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Why OldTech Keeps Kicking

Hugh Pickens writes "In 1991 Stewart Alsop, the editor of InfoWorld, predicted that the last mainframe computer would be unplugged by 1996. Just last month, IBM introduced the latest version of its mainframe, and technologies from the golden age of big-box computing continue to be vital components in modern infrastructure. The New York Times explores why old technology is still around, using radio and the mainframe as perfect examples. 'The mainframe is the classic survivor technology, and it owes its longevity to sound business decisions. I.B.M. overhauled the insides of the mainframe, using low-cost microprocessors as the computing engine. The company invested and updated the mainframe software, so that banks, corporations and government agencies could still rely on the mainframe as the rock-solid reliable and secure computer for vital transactions and data, while allowing it to take on new chores like running Web-based programs.'"

23 of 339 comments (clear)

  1. Is it really "old" tech? by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I.B.M. overhauled the insides of the mainframe
    Uh, did they replace the insides with something old, or something new? Duuhhh.
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    1. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by langelgjm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the point is that the idea of the mainframe is old, and many of the naysayers predicted that once smaller computers became affordable, they would replace the centralized mainframe model.

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    2. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by omeomi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As is the radio. I'll never understand why people think Television should have killed off the radio. Radio is still around for one major reason: It's hard (and usually illegal) to watch TV while driving. If anything is going to kill radio, it's the advent of the podcast, which in a lot of ways is close enough to the function of radio to be a real threat.

    3. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So shouldn't the article be about how poor our prediction skills are rather than about how we cling to old tech? In the mainframes case, we cling to it because the concept was updated and still represents the most economically efficient solution to the problem.

      The article may as well be asking "Why do personal automobiles keep kicking?". Because they work, and they solve they still solve the problems that they are meant to solve. And when a new problem crops up, (fuel prices/pollution) the solution isn't to get rid of the car, it is to redesign it to address the new concerns; just like IBM and other companies did with mainframes.

    4. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why migrate unless you absolutely have to. Migrations should be approached with extreme caution, and if the suppliers of your old hardware can mitigate if not outright eliminate this, then why would you go to some other platform? IBM has done what its major corporate customers want, it has permitted them to continue running their tried-and-true software while gaining the advantages of newer technologies.

      In the PC world, we're used to revolutions on the desktop every few years. That's the sort of model guys like Apple and Microsoft have relied upon to keep them going. But when you're dealing with infrastructure that in many cases dates back to the 1960s, the idea of incremental change in hardware and software is extremely appealing and quite logical.

      Having just done an upgrade to our accounting software this morning, and going through a number of small but still very real headaches, I can appreciate why the guys managing a major bank's information systems is damned glad that IBM does things the way they do.

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    5. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by Grave · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What car do you have that by merely pressing a few buttons (or turning some knobs), you can listen to podcasts without any extra technology? The beauty of radio is that it is always there, and it's always updating (ignoring the repetitive nature of music these days). World War III starts, your radio will tell you (unless you're dead already). Natural disaster or severe weather happens, your radio will tell you. Podcasts can't do that.

      Radio may some day transform from the traditional AM/FM we've come to know and love (satellite radio, global Wi-Fi streaming, etc ), but the basic idea almost certainly isn't going away anytime soon.

    6. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by omeomi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What car do you have that by merely pressing a few buttons (or turning some knobs), you can listen to podcasts without any extra technology?

      I don't know if it exists yet or not, but it can't be too far off. I can already download podcasts to my iTouch directly over wifi. I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make a car radio that did the same thing. You could even make it detect when it's entered a location with a wifi connection, such as the garage, and start downloading new episodes.

      Of course, some lame-ass company is probably going to patent this idea, and we'll have to wait until the stupid patent expires before we can actually use it...

    7. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by Grave · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having just done an upgrade to our accounting software this morning, and going through a number of small but still very real headaches, I can appreciate why the guys managing a major bank's information systems is damned glad that IBM does things the way they do. That's precisely why the mainframe still exists. When 5-nines uptime still isn't good enough, you don't adopt a radically different system just for the sake of change or progress. When billions of dollars rest on the absolute reliability of your computer infrastructure, migration and change are to be approached with the utmost caution, and anything that reduces complexity and presents a smaller degree of change is a godsend.
    8. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's an old idea, but there is nothing especially wrong with the idea itself...A stable, powerful computer with a rock solid operating system, supported by the sort of technical support only an old school provider like HP, IBM, or Sun can provide.

      If you deal with money, it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. I mean, keep your financials database on a Windows system? Are you nuts? Keep your finances in MySQL, running on Linux? I don't think so. Oracle on Linux, maybe, but what about the hardware? Going to buy yourself a nice Dell? (pause for laughter)

      Buying a sexy mainframe with real hardware support, the kind where they send out a guy who knows what he's doing, 3 minutes after you call, and he's got the new part installed in an hour and a half or your money back...That stuff is priceless if you really really need your system to be reliable. I can definitely see why they're still around.

