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Round Robin Scheduling Not Power-Efficient

Via_Patrino writes "While having to distribute load between several servers, round robin, or any other technique that balances load equally, is the most common approach because of its simplicity. But a recent study shows that trying to accumulate load on some servers can improve energy efficiency because the other servers will be mostly unused during off-peak periods and then able to make better use of power saving methods. Specially, where load involves lots of concurrent power-consuming TCP connections, which was the case in the study, a new load-balancing algorithm resulted in an overall 30% power savings. Here's the paper (PDF)."

141 comments

  1. Logical conclusion by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So if we're willing to sacrifice speed for energy savings, shouldn't we just use the bare minimum number of computers that can handle the workload without crashing?

    1. Re:Logical conclusion by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What this means is someone needs to architect an intelligent loading system. Ideally, it would manage the load on your base load servers (that are on all the time), and when those servers reach 85-95% of capacity (numbers from my ass) other servers should be brought out of low power/sleep mode to start serving.

      Of course, if you use Amazon EC2, this is all moot, as they can shift load around to have their cluster run at peak efficiency.

    2. Re:Logical conclusion by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 2, Informative

      BTW Dynamic workflow based provisioning of VMs can (or will eventually) allow you to do this without sacrificing speed.

    3. Re:Logical conclusion by redcircle · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think that's the point of the study and solution. Round robin doesn't account for under-utilization of resources so it still balances between multiple servers when not needed. What their new algorithm does is allow the servers that are not needed to use their power saving features and maximize utilization of only the needed resources(servers).

    4. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not that I'm going to read the article... but surely the situation is more along the lines of:

      You have a load that varies, the peak load requires 10 servers to keep performance acceptable (where the definition of acceptable can vary according to redundancy requirements, etc). But the usual load is 20% of the peak.

      With round robin each server would be running at 20% load in the usual case. From a power perspective it might be better to have 2 servers running at 100% and 8 servers idle, or 4 servers at 50% and 6 servers idle or whatever.

      I can't see a sacrifice in speed there. You are just moving the idle cpu around so that some servers are essentially completely idle and hence use less power instead of all server's being partly idle.

      If a server running at 100% and another idle uses less power than 2 servers running at 50% then why not?

    5. Re:Logical conclusion by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We've been sacrificing computing power for efficiency for years. New Server CPUs tout thier energy savings atleast as much, and quite often more than they tout their computational power. As electricity gets more expensive and data centers continue to grow this trend can only continue; it's simply too expensive to a warehouse full of server racks unless you focus on efficiency.

      I'm waiting for the first company to put a data center a few hundred feet under water, where the water temp is low. You'd be surrounded by the worlds biggest heat sink. The environmentalists would have a hissy fit but that's never stopped industry before, and of course you could argue that you are saving electricty on cooling.

    6. Re:Logical conclusion by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      It can be done with your standard job scheduling/load balancing systems and, yes, about half a dozen shell scripts.

      --
      Deleted
    7. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You aren't sacrificing speed as long as you have properly benchmarked your servers, and understand where the performance hockeystick starts.

      Apply a connection limit slightly below the performance hockeystick in your load balancers / content switches and you will get maximum power utilization with minimum performance impact.

      One other way I see customers getting maxim utilization out of their servers is by using dynamic resource schedule and vmware esx to move virtual servers around behind a load balancer. At this point your load balancer can be set at round robin (or optimally least connections) and you can use VMware to realize the cost savings of running at 90% utilization vs 30% utilization.

    8. Re:Logical conclusion by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Unless you're running a hugely complex ASP.net application, in which case, it doesn't work so well.

    9. Re:Logical conclusion by Colin+Smith · · Score: 3, Funny

      Good luck with that. Really.

      --
      Deleted
    10. Re:Logical conclusion by madskyllz · · Score: 1

      1:34AM - "Honey, I have to go to work to replace a faulty power supply..."
      Regular data center - tech drives to work, replaces hard drive.
      Underwater data center - tech drives to end of the pier where he gets into his 1-man submarine and dives to -100ft.

      Now I ask you this: Does State Farm have submarine insurance?

    11. Re:Logical conclusion by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      I would totally be willing to have a site hosted in a data center that's under the water table and depends on a reliable source of power to keep its pumps going. It sounds like nothing could go wrong. I'll just throw in a few extra servers for failover if anything happens.

      Screw you, environmentalists!

    12. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting idea, but I see a potential problem in that water is very full of very small life forms. Think of anything that has been inert underwater for a month or more, it's covered in heat-insulating life. The only way around it would be to create a dead bubble of water around the servers, but to keep life out it would have to be tightly sealed, which would effectively create a wetsuit for the servers. Those problems could of course be solved, but they'll all add to the cost.

    13. Re:Logical conclusion by dpilot · · Score: 1

      1: Then put turbine blades above your data center, so that the upwelling heated water spins them, generating electricity.

      2: Use some of the electricity to power your data center, and the rest to power other thermodynamically impossible projects.

      3: Profit!! (no hidden step needed here, just an impossible one)

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    14. Re:Logical conclusion by rawler · · Score: 1

      Actually, depending on the use and exactly HOW you target requests, you can gain performance.

      If you're careful about how you send your requests, you can really improve the cache-performance of the slave servers. Say each server get requests that depends on roughly the same resources and that'll improve performance a LOT.

    15. Re:Logical conclusion by Jaqenn · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure if this is a positive comment, or a negative comment wrapped in positive sounding sarcasm. I'm responding as though it were the latter.

      Your comment assumes that losing power to the facility is a catastrophe. I say it's not, if it's unmanned.

      Yeah, your cooling setup is unpowered, but so are your heat sources.

      I bet you could put a set of stilts into the ground, and build a computing environment wrapped around the stilts. Lower the equipment into the water when it's running, and raise it when it needs to be maintained.

