Counterfeit DFI Motherboards Surface In Indonesia

crazyeyes writes "Those crazy counterfeiters have done it again. First they made counterfeit Intel boxed processors, now they are counterfeiting DFI motherboards! Quoting: 'The detail to the packaging, documentation and the motherboard printing really makes you wonder if the people responsible for this have only limited their activities to DFI motherboards. It's quite possible that there are fake ASUS or Gigabyte motherboards in the market as well.'" Update: 04/15 12:59 GMT by Z : As noted in the comments, the articles offer no speculation as to the origins of the counterfeits. Updated to clarify that.

Comments

Prejudice?

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

The crazy Chinese have done it again

Neither article presents proof (or even speculation) as to the origins of the fakes.

Just how counterfeit are they?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

In the small island of Saipan in the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas Islands (where some people might be surfing from this at this moment), they have slave labor factories for designer apparel makers like Ralph Lauren, Liz Claiborne, Tommy Hilfiger, and J.Crew. The price of the merchandise is pretty steep compared to what you can get at Target, but some people really like to spend a little extra to look good in the latest duds from these designers.

On Saipan, though, you can get knock-off Ralph Lauren, Liz Claiborne, Tommy Hilfiger, and J.Crew clothes for really cheap. Almost cheaper than the price of materials. These knock-offs are so good that even an expert wouldn't be able to tell a real one from a fake one.

The reason is that they are all real ones produced by the same factory. The only difference is whether the apparel was passed through proper distribution channels or swiped from a table at quitting time.

So, if I can save 80% of my money buying a "counterfeit" motherboard, is my little indiscretion going to break the global economy? Why can't I save a bit on the mobo and splurge a bit on something else? The design and manufacturing knowledge to build them is out there, shouldn't anyone be able to replicate the boards? And if they come from the same assembly line, what differentiates a real one from a fake one? Isn't "proper distribution channels" an artificial construct to bilk customers?

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[LordVader717]

I find the line "the crazy chinese have done it again" funny. They're the ones that make them in the first place! It would probably more fitting to describe them as "trademark abusing" or whatever. I'd guess it's probably a bit of a challenge to "counterfeit" all parts of a motherboard.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[Christophotron]

I agree with you in theory, but in practice...um...not so much. You're going to skimp on the most important component of your system? A counterfeit motherboard might look the same but you have no way of knowing if it REALLY IS the same. Also, you would get no warranty from the manufacturer unless you lied and defrauded them yourself. How much are you really saving?

You may want to risk frying your new shiny 9800GX2 and your 4GB of DDR3, but not I, sir.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[Freexe]

> Isn't "proper distribution channels" an artificial construct to bilk customers

No. They might make their 10-15% profit, but that is reward for the risk and hardwork they put into the R&D that goes into making those chips/boards.

You are IMHO robbing from society as a whole by buying stolen goods. Sure sometimes it's for the greater good, breaking the rules is a good way to influence change. But you can't do it forever. Someone has to pay for the R&D.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Wouldn't these companies be producing chips whether they were getting paid or not? Real chipmakers do it because it's what they love to do.

I wasn't going to pay full price for a super-duper chip anyway. It's not like they lost a sale on me.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[dreamchaser]

Isn't "proper distribution channels" an artificial construct to bilk customers?

Wow. Just...wow. A proper distribution channel exists so a company that spends money on R&D, engineering, manufaturing, etc. can turn a (relatively low margin) profit.

I just love how you rationalize that it's OK to buy counterfeit gear just because it's cheaper. Cutting out the 'evil capitalistic profits' eh? If it were not for profit there would be no incentive for DFI or any other company to make any product in the first place.

You show either a very shallow understanding of economics or a strong Marxist bias. Or it could just be you didn't have your coffee before you posted, or you just want to rationalize your purchase of low cost counterfeit products so you don't feel guilty.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[servognome]

So, if I can save 80% of my money buying a "counterfeit" motherboard, is my little indiscretion going to break the global economy?

Same as printing your own money... alone you won't break the world economy, but if too many people do it the system falls apart.

And if they come from the same assembly line, what differentiates a real one from a fake one? Isn't "proper distribution channels" an artificial construct to bilk customers?

