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PayPal Plans To Ban Unsafe Browsers
Alternative Details brings news that PayPal is developing a plan to stop users from accessing its financial services if they aren't using browsers with anti-phishing protection. PayPal is recommending the use of blacklists, anti-fraud warning pages, and EV SSL certificates. Browsers without anti-phishing features will be considered "unsafe." It seems likely Safari will be included in this category given PayPal's warning about the Apple browser last month.
"'At PayPal, we are in the process of reimplementing controls which will first warn our customers when logging in to PayPal of those browsers that we consider unsafe. Later, we plan on blocking customers from accessing the site from the most unsafe--usually the oldest--browsers,' he declared. Barrett only mentioned old, out-of-support versions of Microsoft's Internet Explorer among this group of 'unsafe browsers,' but it's clear his warning extends to Apple's Safari browser, which offers no anti-phishing protection and does not support the use of EV SSL certificates."
Instead of having to force PayPal users to use only specific browsers, they educate the consumers on safe browsing habits and not blindly clicking on "OMG SEND ME UR CC NUMBER AND BANK DETAILS LOLOL".
Dear PayPal User:
After much consideration, we've determined that your browser is safe again! Please log in at http://127.0.0.1/some/unsafe/address/.
PayPal apologizes deeply for the inconvenience.
I don't like to blame the victim but who clicks a link in an email? Really. Any site that makes it hard for me to get things done from their front page does not deserve my business, so I'll never follow the phish. The reason people still fall for this stuff is because copyright warriors and other IPtards make browsers and sites more complex than they need to be.
If Iceweasel and Konqueror are not on their "safe" list, I won't be able to use them even if I want to. Either the EWeek author or PayPal is clearly clueless because they used the words "safe" and "IE" in the same sentence, so their elimination of safe OS would not be a surprise. The world won't really be safe until insecure OS and the spam they generate are eliminated. Even then there will be a stuff that trickles through.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
While probably rather nasty and nanny-statish of them to do so, I can't help but think that this will force at least some people using certain archaic standards-non-complaint browsers to use better ones, or at least heavily-patched copies of IE 6 (although, since Microsoft is big on IE 7, they might skip that entirely.) Who knows, it might improve standards compliance a little bit—at least as far as transparent PNGs are concerned. (Obviously, this does not count Safari.)
Rob Malda has barely made any effort to fully describe the process of selecting Slashdot moderators. What little information that has been supplied is an outright lie. The story of Malda's moderation system is far more insidious than merely separating wheat from chaff.
Last night, as I leaned over to give my Natalie Portman poster a tender kiss goodnight, I was psychically cast into a hypnotic trance. While entranced, my spirit guides delivered unto me the tale of the Slashdot moderators. Prepare to have your faith in Mr. Malda and moderation shaken to the core.
Difficult as it is to believe, Rob Malda was an outcast teenager. He did well in some of his classes, but was terrible with English. As is so often the tragic case today, his teachers passed him anyway, just to get rid of him. Since Malda had no real life, he spent much of his time on the computer (of course), and watching the public-access cable channel. It was there that Malda heard of the mysterious Mongolian Monks.
Malda was watching his favorite talk show, "Elizabeth Claire Prophet." The guests that night were a group of monks based in Mongolia. The monks described how they had been travelling to China to trade some of their cute teen daughters for Natalie Portman memorabilia. The monks had travelled no more than three days when they noticed a brilliant light in the daytime sky. The light grew larger. And larger. And larger. Soon the sky was completely hidden, from horizon to horizon, by a giant metallic disk.
The monks were taken aboard the craft and placed under some sort of alien mind-control. There, they were given the deepest possible insights into the nature of man, the universe and God. A week later, the alien beings returned the monks to the Earth and vanished forever.
The monks considered the area holy ground and constructed a new temple there, not bothering to return to their old monastery. They took their daughters as wives and began their own commune of worship, based on the teachings of the aliens. The monks practiced meditations which unleashed powerful spiritual forces within them. As the wives bore children, the community grew.
Malda was intrigued by the spiritual insights received by the monks and excited by the idea of incestuous pleasures. Unfortunately, the monks had no internet connection and so Malda could not email them. Without hesitation, Malda booked a flight and left for Mongolia. The plane ride was long and tiring, but his curiosity kept him driven.