      --
      You are awash in a sea of fiercely stated opinions. Obvious exits are: 'File->Quit', 'Reply', and 'Page Down'.
    16. Re:Logical conclusion by Freeside1 · · Score: 1

      Just hook some wires up to a bunch of irate electric eels, free!

    17. Re:Logical conclusion by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      It's not clear from the article that they're referring only to persistent connections which remain open but which don't have much activity. The one they analyze is Windows Live Messenger.

      They talk about 30% savings in these applications, but also give 59bn kWh as the figure for total power usage for all data centers, the majority of which probably wouldn't benefit from tweaks suited to persistent connections.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    18. Re:Logical conclusion by Hatta · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what this paper is saying. You still need extra servers around to handle peak load, but leave them in a power saving state until you need them. Round robin should work as a way to distribute work across your pool of servers, but for the sake of energy efficiency you want to shrink your pool to the minimum size that can handle the work.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    19. Re:Logical conclusion by Gat0r30y · · Score: 1

      I'm waiting for the first company to put a data center a few hundred feet under water, - thats just silly, It would be far more efficient to pump water to cool the servers, pump it through a heat exchanger then use the hot water for, well hot water. Even server farms need hot running water.
      --
      Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
    20. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you might have a a hissy fit if you worked there, dumbass.

      Fucking redneck asshole.

    21. Re:Logical conclusion by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      The environmentalists would have a hissy fit

      Only the stupid ones. Either undersea or in the middle of a city, you're adding heat energy to the planet. The main question is whether you want to spend even more heat energy to relocate some of the excess to a more convenient location.

      Put another way, "server electricity" is better than "server electricity plus air conditioning electricity".

      Now, an easier sell might be to move data centers into less urban, possibly even rural settings. Think about it: no urban heat island to contend with. Usually more breeze to make that reduced cooling requirement even more efficient. Cheaper land to build on. It wouldn't be as effective as moving it underwater, but the logistics would be a lot easier to manage.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    22. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Hm, maybe if people programmed things like they did in the 70s and 80s instead of relying on twelve layers of abstraction and gobs of RAM and clock cycles to move numbers around?
      How come it's always on the hardware team's side to reduce power? Why don't you software monkeys come down to earth and do some assembly?

    23. Re:Logical conclusion by Hawke666 · · Score: 1

      So the tech lied to his honey? Or was the problem incorrectly diagnosed at first and turned to be a hard drive instead of a power supply? And does the tech of the underwater data center fix the problem or just hide underwater until it goes away?

      I must hear more of this story!

    24. Re:Logical conclusion by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 3
      Ahh, Slashdot, where anything Microsoft is thought of as a piece of shit. Mailtrust (formerly Webmail.us) has hundreds of thousands users using their mail product. The backend? Linux running mail daemons and their storage system. The front end? Windows Server 2008.

      Get over yourself. Use the right tool for the job.

    25. Re:Logical conclusion by Detritus · · Score: 1

      You really need more than that to avoid scheduling problems. I'd limit the load to about 60%. Event driven systems under high load can behave strangely.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    26. Re:Logical conclusion by kesuki · · Score: 1

      it's much easier to just run a pipe, and draw in fresh water from a nearby waterway/the ocean.

      the former WTC IIRC was using seawater to cool the building.. you don't need to build underwater, which would be impractically expensive compared to cheaply piping cold water in and piping hot water out.

      and yes environmentalists are against this for a lot of reasons (one is that warm water doesn't let oxygen or CO2 in our out the way cold water does, has to do with total available surface area)... but that really hasn't stopped people from using water for cooling.

      it would be more interesting to me if people were using fresh (city water) to cool buildings, get it hot enough with heat exchangers, and store it and then sell the hot water back for residential or commercial use (eg: hot showers, doing laundry, washing dishes, etc) it might actually work in a city the size of LA or New York providing you could find the customers... but then not everyone could do it, there would be a glut in the market... still, some could so it that way, while the rest pissed off the environmentalists by heating up seawater.

    27. Re:Logical conclusion by need4mospd · · Score: 1

      Under water? Think of the amount of time/energy/electricity required to build it and you've already screwed the amount of energy you'd save on cooling costs for years. I'd hate to see the look on the client's face when I try to convince him that his data center is going under water. Our current client wouldn't even allow us to build it at an elevation below the 500 year flood plane.

    28. Re:Logical conclusion by kesuki · · Score: 1, Insightful

      'The environmentalists would have a hissy fit'

      "Only the stupid ones."

      So your logic is that, 'since we're using all this energy, what we need to do is heat up the oceans, instead of the atmosphere, because it takes less electricity to do that, thus making us use 5% less energy making us 5% more environmentally friendly'

      the difference is huge though, if we heat up the atmosphere, it radiates into space (if it didn't LA would be about 6000 degrees Fahrenheit at noon)

      If we heat up the oceans, less CO2 and less O pass through the membrane, and certain life forms that are considered parasitic tend to benefit from the warming of the ocean as well...

      so basically, not only are we killing off ocean life, we're hitting ocean life with a 3 pronged attack 1. less algae can propagate, because tho ocean is warming in that 'heat island' 2. parasitic life forms are propagating fast, killing off other aquatic life. and 3. because there is less algae, and the disruption in the food chain means there is now less food in the ocean for all aquatic life.

      Sure it takes more energy to heat air than to take cold water and make it warm, but most of that heat radiates away from earth, without causing harm, if everybody within a mile of water used bodies of water for cooling to 'save electricity' there would be a horrendous mass extinction even in the oceans, much like the one occurring on land by human action.

      there Is a half way solution though, it's called 'evaporative cooling' water as it evaporates takes energy into the earths atmosphere, where it can then radiate into space, and eventually the water falls back to earth as rain... problem is, because so many plants and animals rely on evaporative cooling, and because heat creates humidity from wet things, evaporative cooling only works constantly in a dry climate.

      you can also take cold water, and heat it all the way to steam, which can be done no matter the humidity level, but then you loose a lot of the energy savings that you were aiming for in the first place.

