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Newspapers Are Dying, Blog At 11

The New Yorker is running a long and thoughtful piece by Eric Alterman on the death and life of the American newspaper. It's not news that newspapers are dying, but the acceleration of the process in the last few years is startling: "Independent, publicly traded American newspapers have lost forty-two per cent of their market value in the past three years... The columnist Molly Ivins complained, shortly before her death, that the newspaper companies' solution to their problem was to make 'our product smaller and less helpful and less interesting.'" The article goes on to profile The Huffington Post as exemplar of what is replacing paper and ink. "The Huffington Post's editorial processes are based on what Peretti has named the 'mullet strategy.' ('Business up front, party in the back' is how his trend-spotting site BuzzFeed glosses it.) 'User-generated content is all the rage, but most of it totally sucks,' Peretti says. The mullet strategy invites users to 'argue and vent on the secondary pages, but professional editors keep the front page looking sharp.

44 of 279 comments (clear)

  1. Plus Ads by ericdano · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The papers in my area in California are at least 50% ads. In fact, on Tuesdays, they include this ad flyer in addition to the paper. On that day, the paper is about 70% ads then.

    So, to make up for their lack of "real" content, the companies are sticking ads in there. Sad really.........I remember in the 80s that the newspaper had extremely few ads.......

    --
    It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
    I moderate therefore I rule!
    --
    1. Re:Plus Ads by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      I get a free weekly newspaper that is mostly ads. So they aren't sticking the ads in their to make up for the lack of real content, they are getting paid to distribute the ads to you.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  2. On News by Upaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is, most of the Newspapers just no longer try to report news, so much as sell it, and they have all merged (thanks to Murdoch, I suspect) into one single venue, just written towards different levels.

    Right now the only papers I read in the morning are the Financial Times (which does not count as an American Paper for reports like this, right?) And once a week I get the Sunday Times from a newspaper importer. While I feel the Times has fallen harder then all the others, it still has my crossword, and gives me the Murdoch point of view for the world.

    I mainly get my news from reading the BBC website daily, and 20 minutes on Slashdot.

    --
    3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
    1. Re:On News by Stiletto · · Score: 3, Informative

      Is it any wonder? Real news isn't even a large part of what passes for "newsertainment" these days. Let's take a look at and categorize the current headlines on some major US "news" web sites:

      CNN.com:

      Iraq PM welcomes al-Sadr call; curfews ending
      - News, borderline propaganda piece

      Home inspection nightmares
      - Not news. Fluff piece, mild fear-mongering

      March Madness
      - Not news. Fluff, Entertainment

      Celebrity makeup bag
      - Not news. Fluff, Entertainment

      FOXNews.com:

      Should She Stay or Go? (about Hillary Clinton)
      - Not news. Right-wing propaganda piece

      'Clear and Present Danger'
      - Not news. Right-wing propaganda piece

      'Muslims Have Overtaken Us'
      - Not news. Right-wing propaganda piece

      MSNBC.com:

      Proposal would give Fed wide new powers
      - Not news. Fear mongering (read it)

      Another jobs loss may sink stocks again
      - Not news. Editorial speculation.

      How Clinton, McCain and Obama would tackle the U.S. economy
      - Not news. Political propaganda.

      Memphis advances to Final Four
      - Not news. Fluff, Entertainment.

      USAToday.com:

      Al-Sadr pulls militia, offers Iraq deal
      - News, borderline propaganda

      CIA chief: Al-Qaeda has safe haven
      - Not news. Propaganda, fear-mongering

      'Killing Fields' survivor passes
      - News.

      Doubts raised about Vytorin, Zetia
      - Not news. Speculative, fear-mongering

  3. Re:Ha Ha by MJMullinII · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I take mild offense at that. Most people do not realize that in small towns, most Newspapers are weeklies, not dailies. In small towns, away from the lights and cameras of CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, the weekly Newspaper is about the ONLY source for LOCAL news. That is really the trouble. Large, daily papers keep trying be the end all and be all of "The News". IF they let people watch CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News for the "World News" and focused their attention just on their local communities (Things the Majors couldn't give a shit about), they might be surprised how their fortunes turned.

    --
    "Don't be a martyr -- BE THE ONE WHO GOT AWAY!"
  4. Re:Ha Ha by morari · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Craigslist, (most) blogs, and YouTube are riddled with too many idiots to even be granted the acknowledgment of being biased...

    --
    "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
  5. caveat by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    no media ever dies

    television was supposed to kill both radio and the movies. well, we don't see movie news reels anymore, and we don't see radio serials either, but you can't watch tv while driving to work, and no one wants to see indiana jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull in your parent's basement by yourself on a 19 inch monitor

    what new media does do is dramatically alter the audience and purpose of old media. so newspapers will come to see the point where their income from online content will eclipse their income from print content. so then what is the purpose of newspapers without the actual newspaper?

    one answer: trust

    like the story summary suggests, user generated content sucks. in terms of quality and in terms of partisanship. so newspaper sites will still be the place people go for breaking news and truthful reporting. you can't beat a salaried professional news gathering organzation in terms of trust. nothing the internet can spew forth threatens that

    the internet has merely created lots of partisan fiefdoms with an agenda and user venting. much of it rambling, illiterate, unhinged, and mostly useless. usless to readers, not those who vent: that's the psychological value of catharsis. that is, user generated content is usually more useful for whomever is commenting than anyone who reads the comment. this form of online content obviously isn't a threat to anything newspaper's do, merely a weird ecological tweak to how they fit into the media universe. the internet makes newspapers part of a loud room of noisy feedback, rather than the lonely ivory towers they used to be

    and so the newspaper will morph into a less prestigious role in society, but it will never die, and will still be vital in a modified way

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:caveat by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      the internet has merely created lots of partisan fiefdoms with an agenda and user venting. much of it rambling, illiterate, unhinged, and mostly useless.