Assembly lines create rejects... most often the "knockoffs" taken from factories are those that don't meet assembly/reliability standards and are "liberated" from the reject bin. Proper distribution channels is not just to bilk customers, it's also to control the quality of goods shipped to customers.
For example leaking capacitors and exploding batteries are the risks of poor control in the non-proper channels.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[Icarium]

The design and manufacturing knowledge to build them is out there, shouldn't anyone be able to replicate the boards? On the point of copied products (not stolen/diverted goods):

And when the company that spent money obtaining the design and manufacturing knowledge (ie: R&D) goes under because they couldn't compete with the barely above cost copies? The company that invests in designing the next generation of a product is gone, and the company that's producing the cheap knockoffs doesn't do design, so where do the next set of improvements come from?

Expecting a company to simply write off its design costs and compete purely on production costs is unworkable.

I know here in slashdotville anything related to IP is treated with scorn, but despite the undeniable increases in abuse IP does serve a valuable purpose when applied correctly.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[apodyopsis]

Basically R&D.

Any firm subsidies the R&D spend by selling their current range at a competitive profit. Any one line only stays in the field for a limited length of time and by then a new product must be ready to roll or the company folds.

This goes double for "arms race" technologies like the IT field, where a mobo will be deprecated in ~8 months. They NEED to sell a certain number in order to fund the development of the next model and so on. Every new fork in the technology will leave a few smaller companies on the graveyard because they either backed the wrong branch or will not have the capital to change.

So along comes a knock off firm who takes the whole IP without doing any R&D and pushes it out at a lower margin and steals profit from the designer. What happens? the original firm suffers and the balance is risked. A similar situation exists in patent car parts and 3rd party parts - when you buy original manufacturer parts you are helping design the next model of car. Without that income the whole system hangs in jeopardy.

Take a step back from your naive, narrow minded viewpoint and try and look at the market as whole. Apart from the legality of the issue Chinese knockoff invariably add nothing to quality, save little on price and carry far greater hidden risks then most people think.

The trick here is to mentally predict what will happen in another 15 years if this continues. My opinion is based on experience and facts as I see them, and yes - I traveled to china 6 times a year for >5 years when working in the CE industry so I have some limited experience in this.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[Richard W.M. Jones]

Similarly, if the cheaper copies are actually inferior they will soon earn a reputation for being so [...]

This is where you argument falls down.

The fakes are (allegedly -- TFA offers no facts) being sold as "genuine DFI(TM) motherboards". Now if they were sold as "genuine ChinaCorp Fake(TM) motherboards" then you could consider the reputation of DFI versus the reputation of the fakes, and perhaps the fakes would be just as good. That is not possible if the fakes pretend to be a DFI motherboard and the consumer can't tell when purchasing which reputation they are choosing.

This is why trademark laws are actually a mostly good sort of monopoly protection.

Rich.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[zakezuke]

So, if I can save 80% of my money buying a "counterfeit" motherboard, is my little indiscretion going to break the global economy? Well... You would have to show me a case where you actually save 80%, as in a $150 motherboard for $30. I'm not talking surplus or last years model here.... things released in the $150 bracket for $30.

Second... how reliable do you think a 80% cheaper board is? I know during the 486 era I was hip to buying some cheap arse boards. We're talking rebranded PC chips crap. Even the socket 754 line which was designed to be the cheap line... even true blue asus boards had a high return rate. I'm sure other /. users could tell us of their horror stories. A board failure is bad enough, not to speak of damage to other parts such as cpu and memory odds are you spent more than $30.00 on.

And third... support from a counterfeit board. Bios updates are ultra handy. Even from a non-counterfeit board i've seen a lack of updates in the pentium III class where win2k or xp refused to work (I forget the issue, but something MS and intel hashed out). Imagine a pirated bios with no chance of an update.

And lastly... let's say you "could" get a $30 motherboard. Odds are you're going to have to replace that sucker relatively soon with another $30 board because of failure, lack of updates, or whatever. You're out $60. You might as well have bought a $60 board, which to me represents an older model, overstock, or closeout deal.

So to sum up

1) 80% savings is too good to be true for new gear.
2) You risk failure or damage to your equipment
3) Lack of support and updates make it a headache
4) Under pretty ideal conditions, you'll likely be better off with a realistic discount for a realistic reason.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[luke2063]

exploding batteries are the risks of poor control in the non-proper channels.

Looks like there was a run on forged Sony laptops last year...

