Scammers Exploit DTV Coupon Program

An anonymous reader writes "Analog TV users must purchase a DTV converter box before broadcasts go digital in 2009, and the US Government is offering $40 coupons to support the transition. The coupon program requires retailers to become certified by the NTIA (the Government body running the program) before processing orders for the boxes. Apparently the certification program is a bit lax, as the frenzy to purchase DTV boxes using these coupons seems to have drawn unscrupulous fraud artists into the mix. Memsen, via its web site convertmy.tv and its hardware partner Maxmedia, partnered apparently to pull a bait-and-switch game on unsuspecting consumers and the US Government." Read on for details of the scam claimed by this anonymous reader.

Maxmedia and convertmy.tv (CMTV) together promoted the Maxmedia MMDTVB03, which appeared to be the most feature-rich of the coupon-eligible converter boxes. The box drew public interest and even coverage by 3rd-party review sites.

CMTV quickly took pre-orders for the box, and promised delivery first in April, 2008, and later pushed the date back to May. The company immediately redeemed the Government coupons (in violation of the program rules, which prohibit back-ordering) and charged customer credit cards. Early-adopting consumers were willing to overlook these practices, feeling they would eventually own the best box on the market.

CMTV yesterday announced that they would not be shipping the MMDTVB03 at all — it would be replaced by the MMDTVB02, which they claim will have a better picture. Of course, the "new & improved" box will not ship until June. As an alternative, CMTV indicated it would allow customers to switch to an inferior box for $5 less.

Consumers are outraged by CMTV/MaxMedia's bait-and-switch tactics but are having difficulty finding out who these companies really are. Neither company publishes physical addresses or phone numbers on their web sites, and consumers have resorted to their own detective work to find the info.

As of April 8, 2008, the convertmy.tv web site is still accepting and processing orders for the "new" MMDTVB02 — in clear violation of the NTIA program rules, which only allows coupons to be applied to DTV boxes on its approved list.

Comments

Misleading summary

[Gothmolly]

Analog TV users are not REQUIRED to purchase a converter box. A converter box is needed if you wish to continue to view over-the-air TV after the transition. Big difference. It's not like Europa.

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. You should attempt no landings there.

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if it is anything like here in the UK, you will have to

• pay someone hundreds of dollarpoundeuros to put a new TV aerial up on your roof
  
• (possibly hiring a cherry picker vehicle because health and safety laws don't allow for the use of "ladders" any more, or see what you can get away with),
  
• carefully point it in the right direction using high-tech pointing device, then
  
• add a powered signal booster on the shared aerial, then
  
• add another signal booster on your freeview box, then
  
• still not receive all the channels because some multiplexes are broadcasting at the power of a rusted bicycle dynamo, and most importantly
  
• lose signal completely whenever anyone in a blasted stupid 50cc moped pizza delivery fart machine is driving within 1km (half a mile) of your house, usually when Jon Stewart is getting to the punch line. Yes I live on the main road.
  

Re: Misleading summary

[Alwin Henseler]

Analog TV users are not REQUIRED to purchase a converter box. A converter box is needed if you wish to continue to view over-the-air TV after the transition. Big difference. It's not like Europa. Different from Europe, how? I live in the Netherlands, you're not REQUIRED to purchase anything, and you have similar choices here:

• You can watch cable TV
• You can watch TV using some ADSL internet/phone/TV combo package
• You can get a satellite receiver
• You can watch DVD's and read books, OR

For the small remaining group, your analog TV is useless these days, unless you get a DVB-T receiver. You can buy that and watch the public channels (3 here) for free, or get a subscription and watch your basic cable selection of channels. In that case, a simple/basic receiver will be thrown in for free as well, in the shape of a coupon/refund. Note: that's in the Netherlands, but may be different in other countries in Europe.

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The rebate form has issues as well.

They asked me how many tvs I have have...two. How many on a cable box? Two. You don't need a converter box, goodbye...

What if I decide to cancel cable in two years???

I had to redo the form saying no cable boxes to get the cards...

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

We on Uranus do not have TV. We'd get sh*tty reception, anyway.

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

I was denied a coupon and when I requested a reason, the govt site replied after 8 weeks that my apartment was a business address. News to me, guys. Hello, Dilbert.

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

If you do land there, watch out for the black converter box, that has a height of 9, a width of 4 and a depth of 1 ( the cubes of 1,2 and 3).

Re:Misleading summary

[Sen.NullProcPntr]

The form wouldn't go through for me when I listed my address with my apartment number as 3 - "invalid apartment number" (or something). Tried with and without "#", etc. all "invalid".
So on a whim I put "C" as the apartment number (same thing really) and it went through. But the next page was a message saying the address is listed as single family in their records with some vague threat about misrepresenting my eligibility. I just clicked the box indicating that the address was correct and it appeared to go through (got a confirmation number).
Need to dig up the receipt and check status on the website. I had given up but it looks like they are intentionally delaying mailing the coupons.

Re:Misleading summary

[sjames]

Analog TV users are not REQUIRED to purchase a converter box. A converter box is needed if you wish to continue to view over-the-air TV after the transition. Big difference. It's not like Europa.

I suppose they COULD just turn the TV into a planter...

They ARE required to buy a converter if they wish to maintain the same functionality they have now. There are people who don't have cable for various reasons. There are even some that can't get cable. Others may wish to watch one thing over the air and record another from cable.

Re:Misleading summary

[Retron]

Or alternatively, if you're in the UK, it can go like this:

Buy a box, plug it into your 20-year-old, roughly pointing in the right direction aerial and get perfect reception, despite being 20 miles away from the transmitter and using a weedy non-amplified non-high-gain aerial. For some of us, it just works!

Re:Misleading summary

[Matrix2110]

...Analog TV users are not REQUIRED to purchase a converter box. A converter box is needed if you wish to continue to view over-the-air ...

Quite right.

And also it should be said that the converter box is not going to turn your grandmas old black and white into HDTV which is a completely different standard and not designed to be backward compatible with current analog sets. The big bro ha ha here is only older sets that don't have a digital tuner that they need to pull off air signals. If you have Dish or cable you are ok. If you have an early model of the HDTV sets you should check because a good deal of those early models shipped without a digital tuner because they were so expensive at the time.

Again this about over the air for analog tuner televisions only.

Having said that, I really have serious doubts that the government can get its act together enough to make the 2009 deadline. I know for a fact that broadcasters are having a difficult time keeping all the balls in the air (SD, HD, 16x9, 4x3, crop, pillers, up converting and down converting to name a few)

I also know that the government is going to blitz the airwaves a LOT between now and 2009 with mandatory promotional spots which should drive up the hype even harder.

Not surprising to see crooks so ready to fleece the public and the government both over the attention.

Also adoption of HDTV equipment (Cameras, switchers ect.) is slow by TV stations because it is very expensive.

Don't hold your breath over that deadline.

Re:Misleading summary

[erayd]

Wasn't the one on Europa lying down (h4, w9)?

Re:Misleading summary

[electrictroy]

>>>"They ARE required to buy a converter if they wish to maintain the same functionality they have now"

That is a false statement. My brother wants to "maintain the same functionality" that he has now. Does he need to buy a DTV Converter box? No. Absolutely not. Because he has cable, and the cable provides analog signals for his analog set. (Similarly a Dish or Satellite viewer does not need to buy a DTV Converter box.)

Only people who watch TV using an antenna will need to upgrade their sets with a DTV Converter box.

Re:Misleading summary

[electrictroy]

The U.S. is identical to the U.K. experience you just described.

Re:Misleading summary

[sjames]

Part of the functionality your brother has now is the ability to tune in the broadcast signals should his cable go out or he decides to cancel it. If he does not buy the converter, he will lose that functionality.

He may not USE that functionality, so he may not feel the loss, but that doesn't make it non-existant.

Re:Misleading summary

[electrictroy]

>>>"Part of the functionality your brother has now is the ability to tune in the broadcast signals should his cable go out.... "

Nope. No antenna.
He truly has no need for an off-the-air DTV box (which is why he gave me his two coupons).

Re:Misleading summary

[KingPrad]

That's the best use of that line I have ever seen! Kudos!

Re:Misleading summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice 2010 reference HAL.

You can't be serious.

[faedle]

So, let me get this straight.

You gave your credit card information to a company you've never heard of that has no contact information on their website that you did not validate?

Hahahahahahahahaha.

Re:You can't be serious.

[Bryansix]

Seriously. Everybody who ordered one should just dispute the charges with their credit card company. The massive influx of disputes will make the merchant bank close their merchant account and then their out of business like they should be.

Re:You can't be serious.

[faedle]

Problem. They have already "redeemed" the $40 coupons issued by the US Government, and it would appear that consumers are out the "money" (on both counts: the NTIA has paid the retailer, and the consumer doesn't get their $40 off the converter).

It seems doubly stupid, given the fact that a lot of people have had good luck with the Zenith converter being sold at your corner Radio Shack store.

Re:You can't be serious.

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you be insightful when you can't get their /they're right?

Re:You can't be serious.

[DaveWick79]

Not Really. If you complain, the merchant bank will issue a chargeback to their bank account and they will take money from them. You'll get back whatever was charged to your credit card. However the taxpayer will be out their $40 (just why do all the rich people have to pay so poor people can have DTV, I don't know) which is what really stinks. They should have a special place in jail for scammers like this.

Re:You can't be serious.

[CheeseTroll]

I don't disagree with you that people should be more careful shopping online. But in their defense, convertmytv.com is listed on the official gov't coupon site as a valid online retailer, which might give one the impression that they're legit.

Re:You can't be serious.

[FreakWent]

Please provide figures and sources displaying that the bulk of taxation falls upon the personal finances of the rich people in your country, because I bet it's not true.

I'd also point out that the poor people end up in the armed forces protecting the cash flows of the rich, so I reckon they get the worse end of the deal.