      So have newspapers. I was reading an editorial in the WSJ about the how successful "the surge" allegedly is, and found it to stretch things and manipulate quotes. I decided to abandon it out of frustration. While moving my eyes away, I happened to glance at the author: "Karl Rove". R. Murdoch has Foxitized it, as feared.

    2. Re:caveat by umghhh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would mod you up if I could but you have your points already anyway so I comment instead.

      You are right that announced death of a newspaper is exaggerated. I do not read newspapers the way I did 30 years ago but I still do because our beloved and indispensable internet provide all information but not always it is is easy to find and when I find it it is usually not very reliable and for instance rarely describes local issues that are important to me.
      Besides I still prefer to read in depth commentaries and do it while for instance waiting for a train or bus or while relaxing on the bank in the spring sun. The same information in electronic form is either not available or when it is it is so cumbersome to use in such places than I prefer to access it old fashion way.

      Besides there is no better way to polish windows than to use old newspaper (at least those printed in the old fashion). When internet becomes available without trouble and polish my windows too I will agree to discard my then pointless habits:)

      Note for those slashdotters that never leave the geek's basement: windows are those things people like to have in their rooms so that the sunlight can come in and you can look outside. They are similar to computer display but need no power and you do not need DSL to see naked (albeit not very nice looking) female neighbour taking the sun bath.

  6. mullet strategy by orionop · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It sounds just like slashdot...
    only with professional editing.

  7. I stopped reading at by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The American newspaper (and the nightly newscast) is designed to appeal to a broad audience, with conflicting values and opinions, by virtue of its commitment to the goal of objectivity. Many newspapers, in their eagerness to demonstrate a sense of balance and impartiality, do not allow reporters to voice their opinions publicly, march in demonstrations, volunteer in political campaigns, wear political buttons, or attach bumper stickers to their cars."

    If you ever have seen the documentary Spin or just really paid attention you know the mainstream media including the newspaper is as far away as you can get from "objective." It annoys me that they and the nightly news toot their own horn with that BS every chance they get -- and unfortunately they are fooling a few others.

    If they want to pretend that they don't shape the news, fine, but I think that's a big reason why people are leaving in droves to get better news online.

  8. There's no news in there by Animats · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Of course nobody is reading newspapers any more. There's so little news in them.

    In the SF area papers, the "Food and Wine" section is thicker than the "News" section, and the "Cars" section is thicker than both together. What's the point? Especially since, if that's what you want, there are better sources for information about food, wine, cars, sports, and classified advertising.

    The whole point of newspapers is that they send people out to dig up stories, and you pay to read the results. That's fine. As advertising-delivery vehicles, they're obsolete.

  9. Journalists are the problem by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, when people graduate from journalism school, and the reason that they became journalists is to "change the world", then that's a pretty different idea from just reporting the news as it happens, yah? When the idea is to use your position to change the world, your readers will figure out your biases sooner or later. And I'm not even getting into the monoculture of ideas and poverty of thought so prevalent in the modern newsroom. Have a try at this newsroom game and see if you make the right decisions. If you fail at the game, then you'll understand why newspapers are failing today.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  10. Re:Ha Ha by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This condescending dick thinks that people want to live in mud huts and get their drinking water from the same watering hole they shit in.

    People who invite development projects do not necessarily welcome military action.

    He'd be asking why we were not in Afghanistan sooner to make sure that all those "brown" women could go to school, not have their clits cut off and be allowed to show ankle skin in public.

    Female genital mutilation does not occur in Afghanistan.

    and Syria, where they take food from children's mouths so they can attack children across the Israeli border.

    Do you have evidence of mass starvation in Syria? There are loads of tourists there these days, and no one is reporting famine and misery.

    This selfish spoiled brat likes to blame America for the world's problems and conveniently ignore that America gave more to fight AIDS in Africa than whatever country he is in.

    While other countries give less in total dollars amounts to aid, they quite often give more in percentage of GDP.

    Your post deserves to get modded down because it is poorly thought out. You could make a case that America is doing good in many parts of the world, but when you should such shoddy arguments you hurt your own cause.

  11. Trust? by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Newspapers provide an illusion of trust, but too much of the time that's all it is. An illusion. The people working for the newspapers aren't all that different from the people writing blogs.

    There aren't as many total lunatics in newsrooms, maybe, but reporters and editors all have their agendas no matter how much they want to hide it, and the veneer of objectivity washes away as soon as you see a story in the paper where you actually know some of the facts, where you know enough to tell if they're objective or accurate.

    The biggest difference between the Internet and the papers is that here you get to see all the political sausage-making out in the open... not hidden in the editor's office and the story room.

    1. Re:Trust? by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Interesting


      The people working for the newspapers aren't all that different from the people writing blogs.

