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VW Set To Release Diesel Hybrid
SUVs_SUCK writes "It's official — Volkswagen is unveiling a hybrid to challenge the mighty Toyota Prius. And not just any hybrid, but a diesel-electric hybrid it says will deliver 69.9 mpg. Auto Express says the Golf hybrid will be offered for sale in Europe by the end of next year. No word yet on when we might see it in the US."
Don't forget it's a diesel
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
US and Imperial gallons vary significantly, 70mpg in imperial is 58 mpg in US gallons.. still quite good.
A couple of thousand bucks ($ or Euros) still buys a lot of fuel.
But will it run biodiesel?
We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
The current 1.9 TDI BlueMotion S does 62.8 mpg anyway, if we're talking Proper Gallons instead of the US ones. Which I'd expect a German company to be doing.
All the nasty, difficult to dispose of and full of toxic chemical batteries aren't improving that value by a hell of a lot, then.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
The modern, efficient diesel engines (pump-nozzle or common-rail injection) usually don't get clearance for biodiesel from their manufacturer. One bad batch of the stuff and you can kiss the engine goodbye, which usually comes with a four-digit bill attached to it.
To answer my own question, I followed the link in TFA to the original report. Where it specifies 83.1mpg in Proper German Gallons.
So that's actually quite a difference, then.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
That's not true. Quite a few modern engines are factory certified to run at least on E85. Try running your (modern) diesel engine with E85, and you don't even need a bad batch to kiss it goodbye. It'll pretty much kill it as soon as you try to start the engine.
Modern diesels are fine with BD. The main issue with running BD was on older engines with rubber fuel lines that the BD would dissolve, leading to clogged injectors and damaged fuel lines. But you can buy a VW diesel and run BD20 in it with out violating the warrenty. You can run BD100 in them just fine, but since BD isn't quite as standardized as PD they will not honor the warrenty if there is a fuel related problem and you've been running anything over BD20. In fact, the new ULSD fuel has lost a good deal of it's natural lubricity. Running 20% BD, 80% ULSD will actually get you the lower emissions of the ULSD and the lubricity of LSD.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
As soon as Dick Cheney's pacemaker seizes-up!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
"No word yet on when we might see it in the US."
We won't. The United States has long hated diesel cars. I can't think of a single domestic automaker that has a diesel car. And the number of imports is *very* limited. When you can find one, you will not receive any discounts, no special offers apply to them, and the dealers will avoid making you a deal on the price. On top of that, it is not always easy to find diesel. In the Chicago area it was a complete pain to find a station that sold diesel for my old Mercedes. I was thankful that there was one near my home, but the next nearest one was four towns away.
I'd love to see this type of car around here. I get sick and tired of listening to my friends tell me how they are so proud that their new, spartan, unimaginative, boring, uncomfortable Toyotas, Hondas, and Fords get 30mpg on the highway. Although I do love watching them flip out when I show them how my 24 year old, 5000 lb, loaded with bells and whistles, diesel Mercedes sedan gets 38mpg on the highway.
Sigh. I don't know when we're gonna "get it" over here.
I've thought about buying a Prius, but they lack the massive quality problems and terrible fit & finish that come standard with every Volkswagen model.
Now I can save the planet even more: on the days it's in the shop for warranty repairs, it will consume no fuel!
Heh... That would be "Low Sulfur Diesel" and "Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel" which represent 500ppm and 15ppm sulfur content respectively.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
I will, and I'm an '05 Golf TDI owner who's enjoying about 43 MPG today. I'm an efficiency geek - always loved that diesels did more with less than gasoline engines. I can't wait to use the same tech in my car that's used in locomotives - that REALLY appeals to the kid in me.
Its my understanding that in the US starting with 08 models the metric for MPG is changing and for the most part its driving the official mpg down quite a bit. In other words, if your current car gets X mpg by the old standards, a car getting X mpg in 08 is actually significantly more efficient.
So which metric is being used?