After a month of searching, Malda finally located the commune. Initially, he, kept a safe distance, for fear of rejection. He studied the monks from afar. Malda had heard stories of the monks' bizarre meditations, which gave them extraordinary powers. Malda was somewhat skeptical of these stories at first, until he saw the truth first-hand.
In the week that Malda studied the monks, he witnessed the breaking of every natural law. He was astonished as he watched the monks levitate, create pockets of lush weather within the commune and communicated with spirit forces. Malda grew more and more excited and he devised a plan for meeting them.
Malda knew the monks would respect him if he could display his own "magical" powers. He was determined to win their confidence, and he had with him all of the necessary tools. He approached the commune confidently. The monks greeted him with skepticism at the gate. Malda took a deep breath and began his show.
Using an AIBO, a can of Jolt Cola and an inflatable sex doll, Malda shocked the monks with his display of magical powers. The monks accepted him into the commune. Malda's head was shaved and he was given a robe and a room. The monks warned Malda to stay away from their daughters-wives.
The monks methodically taught malda the word of the great messengers. He learned eagerly at first, but soon grew bored with his life in the commune. Malda's life was further stressed when his blow-up doll suffered a puncture-wound and became useless. A few days later, his AIBO's power dried up. With no pet and no woman, Malda slowly
Safari for Mac:
Preferences > Advanced > "Show Develop Menu in Menu Bar"
Develop > User Agent > Firefox 2.0.0.12
Suck it > Paypal
Are you nuts?
"We're sorry. You're not using IE. And if you are using IE, your IE configuration isn't permitting us to run the MegabanX proprietary ActiveX control that our conslutants [sic] told us would eliminate all our liability. Please enable ActiveX support in order to continue banking with us, or turn off that Netscape thingy and upgrade to IE4.0 and resize your window to 800x600 while you're at it."
Forgive me for the sarcasm, but I had to switch banks twice because of that sort of crap. Think back a few years. The last thing any of us would have wanted "since they introduced internet banking" was our banks doing User-Agent and Javashit-based snooping on our configuration.
Why don't you trust me not to be an idiot instead of requiring that I use a different browser due to the fact that other users of my browser are idiots?
Philip Sandifer's academic website
Dear PayPal User,
Due to recent security upgrades, you may no longer be able to log in. In order to give all our customers the highest level of protection against fraud and identity theft, we are requiring that you have up-to-date security measures on your computer.
Please install the enclosed program [malware.exe] to upgrade the security of your computer to ensure that you can continue to access your PayPal account.
Thank you,
- Scams R. Us
Paypal is hyping Extended Validation certificates after Netcraft posts articles like this:
Extended Validation certificates and XSS considered harmful
Curious if nothing else.
Work bio at MMWD
Windows is not to blame for the phishing problem, PEOPLE are. Phishing has been around a lot longer than Windows and Internet Explorer, it was just a lot lower-tech and could not be perpetrated quite as fast.
A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
Who are they to decide what is and isn't safe? They're not a bank, so I don't think they necessarily have any liability if one of their customers loses money, correct? Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Is this even legal? Seriously. If someone has money in PayPal, and if that same someone happens to be using a browser that is deemed "unsafe" and is sequentially banned, isn't that like PayPal holding the money hostage? What happens to those who refuse to "upgrade" in order to access their account?
Maybe instead of doing stupid stuff like this, which breeds a false sense of security among some less-smart users of PayPal, they should think of new and innovative ways to prevent unauthorized access to accounts. (I don't care to list my ideas right now.)
Is Lynx still considered unsafe? Have they fixed that graphics display hole yet? That was reported, like, 20 years ago.
SYSOP ('sih-sop) n.: the guy laughing at your typing.
How about the other way around? Have safe browsers ban PayPal!
And yet, Ebay still sends email to users regarding important matters despite the security risks that poses - ie. how can a user know the email is real, it's not encrypted, etc.
Instead of banning browsers, Ebay should address the bigger security issue of Ebay sending email to users - instead Ebay should only send notices simply saying one has new messages in their Ebay message center, and require the user to actually visit Ebay to view the message contents - not fool-proof, but would substantially reduce the effectiveness of email spoofs.
Ron
If you want to try a new conspiracy on for size, maybe this is also a chance to try to push the use of EV SSL certificates.