      I don't think most journalists like to admit this, but I think you're actually right.

      The BIG difference between the newspaper writers and the bloggers is funding and resources. How many bloggers are there embedded in Iraq for instance? How many have the resources, capital, lawyers, and clout to investigate Watergate, or The Pentagon Papers? I don't recall hearing about any bloggers able to get into the white house press room (but hey, traditional journalists haven't exactly been all that great when they ARE there).

      Journalists like to downplay the bloggers as cub-reporters, and bloggers like to imagine they're bringing the REAL information to the people, unfiltered, unedited, blah, blah blah. Both opinions are an exaggeration.

      My point is that the bloggers aren't going to ever replace professional journalists. There's some stories that just can't be done by a guy doing a little research after work and on weekends.

      --
      AccountKiller
    2. Re:Trust? by argent · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The BIG difference between the newspaper writers and the bloggers is funding and resources. How many bloggers are there embedded in Iraq for instance?

      Counting the Iraqi bloggers, military bloggers, and contractors?

      How many have the resources, capital, lawyers, and clout to investigate Watergate, or The Pentagon Papers?

      How many newspapers have done that kind of investigative reporting in the past 20 years? If they had been doing it a few years ago, we might not be in Iraq in the first place.

      I don't recall hearing about any bloggers able to get into the white house press room (but hey, traditional journalists haven't exactly been all that great when they ARE there).

      Not yet, no, but that's not because they don't have the resources. If it was just money someone would have bought their way in by now. It's because they're not seen as reporters, kind of a catch-22 situation.

      My point is that the bloggers aren't going to ever replace professional journalists.

      I don't know if they will be able to or not. The more interesting question is, will they have to do it anyway?

  12. Re:Ha Ha by capaslash · · Score: 2, Informative

    Reporter: "Sir, when you talk about Iran, and you talk about how you have diplomatic efforts, you also say all options are on the table. Does that include the possibility of a nuclear strike? Is that something that your administration will plan for?" Bush: "All options are on the table." That option means nuclear weapons. http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0228-28.htm Perhaps if you, ah, read a newspaper you'd be aware of such comments. Also, ""If Iran had a nuclear weapon, it'd be a dangerous threat to world peace," Bush said. "So I told people that if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested" in ensuring Iran not gain the capacity to develop such weapons." http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/17/asia/prexy.php

  13. Call me when my rabbit can crap on the internets.. by ahoehn · · Score: 4, Funny

    Every Sunday I get both the New York Times and LA Times delivered. I like to sit and drink coffee and read a newspaper on Sunday morning. Now, I could do that on my laptop, or desktop, or a Kindle, but here's the important quality of dead-tree based newspapers: Once I'm done reading them, their combined size is perfect to line the bottom of my rabbit's cage, and for the next week, he gets to crap on All the News That's Fit to Print.

    Until my bunny can defecate on the internets, I'll keep on subscribing to old fashioned newspapers.

    --
    Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
  14. Do people prefer already-digested news? by Morris+Thorpe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First, let me say that I realize there is much media bias.

    However, it seems to me that people in the U.S. are increasingly divided. We want our viewpoints affirmed - not challenged. When was the last time you heard someone say or write "That makes sense. Maybe I'm wrong."

    When I worked as a reporter, I always judged my job on controversial issues by the number of complaints I got from both sides. If they were nearly evenly divided, I knew I did well. Those I offended used almost exactly the same wording except for changing x for y in their complaints.

    Maybe people are giving up newspaper for blogs because they want to hear the digested version of a story. Skip the thinking and just go to the umbrage.

    1. Re:Do people prefer already-digested news? by felix+rayman · · Score: 2, Insightful


      When I worked as a reporter, I always judged my job on controversial issues by the number of complaints I got from both sides. If they were nearly evenly divided, I knew I did well.


      This explains everything that is wrong with modern "journalism" in one simple statement.

      Someone says the earth is flat. Someone else says it is round. The "reporter" judges the success of his alleged "reportage" by whether the number of complaints from those holding one viewpoint is equal to those holding the other.

      Thanks for helping to fuck our country up in the name of balance.

  15. Indian papers - going the dreadlock strategy... by sskang · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...not sure what other hair style could represent "party all over." The reduction in the quality of the major newspapers in India over the last decade is startling. I don't know whose fault it is though - maybe sports, fashion, lifestyle nonsense and celebrity gossip is all people actually _want_ to read in a newspaper. The Times of India, which used to be pretty good, is truly shameful.

  16. Local News by MrCopilot · · Score: 3, Informative
    I live in a small (Pawtucket could kick its ass) rural community. If you want to know about what is going on around here there are 2 places to look, the local newspaper and the bulletin board at the local IGA.

    The Newspaper has a cute little 1995 style website, but it is less comprehensive than the paper.

    That said, I rarely care what is going on around here, and therefore buy the paper nearly never. Although I do scan the headlines at the convenience store.

    The web allows me to read the NYTimes, Washington Post, San Francisco Chronicle, Miami Herald, The BBC and a thousand blogs a week. I love new media, but Ii still respect the old guild.

    --
    OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
  17. Re:Ha Ha by funwithBSD · · Score: 2, Informative

    See, I would pay for a small town newspaper. What I got instead is the Sacramento Bee, which is mostly a rehash of the AP and Rueters I can get for free and one day earlier.