This could have been the perfect way to bring back the old-school VW Bus design which was shown a couple years back in Detroit. Like bringing back the VW Bug, VW could have brought back their cool bus design, but with an eco-friendly power plant. (sigh)
A) Can I use biodiesel? B) Can I install a propane injection system like a normal diesel? That could put milage well over 100mpg if you could.
It's about time. The very first hybrid I ever heard about was a VW diesel prototype. IIRC that was back in the 90s, and it was basically an electric car with a diesel generator built in.
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You cannot wash away blood with blood
The United States has long hated diesel cars.
I don't think that's entirely true. GM screwed it up for everyone else by their half-assed conversions of gasoline engines to diesel around 1979 - broken crankshafts, cracked cylinder heads, etc. resulted from not adequately reengineering the main components of the Oldsmobile 5.7L V8 and 4.3L V6 (used in front wheel drive A-body cars).
The Mercedes diesels have always been reliability legends and sold well in the USA through the 1980s. There are still a lot of W123-chassis diesel models running around. VW diesels seem well regarded in the USA too.
In the US pickup truck marketplace, diesels are seen as ultra-reliable high-torque powerhouses. A full-size pickup with a diesel engine gets significantly better fuel mileage than my gasoline-powered mid-size Dodge Dakota (I have seen mileage as low as 9.9 MPG in city driving in bad winter weather). Problem is, diesels are seen as ultra-reliable high-torque powerhouses and so the diesel pickup engines available are all overbuilt, for the people who apparently tow ocean liners across the country or something. The Cummins 5.9L diesel 6-cylinder engine was a $6000 option by itself, and there is no light-duty diesel engine available for normal people.
I can't think of a single domestic automaker that has a diesel car.
Well I guess it depends on what you consider a "car". Chrysler currently sells the Jeep Liberty with a 2.8L diesel engine which according to reviews gives superior performance and much better fuel economy than the 3.7L gasoline engine, and all three of the big three (GM, Chrysler, Ford) sell pickup trucks with diesel engines (although they are huge trucks).
With the current fuel costs, there is definitely a market in the USA for efficient vehicles, but people aren't willing to give up performance (remember the 48HP VW Rabbit diesel? I'd hate to try to merge into expressway traffic in one of those) or move to much smaller vehicles (utility and the perception of safety).
I think with the modern diesel technology that cuts the noise (although I love the diesel clatter myself) and cleans up the emissions, and fuel economy that rivals or surpasses hybrid gasoline cars (without making the car into an expensive science-fair project on wheels), the time for diesel cars in the USA has arrived.
Putting moderation advice in your
The Prius is made uneconomically by Totota to buy market mindset, hence the build quality etc., and for that reason you might want one (it's a bargain). But the VW hybrid most likely will be the same in the first release, so is probably worth waiting for.
Especially because of the dirty litle secret they really do not want you to know. Diesel is much safer in crashes because it is so much denser, unlikely to form explosive mixtures with air. As well as producing less CO2, it is less likely to fry you.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
what happened? a bug hit the windscreen?
It's funny because it's true. My TDI gets great mileage, but god does it suck compared to Japanese reliability.
I know all about the Mercedes Diesels from back then. They are reliable for sure but they are slow. Especially when combined with 4 speed transmissions with not enough low gearing. They accelerate like a tourtise. A lighter car with the same engine probably fairs well like the normal VW TDI models of this day in age.
In previous /. discussions of hybrid cars, I've seen claims that diesel hybrids were unlikely since the hybrid system wouldn't bring much of an advantage to a diesel car, because diesels scale their fuel consumption at low engine output (partial or no load) better than petrol cars. All you'd need would be a start/stop system. I'm looking forward to a proper test of this car against its rivals (including e.g. a BMW diesel with their 'efficient dynamics' package).
A hybrid diesel makes a lot of sense to me. Diesels already get great mileage, but slow acceleration makes them much less fun to drive. An electric motor should provide much better acceleration, while the diesel's great constant-speed efficiency is perfect for running a charging system. A diesel/electric hybrid seems like a much more natural combination than the diesel/gas hybrids the car companies have been selling. By the way, I live in Colorado where more pick-up trucks use diesel than gas, apparently, so there's plenty of diesel around.