I have attended several of the webinars and read a number of the white papers on EV SSL certificates, and I am not completely sold on the usefulness.
Sure, thorough validation of a requester's right to purchase an SSL certificate is a good idea. That should be done already for any SSL purchase, but it is and will not be done because it makes the process too difficult, time consuming, and expensive. Well, too expensive for GoDaddy to sell a $20 certificate and thoroughly validate it, but for the $350+ Verisign certificates? Please...
More to the point, older browser showed a lock icon which indicated the site was secure. With the ease of SSL certificate purchases that quickly became less important because even phishing sites can have valid certificates. The EV SLL scheme is to put up a BIG GREEN BAR with the issued company's name in it. Why not just do that anyway? Those notification bars that come up when a pop-up is blocked, or an ActiveX control wants to install, or a file wants to download; how about use that to show critical information in the certificate, like the CN?
Sure, the URL says www.paypal.com, but the certificate CN says "www.phishingurinfoz.ru".
But then, I suppose a little Java and no protection of that particular window element could lead to a phalse display.
Can we ban Paypal for unsafe money exchange?
Netcraft is dead. Paypal confirms it. And E-bay swapped it for some military hardware.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
They can always download and install Firefox. Then install an anti-phishing addon.
Firefox works as far back as Windows 95 IIRC? I installed Firefox on my uncle's Windows 98 box, the only issue was that the start bar title icon didn't show up properly but it ran.
Sure he can't use his iPod with Windows 98, but Firefox works great. If he gets a RAM upgrade he can run Windows 2000. But technically with 128M of RAM or more he can run Windows XP on his 333Mhz processor, but it will be really slow.
I don't think we can afford to buy a new machine, and his old machine runs great.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
...but the head of the International Phishers Guild says that all of their sites will continue to work with any browser you want. Spokesman Anome Smith says "We will not be following Paypal's lead on this. Popular phishing sites like www.payypal.com, www.paypa1.com, and 192.168.178.287/paypal will all continue to work with any browser you please. "
This is stupid and pointless.
The problem isn't "unsafe browsers". Phishing is social engineering, not hacking. The problem is unsafe users.
Give a stupid user a safe browser and a semi-sophisticated phish and they'll cough up that login.
Give a smart user a IE 5.0 and they'll never get busted.
If paypal really wanted to increase user safety they'd do it with user education.
Tell users to very carefully navigate to the correct site, make a bookmark, and then never go to the site any other way again.
Question everything
What next, users have to pass an IQ test to get on the Internet? That way all of the stupid people who click on email links from phishing scams before looking at the message to see if it is fake or not, will forever see "Error ID10T: User is not smart enough to use the Internet. Request denied!"
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
eBay and PayPal have demonstrated that they no longer deserve my business.
And the reason people purchase products from large companies is so that they could offload some of the "hassle" or responsibility to the company that is hiring qualified professionals to analyze and develop the product they wish to sell.
If me as a regular user (Pretend at the moment I'm not writing this from my linux laptop) wanted to trade my personal time to assume the responsibility of learning cutting edge counter phishing procedures, then I fail to see the purpose of paying for the service.
From the above statement, we could look at the underling problem here.
We as geeks know how to avoid these problems on the internet and whatnot, because it is our every day life. However don't expect a singer, entertainer, pilot, lawyer or mechanic.
If we could afford to, we will not change our own automobile's engine oil, even if we knew how to. So why should we expect mechanics, lawyers and any non geek to stay on top of CERT/Slashdot and all other form of security concerns when all they want to do is use it for basic communications and features?
Its the whole idea of specialization. People specialize in various trades, and sell services to each other.
In conclusion: When a regular user choose to pay $xxx.00 for a Windows license instead of learning how to install and use Linux for free. Its a time and hassle investment that they're making, and not really a religious preference.
-Alex. http://bit.ly/1iVPtfA
Paypal not letting you in?
Have no fear.. with paypalproxy.com you can use any browser to access your account.
--
So long and thanks for all the phish.
Yes. Go to http://turbotax.intuit.com/freedom and pretend you want to file your taxes there. Understandably, you need to enable cookies/javascript. But then what happens? "Your browser is not up to date" it says. "Please install Firefox 1.07, IE 6, or Netscape 8 on Windows, or some other stuff for Mac."