    So I read the SN&R instead, for free. Not the best, not my politics, but almost always worth a read.

    --
    Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
  18. you have a common misperception by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    misperception #1:

    once upon a time, all media was unbiased and neutral. then fox news came along and made it into propaganda. really? go into wikipedia and type "yellow journalism". read up on the uss maine and why the usa went to war with spain in 1898. you think the manipulating of facts to start a war is a new invention? please! story as old as time. every regime that has ever existed has engaged in this. go further back in history, all the way to the printing press, and earlier: there never has been, and never will be, such a thing as fair and balanced media (pun intended). ever. in any country. in any era. that ever was or ever will be

    why?

    that gets us to misperception #2:

    that a neutral unbiased media is even possible. it is impossible. the media is made by human beings. all human beings are biased in one way or another. everyone has an agenda. those who claim they are not biased, or actually fervently believe they are not biased, are in fact probably the most biased of all: blind to one's own nature

    so what does one do in a world with bias everywhere? answer: they develop a good bullshit detector

    and making peace with this fact of biased media is actually a good thing, not a bad thing. do you honestly believe it is a better world where everyone just took something written by a media mouthpiece as solid gold truth, and never questioned it? isn't it better to have a well-read populace who disbelieves and doubts everything? and how do you train such a populace? you throw bias at them from every monitor and printed word, and you train their mind like a muscle to develop an extremely strong and sophisticated bullshit detector

    those who argue for censorship do so in the name of preventing the spreading of lies, from the right or the left. but when they do this, they actually show little faith in the general populace. they don't save the populace from themselves this way, they merely breed zombies and sheep. in the name of preventing lies, they create the environment for more lies. this is the true value of free speech: a darwinian competition of ideas. to let out all of it, all the bullshit, let it all be spoken. even the biggest lies and the most vile words. in this way, the general populace can decide for themselves, and you get a general populace that values critical thought. you never get critical thought in a society where unbiased media existed. in fact there is societies today where "unbiased" media exists: iran, china, russia, etc.: the places where freedoms are the least. and the people there, unfortunately, have very weakly developed bullshit detectors, and are therefore prone to the kind of pies manipulation and propaganda that makes your concerns over fox news look quaint. just look at china's one sided coverage of tibet: all they show is ethnic colonial han getting attacked. as if that is all that is going on and the tibetans aren't being attacked! propaganda. half-truth. beijing understands the idea very well

    a world of biased media everywhere is actually SUPERIOR: it trains the minds of the general public to have a healthy bullshit meter. so while some people lament things like fox news, i, as a liberal in the deepest sense of the word liberal, am thankful for fox news. because fox news serves as a cautionary tale, an innoculation device. it weans people off propaganda, by being propaganda. fox news is a training device fro stronger minds to overcome. and for all those who believe fox news 100% and look no further for the "truth": do you honestly believe that in a world of "unbiased" media they would be flower children? no. a right winger is not made. it's like being gay. their minds are just made that way ;-P

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:you have a common misperception by epine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you train their mind like a muscle to develop an extremely strong and sophisticated bullshit detector I have a great BS detector. In order not to squander my fabulous muscle, I generally skip posts by lazy typists. Back in the era of "See Spot run" eliminating one extra use of the shift key per sentence might have amounted to a measurable reduction of effort.

      Don't tell me this is the writing style of someone who types with two fingers of one hand, where no "and" was spared.

      Seriously, this does not help the reader, though I might make an allowance if you replaced the unreliable and nearly invisible sentence final . with a more visible splat (*) to offset the loss of the sentence initial caps your withered pinky is unwilling to type.

      We just need to get another version of the splat mark added to Unicode, aligned where the period used to be found (so it doesn't look like a footnote) and while we're at it, we should also adopt the Chinese dunhao comma into English orthography, which I've always liked.
  19. Let's Clarify. by hullabalucination · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's be clear here. To the New York Times and every Internet blogger who fancies themselves the Times-killer, all American newspapers are publicly-traded, big city dailies.

    Unfortunately for the Internet, this isn't even close to being true. I've personally helped start several small-town weeklies/dailies in my area (I do Websites as well, so no bias here), and although one startup over the past 5 years has folded, we've got a net gain in my county of two community newspapers over what we had in 2002. Plus one very high-end magazine aimed at folks with $100K+ annual incomes. And this is not unusual across the U.S., where small community publications are still going strong.

    The real story is that the Internet, over the past decade, has failed completely as a local news/information delivery system to the average consumer. And, bear in mind that although the Internet is good at delivering on my $1,000 computer, at much higher cost and bother, what my $30.00 radio delivers every day for little cost or bother — national/international news briefs — it's next to impossible to find out what's happening in my town on the Internet in any detail or in a timely fashion. And, lo and behold, what few sources that do exist to find out are, (are you ready, now?) those put up by — you guessed it — my local community newspapers. And those sites normally only have "teaser" versions of the story. You have to subscribe to the Dead Tree Edition to get the full story. Very clever, no?