      I know you personally feel that using less energy does less harm to the environment, but in this situation you're comparing apples to oranges. heating up air and heating up water have different effects and different consequences... if they didn't everyone would be using seawater today, since it's been in use at least 20 years if not longer.

    29. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And surprisingly enough, the right tool for the job means a moratorum on MS products and services.

    30. Re:Logical conclusion by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2

      Citations for the idea that the ocean holds heat while the air radiates it harmlessly?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    31. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude... that's why God put ice cubes in the ocean way up north - to keep it cool!

    32. Re:Logical conclusion by marnues · · Score: 1

      Don't be an apologist. It is not the right tool for that particular job. Windows is never the right tool for any server setting. Sometimes it is not the wrong tool though, which is most likely the case here.

    33. Re:Logical conclusion by billcopc · · Score: 1

      The majority of boxes in our cage are independent, load balancing doesn't even apply. If we could save power, we would, but without moving to a sloppy VM cluster, I don't see how it's even possible.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    34. Re:Logical conclusion by statemachine · · Score: 0

      Physics? Chemistry?

      Run your own experiment on heating and cooling a liter of water vs. a liter of air.

    35. Re:Logical conclusion by Allnighterking · · Score: 1

      Speed for what? CPU .. honestly I could suffer a 50% cut in CPU on my servers and never know it. Disk I/O. Already optimized for that, Ram preload saves me there. Network I/O I run my network at about 60% capacity peak, 20% point median. So what would I be sacrificing by turning down all the systems not needed to handle the current load? If one of my systems is handling 100 users without fail or lag, why in heavens name would I believe that 10 systems running 10 users each would make the user experience any better? That's (the 100 users) at 2am... then comes 8am when my load peeks (and holds) and I'm suddenly handling 20k users and have 10 systems running. If I could cycle down 9 of them at 2am and have them come online automatically by 8am ... I'd love it. Course this also begs me to ask. Which one is my minimum, the 2am need, or the 8am need?

      --

      I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.

    36. Re:Logical conclusion by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Well, water is a far better thermal conductor than air. Without any evidence to the contrary, my first guess would be (due to being educated in physics and chemistry) that the ocean would shed heat better than the atmosphere.

      Again, do you have any citations that would explain why the unintuitive opposite would be true? I'm not claiming that you guys are wrong, but I'd need to read about it before accepting your statements as fact.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    37. Re:Logical conclusion by statemachine · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why that's unintuitive to you. Do you cook at all?

      Stick a thermometer in containers of the same volume of water and air. Heat up the containers to the same temperature. Let them sit. Which do you think will cool off first?

      Maybe I have to hint to you that the density makes a big difference? Think about heating up a large solid metal plug of the same volume to the same temperature as the water and air. If you chose a temperature where you wouldn't stick your finger into that water, how long do you think it would take for that metal plug to cool off before you would touch it?

      Or even better, how long are you going to wait for that cookie sheet to cool off before grabbing it with your bare hand? Notice that the cookies cooled off long before the cookie sheet.

      Do you really need citations for elementary and high school level science experiments?

    38. Re:Logical conclusion by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Really mods, are we going to go there? I suggest a simple household experiment with 2 of the most common resources on the planet to a person who has a slashdot ID and thus money, and easy access to a computer, and who seemingly refuses to use Google or Yahoo or any other search engine, and *I* get dinged as overrated, and *he* gets upped as underrated?

      Obviously it's the same person who moderated it. But guess what? Just because you don't like science or lessening your ignorance, doesn't mean things will magically change to your viewpoint.

    39. Re:Logical conclusion by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Do you really need citations for elementary and high school level science experiments?

      Oh, you should have just said so! When you get to college, they'll teach you about advanced concepts like "specific heat" which explain why it takes a hell of a lot more heat to raise water the same number of degrees as air.

      Hang in there and study hard, kid. One day you'll understand why things obvious to high school students aren't obvious at all to more educated folk.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    40. Re:Logical conclusion by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Did you even bother to think about the experiment? It was about how much energy each medium can contain.

      An epic fail for you. Go back to kindergarten.

    41. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when did anyone put servers into low-power sleep mode ?

    42. Re:Logical conclusion by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      What this means is someone needs to architect an intelligent loading system. Ideally, it would manage the load on your base load servers (that are on all the time), and when those servers reach 85-95% of capacity (numbers from my ass) other servers should be brought out of low power/sleep mode to start serving.

      Of course, if you use Amazon EC2, this is all moot, as they can shift load around to have their cluster run at peak efficiency.

      The most insightful part of your post was "(numbers from my ass)"...

      No... just kidding... really... actually, seeing that in the middle of an intelligent post gave me my laugh today! Thanks!!!

      So... on to a serious reply, I think certain BladeCenter configurations were designed to do this. I also find that on various single box SMP solutions from IBM, a noticeable amount of power is saved when the server is not under load. My power usage will vary as much as 150 watts on my Netfinity M10 7000 (4Way SMP) depending on CPU loads. Theoretically (according to it's Hardware Maintenance Manual and User Guide), the machine could use as much as an additional 300W (due to presumably load) over the peak I have seen.

      Under load, some of the added power is going to the CPUs, a very small amount to the hard drives (all 4 always run during actual disk activity as I am using RAID 1E - but mostly data is retrieved from various caches), and some is used by the myriad of fans increasing speed (which coincides with the CPUs doing things for extended times).

      I'd guess that on an SMP system with a decent amount of cores, there should be a way to cut CPU power to "power saver mode" for usages that would be below a certain threshold (ie: below 85% total CPU utilization - number from your ass) ;-).

