Slashdot Mirror
Bill Gates's Wish Is Homeland Security's Command
theodp writes "PC World reports that DHS has extended the time foreign graduates of US colleges can stay in the country and work to almost two-and-a-half years, an 'emergency' change that drew kudos from Microsoft and other H-1B visa stakeholders. Looks like when Bill Gates says 'Jump,' the government asks 'How high?' Bill Gates's Congressional Testimony, March 12, 2008: 'Extending OPT from 12 to 29 months would help to alleviate the crisis employers are facing due to the current H-1B visa shortage. This only requires action by the Executive Branch, and Congress and this Committee should strongly urge the Department of Homeland Security to take such action immediately.' DHS Press Release, April 4, 2008: 'The US Department of Homeland Security released today an interim final rule extending the period of Optional Practical Training (OPT) from 12 to 29 months for qualified F-1 non-immigrant students.'"
Yep, now they can cut pay throughout the industry citing increased competition for jobs. Why should they pay you a 6 digit number when they can pay someone else a mere 5 digits.
Acute shortage my ass.
Not biased at all.
after four years in the U.S. the graduates would have a better idea about reasonable wages. Unlike H1-B, they'd not take such a wage hit. What's the advantage?
Bill Gates has been testifying for years, yet little has been done to increase H1-B limits. It's hardly as if anyone is acting under his control...
Obligatory Southpark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQVoNWAar_k
never say propaganda doesn't work
those conservative wackos are playing you for fools
or maybe you are just xenophobic
"they" took our jobs
Thanks for the very opinionated analysis on how apparently Bill Gates is now ordering the US government but the fact of the matter is this request was good for both parties, good for science, and good for the industry.
Now get off my lawn!
Is this meant to be an acknowledgement that foreign students aren't such a threat? If so, why this particular time limit?
Is this in spite of a perceived threat from foreign students? If so, why isn't DHS doing its job, which is security?
If this isn't because of security, why is DHS making the call on it?
"The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
Everyone i have worked with is less then useless. They create more work for me...
Useless... send them back.
Or maybe, instead of "Looks like when Bill Gates says 'Jump,' the government asks 'How high?'", it's actually "When Bill Gates identifies a real problem, the government actually considers it."
Yes, they have access to government. No, there is no magic.
If the US government does something that somebody had publicly recommended, that does not mean that the government is controlled by that person.
Microsoft does not use L1 visas, because they don't import cheap outsourced labor like IBM does. They are trying to bring in valuable, qualified college graduates to this country to fill higher-level positions that cannot be filled with US-based engineers because at that level, there truly is a shortage.
But hey, this is Slashdot so we can happily spin this so that it seems Bill Gates is manipulating US immigration policies for his own benefit. That way we get another "Microsoft is teh evil" bullet point for the "advocacy" folks, and Slashdot sells more ads. Everybody wins.
This what Microsoft has done for this country. Their software runs alot of the country, their stock is probably is many people's 401Ks. By the way, Bill Gates sometimes knows WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. Also, this may be good for the country's economy. At least some people are trying to make concrete recommendations about how to improve the economy rather than just complain about it.
-David Tarlow, M.D.
dtarlow@aol.com
Wow, if you read all the articles linked, you'd know that it was not just Bill Gates, but others as well who testified on this subject. Secondly, a lot of companies support this, Google included. Finally, people from both parties support this.
The majority of the people who are on OPT are folks who're in the US to go to graduate school. Rather than send them back, they are trying to extend the amount of time that they can stay in the country. How is this a bad thing?
If anything, the number of native US candidates going to graduate school is much lesser than the number of foreign nationals coming to the US for graduate school. How is trying to retain folks who get advanced degrees a bad thing in any way?
Finally, a lot of people with graduate degrees (i.e. majority of folks on OPT) are by no means cheap - so, the old excuse that they are being exploited etc. does not quite work here.
Enough of the bullshit, already. A lot of folks petitioned about extending the OPT status for international students who go to graduate school in the US, and have to return because of visa policies (the H1B cap was met within a few hours last year). So, the government considered what the companies wanted and agreed to do this.
Invest in America: Buy a congressman.
What's worse is that the 5 digits includes the cents.
American Nerds should rise up and revolt.
Have Fun Storming the Castle.
Jack Abramoff, the Republican gangster, got his start lobbying at the Preston Gates law firm. The "Gates" in the title is William H. Gates Sr, one of the foremost corporate lawyers in America, who helped his son William H. Gates III start Microsoft. Microsoft later was officially declared a monopoly abusing its market dominance, while Democrats controlled the Executive Branch. But when Republicans took control during the remedy phase of the monopoly trials, Microsoft was let off without the remedies that actually stop monopolies. Those Republicans were (and are) part of Abramoff's gang.
--
make install -not war
Why can't I do it from here? It's not for security reasons (I'm easier to investigate while in the US, not whilst abroad) and it's not for economic reasons (surely they'd rather I was working, instead of taking weeks off to go home and wait for a new visa), so why is it?
Not all of them but there does seem to be an extraordinarily large group that are pretty bad.
I think this is because most of them are doing programming just to make a buck. They are kind of like the McDonalds employees of the software world. They were given jobs after watching a video tape(*) and don't really want to be doing software development. They lack skill and any motivation other than money.
* Yes, I know they go through school and supposedly have decent curriculums but that isn't enough to make of for the lack of talent.
Seriously, when?
We're always hearing the employers claim that there's less H1-B Visas than jobs they want filled... how about letting supply and demand of the American workforce take over giving pay raises to nearly all of us IT workers.
I'm actually surprised to see this happen. I honestly thought things would remain pretty static until we saw a new government take over. This is really great news for the US tech industry. Hopefully a sign of more change to come.
If anyone can dig up the link. Bill Gates's full testimony that's referenced was a very interesting view. It's surprising what a wide variety of viewpoints the different members of the committee present.
That's completely unreasonable. I've worked with many excellent Indian programmers. The ones who've been H1B and working here in the US have shown the same range of skill as US-native employees.
This implies it's a factor of the company's hiring processes, not anything to do with their national or educational origin.
Outsource teams have their own common issues, but they have a lot more to do with the distance and management issues than with ethnicity or culture.
I still can't find a job. I'm willing to work for like 50k which is like chump change for what I can do. Oh well, some people are forced to start their own business because no one will hire them. Life could be a lot worse for me so I'm not complaining. It is just strange to put in so much work across all the years of school and not being able to land a job.
God spoke to me.
I heard only 1% of the companies in the US are even in the E-verify program, so this seems like a fluff announcement. But that's what I've heard, if anyone has an actual list or numbers that could be interesting to see.
I think this is because most of them are doing programming just to make a buck. They are kind of like the McDonalds employees of the software world. They were given jobs after watching a video tape(*) and don't really want to be doing software development. They lack skill and any motivation other than money."