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[servognome]

Ahhh, If only the central bankers were concerned about the system falling apart from printing funny money...

Actually they are - which is why they are pseudo-governement entities. For the finanical market keeping big government in check is just as important as anybody else, and traditionaly governments had the power to print money at will.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[zakezuke]

You sure about that? DFI may contract for these boards, but the manufacture, test, and packaging is all done by the factory. What exactly is DFI providing?

Perhaps they could assert that buying a "genuine" DFI motherboard provides extra peace of mind and a valid warranty, but if all the parts come from the same materials and the same manufacturing techniques (in fact the same exact production line), then the difference is the label and warranty, right?

Or is the knowledge to build chips somehow purely DFI's to own? Reputation. That's really the big deal about buying a name brand board. Reputation that the company in question has some quality control standards, builds their product within specifications, will provide bios updates, and replace the product in the unlikely event that it is defective.

A counterfeit board might have the following issues:

1) Counterfeit bios, or a poorly implemented one.
2) Inferior parts... voltage regulars that overheat, under rated caps, shitty resisters, fuzzy silk screening, poor materials.
3) Mislabled parts... claims to use one chipset but really under the heatsync is another.
4) Dummy parts... looks like a slot, but ain't hooked up to anything.
5) Unknown factor. I can read reviews on Brand X's 123 board vs Brand Y's 123 board. Each model will have it's own features, and performance benefits. Counterfeit 123s may not even share the same attributes (jacks, ports, slots, layout) as a genuine board.

But what does DFI provide? They provide a product worthy of putting their label on it. They accept responsibility for it. They might not even have designed or manufactured it, but it bears their brand and at the end of they day they are accountable for a product they sold. A good reputation is what people pay money for... assurance that they won't get stuck with a product that they'll have to return or lose their money on.

It doesn't matter if we are talking lightbulbs, toasters, motherboards, macrame coat hangers, if you put your brand on a product, you take the blame if that product is crap.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[KUHurdler]

or they could very well be the boards that failed tests, and were supposed to be disposed of.

Re:Just how counterfeit are they?

[Firethorn]

The only difference is whether the apparel was passed through proper distribution channels or swiped from a table at quitting time.

So, if I can save 80% of my money buying a "counterfeit" motherboard, is my little indiscretion going to break the global economy? Why can't I save a bit on the mobo and splurge a bit on something else? The design and manufacturing knowledge to build them is out there, shouldn't anyone be able to replicate the boards? And if they come from the same assembly line, what differentiates a real one from a fake one? Isn't "proper distribution channels" an artificial construct to bilk customers?

Let me get this straight, you're advocating supporting theft by purchasing stolen goods. If you're talking about 'off the books' production runs - it's more than likely they're also using company materials to do it, thus they're stealing.

No, 'proper distribution channels' isn't an artificial construct to bilk you. It's to ensure that quality standards are met, as well as business expenses and profit*.

On the design end, I'll point out that R&D is a significant expense, and the company deserves to make back that money. In many cases, they also try to make a name for quality. Counterfeiters that imitate that name are trading off that quality, normally without meeting it, thus harming the company's reputation(which does matter).

If the counterfeiters went into legitimate business and didn't steal/infringe I wouldn't have a problem with them offering a cheap product at great prices. I'd still probably go for a higher quality company, but that's because I believe that quality is usually worth the higher price.

*No, profit isn't evil.

Well great

[Psychotria]

All those motherboards have all the right looking shininess, capacitors, traces etc etc. How does a person without a PhD in I dunno--hardware something--tell these apart from legit boards (apart from the legit boards not being sold in the country of sale.)

Re:Well great

[malinha]

Look for the "Vista capable" logo!?

Re:Well great

[zakezuke]

All those motherboards have all the right looking shininess, capacitors, traces etc etc. How does a person without a PhD in I dunno--hardware something--tell these apart from legit boards (apart from the legit boards not being sold in the country of sale.) This is a legit enough question, one where there is no easy answer. I remember back in 2000 when some parts dealers were popping up all had fliers for their special of the month. Some were legit, but some used boards with counterfeit bios. The only way one can tell by looking at it was looking up the BIOS ID what was flashed for a moment upon bootup.

It's not like the deals were too good to be true. For about $100 from each dealer you could buy a reasonably cheap MB and Chip combo in OEM packaging and a sub par manual.