      That just leaves the really high speed, really heavy spindle, really never stop, SCSI (or that new fake SCSI thingy called SATA2) drives drawing a ton of power.

      Amazon EC2 looks like an ideal way to do it using clustering, and some form of "Power Saver" mode on all the machines for when the load isnt shifted to certain parts of the cluster. Thanks for that... couldn't for the life of me find where I'd seen that cluster setup (via an earlier /. post a few months ago), and the name "Amazon" wasnt exactly one of the names I woulda thought of - that and I am terrible with names to begin with.

    43. Re:Logical conclusion by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Your experiments are dumb and irrelevant. Here are some non-hypothetical numbers:

      Mass of the atmosphere: 5.15*10^18kg
      Mass of the oceans: 1.4*10^21kg

      So, the oceans are about 250 times more massive than the atmosphere. It also takes about 4 times as much energy to raise a mass of liquid water by one degree as the same mass of air. Ergo, it takes about 1,000 times as much heat to raise the Earth's water temperature as its air. This is neglecting that the heat of fusion of water is about 80 times that of its specific heat, so the polar ice caps can absorb vast amounts of energy and skew the equation even more in favor of the water.

      A thousand times. Three orders of magnitude. And again, you wouldn't have to use the extra energy for air condition, so the water cooling numbers are better still.

      Kindergarten indeed.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    44. Re:Logical conclusion by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Hey! For once you actually looked something up. It only took.. how many comments?

      A volume of water at STP holds more energy than the same volume of air at STP. Which is what this whole thread boils down to.

      Here's what you said earlier: "Citations for the idea that the ocean holds heat while the air radiates it harmlessly?"

      Here's what you say now, "It also takes about 4 times as much energy to raise a mass of liquid water by one degree as the same mass of air."

      Epic, epic FAIL. You can't even troll correctly. Yes, kindergarten indeed.

    45. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/HeatBucket/

    46. Re:Logical conclusion by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      Get over yourself. Use the right tool for the job. LOL. Hey you were the one telling me you had picked the wrong tool for the job.
      --
      Deleted
    47. Re:Logical conclusion by cyphercell · · Score: 1
      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    48. Re:Logical conclusion by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      but not according to the museum of hoaxes

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    49. Re:Logical conclusion by kylehase · · Score: 1

      The problem with underwater data centers is the water. How's about the arctic. It's cold there too. This project chose the arctic to reduce their cooling costs and remove the need for redundant cooling systems.

      --
      You want fun, go home and buy a monkey!
    50. Re:Logical conclusion by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually vmware and HP have a product that turns OFF hosts when they are not needed. When load on the existing hosts in the pool starts to get high they spin up spare hosts and vmotion stuff off to them, then when the workload slows down they vmotion them back and turn off hosts. Very cool way to save power during non-peak times in a large datacenter.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    51. Re:Logical conclusion by afidel · · Score: 1

      You're confusing energy and temperature. There is a hell of a lot more energy in a given volume of heated water then an equivalent volume of air so the comparison about the air getting cooler faster isn't a good comparison to what the GP is talking about.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    52. Re:Logical conclusion by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually it's easier to use a high level algorithm to save power then it is to optimize code to save it. As I talked about elsewhere HP and VMWare have a product for ESX that will consolidate the load to a few hosts during slow times and turn off hosts that aren't needed. No amount of code optimizing is going to save as much power as turning the server off where it's literally drawing a watt or two waiting for a WoL signal.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    53. Re:Logical conclusion by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Enwave Energy Corporation in Toronto, Ontario is already doing this. They have a 59K ton integrated district cooling plant using deep lake water as an energy sink. Chicago is thinking of doing something similar with the huge volume of water they already draw from the lake for other purposes. The Toronto project probably kept another coal plant from coming online because it's got a cooling capacity of 207MW which would require about 400MW of electricity between transmission losses and cooling system inefficiencies.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    54. Re:Logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use the right tool for the job. For some definition of "right".

      Most of the time, there is no single "right" tool for the job. A hundred people of equivalent skill would probably choose 5-10 completely different combinations of solutions in your position.

      I was a click away from modding you down, but I got over myself. Now you get over yourself.
    55. Re:Logical conclusion by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Perhaps data centers should look to solar and wind power as sources of renewable moderate cost (amortize the investment and maintenance). Or you could establish in Quebec Canada, where electricity is low low low cost and the James Bay is the watershed feeding dam generated electricity. The majority of Quebec homes are electrically heated, even when temperatures drop to -30C (around 25below F. Thats how much low cost electricity is available. It would be nice to use geothermal storage of the excessive heat from summer running for recycling in winters.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    56. Re:Logical conclusion by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1
      Umm, no. I said "Unless you're running a hugely complex ASP.net application, in which case, it doesn't work so well." Just because you can't do $latest-greatest-fad-of-the-month with your application, doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.

      As always with Slashdot, a car example: I can't tow anything with my Corvette, nor is it that fuel efficient, but it still works.

    57. Re:Logical conclusion by kesuki · · Score: 1

      I'd like to point something out, heat islands.

      If we're putting the hot water back in the oceans directly, we create 'heat islands' it takes 4x as much energy to cool water by 1 degree, so for ever 4 degrees you cool the 'air' you're 'heating' the water by 1 degree. if the temperature is 110F and you have the air set to 70F that means your water is going up 10 degrees. if Everyone in LA does this then for a 5-10 mile Island off the coast of LA is going to go up By 10-20 degrees, depending on how well that water moves back out into the sea.