    Now, this is not merely academic to me. I own a small advertising agency. I absolutely can not get my local businesses to do much advertising on the Web, other than building their own Websites (another interesting topic, but not for this post). Sorry, but they're just not interested in reaching folks in Botswana and Poland. Can you blame them? The overwhelming majority of American businesses (according to the US Dept. of Labor/Census Bureau) are small businesses, defined as having less than 100 employees. The much-glorified Huffington Post is completely useless to most all of my 300+ small-business clients, as is the New York Times. Without advertisers willing to spend on the Web, Web news sources will stay pretty much as they are now — Digg with the same rehashes of UPI/AP/Reuters feeds, repeated ad nauseum with posters trying desperately to add a sentence or two summary spin to the canned article hoping to reach the site's front page. Internet News is depressingly incestuous, sketchy, amateurish, and a couple of hours behind my local NPR radio station.

    What media pundits seem to be missing out on is that the American consumer is more and more interested in what's happening in his own county/town/neighborhood and less and less interested in what is happening in The Big City or on the other side of the planet. We're getting less centralized, folks. Most of the US population has been diffusing from the big cities and spreading out into the surrounding countryside for the past few decades. I'm here to tell you that the Big City Daily has been dying since the 60's, mostly due to cable television news channels and the advent of 24-hour all-news radio. I'm in a rural county just on the edge of the Dallas/Ft. Worth Sprawloplex, and we've got no less than three 24/7 all-talk radio stations who are getting their quota of advertisers, last time I checked. Plus two 24/7 all-sports stations. Yes, they stream on the Web. No, it's not an income source for most, but a loss-leader supported by over-the-air broadcasting.

    I do think that eventually, most all news will be delivered via network. In about 30-50 years. Right now, Google and the porn industry notwithstanding, nobody has really figured out how to make money off the Internet in the more localized news market, where the majority of advertisers (small business) and consumers are. We've got several itty-bitty print publications in my county that can draw enough revenue to pay for professional writers, design

  20. Re:we have the same beliefs, but different conclus by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    what you call an illusion of trust i would relabel as an honest attempt at trust.

    Whether they are honest or not (and you know, I hope, they aren't always honest) doesn't change the fact that the result is an illusion. I've blogged about that before... the chain from the witnesses and primary sources to the front page is often a game of telephone. The difference is that when it happens on a blog you get to see the whole thing, and can go back to find where the fellow turned "The Bugblatter Beast makes a good meal of visiting tourists" into "The Bugblatter Beast makes a good meal for visiting tourists".

    Whether they're honest or not, their biases inform their idea of what impartiality means. A reporter on Fox News and a reporter at Pacifica Radio may both think they're being impartial, but they're not.

    And, again, they're NOT always honest. And, again, whether they are or not... the result is the same. You shouldn't trust what you read in the newspapers any more than you should trust what you read on the Internet. The difference is that on the Internet you CAN get more of the information you need to inform your own best attempt at an unbiased opinion.

    http://scarydevil.com/~peter/io/harlan.html (1998)
    http://scarydevil.com/~peter/io/bunk.html (2004)
    http://scarydevil.com/~peter/io/cringe.html (2006)

  21. your comment asumes something by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that all of the people, all of the time, have functioning bullshit detectors. or that is ever possible

    random demagogues exist in every society, because they satisfy a portion of the audience. but they don't appeal to all of the audience, NOR can the audience be completely innoculated against the efforts of demagogues

    so you have to make peace with the fact that a large portion of any human society is populated with people with permanently broken or nonfunctional bullshit detectors. and this will always be true, if you respect the notion of free will. which is a much greater thing to value than absolute adherence to some arbitrary bullshit detector standard

    put your faith in the large, mostly silent majority of people who can sniff bullshit out when they hear it/ see it. they exist, they really do, and they are self-replicating in a society that values freedom of the press and freedom of expression. they're will is not always expressed unaltered by their government, but again, we live in an imperfect world. we can only approximate the higher standards we are discussing here. all we can do is try harder to approximate better

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  22. Re:Ha Ha by symes · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have to agree with your sentiment. There is nothing wrong with the medium of newspaper (ok, there might be a whole load wrong with some of the people who decide what gets printed). When Gutenberg invented the printing press he pushed literacy to a great many - no longer did people have to rely on spoken word and it's subjectivity to catch up on what was going on locally and nationally. The newspapers that flowed off the printing presses helped create professional journalism and this, and I realise this might not be popular, is something I feel is sorely lacking in the blogosphere. Internet news is, by and large, ephemeral (pages can disappear at the slightest hint of litigation), professional standards are lacking (there are exceptions though) and user generated content is awash with ranting and unsubstantiated gossip and innuendo. I like reading a well-written newspaper and having it around for a few days. And echoing the sentiment of the above poster, I find my local paper plays a very important role in my local community. I think it would be a terrible shame if we lost them all.

  23. NY Times was Foxitized well before Fox by Brian_Ellenberger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So have newspapers. I was reading an editorial in the WSJ about the how successful "the surge" allegedly is, and found it to stretch things and manipulate quotes. I decided to abandon it out of frustration. While moving my eyes away, I happened to glance at the author: "Karl Rove". R. Murdoch has Foxitized it, as feared.

    The New York Times, LA Times, and many other newspapers were "Foxitized" well before Fox. Most of Fox News's popularity comes from people who were sick of the rest of media being so ridiculously biased in one direction.

