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Space Elevators Face Wobble Problem

NewScientist is reporting that while the strength of the tether has long been considered the main problem in building a space elevator, a new study suggests that a dangerous wobbling problem may also be a serious obstacle. "Previous studies have noted that gravitational tugs from the Moon and Sun, as well as pressure from gusts of solar wind, would shake the tether. That could potentially make it veer into space traffic, including satellites and bits of space debris. A collision could cut the tether and wreck the space elevator."

29 of 244 comments (clear)

  1. A collision could cut the tether... by kcbanner · · Score: 5, Funny

    A collision could cut the tether and wreck the space elevator. Not to mention hurling whomever/whatever is the payload into space with the force of the largest man-made slingshot.
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    1. Re:A collision could cut the tether... by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, most designs specify a thin ribbon. So, no matter where it breaks, it won't impact the ground at more than terminal velocity for thin, burnt sheets.

      The design that specified steel cable did so specifically to show how impractical it would be to attempt a cable using existing materials.

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  2. Then why not a space escalator? by CaptainPatent · · Score: 4, Funny

    Because escalators don't break... they just become stairs.

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    1. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by eln · · Score: 5, Funny

      A broken space escalator would become a stairway to heaven, and if Led Zeppelin has taught us anything, it's that a Stairway to Heaven doesn't make any damn sense at all unless you're already so high you're practically in space already.

    2. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Funny

      if Led Zeppelin has taught us anything, it's that a Stairway to Heaven doesn't make any damn sense at all unless you're already so high you're practically in space already.

      Well it makes perfect sense to me!

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    3. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by operagost · · Score: 4, Funny

      No Stairway? DENIED!

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    4. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by mweather · · Score: 3, Funny

      Or a tunnel from England to France.

    5. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by esampson · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You do realize that most goods imported are imported on ships rather than airplanes, right? The reason for this is because while it is possible to import everything by airplane (as was done in the Berlin airlift) it is much more expensive to do so. In the case of a person traveling across the ocean the extra energy can be justified by the convenience of rapid travel. Most shipped items however don't have to be anywhere in any particular hurry so if it takes a few weeks for them on a boat it is no big deal.

      Similarly a space elevator can be used for things such as hauling materials and supplies up to geosynchronous orbit and if it takes days or weeks or even months that's no big deal since the materials don't care. In the mean time the energy saved on transporting literally hundreds of millions of tons (eventually) of payload into space via elevator would be immense.

    6. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by isomeme · · Score: 4, Funny

      It really makes me wonder.

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    7. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by gwait · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It would definitely ground any storm coming along, with a nice big flash!
      Their copper tether was nowhere near as long as a satellite tether would be, and theirs wasn't shorting out a thunderhead like a satellite tether would,

      Now, IF you could somehow manage the danger of a sudden lightning strike, I think you're right that there would be large voltages across the length of the tether, and you should be able to harvest it for a power source. The act of harvesting the electrical charges might even be a part of the solution..

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    8. Re:Then why not a space escalator? by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Informative

      You hold a piece of string with a weight at the other end and you need a certain minimum angular velocity if you want to spin that around you. If you go too slow, the rope will simply wind up around you NO MATTER what material you use.

      The experiment with the string requires you to keep the weight moving by pulling it with the string, a real satellite does not get pulled by a wire, it moves by its own inertia. The wire isn't what's keeping it in orbit, that's the combination of centrifugal force and gravity.

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  3. When will it become a reality? by genesus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    During a speech he once gave, someone in the audience asked Arthur C. Clarke when the space elevator would become a reality.

    "Clarke answered, 'Probably about 50 years after everybody quits laughing,'" related Pearson. "He's got a point. Once you stop dismissing something as unattainable, then you start working on its development. This is exciting!"

    http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast07sep_1.htm

  4. I am more concerned about the static problem by Black+Art · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would be more concerned about the space elevator becoming a giant van degraff generator. Something that long would present some very interesting problems. Huge frikin lightning rod might be a better description.

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    1. Re:I am more concerned about the static problem by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lighting rods repel lighting, not draw it.