I dunno if it is that. After working with a number of Indian programmers, I think many of the complaints against them and skills....are due to culture. It is so different than in the US with the caste system, etc.
I've found in my experience, that many of the ones I've worked with, are quite good if it is rote, repeatable, coding with very clear and concise requirements.
However, the areas I've seen that were lacking, were when the job required invention, finding a new way to do something that might have very vague requirements at best. I can only guess this is how it is taught over there, and with the culture, you don't question authority, but, obey it quietly. I guess that over there, they learn to work based only on what is given them, and not to think as independently as we are over here, to look for a new way to do things, etc.
Of course, this is based only on my observations from work experience.
I think the larger question is...why when we in the US have PLENTY of citizens that are capable of doing these jobs are we still having our politicians listening to corps that want nothing more than to lower the wages these jobs are worth....or ship them overseas. This economy is hurting...and crap like this, driving down wages to citizens (or pulling jobs from them) and giving them to foreigners that are just sending the money home is not helping matters.
Pretty soon, the only jobs left here will be service jobs that involve a name tag and asking if "you want fries with that". Trouble is, if noone can make money, who is gonna be left to buy those fries?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It's about time somebody else acknowledged that Bill Gates is effectively emperor of the USA and has been for years.
And for the rest of you going, "But this benefits other people!" Right, now tell me with a straight face that Torvalds, Stallman, Perens, or any of the rest of us could have gotten the government to snap to attention in the same way. The rest of us can't get pot and gay marriage legalized; we can't even get the guy we elected to be president.
Face, it's the United States of Microsoft. Face it.
The reason that Social Security is forecast to go belly-up is because of the huge difference between the number of expected retirees (due to the baby boom) and the number of people expected to be earning a good wage in their younger years. The only fix for this that won't cost each individual taxpayer a crapload of money is to have more taxpayers.
This is enough of a problem that immigration policy should, first and foremost, be about balancing out the population curve so that the burden per taxpayer involved in fixing Social Security is manageable (hopefully permanently, by injecting enough money so that today's taxpayers are paying for their own retirement, not that of their grandparents). The best way to do this is to expand visas for highly-skilled laborers who will earn a good wage, such as H-1B. Furthermore, it's in our best interest to convince these workers to remain in the country permanently and become citizens, rather than taking their expertise back to their countries of origin.
I'd like to see you get into IIT
I was talking to a girl (not Indian, but foreign, earned a CS PhD in the US) a few months back and that was my impression. She didn't understand the idea of working on a project (like open source) unless their was money involved. She wanted to work in a large company, like an exchangeable part. Are there many Indian/Asian open source (FREE as in not paid) developers?
Then again, maybe she'll have a job when OSS junkies are fired since they'll do it for free.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
That's great news ! Any ease on visa rules is great news. It's a shame the government prevents people from freely working in the US through the DHS.
\u262D = \u5350
Horns are really just a broken halo.
Pot is so widespread that it doesn't need to be legal. Gay marriage is opposed by a huge block of American voters (trust me, I would love to change their minds).
I think we have much worse things to worry about than Bill Gates and his fail software company.
If M$ finds it difficult to fill positions, why don't I hear about it investing in U.S. education?
Seriously, what would you rather have: A highly (they're getting degrees here) skilled worker contributing to the American economy by working here or that same worker going back to their country of origin and using their skills not only to make a foreign company richer but that same foreign nation as well. It's just easier to compete and reap the rewards if skilled people are kept here.
Shh.
As an Indian, I have never, never, found caste being a problem, except when you want to marry a girl - and when a guy wants to bail out of some situation and invokes this card. Your hyperbole about "authority" and "cultural difference" is nothing but rotting xenophobia. That, or you are just pain trolling.
GP was dead on point when it stated that most Indians are taught programming in the companies - they completely lack any interest in over the top performance - they know they are cheap workers, and they know their job is laborious. So much for the motivation.O RLY? So you don't know anything about "over there" and want to make sweeping uninformed statements... I wonder why you are not preferred.I doubt GP had taken India culture as a course, or spent years in India. What you understand from what you see is a product of your mind. Until the Indians have personally told you how they are not taught to innovate(?), it is xenophobia - a complete lack of interest in people who are taking your jobs.
for a bunch of little fags who cry about any amount of security at the nations borders you bitches certainly do an about face when it's your chance to bash gates.
get over it already, it's fucking old.
Immigration is probably the only thing keeping your job here in the US. I wouldn't complain. Think about it from a corporations point of view. You have an international corporation that simply wants the work done and are truly indifferent to where it is done. When deciding where to do the bulk of their programming, the US is not exactly the most inviting place. We have some of the highest corporate taxes in the world, we have the highest wages in the world, and in general there is a very high cost of doing business here.
There are good reasons to do work in the US. If the work is the for the US market, it doesn't hurt to have it done in the US to save time in cleaning it up make it presentable to the consumer and you have cleaner communication lines with the US marketers and business folks.
What the immigration does is make the choice a little easier for corporations to pick the US over India. Sure, immigration does, to some small extent push down US wages. Know what pushes down US wages even more though? When they say "fuck it" and simply have the entire thing done in India for a fraction of the cost.
So, you can either swallow that people from India (and elsewhere) come here for high wages while at the same time knocking your wages down a little, or simply have corporations throw their hands up at the high cost of doing business and simply farm it all out to India.
Take your pick.
Stringent immigration policies NEVER result in great economic booms that nationalist promise. Immigration has never hurt the US. The US has a long time of kicking ass and taking in the economics and academics BECAUSE it has such a liberal immigration policy. Taking in skilled workers from elsewhere is a good thing for the US and keeps jobs here. If anyone has anything to bitch about, it is India. The US is the one stealing away their skilled workers, adding them to our economy, and leaving them high and dry.
if they are foreigners.
For posting this. Honestly, you should be publishing more info about the H1-B scams, and the corresponding illegal immigration (L1-B abuses, and the H1-B holders who don't go home).
It seems like you folks hold back on this stuff, while the U.S. labor market gets flooded with these scams, and drives down wages. That affects your core audience, and it's been glaring that you haven't been covering this more.
As some who has been in the computer industry over twenty years there was never need for the H1 visa program. The tech industry wanted to lower wages and H1 visas gave them people willing to work for less to gain entry into the country. Over the years every time you'd hear about the need for move H1 worker my friends and I could look around and see lots of Americans looking for work that were more than qualified for the jobs, just they want the current going wage. No different than the way the current administration wants open border just for cheap labor. The illegals are taking job American used to do, but corporate America wanted to increase profit margins. Perfect example of putting profits before people.
I remember back in the early 90's the software industry started mumbling they thought programming was a trade not a profession every since then wages have declined and jobs have moved overseas. The only winners are the executives paying themselves more and more.
