Slashdot Mirror


College Board Kills AP Computer Science AB

jhealy1024 writes "The College Board recently announced it will be getting rid of the Advanced Placement Computer Science AB examination after May 2009. The 'A'-level exam will continue to be offered, though there is no word yet on what will become of the AB-level material (e.g., if it will be merged into A or just dropped). Many teachers of AP CS are upset about the move, as it seems the decision was made without consulting members of the CS teaching community. As one teacher put it: 'this is like telling the football coach next year is the last year you have a varsity team.'"

322 comments

  1. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by mikek2 · · Score: 1, Funny

    GOD created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
    Gays cannot reproduce!! They must recruit!! Say NO to the gay agenda!!!! i really really really hate people.
  2. Waving the white flag by alfredo · · Score: 2, Funny

    You don't need advanced skills to flip burgers.

    --
    photosMy Photostream
    1. Re:Waving the white flag by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

      That's taught in BC.

    2. Re:Waving the white flag by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      You don't need advanced skills to flip burgers.

      You do need them to program the burger flipping machines of tomorrow.
      So get cracking and "Welcome to the world of the FUTURE!"

    3. Re:Waving the white flag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need advanced skills to flip burgers.


      You do need them to program the burger flipping machines of tomorrow.
      So get cracking and "Welcome to the world of the FUTURE!"

      What? Indian programmers aren't good enough?
    4. Re:Waving the white flag by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      No, Mexican schools program the burger flipping machines of tomorrow.

    5. Re:Waving the white flag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia the burger flipping machines of tomorrow program YOU!

  3. Without AB? by nebaz · · Score: 3, Funny

    How am I supposed to get 30 lives in Contra?

    --
    Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    1. Re:Without AB? by alfredo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Cheat like everyone else.

      --
      photosMy Photostream
    2. Re:Without AB? by nebaz · · Score: 5, Funny

      Also, without AB, I'd just be normal.

      --
      Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    3. Re:Without AB? by CSMatt · · Score: 1

      Use the Internet?

    4. Re:Without AB? by crispin_bollocks · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fortunately, there will still be Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right-ABAB-Start

    5. Re:Without AB? by default+luser · · Score: 2, Informative

      I feel obligated to explain the above joke, because nobody with mod points got it in over a day of posting.

      Without ab, I'd just be normal.

      ab-normal?

      IT'S FUNNY, LAUGH!

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

  4. This is a shame by vsage3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I took computer science AB when I was in highschool and it was a great class if you looked past the god forsaken code project you had to modify that had something to do with fish. I learned all about algorithms, data structures and other important topics that I would not have gotten formal exposure to until, well, never because I didn't major in CS. One huge drawback is that it's taught in Java now, which is absolutely terrible for learning the fundamentals (I took it when it was C++)

    What is the biggest shame is this course was hugely popular in my tech-oriented highschool: Like 50 people took the AB exam every year out of my class of 120 or so. While I understand TCB is trying to cut the cost of making unpopular exams, keeping computer science A is a joke because AB wasn't all that fast and A doesn't even count for credit at my university; It's basically just a waste of time.

    1. Re:This is a shame by jorghis · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I keep hearing people say things like "course X used to be in C++ and now its in java and thats bad". What exactly is it that is so great about C++ for learning fundamentals that you dont get in java? The only thing I can think of is understanding pointers and how memory is laid out. But that really falls outside the scope of algorithms and data structures which is what intro level CS is really all about.

    2. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Part of the problem is that with Java, you have to learn class/object semantics up front in order to be at all useful. This clouds the lessons of the fundamentals in ways that simple structured language semantics do not.

      Another part is that Java already has reasonable solutions in the standard libraries for any fundamental structure. This makes all work purely academic. This isn't necessarily a big deal, but can affect motivation.

      Also, understanding pointers and how memory is laid out is a pretty fundamental thing, wouldn't you say? If we lose that, then any mid- or low-level language becomes esoteric.

      I think it makes much more sense to teach starting at the mid-level (C, C++-without-classes, perhaps even a modern flavor of Basic or Pascal) then radiate outwards to both low-level (ASM) programming and higher-level (C#, Java, Delphi, etc.) languages, as well as to non-C-likes (LISP, Haskell, etc.).

    3. Re:This is a shame by Rallion · · Score: 1

      Have you ever watched a group of people who started in Java try to allocate memory correctly? I have. It's not pleasant.

      You're right. Understanding basic memory management is not within the scope of algorithms and data structures -- it's a prerequisite for it. Imagine trying to write a linked list class -- a pretty basic type of data structure -- without fully understanding how to free up memory.

    4. Re:This is a shame by robizzle · · Score: 1

      This is a shame. However, I know my university doesn't accept credit for either portion anyways.

      I actually took the AB test the last year the course was C++ and when I got to college it was a pain to get credit -- they had made a policy to no longer accept credit once the course was switched to Java and even though I took it while it was C++, the policy was now in place.

    5. Re:This is a shame by BlueCollarCamel · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what APCSAB exam you took, but the one I did, 2007, I was required to write and recognize various data structure manipulation algorithms, such as sorting or searching. The standard libraries didn't do any good for me, as I couldn't use them.

      Granted, you do have a point about pointers. But seeing as I only took the exam to see how well I understood the material, I'll get to learn about pointers either on my own or at Uni this fall.

      --
      1&1 - Cheap domain and web hosting.
    6. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit.

      No one needs to know about memory management by hand because, practically, no one can do it more effectively than the compiler. The reason is simple: processors are too complex to do this by hand. Look at the recent paper at Super Computing 2007 on making code run fast on the Intel/AMD/Sun/Cell platforms and you'll see how absurd this argument is. To do effective manual memory management you need to block for each level of the cache, the TLB, the register file, and for the memory sub-system of each core. If you're not going to do this on a per-architecture level (e.g., differently for every processor type) then there's really no point. They did, but they wrote perl scripts to generate thousands of different programs and compare which one worked best.

      Assembly programming is worthless unless you're writing drivers or designing architectures. And virtually no one does either of those.

    7. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I didn't take AP CS--it wasn't available to me in the 80s, when I was in high school. I'm just speaking CS education in general.

      The same arguments apply for early undergrad courses, which have also moved towards Java in many schools (probably the real reason the AP courses have moved too).

      I do understand that you have to learn the algorithms, despite the presence of the standard libraries. I'm saying some of the impact is lost when you know there's a perfectly good built-in solution right over there.

      To be fair, the same is true for C++ and the STL, which is why I'm a fan of C for initial language learning. It's low-enough level that there's not a lot of functionality built in, but still reasonably platform-generic.

      Frankly, I still prefer (modern) Pascal over C. The readability factor is nice for teaching. However, it's so out of vogue now in the US (Delphi is still reasonably popular in Europe and Asia) that it's difficult to make a case for spending a lot of time in it.

    8. Re:This is a shame by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      Well, you seem to be assuming that they'd be writing this linked-list class in C++. If so, I'd agree, if you take people who've only learned Java and tell them to implement a data structure in C++, the results won't be pretty, unless of course you teach them some of the fundamentals of C++-style memory management.

      Now, if they were making this list in Java, I don't really think they'd have much of a problem...

      I took AP CS AB the first year it switched to being taught in Java, my initial college CS course was data structures in Java, then C++ the next year, and now it's operating systems using C, and human-computer interaction where we're mostly using C#.

    9. Re:This is a shame by plasticsquirrel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Java is an object-oriented language. In any real object-oriented language, you need to learn about objects right away. C++ is a hybrid language that is arguably one of the worst languages for beginners to learn, since it takes the ugly details of C, and adds on half-baked OO ideas that are simply optional.

      A language such as Scheme will teach better program design, and teach high school students good program design from the start. The problem with teaching programming in high school, and even at the university level, is that students are often taught convoluted language semantics (every detail in C++) rather than program design and logical reasoning. Scheme is simple to the point that it can be picked up in a day or two, and then the rest of the class could focus on real problem-solving. This is the MIT approach, with their intro course (6.001).

      --
      Systemd: the PulseAudio of init systems
    10. Re:This is a shame by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      Well, I took it after the switch to Java, and the fish were still around. It's not an awful way to teach some of the fundamentals of how the inheritance hierarchy works, but it just looks so stupid. I've never really been a fan of Karel the robot either, so whatever...

      My school didn't even offer a computer science A class. I suppose you could've taken the normal (AB) class and then sat for the A exam, but I don't think I knew anyone who did that. At my college, a 4 or 5 on the AB exam gets you out of just the most basic Java-based "intro to programming" class. The class you end up taking instead is basically the same type of material as the less-trivial portions of AP CS.

    11. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      When I got my CS degree it went like this:
      1. 1. Pascal (basic structured programming)
      2. 2. Machine & assembly language (CPU architecture)
      3. 3. C and C++ ("high level" CPU programming)
      4. 4. Then last was Java, Lisp and other languages (abstract programming)


      I didn't learn a damn thing in college though. I had already learned all that on my own before I even hit high school.
    12. Re:This is a shame by plowfunkel · · Score: 1

      In my experience, it is confusing C++ pointer/memory allocation rules that primarily drive students away from the language and toward Java/C# in the first place (or, God forbid, away from programming entirely). While Java is a little heavy on object semantics, these allows for the quick implementation of interesting and powerful applications. The very small jump required to go from command line to the GUI in Java compared to the MFC/WPF/Whatever else silliness with C++ is enough to keep students interested. Memory allocation instruction has its place, but that place is quickly diminishing. An introduction class on programming should be fun and empowering rather than needlessly tedious, and I think Java accomplishes this well.

    13. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between managing your application's memory, and memory/opcode micromanagement. Any programmer should know what's going on with their application's allocated memory, even if they are trusting libraries to deal with it. If you don't know what -should- be happening, you never catch breaks in the libraries.

      Generally, though, I agree with you. Practically, writing in assembly or doing anything similarly low-level is likely to be less efficient than trusting the compiler.

      However, I still think ASM-level programming should be taught because it breaks down operations to the most granular level. It also gives some level of exposure to the lowest level of programming, and allows one to figure out if that sort of thing is right for them.

      You do need to have some number of people who know how to do this. They're the ones who write compilers, debuggers, drivers, and embedded code.

      Embedded architectures, in particular, are probably going to be a increasingly large market for programmers. I doubt there'll ever be a One-True-Architecture that can cover all the hardware permutations, so some degree of low-level knowledge will be needed.

    14. Re:This is a shame by mikael · · Score: 1

      In my course, entry level CS consisted of Hardware Engineering (logic gates, communication with hardware (ports, memory maps), while Software Engineering consisted of data representation, sorting, hashing, file formats and input algorithms. How are you going to learn about things like linked lists, doubly linked lists, binary trees, binary file formats, if you don't understand how memory is organised and referenced?

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    15. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's the thing:

      It's computer science, not applied programming. Those two things are different, but the latter has been sold as the former, more and more.

      I hear what you're saying, and you're making good arguments for Java as a beginning applied language. In my college days, it was VB that they used for that, for many of the same reasons (except there was no command line at all).

      However, I think a beginning computer science course should start at a somewhat lower level. It's important to understand the why and how, not just the what, and I think that should be introduced from the beginning.

    16. Re:This is a shame by TaliesinWI · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or you could take AP Pascal, like I did in H.S. (Class of 1992). Problem is, they pretty much had to have the math teachers draw straws to see who got "stuck" with the ten brainiacs who took the course, and you also had stuff like "Pascal has bad string handling because it's a math language" (which isn't technically true) and then you find out that it doesn't have a built-in function for doing anything other than square or square root. You had to code your own exponent function, which wasn't a big deal, but it made you wonder why they bothered with a built in half-assed function in the first place.

      Also, we did it completely wrong IMHO. We learned the material that was on the A part of the exam for most of the year, which was basic structured programming, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary. Then, for the last MAYBE two weeks, we tried to learn what was on the B part, which was (mainly) stacks and pointers. For one thing, that was kind of bolted on to Pascal back in the day. For another, you can't really teach this "this is why you should care about this" in a mere two weeks. You can spit out a few examples in a vaccuum and hope that your students regurgitate them, but in our case that went so poorly that I think out of the ten of us in the class - all of which had 3.8 (unweighted) GPAs or higher, over half of us didn't bother taking the AB and of the other fraction of the class, only two of them got a 3 or higher on it, which was what the colleges wanted for credit. The rest of us (me included) were perfectly happy to "relearn" how pointers and stacks worked in a freshman college level C course.

      Problem is, that was right when OO was kind of taking off, and everyone and their fucking sister was trying to bolt OO philosophy into EVERY CS course, even when good old-fashioned procedural thinking would have been fine. So you weren't learning C, you were learning just enough C so they could teach you C++...

      Sometimes you just need a hammer and not a super-duper compressed nail gun.

    17. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 1

      Mine wasn't much different. Structured programming in Turbo Pascal for the first year, then branched out from there. You had advanced structures classes taught in C, basic OOP taught in C++, and CPU/architecture taught in ASM.

      After that, you branched into the more esoteric or higher-level languages including, at the time, the just-emerging Java.

    18. Re:This is a shame by hattig · · Score: 1

      We started off with Functional Programming - ML to be precise. This was 12 years ago when I went to University.

      The reason? As you wrote, lots of people had learned standard stuff before, and this would give a level playing field for the most part at the beginning.

      After that it was Modula-3, which changed to Java the year after.

      The C course was about all the places you could trip up in C, and pointers. It was assumed that you could learn it on your own otherwise.

      There was also some Prolog.

      Most of the courses were mathematically based, with a healthy dose of systems and OS stuff. The programming was a small overall portion.

      I'd done Pascal at high school (UK 6th form - age 16 - 18).

      Of course, I'd also learned BASIC and Z80 assembler way before then, even a bit of 68k :)

    19. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Unfortunately, my high school didn't really have much of a computer science program, so no A.P. Pascal for me.

      In that time period, you would've been using Turbo Pascal, probably TP6. It would've actually been fine for what you were learning (the pointer/memory model was pretty much taken straight from C) if they'd paced it better.

      I agree, re: bolting on OOP to everything. I'm big on OOP, but I think you need some time without it to see what the optimal uses really are.

    20. Re:This is a shame by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      "Well, you seem to be assuming that they'd be writing this linked-list class in C++"

      They might and they might not. If they learn in Java, and things are cleaned up for the, they will not learn ( except on the job ) about how to do that clean up. If they end up in a C++ type environment, they will do poorly, at least for a while. If they learn in C++, they will learn to clean up, continuing in C++ will not be a difficulty, transitioning to Java will not be as traumatic as the other transition.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    21. Re:This is a shame by mawillia · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually,

      Our AP CS class back in the 80's had nothing but 3 commodore pets and one MicroVax running some flavor of Unix (thank god!) tied to 12 VT-100s. We were living high on the hog.

      We spent the first 6 months learning first to hand assemble code for the Pets and program it using their built in screen based memory editor. We had to write simple multipliers/dividers, etc. It required learning about memory, registers, and basic ALU structures.

      Only after this point were we "graduated" to the MicroVax and were given the choice of working with C or Pascal. I'll tell you what: no-one complained about having to learn vi(1), and everyone appreciated the power of a good compiler and why higher order languages were wonderful inventions.

      To this day, that course was by far the most valuable class regarding computer programming I've ever taken. It really has provided me with a great deal of appreciation of what's already been done for me in terms of tools.

      I happen to work on embedded systems, with C++ when I can, C when I need to and assembly when nothing else will do. I've met a lot of college grads that just cannot work in the embedded world with nothing but Java courses from their college background. There's a lot of software out there running on OS's (or not) that don't provide run-times with built in garbage collection, etc.... I'm not sure that's such a bad thing...

    22. Re:This is a shame by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      I took the AB exam in '98. In Pascal no less (last year it was offered in Pascal). Was the only AP CS student in the school. Only had one CS teacher, and all three years were taught simultaneously. This had it's share of upsides and downsides: 1. You had to be really motivated at a personal level to achieve anything in those classes, as you got at best 1/3 instructor time directed at your class. 2. If you weren't the one at the top of the pile, there was a great support structure in place. In order to alleviate 1 to some extent, students were expected to assist those in the lower classes, which encouraged those in the higher classes to understand the material more fully. "If I am busy with another student, CS 1 students please ask a CS 2 student; CS 2 students please as the AP student; and Don, you're on your own. =)" 3. The AP class largely consisted of a copy of the case study library, and a list of topics on the exam, which I was asked to devise a series of programming assignments that I felt were "interesting" and made use of the items in question, which were then approved by the teacher (and in one case our network admin since I used some inline ASM to write network code), things like writing some code that played blackjack where the cards were actual objects in a stack, just to have an excuse to abuse some stack code. Ended up going to our local science and engineering fair for bonus points (something she offered every year -- this actually tripped up her grading scale for me however, as she offered a flat number of points to everyone and neglected to notice that I had *MUCH* fewer maximum points available). Did a three man "group project", and everyone from our school who attended got 2nd place in something: we got 2nd group project, my gf got 2nd place comp sci, and the other girl who joined us got 3rd place comp sci and 2nd place in something else (I honestly forget what).

    23. Re:This is a shame by Torvaun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You forgot reverse engineering. Assembly is really the only decent way to do that, presuming you don't have the source.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    24. Re:This is a shame by Hemogoblin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I also wrote that exam in C++, and I must have written it at the same time as you because we also had that fish case study. Ironically, my teacher didn't tell us about the case study until a week before the exam. Instead of working on the case during the semester, I spent 99% of my time creating my own text adventure. Making my own game was great, because I kept having to learn things so I could add more functionality. I don't think I ever learned any subject quite as well; it's amazing how motivated you can get if you enjoy the activity. In the end, missing out on the case study didn't hurt me, since they provided all the code for the case at the back of the exam anyway.

      Perhaps the exam is unpopular due to the way the course is taught. If I was forced to work on that case study all semester, I definately would not have learned as much as I did. Maybe the AP board needs to cut the exam, restructure the program so it's more fun and interesting, and then re-release it.

    25. Re:This is a shame by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm saying some of the impact is lost when you know there's a perfectly good built-in solution right over there. Huh. As long as your teacher doesn't let you use the built-in classes until you've written your own, I think it doesn't really matter. And if you never find out about their existence until you've already written your own LinkedLists, Stacks, Trees, HashMaps, etc, you now have a perfectly working class to use for other things and know how the class works behind the scenes.
      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    26. Re:This is a shame by RKBA · · Score: 1

      Bah humbug. All these high level languages like C++, Java, Assembly language, machine code, etc., are all just a waste of time. If you want kids to learn how real computers work, they should be learning a real language like Verilog!

    27. Re:This is a shame by Jurily · · Score: 1
    28. Re:This is a shame by jfp51 · · Score: 1, Funny

      I will see your Verilog and raise you an Intercal!

    29. Re:This is a shame by LeafOnTheWind · · Score: 1

      I took the AB exam last year and I can say that they had a question that required you to implement a very elementary modification of merge sort. I cannot see how this would be different in C++.

      Note: I have taken and received a 5 on both the AB and A exams. I found both exams incredibly simple, but the A exam, although i was taking in sophomore year, was truly laughable. Honestly, if they remove the data structures and algorithms portion of the exams, I see no point in the exam any more. BTW, the "fish" study you were talking about is called MBCS (Marine Biology Case Study). It was replaced this year with a GridWorld project that is even simpler (and MBCS was easy...).