      But water cooling does save a vast amount of electricity, although personally the only places where I Know such a heat island wouldn't affect the environment are on the great lakes, since they freeze solid every winter, they never truly get warm in the summer. In this case, heat islands might actually cause more aquatic life to live in the great lakes... and a city the size of Toronto can save about 400 MWs of electricity by using water cooling, so the real energy savings are there in water cooling, but their system has problems they didn't anticipate, at one point in the line (2 actually) they have giant centrifuges to separate cold and hot water! if they weren't already saving tons of energy, those giant centrifuges would be eating energy like no tomorrow.

      the oceans in general already have hot and cold water currents, but they only freeze near the poles... and the deep ocean life are adjusted to the levels of heat that exist there... I'm still standing by the creating of massive 'heat islands' in the oceans near major cities would harm aquatic life. smaller sized projects might make little difference, though. As i recall, nuclear power plants that use the ocean water for cooling are only allowed to change the water temp of their outflow line to go up by one or 2 degrees, due to environmental concerns.. pumping enough water to only heat the ocean by 1 or 2 degrees, would be hard for a massive city wide program in LA but smaller cities might be able to build effective systems that don't overly heat the water, and even in LA a few small projects rather than a massive citywide program might work fine.

  2. Equity or efficiency? by athloi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Confronted with distributing food rations to hungry orphans, people would rather be fair than efficient, even if it means letting some of the food go to waste, a US study shows.

    But the tests demonstrated that most people preferred equity in distributing food -- that all the hungry mouths got fed equally -- rather than an efficiency that perhaps meant that one orphan got almost nothing but also that no food went to waste.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080509/ts_alt_afp/ussciencepsychologymoralityresearch_080509123210


    This problem shows up in many places.
    1. Re:Equity or efficiency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fundamental question is, what is it you are optimizing for?

      Pick your priorities, then optimize.

    2. Re:Equity or efficiency? by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      Not that I RTFPaper, but hungry orphans is a bad example if you're trying to show that people are irrational. The objective is to have as few starving orphans as possible, so trading three fewer starving orphans for 300 fewer thanksgiving-stuffed-full orphans is still a win, even if a lot of food is wasted in the process.

      Now if there was research showing that people would rather throw food away than give it as an unfair surplus to some of the orphans, THAT would be news.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
  3. Another Scheduling Flamewar by dsginter · · Score: 4, Funny

    I don't think that we should go down this road again - why don't we talk about religion or politics, instead?

    --
    More
    1. Re:Another Scheduling Flamewar by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Mix them up. Which candidate should be scheduling the moving van to the White House?

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    2. Re:Another Scheduling Flamewar by spikedvodka · · Score: 1

      NoNoNo... you forgot the "religion" aspect.

      Which candidate should be praying to which diety for good traffic for the moving van to the White House

      --
      I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
    3. Re:Another Scheduling Flamewar by mcmonkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't think that we should go down this road again - why don't we talk about religion or politics, instead?

      Can we just stick to politics? Why spoil a perfectly good Friday with a vi vs emacs debate?

    4. Re:Another Scheduling Flamewar by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Good Friday was a month or so ago

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    5. Re:Another Scheduling Flamewar by SpacePirate20X6 · · Score: 1

      Maybe according to your emacs calendar...

  4. s/lots of/some/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Specially, where load involves lots of concurrent power-consuming TCP connections
    ...But apparently not enough to saturate all available servers.
  5. Mod parent up ! by Adolf+Hitroll · · Score: 0, Funny

    For he's got a life and doesn't focus on computer stuff.
    I salute you, Sir.

    --
    Smile, don't click...
  6. Overloading the intarweb by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 1

    Specially, where load involves lots of concurrent power-consuming TCP connections
    I really don't think all those connection management packets add up to much wattage flowing through the tubes... On a serious note good hardware load balancing solutions can already aggregate traffic onto tiers of servers, adding more as the load rises, and minimize the number of backend TCP connections to the servers by doing things like multiplexing/pipelining.
  7. Managed power supplies... by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just switch them off...

    If the load on your boxes is below a threshold, remove one of them from the load balance list, wait for connections to end, or migrate the processes off to another machine, and switch it off. When the load is above a certain threshold, you power on an additional node, configure it for whichever service and add it to the load balancer.

    Oh come on people, you call yourselves engineers? It really isn't that difficult.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Managed power supplies... by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the load on your boxes is below a threshold, remove one of them from the load balance list, wait for connections to end, or migrate the processes off to another machine, and switch it off. When the load is above a certain threshold, you power on an additional node, configure it for whichever service and add it to the load balancer.


      Sure, that's not too difficult to do. But it does add complexity. And it does mean your system can't respond to increased load as quickly, as you have to wait for your additional boxes to boot up. If the increased load is predictable, you can anticipate, but that adds more complexity. It doesn't save you on capital costs as you still have to size your power and A/C systems for peak load. Powering the boxes on and off may shorten their lives or reduce their reliability. The question isn't whether it can be done; it's whether it's worth it.
    2. Re:Managed power supplies... by iamhigh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agreed. How hard is it to understand that if you use 50% load on 10 servers, you will probably be using more energy than a 100% load on 5 servers. It's common sense when you realize that a 50% load != 50% power consumption.

      I am starting to think I didn't miss much by not going to a big name computer science school.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    3. Re:Managed power supplies... by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      If you have a fairly "dumb" system where you're running a webapp across an array of web servers, and you have one DB server, adding the complexity to save power is probably not worth it. If you're Google, Amazon, etc. and your power bill every year is bigger than the real estate bill for some medium sized companies, than you probably should be integrating power efficiency architecture into your process somewhere.

    4. Re:Managed power supplies... by Locutus · · Score: 1

      or have the "stand-by" system(s) in a sleep mode so they can be ready for the extra load more quickly. This would trigger bringing in/powering on another box which would go into "stand-by" mode if load keeps going up.

      it would be silly to have all your boxen running at 5% load because of a dumb load balancing scheme. Energy wasteful to say the least.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    5. Re:Managed power supplies... by barzok · · Score: 1

      What you describe is more closely related to electrical engineering than computer science.