Lastly, I'd point out that the poor people were/are by and large pretty happy with the TV sets they have, and it was not the poor people who made the decision to shut off the broadcast signal.

Re:You can't be serious.

[faedle]

Great, so you get back $20.

Meanwhile, they've pocketed $40 of taxpayer dollars.

I fail to see how this is a "lose" for the scammers.

Re:You can't be serious.

[faedle]

While data for the last tax year isn't available, from 2000 the top 10% of all taxpayers paid 40.1% of the income tax paid to the Federal government, while those earning less than $20k a year represented around 5% of the total tax liability paid.

Even though the top 10% only represents 2.2% of all taxpayers, and those in the under 20% bracket represent over 30% of all taxpayers.

http://www.house.gov/jct/x-45-00.pdf

Now shut up.

Re:You can't be serious.

[faedle]

Trusting the US Government is about as stupid as trusting a website with a PO Box listed on the domain registration and no phone number or address on the Contact Us.. page.

Re:You can't be serious.

[tepples]

(just why do all the rich people have to pay so poor people can have DTV, I don't know) So that the government can continue to broadcast emergency alerts. People both rich and poor benefit from receiving emergency alerts.

Re:You can't be serious.

[BarefootClown]

Certainly: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923085.html
Reading the (clearly-marked) chart, the top 1% earn about 17% of income, yet pay better than 24% of taxes. In other words, more than a third of our taxes fall upon the finances of the top 1%. More than half ("the bulk") fall upon the top 5%, who earn only 31%. This pattern continues.

Really, this is nothing new, or controversial, or even remotely disputed.

(Incidentally, the claim that the "poor people end up in the armed forces" has also been debunked, but I'll leave proof of that as an exercise to the reader.)

Re:You can't be serious.

[link5280]

To put your data into the proper perspective, the top 10% collect 46.44% of the income (2007). So if your data is correct, they represent 40% of taxes paid, that doesn't sound so bleak.
  http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

Anyway, to stay on topic those who want to watch OTA tv get your rebate coupons and buy the digital tuner from a reputable dealer.

Re:You can't be serious.

[pin0chet]

According to the link you posted, the top 10% of earners (greater than $103,912 a year) earn 46.44% of aggregate gross income, but pay 70.30% of total federal income tax receipts. Seems pretty unfair to me. Also, the bottom 50% (earning below $30,881) earn 12.83% of income but pay a mere 3.07% of taxes. I make $29k a year so I suppose I shouldn't complain, but someday I hope to make six figures and I am not looking forward to paying 1 of 3 dollars I earn to the government.

Re:You can't be serious.

[electrictroy]

While I am no fan of progressive tax (having paid $16,000 last year!),

in this instance the money doesn't come from taxpayers. The money for the $40 DTV coupons comes from the sale of channels 52-83 to businesses like Google, Comcast, AT&T, et cetera. It's the corporations that are funding the coupons w/ the U.S. government acting as the middleman handling the money.

Re:You can't be serious.

[electrictroy]

You recommended the Zenith. Unfortunately the Zenith does not have an S-video output, which means it will look like crap on your set (I have one, and it suffers chroma blur). It also lacks a VCR Timer, thus obsoleting your favorite VCR or DVR recorder from doing time-shifting.

That's why people avoided buying it, and instead wanted the higher-quality Maxmedia or Echostar brands.

Recommending a substitute that doesn't do the same job is not a good recommendation.

Re:You can't be serious.

[electrictroy]

That's progressive tax in a nutshell.

If I were president, I'd push for a 0% rate for anyone below $100,000 (i.e. the lower and middle income americans). They'd still be required to pay sales tax, electric tax, phone tax, cellphone tax, cable tax, internet tax, gasoline/road tax, natural gas tax, medicare tax, unemployment tax, welfare tax, social security tax, ....., and State Income tax.

As long as the lower and middle incomes are paying all those other taxes, then they are paying their fair share to society, and no need to add U.S. tax on top of it.

Re:You can't be serious.

[electrictroy]

The government hands you a $40 coupon.
They supply you a list of retailers where you can redeem said coupon.
So what exactly are you supposed to do?

Ignore the list, and throw away the free money coupon, simply because you "don't trust U.S. government"? Silly. If you want to redeem the $40, you have no choice. You HAVE to go with the list provided.

Re:You can't be serious.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Zenith boxes (and any boxes that use the LG chipset) have a serious audio problem when decoding Dolby Digital 5.1 broadcasts causing bad distortion in the left audio channel. This has been proven on numerous boxes by the folks over at AVS and also confirmed by CNet reviews.

If it were not for this, the Zenith would be a good box, but as it is, it's unusable. Amazing the government approved it.

The reason a lot of people got suckered in on the MaxMedia was that a couple people were pimping the company with quotes from the executives promising things, and the box looked great from the specs -- it had everything people wanted that the current boxes didn't -- S video output, smart antenna and analog pass-through. This was also available on the Echostar but that was publicly delayed til June so people thought this was a good deal.

Though they were the ones stupid enough to hand over their gov card info and now lost it.

Re:You can't be serious.

[Anonymous Coward]

While data for the last tax year isn't available, from 2000 the top 10% of all taxpayers paid 40.1% of the income tax paid to the Federal government, while those earning less than $20k a year represented around 5% of the total tax liability paid.

Income tax is only one of many many taxes. Yet it's the only one anti-tax conservative seem to care about. Payroll taxes are the worst. The rich hardly pay any. If you look at total taxes, you'll find the poor pay the highest tax rate, followed by the middle class.

Yep

[rastoboy29]

Don't do business with internet sites that don't have any possible non-internet based mode of contact.  Like a phone number.  Or an address.

Interestingly, as an aside, all the credit reporting services run sites like that.  Which makes them pretty shady in my book.

Re:Yep

[Vellmont]

Interestingly, as an aside, all the credit reporting services run sites like that.

Huh? Each of the 3 major credit reporting companies (transunion, equifax, and experian) have 800 numbers, and physical addresses to contact them at. I'm not sure if they're such great companies, but there's nothing particularly shady about them.

Re:Yep

[Veroxii]

Like google. Just try and get someone on the phone. Heck, try and get a phone number off their site.

Re:Yep

[Urza9814]

Google Inc.
1600 Amphitheatre Parkway
Mountain View, CA 94043
Phone: +1 650-253-0000
Fax: +1 650-253-0001

Main page > About Google > Contact Us

Re:Yep

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they really need that many numbers??

Re:Yep

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Each of the 3 major credit reporting companies (transunion, equifax, and experian) have 800 numbers, and physical addresses to contact them at. I don't think he meant the agencies that report to corps, but rather the variety of websites that sell you access to your own credit report(s) with optional services like emailing you every time there is change to your report.

They seem like a bunch of over-priced profiteers cashing in on problems and fears of problems like identity theft.

Re:Yep

[Anonymous Coward]

Stay away from Adaptive Marketing LLC! They're bad! Google them and see for yourself.

MyidWatchdog.com says something about those F'ers having 2969 domains registered. It's like a con-man confidence scheme minefield out there. But myidwatchdog.com wants you to pay for the list. Meh... At least you get an idea of how pervasive the shit by just one company is from the numbers.

As for the shit they pull, see this RipoffReport post.

Re:Yep

[Vellmont]

I don't think he meant the agencies that report to corps, but rather the variety of websites that sell you access to your own credit report(s) with optional services like emailing you every time there is change to your report.

He may not have, but all 3 of the credit reporting services have an arm that'll tell you what your credit score is, and the items on it. Fair Isaac, the company that came up with the scoring system has a credit reporting service too. IMO you'd be wiser to go to one of these companies than the fly-by-night guys.

Re:Yep

[socz]

Although the 3 cc companies have 800 numbers, i don't know if you can get a hold of someone. I believe it's all automated or recorded. If that is the case, wouldn't it amount to the same?

Waiting for me coupon

[stoolpigeon]

I filled out the form to get a coupon quite a while ago, but haven't had it come in yet. I figure once it arrives, I'll wait until I can walk into a brick and mortar store and pick one up. Ideally one that costs as close as possible to $40.
 
I'll still need an antenna. I wonder if some places will do a bundle deal and allow the coupon to cover both? That would be nice.

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I'll still need an antenna.

Really?

What are you currently using for an antenna? What's wrong with that?

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[Rick17JJ]

I applied for 2 coupons from the dtv2009.gov website in January. If I remember correctly, their website said they would start start sending the coupons out in February. February has come and gone and I am still waiting for my coupons.

I wonder if I should try applying again?

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[SkyDude]

Really? What are you currently using for an antenna? What's wrong with that?

My other antenna is an 18inch dish.........

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[SkyDude]

Got mine this past weekend. Relax, they're in the mail.

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[antdude]

I got mine on the first day of 2008. I got it like a month ago. I assume the place is backlogged to send them out. There is a status page to see where your requests are.

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[stoolpigeon]

I have cable but we are dropping it.

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[Rick17JJ]

I went to the dtv2009.gov website, just now, and clicked on the large graphic that says "where is your coupon." I did not have my original coupon number, so I tried to look it up by the combination of my last name and address. Unfortunately, it could not find my coupon status.

I called their 1-888-388-2009 telephone number to check on the status of my coupon and they could not find it either. So, they had me apply for another coupon. I decided to apply for just one instead of two this time.

I would not be surprised if they still send me the 2 coupons from the original request that I had done online. If so, I will just send the third coupon back.

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[rjstanford]

Which will - assuming you're referring to DirecTV or Dish Network - continue to work and provide you with your local stations (assuming you're in part of the country that they cover, which is most of the population by now) in a format that you can use.

Re:Waiting for me coupon

[SkyDude]

See, my response to the parent was a lame attempt at levity. You know, like those bumper stickers on the back of some old clunker that says "my other car is _____" (fill in the blank).

But your response was informative and maybe some generous mod will recognize it as such.