    30. Re:This is a shame by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      How objects and methods and what-not work is just as important, perhaps more important for computer SCIENCE (as opposed to computer programming) than learning algorithms.

      With C++ they have the option of building classes the old way, with structs and manual management of all pointers, or they can start to work on classes, and templates of classes, and with Managed C++, awful as it looks, they can even toy with more general stuff as they implement garbage collection and other concepts.

      That path allows them to steadily progress from low level to high level, or the other way around if the teacher likes, and they do it all using one set of very similar languages. C to C++ to Managed C++ is very easy to do in a short time once the syntax is learned.

      Honestly, it's BS to me that you can say Java is -just as good- when it obscures the very idea that you're dealing with chunks of memory. It's very much the wrong idea to teach these young students that everything is safe and garbage collected and done for them, and then introduce them to the real world where programs have memory leaks, bugs, are written in esoteric languages or their garbage collector is forcefully disabled because of improper reference use, or in general, the fact that the rest of the world doesn't use Java nearly as much as education.

    31. Re:This is a shame by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      The nice thing about java, in my opinion, is that it's got a cross platform GUI library. I'm not sure how many introductory classes use Swing, but it's nice to have around.

    32. Re:This is a shame by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      In my day we had to use Rubylith and stone knives, and we liked it that way.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    33. Re:This is a shame by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Also, understanding pointers and how memory is laid out is a pretty fundamental thing, wouldn't you say?

      Exactly! Even in Java, if you don't understand the difference between duplicating an object vs. operating on a reference, your code could easily be really slow (because you're making 10,000 copies when you don't need to) or wrong (because you're overwriting data and don't realize it). Paying attention to memory is important!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    34. Re:This is a shame by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      How times change. In 1968, MIT's introductory computer course taught FORTRAN. Much of the learning struggle involved batch processing and FORTRAN's peculiarities and strict format rules.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    35. Re:This is a shame by GaryOlson · · Score: 2, Funny

      Our Agricultural Placement class back in the '80s had two Border Collie pets running around some flavor of sheep (thank God!). Our wagon was tied to 12 draft horses; and we were living with the hogs. We spent the first six months learning how to assemble our ropes..... Now git out of my corn field, you young whippersnapper!

      --
      Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
    36. Re:This is a shame by Alternate+Interior · · Score: 1

      It's my sincere hope the courses stay, despite the disappearance of the AP test. I look the A exam in it's final year as C++ as a Junior, and got a 5. Of course, being the A exam, it was not good for credit even at my state college. But the content they taught there carried well into Computer Science 251 (which, by then, was Java) course. It was easily the most informative course I took through all of High School. In fact, since then, learning Scheme was the only useful exercise I've do in generic computer science. It took working with MVCs in web development to get the full usefulness of objects. Using them purely for organization never conveyed their purpose. AP as a test, in general, is not really worth the effort. The curriculum is far past anything I ever experienced in the equivalent college course, schools are loathe to hand out credit on the tests. The courses should stay, and just relabel them Honors. Losing the test is no great loss.

    37. Re:This is a shame by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, the MIT course has switched to Python.

    38. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The only thing I can think of is understanding pointers and how memory is laid out. But that really falls outside the scope of algorithms and data structures which is what intro level CS is really all about.

      Understanding the concept of indirection — by which I mean here one piece of data that refers to another — is absolutely fundamental to understanding non-trivial data structures. It doesn't have to be done with pointers: the recursive data types in functional programming languages would be another way to look at some common cases, for example. But you have to understand the idea, and you do not learn that using cookie-cutter container class libraries and a language that actively obfuscates pointers.

      This is not to say that C++ is a good language for teaching computing of any kind. C++ is a pragmatic tool, a Jack-of-all-trades, useful for many practical things but very confusing to a beginner and full of tricky details. I'd much rather they used, say, C and Python for a course at that level. But Java was never a sensible teaching language: it has pretty much all of the bad points of C++ in this respect, yet none of the redeeming features. Moving to Java as a primary teaching language is one of the dumbest moves in the history of teaching CS, and I've never understood why so many otherwise reputable institutions lost the plot on that one.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    39. Re:This is a shame by theuedimaster · · Score: 1

      "Another part is that Java already has reasonable solutions in the standard libraries for any fundamental structure. This makes all work purely academic. This isn't necessarily a big deal, but can affect motivation."

      C++ does too in their standard libraries.

    40. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before Java was the AP language, C++ was the AP language, and before that it was Pascal. The shift from Pascal was motivated by a desire of the colleges that the incoming students have OO experience.

      When the shift from Pascal to C++ went into effect, I was teaching at the local community college. That summer all the local high school AP teachers enrolled in my Advanced C++ course. No matter what I did to promote the use of objects and classes, the AP teachers found a way to use a singleton design pattern, no other objects or other classes.

      Based on what the College Board cited as the reason to quickly change from C++ to Java, my experience must not have been too unique. So the summer of the C++ to Java change, I had the same AP teachers as students in my Advanced Java class. Again, they showed a remarkable ability to exclusively use the singleton pattern, but were forced to at least understand objects for the libraries they used.

      I hope the Pascal influence eventually left the AP teaching core.

    41. Re:This is a shame by neomunk · · Score: 1

      I'm in, if you guys can make change for an Ada and a COBOL.

    42. Re:This is a shame by slapout · · Score: 1

      Perhaps because for simple things you could fall back to C. Of course, then you'd lose the advantage of OO, but maybe when you're starting it, OO could actually get in the way.

      --
      Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    43. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You not knowing proves the point. Though, I wouldn't brag about C++...

      And no, I won't explain it to you. If you care, go study and figure it out.

    44. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I won't speak for other schools, but at Cornell the first language taught is either Java or Matlab. After that first semester, you get another course in Java. Even then, a lot of kids take functional programming (OCaml/F#) before FINALLY taking Computer Organization or Systems Programming (C and Verilog).

      Maybe you'll dismiss this as anecdotal, or a special case, or whatever, but judging by the number of (and quality of) employers that recruit here, I am having a hell of a time understanding what the hell is so hard about learning data structures and basic algorithms using Java or another entirely managed language. I agree that good programmers should (and do) understand what is going on "under the scenes" in a managed language, and the way Java interfaces with the machine (and is compiled) is taught early on, but it's definitely not necessary for a first (or, second or third) course in computer science.

    45. Re:This is a shame by mgbastard · · Score: 1

      It's computer science, not applied programming. Those two things are different, but the latter has been sold as the former, more and more.

      Yes, YES, HELL YES. Thank you. Abstractions leak.

      I suppose programmers are needed too though.

      You COULD earn a true CSE degree if you want to be recognized for having some chops based on your degree. Too bad so many universities have merged the lesser Computer Science programs into their engineering departments (shouldn't those students be in the business school or something?). What kind of engineers they are graduating in OTHER disciplines...

      --
      Anyone seen my low uid? last seen 10 years ago while panning the #@$# out of Taco's 'web based discussion system'
    46. Re:This is a shame by epee1221 · · Score: 1

      Have you ever watched a group of people who started in Java try to allocate memory correctly? I have. It's not pleasant.
      Right, and I started off using BASIC for 10 years, so it's a wonder I can code at all, right?
      --
      "The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
    47. Re:This is a shame by njl_ · · Score: 1

      Java is an object-oriented language. In any real object-oriented language, you need to learn about objects right away. No you don't. I gave my kids a template class with a main function. When I started talking about functions a few months later, they all went, "Oh, wow, OK, I get it."

      C++ is a hybrid language that is arguably one of the worst languages for beginners to learn, since it takes the ugly details of C, and adds on half-baked OO ideas that are simply optional. The problem with C++ is that it is just too damn big. Oh, and it's no longer relevant. I forgot about that.

      A language such as Scheme will teach better program design, and teach high school students good program design from the start. The first language you learn frequently affects how you look at programming for the rest of your life. I've seen too many people write FORTRAN with C, Scheme with C++, or Perl with Java. Making the first programming language a functional language seems unwise.

      This is the MIT approach, with their intro course (6.001). Most kids taking 6.001 already know how to code. I'm just saying.
    48. Re:This is a shame by feijai · · Score: 1

      Java, Python, Ruby, and C# all seem to have no problem constructing linked list classes without any mention of freeing up memory. Hell, Lisp has singly linked list nodes as its primary data structure: the CONS cell. On top of which nearly the entire syntax of the language is built. So tell me dear sir how you "free up" memory in Lisp. Allocating and deallocating memory has nothing to do with building data structures. It has everything to do with building data structures in primitive languages before good garbage collection was available.

    49. Re:This is a shame by Rallion · · Score: 1

      It is definitely true that if somebody goes on to actually write software in C++ or a similar language for a living, or even as a hobby, they will eventually get the hang of proper memory management, and I want to make it clear that I realize that.

      The two most common progressions I have seen are people who first learn C or C++ then learn Java, and the reverse. I have noticed a couple things.

      First of all, people seem to have the same amount of trouble learning the first language, whichever of those two comes first. C++ is generally "harder" and it does much less for you. Some things are less streamlined, the documentation is not as nice. You don't have that cool unified Java class library to draw from.

      Meanwhile, for somebody learning Java as a first language -- even as a first OO language -- there are problems. A basic understanding of OO is pretty much a requirement for creating your own programs in Java, but in my experience really grasping OO is extremely difficult for most students if they don't have some simple function-based coding experience first. There's a sort of chicken-and-egg scenario there. It's difficult to understand OO without a little understanding of non-OO code, but Java doesn't provide any help in that area.

      Obviously, people get over those issues, and usually very quickly. I'm just saying that in my experience the initial difficulty seems to be about the same.

      Everybody's already discussed the ease of moving from one to the other to death. Moving from Java to C++ is difficult. You have to become more involved with things you didn't even have to think about before. People have a lot of trouble understanding the role of header files. Obviously memory management is a huge can of worms.

      Moving from C++ to Java is actually kind of nice. You get to ease up on the memory management, you get access to the library (which is way nicer than the so-called standard C libs). It allows you to focus more on complex algorithmic details while people who learned in the other order are still trying to get the language itself down. I've also found that it gives you a better feel for the differences between lower- and higher-level languages -- speed and efficiency of execution balancing against speed and ease of creation.

      People will learn what they need to know one way or another, I know. It just seems like starting with Java forces it to take more time and effort than it needs to.

    50. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UC berkeley starts out in scheme, too.

      but really, until you have to actually program a real world problem, does it matter what language you are taught a cs concept in? for a beginning cs course on data structures, isn't it more important to learn about the data structures and different programming paradigms than what particular language you learn it in? i first learned cs in java, but we never even made a GUI until the last month of class and our teacher asked us what we wanted to study since we finished all the material; yes, i do realize that's probably an exception for a java course. but until you do real world problems or create a program to actually release, does it matter whether you learned about linked lists, arrays, and BSTs in java or c++? in either class you should have learned enough to be able to implement it into whatever paradigm(and language) you need.

      yeah, some classes might be easier to learn it in than others, but you should still learn the smae things in both classes since the point of the class is data structures and not program language x.

    51. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our AP CompSci teacher was a hoot in several ways. For one, he regaled us with a tale of taking a Pascal course at the local college, and how he was exempted from his final exam because his professor told him, "Your students regularly beat mine at programming competitions." Of course, having known the (older) students he was talking about, I knew that had nothing to do with our teacher.

      Then, as we approached the AP, we got the following:

      (Draws diagram on board) "This is what a hash table looks like. I don't know how they work or what they do, but they seem to show up on the AP exam every year, so you'll probably want to look them up on your own."

      A year later, in a college CS exam, they explained a hash table on the last page of the final exam and asked us to code one.

    52. Re:This is a shame by mckniffen · · Score: 1

      Right now, I'm taking AP Comp Sci AB on the online class

      The code project now deal with Bugs and is called gridworld. Its Still just as terrible mind you.

      --
      Communism, its a party!
    53. Re:This is a shame by Curien · · Score: 1

      Far from being a "nice thing", GUI is nothing but a distraction in the context of an introductory algorithms course (which is what the AP CS course is). Learning how to deal with asynchronous user interaction has its place -- but when you're trying to learn big-Oh, trees, and the trade-offs between the well-known sorting algorithms, dealing with a GUI is just a waste of time.

      --
      It's always a long day... 86400 doesn't fit into a short.
    54. Re:This is a shame by mckniffen · · Score: 1

      Honestly? The only reason I've been able to succeed "learning java" in the high school environment is that I've been doing OOD in C++ since middle school. I Honestly think think the level of abstraction in Java makes it closer to a basic than a C type language, just because the syntax is similar, java is focused around useless programming practice. e.g. I got a 0 on an assignment because I referred to static methods by class name rather than an instantiation of a class. I tried that in C and the compiler complained! My experience says that computer science doesn't belong in a high school environment unless its independent study. My teacher does nothing to teach other than assigning reading, I feel bad for the kids who think the teacher is going to teach them, because its really just BS work adding stress onto something I enjoy

      --
      Communism, its a party!
    55. Re:This is a shame by Curien · · Score: 1

      No one needs to know about memory management by hand

      Unfortunately, no matter what language you use, you MUST learn to deal with resource management. True, garbage collection nicely solves a subset of the resource management problem, but it's a depressingly incomplete solution that, IMO, encourages a false sense of security.

      Oh, how I long for scoped object lifetime and the power of the RAII idiom in Java! Finally blocks are a poor substitute.

      --
      It's always a long day... 86400 doesn't fit into a short.
    56. Re:This is a shame by Rallion · · Score: 1

      BASIC? Actually, IMO, its simplicity makes it the perfect starting language. I think that an ideal progression would start with BASIC (for a very short time, perhaps, just to learn the most basic programming concepts), then move to something like C or C++, then possibly to Java or some other similar high-level language.

      I can see why one might expect me to think of it as "Java-like," due to the ease of use. However, in the ways that matter for teaching and learning I would definitely say that it's more like C.

    57. Re:This is a shame by Curien · · Score: 1

      I'll see your 5 on the A and the AB, and I'll raise you a 5 in two different languages (Pascal for the A, C++ for the AB). Interestingly, the case study was the same in both languages (a BigNum library).

      As far as the switch to Java from C++ goes, manual memory deallocation issues are just a red herring. There's no use of polymorphism in the AP curriculum, and they proscribed the use of their own "apvector" template container instead of arrays (basically a clone of std::vector, but this was back in '99 when a lot of folks were still using horribly pre-standard compilers).

      The switch to C++ had been in the works for years, and then the year it happened, they announced that they would be switching again to Java. My teacher told us that at the conference where they made the announcement, they stated it was because colleges were more frequently using Java. ETS had always had a problem with the AP CS exam getting accepted -- the usual excuse was that it was in the wrong language (like that matters). So they were trying to jump languages to try to get more folks to accept the exam for credit (and hence entice more students to take the exam).

      --
      It's always a long day... 86400 doesn't fit into a short.
    58. Re:This is a shame by Curien · · Score: 1

      Now, if they were making this list in Java, I don't really think they'd have much of a problem...

      Consider a linked list where each node contains an open file handle. Memory isn't the only resource you have to manage.

      --
      It's always a long day... 86400 doesn't fit into a short.
    59. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got a 0 on an assignment because I referred to static methods by class name rather than an instantiation of a class.
      Uh... what you did is how you're supposed to do it. Static members don't belong to any instance of the class.

      My experience says that computer science doesn't belong in a high school environment unless its independent study.
      No, your experience says that CS/programming shouldn't be taught by people who don't know it themselves.
    60. Re:This is a shame by JonSimons · · Score: 1

      I wish I could mod parent up.

      Scheme is absolutely a better pedagogical choice.

      Northeastern University also uses Scheme in their introductory course (see How To Design Programs).

      By the end of my first semester, I was using functions as first class values. Throw in functions as member data of structs, and you have objects. The gradual transition to full-fledged Java was an absolute cinch the second semester, as has been the transition to learning any other language after being exposed to the functional concepts of Scheme.

      I only wish more people could "see the light".

    61. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read comments like this, and I really start to wonder what am I am missing from learning Java first before C or C++; I understand how the memory is laid out, how to prevent memory leaks, pointers and references, deconstructors and constructors in c++ and Java(yes, there is a deconstructor method called finalize()). I have learned several functional and logical languages, and I am quite adept at several languages.

      It is not the language that people learn that really makes a computer science program "good"; A good program teaches how to solve problems, without being bounded by platform or language; it should teach it's students to adapt to new system with ease, because technology changes, and we must too. Just because I had a degree doesn't mean I should stop learning.

      In defense of Java, most jobs out there right now are looking for Java or .Net programmers more then C++ or C programmers; Java is more type safe then those two languages, compliers will throw errors if you try to pass an int as an Object. You get a stack trace of call to pin-point where the error occurred in Java, without knowing the debugger, instead of getting the dreaded segmentation fault as you do in C and C++. Syntactically Java is cleaner then C++, without the need to maintain multiple header files.

      Now put yourself in the shoes of a first year student trying to master arrays, and you forget to initialize the array; in Java it will give you will get a descriptive exception telling you that you got a NullPointerException, and tells you the line, in the source code, where the error occurred. In C or C++, you get a segmentation fault -- best error description ever! You might say to yourself, well why don't they look over the code, and they will see that they forgot to initialize the array; As someone who has spent a lot of time helping out first year students and marking programs, students tend to get very discouraged when the computer tells them that they have an error; Its easier to show them how to read the stack trace that Java gives, then to explain to them all of the possible reasons that they might get a segmentation fault.

      And to not teach students memory management right off at the bat, is not big deal. The lower languages will never become esoteric, we need them there is no doubt in my mind about that; but that is what other courses such as Operating Systems, Systems Programming, Computer Architecture, and other courses like those are for. Instead of overwhelming students with everything off the bat.

      I guess the point I am trying to make, is that a good Computer Science program it SHOULD NOT MATTER what languages it is taught in; what should matter is the concepts and the critical thinking. Whats the faster search algorithm? What is the best sort? How do I know which algorithm scales-up the best? What is the best data structure to use in certain situations? how do I solve this problem? How do I manage being a team of 10, working through 10-50 thousand lines of code and collaborate with 20 other teams?

      I am tired of hearing people say that the language makes a good programmer, because it is not. To me this is "my dick is bigger then yours" argument; do you know what? Your dick may be bigger but at least I know how to use mine.

    62. Re:This is a shame by pclminion · · Score: 1

      Those poor intro CS students, they might be forced to learn how... a computer works. Sure, we can throw around all the famous quotes about how "All you need to do computer science is a brain and something to write on" but at the end of the day we're graduating people now who don't understand what the hell a byte of memory is. That scares me.

    63. Re:This is a shame by BungaDunga · · Score: 1

      I wish my school had a CS class. That would be sweet, I didn't even know there was an AP Computer Science test. We barely even have an AP Calculus BC class, because there's just not much interest.

    64. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, don't worry, we've moved onto bigger and better things. Now we're using bugs. (Like, cockroaches and beetles. Although I'm sure some of my fellow students are using both kinds of bugs throughout their code.)

      I'm taking the AB test this May, actually, and I think it's pretty stupid they'd take out the A because, from what I've heard, it's pretty damn easy.

    65. Re:This is a shame by Rallion · · Score: 1

      That's my point. A decent programmer really should at least have a basic understanding of what is going on when their program runs. A person that never writes a program that doesn't have a GC running in it really should understand what that GC does and why. Memory management is a fundamental aspect of coding, and the fact that we do have fairly good tools to handle that annoyance for us for some applications doesn't change that. There are times when automatic garbage collection is a terrible solution, and a good programmer will recognize that problem and understand how to get around that.