    6. Re:Managed power supplies... by AikonMGB · · Score: 1

      You're right, it isn't very hard to understand. Fortunately for them, there's more to it than just understanding that simple fact. Say you want to bring in a system like this.. what are the optimum values for server load to balance speed and energy efficiency? What are the costs involved with bringing hardware on and offline all the time?

      They are performing research to gain further insight and data accumulation, something that takes much more than just "oh sure, I know power consumption != load."

      Aikon-

    7. Re:Managed power supplies... by kesuki · · Score: 1

      an efficient operating system should have 0% load on the CPU when it's doing nothing so the power savings circuitry on chip should be able to power it down to nothing, the HD as well should be able to spun down with no disc activity, and modern fan controls can spin down the fans to 'power saving mode'

      I mean of course this means you're not using windows... but from personal experience, when i switched one of my computers from windows to FreeBSD (and this was in 1996) i was saving over $5 a month in electric bills! just from switching OSes, at the time i never shut off any of my computers ever, because boot ups i felt took too long.

      now modern CPUs and fans and power supplies all have great power saving technologies.. I imagine now switching a 24/7 PC from windows to linux/freebsd would save me $10-15 a month in electric bills.

    8. Re:Managed power supplies... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much easier to do if your workload is vuirtualized.

      Distributed Power Management

    9. Re:Managed power supplies... by PenguiN42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh come on people, you call yourselves engineers? It really isn't that difficult.

      You'd be surprised how much of engineering is taking "obvious" ideas and banging your head against them for months/years trying to get all the details to work out right.

      --
      The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence was false.
    10. Re:Managed power supplies... by afidel · · Score: 1

      The only part of a server that I would be significantly worried about during power cycles is drives and fans, and with boot from network/SAN that's no longer a concern so you might have to service fans more often, with decent servers they have redundant sets so it's just some additional scheduled maintenance, not a big cost next to turning loads of servers off.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  8. RR is not load-balancing! by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 1
    It doesn't take any account of the load on each box. If one is dying, it will still hand it, say half the work.

    Load balancing is where you actually check the load and then make an informed decision about where to allocate the work.

    OK, rant over. Now back to your scheduled programming.

    --
    "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
    1. Re:RR is not load-balancing! by slashkitty · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you consider load. If server process load is your load that your balancing, then yes you have to check that load to balance it. If connections, bandwidth or people are your load, then round robin is best. For balancing something like serving static files, round robin is probably faster, cheaper and more reliable.

      --
      -- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
    2. Re:RR is not load-balancing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, you can use a different definition of load balancing to the rest of the world.

      But everyone else understands that round robin and random selection are the two simple algorithms for load balancing - that do a bad job in many cases but they still do a job...

    3. Re:RR is not load-balancing! by mikkelm · · Score: 1

      They aren't simple load balancing concepts. They're simple load -distribution- concepts.

      A Round Robin balancing could put ten fat people in one elevator, and ten midgets in another, should they arrive in the correct order. That gives you one elevator crashing, and the other working fine. That's not balancing.

  9. IT discovers boiler scheduling by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Operators of multiple steam boilers have been dealing with this problem for a century. The number of boilers fired up is adjusted with demand, with the need for some demand prediction because it takes time to get steam up. This was done manually for decades; now it's often automated.

    The same thing applies to multiple HVAC compressors. Usually there's a long-term round-robin switch so that the order of compressor start is rotated on a daily or weekly basis to equalize wear.

    More and more, IT is becoming like stationary engineering.

    1. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by somersault · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Similar idea to modern fuel efficient engines shutting down cylinders when you're idling as well (probably oversimplifying there but you know what I mean)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by russotto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Operators of multiple steam boilers have been dealing with this problem for a century. The number of boilers fired up is adjusted with demand, with the need for some demand prediction because it takes time to get steam up. This was done manually for decades; now it's often automated.


      Which, alas, won't stop someone from patenting it with respect to servers. Even if it's already been done with computers too.

      Incidentally, I've seen descriptions of currently available HVAC control systems for office buildings which takes into account the season, the direction the building faces, the thermal mass of the building, demand, etc, and even learns some of these parameters while running, rather than forcing the installer to calculate them. But every office building I've worked in has had crappy systems which amount to running the compressors on a timer and using individually controlled dampers to provide even cooling (poorly). It seems that we have the technology, but not the will (or the capital) to use them.
    3. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by dwater · · Score: 1

      Similar issues in electricity generation too. They have big (coal/nucular) power stations to satisfy the base demand in electricity and then less efficient gas turbine stations that can fire up (and down) quickly to meet the peak demands.

      It just seems too obvious for there to not be a solution to this in computing already, let alone it requiring a study to come to this conclusion.

      This being so suggests there's more to the story than the summary itself suggests; but to test that I'd have to follow all the links...na...I'll just post my opinion and be on my way.

      --
      Max.
    4. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Clearly the manufacturer of those systems needs to pay a senator or two to introduce legislation mandating higher energy efficiency in new installations.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by j79zlr · · Score: 1

      I am a HVAC consulting engineer and I think you are overestimating the complexity of the control systems. The thermal mass, demand, exposure direction, etc are all used in calculating the system and its size, but none of that is really used in controlling the system. What you would typically use is a VAV system [zones with dampers] with its own thermostat. The thermostat in that zone will control the damper position and any reheat if it is provided at that terminal. The main air handler will usually control the cooling or heating coils dependent on the discharge air temperature. You can have an increase in complexity in the system if you are using VFD with your fans based on differential pressure and CO2 sensors in zones to control the outside air intake, but for the most part it is still the relatively simple idea of maintaining a set discharge air temperature and cycling compressors, chillers, boilers or gas.