The coupons are already out?

[Toonol]

I sent off for two coupons months ago, and haven't heard or received anything. I assumed they were just slow getting out. I MUST HAVE BEEN HACKED!!!

Seriously, that ticks me off, because that would have saved me eighty dollars. I really do rely on just over-the-air broadcasting.

Re:The coupons are already out?

[faedle]

You do know that you can go online and check the status of your converter coupon request, right?

It's not like http://dtv2009.gov/ doesn't have a HUGE graphic on the front page saying "Wondering where your coupon is?"

Re:The coupons are already out?

[Toonol]

You do know that you can go online and check the status of your converter coupon request, right?

Honestly, I thought it might be possible, but I also thought it would entail forty-five minutes of navigating through clunky .gov websites. Thanks for the direct link.

Update (This is a real-time comment): My coupon application is not found. I apparently need to reapply. I'll keep you all posted.

Re:The coupons are already out?

[faedle]

Well, you do have to go through the kind-of clunky "are you a human?" intelligence test.

I ordered mine pretty much when the website went online, and got my coupons about three weeks ago.

Get the Zenith DTT900. It's about the best one on the market right now. The only feature it does not have is analog pass-thru, which is likely only required if you live somewhere with translators that aren't going digital (ie: the "boonies"). It's sold at RadioShack stores.

Re:The coupons are already out?

[antdude]

I ordered mine of the first day of 2008. It took a while. I assume you haven't gotten yours because of the backlogged of requests. Be patient.

Re:The coupons are already out?

[johnpaul191]

I had my mom sign up pretty soon after the site went live (accepting requests) and she got her coupons a few weeks ago. I can only guess it's like tax refunds, the delay goes up steeply the longer you wait to send in your request.

Re:The coupons are already out?

[belmolis]

Well, you do have to go through the kind-of clunky "are you a human?" intelligence test.

Some of us have a hard time with those.

Re:The coupons are already out?

[TheSpoom]

And some of us are not actually human. I claim discrimination, pathetic fleshbags!

Re:The coupons are already out?

[pla]

I can only guess it's like tax refunds, the delay goes up steeply the longer you wait to send in your request.

Of course, so do the number and quality of qualifying boxes, and you won't need them until February 2009.

Since analog won't go dark for another 10 months, the ideal time to sign up for coupons will occur as late as possible but before they run out - Or, since this just made the Slashdot front page, yesterday.

Say it ain't so!

[mh1997]

Fraud with government money? Next you'll be telling me congress wastes our tax dollars.

Nobody saw this coming?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[geekoid]

Name one waste.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[faedle]

Sending out $40 coupons for a $50 converter, rather than just telling people to take $40 off their tax liability and submit a receipt sounds like a good starter.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Anonymous Coward]

how's the war doing, with all those private contractors?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.ed.gov/

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Yaa 101]

NEOCONS

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just have to question why the government even needs to provide "coupons" for this transition. If people are having a hard time purchasing the conversion equipment then helping them watch more tv isnt helping anyone.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[geekoid]

See, when you say waste, but what you mean is that you have no clue why this happen and happily jump to some bent conclusion.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[uniquename72]

I've now gotten 3 identical, multipage notices in the mail from the government telling me to expect an economic stimulus check in June.

Wouldn't it be less wasteful just to send me the check?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[bigstrat2003]

Only one? Jeez, you set the bar low.

Wasting my damn taxpayer dollars on providing Americans with TV service. There, done. Do I get a cookie or something?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[justinlee37]

Congress wastes our tax dollars by going to war. That seems like a pretty easy shot, but, it's true. It'd make more sense to invest the money in math & science education here so that we retained more of our tech jobs, and could then hire all of those people we would have killed to work low-paying, labor-intensive jobs in our super mega factory factories that they know nothing about.

When you consider that as an alternative, doesn't paying $90 billion dollars to kill them now seem like a waste?

Of course, most people are wasteful, when you consider their actions in terms of opportunity cost.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[geekoid]

Just stating something doesn't make it so.
How is that a waste?
Why do you ignore the billions of tax dollars these items will provide?

If anything, it's an investment.
Next.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[geekoid]

Would you hold the check until the money was available? Would most people? how man people would loose it and then bitch it's not their fault and the government shouldn't be sending fraudulent checks anyways?

Plus, the government has been inundated with 'where's my money' calls. Sending people letters is a lot cheaper then trying to answer millions of phone calls.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[argent]

War on drugs and tobacco subsidies.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your reference to "money becoming available" somehow limiting government spending is ridiculous. Have you been at the bottom of well rubbing in the lotion for the last 80 years ?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[bigstrat2003]

Tell me... how on God's green fucking earth is TV going to provide BILLIONS of tax dollars?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[faedle]

No, it is a waste.

Instead of just implementing it as a tax credit (which wouldn't really cost much of anything), the US Government's Department of Commerce is spending millions to process applications, create an infrastructure to accept coupons (which are a form of electronic debit card), and to then put the money in retailer's hands.

It would have been cheaper for the US Government to buy a couple of million boxes, delay the cutover until 2010, and give them to the Census Bureau to distribute when they count the Census.

Whether or not the entire idea of giving people a converter box, as opposed to "letting the market sort it out" itself is another story, but one we'll leave for another generation.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[faedle]

Well, how much did the US Government get from the recent auctions?

Guess where that spectrum is coming from? TV UHF Channels 52 through 59.

Just one block, the Class C block, netted the US Treasury $4.74 billion.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Waffle Iron]

Whether or not the entire idea of giving people a converter box, as opposed to "letting the market sort it out" itself is another story

That's a good idea. We could put the onus on the wireless companies who want this analog TV bandwidth. They would have to negotiate with each and every television owner in this nation to create an individualized plan to upgrade or adapt their old TVs. As soon as every last analog TV in the country has been fixed its owner's satisfaction, the telcos could start using their bandwidth.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[bigstrat2003]

Ah, but that isn't because the US government is giving everyone analog converters, it's because they're getting rid of the analog signals. Two separate issues. Getting rid of the analog signals does not necessitate wasting money on people's entertainment.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[faedle]

It was part of the deal. Broadcasters accepted the loss of spectrum in exchange for this converter handout.

This is as much a "free ride" for the broadcast industry as anything, but it actually is putting the US Government way ahead.

Could have it been handled better? Perhaps, but by in large, We The People will have a technically better television system as a result, and the US Treasury will have a lot more money that they didn't have before.

That doesn't sound like a big lose to me.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[complete loony]

And the low income, working poor, that don't have $50 in hand to buy one with? Or don't bother to file tax returns? Lets deprive them of free entertainment shall we?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[freedom_india]

Sheesh. One answer and you left out the biggest answer of all: War in Irack.
Dumbass

Re:Say it ain't so!

[electrictroy]

>>>"Name one waste."

Spending million of dollars in postage/envelopes/paper, so they could send me a letter to tell me I'm getting a $300 rebate. I would have prefered they NOT send me a letter, and instead send me $300.40 ($300 refund plus the unspent postage/envelope money).

Here's another:

Spending millions studying butterflies, while some people are at home, struggling to pay their past-due grocery or electric or heating bills. How about letting these people KEEP their money, that way they can afford their bills? Screw the butterflies. People first.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[electrictroy]

That sounded like sarcasm. ;-)

In the Digital Radio arena, the market is "sorting out" and most americans are deciding they are perfectly happy with the old analog standard (i.e. not upgrading). I suspect if the same principle had been applied, Digital TV would also be soundly ignored by most americans who are perfectly happy with the analog NTSC.

But it wasn't.

Instead the FCC has decided to "turn off" the analog, forcing people to switch to DTV even if they don't want to (raises hand). And therefore I think the FCC has an obligation to fix my soon-to-be "broken" analog set with no picture. The FCC's solution is quite elegant: Sell channels 52-83 to corporations. Pass the money to me in the form of $80 in coupons.

So the corporations end-up funding my "fix" for my broken analog set.

Nice.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[electrictroy]

>>>"Would you hold the check until the money was available?"

The question is ridiculous. The U.S. Treasury has plenty of money coming-in every week (from individual paychecks). The $300 rebate checks would not bounce.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[electrictroy]

>>>"We The People will have a technically better television system"

With analog I get ~23 channels. With digital I get just 8 channels. (And a lot of blue screens of death, because those channels are too weak to receive.) How is getting 1/3rd as many channels a "better" system? I am losing Baltimore and Philadephia sports. I am losing MyNetworkTV. I am losing Telemundo. I am losing PBS and ABC. I am losing the independent "rerun channel" that has my favorite shows like Davinci's Inquest, Cold Squad, Stargate, and Farscape.

How is this in any way a "better" system?!?!?
I call it a worse system.
With fewer choices.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[thisissilly]

And how much you want to bet if the $40 coupons weren't available, the converter box would cost $35 instead of $50?

Re:Say it ain't so!

[argent]

The sheer classical irony of the US government both fighting the drug war and subsidizing dangerous and addictive drugs beats the simple bullet-headedness of Iraq. Plus, tobacco subsidies have staying power.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[freedom_india]

yes... on second thought, what you say is true.
Typical slapdash of me to not giving any thought to what you said earlier.

Re:Say it ain't so!

[Yaa 101]

I see, sorry to annoy you Neocon with mod points, not.

Asshole, I hope you and your clan all die a painful dead on the ropes.

Coupons expire

[w3rdna]

The real issues is the coupons expire after 90 days. So delayed boxes effectively become available fo r the early order of coupons. If they process them ahead of time then they will not expire before delivery... The second part is once used, coupons can not be refunded or transfered to a different retailler. Thus you are locked into where every you processed the coupon.