    66. Re:This is a shame by Wordplay · · Score: 1

      Sorry if you read it as a bigger-dick contest. I don't mean it that way. I like Java too.

      I just feel that some languages guide students one way, some languages guide students another. You're right that a sufficiently interested student, or sufficiently well-crafted program can transcend any language. Still, some serve education better than others.

      One other aspect of Java I didn't bring up before, but possibly relevant here: starting students out on something as "thick" as Java sets them up to, well, believe in magic.

      By that, I mean there's a whole lot going on behind the scenes that they can't reasonably understand for quite awhile. Essentially, it's starting out with an attitude of "trust the framework," with "analyze the framework" coming later.

      For reasons I'm not sure I can fully articulate, this bugs me. I think a healthy sense of paranoia about framework and library solutions is good in a programmer. I certainly think that one should think twice about using something if one doesn't know how it works.

      Again, this is a difference between applied programming and computer science. In applied programming, you should generally just trust the framework, or you never get anything done. But the best programmers I know are the ones who'll trust-but-verify.

    67. Re:This is a shame by The+Cydonian · · Score: 1

      Hasn't. Will be, this fall.

      Sad. :-( SICP was one of the best courses I ever took in univ; I'm sure I sound like an old-time when I say this, but without Scheme, there is no SICP.

      .
    68. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are write about memory management being a big factor; however, let me expand a bit. The reason teaching C/C++ is better is because you are giving them the memory management lesson, which is an important lesson to have. In addition, I can pick up a Java program (having only minimal exposure and no teaching in it) and actually work with it. Now, take the Java programmer who NEVER worked with C/C++ and watch how long it takes him to completely screw up his memory management.

    69. Re:This is a shame by forgotten_my_nick · · Score: 1

      > Another part is that Java already has reasonable
      > solutions in the standard libraries for any
      > fundamental structure.

      As does any other programming language out there.

      > Also, understanding pointers and how memory
      > is laid out is a pretty fundamental thing,
      > wouldn't you say?

      Well duh, and if you studied Java you would know this as well. In Java pointers are called "references" and everything except primitives are in fact pointers. The only difference is that you don't have to worry about allocating/deallocating memory. Sure you can learn how the memory is laid out but for starting off that stuff is pretty much not needed. Its like saying that beginners must know how registers works in assembly before you can code in C.

      Incidentally BASIC/PASCAL/C are all high level languages.

    70. Re:This is a shame by electrictroy · · Score: 1

      That's not funny. That's insulting to the parent.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    71. Re:This is a shame by mangastudent · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, the MIT course has switched to Python.

      Except that most of what was in 6.001 will be taught in Java in the new 6.005, which for its type of material is Not Even Wrong.

      Even the AI course will be switched to Python. Very soon, the MIT EECS undergraduate curriculum will be entirely purged of Scheme/LISP, although due to some furious demand (especially outside of the department, since 6.001 is generally useful while the new introductory curriculum is strongly focused on both EE and CS) there is talk of a reduced, 3/4 size return of 6.001. Someday. Maybe.

      I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the MIT computer science program permanently.

      As a Chemistry major who was fortunate to take 6.001 about the last time Sussman gave it, I'm not sure what to think about the changes. Programming languages and the content of 6.001 are the only things that I find really interesting in CS, and I think it's hard to deny that we're in a Dark Age in this general area.

      And perhaps MIT is redefining what "CS" means in a good way, it's just not anything I'm very interested in, nor qualified to judge. Ableson and Sussman fully support the new curriculum BTW, and Hal has been heavily involved in the development of at least 6.01. Sussman has always believed introductory EE and CS should be taught together, and 6.01 and 6.02 most certainly do that.

      On the bright side, the new introductory course 6.01 (don't know if this is true about 6.02) is very instructor intensive, enough so that they are enlisting all interested upperclassmen to help in the labs and such, which I think is a very good thing; you don't tend to really learn your subject until you try to teach it.

      And with enrollment down so sharply, there are now likely enough professors and graduate students to support these new intense courses; MIT's historical practice of not allowing a fashionable department to get "too big" is once again validated (think of areo/astro in the '70s). The much lower enrollment is an opportunity to teach in a very different way, with more emphasis on building things, an MIT tradition from its founding.

      But it is safe to say that an MIT CS or CS focused degree (most students do the combined major that is heavy in both) will mean something very different in four years.

    72. Re:This is a shame by electrictroy · · Score: 1

      I learned Turtle (elementary school), Atari Basic (video game), Commodore Assembly (1980s: on my own), TI Basic (high school course), and some Pascal and C++ in college courses.

      More recently I learned VHDL and Verilog for my hardware engineering requirements. None of these languages seem all that difficult to me. All a person really needs is to learn "how to think logically & solve problems". After they learn to do that, they should be able to handle any language.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    73. Re:This is a shame by SunTzuWarmaster · · Score: 1

      I feel like I can adequately address the issue. I took AP CS AB as a Junior. They switched it to Java for my Senior year, and I took it again.

      With Java, you do not get the understanding that you gained with C++. The first C++ programs were simple, and you could get started right away with function code (Hello World). The first Java programs are a formidable challenge for someone that has not addressed the issue between puclib, private, static, inline, etc. yet, because all of those are required fairly quickly.

      The course material for Java then turned into more GUI design and web development, while the course material for C++ turned into data structures and memory management. This is bad. The first complicated lessons in CS should be about how memory is allocated, and the fact that Java does much of that (not all!) for you means that when CS people are taught Java, they do not learn about it. Pointers, memory addresses, and function pointers barely appear in the coursework at all.

      I am an Electrical Engineering major now, and my senior design project (I graduate in 3 weeks!) uses a microcontroller (as does almost everyones). Without a firm basis in pointers, memory management, structures, and function pointers, this project would be impossible.

      Am I disappointed that I took Java? No! Not at all, I have used Java for a number of things, such as genetic algorithms, which are higher-level that required. However, I am not along in thinking that todays students interested in Computer Science should start with the lowest language possible. That language is assembly. Due to processor difficulties and lack of relevance, assembly cannot be taught at the high school level, so the next best choice is C or C++. A language such as Java, Matlab, Python, Perl, PHP, or even LISP is too high up for a student to get a firm understanding of the basics of how a compiler works, how an assembler works, and so forth.

    74. Re:This is a shame by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1
      From an old article on Java education

      Marc Loy, a Java instructor and coauthor of O'Reilly's Java Swing, points to the ease of building graphical applications as one reason Java is well suited for an instructional language. "Beginning students can build real, live windows with buttons as they learn programming. This is a tremendous leap forward from the command-line interactions of old C, Pascal, and Fortran programs," said Loy.
      Since these interfaces look much like the applications students use everyday, they get a better grasp of the fact that they can write real programs if they stick with it. Loy added, "That ability to motivate the student to want to know more is also a key to Java's usefulness in the classroom." Introdutory classes are always a compromise between reaching out to the potentially unmotivated and sticking to the basics, though.
    75. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad MIT canned 6.001 in favor for 6.01 (which uses Python).

      After getting a CS degree from MIT, I realize that I hate Scheme and it really didn't teach me much that I use today. I think the combination of 6.046 (algorithms) and 6.170 (software engineering, though they use Java) really taught me how to be a good software engineer (and not just a good programmer).

      The ironic part is that 6.046 and 6.170 no longer exist. They are now "dumbed down" and offered as 6.006 and 6.005 respectively. Most of the material is intact but there's more hand-holding involved.

      In any case, here's my 2 cents on the topic: I think it's silly to remove the AB exam (options are always good for students), but I think Collegeboard realizes that not many students take the exam (when compared to how many take the A exam) so it makes sense in the end. People who take the AB course are more likely to do CS and people who take the A course are more likely to just want to learn programming and I think the second set of people is much larger than the first. To use the MIT analogy again, it's like comparing the number of people who take 6.170 vs the number of people who take 1.00 (intro to programmming, also done in Java). Roughly 50% of all of MIT takes 1.00 a year (so that's like, what? 2000 people?) whereas the entire CS department takes 6.170 (once again, I think that's somewhere around 300 or so).

    76. Re:This is a shame by jandrese · · Score: 1

      The other advantage of Scheme is that there is absolutely no chance it will be useful outside of the classroom, so you can be sure the entire exercise is academic. Scheme is a lot like basic Pascal in that it's missing enough features that nobody will ever try to use it for a real project and you don't have to worry about your students discovering those features and writing programs in a completely different way than you intended.

      Maybe I just hate scheme because my professor would deduct one letter grade if he was able to cause improper operation of the program with invalid input, and automatically fail you if he could crash it ungracefully (you didn't catch the error). Have you ever tried to type check input in Scheme, or verify the structure of a file? It's not fun.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    77. Re:This is a shame by DavidHumus · · Score: 1

      They should use J instead.

      I'll just mod myself "flamebait" here to save everyone some time, but I'm completely serious. The J language (see "jsoftware.com") will seem bizarre and intimidating to those of you who are computer literate*, but it's a great way to cut the chase and start actually using the computer instead of wading through unessential language junk. It's interpreted, so you get immediate feedback, and it incorporates a lot of important concepts succinctly.

      *Computer Literate, adj.: Tame, tractable; willing to compensate for software deficiencies. - Gerald Weinberg

    78. Re:This is a shame by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Actually, the MIT course has switched to Python.

      That's great! I found Scheme to be the most useless language I've ever learned (and this includes FORTRAN, which was far more useful to me!) On the other hand, I use Python every day to solve real problems. Even if I don't use Python for months, I can generally get back into it in about 1 day.

    79. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      C++ is a hybrid language that is arguably one of the BEST languages for beginners to learn, since it takes the BEAUTIFUL details of C, and adds on half-baked OO ideas that are simply optional.

      there, fixed that for you.

    80. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I learned Flash Actionscript as an extension of graphic design when I was 15. In my senior year in highschool, I took AP CS AB (in Java) and scored a 5. I had an introductory programming class the year before with Java, and didn't really find CS AB a stretch. I learned C++ going through college, and think it would have been a lot easier to learn than Java.

      The main thing about Java is the boat-load of libraries that you have to learn. Also, direct memory access simply makes some tasks, like serialization, much less cumbersome.

    81. Re:This is a shame by kris_lang · · Score: 1

      Coward of Anonymity:

      6.170 is the E.E. design course, which in the mid 80's meant creating hardware instantiated Robotron or centipede etc.

      6.070 is the C.S. design course.

      Did you forget or did you never go?

    82. Re:This is a shame by Workaphobia · · Score: 1

      It's the old argument about whether or not it's a good idea to expose students to object oriented programming before they even understand procedures. Personally I'm against it, and I dislike Java, but there's nothing fundamental about Java that prevents you from teaching the same curriculum as you would in C++.

      --
      Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
    83. Re:This is a shame by jayp00001 · · Score: 1

      C++ is a hybrid language that is arguably one of the worst languages for beginners to learn, since it takes the ugly details of C, and adds on half-baked OO ideas that are simply optional.


      While I'd agree it's not the best language to teach programming skills in, Scheme doesn't even qualify. While C is ugly it does have the abilty to use a regular non-OO syntax and structure and allow students to develop and understand algorithm creation and proper implementation. Scheme is 100% about OO and cannot easily teach those skills. Java similarly (but not as easily) can at least accomplish those tasks as well. OO software design should not even be discussed until after the basics are firmly in place. I would like to see more pascal type languages used for intro courses. The syntax is extremely simple and verbose variable and function names are encouraged more easily than C (mainly because the keywords are less terse). Scheme (while it has it uses) is most certainly not noted for readability, and if you read the MIT text from the course, you'll notice how they praise how terse or succint any given line or procedure is.
    84. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh... dude... have you ever watched a group of BASIC programmers try to allocate memory correctly? It's no more pleasant than the Java people.

    85. Re:This is a shame by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      I dunno, sounds like the wussification of the MIT undergrad curriculum to me. Back in the day, my friends at MIT used to bat me over the head with how my Harvard education sucked because I didn't have to suffer through a manly class like 6.001. While our intro CS 50/51 classes may have been a modest step down, CS 121 (Theory of Computation) kicked their equivalent class' ass. :)

    86. Re:This is a shame by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      I dunno, sounds like the wussification of the MIT undergrad curriculum to me. Back in the day, my friends at MIT used to bat me over the head with how my Harvard education sucked because I didn't have to suffer through a manly class like 6.001.

      Well, Harvard's undergraduate education in general and CS in particular may not "suck" because of this, but ... there's no comparison in either. E.g. a friend who got a CS degree there in the end of the '80s said the only general math requirement at Harvard was proving you could do algebra. Whereas you cannot escape MIT with any major without a full year of the calculus (what most schools would cover in a minimum of three semesters) and calculus based physics (mechanics and E&M).

      He was taking Harvard's famous "honors calculus" (at least the first term (which is no longer available)) and had wanted to go to MIT for the CS, but his father made him go so Harvard so this was overall a pretty big thing for him....

      While our intro CS 50/51 classes may have been a modest step down, CS 121 (Theory of Computation) kicked their equivalent class' ass. :)

      Entirely possible; any school can have a strong class or area. Did Harvard's CS department evolve out of its extremely strong math department? CS departments like that tend to be strong in theory for obvious reasons. All I can remember is the Mark I stuff which was quite applied, and I took your intro CS course in 1978 in the Summer School which was an excellent general programming introduction but wasn't attempting to be a foundational degree class.

      However, if you look at the new 6.01, you'll quickly realize this change is not "wussification", quite to the contrary, it could easily be more difficult. Mostly, it's different, much more applied (robots), more pure engineering, which is the sort of thing you'd expect from both MIT and an EECS department that obviously evolved from an EE vs. Math department.

      Now, with 6.170 being terminated (haven't heard any inside stories about that, last time I checked it was planned on being part of the new curriculum, but maybe they ran out of hours) and replaced by unknown as of now 6.17x courses, who can say, but based on what I now realize is out of date information "wussification" was not part of the plan.

      The big motivations were to make the introductory core courses (6.01 and 6.02) both more interesting and a total integration of CS and EE, whereas the old longer core block of 6.001-4 had essentially no integration until you got to 6.004 (which did not have 6.003 as a prerequisite) and was very abstract in comparison.

      Whereas in 6.01 you get your hands on virtual and real robots fairly quickly (you start out learning the basic 6.001 material in Python), learn some calculus beyond the first required course (which is AP Calculus BC), and it is intended to be in the fine MIT tradition of being "just barely possible" (to accomplish; rough paraphrase followed by a direct quote).

      It's certainly more intense than 6.001 in that the latter had no prerequisites while 6.01 has the 2nd term of physics (E&M) as a corequisite (and therefore first term calculus and physics as prerequisites---no way could you do this course without a solid foundation in mechanics), plus you have to prove you have some minimum programming ability.

      6.001 makes experienced LISPers sweat blood; I'm not sure I could do 6.01 at all (hard to say since I wouldn't want to take it in the first place, my interests here don't go beyond CS (which is why a lot of people are screaming for a return of 6.001)).

      Wait till 6.01 settles down and is captured by the Open CourseWare people and try it out, you might find it to be fun if unlike me you like EE a lot.

    87. Re:This is a shame by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      I took computer science AB when I was in highschool and it was a great class if you looked past the god forsaken code project you had to modify that had something to do with fish. I learned all about algorithms, data structures and other important topics that I would not have gotten formal exposure to until, well, never because I didn't major in CS. One huge drawback is that it's taught in Java now, which is absolutely terrible for learning the fundamentals (I took it when it was C++)


      Which, IMO, is also terrible for learning fundamentals, about as bad as C++, though for slightly different reasons. When I took it, it was taught in Pascal, which was not too bad, IMO, for learning the fundamentals, though if someone asked me today what language I thought should be used at that level, I'd suggest Scheme (using more with the How to Design Programs approach than the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs approach.)
    88. Re:This is a shame by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The first language you learn frequently affects how you look at programming for the rest of your life.


      Given the fundamental role of the lambda calculus, that makes using a language that directly expresses it a good idea.

      I've seen too many people write FORTRAN with C, Scheme with C++, or Perl with Java.


      Insofar as that's a problem at all, its a problem the other way, too.

      Making the first programming language a functional language seems unwise.


      Given the increasing importance of functional languages, to the point where other languages are evolving in the direction of adopting more of their features, I would argue that making the first programming language not a functional language or one with strong functional programming features would be unwise, from a vocational programming point of view (which seems to be your concern expressed above.) OTOH, given the fundamental role of the lambda calculus, I think teaching a first computer science using a language like Scheme (or another member of the Lisp family, though Scheme is probably the best learning language in that family) makes a lot of sense.
    89. Re:This is a shame by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The J language (see "jsoftware.com") will seem bizarre and intimidating to those of you who are computer literate*, but it's a great way to cut the chase and start actually using the computer instead of wading through unessential language junk.


      Just looking at it, it seems to have a rather peculiar, unintuitive syntax, and to use lots of symbols in ways which conflict with what people will expect from use outside of programming even moreso than most programming languages. It seems, contrary to your description, to be filled with unintuitive "language junk" that must be waded through to get at meaning.

      It's interpreted, so you get immediate feedback, and it incorporates a lot of important concepts succinctly.


      The first isn't really a special feature: you get an immediate environment with that capacity for immediate feedback with Ruby, Python, many Scheme implementations, Erlang, and too many other languages to lists. And the second, well, perhaps "succinctly" (in seems to be fond of two character operators), but certainly not intuitively.

      *Computer Literate, adj.: Tame, tractable; willing to compensate for software deficiencies. - Gerald Weinberg


      Ah, yes, way to pre-emptively insult anyone who disagrees with you.
    90. Re:This is a shame by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      What exactly is it that is so great about C++ for learning fundamentals that you dont get in java? The only thing I can think of is understanding pointers and how memory is laid out. But that really falls outside the scope of algorithms and data structures which is what intro level CS is really all about.

      To my mind, understanding pointers -> understanding how memory is laid out -> understanding structures. You don't start kids learning algebra just because they can use a calculator for addition thru division.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    91. Re:This is a shame by mangastudent · · Score: 1
      Mr. Lang, it is your memory that's off, you've got the course area and the scope of one of them wrong.

      6.170 is the E.E. design course, which in the mid 80's meant creating hardware instantiated Robotron or centipede etc. 6.070 is the C.S. design course.
      From the course catalog as of when I write this:

      6.070J Electronics Project Laboratory

      Introduction to electronics test equipment such as oscilloscopes, meters (voltage, resistance inductance, capacitance, etc.), and signal generators. Emphasizes individual instruction and development of skills, such as soldering, assembly, and troubleshooting. [...] Intended for students without a previous background in electronics....

      If you've never held a soldering iron before, this is the course for you.

      6.170 Laboratory in Software Engineering

      Introduces concepts and techniques relevant to the production of large software systems. [...] Topics: modularity; specification; data abstraction; object modeling; design patterns; and testing. Several programming projects of varying size undertaken by students working individually and in groups.

      This of course is your traditional Software Engineering course as that phrase is known in the industry. Was taught in CLU when I first learned about it and was changed to Java at some appropriate point. Will not be offered as such in the future, but that may be OK with 6.001 material being distributed into 6.01 and maybe 6.02 plus 6.005, and 6.005 being rounded out with more traditional Software Engineering material. I can see a new 6.17x that does a bit more SE plus the projects.