Wow...please install these out-of-date or defunct browsers. So I contacted tech-support to let them know their page was broken, and they actually took the time to *link to the firefox 1.0.7* page, which says it's the most up-to-date version of firefox. When you click the download link, it takes you to mozilla.com where you can download firefox 2. *facepalm*
So after a bit of googling, I found the user agent for firefox 2 on windows (firefox 3's windows user agent *still* wouldn't work) and plugged that into the User Agent Switcher extension. TurboTax worked like a charm after that! All I had to do was lie and say that I was using Firefox 2 on windows instead of firefox 3 on ubuntu.
No more than we walked away from the telephone, fax machine, and postal mail. I simply found folly in your statement that the whole phishing thing was Microsoft's fault. Put blame where responsibility falls, on people who manage important data.
More information here and here.
The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
Obviously IQ tests are not required to use the Internet, nor have children, nor drive, etc.
I am a PayPal customer. I have a paypal secure ID, a hardware token that generates 6 digits numbers (synchronized with paypal's servers) that are part my password authentication process. That means that even if someone gets my password (i.e. fisher), they won't be able to login that easily (they would need the hardware token to generate the current 6 digits number set, which changes periodically every 30 seconds). With all of that, I see no reason for paypal to block me if I am using Safari, even if Safari is a bit unsafer than other browsers. That would just mean adding an extra item to the list of things my iPhone can't do: access PayPal's webpage. That would really piss me off.
I'm not sure if there is a word for this(Phish and release), but it goes like this:
Paypal should send out official looking emails with links to a site that isn't on Paypal.
If someone enters their information on this fake site, Paypal would warn them that they got phished and released!
Paypal could tell them important stuff like only manually going into paypal.com and never clicking on a link in an email.
God spoke to me.
And thusly, we purchase a service from PayPal MegaCorp and expect them to take measures it deems necessary to protect the service it provides. The bottom line is simple: this is PayPal's business, it is PayPal's right to choose how to operate it, and we can take our ball and go home. And considering how many people think PayPal is evil, anyway, this should come as a neither surprise nor disappointment.
But I still stand firm that people are to blame for the lack of security on the Internet. The telephone, the radio, the television, the tabloids, the newspapers, books, and so on were all considered at one time a method of mass disinformation, and some still are to a lesser extent. Why else would we have phrases in our lexicon like "you can't believe everything you read/see on TV/hear on the radio"? Because people are willing to throw caution to the wind. We are more apt to scrutinize and discriminate against information people may throw at us in person, face-to-face, but as soon as the information is put into some form of communication medium, we lose our senses.
We know the guy on the street corner in New York is not selling real Rolex watches; we know the fella that chats you up on the bus is not legitimately selling prescription medications. Even so, we are more apt to believe that these things are available on web sites, because we have it drilled into us that the world is at our finger tips, every thing can be found on the Internet.
If you want to get down to brass tacks and point fingers, WE are to blame for the folly of those who surround us. Yes, WE are to blame. Because WE chose to learn and understand and ignore the plight of those who have not. WE are the shop class instructors letting the uninformed use the table saw without proper instruction and then blaming them when they lose fingers. It is our responsibility to educate and inform others why what they are doing is wrong -- and in many cases we even get paid for doing so.
And I do not mean that using Windows is wrong, but that clicking on email links without thorough scrutiny -- or even at all -- is wrong; that blast-forwarding unconfirmed rumors is wrong; that not understanding that the bank will never send an email and tell you to go to a site and enter all of your vital statistics (and if it does, then you should run like hell, anyway.); that the use of semicolons is ill-advised.
I find it amusing that some of us will take the "duty" to throw out Mom and Dad's Windows PC and replace it with a Linux or Mac box, then walk away pleased with ourselves over the "service" we have just done. When, in fact, the "service" we should be providing is education. It does not matter in front of what box Mom and Dad sit, without the proper knowledge, they are still vulnerable to phishing schemes and exploits.
Really, these so-called idiots out there are mostly just uninformed. Some non-BOFH-type PFY handed them a computer at the WorstBuy, CompUSELESS, or Radio Shanty, without taking the short amount of time it takes to instill a small bit of cynicism over unsolicited or unexpected information and requests. There were no pamphlets at the store explaining how email can be as dangerous as a phone call from "your phone company" or "your bank." Most of these people CAN be taught and guided.