Re:Coupons expire

[LoverOfJoy]

Yes, and it won't surprise me if 90 days after the last of the coupons are mailed out there is a price drop on converter boxes by a significant amount.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Rolgar]

Broadcast TV is free as a public service, and there are legitimate reasons people might want to have broadcast TV without paying for a service package. In this election year, debates and other government programming should remain available at no cost. This is an important part of a modern democracy, that is maintaining an educated public.

I and my wife only have cable TV because it's free with cable internet. We are contemplating a move out of town, beyond the service area of the cable company. If we do, the only TV service we will take will be broadcast, not satellite.

Frankly, we have too much on our hands to even watch the few things we have recorded on our recorder, but it would still be nice to have some service available for free.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Anonymous Coward]

some hick 50 miles away in rural hicksville.

LMAO

50 miles is the edge of the suburbs.

Sorry, always amused at European conceptions of the size of the US. :)

(Try 200 miles away, unless you REALLY mean the middle of nowhere...)

Sad

[willbry]

This is really sad because there is already so much confusion among the population about the digital television transition. I'll keep tracking the dtv transition progress on my blog (http://williambryson.blogspot.com/) and help visitors with their questions. The questions I receive reflect the mass confusion that exists about this whole process. But scum like this should be nailed to the wall IMHO.

Re:Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

No one cares about your shitty blog.

Please keep spam to yourself.

Re:Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually went to look at his blog just because you called it shitty to see if you were just trolling. I was about to give him the benefit of the doubt until I read this:

In order to view SDTV, EDTV, or HDTV, you'll need a digital television with an HDTV receiver Dude, WTF is a "digital television?" Whilst plasma/LCD/OLED displays are technically digital, CRT-based televisions still use analog scanning to display a picture. All of the above can receive an analog or digital signal provided they have the appropriate inputs and processing capability, and if necessary will convert those signals into the appropriate format for display. If you're referring to TVs already equipped for digital reception, then why do you need a receiver? Also, why on earth would I need a HD receiver to watch SD broadcasts? An SD receiver will do the job just fine for a fraction of the price.

You *almost* know what you're talking about but you're muddying the waters even further with confused half-truths.

Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[synthesizerpatel]

The really insulting thing about the coupon program is the amount of effort and wasted money that went into it. I submitted a request for two coupons to get my parents two ancient (yet apparently inseperable) televisions. When the coupons showed up, they're the same shape, size, and weight as a credit card, INCLUDING a nifty hologram and raised letters and mag stripe. Are you kidding me? A Starbucks card is made out of flimsier material and is entrusted with far more value. They could have just printed out a piece of paper with 'It's a coupon, I swear to god!' and a serial number written on it -- vendor verifies that the serial number hasn't been 'claimed', done.

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[geekoid]

Except some ass hat is going to print 10,000 coupons with someone else serial number. Then you will be crying "Why did they use paper, that's so stupid!"

The amount of money generate from fraud would far outstripped the money the coupon saved.

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[Fastolfe]

It is possible to generate serial numbers of a sufficient length to make the probability of discovering a collision impractical. Plenty of businesses issue one-time-only printed coupons using these types of serial numbers, and they seem to get by OK without massive counterfeiting.

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[edmicman]

Are they as expansive as the US government, or mom n' pop (relatively speaking) establishments?

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[maxume]

It's a $40 coupon. The probably spent less than $1 printing it. What's the problem?

(If $1 is correct, all the coupon has to do is prevent fraud 3% of the time and it is a net win).

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[davolfman]

I vote for RSA of a serial number followed by "This is a real US DTV coupon in ASCII" Then anybody can verify it, and nobody can economically generate their own.

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[Fastolfe]

The most recent example I can think of is Best Buy, so, neither? As part of their rewards program, they send you "$N off your next purchase" with a unique bar code/serial number that is invalidated once you use it.

Xbox Live uses a similar scheme to redeem codes for membership. So long as you have enough bits of data in your serial number, and enough orders of magnitude of bad numbers versus good ones, you're pretty well protected.

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 1: Generate some arbitrarily large number of coupon codes (optionally include an embedded checksum), making sure your potential range is at least the number of coupons to be generated ever, squared. A 20 decimal digit coupon code should be sufficient.
Step 2: Send them out one at a time as people request them.
Step 3: Validate the codes as they come in.

In the process of using a huge potential range of coupons, generating someone else's serial number becomes very difficult, and only really possible if you generate a huge number of coupons. See 'birthday paradox' from wikipedia as to why.

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[wwejason]

These "coupons" are processed the same as credit cards on Visa's network.

https://www.ntiadtv.gov/docs/CouponRedemptionFunctionalOverview.pdf
"Purchases made with this non-branded payment card will be authorized through the same payment network connection through which you process Visa transactions even though the payment will not be a Visa transaction." - "After successful eligibility confirmation during the retailer certification process, the ISO-assigned BIN range for this non-branded payment card will be communicated to each retailer. You will need to confirm that your POS systems and devices are capable of accepting this BIN range and correctly routing authorization request messagesassociated with cards under this BIN to the same acquiring processor used for Visa transactions."

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2b.htm
17. Other commenters, particularly retailers, supported the use of an "electronic coupon card" (ECC) on which the $40 value can be credited towards the purchase of a CECB. Many commenters agreed that use of the ECC was the most efficient way to administer the program as well as the best way to reduce fraud.[ 41 ] CERC stated that an ECC should (a) bear a "use by" date on its surface and should be coded to expire after the time indicated on its surface; (b) carry a unique serialized number (encoded in a magnetic strip and printed in human-readable form on the card) that can be transmitted to a central database immediately upon submission for on-line verification; and (c) provide clear and succinct rules concerning coupon use.[ 42 ] CERC also noted that the use of ECCs would permit more consumer friendly converter exchanges.[ 43 ] It was also noted that the use of ECCs would facilitate real-time transmission of information on redemption rates which is important because transmission delays may limit NTIA's ability to monitor performance or to request additional congressional funding.[ 44 ] There were, however, concerns expressed about the use of ECCs. For example, ORC Macro noted that these cards may not be compatible with electronic scanning devices used by participating retailers, and that the requirement for electronic systems may eliminate small retailers from participating.[ 45 ] NTIA also received conflicting comments on whether ECCs could be encoded to limit use to a specific product.[ 46 ] Retailers suggested that ECCs may require significant up-front costs for software, payment processing and employee training.[ 47 ] 18. The coupons will not carry any "stored value," but the appropriate amount will be identified on the cards and authorized for redemption when matched to the central database to verify each transaction. In light of the comments received, particularly those from retailers, NTIA will provide coupons that are capable of electronically encoding information that is necessary for the program to run efficiently and permit electronic tracking of transactions. NTIA also believes that electronically encoded coupons will reduce opportunities for fraud in the program. NTIA notes that electronic information may be encoded on paper coupons as well as plastic cards.[ 48 ]

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[pla]

Except some ass hat is going to print 10,000 coupons with someone else serial number.

Which can't happen with sturdy credit-card like coupons, many of which will go toward internet purchases, why?

Pepsi and McDonalds and other companies have dealt with this issue for almost a decade. They use "serial numbers" consisting of a hard-cryptographic hash. You have literally less than a one-in-a-billion chance of guessing a valid code (given twelve base-36 digits and 100 million valid codes).

Re:Most expensive coupon design I've ever seen

[electrictroy]

The poster has a pretty good point though. I printed-off 5 coupons from healthychoice.com, and then they told me I had hit my limit. No more than 5. So I used some creative photoshopping, and made about 100 more. The grocery stores accepted these coupons without question. (The coupons were for $4 Steamer Meals... a ridiculously high price IMHO... hence why I used the coupons to bring them down to a reasonable rate.)

I imagine a much-better counterfeiter than myself could quite easily scan, edit, and the print-off tons of $40 paper coupons. By using plastic the government makes it more difficult to clone.

Re:Coupons eh?

[mrsteveman1]

get off my lawn and i'll get a job

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Anonymous Coward]

"In America we think 100 years is a long time, and in Europe they think 100 miles is a long distance."

Re:Coupons eh?

[jflo]

I totally agree that there should be a public broadcasting system in place, however, I don't think that because some people can't afford a convertor box, that fellow tax payers should be penalized over a luxery preference in tv viewing.

Re:Coupons eh?

[schnikies79]

They aren't. The government is using money they got from selling the airwaves in the recent auctions.

[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[quizwedge]

Offtopic, but I can't seem to find out enough about this from my local electronics stores. I have a non-HD TV with no cable, satellite, or rabbit ears. We've opted for DVDs instead. With the switch to HD-TV signals, I registered and received my coupons. I realize that with the converter, I still need to have some kind of antenna. I recently saw the Philips MANT310 at my local Walmart (can't find a link to just the product, so I'll post the Radio Shack link: http://www.radioshack.com/sm-philips-mant310-indoor-amplified-vhf-uhf-fm-tv-antenna--pi-2455308.html). My question is, since this receives HD-TV signals, do I still need the converter box for my non-HD TV? Would there be a benefit to getting the converter box? Thanks.

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[fo0bar]

My question is, since this [antenna] receives HD-TV signals, do I still need the converter box for my non-HD TV? Would there be a benefit to getting the converter box? Thanks.

Yes, you still need the DTV receiver. The DTV receiver is what actually processes OTA signals. The whole "DTV-capable" antenna marketing is largely a sham, like ethernet cables that say they're "broadband ready". Any standard VHF/UHF antenna is usable on your DTV receiver.

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[wc_paladin]

yeah, you will still need the converter box. The antenna just picks up the signal, it is still digital and has to be decoded to analog to work with most TV's. Also, if you need help picking out an antenna, check out antennaweb.org

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[quizwedge]

Thanks so much!

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[song-of-the-pogo]

unless your television has an atsc tuner (which wasn't clear to me from what you posted), you will need a box. as far as i know, most standard-def televisions (at least ones of the age i own(>5 years old)) only have ntsc tuners. i am unable to view ota digital signals on my tv without an atsc tuner which, in my case, is supplied by an elgato eye-tv (run through an old mac mini i have no other use for). i could, of course, be totally wrong.