    You know it is bad when Hillary Clinton is complaining about the general bias in media towards candidates. And somehow I don't think she is apart of the "Right Wing Attack Machine". Of course, you only complain when you are not benefiting from the bias...

    You also have to consider the effects of the out and out lies---Stephen Glass, the doctored photos from Adnan Hajj, the recent admission the LA times made that they were duped on FBI records on the death of rap murders, etc. The argument against blogs is that they are amateurs who cannot be believed, yet they seem to be the ones doing the best fact checking against the so-called professionals!

    We are lacking a maturity in our analysis abilities that allows us to identify bias both FOR and AGAINST our positions. People who lack this maturity think that everything that agrees with their point of view is somehow "in the middle" and everything else is "to the left and right". This two dimensional egotistical thinking is causing deep divisions in our country that really scare me. It's like this is some sort of sporting competition with teams and a winner and a loser. You are not allowed to have any beliefs of the "other side", not allowed to compromise or cooperate for solutions. Not allowed to understand that you have a point of view, and it may be reflected in a newspaper or TV programs, but it is not the only point of view and it is equally valuable to listen to both sides. Or to have a newspaper or news show report with a neutral point of view, to use a wikipedia term. But the media today wants to push an agenda and "tell a story" (aka "Narrative") rather than report facts. So people vote with their dollars and abandon those newspapers, because they aren't providing them with news!

    Brian Ellenberger
    1. Re:NY Times was Foxitized well before Fox by ibbey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The New York Times, LA Times, and many other newspapers were "Foxitized" well before Fox. Most of Fox News's popularity comes from people who were sick of the rest of media being so ridiculously biased in one direction.

      Damn straight. People hate it when the media is so biased in the direction of accuracy. Fox was a breath of fresh air since they weren't tied down by minor annoyances like reality.

      Seriously, while the NYT, LAT, etc. may have some bias, they have long been balanced out by their counterparts on the other side. NYP, WSJ, Washington Times, Pittsburgh News Tribune, USA Today (the most read newspaper in the US)... The irony of the grandparent is that he complains about Murdoch "foxetizing" the Wall Street Journal-- a paper with such a strong right-wing bias that they literally drove a top White House adviser to suicide due to their repeated slanders (Vince Foster, though I know all the right-wingnuts are convinced that Hillary had him murdered). The WSJ was a FAR right-wing newspaper-- particularly its editorial page-- long before Fox acquired it.

      Hillary Clinton is complaining about the media's bias against her because it works in her favor to do so. She not only wins sympathy votes from her supporters, but she has managed to deflect ALL criticism of her as mere "media bias". This is exactly what Bush did with the 60 minutes report on his draft dodging. He turned one poorly vetted story into a condemnation of any criticisms of his failure to complete his contracted military service.

      The myth of the "Liberal Media" is so absurdly false that it's hard to believe that anyone buys into it anymore, but it is still constantly thrown out. It can be discredited with just a little critical thought, yet apparently most Americans are incapable of critical thinking. Let's go back to the 90's. Nearly every day, allegations of crimes or misdeeds by the Clinton Administration were printed on the cover of virtually every major newspaper in America. After Eight years and tens of millions of dollars of investigations-- probably even hundreds of millions if you count the private investigations done by the media and right-wingers with a cause-- almost every story was completely discredited, often by the most cursory examination, but that didn't stop new allegations from appearing the next day.

      Now jump forward to the present administration. There is absolutely no reasonable doubt that this administration has committed TRULY impeachable crimes. Illegally outing a covert intelligence agent for political purposes, knowingly misrepresenting Iraq's possession of WMD's, lying about Saddam Hussein's ties to Al Qaeda, violating the 4th amendment on an almost unbelievable scale (and lying about it), illegally firing US Attorneys for political reasons, destroying emails and other documents in clear violation of the presidential records act, illegal electioneering, advisers just plain ignoring subpoenas to appear before congress, the complete disregard and later destruction of habeas corpus... There are literally hundreds of scandals that this administration has been involved with, and they have all been largely ignored by the mainstream media. Sure the stories are mentioned, but they are rarely covered by more than a story or two and then it's off to the latest Britney story. They are almost never really dug into. If even one in ten of the scandals are true (and the real number is probably far higher than that) than this is almost certainly the most corrupt administration in US history.

      If the media is so biased to the left, how can you explain such an apparent bias towards the right? Hell, even the evil NYT was one of the biggest champions of the Iraq War, and without its support we possibly never would hav

  24. Re:Ha Ha by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...he'd be asking why we were not in Iraq sooner to prevent all those brown people from getting killed and thrown into mass graves.
    Asymmetrical information. I believe that's the answer you're looking for.

    When the Kurds were getting gassed in Iraq. Most major newspapers in Europe made it front page. In the US, there was no mention of it, or if there was, the story got buried so deep -- most American people -- even the ones who do manage to read Major American newspapers on a daily basis -- couldn't tell you what had happen.

    Furthermore, when the issue came up in front of the UN security council to impose sanctions, only one member was totally against it and -- that was the US. Once again, this brings us back to this information asymmetry. When I tell my American friends this, they have no idea of what I'm talking about.