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    9. Re:Is it really "old" tech? by Darinbob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think the concept of the mainframe has actually been updated. The models have been updated though, but the concept is mostly the same.

      A mainframe is not just a CPU and it's not designed to be a power house of MIPS or FLOPS (or heaven forbid some naive notion of clock speed). Instead a mainframe is an I/O power house. They're designed to handle aggregated data from many different sources and process them efficiently. There are lots of peripheral processors to handle I/O independently of the main processor and each other. The concept of a special purpose computing machine designed for secure, reliable, I/O heavy transaction based processing is still around; and since mainframes do this job cheaper than the alternatives, they're still around.

      There was essentially no reason to declare the mainframe "dead" in the first place. Though declaring certain types or models dead makes sense. The original prognostication seemed a bit like noticing that computers were getting faster with more bandwidth while forgetting that mainframes were allowed to improve as well.

  2. Why OldTech Keeps Kicking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because the people who are used to that tech haven't kicked (the bucket).
    Basic psychology. People stick with what they're used to, even if it doesn't always make the most sense.

    1. Re:Why OldTech Keeps Kicking? by gclef · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or because it works. This is something lots of technologists keep missing. It doesn't matter if the tech is old. If it works and serves it's purpose, the argument to replace it has to be really compelling. "It's old" is not a compelling argument.

  3. can be argued for other things too by downix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Look at the inability of people to drive using joysticks, instead sticking to the classic wheel arrangement. I've seen drive by wire setups using joysticks, they work well, but people just can't get into them.

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    1. Re:can be argued for other things too by downix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      standard rack and pinion steering system is 120 lbs
      drive by wire system using a joystick is 25 lbs.

      Such changes all added throughout a car can dramatically improve fuel efficiency.

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    2. Re:can be argued for other things too by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Crashes decrease fuel efficiency, however. Just because something is lighter does not make it better. Joysticks are far less intuative than wheels for turning. They make perfect sense for planes, which require more dimensions of travel and it's not that important if you're off by a degree or two in the long run. A steering wheel is far superior when it comes to traveling through 1 dimension (sideways).

      Now here's a question for you. Why not drive-by-wire with a steering wheel? There's plenty of examples of it working, I had a steering wheel peripheral for my PS1 not too long ago. If you want to reduce weight without sacrificing utility then duplicate the old interface with new technology, don't re-invent the interface (unless that's what needs to be improved, and steering wheels are a perfectly good interface in my book).

      There's very rarely just two options :P.

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  4. 10 years ago, in Byte by wiredog · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Why PCs Crash, and Mainframes Don't

    When a PC crashes, even the system administrator might not hear about it, much less the vendors who made the system, the OS, and the application software. The user shrugs, reboots, and keeps right on working. When a mainframe crashes, however, it's a major catastrophe. It's General Motors calling up IBM to demand answers.


    Ten years gone, and still relevant.

    Damn I miss Byte.

  5. Mainframes... going out of style?! by CaptainPatent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With a "Bill Gates" 640k view of the world, of course we wouldn't need mainframe computers. Desktops now have more than enough power to run even the largest server applications of 1991 hands down and it's easy to see where that statement came from.

    The problem with the vision is that Stewart Alsop didn't take into account the growing complexity of computer programs. We have plenty of (in comparison to the software of 1991) inefficient applications that require ridiculous amounts of computer power to serve and process everything we need done. We have complex server applications like gigantic databases and games and video servers that couldn't exist in the 1991 world.

    The mainframe of yesteryear may now fit into the physical space of today's desktop... or smaller, but that doesn't mean there won't be a need for a bigger and faster one to take its place. That's as true now as it was then.

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  6. NY Times misses boat again by br00tus · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Gawker.com regularly makes fun of how the New York Times approaches a question the reporter knows little about and comes away with a convoluted answer. The article asks "Why Old Technologies Are Still Kicking". The best answer they come up with is "there must be some enduring advantage in the old technology that is not entirely supplanted by the new". There is an enduring advantage, although they don't go into what it is, and put it in a misleading way actually. It's cheap. Some of these companies have been putting business logic and programs into these systems since the 1950s. The cost of moving them from 370 to 390 to zSeries is minimal, as is replacing parts that break down etc. And it works. Sometimes better than modern machines - some of these machines have uptime of decades. High availability is not a new concept for them.


    What would be the cost of hiring on top of the existing mainframe admins and developers a team to migrate this stuff to Windows or UNIX? Remember some of this code is written by people who not only have left the company but may have died. Then you have to hire new developers and administrators for the UNIX/Windows systems. Change always creates the potential for problems, so expect a higher percentage of disruptions to the business as you're doling out all this money. If IBM is making it easy for you to keep what you have going, and also allows Linux, web etc. capability, why spend all that money to transition? The answer is that a lot of times companies don't. I worked at a Fortune 100 company that still had plenty of IBM mainframes. They even had a lot of their printing handled by the mainframes, although there were Windows and UNIX gateways into the print queue.