      Nope, sorry. Lightning Rods attract electrical current, thereby drawing it away from other structures that would be damaged by it.

      They do both. As the storm builds up the lightning rods help to diffuse the charge. This is one reason why they have sharp ends; electrons leave a charged conductor more readily at points of higher curvature. The pathway thus created then becomes the preferred (low-resistance) route to ground in the event of an actual lightning strike.

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    2. Re:I am more concerned about the static problem by ma1wrbu5tr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Did ya go to one of those "intelligent design" science classes?

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  5. Of course it's not easy by TheCoders · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think anybody really thought building a space elevator would be as simple as reeling out some cable and strapping on a cabin. There are a million complications, even before we get to solar winds or tidal pulls. How about something as simple as airplane traffic? Birds? Squirrels, for goodness sake!?

    Plus a million things we haven't thought of, and won't think of until the product is built. When train tracks were first laid down, they were too close together, because nobody had heard of the Bernoulli effect. Trains were getting slammed against each-other by their own created air pressure. What did people do? They learned from it, and moved the tracks further apart. We take trains for granted, but they were not without their technological hurdles to overcome.

    Of course something like a space elevator is not an easy accomplishment. Does that mean we shouldn't try?

    What do you think?

    1. Re:Of course it's not easy by Gat0r30y · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course something like a space elevator is not an easy accomplishment. Does that mean we shouldn't try? I think we should and probably will at least give it a shot. Also, as you note, there are a LOT of complications. Complications I look forward to seeing innovative and cool solutions to. First and foremost though, we gotta get the material engineering issue solved, until we have a material which can withstand the forces involved, were stuck with regular elevators. Nanotubes look promising, and this gives us an excuse to invest in the research.
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  6. "I think" Engineering by iamlucky13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    .But Perek says that may not be enough. "Previous proposals for a passive tether controlled from the ground do not seem stable to me," he told New Scientist. Anders Jorgensen of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology in Socorro, US, who has previously studied the problem, agrees that stability is a concern for space elevators. But he says the new paper does not provide a quantitative analysis of the issue, and is not convinced that thrusters would be needed to stabilize the cables.

    Basically, the problem has been noted before this Perek guy's paper, but not studied in any detail. Perek reiterates and perhaps expands upon the concern, but doesn't do any analysis to establish the actual likelihood of a problem. It's basically an opinion.

    Atmospheric oscillations should be extremely well damped by drag. Oscillations due to gravity from the sun and moon may be a greater concern, because there is no drag, although including conductive paths in the cable may allow the earth's magnetic field to suitably damp the oscillations.

    An IEEE article on the topic discussed the related issue of harmonics. If these oscillations propogate through the cable at a rate that syncs up well with the rotation of the earth, gravity of either the moon or sun may amplify them. The tensile component can be tuned by adjusted the mass and tensile stiffness of the cable, and even better, the mass of the counterweight, allowing you to tune it by changing the tension, like an incredibly huge guitar string. The will also be a pendulum like motion due to the fact that the earth is on a tilted axis. This seems to be the concern discussed in the article.

    I personally am not at all convinced that oscillation of the cable alone (waves) is a problem due to it's low density, but oscillation of the combined cable and counterweight (pendulum) may be. If so, thrusters on the counterweight are much simpler to attach and refuel than they would be at intermediate altitudes on the cable.

  7. wreck the elevator by alta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Looking at the sheer size of this, I'd say that 'wreck the elevator' is a major understatement. Look at all the other stuff that would be wrecked. I remember reading a Ben Bova book a while back where terrorists sabotaged an elevator. They went to the top and severed the connection to the counterweight. The rest of the thing toppled like a flimsy tree, wrapping itself 1/2 way around the earth. Yeah, scifi, but it could happen.

