isn't set up for it."

      The internet is up for it. It's only the last mile that matters. There is more than enough regular bandwidth to serve all the popular movies and music (and approaching all the digitally encoded movies and music...) if you posit multicast and ISP caching.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    12. Re:Who cares by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There will never be an open source Blu-ray player legal for use in the US (though "legal" open source DVD and HD DVD players are of questionable usefulness given there were no HD DVDs shipped without DRM, and the vast majority of DVDs were shipped with DRM.) Blu-ray makes AACS mandatory on pressed blue-laser media, so the DMCA effectively prohibits it.

      I cannot fathom why DRM is mandatory, I know some Blu-ray partisans have even gone into a state of denial about it when I've brought it up before, but that's what the situation is.

      Our best hope, ironically, is Microsoft throwing their weight around a little. They have a lot of reasons to be pissed about the end results of the HD war. Vista was screwed up mostly because of the secure path initiative, probably the biggest thing to be fucked up as a result of Microsoft trying to get Hollywood on-side. If they were to omit secure path in Windows 7, the AACS LA would either have to liberalize the AACS license, or else see virtually everyone play Blu-ray discs using unauthorized players.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    13. Re:Who cares by Wdomburg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Modern has nothing to do with it. Both formats are based on identical 405nm blue-violet lasers. The difference in capacity comes from BD using a wider apeture, which allows greater storage capacity but moves the data closer to the surface. The trade-off is higher manufacturing costs since existing production lines need to be retooled and discs require an additional protective coating.

      Proponents of the HD DVD format (myself included) argue that because both formats have ample capacity for a full length feature film in 1080p/24 with lossless audio the trade-off wasn't worthwhile. For most titles the additional spaces simply isn't used or is wasted with inefficient encoding; for example, the majority of titles that contain lossless audio forego compression entirely because the BDA made lossless compression (TrueHD or DTS-MA) optional instead of mandatory like the HD DVD spec. And since the overwhelming majority of standalone players don't implement them the titles which do use advanced compression will simply default back to DD 5.1 sound (i.e. no better than bog standard DVD).

      The additional capacity makes it more attractive as an optical storage format for computers, but I question whether that's particularly important these days. Now that USB hard drives are so cheap the consumer market is largely shifting that direction for archive and backup. Software distribution is likely to remain CD and DVD for a good long time, since very little software requires more space and very few computers had BD drives. File transfer is likely to remain a mix of DVD and (increasingly) flash storage. USB drives are cheap and far more compact and convienent than any optical media.

      Home video mastering is a potential market as well but given that the capacity of AVCREC (i.e. Blu-ray content on a standard DVD) is about two hours of high definition video, I suspect most of the market will stick with the media that costs a nickel a disc instead of the one that costs twelve dollars a disc. :) Prices will certainly drop as time goes on, but there's a chicken and egg problem here - prices won't drop with mass adoption, mass adoption won't happen without a price drop.

      (By the way, yes - TDK created a prototype of a 200GB disc about two years ago. No existing player supports them and there's been no indication that they're pursuing commercial production. They also showcased a 100GB disc at CES 2006 but have yet to bring anything to market. Hitachi has also demonstrated 100GB media and stated last quarter they were working on bringing it to market "soon" and is also working on 200GB but has yet to create a prototype.)

    14. Re:Who cares by Znork · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A few years back someone demonstrated a 200GB BluRay disc.

      I recently saw a 1000GB SATA-RAY disc demonstrated. Actually I even saw it for sale. Slightly thicker than the plastic, but I can live with that.

      Seriously tho, judging from the development, sale and prices of ordinary multilayer DVDs, I expect the new optical formats to remain permanently impractical and inferior as a storage medium as compared to simply buying more harddisks. They haven't been designed as data storage, they've been designed with the primary purpose of gathering shelf-dust in stores and at home. With the rapid spread and expansion of USB drives and memory sticks I doubt they'll manage to gather as extensive use as backup and transportation medium as the older optical formats.

    15. Re:Who cares by Lehk228 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      hard drives are NOT suitable for long term backup, they just don't do well enough sitting idle for years. i know that BD does include physical protection from scratches, if it also includes specs for chemical resistance it could very well be a good archive format.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  2. Surprised? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This was known or rumored already for weeks and weeks, even prior to the WB announcement IIRC.

    Along with the $120M paid to Fox at the last minute to get them to stick with BD, and the reputed $400-500M WB received, I'm not shocked at all.

    Sony bought the win in the format war, and that alone would be enough of a reason to not buy into the inflated BD format. (Inflated as in cost)

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    1. Re:Surprised? by JordanL · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find it remarkable that people honestly believe a company like Sony can hide payments of over a half billion dollars fromt heir financial statements to shareholders.

      Sony won. Get the fuck over it.

      --
      FanFictionRecs.net
    2. Re:Surprised? by blair1q · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They sell something worth $11.38 billion for 10.75 billion, but never booked it at 11.38 billion in the first place.