I must say that this is not such a bad thing at all. Most companies are past the "cheap Indian labor thing" by now. I have never hired a person just because that person was from India or China or Russia. What is the point of getting a cheap employee who is not good? This goes for blacks, whites, greens and browns. I have seen enough American citizens and visa holders who were not qualified to hold their jobs. Now those guys are looking at dice.com. And if the person is good, then welcome aboard!
If you think that U.S. is the best damn country, then you have not traveled enough. Average software engineers and other techies in places like India, Russia, Taiwan or South Africa are able to afford an honest living. I have recently visited my co-workers in South Asia and I found it amazing that guys who were two levels below me were able to buy houses and afford vacations while I am lucky to be able to rent in SF Bay Area. So here is the dilemma: We have these people come to our country and study. After the graduation they have a choice: Compete with Americans for good jobs or leave this country. While the first option sounds bad, it is not that gloomy at all. People who say here and get high paid positions end up spending their money locally and not in some country that most of Americans won't be able to put on the map. These newly employed foreigners buy food, travel, get mortgages and help our economy. If they are qualified to do the work, they why the hell not? The alternative for them is to go back to where they came from and start a company that will compete with U.S. companies. And spend money somewhere else. Given the fact that this country needs capable taxpayers, we need any help we can get.
My only problem is with people who come here and somehow end up getting revolving visas instead of getting a citizenship. These guys never want to become a part of this country. They never want to become Americans and show some appreciation for the country that helped them study. If they are here milking the system and sending 90% of what they earn back home while bragging about how crappy it is in the U.S., they should go back. The same goes for those units who believe that as immigrants they're entitled to some special treatment.
Whatever we do, we really have to focus on individual people and not on groups.
Granted, Microsoft is far from alone when it comes to relying on the Visa Crutch. But it was Bill Gates whose pleas were singled out by DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff as he rationalized the need for 'emergency' action.
I'm an american "worker" and I think my job would probably be one of the first filled under such a policy. I think it would be much better to fire me and fill my job with someone who is willing to work for less (if that's really the optimal thing to do), so that I can learn some new skills and work in an area where my skills are valued more highly.
I would much rather know that my employer values my work that little that I can be replaced that "easily" (I mean no disrespect to the immigrants that would fill the job), than work for years ignorant of the fact that there's a 1000 people out there that could do my job just as well as I can, and the only reason I have the job is because I was born here.
I think there's no question that arbitrarily holding the system out of equilibrium is a bad thing (as much as I dislike agreeing with Mr. Gates), but the real question is why do all these intelligent people want to live and work here? I thought the rest of the world passionately hated the US?
Isn't this a contradiction that this many intelligent people want to immigrate here, while at the same time they hate our policy and government? By saying you want to live and work here aren't you admitting that living and working conditions (which one could argue are a result of our policy and government) are better in our country than they are in whatever country you came from? Again, I mean no disrespect and I'm certainly no fan of the current administration, I am just ignorant of the motivations for wanting to live and work in the US.
The GP's allude to how bad Indian programmers are perceived in the US. I was merely stating my observations from working with them in the business over several years. No, I don't know much about Indian culture, never been there, never had much need to learn it, but, from what little I do know or have read about, that was what I was basing my guess on as to the reasons behind my observations.
Just because you observe something, and it happens to be another race, culture or whatever, doesn't make you racist or xenophobic. I hate to think stating what you have experience with others, even if it is negative is the latest thing in the new 'PC' world that you can no longer state or discuss.
Sorry if what I and others have observed working with Indians, but, I cannot believe that all of us are making it up independantly. There must be some truth to it for these things to be stated so prevalently....sorry, but grow some thicker skin. If it doesn't apply to you, then don't worry about it.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
So somewhere on the BLS webpage you see evidence that "real" wages are rising? 'Cause I don't see it in the real world. Did you adjust those figures for inflation?
In the 50's and 60's American dads put in 40 hours a week in a factory with just a high school diploma and families lived pretty well. Moms stayed home with the kids. Now with college degrees, Moms and Dads put in 80-Plus, and can't even achieve the same living standards they had as children. (Or worse, they are another generation removed, and have no recollection of better times.) The median American wage earner has been losing ground for decades. More immigrant labor (legal and illegal) and "free trade" agreements are the threats used by the have-mores to get the have-nots to produce more and expect less.
Question: The 40-hour work week became a standard in the early 20th century. With all of the improvements in productivity that have come about since then, why are we not now on a standard 32-hour workweek? We should have been there 20 years ago. The answer is in the failure of economics professors to teach students to think critically about supply-side economic theories.
I'm not whining (or "whinging"). I'm pointing out that we are being skillfully played against one another and our lives could be better if we get smart enough to recognize it.
Oh, and by the way here's the proof you asked for:
http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/3060.php
How is this relevant to the topic? You just wanted a place to rattle on about the H1-B debate without context?
Just FYI - Indian programmers on H1B are mostly Bachelor's degree holders *from India*, and this OPT extension will not affect most of them. This is for international students (yeah, all over the world), a majority of whom are at the MS/PhD level of education. Yes, the OPT extension will help the Russian PhD in Mathematics or the Chinese PhD in Computer Science as well! Not all of them qualify for O1 or Green Card or other types of visas, so this is their only way to stay on and contribute to what they thought were among the most welcoming societies, academically speaking.
The ongoing salary at my school for these people in the industry, without *any* work experience, exceeds $120K. You call it "cheap"? Start sending your kids to graduate school then.
So point is, this OPT extension does *not* affect much of those that you have written about.
Slashdot is replete with trolls. These guys just search for the word "H1-B" or "Indian programmer" and start spewing hatred. If you don't get what I mean, just check the "comments" section on *any* major news article on issues even remotely related to H1-B or OPT.
This implies it's a factor of the company's hiring processes, not anything to do with their national or educational origin.
Outsource teams have their own common issues, but they have a lot more to do with the distance and management issues than with ethnicity or culture. I don't get it. You are posting a non ad-hominem and measured response in an Injun's-are-taking-our-jobs thread. Please turn in your slashdot registration card to the receptionist on your way out... Mr. "Geo"... (if that's your real name).
...to study CS or programming in the USA if you're a US citizen. The big business bunch will eventually get their way to remove the caps on H1B visas, there will be millions enter the country that way, and the extreme competition for jobs will result salaries below the "fries with that" crowd. The "lucky" jobholders will live 10 to a house, share a minibus to work, and send the $$$ all back home overseas. Study law. Its harder to invade.
Don't believe these types of posts represent the attitudes of most slashdot readers. I suspect most of us have Indian friends and co-workers we respect professionally. I read posts like "they write inferior code" or "they aren't innovative", think the poster is a jerk, and move on. Unfortunately the few people who agree with the poster feel compelled to reply with "that's true, it's because of their [culture|genetic makeup|political system]". Anyone that's worked in the software industry long enough knows from personal experience it's BS.