  7. It's not 'Old Tech' by kick_in_the_eye · · Score: 3, Insightful

    PC's have been around for over 25 years. Is that not old? They constantly evolve.

    Mainframes constantly evolve.

    Mainframes went 64 bit before the PC ever did. Virtualisation is just gaining ground on the PC.

    Mainframes have had that for decades with Domains and LPAR's.

    Whats old technology, a PC server farm with dedicated server per app, and maybe 10 concurrent users, or a mainframe running many applications with thousands of users, and terrabytes of i/o throughput.

  8. Re:because it works! by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is a huge cost in upgrading that Vax system..
    There are Hundreds of Thousands if not millions of dollars of man hours put into that system, and programs. Replaceing them with a new system could lead to a huge mistake. Being that this is a school district. I doubt that anyone is willing to put the job on the line with such a migration. And being a unioned job I doubt that they will hire consultants to do it for them. They are stuck between two political brick walls.

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  9. Apples and oranges by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, no matter how fast your PC is, PCs and mainframes are engineered for different things. Many mainframe-class machines specialize in transaction processing and are designed for total I/O speed, rather than chip clock speed. People also pay the big bucks for mainframes not because they are fast but because they never, ever crash nor require downtime. Don't let Apple calling a G4 Mac a "supercomputer" confuse you -- a mainframe is still highly specialized equipment, and I doubt there's any application that you personally might need to run that would require one. On the other hand, no matter how fast desktop chips get, it seems unlikely to me that major Wall Street banks would ever switch from mainframes to PC-class hardware for financial transaction processing.

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  10. Total Loss of Knowledge by severoon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think old tech survives because of two reasons, one following the other. First, businesses develop inertia along a certain platform. For example, banks write a lot of code that is restricted to run in a mainframe environment (for whatever reason, it can't be moved off). "Inertia," in this case, means that a lot of code and business processes and practice have been developed around that platform. Perhaps even jobs have been created that are primarily concerned with the care and feeding of this platform and all it supports.

    Then, time passes. People forget, and people leave. New people take over. At some point, if enough complexity develops and sits over a long enough period of time, the entity that owns the platform and all it supports basically loses control of it. They have no knowledge contained outside the system itself...to make significant changes requires someone to delve into it and tease out the why's and wherefore's of how it works. Either that, or replace it wholesale, abandoning all of the functionality of the code and the stability that comes along with the associated business processes.

    If no one quite understands how something works, or even the totality of what it does, then it becomes easier to upgrade an existing platform than replace it. In some cases, the platform can only be upgraded in certain ways that maintains some restrictions of the original platform. And that's why old tech has staying power. No one knows what it does, how it works, or understands the impact of or effort required to replace it.

    I think this cycle is inevitable to some extent where complex systems are required to fulfill some needed function. However, I also think there is much that businesses could do to prevent these issues where they are not necessary. I think the fundamental thing that needlessly ties businesses down to old tech is an improper segmentation of responsibilities within the company. Many times, departments and created and responsibilities assigned based not on the actual work that needs to be done, but rather the prejudices of executive management. A work force should be divided up based on areas of related responsibility and the dependencies between those groups, and nothing else. (This is usually how things are done at the low level of organizing groups, but go one or two levels up on the org chart and the concept seems to no longer apply at most places.)

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    1. Re:Total Loss of Knowledge by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you're close to the point, but there's a strong issue of cost involved.

      In many situations, you can make a solid business case for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." In many businesses, the mainframes ain't broke, and nobody's in a hurry to fix them. Yes, IBM charges rather phenomenally for support when your machines start to get long in the tooth -- but they have a relatively straightforward upgrade path (to new mainframes) that's cheaper for many people than moving to commodity systems would be.

      After all, the people who run mainframes aren't going to buy a bunch of whitebox machines and just cross their fingers and hope they work -- they want support and reliability and equivalent featuresets. By the time you take commodity systems and make them and make them perform like a mainframe, and then make them as reliable as a mainframe, and then you add on the cost of support and maintenance equivalent to what you get with a mainframe ... suddenly you're talking about a sizable pile of dough. Factor in the cost of porting lots of legacy applications, or finding replacement for modern packages that don't have 100% equivalents on commodity hardware (such things do exist), and in retraining or replacing staff who have decades of experience in your mainframe platform and how it functions in your business, and the case for buying the newest z/Series or midrange is clear.

      I think most people would be surprised how much stuff that they count on being on-time and correct but don't think about -- things like their bank statements, phone bills, etc. -- are handled on large systems. And not necessarily creaky old 'legacy' ones, either, but bright shiny new ones.

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