    He'd be screaming for us to go into places like Iran, where they hang gays in public square
    Once again, there seems to be some information asymmetry going on here. Before we ousted their democratically elected President and installed a puppet of our own choosing, Iran was a SECULAR country in every modern sense of the word (i.e. women went to school, women were doctors, gays didn't get publicly executed, etc.), the only crime they had committed was that they nationalized their own oil fields and kicked out British Petroleum. That's when everything started going to hell. And that's only then that the religious nationalist nut-jobs rose to power.

    Think of me as a "troll" if you will. Assume that I'm just like another liberal whack-job, that will distort and romanticize past history to maintain his own distorted sense of reality. But whatever you end up believing about me, realize that the poster you just replied to -- didn't deserve half of the insults and the condescending remarks -- you gave him. And nor did that poster need to imply that all the people who disagreed with him were racists either. There are no winners here. In either case, there is no need to demonize someone because they disagree with you, or because they may know less than you do. This kind of inflamed discussion leads nowhere.
  25. Relative Authority of News Sources by Phoenix666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The old, mainstream media destroyed their credibility and authority by doing five things:

    1. Dumbed down their content by turning to celebrity gossip, etc. and cutting investigative reporting.
    2. Turned to publishing corporate press releases almost verbatim
    3. Began regurgitating Reuters/AP feeds for national/international stories instead of doing original reporting
    4. Slashed local reporting in favor of the economies of scale of publishing the same news across multiple markets.
    5. The owners and editors began spinning everything from a partisan perspective.

    All of these things were done, of course, to maximize profits by cutting costs or pumping up mindshare through sensationalism.

    Online sources of news/information, however, are evolving to a quality that's much greater than what the old media ever had. Let me explain:

    What's happening with information online is happening to the process that we here on Slashdot already know works with similar public goods like Science and FOSS and Security. Let's call it "Peer Review." Yes, there's a lot of dross, but what's good quickly floats to the top.

    And there might not be a single online site where you can get top-quality information on all topics, but that's fine. "jack of all trades, master of none" and all that. But there are at least several I know of that are worth the time: Slashdot for general geek news (I love reading an article about, say, cryogenics and then seeing posts from professionals who actually work in that field); Tom's Hardware; Stratfor for political/international/international relations. There is a lot of aggregation/regurgitation from the MSM, but increasingly from the primary sources journalists wouldn't bother to check or feign to understand as well as original research.

    And if anything puff-piece-ish shows up on those sites, it almost always gets shot down in flames almost immediately. That wouldn't happen in the MSM, where the echo chamber picks up and repeats errors 10 million times so that when the real information does come out, it gets ignored because everyone's sick of hearing about it.

    If the MSM were to sit down collectively and send all their reporters, journalists, and editors to re-education at the BBC, which was and still is the best that the old media had/has to offer, then they might have a shot at relevance. But they won't, and they'll vanish, and good riddance.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  26. Re:Call me when my rabbit can crap on the internet by HAKdragon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, if you've ever seen the comments on youtube videos, you know it's definitely possible to, as you put it, defecate, on the internet.

    --
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
  27. Re:Ha Ha by Dan+Schulz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For God's sake, my friends that are in highway patrol just decided yesterday they will stop any car with Clinton bumper stickers and find a way to give the people driving a ticket or send them to jail. If that's the case then they should lose their jobs. Putting personal politics above the law is not and should not be a part of a law enforcement official's job description. Especially when it can cost the city/state hundreds of thousands or even millions of taxpayer dollars on unlawful arrest lawsuits that could have easily been prevented had the officers in question shown some self restraint and done their jobs in the first place - and left their politics at the door .
  28. Re:Ha Ha by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most people do not realize that in small towns, most Newspapers are weeklies, not dailies. In small towns, away from the lights and cameras of CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, the weekly Newspaper is about the ONLY source for LOCAL news.

    If it's a small enough town, I would probably infer that not enough happens in the town every day to justify printing an entire newspaper. Besides, if one of the 2000 townspeople discovers the mayor in shenanigans, word of mouth will spread the news faster than a daily newspaper. If one of the 2000 townspeople murders another, word of mouth will spread that news too. There's no need to print how the high school football team played last night because everyone who cared went to the game. The entire idea of newspapers (and other mass media) is that human populations had scaled beyond what word of mouth could reach. In small towns this isn't the case, so it's not surprising to see the newspaper beleaguered there.

    --
    In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  29. Re:Ha Ha by Brickwall · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I love my morning newspaper. I have a 1 hr+ commute to work by public transit, including the subway where wireless signals basically suck. A newspaper section is a lot lighter and easier to handle than a laptop, and don't ask me to download news to a handheld; I don't want to hit the scroll button every five seconds.

    I enjoy the opinions of various columnists, and the letters to the editor, as well as the mixture of local, national, and world news all aggregated together. Studying the financial pages is a lot easier with the newspaper - when you open up the two page spread, you get an information spread about twice the size of the average computer screen, which you can scan more quickly than the computer.

    Finally, my paper includes a cryptic crossword,sudoku,bridge problem,and chess problem. The only one of these I've ever found online is sudoku, and I find working them with pen and paper is much quicker than doing them online. So I get a lot of value for $16/month for 24 papers.

    --
    What was once true, is no longer so
  30. Thoughtful content is not going away by Sir+Holo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I recently subscribed to the NY Times. Paper. It has what most if not all online outlets lack - care in writing and researching.