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[stefanlasiewski]

You should get an antenna and a converter box.

The antenna will receive the Over-the-Air television broadcast, but will not convert the DTV signal for your analog TV. You need a Converter Box to convert the DTV broadcast and output the signal your analog TV.

Also, you need a good VHF/UHF antenna for DTV signals. With Analog TV, a poor signal meant that the picture was snowy, contained echos, or is poor quality but still watchable. With DTV, a poor signal *may* make the broadcast unwatchable (the digital TV will blink in and out). See http://dtvfacts.com/102/do-i-need-a-new-antenna-to-get-digital-tv/ for a good summary.

Remember--- HDTV and DTV are different things. DTV is "Digital Television". "HDTV" is "High-Definition Television". Not all DTV signals are HDTV.

I'm in a similar situation. We watch broadcast TV and DVDs. We don't have cable or satellite. I just picked up a nice 37-inch analog TV (manufactured in 2005) for $100, and now I'm looking into DTV converter boxes.

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[Nethemas the Great]

DTV ready labeling isn't necessarily a sham. That would be something like Microsoft claiming that Vista is new and improved in a comparison with XP. There are a bloody lot of technologically impaired individuals that will be bothering sales people and the like with questions about whether or not this or that antenna, TV, fork, spatula, what have you will work when the analog broadcasts go dark. Sticking a DTV ready label on the box helps the sales people maintain their sanity for just a bit longer. If those companies manage to snag a few bright bulbs with their label such that they cause them to replace their non-DTV ready antenna with a DTV ready one then more power to them. If it weren't for such people the nation's GDP would be slashed in half...

Re:[Offtopic] What is required for an analog TV?

[electrictroy]

>>>"I realize that with the converter, I still need to have some kind of antenna"

You need more than just an antenna. You need a *rooftop* antenna. As I discovered with my experiments, indoor antennas are basically worthless, only receiving 3-4 channels (within 10 mile range). In order to get more channels, I had to buy an external antenna.

DTV is much more difficult to receive than the old analog television (which would display a picture even with lousy reception). DTV expects a near-perfect signal, else you won't get it. Therefore indoor rabbit ears are not good enough.

Other solutions.

[Spazmania]

Classic television occupied two frequency bands: VHF and UHF. There was no need to phase them both out at the same time. The Pols needlessly forced a flag day and they deserve to be criticized for their ignorance.

From someone needing to get the converter...

[sdhoigt]

Sorry, this is a little off topic, but has anyone already received the $40 coupon and purchased a converter?

I'd be curious to hear your impressions of the converter you purchased (incl. price).

Thanks,

SD

Re:From someone needing to get the converter...

[i.of.the.storm]

We got our coupons and got the Insignia (Zenith?) box from Best Buy, picture has been either better or unwatchable depending on the signal. I think we need a better antenna or something. On the upside, we don't have to use these boxes until next year, around when the signals will hopefully be better. Also, there are a lot more digital channels than analog. Many channels have multiple subchannels, which is quite cool. Having a program guide, even if all it shows is the current and next program, is also nice for someone who's never had one. Overall, it's a nice box for $60 and supposedly it's got some nice LG chip inside it, so I'd recommend it. It also has a universal power button for turning on/off your TV, which is a nice plus and worked with our less ancient (1996) TV.

Re:From someone needing to get the converter...

[PPH]

Yes. My coupons took about 2 months to arrive.

I bought an Insignia brand box at Best Buy. About $65, IIRC. It works OK.

Tips! Also matrices of convert boxes to compare.

[antdude]

First, go to TVfool and Antennaweb to find out where all the transmitters are and how far. Then, you need to see what type of antenna to get. Good places to discuss about DTV are at: news://alt.tv.tech.hdtv (newsgroup) and AVS Forum. I am not an expert and still learning, but these places are useful.

I couldn't use my old fashion rabbit ears since they were too weak and they were decent for analog feeds.

For those who can't decide which converter boxes to get with the coupons, then see Wikipedia and here. I still haven't ddecided what to get and I need to get them before May 27th, 2008 (should had waited to get better models). :(

Cliff effect

[BenSchuarmer]

Because of the cliff effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_effect the signal is either good or completely unwatchable.
If you get a lot of static with your current antenna, you will probably need to get a better one.

Re: WAY off

[Anonymous Coward]

Woooo, way off on the knowledge base there. The switch is to DIGITAL tv transmissions. Nobody ever claimed the switch is to strictly HD tv.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Gription]

Here lets give him a picture so he can compare...

This links to a satellite view of the United States:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=38.68551,-100.019531&spn=33.079911,60.117187&z=4
This links to a satellite view of the same scale centered on England:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.508742,0&spn=53.711322,120.234375&t=k&z=3

Notice central Europe, Greenland, Newfoundland, Norway, Sweden, the Middle East, northern Africa, Russia, etc..., all fit in the same sized view.
Hmmm... I've seen more then one visitor from the other side of the pond completely miscalculate the length of time their road trip would take.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Waffle Iron]

I totally agree that there should be a public broadcasting system in place, however, I don't think that because some people can't afford a convertor box, that fellow tax payers should be penalized over a luxery preference in tv viewing.

And I think that if Google and a bunch of telcos pay the government $billions to make bandwith landgrabs that break my perfectly good TV, the least they can do is use some of the proceeds to compensate me for my expenses.

Potential Help?

[Flash0424]

For those interested, the convertmy.tv site is hosted by IQuestHosting. I would imagine that pressure put on the hosting site could cause some speedier results. Their number (freely available on their site) is: 1-877-254-8761. Digging a little deeper (with WHOIS) provides their network operations number - 1-800-844-8649. A little 'social engineering' could get one past their typical customer service line. I have used these numbers in the past to get refunds on products that were purchased but never shipped, purchased and returned but not refunded, etc...

Interestingly enough, their 'Terms of Use' states some info about violating Federal Law, which might be a leverage point:

"Lawful Purpose

IQuest Internet, LLC, reserves the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason at any time. Customers may only use IQuest Internet, LLC, services for lawful purpose. Transmission of any material in violation of any federal, state, or local regulation is strictly prohibited. The includes, but is not limited to, copyrighted material, material legally judged to be threatening or obscene, and material protected by trade secrets. The designation of any materials as described above is left entirely to the discretion of IQuest Internet, LLC, management. Regardless of the place of signing of this agreement, the customer agrees that for purposes of venue, this contract was entered into in Marion County, Indiana, and any dispute will be litigated or arbitrated in Marion County, Indiana."

Issues like these typically target the elderly (a lot like the commercials that are running!!), which doesn't speak well of our morals today!

Hope it helps!!

Flash

Re:Potential Help?

[Hacker-at-Large]

More info:
$ host convertmy.tv
convertmy.tv has address 209.43.118.25
$ host 209.43.118.25
25.118.43.209.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer memsen.com.
$ whois memsen.com
----------------------
Registrant:
Memsen Mobile Digital Corporation
      1525 GREENWOOD DR
      PISCATAWAY, NJ 08854-2040
      US

      Domain Name: MEMSEN.COM
----------------------
      Administrative Contact:
            Memsen Mobile Digital Corporation memsen@hotmail.com
            1525 GREENWOOD DR
            PISCATAWAY, NJ 08854-2040
            US
            702 604 7360 fax: 123 123 1234
----------------------
$ geoiplookup 209.43.118.25
GeoIP Country Edition: US, United States
GeoIP City Edition, Rev 1: US, IN, Indianapolis, 46205, 39.822701, -86.144997, 527, 317
GeoIP ISP Edition: IQuest Internet
GeoIP Organization Edition: Hosting Division, IQuest Internet, LLC
GeoIP City Edition, Rev 0: US, IN, Indianapolis, 46205, 39.822701, -86.144997
GeoIP Netspeed Edition: Corporate
GeoIP Domain Name Edition: russelltechnologiescorp.com
$ whois russelltechnologiescorp.com
----------------------
Registrant:
Russell Technologies Corporation

PO Box 1285
Carmel, Indiana 46082
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: RUSSELLTECHNOLOGIESCORP.COM
Created on: 14-Nov-01
Expires on: 14-Nov-09
Last Updated on: 17-Jan-08

Administrative Contact:
, info@russelltechnologiescorp.com
Russell Technologies Corporation
PO Box 1285
Carmel, Indiana 46082
United States
317-573-9848 Fax -- 123 123 1234
----------------------

FWIW

you'll love HDTV if....

[bball99]

you get good reception... here are few things to keep in mind:

1. you'll [generally[ need a decent UHF antenna... some channels are in the VHF range, but unless you're in one of the oddball U.S. areas, a UHF antenna optimized for reception from 450MHz to 800MHz will do just fine...

2. buy a good antenna, *not* an amplified antenna, overpriced POS antenna from Rat Shack, Target, or Wally World... i'd recommend a DB2 or DB4 design (bow-tie omni w/grid)... you'll find 'em on-line from $25 to $50...

3. keep in mind that the signal is digital and you'll need to point the antenna towards the transmitters... UHF is line-of-sight, so building, towers, trees, walls, etc. can reduce signal... that said, i use a DB2 indoors at 8-foot height and get 20 channels more than 30 miles away from the transmitters... (am using a Hauppauge PVR-950 USB into a 20" AL iMac, but may hook up to my Wega in the near future)...

4. you'll will be *very* impressed with the on-the-air signal compared to the crappy fare touted by your current cable company... nice pictures...

5. you may get better reception at night

6. storms will affect your signal

7. you need good reception or you will lose the picture

8. use a quality RG-6 cable, but don't spring for the over-priced 'gold connector' junk flouted by mindless clerks in stores...

9. outdoor antenna will be better, but you can get surprisingly good reception using an indoor antenna... (amplified rabbit ears [mini-dipoles] aren't worth the money

10. again, antenna direction, placement is key...

hth!