      It's worth 12 Engineering Design Points, and MIT EECS for as long as I've known it (late '80s) has had a major philosophical difference with the accreditation organization for it. EECS does not believe you can teach design per se, it must be in the context of actually designing things. So each accreditation cycle the department shows that for each major, the required subjects accumulate enough design work. So one way or another the projects of 6.170 or the like will be replicated in what replaces it.

      Hmmm, maybe they'll provide a wider range of domains? Once nice thing about the two new core courses is that they along with 6.004 (which will be retained although slimmed down to 12 units as I recall) will set up a graduate for a embedded career very nicely. That's damned good, since if you want to stay a salaried programmer that's about the only safe domain past age 35-40. Not everyone wants to start a business or become a consultant (or a manager :-) when the conventional programming career path is over....

    92. Re:This is a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aha. You are correct indeed, says ms lang.

      My memory remembered the majors as 6.1=EE and 6.3=CS, so I misremembered
      6.070 as 6.170 substituting in {6.1} as EE.

      My apologies.

      Who are you mangastudent? When were you there?

    93. Re:This is a shame by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      Aha. You are correct indeed, says ms lang. My memory remembered the majors as 6.1=EE and 6.3=CS, so I misremembered 6.070 as 6.170 substituting in {6.1} as EE.

      And there's 6-2, which is both and is what most students in the department take today. There are very few 6-1s now, don't know how many 6-3s.

      There's absolutely no mapping I'm aware of between the designations for majors and the course (class) numbers, besides all of Course 6 starting with 6 of course ^_^.

      Who are you mangastudent? When were you there?

      As for the first, that would be telling. As to the second, I'm a very early '80s undergraduate, but finances prevented me from finishing more than 3 semesters; having rich white trash parents was fatal for the higher education aspirations of my siblings and myself. Unfortunate that avoiding the free rider problem leaves people like us out in the cold....

      I did a critical block of IT work for the department in the late '80s and have kept in close contact since then. 6.001 is all I've taken from them (after reading the Lambda the Ultimate papers), I'm otherwise academically an ... eclectic chemist, you might say.

    94. Re:This is a shame by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Oh, my, God. Did you just call Scheme an object-oriented language?

  5. Good! CS is a pseudo-subject anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Time to bring it back under the umbrella of mathematics where it belongs.

  6. Part of the problem by Tragek · · Score: 1

    is that outside of the US it's next to impossible to find an AP CS class. So, while interest may be there, it may not be there inside the US and so the College Board runs into a catch-22.

    I'd love to see the per year increase-decrease stats across all the AP subjects. It would be interesting to see if it correlates to the apparent decline in the sciences across the US.

  7. Bright side by weston · · Score: 3, Interesting

    CS instructors at the high school level will have much broader latitude in what they teach. You could go a vocational route (say, Rails), or a different theoretical route (say, The Little Schemer).

    I also think it's possible that the contents of AB need to both go into A. It's been a long time since I took them both (1989), so things may be different, but my recollection is that the contents of A alone really weren't much beyond pragmatic familiarity with basic imperative programming, the kind of stuff that your basic "Teach Yourself X in Some Ridiculously Short Period of Time" book can actually teach you.

    That said, if what they're doing has the effect of dropping the study of data structures and algorithms from the high school curriculum -- if dropping B really means there will be less CS in the classroom -- then this is a really poor move.

    1. Re:Bright side by samkass · · Score: 1

      I took is in 1990 and at the time it was probably the hardest test I'd ever taken. But I got a 5 and I think I learned quite a bit from it. But my HIgh School had already dropped it from their curriculum, so the group of us who wanted to do it got together and did it Independent Study. Of the original dozen folks, 4 were still in the class at the end. Two of us got 5's, and two got 1's. The High School decided that was evidence the independent study didn't work, and the next year's students didn't even have that option available. After that point the only computer-based learning available was either basic Microsoft Office types of stuff or the CAD/CAM, plotters and one manufacturing robotic arm in shop class. Needless to say, shop class became surprisingly popular among geeky kids in 1991.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    2. Re:Bright side by LeafOnTheWind · · Score: 1

      The AB exam is Data Structures and Algorithms. This is elementary computer science and should be part of the repertoire of any CS student. Granted, the test was simple, but any programmer who cannot implement a tree and not say its efficiency is not a good programmer.

    3. Re:Bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I took it in 1998, the last year it was given in Pascal. I hadn't done Pascal in years by the time I took the test. My high school didn't even offer the class, but I made special arrangements to take the test anyway based on my general programming skills. The only preparation I did was about half an hour of studying from some sort of test prep thing the night before the test. I got a 5 (out of 5).

      It seems like a useful enough test, at least so that people who actually know what they're doing can get past the mindless "here's a variable declaration" entry-level classes in college. The fact that there's an A test which is somehow easier boggles the mind, and it's insane that they're keeping that one (which has to be truly pointless, I just can't imagine what it would actually cover) but ditching AB.

  8. HS Computer Science by Goobergunch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I suspect that this decision won't help the current paucity of valid Computer Science courses in high schools. I'm still annoyed by the number of Microsoft Office or HTML courses that get passed off as CS. On the other hand, I guess it's possible that this could encourage more people to take APCS A (as there would be no real two-year commitment as there can be now), which would be a good thing. Hopefully some of the AB material can be folded into the new A course, as it would be a pity to lose AP-level high school instruction on big-O algorithmic analysis and data structures.

    1. Re:HS Computer Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I studied, AP CS AB was one year... and a good chunk of it was missing because the test was in early May (school year ends late June).

  9. Who really cares? by Blibblob · · Score: 1, Informative

    Doesn't matter much anyways. When I got to college the only thing that the exam would've given me credit for was a basic computer class. So I was forced into taking about four classes full of content that I had taken before. Two algorithm classes, a java class and a basic C class that was introduction to programming in general. It's just the idea that they teach as though nobody has ever programmed before. Things would work better if everybody was split into two groups.

  10. Demographic reasons? by Goobergunch · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I found this in another article on the subject and thought it deserved mentioning:

    Mr. Packer said the decision was made principally because of demographic considerations.

    Only a tiny fraction of the members of underrepresented minority groups who take AP exams take the tests in one of those four affected subject areas, he said.

    The College Board has made it a priority to reach such students, including those who are African- American and Hispanic.
    I can understand the College Board wanting to concentrate their resources a bit more, but I still don't think that slashing the curriculum is the way to do it. Of course, maybe I'm biased -- my high school APCS courses were great and I don't think we got much of anything from the College Board in the way of support.
    1. Re:Demographic reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr. Packer said the decision was made principally because of demographic considerations. Only a tiny fraction of the members of underrepresented minority groups who take AP exams take the tests in one of those four affected subject areas, he said. The College Board has made it a priority to reach such students, including those who are African- American and Hispanic.
      That's an idiotic reason to drop the courses. Of course minorities are less interested in Latin literature and Italian. Why does that mean the courses have less value?
    2. Re:Demographic reasons? by thejuggler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not encourage more African-American and Hispanics to take more CS courses? Then these courses will meet their educational objectives.

      Instead, their response is to punish those that wish to learn so they can look like they are helping minorities.

    3. Re:Demographic reasons? by Nudo · · Score: 1

      I agree. I'm Hispanic, and I think underrepresented minorities should be encouraged to take CS courses (and science courses, in general), but don't lie about it and make it an excuse to cut those classes just to meet your "commitment to diversity".

      --
      This is a signature. Bow to me.
    4. Re:Demographic reasons? by CSMatt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Instead, their response is to punish those that wish to learn so they can look like they are helping minorities. Later in life they call this Affirmative Action.
    5. Re:Demographic reasons? by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      I posted a similar response somewhere else in the comments, but this decision is pretty upsetting.

      This looks like a pretty thinly veiled attempt to "juke the stats" and save some money at the same time. They don't have to administer a few relatively unpopular exams, and they get to claim an improvement in demographic equality.

      This seems to be the direction of United States education as a whole. In the quest for "equality," the solution seems to be to just lower standards and opportunities across the board, instead of examining the problems that leave minority-dominated schools underfunded and higher-level programs overwhelmingly monochromatic.

    6. Re:Demographic reasons? by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      I personally do not think any racial demographic has any bearing when it comes to education and learning material for supposed college credit.

      To say it does implies that niggers, spics or honkeys aren't as good as the other races in certain subjects. I find that view (even aptly called affirmative action) as reprehensible. Your ethnic identity does NOT indicate your intelligence level.

      As for my color, I am a person who can think. That's all that matters.

      --
    7. Re:Demographic reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Affirmative action helps white males the most out of any race or gender. It's because white females would have pushed the males out due to the girls' higher test scores.

      Next time do more little research before you criticize.

    8. Re:Demographic reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except affirmative action doesn't bar the minorities from those same opportunities.

    9. Re:Demographic reasons? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Next time do more little research before you criticize. Take your own advice. Counterexample: black males.
    10. Re:Demographic reasons? by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      That's an idiotic reason to drop the courses. Of course minorities are less interested in Latin literature and Italian. Why does that mean the courses have less value? You guys are getting yourselves all worked up over nothing. It was purely a money decision. All the talk about minorities is an excuse (and it doesn't make much sense, which is why I'm surprised you guys fell for it). Business as usual...
    11. Re:Demographic reasons? by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Only a tiny fraction of the members of underrepresented minority groups who take AP exams take the tests in one of those four affected subject areas, he said.


      Directing their limited resources in ways that proportionally help minority groups is an admirable goal in general. I think its horribly misapplied here though. In the case of CS, the lack of minority students (US citizens at least) going into the field is in and of itself a huge problem. Actually, "huge problem" isn't strong enough. Its a national disgrace. That is the problem that needs to be addressed. Admittedly, this is more an issue for schools than the College Board. But removing AP support doesn't seem like a helpful move. For a smart but poor kid that's now one more expensive college class they are going to have to borrow money to take.
  11. I took AP CS A by JimboFBX · · Score: 5, Informative

    I took AP CS A and got a 3 on it. When I applied into college they told me I should take the introductory course because most people who got a 3 on the AP test and skipped it would fail the next step up.

    I skipped it and the next step up was extremely easy. When I was writing my review of that class I told them I could have learned almost everything they taught me in that semester in a week.

    Just goes to show what trash the grader was on the AP test. They probably thought all of my lower case 'j's were 'i's, and probably marked me down for declaring new variables anywhere but the beginning of the function. To put it in perspective, a 3 is supposed to be the same as a C in college, yet I went through college never getting a C in anything and getting predominately A's and B+s in most CS classes- even the ones with a 90% failure/drop-out rate.

    Part of it is that the teacher of my AP class, a female cheerleading coach (no kidding), was a decent teacher and could get you to learn a concept like new data structures or pointers in 20 minutes.

    1. Re:I took AP CS A by monoqlith · · Score: 1

      I took the AB exam when it was in C++ and somehow managed a 5, even though I swear I couldn't even read the code I was scrawling. My handwriting was terrible, and on top of that our class hadn't finished studying the material. Our class was a joke, and we spent most of our time playing games. During the exam, I had a headache from all the iteration I was trying to work through in my head, I'm pretty sure I misunderstood some of the questions. I really don't think I penned syntactically correct code at all. Maybe if the exam were graded in pseudo-code it would have been correct algorithmically. Perhaps the grader, seeing my handwriting and not wanting to slog through the mess, just gave me the benefit of the doubt and marked it 5.

      This, combined with your experience, points to maybe some serious irregularities with the College Board's grading system.

      Or maybe there are other explanations. Perhaps they gave me the wrong person's score. Sigh.

    2. Re:I took AP CS A by Zarel · · Score: 1

      I took the AB exam when it was in C++ and somehow managed a 5, even though I swear I couldn't even read the code I was scrawling. My handwriting was terrible, and on top of that our class hadn't finished studying the material. Our class was a joke, and we spent most of our time playing games. During the exam, I had a headache from all the iteration I was trying to work through in my head, I'm pretty sure I misunderstood some of the questions. I really don't think I penned syntactically correct code at all. Maybe if the exam were graded in pseudo-code it would have been correct algorithmically. Perhaps the grader, seeing my handwriting and not wanting to slog through the mess, just gave me the benefit of the doubt and marked it 5.

      This, combined with your experience, points to maybe some serious irregularities with the College Board's grading system.

      Or maybe there are other explanations. Perhaps they gave me the wrong person's score. Sigh. I took the AB exam two years ago, when it was in Java, and got a 5, despite spending 45 minutes reading the fish thingy we were supposed to read ahead of time, and not having time to fill in in a bit more than half the answers (I don't like filling them in while I'm answering questions, so I just mark them, then go back and fill them in later).

      I think the grading system just varies a bit from year to year.
      --
      Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
    3. Re:I took AP CS A by iknowcss · · Score: 1

      I took the AB test two years ago and got a 5 as well, and the instructor didn't even teach us the B material. As a few posters above have suggested, there isn't really any "science" in the computer science class until you get to the stacks, queues, and so forth. I was amazing the number of students in the class who had next to no idea what they were doing. Ability to post on 1337 forums, chat with your friends on AIM, and hook up a printer does not translate into actual computer science. What they're doing is watering down the material, and it's a terrible idea. The sooner a student can find out that computer science is or isn't something that they want to peruse, the better. Imagine taking the A course and getting a 3 in high school, choosing CS as a major, getting to a real CS course, and then realizing that you hadn't even scratched the surface?

      CS is too easy anyways. I opted for Physics :P

      --
      Life is rarely fair. Cherish the moments when there is a right answer.
    4. Re:I took AP CS A by glitch23 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Part of it is that the teacher of my AP class, a female cheerleading coach (no kidding), was a decent teacher and could get you to learn a concept like new data structures or pointers in 20 minutes.

      I'd really like to know what her teaching method was given the combination of cheerleading and CS usually don't go together despite our daily wishes.

      --
      this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
    5. Re:I took AP CS A by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'd really like to know what her teaching method was given the combination of cheerleading and CS usually don't go together despite our daily wishes.
      Push to the left!
      Push to the right!
      Pop up, push down
      Byte, byte byte!

    6. Re:I took AP CS A by PurpleBob · · Score: 1

      Dear god, they're still using the fish thing? I remember that from 2002. At least then, it had requirements that made no sense implemented with code that didn't quite do what they said it did, and that's the code you had to work with on the exam.

      I think the course kind of needed to die. The way APCS AB was generally taught would get you nowhere in college. APCS A is about basic program control structures and doesn't claim to be about anything else, and now high schools that can afford to have a class beyond that can come up with course material that actually teaches something.

      --
      Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
    7. Re:I took AP CS A by SunTzuWarmaster · · Score: 1

      I also received a 3 from the AP CS AB exam. I skipped 2 classes at my college: Intro to Computer Science (you learn C here), and Data Structures (you learn linked lists and binary trees here). I have done well in courses after those (Evolutionary Computation at the graduate level, Intro to Computer Engineering and Computer Systems Design I at the undergraduate level). Of course, I'm an EE, so what do I know?

    8. Re:I took AP CS A by j1mmy · · Score: 1

      I took the AB, got a 5, then ended up going to a school where I didn't even get credit for that. I'm not convinced the AP test itself is worth much, though I was much better prepared for the intro-level data structures and algorithms classes in college than I would have been otherwise. Just my experience, of course.

    9. Re:I took AP CS A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're looking for "Shift to the left" "Shift to the right" ;)

    10. Re:I took AP CS A by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      Damn, you're right. Oops.

    11. Re:I took AP CS A by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Also, pushing down comes before popping up if you don't want to get a stack underflow.

  12. Very Disturbing by twocows · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm currently enrolled in AP Computer Science AB, and I can say without a doubt it has been one of the most useful classes I've taken up to this point. I'm frustrated and confused at this news. I suppose the upside is that fewer computer science courses will conform to the strict Java-only curriculum, allowing for educations in other programming languages besides Java, such as C/C++. On the other hand, it may just mean less material is taught in high school computer science courses. If I had to guess which is more likely, I'd have to go with the latter.

    1. Re:Very Disturbing by mckniffen · · Score: 1

      I hate to tell you mate, I tried to get my high school to go for letting me have an independent study in C++, I even went to the Maryland board of ED with my request.

      they told me that There were no teachers competent to set my curriculum and aid my learning.

      I just told them my Ap comp sci A teacher is incompetent too and that didn't stop that

      (That was probably a bad idea) :]

      --
      Communism, its a party!
  13. Re:Good! CS is a pseudo-subject anyway by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1, Insightful

    bring mathematics under the umbrella of cs..

  14. other subjects, too by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They also cut Italian, Latin literature, and French literature.

    As a college teacher, I'm uncomfortable with the place that AP exams now occupy in our educational system. When I went to college, it was considered unusual to take AP exams, and nobody had ever heard of a GPA higher than 4.0. Now, with AP classes counting +1 on the GPA, Berkeley is turning away a sizable fraction of all students with 4.0 GPAs. In other words, you essentially can't get into the flagship schools of the UC system unless you have a lot of AP exams to puff up your grades. In one way this is good, because the old system encouraged kids not to take challenging coursework in high school. But a lot of rural and inner-city high schools don't offer AP courses, or don't offer more than one or two, or they offer them, but they're not at a high enough level to prepare you for the exams. There's something horribly wrong with a system of government that taxes working-class people in order to support public education, but effectively excludes their kids from getting the full benefit of the system they're supporting with their taxes.

    Looking over the contents of the CS exams, I can't help getting the impression that this is vocational education masquerading as something more academic. It all seems to be focused on the OOP fad, and on being able to code in Java. Stacks and queues are only covered on the AB, not the A level!?!? The hardware part seems pretty lightweight, and there's virtually no theory AFAICT.

    1. Re:other subjects, too by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      Another reason to dislike my former school system, which grades on a scale where all the cutoffs are shifted 4 percentage points higher (94 and up is an A, etc.), and AP courses counted as a +.5. The other systems in the area all use the standard 90,80,70... scale and give 1.0 for "honors" or AP classes.

      The counselors and universities claim that they take these differences into account and scale the GPA accordingly, but I'm skeptical. That first impression of seeing the reported number counts for a lot, I suspect.

    2. Re:other subjects, too by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      My sister took a few of those bullshit AP courses in high school(to get into Berkeley), then she had to take the same damn courses again at Berkeley. AP courses are just a fucking cash cow designed for grade inflation.

    3. Re:other subjects, too by Tragek · · Score: 1

      Woah...... +1 to your GPA for getting a 5 in AP CS? That's bull. I didn't write AP CS but I wrote Math AB (and got a 5).... what a joke. It was no where near equivalent to a first year calculus course. No where near.

    4. Re:other subjects, too by Forrest+Kyle · · Score: 1

      I can't read your mind, so I don't know what AFAICT means. Can you please type it out so that other humans who don't intuitively know what you are talking about can read it too?

    5. Re:other subjects, too by jmichaelg · · Score: 1

      AAG, AFAICT = As Far As I Can Tell.

      BYR, IS.

    6. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who took 7 APs (5 5s and 2 4s, thank you) over a decade ago, they are a joke compared to college classes.

      Even in something like math and science, the complexity of the problem you are given as a HS student is much simpler than what college students are given. So even though you learn the same material, you have no where near as firm of grasp of it. Instead of being given problem where you have to think a little to set them up correctly (Sometimes a bit out of the box), HS kids are just given problems that are straight forward to solve. Perhaps that's all they want them to be able to do, as they expect the thinking skills to come later, I'm not sure its such a positive turn.