    I also subscribe to several paper monthlies. These are generally funded by foundations that are somewhat immune to the vicissitudes of consumer choice. If the ads dry up, they can continue to deliver well-researched articles, albeit fewer. Or they may go to an NPR-type of model.

    Most of these also have blogs, in which comments tend to be far more thoughtful than the average blog. With the immediate communication of teh internets, hot news from the higher-noise blogs can quickly find its way to every other blog. People who value their time will gravitate to those blogs with better signal-to-noise ratios.

    Blogs are not going away, but neither are the well-researched papers and magazines.

  31. Re:Ha Ha by tezbobobo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, you're a little wrong. A newspapers printing cost is not in a vacuum. I relies on the greater marketing strategy. There is no way a company like IBM is going to advertise on a local news website. You must get local advertising. To get that you need to show your reaching people in your local area. Click-throughs are great, but not as convincing as saying, "We print 100,000 papers and deliver them to all newspapers in the northern metropolitan area.

    Advertising is of fundamental importance, it allows the employ of journalists, graphic designers, printers, admin, call centre staff. Modern newspapers are more about the overarching marketing and advertiser strategies as about news.

    People have been predicting the death of the newspaper for a while and it is true that major newspapers are saving a large amount of revenue by going digital. The ball game is entirely different for smaller publications.

    PS I am currently Production Manager for a large local publication with a publication run exceeding 120,000 and have worked in newspapers my entire adult life.

  32. That's one hell of a flashback mate. by Sri.Theo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Did you ever leave the 1980's?

    Electing a socialist president was the first step to falling under communist influence? You mean how the UK, France, Norway, Sweden etc. all elected socialist governments at some point during the Cold War? Were they all destined to fall under Soviet influence?

    And you're right the blame for Iranian autocracy doesn't solely fall to UK/US foreign policy however when you consider that they were responsible for destabilising an emerging and [b]fully functioning[/b] democracy you have to raise some objections - especially as there were no other justifications apart from oil interests, its a pretty disgusting episode in both of our nations history.

    Oh and the people of Iran never became 'religious nutjobs' they overturned a blatantly unjust government (partially our fault remember) with the only alternative at the time that wouldn't splinter the country. Iran is a huge multi-ethnic country and Islam is one of the few common strands that ties all those disparate groups together.

    And you realise your final paragraph is basically a restatement of 'the domino effect' which is pretty much bullshit, and the Soviet Union was never going to control the whole world. And there's no [i]perhaps[/i] about it. It is immoral to install dictators and subject people to totalitarian rule. And it was pretty much a ineffective wherever we tried it as it lead to huge resentment from the populations of those countries when they eventually freed themselves.

    Which is why South America has such close relations with the UA nowadays. If we use the exact same tactics as those we label our enemies, what makes us any better then them?

  33. Concern with blogs. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A big concern I have with blogs is that many tend to perpetuate particular mindsets, and run stories so filtered that they're essentially untrue or at least, highly exaggerated. People inevitably gravitate towards like-minded individuals. Despite the fact the internet can provide a wide range of views many people end up reading only what agrees with their own beliefs.

    I feel like people are getting increasingly polarized and narrow-minded and I think blogs, at least in some ways are helping to contribute to that. Get on some blogs and post even the slightest dissenting view and be prepared for a shit-storm of unimaginable proportions. They don't even want to consider an alternative.

    On a fairly regular basis I'll visit some blog where the author interprets a particular news story. And of course news is cherry-picked to reinforce that author's particular messages. And as is often the case links don't direct a visitor to the original story but rather to yet another blog which essentially is saying more of the same. Most people aren't going to bother digging for both sides of the story.

    I'll concede, however, that blogs are an immensely useful tool; they're a great alternative to the mainstream media. What I really look forward to is their continued use as a way to keep corporations, governments and other organizations in check.

  34. Re:you are presupposing some things by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Informative

    Read al franken's lies and lying liars.

    there is a very vast right wing propaganda machine.

    It's very well funded by a coterie of wealthy individuals with a vested interest in spreading the right wing socioeconomic agenda.. especially the economic end.

    So they watch fox, they turn off fox and turn on the radio, where rush limbaugh greets them.. they spin the dial again and there's hannity, they spin it again and it's neil--"obama supporters are vapid people responsible for american idol"--boortz. They then go pick up a paper and its the wsj editorial column, etc. etc. Then the previously neutral media is contaminated by all of this because the pace of news today means at best cursory fact checking, even for major stories, allowing this complex rumor mill to foist anything short of the outright absurd into the main stream media.

    Again, franken's book has several chapters on this, and from what i've witnessed it's pretty accurate

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  35. Re:Ha Ha by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Before we ousted their democratically elected President and installed a puppet of our own choosing, Iran was a SECULAR country in every modern sense of the word (i.e. women went to school, women were doctors, gays didn't get publicly executed, etc.), the only crime they had committed was that they nationalized their own oil fields and kicked out British Petroleum. That's when everything started going to hell. And that's only then that the religious nationalist nut-jobs rose to power.

    And how is it useful to bring up 50-year-old talking points like this? It makes the point that "America is bad". Ok, point made. You think America is bad, partly because of stuff that happened 50 years ago.

    Do you have anything to say about the future? How is "America is bad" a useful observation on which to build a future? Do you think the solution to the problems in Iran is for all the Persians to pretend it's 1940 again and everything will work out grand?