      Sony shows $10.75 billion in cashflow, no appreciable decrease in assets, and covers it with profits from its new hi-def disc monopoly.

      90% of its shareholders are fund, anyway, whose managers won't care as long as their funds still sell, and since SNE is only going to be 0.8% of any one fund, the effect of the graft is a tiny splash buried in the roaring surf of the market.

      Sony bought your future. Get the fuck over it.

  3. money flow by MassiveForces · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Toshiba was "paid off" by Toshiba deciding to buy a risky venture for $835 Million... what?

  4. in other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Were they paid to make the same decision that any businessman in the world would have made? Well, maybe the Sony guys picked up the check for the sukiyaki this time, but that's about it.

  5. Re:PS3 = Still Sucks by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the format war over, that may just be enough to make the PS3 really attractive. It worked for the PS2.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  6. Standards should be set by engineers, not PHBs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The problem with the world is we've let the wrong people set the standards. Business should build to standards, not build standards to produce psuedo profits.

    What going around these days is crap, and it's come right back at us!

    1. Re:Standards should be set by engineers, not PHBs! by foniksonik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      BD isn't a *standard* the way you describe it. Just as CDs are not a *standard*. They are simply a defacto media format for distributing commercial data. Anyone can use them or not for distributing data but there are plenty of alternatives.

      Until there is a societal need to have 30GB of data sent out to everyone in a nation or state... on a physical disk media, there simply is no need for a *standard* such as this. It's purely convenience and entertainment. Yes there is a lot of money to be made but no one's life or standard of living is at stake.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    2. Re:Standards should be set by engineers, not PHBs! by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So where do standards come from if it isn't new products developed by businesses?

    3. Re:Standards should be set by engineers, not PHBs! by IceFox · · Score: 2, Funny

      So KDE or Gnome? We sure know how to choose standards alright.

      --
      Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
  7. Re: This is old news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This move is part of setting up a new joint venture between Toshiba and Sony that will be in effect next fiscal year (from 1. april 2008). They allready operate a similar joint venture today, where Toshiba owns 51% and Sony 49%. But since the current joint venture deal expires this fiscal year (31. march 2008), its just a continuation.

    So this has nothing to do with the lost HD DVD battle. It was actually announced back in october of last year :

      http://www.eetimes.com/rss/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=206800618

  8. Re:PS3 = Still Sucks by Nick+Fury · · Score: 3, Funny

    THIS IS SLASHDOT MAN!!!! Your title should be PS3 == Still Sucks. GAH!!

  9. Someone must be really pissed off ... by MattGS · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... that HD-DVD is dead. With all those articles claiming "shady business practices" that led to Blu-Ray winning the format war. I don't care. At least it's over. Yes, I would definitely have prefered no region codes but the end of the format war is a victory for the consumer in any case. And yes, I know that having multiple options to choose from basically means more freedom for the consumer - but what good is this freedom if you had to buy multiple players in the end just to be sure that you would have been able to watch your favourite movie? There would always have been "exclusives" for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. I, for one, am glad that this is over.

    So now please just stop those "Blu-Ray only won because they cheated" articles. If Microsoft *really* wanted to push HD-DVD over downloads what do you think they would have done? They would have shoved it down our throats as well. And our rectums just to be sure. That's just how these things go. It's a dirty business. Liars, thieves, backstabbers, greedy bastards. We all know that. Now let's just be glad that *they* paid for the war and not us.

    Well at least not all of us. I am very sorry for those who bought HD-DVD players and feel cheated but come on, early adopters should damn well know the risk. Especially since it was obvious that sooner or later one format would bite the dust.

    Disclaimer: I might not be totally neutral since I've wanted to buy a PS3 for quite some time now and Blu-Ray winning was the final reason for me to go for it. But if the format war would have continued I would have waited a while longer I guess.

  10. Apologies for a somewhat offtopic post... by Enleth · · Score: 4, Funny

    But what, for the $(DEITY)'s sake, is going on with this damn "it's"!? It's the THIRD TIME in the past 24 hours and hell knows which in the past few weeks that the editors can't spot such a basic, common mistake. I'm not a native English speaker - not even a near-native - and I can see them, hunderds of slashdotters see them, they look just silly, if not discrediting, yet they are still there. Maybe the submission system should highlight every "it's" in red for the editors reviewing the stories, just in case it's a mistake, or something like that?

    --
    This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
  11. Incredibly stupid headline by wronzki · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sony supposedly paid off Toshiba by making Toshiba pay $835 million for production facilities that Sony would still be able to use (as part of the joint venture)? I sure hope Sony never tries to pay me off for anything. Oh, and the deal was made in October (just the price was made public now). And TFA (yes, I read it) never even suggested there was a tie between this and the death of HD-DVD. It mentioned it to provide some context for the companies' current positions but never implied that there was a link.