      --
      I'm not not licking toads.
    6. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the vendor Cassatt if you are interested in this

    7. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by russotto · · Score: 1

      I am a HVAC consulting engineer and I think you are overestimating the complexity of the control systems. The thermal mass, demand, exposure direction, etc are all used in calculating the system and its size, but none of that is really used in controlling the system. What you would typically use is a VAV system [zones with dampers] with its own thermostat.
      That's exactly my point. There exist (at least on paper; maybe they're vaporware) systems which DO use more than that for controlling the system. But they aren't popular. So instead we have the zones with dampers on individually controlled thermostats, which work "good enough" but never really well.
    8. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by j79zlr · · Score: 1

      Zoned systems do work really well as long as they are installed and balanced properly and they save a lot of energy. Why would you try and control a system by predicting what its temperature should be when you just have a room sensors which are inexpensive that let you know exactly what the temperature is. The more complicated systems that we design use CO2 sensors to monitor the occupancy and adjust the outside air brought into the system by maintaining a setpoint of 400-1000ppm instead of the code requirement which is independent of actual occupancy. I have also installed systems where the entire building had a keycard system, when the occupant of the office swipes their card, it will change the setpoint in their office from unoccupied to occupied, but that is still done with VAV boxes. You can use dual duct systems where you have a hot deck and a cold deck and mix at the terminal depending on the thermostat setting. Those have better controllability but waste much more energy.

      --
      I'm not not licking toads.
    9. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by russotto · · Score: 1

      Zoned systems do work really well as long as they are installed and balanced properly and they save a lot of energy.
      I've never worked in an office (with a zoned system) where it isn't often too cold, too hot, or both (in different parts of the building). Tenants resort to fans to blow the air from the cold part to the hot part, attempting to make up for the system's failures.
    10. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are so way behind. The problem is that buildings are generally old.

    11. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by j79zlr · · Score: 1

      That sounds more like a constant volume system and not a zoned system. If it is a zoned system, unfortunately the balancing contractors are at fault most of the time. If they only go through and set the circuit setters and balancing dampers once instead of doing a couple times, the most remote zone will not be balanced correctly with decreasing error up to the the first zone.

      --
      I'm not not licking toads.
    12. Re:IT discovers boiler scheduling by tc9 · · Score: 1

      The problem is in the word properly designed. Most HVAC systems aren't designed at all. THey are sketched in 2D on peices of paper that are separate from the pieces of paper that have, say, plumbing. If the plumber get's their first, then the ductwork needs to go around the plumbing.

      Even if it can be built as designed, the 2D designs are not so good, usually. Most commercial buildings simple oversize all compressors by a factor of two, and figure that brute force will overcome their design failings.

      Building Information Modelling (BIM), including Building Modelling (3D objects rather than lines) allows actual design of the systems, and reduces the "plumbers got their first" problem," but it is still rarely applied to mechanical systems.

      And the controls? Well the controls are still designed by the low-bid guy standing on a mud-bucket in the hallway. Russotto is spot on, we know how to do this. We have for a long time. Even initial capital costs are not that much different. We fail to do so out of laziness, ineptness, general innattention, or perhaps an over siloed business buying from over-siloed designers and contractors.

      Now that begins to sounds like most IT projects.

      Most communications with these systems are detail, not performance oriented. This effectively blocks out interactions with any but domain experts. This makes the operation of these systems invisible and uncontrollable, as far as the tenants are concerned, and leads to these systems genrally poor operation and design.

      SNMP, mentioned above,is a lousy non-abstract model for inter-system communications; it requires too much knowledge of what the information in the MIBs means for casual integration and easy integration across domains. Even so, SNMP is about a 100 times better than the protocols that built systems use to communicate outside their domains.

      This is changing. oBIX is opening up enterprise interactions with building systems. Data Centers, in particular, are beginning to establish interactions between Operations, Cooling Capacity, and Power Supply and Reliability, etc. TheGreenGrid is trying to establish general models for this. OpenADR is the beginning of direct power grid / data center communications.

      THe biggest problem is that building systems have nothing that in the IT world, would be recongnized as a system architecture. This means that those who interact with them are expected to know too much. IT guys didn't happen to choose HVAC for their careers. The Admin Assistant has even less interest.

      There is an interesting project over at ONTOLOG trying to define the abstractions to discusss what services are performed by building systems. Those services will make possible easy intgration of building systems into data centers and to office applications, in the same way that abstractions make USB keys and external disks identical objects to the user interface.

  10. Pound, haproxy by QuoteMstr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We're running a no-frills OpenBSD load balancer at work. Right now, it's running Pound (the quickest thing we could get up once traffic spiked a few weeks ago), but we're considering other approaches too. haproxy's load balancing knobs look interesting. It looks like you can configure it so the maximum number of clients scales with the current load. The problem is that there's no feedback system.

    Some kind of loadavg-based, or even response-time, feedback mechanism would be great! Pound has that (I believe), but since Pound requires downtime for every configuration change, we want to move away from it ASAP.

    1. Re:Pound, haproxy by Fweeky · · Score: 2, Informative

      pen can perform some configuration changes on the fly using an optional control service; you can set server weightings at least. It's also event driven rather than the thread-per-connection model I believe pound uses, so it should scale better.

    2. Re:Pound, haproxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OpenBSD has relayd, use it.

    3. Re:Pound, haproxy by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      keepalived.

      --
      Deleted
    4. Re:Pound, haproxy by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

      keepalived/relayd still has no feedback-based weighting mechanism.

  11. News, cluster not efficient. by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    more obvious statements

    A cluster of computers doing a job is less efficient that a single server doing the same job. Adding to that having a cluster creates more points of failure, and more overhead communicating between those statements.

    If you have the option to run the DB & the application on the same server, try to do so.

    1. Re:News, cluster not efficient. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More failure points, yep so if you have 20 servers it doesn't hurt as much when you loose one or two.

      Less efficient is completely debatable.

      Sure its less efficient to mirror a harddrive but its a lot less efficient loosing all the data and spending days restoring!