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[bwochinski]

My current setup for HD over the air consists of an old set of rabbit ears leaning against the wall behind my TV.

Of course YMMV, I live < 10mi from the major station towers.

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[w9wi]

1. you'll [generally[ need a decent UHF antenna... some channels are in the VHF range, but unless you're in one of the oddball U.S. areas, a UHF antenna optimized for reception from 450MHz to 800MHz will do just fine...

Note that many stations will change channels when the analog stations go off next February. Even if all your local stations are UHF today, some may not be in a few months. For example, all DTV in Seattle is UHF today. Next February, KCTS (PBS), KSTW (CBS), and KCPQ (Fox) will move to VHF channels 9/11/13.

Luckily, often antennas designed for UHF only will actually work for VHF channels 7-13. Amplified UHF antennas are less likely to work for VHF.

Unfortunately, in a few cities VHF channels 2-6 will be used. Philadelphia (ABC), Albany (NBC), and San Antonio (CW) are probably the largest. A UHF-only antenna is not likely to work here.

Shameless self-promotion: there's a list of post-February assignments on my website at http://www.w9wi.com/dtvch/dtvch.html.

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[Anonymous Coward]

If you live reasonably close to a big city, a $5 dollar store antenna works fine. I get >26dB on all channels.

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[phpmysqldev]

I dont know why people keep thinking this is a move to HDTV, I keep hearing this from everyone and I don't think most people understand the difference between HDTV and Digital TV. The over the air broadcasts are not switching to HDTV. They are switching from analog (a continuous form of data transfer) to digital (a discrete form of data transfer).

Currently all cable and satellite feeds are digital, this conversion is simply going to make over the air broadcasts digital as well. Its simply changing how the message is sent to your antenna, hence the need for a conversion box. And while the digital signal may be better than the analog signal, it is certainly not HD.

HD is a high quality type of digital broadcast available through cable and dish feeds (or Blu-Ray DVDs). It requires an HDTV source as well as an HDTV ready television.

Ive actually heard of people going out and buying HD TV's for the switch...wtf?

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[CopaceticOpus]

Thank you for the tips. I currently use an amplified Rat Shack antenna, and the reception is quite bad. I'm in an apartment building so my options are limited, but at least I'm on the top floor. I think I'll try a DB2 or a DB4 as you suggested. I wish I could try them both out somehow and then decide.

HDTV is fantastic when it does actually pick up.

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Many if not most OTH channels are in HDTV. Depends on where you live. Of course some shows may not have been created in high def.

Re:you'll love HDTV if....

[jimbolauski]

11)Don't expect the guys at radio shack, best buy, or circuit city to know squat about antennas, if they tell you they have HD antennas they are complete morons or thieves trying to get your money. People that know about antennas will have a PHD in front of their name and be members of IEEE.

12)VHF antennas will be large if the longest element is less then a meter it is a poor VHF antenna (VHF channels have a wavelength of 1-5m the shorter the element the less gain I'm over simplifying but good rule of thumb).

13)The higher your antenna the better your reception if you have guy wires for your antenna tower you are high enough

14)Don't use the coax you have had for a long time it may be the wrong type RG-59/U which is crap at shielding use RG-6/U if the cable doesn't run by power cables and the RG-6/UQ if it does.

15)Make sure you ground your antenna your signal will increase and you precious electronics will be protected against surges. Don't use the ground the rest of your house uses your signal will decrease every time you turn the microwave on.

oh, and also...

[bball99]

if you use a cable run longer than 50-75 feet, do use a signal amplifier...

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[mnslinky]

Easy for you to say in the UK. Some of our small states are larger is area than your entire island. It's rather inexpensive to create just a few large, high-watt, transmitters than thousands of them.

Say it ain't so!

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody scamming a government program? No way!

Next thing you are going to tell me is that the sun is going to rise in the EAST tomorrow...sheesh!

A Scam?? Please don't tell me ...

[PPH]

... that I don't need the $800 set of Monster cables they sold me with the $65 box.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Notice central Europe, Greenland, Newfoundland, Norway, Sweden, the Middle East, northern Africa, Russia, etc..., all fit in the same sized view. It isn't quite that simple. Google maps uses mercator projection which distorts the size as a trade-off for depicting longitude lines as parallel instead of converging like they do on a real sphere.

Thus the farther towards the poles, the more the size is exaggerated. Which, in this case makes Europe, the UK and especially greenland, look larger as they are generally more northern than the US. For example, NYC seems to be roughly in the same latitude as northern spain or the south of france.

Re:Coupons eh?

[jaredmauch]

I'd rather they be LARTING the deathstar, er "new" ATT into FTTH to have a chance to keep up with the bandwidth onslaught. We're reading how Verizon, Comcast, etc.. are going ahead and providing faster data services, and even degrading HDTV content, ditching basic-cable analog channels, etc.. all to obtain further space for packets. We're quickly moving into a multi-tier internet access world. Those with fiber (high speed). Those with copper that can get some flavor of DSL, and those that can get 28.8k dial-up. The majority of the people in ATT/SBC/Bellsouth (and even Qwest) land are going to be rapidly seeing their access speeds fall off and lose significance just the way dial users have already lost except for basic web browsing and email. While satellite is available, it's really in the mid-to-last tier of service speeds.

Troll-o-rama?

[ColdWetDog]

Terrorist digital receivers. Dang they're everywhere!

Man oh man oh man - somebody forgot their happy pill today.

Note to [some] mods: If you don't understand it, either run it by Google or just let it slide.

Not as bad as ITVN ... I could use some advise

[piltdownman84]

Not as bad as this Internet television company, ITVN.

ITVN offered (Actually I think they still so do) a little box that you plugged into your tv and ethernet and you got your programming that way. The only good thing about it was that you could get single packages without all the crap. So I got it for a single specialty sport channel at $15/month.

Now all was good until December, when on a big match day (Manchester United v Liverpool) their servers couldn't handle it and many people were unable to watch the match, next thing you know there is rumors about financial problems. Sure enough starting January they start double billing my credit card. If try calling their contact numbers and those registered to the website you find that they have been disconected. If you try to email them you get no reply. So every month I've had to call and get the second charge removed from the credit card company, which is time consuming. Now Setanta; the channel I use to get through them has stopped doing business with them so I don't get any service, but I'm still getting double billed everymonth. The credit card company has told my if I have a contract with them they can not block payment completely, but only remove the double billing. They even said if I reported my card lost, and got a replacement the pre-payments would continue. I have filed a fraudulent vendor report, but its getting me nowhere. I'm not alone, searching on the Internet find just about everyone that had the service is now dealing with this nightmare.

So what the hell should I do? I'm also afraid what this might be doing to my own credit/credit-card account. I'm just waiting for them to lock my card because of all the disputed charges.

Re:Not as bad as ITVN ... I could use some advise

[oldhack]

Cancel that card and use another.

I need a coverter box????

[tekrat]

So, how does this converter box work with the battery-powered portable TV I take to the beach? How does this converter box work with the battery-powered hand-held LCD TV Radio Shack sold me a few years back? How does this converter box work with the Wrist-worn TV that James Bond used in Octopussy? How does the converter box work with the TV built into my old Boom-Box?

How does this converter box work with the battery-powered TV I used during the last blackout to get the latest news and information?

So, here we are, worried about Global Warming, and preparing to fill landfills across the country with our older TV sets that will no longer work with this disasterous change-over to digital broadcasting.

Never mind that in poorer neighborhoods, people don't have the money to hand over for a converter box. These people are BORROWING money to get by BETWEEN PAYCHECKS, and often the TV they own is one that was either obtained second-hand or was salvaged from someone else's trash.

Yes, 280,000 people in the USA are on FOOD STAMPS -- dude, that's 10% of the American population. Does the government know and understand that Milk is so expensive now that people can't afford that? That the rising costs of gas, wheat, milk, corn and other necessities have completely killed the tiny percentage (usually measured in cents, not dollars) of what may be left from your minimum wage income at the end of the week?

Yes, I see riots in the streets. I see cities burning in the night. I see a country in a painful transition to third world status while the elite sit in their gated mansions with private security while the inner urban areas of the heartland turn into a war zone.

Re:I need a coverter box????

[Anonymous Coward]

So, how does this converter box work with the battery-powered portable TV I take to the beach? How does this converter box work with the blah blah blah gripe moan Sadly, I can no longer run my Commodore 64 games on my Core 2 Duo computer either. Backward compatibility hampers forward progress.

How does this converter box work with the battery-powered TV I used during the last blackout to get the latest news and information? Option A: Get a generator. Option B: Wait for an affordable battery-powered TV with a digital tuner to come out. They will come down in price as production ramps up on the required chips.

So, here we are, worried about Global Warming, and preparing to fill landfills across the country with our older TV sets that will no longer work with this disasterous change-over to digital broadcasting. So first you bemoan the converter boxes, and then you turn around and complain that everybody will have to throw out their older TV sets. The converter boxes are there so people don't have to throw out their old TV sets. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.

Never mind that in poorer neighborhoods, people don't have the money to hand over for a converter box... This is why the government is offering coupons to let people get the boxes for almost nothing. Have you paid any attention whatsoever?

Yes, 280,000 people in the USA are on FOOD STAMPS -- dude, that's 10% of the American population. Does the government know and understand that Milk is so expensive now that people can't afford that? So your argument is essentially that people are at the breaking point, and the loss of analog television will be the straw that breaks the camel's back? You know, honestly, it will be interesting to see if you're right... but I find it more likely that these poor people are so desperate for the entertainment that television provides, they will heed the countless warnings being broadcast 24-7 right now and find a way to get a converter box.