Well, when we have high wages for highly technical jobs, we tend to generate and keep the brightest and most innovative people in the industry. We have no more manufacturing jobs here, we'd better keep our tech jobs, or what do we have left? But, really, if we keep bringing in temporary workers here to take over formerly high paying jobs and depress the wages for them, we're doing ourselves a disservice as a country. No US students want to pay the high cost of education (time and money) for a tech job if they can't make a GOOD living at it. So, we create a brain drain of our own here.
"What the immigration does is make the choice a little easier for corporations to pick the US over India. Sure, immigration does, to some small extent push down US wages. Know what pushes down US wages even more though? When they say "fuck it" and simply have the entire thing done in India for a fraction of the cost."
I disagree. We're talking about H1-B temporary workers here. If a non-US citizen is doing the job, it doesn't matter if the work itself is on US soil or not, we don't get to keep the money. If a tech job is in India or in the US, if I (Joe US Citizen) can't do the work, it doesn't matter a fuck to me where it is performed, the wages are lost to me.
"Stringent immigration policies NEVER result in great economic booms that nationalist promise. Immigration has never hurt the US. The US has a long time of kicking ass and taking in the economics and academics BECAUSE it has such a liberal immigration policy. Taking in skilled workers from elsewhere is a good thing for the US and keeps jobs here. If anyone has anything to bitch about, it is India. The US is the one stealing away their skilled workers, adding them to our economy, and leaving them high and dry."
You're talking about something different. I'm not talking about immigration. That implies people, with their talents, coming to the US, to live here and become citizens. When they do that, the job and money stays IN OUR economy. We're talking here about H1-B visa workers...temporary workers that have no intention on staying here and becoming US citizens. They work here, drive US wages down, and send their $$ back home to India, and eventually, move back there. It helps India, and drains the US of money and jobs. If this happens you might as well do the job elsewhere. We aren't getting the job or benefit here anyway.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It could also be due to many people having the same experience with H1-B workers as above. Just because you haven't run into it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I doubt this many people independently made it all up?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
"29 months ought to be enough for anybody."
When I first read the subject, I thought he was having people carrying Linux or Mac notebook computers detained in airports for further questioning ...
Let's see... American's are loud mouths who want nothing more to do than make war with other countries.
As you said...
>Just because you observe something, and it happens to be another race, culture or whatever, doesn't make you racist or xenophobic.
And you said...
> Sorry if what I and others have observed working with [Americans], but, I cannot believe that all of us are making it up independantly. There must be some truth to it for these things to be stated so prevalently....sorry, but grow some thicker skin. If it doesn't apply to you, then don't worry about it.
BTW I live in Switzerland and I have met Americans like this, and thus they must like this, no?
Putting this into a REAL context. I have lived in North America (Canada, and the US) and Europe and did work in India. The reality is that you have idiots everywhere, and you have smart folks everywhere.
The problem with your comments is that they are not PC based, but slander. Many folks confuse slander with PC, but they are two separate things. PC is to use the term person instead of man.
Slander is when you make comments like the following:
"I think many of the complaints against them and skills....are due to culture. It is so different than in the US with the caste system, etc"
You freely admit:
"No, I don't know much about Indian culture, never been there, never had much need to learn it, but, from what little I do know or have read about, that was what I was basing my guess on as to the reasons behind my observations"
In other words you are talking out of your butt, which by legal terms is called SLANDER!
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
I think the larger question is...why when we in the US have PLENTY of citizens
Well we have PLENTY of citizens, but they do not like to do computer programming. Last time I checked, the only people that came here to the USA involuntarily were African Americans. The rest of us are ancestors of some "driving down the wages to citizens and giving them to foreigners that are just sending home is not helping matters..."
This ridiculous, xenophobic crap has polluted the American discource since the Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam bitched about the new British arrivals in what would eventually be renamed New York. Yet, despite these waves of low wage immigrants, the United States has managed to become the riches single nation on the planet earth. I've got 13 aircraft carriers, a man on the moon, a kick ass freeway system and gasoline that even today is cheaper than any of our allies to say that a policy of open ended immigration works and works stunningly well.
My grandmother, as did many grandparents, sent money overseas back to Europe to their families when they had it. Family is an AMERICAN value. Remember?
I too, work with a lot of immigrants in Computer Programming, and for the most part I have found these people, whereever they come from, be it Malaysia, Viet Nam, China, India, Japan, Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, and Switzerland, to be hardworking, decent, law abiding, industrious, imaginative, family oriented, and in short the sort of people that the USA should be proud to have. These people want to work, value family, and want to be Americans. I think that, rather than making these people jump through hoops like dogs, we should be recruiting these people from around the world, agressively, and we should be honored to make them citizens of our country, and not the other way around.
By the way too, my uncle in law did THREE combat tours in Viet Nam, earning a silver star, a couple of purple hearts. He's not a computer programmer, but he got his degree at Khe Sahn. But hey, he's just a stinking Mexican... so now you can take that stereotype about lazy hispanic people and blow that out your ass too, while you were at it.
This is my sig.
I've had problems with H1B workers, but I've also had problems with US workers. I know there are companies that exploit the HB1 system, but I don't believe a person's ethnicity is related to their ability to innovate or write good code. Statements that suggest there is a relationship is what I believe most people disagree with.
You could hire Americans...
it is xenophobia - a complete lack of interest in people who are taking your jobs
How can we even say that the computer industry has reached a point yet where the IT world is now a zero sum game. Do we have Star Trek yet? Have we solved NP-Complete yet? Can everyone talk to everyone securely yet. There is more software to be invented yet, than has been. There is so, so much to do. We have only just begun and there is plenty of room in this field for European, Indian and American programmers both.
This is my sig.
>When they do that, the job and money stays IN OUR economy. We're talking here about H1-B visa workers...temporary workers that have no intention on staying here and becoming US citizens.
I call BS... The reason why there are so many H1-B visas is because America does not let anything else in.
I am quite serious here, as my wife and I were confronted with this situation. If you look at the visas of America there are no "skilled labor" immigrations like there is in Canada or Australia. In fact America is actually one of the few countries that focuses on family based immigration.
Look at your government statistics and you will see that per capita there is very little immigration to America. Per capita America has 25% of the immigration that Australia and Canada have. And of that immigration about 60%+ is family based. In Australia and Canada it is in reverse.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
You have an international corporation that simply wants the work done and are truly indifferent to where it is done... There are good reasons to do work in the US.
Inconsistent much?
If there are good reasons to do work in the US, as you say, then these companies are not indifferent to where the work is done.