There was no real solution to ID fake boards, only the general advice of avoiding seedy dealers, which is none too helpful as no matter where you go, you always have to buy something from someone for the first time. And in the age of ordering online, shop loyalty has gone out the window.

Are they worse than the original?

[Confused]

In what way are those counterfeit motherboards worse than the original?

Is just DFI getting no money for them or can the end user experience any difference?

Confused.

It IS crazy thinking about what the can fake

[Britz]

I have seen fake Nokia phones that run Nokia software. Back three years ago I didn't believe it. Now they fake IPhones, processors, mainboards. I heard (and didn't really believe) that they can, and sometimes do, fake just about everything.

Now take a step back and think about it: Pharmaceuticals, airplane spare parts, nuclear power plant spare parts ... (fill in what you want)

And I am thinking. If they are that skilled, why don't they just produce originals themselves (I heard that some fakes are even better than the originals, especially with products where a lot of value is in the brand instead of the product itself).

Re:It IS crazy thinking about what the can fake

[Anne Thwacks]

airplane spare parts,

There have been several air accidents due to fake aircraft parts, not to mention fake Titanic rivets.

Re:It IS crazy thinking about what the can fake

[SpinyNorman]

If they are that skilled, why don't they just produce originals themselves

They will...

This is the same process that Japan went thru. If you're old enough you'll remember when "Made in Japan" meant crap quality, and back then there were few Japanese brand names. China if building up it's tech expertise (very quickly) building knock-off versions of brands that are easy to sell. As "Made in China" stops becoming synonymous with "cheap piece of crap", then you will see more and more Chinese brands, respected for themselves, rather than knock-offs.

So?

[NaCh0]

Aren't all of these boards Chinese in the first place? The factory probably just did some overtime runs to knock out several more thousand.

and?

[apodyopsis]

Even if they understand it is illegal, they see nothing wrong with it. In my trips to china I saw some crazy stuff - taking somebody else's ideas and doing it better/cheaper is a normal business practice there.

look, on the bright side - it probably will not be fatal. if you really want a shocking (bad pun) Chinese fake, look at this one:-

http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk/internet/pws/pws.nsf/luAllByID/F2DAEE42760F06F3802573F3004D040C

Re:and?

[apodyopsis]

Not from what I saw out there. They shamelessly ripped each other off with the same abandon as they did the western world.

There was 1 difference though - the west was a easier target because the margins were so much better. It is the normal to see us ripped off left, right and center but there is less economic incentive for them to rip each other off.

There is one point worth making though - they fully understand IP law (and find it hilarious), and they use it against the western world. They have created a vast swathe of (frequently ridiculous) patents and try to enforce them against the west as gleefully as they ignore them in the east. Its just another way to make a living off us crazy people.

Trying to persuade them that this is wrong is like trying to persuade them that it is wrong to eat dog - they will look at you like you are a madman - and to them you probably are viewed as a madman. Its about the same magnitude of cultural gap that exists between a marine and your average taleban - you try to explain that some soldiers will come and issue "warning fire", follow "rules of engagement", and try to imprison you to some "geneva convention" (with better food and water then they are used to) in some civilized manner, yet if all else fails drop 40 tonnes of high explosive on your head. What they are used to is creeping up on somebody and cutting their throat. The concept is so alien they will not understand.

Sorry, drifting a bit in the last.

The Irony

[amasiancrasian]

The irony is that most of the "genuine" boards are made by Chinese companies, such as ASUS (CEO is ethnically Chinese, but born in Taiwan) who has operations in China. How do you tell a fake from a real these days? A friend of mine told me that the same factories that make real DVD boxes during the day are run at night and make *exactly* the same packaging for counterfeiting. Sometimes the counterfeit is the real McCoy.

Re:The Irony

[amasiancrasian]

I should also add the only way they'd be able to detect in some cases is that the serial number isn't listed in the official database. The packaging will be exactly the same if they're knock-offs during the night; they'll just be unrecorded in the books.

Re:The Irony

[aurispector]

These guys have the manufacturing capability to make anything; what's lacking is official will to enforce IP. Ironic isn't it? The Chinese government's official line is that they won't do anything to jeopardize economic growth. The fact is the government is rolling in cash - over $1 TRILLION in foreign reserves (the exact opposite of a national debt) and hold big chunks of US Gov't debt. Probably because of this, there also seems to be no real will among western governments to call them on it, despite increasing industry opposition.