"We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."
Indeed, euro quality is up, and asian quality is down for cars on the US market today. Just read any automotive magazine on the newsstand today.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Diesel-electric locomotives have been used by railroads since the 1920s, and have proven to be extremely practical devices by using the diesel engine to drive alternator, which in turn provides power to traction motors on the wheels. Although this configuration appears quite a bit more complex on the surface, it completely eliminates the need for a mechanical transmission, and offers greatly improved reliability and efficiency. Virtually every diesel locomotive today operates in this fashion.
Although they're not strictly hybrids, as there is no regenerative braking, several locomotives which incorporate batteries and regenerative braking are in development, and promise to cut emissions by 50% and reduce costs by up to 20%. If these claims turn out to be even remotely accurate, the next generation of railroad locomotives will all almost certainly use such a design.
It's easy to see how this can all extend to cars. Although Americans for some reason have a strong aversion to diesel cars, they've proven to be extremely popular, efficient, and reliable in Europe. A true diesel-electric hybrid is naturally the next step.
If we can work out a viable energy storage mechanism (better batteries/supercapacitors/flywheels) and completely de-couple the diesel "power plant" from the mechanical drivetrain, we can come very close to achieving "optimal" energy efficiency in a fuel-burning vehicle. The electric engine must be fast and responsive enough to run at all speeds, and the diesel engine only kicks in to recharge the vehicle (and does so running with a predetermined "optimal" throttle)
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
The VW diesels already get better freeway mileage than anything else for sale in the US - Japanese hybrids included. But yet diesels don't sell in anything other than trucks at any appreciable rate in the US.
And if you are asking why, you just need to look back to the 1970's - when the US big three so royally screwed up the application of diesel engines for sedans that many American buyers would never consider them again. Those were cars that got poor mileage, belched out soot that nearly forced you to repaint your house, and had horrendous reliability to boot. And don't forget about the noise, either.
Unfortunately, it appears that the same anti-diesel people from the 70's have risen to be the CEOs at the big three in the current decade. We know that all three are making diesel sedans - and selling them well overseas. The ford focus and dodge caliber are just two examples of small vehicles made by US auto makers that are available as diesels in other markets.
So really, whats the point of making a diesel-electric hybrid? Are there that many people outside of this country that think its a great idea to lug around a trunk full of batteries?
I know I am not alone in saying I'd be happy to buy a diesel sedan from the big three if they would wake up and sell one here.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
don't the polo diesels already in production get like 74 mpg?
lose != loose
The guy down the street has an old Mercedes diesel. He uses electricity (coal power) to keep it warm at night. His parking space is an oil slick. The exhaust is sooty.
One thing often forgot about diesels is how long the engines last. I'm talking 80,000 miles to break them in.
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> I know all about the Mercedes Diesels from back then. They are reliable for sure but they are slow. > Especially when combined with 4 speed transmissions with not enough low gearing. They accelerate
like a tourtise.
Must depend on the version. I had a '79 300SD with a turbo diesel that was fine. The only time it seemed slow was when climbing mountain passes in colorado. Other than that it was better than your average car. Not *fast* - but certainly more than anyone needs.
And I've driven VW turbo diesels - passats and jettas from the last ten years - and thought that they had very good acceleration and were very fun to drive. Really, at this point I don't think there's any noticeable difference between gas and diesel ownership for most people - except fuel economy.
It's a love/hate relationship. They do build 'em to last exactly *one* warranty cycle, don't they...
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Easy: it is much more feasible to lug around huge banks of batteries in a locomotive.
Diesel-electric locomotives don't lug around batteries. The diesel-electric system serves the purpose of a transmission -- a non-trivial problem when distributing that much power.
For years, my father drove an '81 Rabbit diesel. He averaged 55 miles to the gallon, and that was a mix of both city and highway driving. If I remember correctly, that engine had ~45 Hp and ~90 ftlbf of torque. So how is an additional couple of miles per gallon all that great when you have to include in all the weight and complexity of the hybrid stuff?