    7. Re:other subjects, too by CSMatt · · Score: 1

      Another problem is that, before you apply for your first AP course, you have to know ahead of time what colleges you want to apply and their policies on AP transfer if you don't want to get shafted later. In my high school the typical time one takes AP courses was junior year, and I consider that way too early to be narrowing down colleges. My university only transfers AP credits if you received a 4 or 5 on the AP exam, despite the College Board considering 3 to be the minimal passing grade. Even if you pass the class, you risk having to take it again. Sure, it should be easier the second time around, but isn't one of the reasons for AP so that you don't have to take that course in college?

      In retrospect, it's a good thing I avoided AP like the plague. I'd be royally pissed of I worked my ass off, possibly at the expense of other high school courses, only to find out that all of that effort didn't even count when I got to college.

    8. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, no. This is not the way admissions councils look at applications, especially not at competitive schools. Admissions councils look to see what opportunities available at your high school you have taken advantage of, and, for the supercompetitive colleges, to what extent you have gone beyond these opportunities. So, a kid in an inner-city school that offers no APs who took the most challenging courses that existed otherwise and did well in them would look much nicer to an admissions council that a kid in a prep school that offered 20 APs who only took two or three. They look at everything relatively, as they should. If you look at UCLA and UC-Berkeley, two flagship public colleges, you'll easily see a rather strong number of kids from poorer areas attending these schools, especially in comparison to private schools of similar prestige (even if they have spectacular financial aid packages). You mention Berkeley turns away students with 4.0 GPAs, but they still accept students with LOWER than 4.0 GPAs (provided they attend rather destitute schools and perform very well in them). It's analagous to, say, Princeton, that turns away a sizeable number of kids with a 2400 on their SAT, but accepts plenty of kids with a 2200 or 2100. The government is taxing people to provide education that is used by those same people, especially used moreso than the private schools. And they're getting the taxes mostly from people who are in a very good position to use this benefit anyway.

    9. Re:other subjects, too by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      ...I wrote Math AB (and got a 5).... what a joke. It was no where near equivalent to a first year calculus course. No where near. Perhaps that's because the AB test is only a first semester level test? BC is the one that covers a whole year of curriculum.

      Also, nowhere is one word.
      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    10. Re:other subjects, too by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      I suppose it depends on the major, but I've been looking at the course requirements for EECS at Berkeley (my major in the fall) and I will be getting credit for most of the stuff I took, eg. APCS AB will count for CS61b. They do have a limit on the number of AP classes you can use to satisfy the humanities requirement, which is annoying for me since part of the reason I took all those humanities AP classes was to never have to do humanities courses again. However, for the most part, it seems like they'll take most AP exam scores for credit.

      This page has the list of AP equivalencies to Berkeley courses, seems pretty reasonable. Also, I suppose part of the reason I took a ton of AP classes was for grade inflation, because I had to in order to keep my class rank high. Most people wouldn't care, my friend got into EECS at Berkeley as well (supposedly their hardest major) and he got a bunch of Bs and doesn't do much homework, but I just have the personal motivation to try to outdo everyone else academics-wise.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    11. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stanford tells their freshman class every year that they could have filled the entire class with applicants who had gotten both 4.0s and 1600s on the SAT. They choose not to do so, preferring to select students who are well-rounded with both strong (though not necessarily perfect grades) and who have taken an extra-curricular to an elite level. My classmates all had something extraordinary about them aside from being smart: some were high-level musicians, many were excellent athletes, some spoke six or seven languages, a big handful had started and run charities during high school.

      Personally, I think this was a great thing, and it certainly enhanced my experience there.

    12. Re:other subjects, too by Tragek · · Score: 1

      But it didn't even cover my first semester course, not in the level expected by my university. I had the option to skip directly to the second semester course given my grade.... and I can guarantee, I would've been slaughtered.

    13. Re:other subjects, too by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Well, then that's kind of weird, but you probably should have taken BC if it was available. I suppose it depends on how good your teacher is at actually teaching the content and not just teaching to the test, though.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    14. Re:other subjects, too by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      I took AP Physics, Calc, and Comp Sci and received 3, 4, and 5 in them, respectively. I was told by the dept head that they wouldn't except the APCS score as the test was in Pascal (last year it was offered as such), and strongly suggested I take Calc 1 anyways, though they could accept that test grade (I did, and was glad as Calc 2 is an evil, evil thing at that school, drawn forth from the bowels of the ninth to feast on the misery of poor innocent students, much like Technical English [my Tech English class was referred to as "Hell on Wheels" by the professor, and when I went to ask him how I did on our final paper, I was told that he didn't actually *grade* it per se, and I got a C in the class]), AP Physics would have worked as well, but due to scheduling issues I ended up taking Chem instead (on the upside, the early extra hell paid for a relaxing 12 hour/semester senior year, due to some truly fortunate scheduling situations that wouldn't have happened otherwise). =)

    15. Re:other subjects, too by Forrest+Kyle · · Score: 1

      Well, I got the important part. I don't know what that other stuff you said was. That's probably because I choose to speak English when I talk to other English speakers.

    16. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I absolutely agree. I'm a proponent of having the entire AP collective cut. If you want to take college courses, and you believe your ready for them, go to a college and take them. There are programs similar to washington state's running-start that do just this. It increases the importance of community colleges, in areas with them, and for areas without universities or community colleges, it allows the community to foster new programs that aid both in assisting students, and adult education. Furthermore by ensuring that the programs meet ACE requirements the students can transfer the credits, and be sure that they are receiving college level material from a qualified instructor.

    17. Re:other subjects, too by novakyu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a college teacher, I'm uncomfortable with the place that AP exams now occupy in our educational system. When I went to college, it was considered unusual to take AP exams, and nobody had ever heard of a GPA higher than 4.0. Now, with AP classes counting +1 on the GPA, Berkeley is turning away a sizable fraction of all students with 4.0 GPAs. Don't worry—on many college applications, they will simply renormalize the GPA down to 4.0 (I think UC Berkeley's application tells you to ignore extra weight placed on AP classes and scale "5.0" down to 4.0, but I could be remembering wrong—it's been years since I had to fill out an application for college).

      Also, some colleges will do something that's ... even better—i.e. they tell the student to re-scale their entire GPA, if the maximum grade point achievable is higher than 4.0. That should nicely backfire on those asshat schools offering "4.3" grade point for A+ or 5.0 grade point for the B.S. (and S. doesn't stand for "Science") that is AP.

      Frankly, the best investment I made in high school was taking a few lower-division science classes in community colleges. If you are in California, they are likely to be transferable to U.C. campuses, and, by jolly, you learn a lot more there than in these supposed "college-level" classes. Oh, and did I mention, that for many counties in California, attending community college classes might be free for high school students, unlike these overpriced worthless tests?
    18. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It all seems to be focused on the OOP fad..." Why is OOP a fad. Smalltalk featured OOP. It is been around since 1980. The goal is to help students be able to structure solutions to problem in OOP. Java is a good current solution to doing this. Besides object oriented basics, introductory CS classes teach control structures such as loops and conditional statements. Many even teach recursion. Data structures is often the next course where stacks, queues, lists, etc are taught. Too many purists think that anything that does not look like a branch of mathematics is vocational training.

    19. Re:other subjects, too by bcat24 · · Score: 1

      STFW, k?

    20. Re:other subjects, too by tap · · Score: 1

      We got nothing for taking AP classes, so consider yourself lucky. And we didn't have any CS course at all, but I look the CS AB AP test anyway. Don't think I got any college for it, but it probably helped me get out of taking the intro CS courses there and going straight to the more advanced ones.

    21. Re:other subjects, too by doktor-hladnjak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      High schools are all about selling students on this idea that taking AP exams will get them out of courses in college. It's true at most colleges, but not really the elite ones. I passed something like 9 AP exams in high school, which got me out of exactly 1 class at Berkeley. I only had to take one semester of writing instead of two. I could have skipped the first semester of calculus, but decided to retake it which looking back was probably a good thing. I graduated in the Letters and Science college ultimately (BA in CS), but I seem to vaguely recall that College of Engineering and College of Chemistry counted more AP classes. The main thing you get out of taking AP at Cal, is that you've already completed some units which can give you a slight registration preference after your first year. Also, it means you may be able to graduate early or just not worry as much about taking a full load every semester so that you can get to the 120 or so units required for graduation.

      Overall, I don't believe AP classes are really equivalent to the college courses they replace at any substantial university, but they're a much better use of a student's time that whatever non-AP class they'd be taking in high school instead. Generally, they have the more motivated teachers and students, which means less time wasted in classes with behavior problem students and lame teachers. With so many kids coming into college needing to take so many remedial courses, AP has really just become the new college prep.

      I've always viewed students getting credit for CS61B by the AP exam as a big loss though. There's just no way anybody who took AP CS in high school got the same rigor as CS61B at Cal. That said, I can see why students would rather bypass it and get on to advanced coursework more quickly. I taught that class as instructor of record in Summer 2004, so I admit I'm a bit biased.

    22. Re:other subjects, too by jellie · · Score: 2

      I just graduated from EECS at Berkeley last year. Admittedly I kinda sucked at programming and engineering, but that's another matter.

      Berkeley will take almost all AP exam scores for credit, provided you get the minimum score. I found AP courses to be nothing like the level of college courses, save for straightforward things like calculus and history, where the material (IMO) is generally the same everywhere. Most of the AP courses just counted toward units; I had junior standing after my first semester. Since I took easy classes that first semester, I qualified for the engineering honor societies :P That was good because my grades fell after that semester.

      Anyway, even if you do get credit for them, I would strongly recommend you retake the classes that matter most. IIRC, you must take the CS and physics classes for EECS anyway; AP credit won't count for fulfilling the major's requirements. You can use AP credit for calculus (Math 1A only), general chemistry, econ, etc. Good luck!

    23. Re:other subjects, too by Tragek · · Score: 1

      Hahaha. Ironically, I took all the BC studies, just not the exam. My teacher was great. I just didn't find the AP material adequately prepared for university level calculus.

    24. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To my knowledge, Honors classes also count as +1 in the UC school system. Kids that take AP's also get +1. Honors and AP classes generally are NOT the same.

      But I agree with you. Living in the Bay Area, it is not uncommon to take 3 AP's in 10th grade, 4 or 5 in 11th grade and 4 or 5 in 12th grade. For example, at my school I had taken all but AP histroy, french, and spanish that were offered. Our school made the unfortunate decision of locking their students into taking the test, saying something along the lines of, "if you don't take the AP test, we will change your class to Honors" or normal. I mean, when you find out as a senior in high school that AP Physics B counts for nothing in Engineering schools, why waste $78-$85 of your own money taking it?

      You're right about the demographic problems. Rural area kids have it much harder as they don't get that many APs. I have a friend I met at Cal who lived 2 hours east of LA. He only took AP US History and AP Calc AB (his school didn't offer BC). He was pretty much the only kid in his city that left the area his year for college. This guy was and still is very sharp and extremely resourceful. Bested me in quite a few classes. He was probably one of few students in his school that took a bunch of Honors classes to compensate. On the other hand, there were about a total of 150 kids from my-mid sized city alone that went to Cal for any given year.

      I'm not saying the kids in my area aren't competitive, it's just that in high school it's extremely hard to standardize people. The obvious answer is to take a TEST, but we already have a test that isn't very indicative of how good students are. STAR or Golden State whatever testing was way too easy for most people that end up going to "flagship" universities. Really, someone needs to figure out how to fix the American educational system, especially in California. We put more and more $$ in and get barely anything out. Sure we have a high immigrant population that lowers the collective english scores, but I'm sure that some of those same kids also raise the collective math score and scores in other subjects. Besides, if the $$ that we put into the Educational program actually converted in to actual educational improvement, the collective improvement of everybody would obviously raise scores even with a large immigrant population.

    25. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate how everybody looks at weighted GPAs. At the university where I work, we only look at unweighted HS GPAs. If one isn't provided, we figure one out.

    26. Re:other subjects, too by UserChrisCanter4 · · Score: 1

      Unless Berkeley is doing that +1 GPA internally, those bumps are usually specific to the school district. I'm a high school teacher who has taught in several districts around the state, and most districts I'm familiar with have abandoned the 4.0 system to discourage "gaming" the GPA and to encourage students to take more challenging courses.

      At least around here, even the lousiest districts and schools offer some form of +1 GPA modifier for advanced classes of some sort. I've also seen many college applications that required normalization to 4.0, and the school I teach at issues GPAs both in our district's form and on a 4.0 scale. Of course, I would expect that class rank coupled with reputation of the school and SAT/ACT goes much further to telling the university about a candidate's skill than x.y/4.0 ever could.

      My own high school used a 6.0 GPA. 4.0 was an A in a regular class, be it regular Algebra or PE. 5.0 was an A in so called "advanced" classes, which was a tiny subset encompassing third or fourth year fine art and language classes. The reasoning there was that the district didn't want students to have to avoid fourth year orchestra to eke out an extra couple of spaces in class rank. 6.0 was an A in honors-level and AP-type classes. Scores droppped to 3.0/4.0/5.0 for a B, but everything hit 2.0 at a C. Objectively, it might have produced valedictorians with 5.8-ish GPAs, but subjectively they were people who belonged at the top of the class anyway. Everyone else's GPA of course scaled down from there. Trying to explain a GPA over 4 to the older generation was a bit comical at first, but in the end it all had to with how you compared to your peers anyway.

      If Berkeley is calculating their own GPAs for applicants with a +1 for AP, then that sounds absolutely ridiculous and reflects an awfully classist attitude for such a historically "hippie" school. As it is, though, the good kid from the poor school should still outrank his (few) co-applicants from the same school.

      In the end, you're right about the government taxing working class people to support an education that their kids don't fully benefit from, but I think that problem is more due to the lack of education at the poorer schools and less to do with mythical GPA systems and AP exams. All it takes is the spectacular failure of top 10% automatic admissions in some states to see that #1 from a lousy school is likely far worse than #100 from a great one.

    27. Re:other subjects, too by gatzke · · Score: 3, Informative

      AP exams are even worse than just limiting rural students. Students optimize their GPA by not taking non-AP courses. They won't take band because it is graded, but not honors. They won't take pre-engineering courses since they have not be honors certified. They take study hall instead. ???

      I just recently realized I would have finished a few places higher in my HS class if I had dropped band and jazz band... I was apparently not sophisticated enough to think about optimizing my GPA. I like to think I ended up with more scholarships than most of the rest of my class because I was well rounded :-)

    28. Re:other subjects, too by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      The government is taxing people to provide education that is used by those same people, especially used moreso than the private schools.

      You make some good points. But what about the phenomenon of the inner-city single mother who works two jobs so she can send her kids to a Catholic school? She's paying twice: once to support the horrible public schools, and once for the Catholic school. It's not like college admissions policies can magically fix the shortcomings of the public schools. If you go to a bad public school, you get a horrible education, and you're not prepared for a good college.

      And they're getting the taxes mostly from people who are in a very good position to use this benefit anyway.

      Here's where you really lost me. Say family A makes $40,000/yr, and that amounts to $30,000/yr after taxes. Now say family B makes $130,000/yr, which is $100,000/yr after tax. A has a much harder time affording their taxes than B does, because what's left to A is barely enough to live on. In return, A gets access to public schools that are little more than holding pens. If A really cares about their kids' education, then they'd be better off in a totally privatized system, where they wouldn't have to pay twice to get their kids into a decent school.

    29. Re:other subjects, too by tony1343 · · Score: 1

      I hear a lot of people talk about how AP classes put too much pressure on high schoolers who are doing too much to try to get into college. I call bullshit. I took AP classes because I wanted to learn and I would definitely be against cutting them. I graduated high school with 30 college credits from AP classes which was fantastic because college is ridiculously expensive and so it allowed me to graduate in 3 years and save a ton of money (and then go into a ton of debt in grad school). Oh and the CompSci AP tests were absurdly easy. My school offered the A level; the next year I studied for 3 weeks before the AB tests and got a 5 on it. So I definitely agree with the comments that it doesn't test enough theory.

    30. Re:other subjects, too by fermion · · Score: 1
      I agree. Pretty much the AP course are gimmicks to give certain students a higher GPA than otherwise equivalent students. On one hand there are few standards to insure that the extra point is earned, while on the other hand more schools are being forced to implement "AP" level courses to those who may not be able to do the work and as a result inflate grades. If a school has no AP courses the school is rated inferior, even if the instruction is of high level. If the school implements "AP" course, the students are able to compete based on GPA, and the school is rated better, even if the instruction is inferior.In fact, from my experience, 90% of the "AP" benefit is the test taking strategies, the ability to write an answer in the form that the grader will give a "5', but which I have not seen any proven relation to the mastery of college level work. At most a "5" means well prepared for college.

      Speaking to the AP exam in particular, I have taken many computer science courses, and have done much coding. I would have a very hard time making a good grade on test, mostly as the questions appear to be trivia. Missing is the kind of questions that a first year programmer needs to know, about strong functions and data structures, about flow, about form. The kind of low level questions on the test are a far cry from what were expected to do in high school, much less college. I will also say that the math exams focus way too much on trivia and formalism, and way too little on the symbolic manipulation and theorems needed to succeed in calculus.

      It seems that like most things, the AP system has degraded into a another means to extract funds from the direct education of children to the support of non-classroom personnel. To be fair, when i was in school the AP course did provide a framework to help the advanced student. They were there to provide rigorous content for those that probably should be in college, but were stuck in high school. Now in our everyone must go to college world, the AP courses has been expanded beyond reason, and probably without complaint of those that are making a bundle off it.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    31. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not anymore, most schools test you in the subject area. It really doesn't matter what you took in HS, just how you do on the test. e.g. you may have had AP Calculus but do shitty on the test and you'll be back in entry level college algebra - manditory.

    32. Re:other subjects, too by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      Now, with AP classes counting +1 on the GPA
      Ours counted exactly the same. A+'s counted as a 4.3, but the relative ranking of the top 5% of the class pretty much depended on which of their teachers would and would not give an A+. I was class of 1994, so it could've changed in the meantime, but a lot of people were complaining even then that other schools gave a GPA bonus for AP classes.

      Stacks and queues are only covered on the AB, not the A level!?!?
      The A is supposed to be CS1, isn't it? I got CS1 credit from a 3 on the A exam (after three days scrambling to review Pascal, as I was mostly using C by then), never learned any data structures beyond records and arrays, and didn't seem to be missing anything in CS2.

    33. Re:other subjects, too by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      Overall, I don't believe AP classes are really equivalent to the college courses they replace at any substantial university
      I'm not sure if this is saying more about my high school or my colleges, but I found my AP classes were more advanced than the comparable lower-level college classes.

    34. Re:other subjects, too by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if this is saying more about my high school or my colleges, but I found my AP classes were more advanced than the comparable lower-level college classes.

      I agree. When I was in high school, the teachers would tell the students how hard college would be, it's all garbage, if anything at least in my experience, college was a lot less work outside of the classroom. Sure there were papers to write, but homework for the most part was optional, you got to pick who you wanted as your professor, and you don't go to the same classes day in an day out on the same boring schedule. Higher level classes are a little bit more involved, but someone with decent time management skills shouldn't have an issue.