And the ones that cannot will be eliminated one way or another, but of course not before making complete and utter asses of themselves.
This Apple and Linux user blocks Paypal as unsafe.
... of where the Terrorists won.
Ironically, phishing sites won't block users using "unsafe" browsers, which just makes them more user-friendly than paypal.
"... so their little green bandaid is not going to fix anything."
I always thought this was a plot cooked up by VeriSign and Microsoft anyway. IE gets a cute little green bar that looks like it means something, and VeriSign charges four times as much money for the same certificate.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
And WE used to educate them every September. That is until AOL based their business on getting everyone to connect to the internet without bothering to properly educate them.
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
There are four scenarios, assuming we agree to what "safe" is.
The immediate result is only affecting scenario 2, so there will be some loss of business.
In the long run, paypal expects users who hit the scenario 2 to switch to a safe browser. And paypal is big and important enough (whether we like it or not) for a reasonable number of users to do the switch.
We regret to inform you that we will not be able to process your Paypal Buyer Protection claim for the money because we have determined that you are not using a "safe" browser - a violation of our terms.
This, despite the fact that your victimization had nothing to do with phishing and your account was not actually compromised.
Due to this violation and to protect Paypal internal security, we have locked your account (and will be keeping the other $20,000 you had in it.)
This space available.
Dear god in heaven, please let it be so!
John
I use OpenDNS which will not resolve a phishing site. Also, Paypal is one to talk. Their own Paypal plugin for creating virtual debit card numbers detects their own site as a phishing site. There goes using paypal on my Wii.
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
What next, users have to pass an IQ test to get on the Internet? That way all of the stupid people who click on email links from phishing scams before looking at the message to see if it is fake or not, will forever see "Error ID10T: User is not smart enough to use the Internet. Request denied!"
We have those now. They are administered from a testing center in Nigeria. If you fail, your internet is soon cut off for non-payment.
I love how you need a license to drive, but not to CREATE LIFE!
And people wonder why society is fucked.
And yeah, a written test to be allowed to use the internet would be nice.
I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
If they were really being consistent, they would ban Internet Explorer first.
No matter what soi-disant "security features" Microsoft implements, the fundamental design of IE is inherently insecure, and it can not be made secure without making deep changes in the API that will cause Microsoft to lose too much face to go through with it.
But I'm stuck at the end. Where's the "Suck it" menu?
I realize I'm a little late in the game for this, and I give myself 50/50 odds that I'll actually send it in, but here goes:
I use PayPal right now because it is one of the more secure options out there. I give my financial details to one party (PayPal) instead of every site I do business with -- which means PayPal gives me the opportunity to review every single transaction, and approve or deny.
It's also nice and reassuring to visit www.paypal.com, and see an https URL the whole way through -- knowing nothing important is ever transmitted in the clear.
And for some small amount of money -- I forget exactly how much it is, but relatively cheap -- I can even get a physical security token, which, I believe, is also valid with VeriSign. And due to its implementation, this token requires no additional software -- I just read a number off the token and into a browser window. What's not to like?
These are the reasons a highly technical and security-conscious person might want to use PayPal. Highly secure, with a lot of control and choice.
Now, I can understand wanting to protect the less-technical users. Send them emails every now and then, telling them not to click links in emails. Warn them if they're not using a secure browser. Provide technical support, walkthroughs, and as much hand-holding as you like.
But please don't alienate those of us who know what we are doing by removing our choice. Don't block browsers simply for not supporting anti-phishing, or having it disabled -- some of us know how to read the address bar, and value our privacy. Block older, actually vulnerable browsers if you must, but do not make it a whitelist.
The day I have to turn on user-agent spoofing to get to my money is the day I take my money somewhere else.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Thanks for posting this, it saves me some typing.
The only thing that changes is that the fraudsters don't have to be physically at your wallet anymore to steal your cards. ID theft has been around for as long as paying with your ID (be it CC or cash card) has been around. The only thing that changed is that they don't have to steal your card anymore, then phone you, pose as your bank and ask for your secret number to void your card. As stupid as it sounds, people fell for that.
There is one, and only one, thing we can do to make ID theft harder (not impossible, though): Educate people that their personal information is not to be handed out like candy. Unfortunately, I don't expect much help from our governments in this issue. It kinda works against their agenda.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The obvious Userfriendly cartoon to this topic: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19991114
Illiad already had that idea a decade ago. And it was already a good one back then. Unfortunately, how do you want to enforce it?