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    1. Re:wreck the elevator by alta · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, no. The rotation of the earth would cause the ribbon to wrap around the earth in an easterly direction. To refute myself as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator#In_the_event_of_failure says that most of it would burn up on re-entry and that which doesn't will have less force than a piece of paper. So, please disregard my statements, but it sounded impressive the first time I said it ;)

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    2. Re:wreck the elevator by merreborn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, no. The rotation of the earth would cause the ribbon to wrap around the earth in an easterly direction
      If what you propose were true, a pin balanced on its end would always fall over to the east as well, as would a perfectly symmetrical tree, or a falling skyscraper.

      They don't, because all these things, a space elevator included, travel through space at the same speed as the earth's rotation. Why would it suddenly, magically lose that momentum, were it severed from its counterweight?
  8. And you thought it was bad by Lucas123 · · Score: 3, Funny

    getting stuck in an elevator in a NYC skyscraper, imagine a brownout halfway between here and the moon.

  9. It's easier to postulate than actually engineer by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "I predict flying cars by year 2000^h^h^h^h2010^h^h^h^h2020". Prediction is the easy bit. Actually engineering a flying car or space elevator or whatever is the hard bit. There are a lot of very significant obstacles to overcome.

    The old well worn bridge analogy: In theory it's pretty easy to built a bridge, but you need to only look at the Tacoma Narrows bridge to see that engineering a viable structure takes a bit more than str theory is prettSame deal with a space elevator. The theory is pretty straightforward, but the actual engineering to make a reliable structure is something else.

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  10. Kids pressing all the buttons... by MrSteveSD · · Score: 5, Funny

    is surely the biggest problem :)

  11. launch loops by nguy · · Score: 4, Informative

    It seems to me that, at this point, launch loops are a much more realistic and practical choice for a launch structure than space elevators.

    Unlike space eleveators, launch loops require no exotic materials (just iron and steel), are essentially self-erecting, are anchored, and accelerate people quickly through the radiation belt.

    We could probably build a launch loop in a decade or two, if we embarked on an Apollo-like program.

  12. The Stealth Fighter and Bomber Are Unstable, Too by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Stealth Nighthawk fighter could not be controlled by a human, it is so aerodynamically unstable. But with the help of some good software, that plane flies. The same is true of the B-2 Batwing bomber, it only flies because a computer stabilizes it.

    There will be controllable vanes (for the atmosphere) and thrusters (for space) to control the car's behavior. The wobble would be predictable and all the traffic would be required to avoid it, in the same way power boats are required to steer around sailboat.

  13. The bigger problem with space elevators... by GeneralEmergency · · Score: 4, Funny


    ...is having to listen to bad instrumental versions of "The Girl From Ipanema" for three days straight.

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  14. no, it would go east. by F�an�ro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, no. The rotation of the earth would cause the ribbon to wrap around the earth in an easterly direction
    If what you propose were true, a pin balanced on its end would always fall over to the east as well, as would a perfectly symmetrical tree, or a falling skyscraper.
    There is no tipping or balancing involved here

    The top of an intact space elevator in orbit would move eastwards, just like the ground under it does.
    The top would move at a much greater speed than the ground, since it is further from the center of the earth and has to cover a greater distance for a full circle.

    As any part of this elevator falls towards earth, it would keep its greater eastward speed and therefore overtake its anchor point quickly.

  15. being unstable doesn't preclude it being usable by slew · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just because it's unstable doesn't mean it's impossible to get working.

    For instance most modern fighter aircraft are aerodynamically unstable, but they still fly. For example, the F16 was deliberatly designed to be unstable (to gain better manuverability). Of course the F16 has a computer control system to make it flyable by humans, but if the computer dies, well, unstable tumble modes ahead... I've also antecdodally heard that some modern bridges and tall-buildings are also not inherently stable (and are actively stabilized by computer control systems).

    But to be honest, I think the engineering of a space elevator is pretty much beyond our forseeable technical ability (material science, control systems, assembly techniques, not to mention project management, risk/return estimation, and financing/underwriting).

    If you think the problems are merely about waiting for technology, just think of the chunnel. It was imagined for a long time, but even after they got all the science and technology and assembly issues under control, the project management, risk/return estimation and financing/underwriting issues managed to kill a few companies before if finally got done.