    35. Re:other subjects, too by rfunches · · Score: 1

      And IB (International Baccalaureate - http://www.ibo.org/) is the same way, but while it has smaller "market share" of "advanced" courses, from what I know it's growing at a faster clip than AP in schools. Besides certificates in particular courses/subjects, there is also a diploma programme: complete a four-year set of Pre-IB and IB courses and you graduate HS with this magical Diploma that makes college easier. I had friends that graduated with an IB diploma and depending on which college they went to, they got anywhere from two years of courses waived to only getting courses waived that paired with HL-level (similar to AP's AB level) exams. Plus the school had to pay a full-time coordinator for the program, plus the money, time and effort into the certification process, and arranging transport for students outside that school's district. After going through the programme myself, I'm not sure it's really worth it for the students or the taxpayers (since the schools usually pick up the cost of the exams and teacher/course certifications).

      Sure, you'll learn valuable material and occasionally come across great teachers who have a passion for their course, but more often than not these courses and programs do nothing more than put an enormous amount of stress on high-school students and give them the illusion that they're not only preparing themselves for college but earning college credit early. I started the IB program my freshman year in high school and ultimately ended up only doing an IB cert in Latin IV (so I'm disappointed to see Latin literature go away, as well) and an AP Comparative History course, the latter of which actually earned me college credit (that I couldn't use). It's a decent program if you're looking for more advanced classes, but I've seen too many people go into those courses thinking they'll be ahead in college by taking the exams.

      But then again, after the SAT grading fiasco a few years back (the abnormally low scores from damaged answer sheets), one has to wonder just how big of a profit margin the College Board is actually running.

    36. Re:other subjects, too by rfunches · · Score: 1

      At my high school your course grade was on a 5.0 scale instead of a 4.0 if you passed the exam (a 3+ on AP, or 4+ on IB). I think our valedictorian graduated with something like a 4.8 overall GPA -- nearly all of her junior and senior classes were on the 5.0 scale.

    37. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, berkeley's doesn't. my UC GPA for 07-08 admission was 4.56. it was higher than my actual gpa because they ignored the religion clases i was forced to take at my private high school.

    38. Re:other subjects, too by outcast36 · · Score: 1

      +1 for cc classes in high school. I don't know anything about California, I grew up in Florida, and in FL, they will pay for high school students to take cc classes. True, I didn't win the county math awards because I wasn't taking classes with the school system, but I did get credit for all the classes I took, (and I went out of state.)

        These were just run of the mill Calculus classes so I had to take other classes, but they did
      1) Let me skip the Calc 1/Cal II progression and move right into optimization (business major, didn't need Diff Eq)
      2) count as math electives (Calc III), which let me lighten the load later semesters.

      Of course I also took AP classes, but they didn't take any of those for credit. Of course the AP classes (English composition, and Chemistry) were worth it. I took the 100 level classes at university and they were very simple. I even put off Chemistry until senior year so I could coast my last semester.

      I agree with the parent poster that more and more pressure is being put on high school students to perform at a younger age. But if we want an information age, then we need to push ourselves, and our friends, and our families to create and understand more information and knowledge. As time marches on, our lives and societies grow more complex, learning is our best approach to deal with this. If we don't step up to the challenge, then we can begin our march back to the oceans.

      In conclusion, challenging classes are good. Take as many as you can. more thinking = good

    39. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bookmark this.

      BTW, what's this "intuitively" word? Can you use something more common so people who only speak proper English can understand you?

    40. Re:other subjects, too by allanw · · Score: 1

      I think it really depends on the college. I can potentially get 100 units (out of a 360 needed to graduate) from my AP credits at Carnegie Mellon:

      http://www.csd.cs.cmu.edu/education/bscs/ap_policy.html

      A lot of people take these courses at my school too. I'm happy not to have to pay the huge tuition fee to take some of these classes..

    41. Re:other subjects, too by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Hmm, that's odd. My teacher went beyond the regular BC material, but I'm in a little bit of a bad position since I took it last year and I need to review badly, since I forgot some of the stuff that's beyond the basics.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    42. Re:other subjects, too by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't know much about college actually but if I use AP classes for stuff outside my core classes for my major it shouldn't matter too much, right? Also, how much English do you have to take as an EECS major? I kind of like writing, but I'm starting to get sick of literary analysis.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    43. Re:other subjects, too by jellie · · Score: 1

      Yep, that's fine. In my opinion, AP credits should only be applied for courses that you would not rely on in the future (i.e., outside of the core classes for the major). Trust me, the only class for EECS that I can think of to use AP credits in is Math 1A. You can use AP credit for biology or chemistry for your natural sciences requirement, and other courses for some of the humanities requirements.

      You'll have to take 2 semesters of Reading and Comprehension (English) courses, only 1 of which can be satisfied with AP credit. If you took AP US History, you can get out of the history and institutions requirement. There are some interesting R&C classes, but I just took 1 year of regular English because I decided to do pre-med (and finish off the EECS degree with the minimum number of upper div EECS units...)

    44. Re:other subjects, too by jellie · · Score: 1

      I agree. AP classes may be good for high school students who want a "challenge," but it shouldn't be used for courses for a major. I kinda said the same thing in the sibling posts too.

      Wow, I was actually a student in your class :P I took it while taking another science class, and since then have told others never to combine a programming class with anything else in the summer. Biggest mistake ever...

    45. Re:other subjects, too by overeduc8ed · · Score: 1

      When I applied to the UCs in in the 1990s, I remember rural and inner-city students got bonus points on their applications, partly for this reason. (Yup, the first 50% of UC students are selected by an aging mainframe, based on a weighted sum of GPA, SAT/ACT scores, and various bonus points like this... back then, being an "underrepresented minority" also gave you bonus points, but voters made that illegal by the end of the 90s.) It looks like they still have a system that is somewhat accommodating.

    46. Re:other subjects, too by judolphin · · Score: 1

      Computer Science A is designed to be a three-credit course, equivalent to introductory programming. Computer Science AB is the equivalent of the first two CS programming courses. As a CS graduate, stacks and queues were not introduced to me until my Data Structure course. So, this does make sense. Data structures, at least when I was in high school, was rightfully out of scope for AP Computer Science A.

      --
      The Institute of Incomplete Research has determined that 9 of out 10
    47. Re:other subjects, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, the chief benefit of AP Courses is that they are much cheaper to the state government than providing extra college level instructors. Dual-credit and online courseware is huge and getting huger.

      (NB I am a state higher education employee.)

    48. Re:other subjects, too by tknd · · Score: 1

      When I was applying for college way back in 2000-2001, the UC (University of California) schools only allowed you to count a limited number of AP courses as 5.0 credit and "honors" courses were required to be on the 4.0 scale. After you reached the maximum, you were supposed to drop down the remaining AP courses to the 4.0 scale. So it was possible to get above 4.0, but it was not possible to get astronomically high gpas (5.0). As you might guess, the UC schools had their own system of calculating GPA compared to my high school. So if you play by their rules, your GPA could be higher or lower than what your high school calculated. My school was pretty conservative about calculating GPA (not even AP counted as 5.0) so my GPA appeared lower, but when I calculated it based on the UC rules it appeared higher. Compared to other high schools with relaxed GPA calculations (honors A = 5.0), students were able to get ridiculously high GPAs. But on the UC scale, their GPAs probably went down.

      The nice thing about the UC application process (then) was that it required a plethora of different types of data about your high school performance in addition to grades and test scores. So a student who focused on sports or the arts could be considered for admission as long as their other stats (gpa, test scores) were acceptable. However, this did not completely eliminate the fact that you were up against every other student applying to that school; if the school received 100,000 applicants and could only admit 10,000, then obviously the school would try to select what they deemed as the top 10%.

      With that system there are two major "gotchas". The first is that if they consider one metric that is over a certain threshold as automatic acceptance, then you could theoretically not care about every other part of the application. For example, if you were guaranteed admission as long as your UC calculated GPA was above a certain threshold, then you were automatically accepted regardless of anything else on your application. The other "gotcha" is that if too many students apply and a metric has a ceiling (which they all do, maximum possible gpa, maximum possible test score), then granting automatic acceptance is no longer possible for the school to do. This means that if you had the highest gpa possible, but so did a 100,000 other students applying to the same school you did, then other traits of your application would be evaluated to see how you compared. This is usually why a certain combination of test scores and gpa can grant automatic acceptance, but one alone (high test score only, or high gpa only) will not. That is also why you should focus on extracurricular activities whether they be academic (debate team, special awards or competitions) or sports and the arts. Not just on GPA and test scores alone because it is likely that you are probably not in the top percentile in gpa and test scores alone.

      Some colleges do have what I think are flawed admission processes. For example, I was able to get into 4 of 6 UC schools, many ranked in the top 100 universities on USnews. However, I was not able to get admission into some state schools like Cal Poly. The major difference between the California state and University of California admission processes was that state only allowed GPA, and SAT/ACT scores while the UC system required other things like if you played on a school sports team, performed with a school band, or other school sponsored activities. So effectively these state schools are only saying that GPA and test scores determine how well you will do in college, but other schools think there is more to it than that. And I agree, it is hard to predict the future performance of any individual. But if you can find some sort of academic accomplishment or trait within their performance that indicates that they will at least make your school worthy of its name, then that is all that matters. (Of course in the perfect world we would also have enough resources to throw at evaluating individuals but we don't. So the ne

    49. Re:other subjects, too by doktor-hladnjak · · Score: 1

      Heh, funny running into a former student on here. There was a lot of work for the students, the TAs and me, the instructor, but it was definitely one my favorite jobs ever.

      I've been around the block in academia before and after that class and Cal undergrads still impress me greatly. It's really amazing what they'll do when you push their limits. To kind of tie back to my original point, students taking the AP exam in CS just don't get that same intensity you got to experience first hand.

      It can be brutal taking too much in summer school though. One summer, I took German 10 (German 1 and German 2 combined into a 10 week 10 unit course) while working as a TA for CS61B. That was a busy summer to say the least, but I learned a ton and never felt like a slacker at least.

    50. Re:other subjects, too by doktor-hladnjak · · Score: 1

      It really depends on the college and the high school. I worked hard in high school, but definitely found college more challenging. Most of what I learned in science, math and computer science type classes in college came from solving difficult problem sets or projects and not from listening to lectures or studying for exams.

      My high school did not send most of its students to 4 year colleges and certainly didn't prepare me as well for college as the high schools of many of the people I knew in college. By that same token though, I found the workload in grad school MUCH easier than the one I had in college while most of my friends in my cohort felt they'd never worked so hard in their academic lives. There's a wide variety of schools out there at all levels of education, which makes it hard to generalize too much.

    51. Re:other subjects, too by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      The biggest gotcha of the UC system is that it's so heavily biased towards in-state students that only 12.5% of, say, Berkeley's latest freshman class comes from out-of-state. For your average not-so-good-not-so-bad state school that's normal, but for one of the top universities in America it doesn't make much sense.

  15. WTF? by wyldeone · · Score: 1

    As someone who took the AB exam last year, this makes no sense. While the AB test is pretty easy (except for the somewhat ridiculous time limit on the multiple choice section), the A test is pathetically so. If you look at the topics for the two exams, the A test really just covers basic programming logic. AB adds in data structures, algorithms, and design patterns like OO, which makes it more comparable to a college-level CS class.

    In an era of increasing computation fluency amongst high schoolers, it seems strange that the college board would try so hard to dumb down high school level computer science.

    (Totally off-topic, but is anybody else not totally thrilled with this redesign?)

    --
    In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.
    1. Re:WTF? by Shados · · Score: 1

      According to the article, its some of the least popular programs around, part of why its getting cut. According to my girlfriend who passed the test with flying colors in a relatively large school, less than 10% of her class actually succeeded (anecdotal, but it could give a clue).

      As much as peopl eare more and more computer fluent, anything beyond using a word processor and MySpace is still voodoo to most.

    2. Re:WTF? by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 5, Funny

      ---(Totally off-topic, but is anybody else not totally thrilled with this redesign?)

      I do know that the buttons were changed when I responded to an admin. He, for some reason, didnt like my signature ;)

      --
    3. Re:WTF? by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Seriously, the A test is pretty much something you could learn in a week. Hopefully they merge in AB concepts into the A test. Luckily for me, I took it in 2006 so I'll be getting some credit for a basic CS course, but at least at Berkeley the A test has no course equivalent, and you only get 1.3 units for a 4 or a 5 on it.

      Also, I'm kind of confused as to why they need to cut back on tests, considering they charge $84 just to take the tests. The College Board is really a harmful monopoly, the way it has control over both the SAT and AP testing. Their auditing process is similarly idiotic. My AP World History teacher, who is probably one of the best teachers I've ever had and had a 100% passage rate the year I took the test (2006), failed their audit the first several times.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    4. Re:WTF? by louiswins · · Score: 1

      $84? It's $100 for those of us whose schools don't cover part of the fee.

    5. Re:WTF? by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's just idiotic. Although I suppose they have to pay for graders, they only need those in proportion to the number of people who take the exams.

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
  16. Really? by BSDevil · · Score: 2, Informative

    Having gone though several international high schools (located across Europe), they all offered CS A and AB.

    When I finally took it (A, in Grade 11) it was taught as a combined A/AB class by the school's Director of Technology. It wasn't as formalized a most classes - we simply took over the computer lab and its whiteboards for our classroom - but it was small, intense, and with a smart group of people. We finished the AP spec about halfway through the year, so for the second half we just did a bunch of code projects, only one of which was the standard AP one (this was the year before they brought in the aforementioned god-awful fish tank project). Independently, when I went to (public) school in Canada, AP CS A was offered as well, with the usual caveat that the school board wouldn't pay the testing fees (but would teach a class on it).

    If you say it's unavailable outside the US, you need to compare that against the availability of other AP classes - do you mean that the French national school board won't offer them, or that the American School in Paris won't?

    --
    Cue The Sun...
  17. Other Courses were also cut. by richg74 · · Score: 2, Informative
    Although the Computer Science course is obviously the one that most Slashdot geeks will care about, the College Board also cut Italian, French Literature, and Latin Literature. The figures cited in TFA for these three indicate that there were fewer than 4000 students in each -- not very many for a country the size of the US. (Unfortunately, they didn't give numbers for the CS course.) So I don't think anything insidious is going on -- they're just trying to direct limited resources to the places they think the resources can be most effectively used.

    The article also mentions the possibility, in the context of the Italian course, of the program being continued if a sponsor could be found. Perhaps Mr. W. Gates and the other hi-tech moguls who are always bemoaning the lack of US workers, and crying for more H1 visas, could pony up a few bucks to support the CS course. I'm sure it would be chump change for Bill.

    1. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by BlueCollarCamel · · Score: 1

      According to http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/compsci_ab/dist.html?comsciab there were 5,064 students that took the AP CS AB exam in 2007.

      --
      1&1 - Cheap domain and web hosting.
    2. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      Latin Literature isti nothi...

      I took CS AB instead of Latin Literature my senior year. I actually kinda regret that, since being able to skip an intro CS course was hardly worth the foregone intellectual enrichment.

      I continue to see people piss all over the classics, and I am saddened and angered. Show some fucking respect for the civilizations which formed the basis for your own!
    3. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 4, Informative
      http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2008/04/09/32ap.h27.html

      Mr. Packer said the decision was made principally because of demographic considerations.

      Only a tiny fraction of the members of underrepresented minority groups who take AP exams take the tests in one of those four affected subject areas, he said.

      The College Board has made it a priority to reach such students, including those who are African- American and Hispanic.

      It looks like there were plenty of students, just not enough of the right color.
    4. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by absoluteflatness · · Score: 1

      I see somewhere else that "demographic concerns" were the primary motivator, and that there were very few "minority" students taking the 4 removed exams.

      While this is all framed as part of the College Board's efforts to reach out to minorities, I'm not sure that simply removing the courses that fewer minorities take is any kind of real answer. Scratch that, I'm entirely sure that it's not. This just seems like an effort to skew the statistics to show more equality than really exists. Treating the symptoms, not the problem.

    5. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by CSMatt · · Score: 1

      If Gates starts funneling into AP CS, you can bet that we'll see more MS-centric stuff being taught.

    6. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Ugh. So many people need to be whacked over the head with the definition of discrimination. A lot of this "racial equality" stuff is discrimination. We shouldn't be striving for racial equality in the sense of forcing a uniform distribution of color. The whole idea of non-discrimination is that color doesn't matter!

    7. Re:Other Courses were also cut. by mckniffen · · Score: 1

      I am currently taking AP Computer Sience AB online as offered by the Maryland State Dept of Education.

      In maryland there are as of this year 17 people taking the class.

      Its just a sad fact amigo, theres not enough interest drummed up in computer science in an academic fashion.

      the most prominent use of computer science in my high school is hacking the network for remote root access and playing pranks from there.

      Most of the really talented people aren't into drawing attention to their skills

      --
      Communism, its a party!
  18. What does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand a thing! "AB examination" "A examination" "AP CS" "varsity team"?

    Can someone please explain for people outside the US?

    1. Re:What does this mean? by philgross · · Score: 2, Informative
      "Advanced Placement" or AP courses are advanced courses (supposedly college level) that are offered at some high schools. Unlike the rest of the local- and state-controlled curriculum, AP courses are administered by a national organization, the College Board.

      A number of the tests are offered at different difficulties, including Computer Science with the A and AB levels, and Calculus with AB and BC levels.

      The College Board has announced that they're dropping four tests, three language tests plus the AB CS class. Since it was short notice with little consultation, and the AB test was the only one with any content that would really be considered computer science (e.g. data structures), teachers are up in arms.

      The broader issue is that primary and secondary education vary enormously in quality and funding over the US. This is partly because different states want to do it differently (good), and partly because education is funded almost entirely out of local property taxes, so rich areas have super-schools, and poor areas have lousy schools (bad). The cycle reinforces as rich people move to areas with good schools.

      Thus the complaint that only rich high schools can afford to teach AP classes, and AP classes are necessary to get into the best universities.

      Oh, and varsity: in American high school and college sports programs, the Varsity team for a sport is the best team, which represents the school in competition with other schools. So if you're not very good at football, you might still be able to play on the Junior Varsity team, but probably not for the the Varsity team. Teacher is claiming that AB-Test-Takers = Varsity CS Team.

    2. Re:What does this mean? by afidel · · Score: 1

      The broader issue is that primary and secondary education vary enormously in quality and funding over the US. This is partly because different states want to do it differently (good), and partly because education is funded almost entirely out of local property taxes, so rich areas have super-schools, and poor areas have lousy schools (bad). The cycle reinforces as rich people move to areas with good schools.

      I always read this, but at least here in NE Ohio it isn't true. Many of the better suburban schools spend significantly LESS per pupil than the Cleveland city schools do. Throwing money at schools won't fix the fact that the students don't want to learn and the parents don't have the will or ability to force them to. Sure there are a few utlra-wealthy suburbs that spend more than the big urban districts per pupil, but they don't really get better results than the ones like mine that just have a majority interested pupils who are provided the resources they need to learn.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:What does this mean? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Oh, and varsity: in American high school and college sports programs, the Varsity team for a sport is the best team, which represents the school in competition with other schools. So if you're not very good at football, you might still be able to play on the Junior Varsity team, but probably not for the the Varsity team. Teacher is claiming that AB-Test-Takers = Varsity CS Team.

      Exactly - I was going to summarize:

      "No, it's not like telling the varsity coach it's the last year you have a varsity team - it' like telling the coach it's the last year you have a JUNIOR varsity team."

      Not sure how it is around the rest of the US, but in my high school the Jr. Varsity team was where the kids from the sophomore team who didn't make the varsity team went to get some exercise. And in fact, many high schools are dropping JV teams for lack of funding, so it's a better analogy than the teacher thought!