I wouldn't react with keeping the "dumb" people out. But I would highly recommend (not require, just recommend) that people get some sort of "internet 101, do's and dont's" class before hooking up. I'm honestly amazed that no bank or other financial page ever had the idea of offering such a course, free of charge. Just a few pages, informing you of the various scams and practices, as well as some counterstrategies when you think you might have already done something foolish. Setting up such a page, especially if you outsource it, runs in the four or lower five digit range. A single ID theft attack can easily reach 6 digits in damages.
So I wouldn't say that only "dumb" people fall for such scams. It's simply that people don't even think a lot of the things that happen are possible. When they click a link, they expect to visit the page this link displays, they don't even know it's possible to show a completely different URL than what you link to. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. The idea that some BHO could hook into their browser and hijack a secure transaction is completely beyond their imagination. We have to educate the users. Information is the only sensible shield against ID theft.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
All I had to do was lie
It's a page that deals with doing your taxes. Duh.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
... giving Paypal money. Wow, right on brother. Sock it to the man.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
First of all, thanks for belittling me. I was that bank IT guy, from 98 to 02. And contrary to your opinion, the IT staff of the average bank is quite good. It's just hard to find someone with good hacking skills and no police record these days.
What's true, though, is that the prophet ain't worth a dime in his own country. Only after I quitted and started consulting, they hired me and took me serious, essentially paying me to tell them the same thing I repeated over and over while i was there. Banks do take security serious. Mainly out of self interest. First of all, the obvious loss of money. But more important even, the possible loss of goodwill. Usually a bank settlement after a fraud takes place can be summed up as "we pay, you shut up".
So whether they're liable for the loss is moot anyway. Paying some moron the 2k he lost when his account was hijacked and ransacked is peanuts compared to bad press. Banks will pay. Even if they keep telling that they won't (this is mostly hoping people will start getting a bit more wary when doing online banking).
Banks already started to acknowledge that there is a problem. Recently we had a week long two page "bank security course" in our major newspaper. To understand the quality of this, you have to know that no paper can write anything the major banks don't want it to write (banks are amongst the most important ad buyers here, piss off the banks and you close your doors). Actually, I know it was some sort of "sponsored report", if you know what I mean.
So appearantly banks did wake up to hear the music. And when you look at their pages, they try to inform about the most recent frauds taking place, but that simply isn't enough. When you do your online banking once a week, you might already have clicked that "give info now or your account is gone" mail, without reading the warning.
What I'd envision is something like a quiz, where you can win a savings account with some token amount of money predeposited if you answer it all right. People like quizzes, especially when you can win something. The selling point would be that your bank does care about your money and your security, something that sells pretty well here (people would rather give you the keys to their home than their banking info, or tell you how much they earn, here).
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE
for those who missed it (and to avoid the lameness filter) that was a south park reference
I don't want to get into an argument, or act judgmental, so I apologize in advanced.
As a firm believer of the second amendment I wanted to put out there another lobby group that I personally find more reasonable:
http://www.huntersandshooters.com/
I warn you though, I believe strongly in allowing gun ownership and freedom, but also believe in requiring trigger locks, and tracking of gun ownership. Believing that the true meaning of the second amendment is to protect the opportunity for armed rebellion and against government backed militias. As such truly acting upon its intended (in my interpretation) purpose is an honorable act of treason such as the American revolution was to England, but an act of treason none the less.
Again, I do not want to start a debate, and do not mean to offend or imply my judgment is better than yours. I just wanted to put out there another group that believes in the second amendmant, that was formed by gun owners who believed the NRA was taking stand on issues not close to their hearts, and dividing and conquering the second amendment fight. Hanging gun owners in more liberal states out to dry.
Thanks if you read this far.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Considering the plan for eBay to start REQUIRING PayPal as the only form of payment for auctions, PayPal's notorious habits of freezing people's accounts unfairly and improperly, and now, their intentions of banning popular web browsers just because they don't include dubious "anti-phishing" technologies in them ... I'd say the INTELLIGENT thing to do is give PayPal the boot!
I did... Google Checkout works fine for me as an alternate way to accept credit card payments from people, and seems to cost a little less too.
Looks like Rob Malda is not the only one who has no life.