Going through the years of effort to manipulate politicians into changing the law is a hell of a lot harder and more time consuming than immediately packing up and moving overseas. I'd say these companies have considerable reasons to stay here, which blows to hell your idea that these companies don't care.
What's the point of being the richest man in the world if you can't buy countries and governments?
The above is not worth reading.
Laws requiring it for access to the US market.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
ah yes...in the musical world the argument used to go that Jews did not have proper musical feeling, but could manage to properly imitate true German artists. Once that argument didn't hold water, then the same criticism was leveled at the Japanese when they started competing with Western musicians in the Western classical tradition. In short, this comment is part of a long racist tradition. congrats.
If this isn't because of security, why is DHS making the call on it?
Because back in Nazi Germany, the SS "made the call" on *EVERYTHING*
Yes, there are plenty, go look around.
:)
On that same note, my dad worked with a number of Indian guys when he was in the field. You know the most notable way to figure out if they're independent thinkers, or just a cog? What do they do OUTSIDE of work? The most notable example I can think of was a big HAM radio guy, doing custom hardware and software applications for data communications via radio. And this was in no way related to his work field, beyond both involving hardware and software
The reason why there are so many H1-B visas is because America does not let anything else in... per capita there is very little immigration to America.
Interesting you use per-capita statistics. When you look at the totals, your argument falls apart. The US allows in more immigrants than the rest of the world combined. That may not be as much per capita as Australia or Canada, but that's still a hell of a lot of people.
I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
In 2002 I attended an H1B protest when Gates came to a university to speak. I had time to join the protest because I was *unemployed* at the time. An MS spokesman had the nerve to come up to me and lecture me, an unemployed IT worker, about the "IT shortage".
This is why the lobbyist influence on DC must be slowed. It is not a democracy when business lobbyists have more say than citizens.
Sure, IT employment is almost decent now, but what about the next recession?
"Did you see HOW those people lived back then?"
Yes. I saw it first hand.
Did you?
"Because, if you worked 32 hours, I would still work 40, so I could get a raise. If you work 40, I'll work 48, because I want my son to have more. This is America, competition matters, and if you want to have more, work more."
And if you work 48, I'll work 56 etc. And someone will have more as a result of it. But I doubt if it will ultimately be either of us. Where in this endless competition to work more do our lives actually improve? It won't until we choose cooperation over competition.
Not to worry ... with the Dollar declining in global value, suddenly those foreign workers aren't so cheap anymore. Cheap Chinese-made consumer goods aren't so cheap anymore either. One happy side effect of the falling Dollar is that the USA is actually on its way to being globally competitive again.
If you want to worry about the American workforce being displaced, worry about it being displaced by illegal immigrants, not H1-B's.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Congratulations, troll. I really thought slashdotters might be a bit more savvy than to argue this completely irrelevant comment.
I'm glad that more foreign workers will be coming to the US.
Personally, had no trouble finding a good paying job coming out of college, so I can't say I see foreign workers "stealing" American programmers jobs. I've worked with many H1-B's and the like, but I've never felt like they were unskilled people here taking my job for less money. Instead, companies tend to use their *very* limited supply of H1-B's to poach the top talent from the foreign workforce, and it has generally been a joy to work with these people.
People have this knee jerk reaction that "them foreigners is taking our jobs." However, this is stupid when you are talking about high tech work.
First of all, this isn't the steel industry or the construction industry. There aren't a finite number of jobs to go around in high tech. What we see is that in practice, when there are more workers than there are secure jobs in big companies, people create their own startups in new markets that the big companies are too conservative to explore, thus creating more jobs and opening up more markets.
For all practical purposes, there are infinite jobs in the high tech industry, because it has this property of increasing the industry in size in response to excess talent.
The other reason it makes no sense to criticize allowing more foreign workers into the country is that this is part of a larger highly successful strategy that the US has always carried out where we brain drain other countries in order to keep them from competing from us technologically.
It isn't that there aren't any smart people India who couldn't start their own software company. It's that all of those guys get hired by *American* companies, and end up contributing to the *American* software industry instead of the native Indian one.
Bringing the top foreign talent here, means that we have the first pick at top people that the entire *world* has to offer working for American companies, whereas everyone else has to settle for leftovers.
If anything, the criticism that I level against the H1-B program and other temporary work pograms, is that they are temporary. We should be recruiting top foreign workers for *immigration*. Highly educated people are a *boon* to our national economy, not a drag.
Remember, that the national economy is the big picture that the government always has to keep in sight. A rising tide raises all boats, and we can't sacrifice the common welfare because of completely unsubstantiated fears that American born programmers can't get jobs.
Nothing short of a miracle can improve Windows. Having more, inexperienced minimum wage programmers ain't going to help.
The bottom line is that programmers don't *want* to work at Microsoft. They have 10,000 open positions at any given time. Ten thousand! It says something about a company when programmers would choose to be unemployed rather than work there and the only way they can anybody at all is through indentured slave visas.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Oh grow up. Everyone is all Mr. "Let's celebrate cultural differences" until someone makes a point to say that one cultural system has some draw backs, then everyone is up in arms.
Don't buy it? Disprove it. But grow some thicker skin already.
You've never found caste to be a problem? I guess you're not a Dalit then.
Stop pretending problems in Indian society don't exist just because you have never personally experienced them.
Isn't that how the whole America was formed?
No, no! I am not talking about ethnically British people. I am talking about vast amount of immigration of Jews, Germans, East-Europeans - something that has been continuously happening at least after WW2.
The reality is that immigration has never been a problem to US until now, when the economy is drowning. Of course we need to find an scapegoat.
I believe that you put your finger on one of the problems with H1B. The individuals you met, have they been working in the US -- or have they been working from India for US companies? If you work in US on a sponsored H1B, you are really not supposed to do anything else than you are been told, if your boss -- or people you are working with -- has a bad day, you're out of here. BG wants H1B, What really is needed is to get people in for more "artistic" visas.
Some other people are saying I should grow thicker skin :). I agree.
To you, I will just say, nice straw man.
Not a fact. You're spouting self-serving carcitured version of economic theory that isn't even applicable to analyzing a national labour market. Skilled immigration does not make wages fall.
For almost 70+ years, orthodox MACROeconomics suggests that wages are sticky downwards -- i.e. they don't tend to fall based on an increase of supply, and besides, if wages fall, aggregate demand falls, hurting everyone.
Anecdotally:
- I'll note that I'm a TN-1 worker, not H1-B, though I can't apply for a green card without H1-B; it's a lottery every year.
- Most H1-B's I've known from Canada and India make at least six figures in the SF Bay Area 10 years ago (and as much or more today).
- The USCIS is notoriously thorough in making sure that temporary work immigrants are skilled (i.e. in the bureaucracy's eyes, verifiably credentialed). You have to fit in their conformed boxes, or you'll have a hell of a time working in the U.S. legally.