Basically the Chinese have the world by the balls and they know it. I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords, provided I can has pork fried rice.

BTW I'm not racist and certainly the Chinese have the right to economic development. I just think it's time they started playing by the rules.

Re:The Irony

[McGiraf]

"BTW I'm not racist and certainly the Chinese have the right to economic development. I just think it's time they started playing by the rules."

How do you think the USA jump started their economic development after the revolution?

And who do you think control the current "rules" and to who's benefit?

The Irony indeed ...

Re:The Irony

[Hoi Polloi]

If you buy a knock-off you won't have access to all that great customer support that always comes from hardware vendors!

Re:The Irony

[archkittens]

I'm pretty sure they're still waiting on security to get there... clearly, IP laws breed insurgency!

Re:The Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Rules? what rules? our rules? their rules?

The rule of the majority?

The rule of might makes right?

The rule of he who has the gold makes the rules?

They don't have to play by 'our' rules at all if they don't want to. And the rest of the world can't make them.

Just because we pressured alot of other countries into playing by our set of rules. Don't think for a second you can do the same to china. They have the population and resources to make their own rules. and force US to play by them.

They make all our stuff now. They hold all our debts. I'd say they can do what ever they want....

scary aint it.

Re:The Irony

[Tenebrousedge]

Yeah, the mainland government (People's Republic of China) isn't all that happy with the folks at the Republic of China (that's Taiwan to y'all). A brief timeline of events:

1911:After having had a 2,000 year run with the Imperial ball, the Chinese decide they want a republic. A bad government is better than no government at all, right? Whoops, how'd we screw that one up? Competing warlords control various parts of the country,

1925: A man name of Chiang Kai-shek begins to take over the reins. He's the best thing that the Chinese have to a leader, so US diplomatic efforts are directed his way. Of course, it would be a horrible insult to claim that he was anything other than the strong leader of a united China, right?

1931: The japanese invade Manchuria. CKS response: oh, dang, what a bummer. I suppose I could send some troops out there, but what the hell--they're only peasants. And you know, if I lose any of my army, then I wouldn't have it any more...wonder who I could get to fight for me? CUE 77 YEARS (and counting) OF U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE.

1931-1945: Chiang Kai-shek fights a losing war, when other people force him to. Through diplomatic cunning, he gets the U.S. (whose desire to have China in the game as a major player, especially after the outbreak of war in Europe, was basically driving the whole matter) to send him aid, soldiers supplies, and recognition as a major power. Meanwhile, the communists are taking things over while CKS lets things slide.

1949: CKS runs off to the newly-acquired island of Taiwan, aka Formosa. The corrupt regime is rescued from annihilation by the U.S. military. Again.

2008: we're still protecting the ROC, the PRC is still angry at the mere existence of the ROC, and the U.S. still buys stuff from both of them. Cause, y'know, we want them to be a major player in the w---hmm. Well, we've been doing it for a while. Can't quit now, right?

For further reading, check out Stilwell and the American Experience in China 1911-45 by Barbara Tuchman, who is more well known for The Guns of August

How about an anology

[spasticfantastic]

A friend of mine is a silversmith. He recently completed a contract for a high class jeweler to produce some bracelets. The cost of the silver used was around £15 but the bracelets were sold in the jewelers store for £120. When he finished the contract he used the original design specs and some left over silver to make a few more bracelets which he sold to friends for £30 - so are these fakes?

Fakes are already very common

[Edzilla2000]

I work in a computer shop, and two weeks ago, a guy tried to sell us 1000 "corsair" RAM modules for a very cheap price. Before buying, my boss asked to test them: 8 out of ten wouldn't even boot the computer, and the two that did were actually "kingston" modules on which the brand name had been removed and replace by "Corsair". The packaging looked exactly the same as legit "corsair"'s. The RAM in fact was the rejects from some factory rebranded and resold.

Re:Fakes are already very common

[Ceseuron]

I remember PC Chips doing something similar. They manufactured motherboards with fake L2 cache, from the old 486 into early Pentium 1 era. Do you think I jest? They glued fake plastic chips onto motherboards and then simply programmed the BIOS to report the cache enabled, even though there was none to begin with.