      To finish my rant: don't we have enough BAD professional programmers already? Do we need to encourage bad high school programmers?

    4. Re:What does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if the AB test takers are the JV, who are the A test takers?

    5. Re:What does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is partly because different states want to do it differently (good), and partly because education is funded almost entirely out of local property taxes, so rich areas have super-schools, and poor areas have lousy schools (bad).

      That isn't exactly the case in NY. Most of the money I pay in school taxes goes to a central place in Albany where it is given out to schools all over the state. I have a friend who works as a teacher who explained to me that only about 30% of what I pay goes to my local school district.

      The issue we have here is that good teachers do not want to teach in the inner city because of the environment. My friend had to take his first job at an inner city school because nobody elsewhere in the state would take him without experience. In his two years there he had his car broken into and trashed (on his first day) by fifth graders, was threatened with a knife by a fourth grader, and had all the supplies stolen from his desk on numerous occasions. BTW, none of the parent come to parent-teacher night either. In his two years he only ever had one parent show up and that parent only came to threaten my friend and tell him not to fail his kid. And forget about assigning homework because none of the students will do it. My friend was out of there the second he got another offer.

      Most of the teachers who work in those schools are only there because they can't get a job elsewhere and leave as soon as they get a better offer. That is what is leading to poor inner city schools. No good teacher will stay because the children are not well behaved and the parents just don't care. I know people love to blame the government, but sometimes they only have themselves to blame.

  19. Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Funny

    As one teacher put it: 'this is like telling the football coach next year is the last year you have a varsity team.'


    No, it's like telling the football coach that next year is the last year there will be trophies awarded at the championship game. They can still have a team, there just won't be an official ranking.

    Of course the AP test credit is a lot of the value of the programme, so cancelling the test is a travesty, and might be a reason to cancel the course, especially if students spend their time taking other courses that award the credit they can use.

    But if the teachers are making that kind of analogy, they shouldn't be teaching. Not even CS classes, because thinking with analogies is more important to programming than is instruction in language syntax. It's like a football team with a coach who's really just the second-string halfback.
    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Hatta · · Score: 4, Funny

      Geeze, this is /. Is there anywhere a sports related metaphor is going to be less understood?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      I dunno, it seems that the CS teacher didn't understand the sports metaphor they were using, and they weren't misusing it on Slashdot.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by i.of.the.storm · · Score: 1

      Haha, no car analogies? Intersetingly, my AP CS teacher was also the assistant coach for the Varsity Football team, which might explain why it's so bad...

      --
      All your base are belong to Wii.
    4. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by temojen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Interestingly, my AP Chemistry Teacher was the gym teacher subbing for the chem teacher who moved to a new school. We taught him grade 12 chemistry so he could teach the next year, while we taught ourselves AP Chem (I got a 4).

      The previous semester, our Chem 12 class had pooled our money to hire a university professor for 3 hours 1 day a week, since that teacher was so bad.

    5. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      I was lucky to always have qualified teachers (except my JHS band teacher, and some elementary school wacko failed moms), and some really inspiring ones.

      Where did you go to school, that they routinely hired such losers? And how did that chem teacher's sports teams fare in their seasons?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    6. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by imikedaman · · Score: 1

      No, it's like telling the football coach that next year is the last year there will be trophies awarded at the championship game. They can still have a team, there just won't be an official ranking.
      I agree that the analogy is terrible, but for another reason entirely: memorizing how various algorithms work and performing well on tests hardly makes you a better programmer. The best programmers I knew were the ones who knew very little (and therefore performed poorly on tests and in classes), but were incredibly good at using what little they knew to make great software anyway. You know why that's possible? It's because programming isn't about rote memorization of facts and algorithms; it's about deep and complex critical thinking, a good deal of creativity and hard work, a lot of good judgement and patience, and the openness to learn from your mistakes. Testing can't cover any of that.

      Varsity players are generally better than junior varsity players. Performing well on CS tests just means you mastered a nearly irrelevant skill. I'm not saying that performing well on tests means you're a bad programmer, I'm saying there's no correlation between test scores and real-world programming abilities.
    7. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Programming is speaking in a computer language, which depends on properly thinking in that language, or an abstraction of it that you can translate into that language. If all you learn in CS is what people have written before, but not how they thought it up and wrote it, you're just going to be able to quote the old stuff. Which only goes so far: solving the old problems. A lot of CS is jus that, because the old problems are still problems, but usually the newer languages themselves incorporate those common solutions. So just speaking the language means having the old solutions.

      If all you're going to do is be the adapter between some people and a machine, the rote kind of CS training will suffice, at least for something like 80% of problems (the other 20% will be really hard, typically at least 80% of the work, according to the inevitable 80:20 rule of all programming ratios). But if you learn only the language, and how to think in it, not necessarily a book of historical solutions, the new 20% won't be that much harder than the repeatable 80% (well, probably 80% of the new 20%, anyway ;). And if you learned not just the language, but not quite the "literature", but the language well enough to describe the problem in terms of the language, then search tools like Google and SW repositories will let you find any of the literature on demand, rather than "preloading" it all before you've ever got a problem.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    8. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by mckniffen · · Score: 1

      I whole heartedly agree!

      Computer science classes fail because they are trying to take some thing that is an art in its purest form, and make it into a soulless science.

      I always thought it should be "Computer Arts"

      --
      Communism, its a party!
    9. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't think art and science are at all mutually exclusive, nor that science is at all "soulless" (unless the scientists are soulless, which they can be beaten into, like in any field).

      I always thought it was true when I heard that "computer science is about computers the way that astronomy is about telescopes". Once you get that, and maybe know some soulful astronomers, you can see how people with soul can jam on computers as hard as others jam on the saxophone.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    10. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      I agree its going to be less understood than the offside rule.

      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    11. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Tsaot · · Score: 1

      Geeze, this is /. Is there anywhere a sports related metaphor is going to be less understood?
      shine.yahoo.com?
    12. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Where did you go to school, that they routinely hired such losers?"

      Stop trolling for work.

    13. Re:Teams Without Trophies - or Competent Coaches by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself, I played four (4) years of high school football as an offensive lineman and I would have played in college too if I had been large enough, but it was not to be. I now have a CS degree and six (6) years experience as a software developer, but I still remember my football days with a certain degree of fondness and nostalgia. In fact, I am going to play in my alumni game (full-contatct) against our old cross-town rivals next year and I am training to reprise my role as an offensive lineman right now. We have so few outlets as we get older to really vent some frustrations (legally) against our fellow citizens, so for me this is the perfect opportunity to get back out there and kick some butt while proving to my wife that talk of my prowess during my glory days is not entirely misplaced.

  20. AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by Nudo · · Score: 2, Informative

    In my high school, AP classes don't exist. I'm supposed to be going to the best high school in my school district... but we don't get AP classes. It's called the inner-city.

    --
    This is a signature. Bow to me.
    1. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      Nearly the same happened to me. I've never had a real appreciation for AP classes. I, quite honestly, think they're a load of horse manure.

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    2. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by Nudo · · Score: 1

      It's not that I had no appreciation for AP classes, just that they're not offered in the dirt poor school district I go to. But I'm sure I'll be successful without them.

      --
      This is a signature. Bow to me.
    3. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      Yeah, half way through high school I moved from a relatively poor district to a very rich one (highest per capita Ph D rate in the world). The 'poor' school had next to no AP programs and I was a genius there, and the 'rich' school had everything (including snobby snobs who didn't respect you unless you'd taken ever AP course under the sun). So, I guess I've sorta been set up to hate AP classes ;)

      Never once have I seen an employer ask what types of AP classes you've taken. They're really unimportant in the long run.

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    4. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by Hatta · · Score: 1

      AP classes are loads of horse manure, but that's because the freshman college classes they're supposed to take the place of are horse manure too. If you're going right away to a 4 year college that will accept your AP credit to get out of a prereq, AP classes are a great idea. Otherwise there's little point.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by ThorGod · · Score: 1

      But, really, consider that a little bit. If you get out of the 'easy' classes in college (which those really are) you'll have less classes to weight your gpa when the horse manure really hits the fan in the junior and especially senior level classes. You might get out quicker, sure, but why?

      --
      PS: I don't reply to ACs.
    6. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by CSMatt · · Score: 1

      As of 2006, my high school has AP classes, but no AP CS. Hell, it wasn't until I saw this article that I even knew that there was an AP CS.

    7. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by CSMatt · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Who wants to work, anyway?

    8. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by Lost+Engineer · · Score: 1

      Competent AP CS teachers are hard to find. Most people who take the college level courses that teach that stuff don't go into teaching.

    9. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Au contraire...
      If you end up not doing so well in the upper classes, well you're then fucked because the AP only gives you the credit and it often doesn't count towards your [in major] GPA computation..
      And you end up screwed because you tested in and the strugglers that made B's in the initial shit ends up better off even if they made the same grade as you or maybe a letter worse in Digital Signal Processing VI..

    10. Re:AP Classes in Inner-City Schools by tony1343 · · Score: 1

      Of course employers don't ask you that. Your probably right in that they don't matter in the long run. However, AP classes did allow me to graduate with a B.S. in Computer Science in 3 years. So in that sense, they do matter.

  21. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by colinrichardday · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    So gay men never donate sperm? And lesbians never patronize sperm banks?

  22. It's not hard to imagine by adb · · Score: 1

    You stop referencing it, and next time you need more memory, the garbage collector notices and recycles it for you.

    The particulars of memory management can be worth studying, but mastering them is not a prerequisite to understanding algorithms and data structures. Sometimes you care what happens to memory you're done with, sometimes you don't. A problem with non-garbage-collecting languages like C is that, whether or not you care, it's still your problem.

    1. Re:It's not hard to imagine by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      But it's always your problem, garbage collecting or not. I found that out the hard way with the first generation C# stuff. The garbage collection was not well refined, lets say. One service that I wrote in C#, all those years ago, would balloon up like nobodies business. Objects not referenced and all. Little I could do about it. Invoking the garbage collector "by hand" was not satisfactory.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    2. Re:It's not hard to imagine by adb · · Score: 1

      If the garbage collector in your language doesn't work, or you're pushing the limits of the hardware, sure, you have to think about memory management no matter what language you're in. Like I said, it's knowledge that's worth having; it just doesn't have to be a prerequisite for basic algorithmic knowledge.

  23. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by CSMatt · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sterile humans cannot reproduce!! Say NO to the vasectomy agenda!!!!

  24. Re:Good! CS is a pseudo-subject anyway by blacklint · · Score: 1

    Actually, this year, the department of computer science was removed from my high school and AP Computer Science was moved under the department of mathematics. Which really brought about no changes other than our computer science teacher is no longer his own department head.

    And the loss of computer science AB will be a huge loss, as I learned a lot in that class. As someone else already said was possible, I did learn most of A from Teach Yourself Java in 21 Days, but B was a lot of stuff I otherwise wouldn't know (or know well). I plan on majoring in computer engineering partially due to my great experience in that class (I also love hardware, hence the plan to take a major between CS and EE). And the Marine Bio Case Study wasn't all that bad; we had some fun projects such as adding sharks in our class. Though that has been replaced with GridWorld since I took the class two years ago.

    We've had a rather large CompSci class for way longer than I've been at high school. Of course, it will never be as big as AP US History, but no one would expect it to be. Way more useful, though. Interestingly enough, I also know quite a few people in AP Latin Literature, another course being cut. Our AP French class, however, is only 3 students total. But if our school will keep a class for 3 people, I don't see why the college board can't keep a test for thousands.

  25. How about Pascal? by shawnmchorse · · Score: 1

    I took it in Pascal. Is that better or worse than C++ and Java? Morale of the story is that, as usual, the exact language doesn't particularly matter.

  26. Fake Demographic reasons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Odd (well not really) that they mention this when the latest problem in Universities is the dropping male population.
    So, they kill off the subject with the highest number of boys in it?

      The "Boy Crisis," Again

    This time from Time Magazine. There is now a real question about whether or not "affirmative action" is needed for boys in admission to college. Much of this fretting will be over-the-top and silly. Still more of it will be directed at exactly the wrong things. But I actually think some of it is going to be useful. For example, notice this comment in the article coming from the Dean of Admissions at Kenyon College who alerted the press to the practice of sidelining some stellar female applicants so as to accept more male applicants. She was indignant: But what most amazed her was the reaction of young women: by and large, they assumed this is just how things work. "Why aren't they marching in the streets? That's the part that slays me," Delahunty says. "It isn't fair, and young women should be saying something about it not being fair."

    But her counterpart at the College of William and Mary gets it: U.S. News & World Report found that the admissions rate of men at the College of William and Mary, for example, was an average of 12 percentage points higher than that of women--because, as the admissions director memorably told the magazine, "even women who enroll ... expect to see men on campus. It's not the College of Mary and Mary; it's the College of William and Mary."

    Without commenting on the question of whether schools "ought" to work to achieve parity between the sexes in admissions or whether they "ought" to take all comers based solely on their academic merit, I am just amused and pleased to see that there is some real recognition of a difference between the sexes at all! It is probably a healthy sign that the men are missed when they are missing. It gives lie to the notion that all students are the same regardless of sex. Once that is understood, then (maybe) we can talk.

    1. Re:Fake Demographic reasons. by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      There is now a real question about whether or not "affirmative action" is needed for boys in admission to college.


      I'd have to think that once the female to male ratio rises to a certian point, that'll be all the "affirmative action" most guys will need.
  27. Better than AP? by snkline · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Screw AP, here is how I got college credit early: Do well on your ACT (or SAT I guess, never had to take the SAT myself) to qualify for college substitution credits. Try to find out which courses at your local Community College will actually transfer to your preferred university. Apply with your high school and the CC to take those courses for high school credit. Upside: If you choose correctly, you probably only have community college classes two days a week, but only have to go to high school for half a day. Downside: You are probably going to school at night. If you don't pick the courses right, the best you can hope for on transferring credits is some sort of 1 credit in General Science 999999 which doesn't count towards credits for your degree...... (Seriously, I'm lucky I took a Fortran class in addition to my Object Oriented Programming class, since OOP turned out to be... Visual Basic)

    1. Re:Better than AP? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      The community college system works, except there are two potential problems. Any university worth attending will not allow any college courses taken to replace high-school requirements to count. Thus only high-school electives taken at a community college could count. The best universities will not count any college course used for any high school credit including electives.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    2. Re:Better than AP? by base3 · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that expensive, elitist private colleges are the only ones worth attending? Those are the only ones I've heard of that categorically refuse to accept college courses taken for dual credit.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    3. Re:Better than AP? by bieber · · Score: 0

      I'm graduating this year, and I've got a heap of both AP and dual enrollment credit going into university. The trick to dual enrollment is, if you're dual enrolling a class that's also offered as an AP at your high school, admissions folk aren't going to like it, because the AP courses are generally going to be harder, and if nothing else, they at least know how hard they are, whereas they know nothing about your local community college. I had to do an awful lot of work to get my 5 in BC calculus junior year, but senior year I'm dual enrolling Calc III (BC, equivalent to Calc II, is as high as AP will take you) and I'm passing no problem with a high 'A': haven't done a shred of homework, spent maybe a half hour outside class studying all semester. So, no, dual enrollment credits won't carry the same weight for admissions decisions. They may award the same credit, but you have to get in for that to count ;)

    4. Re:Better than AP? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      Did I say they are the only ones worth attending? No. I said the "best" colleges, which most people consider to be the high end private colleges. The degrees from those colleges are generally better respected than even the best University of [Statename] degrees, despite the fact that the degrees from the latter may be every bit as difficult, and may in fact indicate a better standard of work than the top private colleges. Its just the way the system works.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    5. Re:Better than AP? by snkline · · Score: 1

      True true, the dual enrollment is more for schools that don't offer much in the way of AP, which I'm guessing is alot especially in more rural areas. Another option if your school doesn't offer AP CS, is to do the dual enrollment, then take the AP test, if you don't feel comfortable with just independent study.

    6. Re:Better than AP? by base3 · · Score: 1

      You said "Any university worth attending . . ."

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    7. Re:Better than AP? by snkline · · Score: 1

      Actually you said: "Any university worth attending will not allow any college courses taken to replace high-school requirements to count." Which I suppose might be true for private schools, but most state colleges will take the dual enrollment credits. Of course, like I said, you have to be careful what courses you take, Object Oriented Programming (with Visual Basic 5.... that is right VB5.... seriously, wtf) might very well not transfer as anything meaningful. On the other hand a decent Fortran class (in... *shudder* Fortran 77) can free up those 3 required Fortran credits for your degree. Other useful dual enrollment dumps for CS majors are Humanities. Get HU101 taken care of pre-emptively, either with AP or Dual-enrollment, so you don't have to sit waiting for enrollment to open at midnight, mashing your refresh button, praying that you will get in a section that meets after 7 a.m. or get in one at all. I didn't manage to get my second semester of humanities requirement until my Junior year because of damn scheduling constraints.

    8. Re:Better than AP? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      You could just drop out of high school, go to community college, and apply to university as a transfer student. Can't you?

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    9. Re:Better than AP? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      You could just drop out of high school, go to community college, and apply to university as a transfer student. Can't you? Perhaps, but only if the community college allows you to cintinue to attend if you have dropped out of high school. I do know that it is possible to have a degree from a community college before graduating high school. (at which point if it is not already the ed of your senior year, it would seem to be pointless to continue, no?
      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    10. Re:Better than AP? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      Honestly, even when you're 16 or so it's not exactly difficult to pass the GED, and most community colleges will accept that in lieu of high school.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  28. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Actually, it WAS Adam and Steve. that's what happens when you read a poor translation.

  29. AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by jmichaelg · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have a friend who teaches an AP science class at a a local high school. The high school produces about half the National Merit scholars in the county despite the fact it's a tiny school of some 200 students. The science department has battled the humanities department for years over whether to keep AP courses or not. The humanities would just as soon see them gone.

    A year ago, the science department almost gave in when the AP organization required each teacher to explain in detail how they met the AP curricula requirements. That added another teacher work day to an already harried schedule. She typically works late into the night grading work and the last thing she wanted to do was to spend an extra unpaid work day justifying her course to the AP organization. She figured it was enough that her average student AP score is 4.8 - the hell with how she does it.

    Adding more steps to any program guarantees you'll lose some participants. Perhaps that's what the AP board intended with their new regs.

  30. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by jmpeax · · Score: 1, Troll

    Say NO to the fundamentalist religious agenda. It is one of hatred, control and paranoia.

    Take your propaganda elsewhere - it is not welcome here.

  31. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    If you ever read anything beyond the bible, you might have figured out that even totally straight people can have gay offspring, in case of gays who are genetic-gays, this can be written off to random mutations.

    Study. What you need is to study something useful.

  32. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by Kozz · · Score: 1

    Of course, "not Adam and Steve". It's Adam and Steven.

    --
    I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
  33. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by sitarah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Adding more steps to any program guarantees you'll lose some participants. Perhaps that's what the AP board intended with their new regs."

    No, the College Board introduced the AP Audit because some of their members, the colleges, said that they were seeing too many students with AP classes on their records that were completely half-assed and not even college prep level. The kids took the exam and consistently failed because the teachers were not teaching the exam topics, but labeling regular history as "AP History, take the exam if you feel like".

    This was troublesome for both kids and admissions counselors. They thought they were getting a college prep class and/or that they'd be able to score a 4 on the exam, and neither were true. Similarly, the college that admitted them thought that they were either not so smart for failing that AP exam or thought they had a much more rigorous high school career than they did.