-Stu
Oh yeah, Switzerland has tough immigration rules and it's such a backwards country of poor people. Fuck you for being an idiot.
Although one benefit to employers is holding down wages of the US-resident IT worforce, I've come to believe that other motivations are stronger. I think one big one is that IT departments are often run by control freaks, and the near-indentured servitude of H1-B holders allows a degree of exploitation that would not be possible with employees who are more able to change employers. It also means that intelligent programmers and engineers who are here on H1-B's end up having to do stupid things because they're not empowered enough to push back when the boss has a brainfart. The consequences of dismissal or resignation are just too great: there's a huge difference between going to work for the competition three blocks down the road versus being shipped home to Chennai on short notice. In my experience this disempowerment is a contributing factor to a number of failed IT projects I've seen. And I say this as a beneficiary of those failures: I make my living cleaning up some of those messes.
My view is that, if temporary visas are issued at all, they should not be locked to a specific employer. That would eliminate many of the market distortions that result from the present arrangement, which rewards abusive employers at the expense of H1-B holders as well as US-based IT people. It would be better yet if there were no temporary visa program at all, and immigration of skilled IT workers were encouraged. After all, if the jobs aren't here, they'll go back home anyway, or will do like American aerospace workers did after the big post-Vietnam-war layoffs and start new businesses. Highly-skilled, entrepreneurial people who leave their homelands to pursue opportunities are unlikely to become a liability to their host country. And, just like the earlier immigration of Germans, Italians, Irish, many of those immigrants end up going back home anyway. It's a fallacy that they all end up staying here.
And the only thing that's keeping my job here in the US is not immigration, it's the fact that I've got skills that someone is willing to pay for, and I'm in a firm that knows how to market those skills. I've worked with, and learned from, a lot of H1-B people. And also from a lot of American citizens. If you're not able to keep learning and finding new opportunities, you're screwed regardless of the level of immigration in your business.
Incidentally, the US has not always had a "liberal immigration policy." Know much about how Chinese immigration was handled in California in the 19th and early 20th centuries? And what about immigration policies regarding skilled or highly educated Mexicans? Oh, never mind, there was no soch policy. They weren't down with the brown in those days. I think a more correct set of adjectives would be "unevenly enforced and racist."
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
The chiefs of Indian tribes should issue the US visas. Not sons of immigrants.
You DO know that Linus Torvalds is an immigrant (i.e. one of those people who you think is stealing your job)?
Google, transistor, telephone, AC motor/generator, GPS, nuclear reactor, nuclear bomb, rocket engine, space program, radio transmitter... all invented by immigrants.
So yeah, Bill Gates is the man, and having him as president would be a great idea (though he's more liberal than a tapeworm).
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
So you've never found caste a problem, except in two rather major cases?
How interesting...
None of this is going to push down US wages below the bizzare situations like cafe workers surviving from the charity of strangers (the "tip" system) and the construction of an illegal underclass that has to accept very low wages or get exposed and deported.
If I wanted to live like it were 1955, I could live a lot more cheaply than I do. There were fewer than half as many cars per family in 1955; the average house and apartment was much half the size; few people had air conditioning; nobody had computers or cable television; almost nobody could fly anywhere; very few people had clothes dryers; the microwave oven didn't exist; etc.; etc.
The reason productivity goes up without the work week therefore going down is that, instead of working less to buy the same total amount of stuff, we're buying a lot more stuff than we were 50 years ago. If you want to go from a 1955 house (average size: 1100 sq ft for a 4-person family) to a 2008 house (average size: 2350 sq ft for a 4-person family), plus you now want to air-condition it, supply it with cable television and internet access, and who knows what else, you're going to have to get the money to do that from somewhere.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
If you had a MS in EE from a top-10 engineering school, you could have your pick of $70k+ jobs. Industry is wary of PhDs in general, because they figure that even if you agree to take a job where you do "real" work, your only interest is research and you'll jump ship as soon as you can.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I personally don't see how the corporations expect anyone in the US to buy their goods/services once they have run all the good paying jobs out of the country. Are we all supposed to become Burger King employees? Do they expect us all to become lawyers and pass around lawsuit money to keep us afloat? Hell, the last year of college even most of the teaching positions were being given to Indians, which when you add a thick accent to an already hard to understand subject makes for a REAL fun classroom experience. And I have noticed the hospitals here are increasingly hiring foreign doctors, my guess is for cost saving as in IT. So what does that leave an American to do?
Manufacturing is gone, IT is being flooded, There are more lawyers in school than are currently in practice, and the doctors are being replaced by foreigners. So what DOES that leave us here in the US? CEO? But that is my 02c from here in small town America, where our industrial park is nothing but a bunch of empty decaying buildings, YMMV and for the sake of you and yours I sincerely hope it does.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Being Indian, American, Russian, whatever, does not make someone a better or a worse coder, designer, architect, whatever. What makes someone better is their ability to solve a task.
Ability is all that matters, average performance, or perceived performance, based on race, is a poor proxy. Like many kdawson stories, this is Flamebait and tagged as such.
Oh.
Have you ever met the government? It does what ever big moeny says!!!
I totally agree... I was just reading an article today about NAFTA that said "Union groups claim 1 million jobs lost in US since passage of NAFTA" and went on to say Mexican unions say they have lost 2.5 million jobs. Liberalization of Mexico's banking system reduced the amount of money loaned to Mexican small businesses from 10% to 0.8%. Clearly the only ones benefiting are big business and the politicians they support. I think the only way we can stop it is clean money campaigns. The presidential candidates are already spending more money than the budget of small developing nations. Even if our unemployment is only 5%, it doesn't count people not on unemployment, people whose benefits have expired, and those underemployed. I love tax rebate checks as much as the next guy, but shouldn't we be investing in our infrastructure? Bringing our D- rated infrastructure up to speed and constructing oil consumption-reducing high speed rail will turn around the job losses and auto industry collapse. Thoughts?
Actually, if I'm not mistaken --- and I'm not an American --- it was also a problem six or seven years ago, during the dot bomb crash
Look out!
If you want to complain about education, then make it impossible to deny any citizen admission to a first class university. Nor should attempt to weed them out as a end-run.
It's a shame that nobody has been able to use the Patriot Act on Grigsby and Cohen (and others like them who gut our nation). It'd be nice to see them frogmarched and sent to Guantanamo asking them why they haven't done so. You wouldnt even need torture.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
As for the folks passing through Ellis Island, they had to pass strict checks to ensure they were fit to be allowed entry. Family is an 'American' value. Remember? Justification for helping your own citizens first. Especially if your family is all over the nation. These people want to work, value family, and want to be Americans. But if you want to do so illegally, I believe this quote applies:"Illegal is illegal no matter where they come from." -Michelle Malkin.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Other people who support increasing the H1B-Visa program include, for instance, economist Alan Greenspan.