Yes, I see riots in the streets. I see cities burning in the night. I see a country in a painful transition to third world status while the elite sit in their gated mansions with private security while the inner urban areas of the heartland turn into a war zone. Give me a fucking break. I am usually one of the first to rail against the inequality between the haves and the have-nots in this country, but hyperbole like yours just makes it sound cartoonish at best and deep into moonbat-territory at worst. The United States is not going to descend into a dichotomy of gold-plated nobles and mud-slinging serfs because analog television is shut down. There may indeed end up being riots and protests as things get worse, but we won't suddenly be living in a recreation of Escape From New York.

Re:I need a coverter box????

[jabberw0k]

There won't be riots in the street. Folks will just stop watching television.

If the broadcasters don't want to send me their channels, I won't watch anymore.

Same deal as -- If Microsoft doesn't want to sell XP anymore, I'll recommend Linux or Macs.

Their problem, not mine.

Re:I need a coverter box????

[The Analog Kid]

Does the government know and understand that Milk is so expensive now that people can't afford that?

Yes, they do. They are the ones who set the price floor for milk and they are the ones who buy the surplus. (and they make it into cheese, and that's the first thing they usually hand out to disaster victims) They also caused corn prices to rise by ethanol subsidies, and indirectly caused wheat to rise because farmers are growing less as it's more profitable to grow corn. (which also caused corn products in Mexico to spike, and they are a lot less able to cope with price increases)

Re:I need a coverter box????

[mrchaotica]

There won't be riots in the street. Folks will just stop watching television.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Oh man, that's the funniest joke I've heard in a long time!

28 Million Food Stamps

[tekrat]

Whoops, correction: 280,000 was the wrong number, but the correct percentage.

It's 28 Million Americans on food stamps!!!

See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/31/us/31foodstamps.html?_r=1

"Driven by a painful mix of layoffs and rising food and fuel prices, the number of Americans receiving food stamps is projected to reach 28 million in the coming year, the highest level since the aid program began in the 1960s. "

free

[slothman32]

Are there any you can get free or it this a way to get low income people to spend 10 or so dollars, read large percentage of their salary, just because the gov't says, "you can do that anymore."

"Newer" replacement??

[sunderland56]

CMTV yesterday announced that they would not be shipping the MMDTVB03 at all -- it would be replaced by the MMDTVB02

What sort of company replaces a product version 3 with a "newer, better" product version 2??

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[rfuilrez]

Those 2 images are not to the same scale. If you look in the lower left cornor the 500mi size is definitely longer for the United States image than the Europe image.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

What about?

Radio?

Internet?

Newspaper?

Library?

If TV is your only source for educational content you may not be as smart as you think.

Re:Coupons eh?

[BarefootClown]

The reason we get the coupons is because the Feds took the spectrum away from us (the public) and sold it at auction. Since they're turning a (tremendous) profit from forcing us to switch, the least they can do is cover some of the expenses of that switch.

Re:Coupons eh?

[greenrom]

Maybe I'm misreading the intent of your post, but it sounds as if you think it's the government's responsibility to ensure you have access to broadcast TV. It's not. Should the government buy you a new TV if yours breaks? Should you be reimbursed for the electricity your TV requires? The answers, of course, are no. Why then should the government pay for your DTV receiver?

I do agree that the government should have a role in maintaining an educated public. I'm just not sure that providing free television equipment is an effective way to educate people. Though there is educational programming on broadcast TV, I tend to think most people would be better educated and informed if they stopped watching TV altogether.

Of all the things the government could spend money on for the betterment of the public, it chose to buy DTV receivers for people. It's not surprising. It's just sad.

Way ahead?

[Quila]

This is as much a "free ride" for the broadcast industry as anything, but it actually is putting the US Government way ahead.

I read a book a several years ago about budget smoke and mirrors in Congress, and it mentioned that Congress already used IIRC 6 billion dollars of the then-planned spectrum auction to balance the budget way back when. 6 billion because that's all they thought the auction would bring in, so that's what they took. Yep, they already spent it, only got lucky and got a little more than planned.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol
You see that bit of land disappearing to the right
That's Russia
It keeps going past the Ural mountians and nearly hits Alaska
It's also nearly twice the size of the US
For some strange reason they probably think that 100 miles and 100 years are both short :)

MOD PARENT UP

[teebob21]

Any US credit card company that will not agree to block unauthorized charges from a specific vendor is a sham. I don't have the specifics in front of me, but IIRC such behavior is in violation of both Mastercard's and Visa's merchant agreements. Policy like this, and a certified letter to the executives of the issuing organization and MC or VISA, will do the trick.

Pay the bill and cancel the card. State in the letter that as of the date written you have paid your obligation and that you are notifying the card processor (MC/VISA). Be specific of the charges that they will not refuse and keep copies. Forward one letter to the Attorney General of your state, and one to the AG of the state where the card issuer's headquarters are located.

Any future credit dings from this company can be handled with a formal dispute with the credit bureau. Send them the copy of the letter to the company, letter to MC/VISA, MC/VISA's response, and the attorney general's response, via certified mail with delivery receipt. They have exactly 30 days to verify the negative marks and notify you of the results. Most likely, with that sort of ammunition, they will be unable to find the negative information as "accurate"...but beware, dealing with the credit bureaus is a crapshoot.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Waffle Iron]

Should the government buy you a new TV if yours breaks?

If the *government* broke my TV by selling the bandwidth for its broadcast protocol to private parties for billions of dollars, you're damned right the government should use some of the proceeds to cover my costs of rectifying the situation.

Re:Portable TV & Blackout

[Technician]

How does this converter box work with the battery-powered TV I used during the last blackout to get the latest news and information?

Do you have a car? Does it have a battery? If so, any inexpensive inverter should be able to power the box.

http://www.xantrex.com/ Pick one. I have the 1KW unit. It runs my computer, lights, fridge and TV. Keep a full spare can of gas handy.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[adri]

Try explaining to people how far away from anything useful Perth, Western Australia is.

The sort that goes

[Chuck Chunder]

3 - Profit
2 - ?????
1 - I can't keep the joke going.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[SlashTon]

> and in Europe they think 100 miles is a long distance.

No we don't, but we do think 160.9 kilometers is a long distance.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Anonymous Coward]

What you speak of is true. I've lived in Western Australia for just over 10 years now and while it is not really a "city" by comparison to the U.S. cities I have lived in, it's size is pretty big, especially if you want to go anywhere useful for a holiday like Albany, Esperance, Margaret River, Geraldton, etc.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Anonymous Coward]

Those aren't even the same scale

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Karem Lore]

Tell you what, if you had to drive 100 miles on the roads we have here, you would think its a long way. All your roads are straight...you put your cruise control and watch the miles drop off...Most places here in the UK cruise control is completely useless as your are forever turning it on and off...and the roads are a POS.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Tim Browse]

Also, notice how the US appears half the size in the second map than it does in the first.

Here's something for you to try:

1. Look at the US in Google Maps.
2. Look at Africa in Google Maps.
3. Get a globe, and compare US to Africa.
4. Fall off your chair.

Similarly, compare, say, the size of the US to the size of Greenland on Google Maps, and then look on a globe to confirm your findings.

Site seems to be violating California law

[Animats]

I took a look through the site, and got to the "Enter Credit Card Number" point without seeing the name and address of the business.

That's a criminal offense if selling into California: Before accepting any payment or processing any debit or credit charge or funds transfer, the vendor shall disclose to the buyer in writing or by electronic means of communication, such as e-mail or an on-screen notice, the vendor's return and refund policy, the legal name under which the business is conducted and, except as provided in paragraph (3), the complete street address from which the business is actually conducted. ... (g) Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

Let's see what we can find out.

WHOIS gives us:
Buzzelli, David
Memsen
3604 SE Powell Valley Road
#267
Gresham, Oregon 97080
United States
(503) 667-3136

That's a start. More info is available if you dig.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[AliasMarlowe]

... of the same scale ... The scales are quite different, as you can see by looking at the scale bars in the lower left of the images. One has z=3 while the other has z=4 in the URL.
In fact, even if you set the same z value in both URLs, the scale bars will differ significantly. This is partly due to the projection used, and the different latitudes the views are centered on.

BTW, the US+Canada have a combined land area of 19 million sq.km or so [depending whether Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. are included]. By contrast, the EU has an area of 4½ million sq.km [includes new members and those bits of France located in the Caribbean/Pacific/etc.]. The total area of Europe is 10 million sq.km [includes Iceland, Faroes, and Russia west of the Urals; excludes Greenland & Turkey].

So, in approximate areas: US = 2*EU; Canada=Europe.

Re:Coupons eh?

[LordVader717]

They didn't break your TV, they stopped an aging service that they were under no obligation to continue. The same as nobody broke your VHS recorder by not offering the tapes anymore.

Re:Coupons eh?

[LordVader717]

And if I were the public, I would be pretty peeved that a large amount of money which could be used for something meaningful, is being thrown away by giving away millions and millions worth of television equipment, which probably only genuinely benefit a small minority anyway.
How many are going to use the coupon "just cause it's free", and is $40 really that much to ask from Television viewers who have enjoyed and will continue to enjoy free programming for years and have spent much more on buying a TV in the first place.
In most countries people have to pay many times that anually for the privelage of being allowed to watch TV in the first place. (sometimes it applies to sole fact of owning a TV, and the argument of "I only use it to watch DVDs" won't work)

Re:Coupons eh?

[rfunches]

But the government doesn't use VHS tapes to disseminate public information (as previously mentioned, Presidential debates et al.) and emergency information, it uses the airwaves of radio and television -- the public schools always say "during inclement weather, visit our website or tune to a radio or TV station for delays and closings information," and weather watches, warnings, and EAS notifications are disseminated primarily through radio and TV. Given that the government is breaking one of those primary vectors of information and profiting from it, it only makes sense for the government to spend some of those profits to ensure that everyone who currently uses it will still have access to it after February 2009.

Re:Coupons eh?

[sigxcpu]

I don't even own a TV.