  12. Re:PS3 = Still Sucks by DrXym · · Score: 2, Informative

    The PS3 was attractive before (wifi, free networking, browser, bluetooth support, swapable HDD, AVC/H264 playback, DIvx etc. etc. etc.). It is a great console and a great multimedia player. Being one of the best players of the defacto HD video format certainly can't hurt it any.

  13. Dvd isnt going anywhere anytime soon by voss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Reasons for DVD staying around for a long time...

    1) There are 500 million dvd players versus maybe 12-15 million blu-ray of which 10 million are ps3
    2) For most people for the time being, DVD is "cheap and good enough"
    3) Cheapest blu-ray $250, cheapest dvd player $18

    1. Re:Dvd isnt going anywhere anytime soon by Enahs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, you hit the nail on the head there; most movies just aren't high-def quality even if they're scanned in at a high resolution. Until studios start using HD equipment, or start springing for the process used for the classic Star Wars trilogy, people will feel a little ripped off.

      It's equivalent to early DVDs, though. Remember getting some of those early discs and seeing excessive film grain? That was the first thing I thought of when I got my HD DVD player. I've seen the same thing on other peoples' Blu-Ray players as well.

      If you're a movie junkie and have to have high def right away, by all means go right ahead. If you don't like staring at crappy transfers, though, you ought to wait.

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    2. Re:Dvd isnt going anywhere anytime soon by ovideon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I heard exactly the same reasons used as justification for why DVD players will never overtake VHS players.

      Price differences drop over time, especially when the only real differences are a laser and a bit of software.

  14. This is old news by rickward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The agreement to sell the plants to Toshiba was made back in Oct/Nov 2007. It was one of the things that IMHO prolonged the format war, because it really looked like Sony was giving up on their flagship platform and taking greenmail. I remember distinctly thinking that maybe I should bite the bullet and get an HD DVD player because of that.

  15. I care, I admit to owning a HD-DVD player by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but the point is that I made my choice because HD was being price competitive to the old DVD format and Blu-Ray wasn't even trying.

    So now we have a standard. Big deal, Blu-Ray/Sony isn't trying to compete with DvD and unless other makers join in I doubt it will come down anytime soon. Plus as others have posted BluRay has all sorts of issues with drm/restrictions/etc...

    at least with HDDVD I could play the freaking movie when I wanted to...

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  16. Yes and no! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    additional DRM was optional? Yes and no:

    BD+ optional? Yes. But it's still an extra layer of DRM we now have to live with. And with HD DVD, AACS was also optional. With Blu-Ray, AACS is MANDATORY (Most recent PowerDVD switched to profile 1.1, and won't play AACS-less movies anymore!)

    Nevermind HD DVD also:
    -had no region codes
    -didn't need bullshit profile updates, 1.0 to 1.1 now, and 2.0 soon
    -supported all codecs out of the box (TruHD and DTS MA support not optional)
    -didn't need BD-J updates
    -often had a plain old DVD compatible layer (so the same disc will also play in the car/bedroom or such -- i'm not getting a blu-ray player for the car anytime soon, nor buying the same movie twice for that, nor reencoding them)
    -cost far less (even before price cuts, and sony is also losing money on PS3 sales)
    -from what i've seen, the titles played faster (damn slow BD-J crap, damn slow players, etc) -- it can take seen several minutes of wait to play a Blu-Ray disc... (HD DVD used simple html-like markup, with free dev tools/full docs and all)

    The *ONLY* advantage Blu-Ray had was more disc space, which is unnecessary -- just look at the DVD9-sized x264 reencodes from many groups out there... They look as good as the retail disc to me (on a fairly high end TV, and I'm not blind either). On a 25GB disc, that would still leave you with 14GB left for extra audio tracks and extras. From a computer storage/backup standpoint, that DOES make Blu-Ray better, but as for a entertainment/video format, not.

  17. Re:From the people by Boycott+BMG · · Score: 2, Informative

    You seem to be confusing Sony/BMG and Sony Corporation. It wasn't Sony that installed the rootkit on CDs it was Sony/BMG. Sony/BMG is 50/50 owned by Sony and Bertelsmann with most of the decision makers (at the time) being from the BMG side. It isn't too much of a surprise really, given than BMG had a very crappy reputation previous to the merger, even for a record company. Sony does hold some blame being a major shareholder, but the ultimate decision was not theirs. If you insist on boycotting Sony, you should at least be consistent and also boycott anything from Bertelsmann as well.

  18. Re:PS3 = Still Sucks by Brad1138 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Out of the 4 PS3 models so far, 20, 40, 60 & 80 the 40 gig is the only one that doesn't play PS2 games. The 20 & 60 have a built in PS2 "emotion engine" and play PS2 games perfectly. The 80 gig model (also 60 gig pal version) uses software emulation and currently plays ~55% of PS2 games without problem (check here), the other 45% have problems of some sort or another, although future software updates may increase compatibility. Here is the Wiki link, explaining it all.

    --
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people