Now, I personally haven't studied the issue enough to know what all the considerations are. But if somebody like Greenspan thinks it's a good idea, I think there's a very real possibility there might be some motivation behind doing it other than just making Microsoft happy. I believe Greenspan said something about enabling the US to better compete in the global economy. Not that Greenspan is right about everything, mind you. He also thinks our schools need to teach less advanced math and more long division because more advanced math is "vacuous" without arithmetic as a foundation -- which is clearly wrong, an idea you could only get if you were yourself never taught any advanced math in school. (Greenspan wouldn't have been, based on when he grew up; that's not his fault, but it is reality nonetheless.) Still, math and education aren't his specialty; economics _is_ his specialty, so maybe he has a rather better idea what he's talking about when he talks about the H1B program.
Again, I haven't studied the issues surrounding H1B Visa program in any detail myself, so I won't make a claim one way or another about whether it's beneficial to ramp up the program. What I will say is that it's extremely stupid to dismiss it as just a measure to keep Microsoft happy, when it's also supported by, frankly, the leading economist in the world.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Probably because the distinction has little meaning other than for legal purposes. I'd guess that in common use the distinction will have disappeared within decades.
Trying to link this specifically to Bill Gates is a lame attempt to get Microsoft haters to come over to the side of H1B foes. This isn't a Microsoft problem; pretty much all large technology companies have problems with not being able to hire people on H1Bs. And, although there are a lot of Java and Perl code monkeys in the US, they just aren't qualified to do these jobs.
You can try immigrating abroad. Americans that come to Russia (and work for western companies) earn pretty good money... not to mention that they can allow themselves a better lifestyle.
Coding etudes
You keep talking about a 'rural state' and 'small town America' and that makes me think that you're only looking for jobs in one place. But if I were in the US I'd find a job and move to where it was. In fact why stay in the US? I've worked in half a dozen countries actually and I can thoroughly recommend working abroad. Obviously if your catchment area for jobs is the whole world you have a much better chance of getting a good one.
Plus it opens things up socially too. If I went to bar with my friends/colleagues in the UK I'd spend all night talking just to them. If go to a bar in Asia or Europe I pretty much have to make an effort to talk to people. If you're just another engineer in your native country, women you meet in bars are not going to be too interested. But if you're obviously foreign they most certainly are.
Hell I'd never go back to the UK, even though I could probably get a very good job there now.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
I will NOT come work in the USA even if you pay me a million $.
Period.
What's funny about Switzerland is that back when the EU was getting started everyone thought that any country that didn't join would be isolated by trade and immigration barriers.
But actually Switzerland managed to negotiate a deal with the EU where Swiss citizens can work in the EU without a work permit. The reverse is not the case though. And they managed to opt into the bits of the EU's trade rules they thought were in their interest.
So in a very real sense Switzerand is proof that you don't need to liberalise immigration or allow dubious multinational organisations to dicate policy to be an economic success.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Outsource goes to the lowest bidder. Wether here or anywhere else: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
All I am saying is that if you are working as a H1B visa worker in USA, there is a high chance that your caste wasn't stopping you from doing it.
Software engineers can afford an honest living in South Asia? That's news to me. I'm living in Hong Kong and software engineers are treated like shit here. CS or CE graduates here are typically looking at a HK$11,000/month (that is only about US$17,000/year) or lower when they're finding jobs, not to mention the horrible overtime and midnight support calls. And that number is already hugely improved compared to a few years ago when CS grads were looking at HK$8k/month or lower. Also, it is widely accepted that software engineering have no prospect here - I've seen lots of skillful programmers with 5+ years of experience here still cannot make HK$20k per month.
Compare these numbers with business graduates here. A smart business graduate in Hong Kong can easily get HK$50k+/month in an investment bank as the first job, and that's not counting the million+ bonus they get after one year. How about the mediocre business graduates? Sure they're gonna get the same HK$11k/month job, but they have far better prospects then any software engineer - it's almost impossible for a business graduate to be unable to make HK$20k/month after working for 5 years.
If Bill Gates and other Tech Companies *PAID* American programmers what they were worth, they wouldn't need to hand out Visas. There's no shortage: many are skilled from training during the tech bubble, but he'd rather import foreign workers who are tied to Microsoft or they lose their Visa, and of course he can pay them less.
This has been going on for years, and it's not unique to MS at all. Shame on you, Microsoft. Shame on you, Congress.
The Department of Homeland Security should be investigating Bill Gates, not doing his bidding.
Mod Parent Up!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I've worked with more than 20 H1B people who are supposedly necessary because there aren't any citizens to fill the jobs. Of the 20, 2 were worth something. The other 18 may as well have been fungus on the bottom of a coffee cup. (I'm talking about skills, not them as people. They were quite nice people.) The H1B thing is nothing but a scam perpetrated on the American people!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I've always wondered why it's considered good to ask "how high" if someone tells you to jump. Wouldn't the sign of a dedicated servant or slave be simply to jump? Furthermore, isn't it supposed to imply jumping off of a cliff? It's a stupid cliche anyway I suppose.
Xenophobia implies fear. Nothing to fear from what I've seen. We can easily out-compete them.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
Oh, and by full of crap, I literally mean you ingest it daily. At every meal in fact. I have it on good authority that when you open your mouth, shit drizzles out of your mouth. I also hear that you like to have sex with chickens and young boys. So, will you ever stop having sex with young boys? Will you?
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
Wow, that engendered one of the most off topic series of comments ever seen on /., which has seen more than its share. It's very interesting how the Indian programmers bear the brunt of the blame instead of the American managers and government where it belongs. Most of the readers don't even recognize this is not a story about Indian labor abuse, it's a story about Fascism in the USA.
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
If I had mod points, I'd mod you up. Ever read George Orwell's "Animal Farm". The pig in power manipulated history to be what he needed it to be. The less intelligent animals began to question their own recollection of events. In America today, it's not only that one generation questions the history that it lived through, but subsequent generations have had almost no exposure to it at all. It is relegated to the footnote section of historical knowledge. The 1886 Haymarket riot is an obscure event that very few Americans know any thing about. How poignant that a non-American brought it to our attention here.
In China, if you Google Tiananmen Square, you won't get information on the 1989 riots because it's censored. In the U.S. you'd get complete access to the information, but it is marginalized in importance by the people who tell us what we should think about. I wouldn't trade places with the Chinese, but in many ways the corporate American propaganda system is even more insidious because it is disguised as freedom of speech.
The problem in the tech industry now is people don't know how to find a job, and because of their lack of knowledge they look for someone else to blame. The truth is, if you are a reasonably good programmer (ie, you know how to get things done, and you know how to figure stuff out), then you will find companies all over willing to take you. Look around, is there any successful software company that ISN'T hiring right now? The answer is no.