I used to have a tuner card in one of my computers, but I never had time to use it.
I would average about an hour of TV a week.
So when I upgraded the machine that card got left out.

When I want to see a DVD I use my Linux box.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[mgblst]

True, but it doesn't stop millions of morons driving needlessly. Plus the fact that there are so many roads in the UK, it is almost like there is a direct route to every town you could want. Somebody thought it would be a great idea to cover half the country in ugly roads, full of smelly, noisy cars...yes, that is what I want went I go to the country.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Gription]

Interesting. The UK link loads identical to what I pulled up on google but the North America view is definitely off as it isn't zoomed out an additional click (as you noted). It also comes up miss centered as Alaska is cut off. (Grew up in Alaska so I should never miss that!)

I guess the 'preview' thing could have used a little link checking. Messing up the example kind of reduces the impact...

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[xaxa]

All the replies to the troll missed the real point: how come you can get a DVB-T box in the UK for £10 ($20), which has features like interactive TV and an electronic programme guide (as required by the DVB standard) but these aren't included on the US ATSC boxes costing $50?

Back to Topic

[electrictroy]

I have been following this story closely, because I was interested in buying one of these MaxMedia converter boxes. What's "special" about these boxes, which the others do not provide, is an S-video output which can provide approximately 640x480 resolution on your old analog set. (The other boxes have Composite output which is only 440x480 due to the blur induced by overlaying the color signal on-top of the black-n-white image.)

This box also has a VCR tuner, which automatically changes channels, so your VCR or DVR can record multiple programs. Other boxes don't provide that function (thus obsoleting your old recorder).

So it's a unique box.

And that's why so many people wanted to purchase it. They had no way of knowing the company would send an email, "Thanks for your purchase; we've delayed shipping to June." They thought they were getting the box immediately! Nor did they have any way of knowing the company would violate Federal Law by redeeming coupons, but not delivering boxes. Nor did they know the company would bait-n-switch by saying, "The maxmedia's unavailable, but you can get the lesser substitute with only half the features." Yay.

Bottom Line:

Don't blame the victims. Blame the company which, frankly, acts like some scam artists I've met (delay tactics, bait-n-switch, empty promises). Said company even managed to deceive the U.S. Government's NTIA, who listed Maxmedia as a reputable company.

Re:Back to Topic

[electrictroy]

P.S.

I'm not really happy with DTV.

With analog I get ~23 channels. With digital I get just 8 channels. (And a lot of blue screens of death, because those channels are too weak to receive.) How is getting 1/3rd as many channels a "better" system? I am losing Baltimore and Philadephia sports. I am losing MyNetworkTV. I am losing Telemundo. I am losing PBS and ABC. I am losing the independent "rerun channel" that has my favorite shows like Davinci's Inquest, Cold Squad, Stargate, and Farscape.

How is this in any way a "better" system?!?!?
I call it a worse system.
With fewer choices.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Waffle Iron]

They didn't break your TV, they stopped an aging service that they were under no obligation to continue

In a democratic republic, if enough people think that the government has an obligation regarding the analog TV broadcast under their control, then by definition it has one. As it turns out, they do have an obligation, and they're taking action on it with these coupons.

Re: WAY off

[xantho]

But stores love to imply that the switch is to HDTV in order to sell you a more expensive product. If pressed, they'll usually come clean with the real information, but unless you already have an idea of what's actually happening, they won't just volunteer that information.

Re:Coupons eh?

[j-turkey]

Maybe I'm misreading the intent of your post, but it sounds as if you think it's the government's responsibility to ensure you have access to broadcast TV. It's not. Should the government buy you a new TV if yours breaks? Should you be reimbursed for the electricity your TV requires? The answers, of course, are no. Why then should the government pay for your DTV receiver?

It is (somewhat) the government's responsibility when they legislate the old TV's into obsolescence . Perhaps the GPP is a bit off in the assumption that everyone is entitled to this public resource on the taxpayer dime. However, if the government makes my old equipment obsolete and a cheap fix is available, I don't think that a free digital antennas are out of line.

Is the federal government obligated to provide access? Probably not - my guess is that it was put in place to appease network TV broadcasters and their OTA consumers. I don't have TV/cable, so it doesn't affect me one way or the other

When Tornado Sirens Sound

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one thing about the Digital TV conversion I haven't really heard addressed yet by anyone. My static ridden analog TV still gets at least bad picture and audio during thunderstorms in tornado season. So I can watch Mr Meteorologist on local TV tell me where the tornados are. And I can usually even get a lousy signal in the basement if I feel like I need to bunker up. My experience with the local digital stations is that they go blank rather easily, and forget trying to receive anything below ground level at my house. My weather radio helps somewhat, and I'm one of those freaky HAM radio types, but my neighbors are not, and the local TV coverage is a lot more detailed than NOAA weather radio coverage.

Re:Coupons eh?

[baffled]

Oh, so the airwaves that were sold didn't have any value, and the money gained from the sale doesn't count as a taxpayer asset? This is BS. Where's my coupon to buy a TV or radio, where's my coupon to buy a car?

Re:Coupons eh?

[schnikies79]

Where does buying a tv or radio come into play? What are you talking about?

This is simple. They (the government) took something of perceived value from the consumer and are giving a small portion back. I don't know the exact numbers (and I don't care enough to look), but I'm guessing they are giving back less than 5% of what they made.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Achromatic1978]

Oh noes! Run everyone, run! It's that guy that doesn't own a TV!

Next he'll be telling you how much better is life is now that he's not "chained to the idiot machine", and how he just finished reading some Milton.

Run while you still can!

(With apologies to both The Onion and you, personally, who didn't exhibit those qualities at all, but reminded me of the cliché.)

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Achromatic1978]

As opposed to the US?!? I just moved to the US from Australia and it took a while to process just how much real estate was devoted to highways and freeways in a "small" city (Tacoma, WA), and bigger, Seattle. I don't think the US has any claims at being better... different, but just as bad.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Achromatic1978]

I don't think the US can claim any form of superiority there - I just moved to Washington from Australia, and I had more than my fair share of Americans who assumed that Melbourne to Sydney would be "about two hours" and Melbourne to Perth would be "a long day trip, probably overnight", driving. For reference: Melbourne to Sydney: 548mi. Melbourne to Perth: 2,132mi.

Re:Coupons eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't even own a TV.

I used to have a tuner card in one of my computers, but I never had time to use it.
I would average about an hour of TV a week.
So when I upgraded the machine that card got left out.

When I want to see a DVD I use my Linux box.

This is either a sarcastic joke post, or the stupidest, most pointless & offtopic piece of "look at what an anti-establishment hipster I am" tripe in this thread.

Either way, kudos to you, sir.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Achromatic1978]

What, huh, Africa? What's Africa? Ain't never heard of Africa...

In half seriousness, though, as a recent import to America, "World News" is generally "What Happened in Canada and Mexico Today".

No coupon for me, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather pay full price than accept the government's "help".

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[dave420]

Not all Europeans live and work in just one country. A bunch of us treat Europe as just one country, as it pretty much is. I moved from one country to another without filling in a single piece of paper, or any arrangements before-hand, just as I would if moving in the same country. So a fairer comparison would be the US with the EU.

Unscrupulous

[Anonymous Coward]

"unscrupulous fraud artists"

This is to distinguish them from all those fraud artists with scruples.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful. Due to the map projection used in google maps (mercator? I'm not sure) the higher latitudes are scaled considerably bigger than equatorial ones. That's why Greenland looks almost as big as South America, even though it is actually far smaller.

Because northern Europe is at a higher latitude than the USA it is scaled a little bigger, so the difference in size is sometimes even larger than your comparison would suggest at first glance. Distances are only directly comparable at the same latitude (e.g., northern USA with southern Europe).

Re:Coupons eh?

[baffled]

They took something of perceived value? What is this 'something' you speak of? Transitioning from analog to digital? So what, it's a standard. Since when does the government have to reimburse you for setting/changing a standard?

The government doesn't send me a check when they change the speed limit. But, my car's drivetrain is optimally fuel-efficient at 55mph. Now I have to go 65! An outrage.

Why should taxpayer money pay for this. Taxpayer money didn't pay for all their old analog televisions, why the hell are we paying for upgrades?

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Dogtanian]

Freeview boxes can be had for a tenner ($20) in the UK The £10 Freeview boxes were almost certainly being sold at below cost as a loss-leader. £20 ($40) is more typical for a bottom-end box; which, all things considered, still isn't all that expensive.

Re:"Featureful Terrestrial Digital Receiver"

[Dogtanian]

how come you can get a DVB-T box in the UK for £10 ($20), which has features like interactive TV and an electronic programme guide (as required by the DVB standard) but these aren't included on the US ATSC boxes costing $50? As I said elsewhere (and should have put in this reply in the first place), the £10 boxes are probably being sold at below cost. £20 is a more typical figure for a bottom-of-the-line Freeview (DVB-T) box these days.

Re: WAY off

[stefanlasiewski]

With terms like ATSC, NTSC, DTV, HDTV, SDTV, EDTV, HDTV-Ready, DVI, HDMI, VHF, UHF; companies, salespeople and government workers using confusing terms like "HDTV Antennas", television multicasting (Which is really 'multiplexing'), "Yes, all you need is a converter box! You don't need a new antenna!", "All you need is a UHF antenna", etc. who wouldn't be confused?

Nobody ever claimed the switch is to strictly HD tv.

Go to any store and ask for DTV that isn't HDTV. You probably won't find anything except blank stares. They are pretty uncommon.

Re:Coupons eh?

[schnikies79]

They took a bit of the spectrum that we use and sold it. It's more than just setting a standard. They were no making no money on it, and now they have billions.

Give some of it back. The government doesn't need more money.

Re: Worse System with Fewer Choices

[some guy I know]

I call it a worse system.
With fewer choices.

Somehow, some way, it's Microsoft's fault.