  34. On lack of consultation... by zkiwi34 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It would appear they didn't even consult or even inform the group of people who prepare the curriculum and write the exams either. Clearly, they had already made up their mind to ditch it and didn't want to inconvenience themselves with a justification of it. Ah well, I guess AP/A will now tank, and districts will go "Hmmm, AP/A wasn't getting our kids any college advantage, and now there's just it to offer, so let's save ourselves some money and drop ComSci completely from our course offerings. After all, computers are expensive, where can you find teachers willing to do it etc etc blah blah." I guess the states or the federal government (yeah, it's not a realistic view) might want to take on setting up a decent 9-12th grade ComSci course sequence to make sure that ComSci teaching doesn't completely collapse in the US.

  35. the reason by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

    the board realized that too many classes were being taught as "AP" CS classes and they really did not teach the students anything.

  36. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by simcop2387 · · Score: 1

    he most certainly did create steve. i mean who else was going to bother?

  37. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by neomunk · · Score: 1

    Actually, I thought it was Adam and Lilith, but hey, I read too much or something.

  38. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 1

    Do you believe that there are any other kinds of gays? Do you think that somebody can genuinely change sexual preference due to social factors (i.e. molestation, rape, identifying way too strongly with their same-sex parent etc)?

    As a man, all I have to say is I could never give up my enjoyment of breasts.

    --
    "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
  39. Good Riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I say it's great that they're killing that particular AP exam. All throughout my university years, any time I ran into another student that claimed to have received a 4 or 5 on either the CS A or CS AB exams, they invariably were absolutely terrible at doing such basics as determining the big-O of a function, or how operator precedence works, or how to use compiler error messages to track down syntax errors. You can keep the courses, but the only point to the exam is to try to skip out of the intro course in college, which IMO is a bad idea; want to skip out of the intro course, do it the same way you skip out of intro language courses, or math courses... take a placement exam based on the actual course(s) final exam(s).

  40. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by Maestro485 · · Score: 1

    Lonely Slashdot readers cannot reproduce!!! Say no to the right-hand agenda!!!

  41. LOL! by pkdgoer · · Score: 0

    hah...ahahah!... BAHAHAHA

  42. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by DeepHurtn! · · Score: 1
    It's not so much a question of *changing* sexual preference, as much as it is recognizing that sexual preference is socially constructed in the first place. Yes, that includes the idea of exclusive heterosexuality. It's not "natural", it's not the default state -- but a socially constructed identity. Historically speaking, relatively few cultures have constructed "sexuality" (itself a rather recent historical concept) as an exclusive either/or situation.

    If you're interested in this sorta stuff, a great place to start is Foucault's "History of Sexuality".

  43. lucky me? by masshuu · · Score: 1

    Next year im taking comp Sci AB, so im gona be one of the last people to take it. Considering theres 8 people in my Comp Sci A, and im usually helping the teacher with the code, and the other kids hardly care for the class. I think im gona be the only one in AB next year.

    --
    O.o
    1. Re:lucky me? by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Do us a favor and spell properly. Congratulations, AB is a fabulous class and I wish you luck, but us nerds should be at least eloquent... If you're into CompSci, you will enjoy AB a lot. But prepare to be challenged.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    2. Re:lucky me? by masshuu · · Score: 1

      im sorry. im slightly freaking out cause parts of my computer are breaking and i seem to have low blood sugar atm... but anyways, its not hard at all right now. Since it normally takes me about 5-10 min(more if its complicated) to finish any project for the class.

      --
      O.o
  44. GENIUS POST. MOD PARENT UP PAST 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AP classes do not prepare you for university work (or at least earn you the equivalent university credit). I had a friend who got a 5 on a Calc 2 test and he still had to retake the college class. I took an AP Bio class, and I felt I wasn't prepared for the AP test, even though I got a B in the class.

    If students are looking for challenging work, they should try taking their preferred course at a community college, or just do community service! There are several ways to woo a university.

  45. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Half the national merit scholars? The national merit scholarship website says that there are 15,000 finalists per year and about 8,200 awards given out. I don't see how a quarter of 200 or even 200 is close to half.

  46. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    Do you believe that there are any other kinds of gays? - certainly there are. It just maybe fashionable or profitable 'to be' gay.
  47. As a student currently taking it by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

    Best class I've ever taken. I took A last year, it wasn't very useful. Theory-based, all console Java (which is a marvelous language to learn as your first real language - VB doesn't count).

    This class is ridiculous. Hash tables/maps, binary search trees/maps, heapsort, quicksort, Big-Oh, linked lists (and doubly-linked lists), stacks and queues

    That's only in the AB class. Without this class, it is impossible to learn these concepts in a normal high school. That's the real thing - an APCS AB 5 actually means you understand important concepts in programing (no linked lists??) and an A class lets you get your feet wet.

    I'd love to see their reasoning. This is the only computer course I've been challenged in (still working on removing an entry from a binary search tree - it's more complicated than it works) and it should be kept. We're far enough behind in technology without a decent standardized CS program in high-school.

    --
    I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:As a student currently taking it by mckniffen · · Score: 1

      public void delete(int id){
      TreeNode temp = rootNode;

      if(((idpair)temp.getValue()).id == id){
      temp = temp.getRight();
      while(temp.getLeft() != null){
      temp = temp.getLeft();
      }
      temp.setLeft(rootNode.getLeft());
      rootNode = rootNode.getRight();
      return;
      }

      The type idpair is a just basically a struct that has a value for the id and inv values (this is assuming that you are doing the same assignment I had to do last month). Should work universally with a little editing. Best wishes

      --
      Communism, its a party!
    2. Re:As a student currently taking it by linj · · Score: 1

      I'd say that the impossible part of "learning these concepts in a normal high school" is probably the limitations of your peers. The most challenging computer course I've had hitherto is one offered by CTY, where, in three weeks, we covered all those--hash tables, binary trees, heapsort, quicksort, Big-O, linked lists, stacks, and queues.

      The biggest problem with a normal high school is that many of your peers don't actually care about the subject matter; they might only care about joy!-college!. At programs that truly try to challenge students (and I have no doubt you'd've probably been a much better candidate than I was; I was and still am a horrible CS student) and inspire them, students learn a lot quicker. Example for how much the kiddies at CTY were interested in CS? They were salivating over the prof's depiction of the sorting algorithm of Big-O of n. And to date, bucket sort is still my favorite sort (as limited as it is). Way back then, it didn't even have a Wikipedia article...

    3. Re:As a student currently taking it by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I'm in a small high school (130ish people a class), there's not enough interest in CS to have more than the 3 classes offered (Intro to VB-not really CS, APCSA and AB)

      If there were more people interested in it, higher-level classes would be offered, and a greater variety... but alas, money

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    4. Re:As a student currently taking it by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Hmm. Interesting. I was doing it a little more complexly (aaaand FF isn't complaining, therefore it's a word!)

      I'll have to check that out. rootNode=rootNode.getRight() - shifts the root to the right. Is yours a binary search tree? I thought there was more to it...

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  48. End of an era by CmdrPorno · · Score: 1

    Wow... I took AP Computer Science A during my junior year of high school, and received a 5 out of 5 on the AP exam. I took AB during my senior year and received a 5 out of 5 again.

    My undergraduate college failed to properly credit the college credit for the AB exam. After several hours going back and forth between the admissions office and the Computer Science department head, I finally got it resolved. Their explanation was that no student had ever come in with AB credit before.

    --
    Sent from my iPhone
    1. Re:End of an era by drxenos · · Score: 1

      How long ago was this? I took AB and got a 5 out of 5 back in '85. Never had a problem with the college giving me credit. Those test aren't very hard. I'm sure a lot of people got a perfect score. I also took Calculus AB and got straight 100s. I couldn't afford the test required for college credit, though. They cost $10 a piece (at the time), and my family was very poor.

      --


      Anonymous Cowards suck.
    2. Re:End of an era by CmdrPorno · · Score: 1

      2000. Apparently, no one who went to my university had ever qualified for the AB credit, so it hadn't been set up in their system.

      --
      Sent from my iPhone
  49. So whats the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    People really aren't interested in programming in the first case, and fewer and fewer companies really care to hire people who 'know computers' more than the very basic fundamentals. I don't believe we are in a 'programmer crisis, or that there is an 'I.T. worker shortage'. Its all just a big pile of steaming rubbish told by Bill Gates, because no one is interested in making him yet another billion dollars, while he pays them somewhere between scale and minimum wage. But its a common story. Why pay anyone in the first world to write software, when you can pay someone in the 3rd world two pennies on the dollar to do the job? Shipping software worldwide is much faster than any other kind of shipment, and no Kathy Lee Gifford problems happen with software. No one cares where it comes from, or what sweat shop made it. That the course is being dumped is no surprise, the only thing that made me raise my eyebrows is that its being done now. It should have been done 7 years ago.

  50. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i call b.s. a h.s. of 200 graduates 50/year. there are more than 100 national merit scholars per year. in fact http://www.nationalmerit.org/ says there are 55k/year.

  51. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by ealex292 · · Score: 1

    Um. Half the National Merit scholars in the country? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Merit, "about 8,200 receive Merit Scholarship awards" (yes, Wikipedia is a horrible source --- but that matches pretty closely my memory from earlier this year when I got my letter...). I don't see how your tiny school could produce 4,100 scholarship winners.

  52. C++ solutions aren't reasonable... by tjstork · · Score: 1

    C++ does too in their standard libraries.

    I would say that the C++ standard library containers are useful but not necessarily reasonable. There's problems with just putting any old object into them, in the way you can with a Java or a C# container.

    --
    This is my sig.
  53. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by allanw · · Score: 1

    The high school produces about half the National Merit scholars in the county despite the fact it's a tiny school of some 200 students.

    Prepositions are important :)

  54. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't read. He said half the National Merit scholars in the county . Notice the lack of an 'r'.

  55. Re:Good! CS is a pseudo-subject anyway by rukidding · · Score: 0

    (I also love hardware, hence the plan to take a major between CS and EE). And the Marine Bio Case Study wasn't all that bad; we had some fun projects such as adding sharks in our class.

    You would have loved my first job out of school. I got a degree in Computer Science and Engineering where I was able to study both hardware and software. When I graduated I worked for a company that built hardware and software for a lot of marine biologist research labs. I got to learn a lot about their work. Keep up your studies because the careers that will become available to you when you graduate are very very cool.
    --
    ...
  56. If only my HS offered any programming classes by GamerCon · · Score: 1

    My High-School offers no programming classes at all, so naturally no AP classes. I went to a local community college as a dual enrollment student to take programming classes. It all works out though, I'm majoring in computer science at Northeastern.

    1. Re:If only my HS offered any programming classes by BountyX · · Score: 1

      haha do you know somone named Adrian Wisernig? If so, tell him a random /. comment mentioned him.

      --
      Trying to install linux on my microwave, but keep getting a kernel panic...
  57. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by BungaDunga · · Score: 4, Funny

    Celibate humans cannot reproduce! Say NO to the ANTI SEX agenda!!!

  58. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The high school produces about half the National Merit scholars in the county despite the fact it's a tiny school of some 200 students

    Really? Over 10,000 scholarships are awarded each year from the National Merit Foundation. Your math may be a little off, or perhaps you meant something different?

  59. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suspect most of who we are--sexually and otherwise--is more nurture than nature. Personally, the vast majority of my sexual and romantic feelings are for children. This is very deep-seeded in my personality and I feel similar to you in that `I could never give up' what about them I find appealing.

    Understanding my sexuality can be confusing for me. Virtually all of the scientific research and social discussion on people with attraction to children has been done regarding child molesters; this is like trying to learn about straight sexuality by studying and talking about only men who rape women. Little valuable information would be gained.

    In any event, I know I had some unusual experiences when I was young. I have managed to anonymously meet a lot of people like me on the internet, and virtually all of us seem to have had unusual experiences when we were children. I know not everyone who had those experiences became like us, but it seems like something in our pasts have led to the feelings we have.

    I'm sort of babbling aimlessly. I do not understand what it is like to be straight or gay or bi in traditional senses, so I provided the input I could from my perspective. I know that I definitely see my experiences as influencing who I am sexually today.

  60. Java is FINE! by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

    Another part is that Java already has reasonable solutions in the standard libraries for any fundamental structure. This makes all work purely academic. This isn't necessarily a big deal, but can affect motivation. Unless you're forbidden from using those libraries per terms of your academic projects! I wrote a recursive descent compiler (front end, parsed Pascal) and several layers of the TCP/IP stack (forgot which layers, but we had to do a (manual) CRC check in one of them) in Java!

    The nice thing is that once you know how the basics work, your prof can say "Remember all those crazy methods you had to write to do simple stuff? Here are the libraries to do it in one line!"

    It's almost like a programming language with "hard" and "easy" modes...
    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
  61. Applied Math/Science vs Academics by Dareth · · Score: 1

    There is a great need for something tangible to apply the skills you learn in all the math and science courses. What are the practical applications? Why should one simplify any equation? Why should I do anything "with respect to the y axis"? Sometimes it is helpful to see the actual results of this knowledge as it is applied to something practical and closer to the real world we live in. Computers provide enough raw "abstract material" to build things that are very much real and practical. There needs to be something at the top of the learning curve to justify the climb. Computer Science is the tangible result of all the academic study.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  62. Re: College Board Kills AP Computer Science AB by bitrunner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, I don't think it is a big loss. Don't get me wrong. I think it is great that high schools prepare students by learning them some computer skills. However, things I see is that freshmen, in a computer science course, lack the basic skills. They seem to have almost no skills when it comes to math, physics or even general problem solving skills. Heck most freshman can't even spell. (And when they spell something wrong it's not even done in a consistent way). Something else. It seems that students are taught things either wrong, out of context, or in the wrong context. That is really an obstacle, for the student AND a teacher in college. You won't believe how often the phrase "Well, than your computer science teacher in HS had it wrong" sentence is used in the first year in college. So if I would be asked, and actually that question was asked at the ACM SIGCSE meetings this spring, what it is students should be taught the answer would be: Math, geometry, how the solve 'logic' problems etc etc. I do think it is a good idea to teach HS students computer skills, focusing on that would help quite a bit. I don't mind that students are shown some simple programming 'things'. However you won't believe how many students do know how to wrongly create all kinds of code but are not able to copy a zip file from one drive to another and extract it in such a way that it results in an organized way of storing their lab and project work. The wrong 'programming' techniques we can usually fix but the lack of math, logic, geometry, science/physics etc is something that keeps haunting them all the way through college.

  63. Poor analogy by rwa2 · · Score: 1

    Does anyone here understand the "football varsity team" analogy? As a CS nerd, I'm afraid I don't get it, please explain :P

  64. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

    I've read my Foucault, and it is something of an overstatement to say that "sexual preference is socially constructed."

    For one thing, Foucault would claim that it is historically constructed. And it wouldn't be "sexual preference" that was constructed that way, it would "heterosexuality" as a kind of clinical term which places the gender of the love-object as the foregrounded element in sexual identity. Language is often an indicator of the way that sexuality is organized: often, it is whether the male is active or receptive that is more important as a marker of sexual identity, than whether the sex partner is male or female.

    But he - and no informed contemporary commentator - would say that all sexual preferences are "socially constructed." Only that there is a lot that happens between infantile and childhood pre-sexual drives and their organization in adults, and that the process of what happens is one that has developed historically, and now takes a primarily diagnostic shape.

  65. Re:AP Board is screwing up in more than one way by jmichaelg · · Score: 1

    This was troublesome for both kids and admissions counselors. They thought they were getting a college prep class and/or that they'd be able to score a 4 on the exam, and neither were true. Similarly, the college that admitted them thought that they were either not so smart for failing that AP exam or thought they had a much more rigorous high school career than they did.

    Both those mis-perceptions are easily dealt with by simply requiring the schools to divulge their teacher's class average AP score to both incoming students and admission counselors. If a student sees that the average AP score for last year's class was 2, it's a flag to the student that the teacher isn't up to snuff. Similarly, if a college admission's officer sees a student with a 4 in a class whose average is 2, that's a huge flag that the student is exceptional.

    The AP test was intended to get around grade inflation. A school can offer loads of "AP Classes" but if the outcomes aren't verified by the tests, then it's an obvious indicator that the school is inflating what they're offering. Requiring a teacher to fill out reams of paper isn't going to improve the outcomes. Especially if she's a good teacher who is already too damn busy teaching and is pissed she's being required to justify her work when her average AP score is a 4.8. The number speaks for itself far better than any form could.

  66. I meant what I wrote by jmichaelg · · Score: 1
    half the National Merit scholars in the county.

    A typical year has somewhere around 20-30 National Merit scholars in our county (not country). The school, on average, produces 10-16. That's out of a class of 60. It's a very good school with very good teachers.
       

  67. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

    Neo-natal development can be just as strong a formative influence as genetics, and homosexuality hasn't been pinned down to either yet. Heck, even childhood development can be a strong formative experience. (For instance, I've heard theories that one reason we like boobies so much is because we weren't breastfed enough as babies. I've also heard theories that round perky breasts are better for safely feeding infants, so our preference is naturally selected, and perhaps sexually selected on top of that.)

    --
    In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  68. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by fatalGlory · · Score: 1

    Telling people to read beyond the bible is good advice, but so is the advice to read the bible at a deeper (ie. scholar's as opposed to raving slashdotter's) level.

    This may surprise some readers, but a truly orthodox and "fundamentalist" reading of the bible (one by someone who takes the whole bible to be the inspired word of God) shows that it is not because of an inability to reproduce that God condemns homosexual acts as immoral.

    Leviticus 18 simply lumps homosexuality in with adultery, bestiality and various forms of incest as being unlawful - that is, being in contrast or opposition to the way the designer of good sex says that sex is best.

    If Linus Torvalds gives you a hot quad-core box with all the latest parts running Kubuntu - you don't think he'd be a bit disappointed if you were to format it and install Vista Basic?

    Flamebait not intended.

    --
    Censorship is the opposite of education. If neo-darwinism were defensible, people would not need to try and censor ID.
  69. cs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 2001 I was a freshman in high school. I was in the only intro to CS class which had about 20 kids in it. We learned basic C++. I think over 1/2 the class got a C or worse. The NEXT level up CS class the following year there were about 7 people in my class. The next year they got rid of all CS classes, and this is from a pretty wealthy NJ town if that matters. It probably didn't help that the only CS teacher in the class was weird - reminded me of that guy from Silence of the Lambs. It puts the lotion on its skin...

  70. AB is being eliminated, not A by leek · · Score: 1

    Reports of CS AP's death have been greatly exaggerated.

    Only the harder AB is being eliminated. The easy A (no pun intended) will remain.

    When I took CS AP 21 years ago, there was only one CS AP test, and it had Pascal.

    There were two Calculus tests, AB and BC. This CS change would be analogous to eliminating the harder Calculus BC, but keeping the AB.

    It represents a dumbing down.

  71. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by tyrione · · Score: 1

    Actually, I thought it was Adam and Lilith, but hey, I read too much or something. It was, but the parent poster was hilarious on his sarcasm regarding the translations from Hebrew[we love the desert!]->Greek[what isle of lesbos?]->Latin->[getting weaker with ever Constantine smudging]->King James [oh my gawd! he hates these cans edition!]
  72. Re:GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

    Oh, sure, drag Midrash into this.