Qxe4
This is a fantastic thing. It should be extended further!
Right now the United States says to the people of the world: come and study in our top-notch universities, learn how to do incredible and innovative things, then GET THE FUCK OUT.
If we allow those people to stay, then the US essentially gets more than it's fair share of smart, hardworking, educated people. And those are the exact sort of people who are useful when creating new businesses, new markets, etc.
I want more immigration. I want a program that says that if you have an MS from a reasonably good school, you're automatically in. Hell, if you have a BS from a reasonably good school we should probably make it pretty easy for you.
The only thing I don't like about H1B visas is the lack of labor mobility that's associated with them (some of which is being addressed half-heartedly, but it's still an enormous problem.)
Citizenship should be earned, not handed out willy-nilly.
That's funny. I was born in the U.S., and they just gave me a citizenship for being born. Boy did I have to work hard at that! You don't even have to grow up in the U.S., just being born here is good enough. If that's not willy-nilly, what is?
When people born here have to work as hard for their citizenship as your fiance did, then the system might be considered fair. As it is, I don't see the unfairness in giving rights and privileges to foreign-born individuals who didn't earn it, but rather, I see it as unfair that your fiance (and many others) had to work hard for what IS given out willy-nilly, on the basis of birth, like some aristocratic title. So, yes, it is unfair that others are getting for free what your fiance had to work for, but perhaps you should look first to those never had to do anything at all.
The U.S. never quite gave out citizenships to all comers, but it was once much freer in allowing immigration. It should be noted that that period of freer immigration was also when we rose from being a third-rate backwoods nation to the most powerful nation on earth.
well first off a "comfortable" wage is relative and exactly what I'm talking about. The "comfortable" wage of an auto worker is somewhere around $75 an hour. They maintain that price through a labor monopoly, as such, I can't get that job, and American cars suck. A "comfortable" wage doesn't reflect the actual value of labor, which is determined by many things, but what the monopolists feel is "comfortable". Trying to limit immigration to maintain a "comfortable" wage to me is no differnt then any other monopolistic theft. Basically I think your right, yes it will lower wages, which does suck for you, but supply is relative to demand which means that demand would skyrocket eventually forming an equilibrium around what the labors worth, This all has huge benefits to the consumer, and more visibly, the big bosses, which historically have been greater then the loss to the few individuals, hence progress. Also in your favor, programing does require a greater investment in human capitol then fry cooking so the wages would never reach that low because then programmers would just take the easier fry cook job, and people would now immigrate for fry cook jobs. of course this doesn't take into account outsourcing or costs of training and living in foreign country's, but the arguments are similar. I recommend you read up on Absolute and comparative advantage.
With the right knowledge that something better that could be manufactured, you'd revolt.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Capitalism means , including for YOUR job. After removing the vitriol:
Explain the existence of citizen hostile firms such as Grigsby and Cohen who do all they can to prevent a citizen from being hired. What is of note, is that those citizens were qualified in the first place.
For those who think citizens are just "entitled brats", they're wrong. You're usually the ones wanting to bend and break the law.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
If you think you're allowed to walk all over the citizenship of the United States of America as a business, you are wrong. The citizens are qualified, there are plenty of places within this country to start first.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
In other words you are talking out of your butt, which by legal terms is called SLANDER!
You learn something new on slashdot every day. Who'd have thought I was guilty of so much slander!!!
Now if you'll excuse me I need to go to the bathroom and take a slander.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
If only somebody would produce some reliable collaboration software and some reliable conferencing software, Billionaire corporatists could benefit from global wage competition without any need for immigration. Based on the stated need for immigrants, their own software isn't good enough for production use.
All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
"a complete lack of interest in people who are taking your jobs."
Should Read:
a complete lack of interest in people who are being given your jobs.
There, I fixed that for ya.
An "Immigrant" is different than an "Emigrant".
That said do you think that the Industrial Revolution would have ever happened if not for the substantial amount of Irish, Jewish, Italian, and Chinese "Emigrants". I think not. At least these Corporations are not sending the jobs oversees. Thus keeping OUR money in OUR pockets.
I am an IT Network Admin looking for a new job and I am willing to say that if I lose a job interview because someone, H1-B or not, is more qualified, I would not be the slightest bit upset. I wouldn't want a job were I know I am not qualified to fill the position. And yes this has happened to me.
Actually the measure is nothing more than a big fluff and it takes more than it gives to the F-1 students.
One of the requirements of the hailed extension is that the company that hires you is enrolled in E-Verify. At the first look, this may seem as a harmless requirement, however it is not so. Once a company enrolls in E-Verify, it has to use it to check the employment eligibility for _ALL_ new employees. The problem is that E-Verify has a failure rate of approx 10% for US citizens (USCIS 's own figures, so I expect that the reality is even worse) and much bigger for non-citizens. Actually from conversations with both my and my fiancee's employers (both of us are PhD students from Stanford and we have offers in Fortune 500 companies in our fields), they have absolutely no intention to join the system in the near-future for the above-mentioned reasons, even if this would mean losing 50+ new hires. Somehow, I think that they are not the only ones with this position (hopefully I am mistaken on this).
The only _real_ positive thing that this ruling brings on the table is the right to work on OPT while you have a valid H1-B petition. Before it used to be the case that, even if USCIS approved you petition (typically this happened in May), unless you still had OPT to cover April-October, you had to leave the country and then come back on the 1st of October, when the H1-B started.
The negative of the ruling (again, not mentioned at all by the press), is that if you are unemployed while on OPT for more than 90 days, you automatically become an illegal, while before one had no restriction whatsoever on his/hers 12 months of OPT.
and kdawson ir particular. please die in a fire, thanks.
Deus est fatalis
Maybe because you have your head too far up your ass?
Both Bill/Melinda Gates foundation and Microsoft proper invest rather heavily into some 1000 American high schools. Not just computers/software either, but actually paying for afterschool programs, salaries for better qualified math and science teachers, extracurricular science-related activities, summer camps, career and job fairs, science labs, and so on. That's not counting the many thousands of public libraries with computers and internet paid for by Microsoft and BMGFl, or the many minority scholarships for STEM students. Perhaps you don't hear about any of that because you are an ignorant stubborn bigot.
What's good for Microsoft, and Wal-Mart (actually business in general) is good for America. If it was cost effective to use local talent they would. Either take a pay cut, or move on to something else that can't be outsourced yet. It really is quite simple.
Foreign students just hit the jackpot, but American students are going to get the shaft, and here is why: A new op-ed about the OPT extension explains why Chertoff and the DHS broke their own rules and violated the Constitution: The Search for Internships Just Got Tougher http://www.capsweb.org/content.php?id=327&menu_id=8