  12. Shutdown Shortens Life? by iamhigh · · Score: 1

    Powering the boxes on and off may shorten their lives or reduce their reliability. I thought this was debunked a while ago?
    --
    No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    1. Re:Shutdown Shortens Life? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      We usually see 0.3-1% failure rates on servers in a data center powerdown (scheduled, soft shutdown). Bigger issues with blades and high power 1U servers, fewer with midrange and mainframe equipment. Hard drive and power supply failures are most common, generally attributed to thermal shock on re-start.

      Would love to see any information that can debunk so we can hit the equipment manufacturers up for damages...

    2. Re:Shutdown Shortens Life? by iamhigh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I bet what I am thinking of was about desktop computers. I shut all my desktops down after using them, and the laptops get put on standby, hibernate, and shutdown multiple times a day.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    3. Re:Shutdown Shortens Life? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The failure mechanism is thermal fatigue - things moving when temperatures change and cracks opening up. If you don't have a large temperature difference, have a good design and don't expect a life of more than a decade then it isn't likely to be a problem.

    4. Re:Shutdown Shortens Life? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I would assume that if you did two powerdowns in a row, the 2nd time you brought everything back up you would see very few (if any) failures as the machines that survived the first powerdown would likely survive a second. I would assume that if the machines were regularly powered down, instead of seeing a number of them go in a clump like you observe, you would have a spread out stream of occasional failures. The question becomes, under which scenario are you losing the most machines in a period of time? Not to mention which is more convienent to deal with - I would rather deal with losing a machine a week than have to deal with 52 suddenly going out once per year (for example).

  13. Very cool, but obvious now that we see it by mlwmohawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a very cool idea, and I don't think it will affect usability too much either. As long as the load balancer keeps tabs on system loading, via snmp or something, it can turn on/off machines based on need.

    Assuming your system scales smoothly, i.e. gets proportionally slower as the system load starts to exceed processing capacity. For example, a process will always take 100ms as long as there is CPU time to spare, but once the CPU gets to 100% utilization, you have to start time slicing more processes, that 100ms starts to be 150ms. The load balancer can spin up a new server an start bring down the processing times.

    This is an obvious solution to an obvious problem, but until now, we've just never had to examine it.

  14. If you understand complexity in the first place by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1
    It isn't a problem. By that, I mean... Watch where you put your state...

    Powering the boxes on and off may shorten their lives or reduce their reliability. Who cares, they are disposable 300 boxes. When it dies you take it out and put another one in it's place, send the old one back to the manufacturer to be replaced under warranty.

    --
    Deleted
  15. Redundant systems ar not supposed to be efficient. by Atrox666 · · Score: 1

    Redundant systems are not efficient? You don't say.
    Redundant systems are redundantly redundant..That's why they are robust.
    This message brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.

  16. Well, duh... by JamesP · · Score: 2, Funny

    Everybody knows that it should be Round Batman, it is soo much better :P

    --
    how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
  17. Wow, you meen Green Data Centers? by colinmcnamara · · Score: 1

    This is not a new idea. VMware is making a killing around this same concept of consolidating load from many servers onto fewer servers. People tend to forget that an idle server still uses 50% of its peak power utilization. There is a good write up here on Green Data Center

    --
    Colin McNamara - CCIE #18233 "The difficult we do immediately, the impossible just takes a little longer"
    1. Re:Wow, you meen Green Data Centers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      That's not what this is. This isn't consolidating and reducing the number of servers, period like VMWare. This is for setups where there's like 100 machines to handle peak load, but the rest of the day they'd only need 20. So, they'll turn off maybe 75 machines (keeping 5 spares in case there's a little spike) and fire them up during peak time only. VMWare is great for this kind of thing since you can just shuttle VMs around, but this wouldn't be bad to do with a conventional setup either -- you'd remove machines from the round-robin scheduler, wait for connections to that box to finish, and shut it down. When load gets high, send the machines a network power-on message and when it's booted add it to the scheduler.

                  This is one instance where those servers that take like 10 minutes to boot are a disadvantage... (Netservers and the like, which do an extensive RAM test and scrub, carefully spin up HDs one at a time, probe a bunch of SCSI busses whether they have anything on them or not, etc. etc...)

                On a smaller scale, the Linux kernel is beginning to support this -- one of the scheduler options now, instead of spreading out jobs to all cores, will schedule to ONE core (allowing others to run in deepest power-saving mode) until that cores ~100% busy, then power the next core up, and so on.

  18. Already productized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The general approach of stacking load efficiently to minimize power consumption is not a new concept. There's already a commercial implementation of this idea: VMware Distributed Power Management (part of DRS: http://www.vmware.com/products/vi/vc/drs.html). It will move virtual machines around to the minimum number of servers, then power down unneeded machines. When the workload increases, DPM will automatically bring the powered-down machines back online.

    (This is not meant to disparage the paper, which does a good job of measuring the various trade-offs involved in power management, with a focus on network-related issues.)

  19. BigIP by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 2, Interesting

    BigIP's can use round robin and use prioritizing, in other words one server receives the most connections over the others. So how is this new?

  20. Scientific discoveries 2.0 by heroine · · Score: 1

    Amazing that all these discoveries can now be repeated with Green Tech phrasing & sound like they're new. Now a new discovery. Busy waits R not energy efficient. Where's my nobel prize?

  21. Mobile OSes have been doing this for years by CockMonster · · Score: 1

    So yes, there's nothing to see here, move on!

  22. The real question is what "fully loaded" means by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only thing that makes this hard is a metric of what "fully loaded" means for a server. With generators and boilers, you have a single number which represents output, and you know what the capacity of each unit is, so you know when to start up the next unit. Computer servers are more difficult to characterize.

    So you have to measure some values of server load, convert that to a single number, and use it for load measurement purposes. Then it all works just like boiler scheduling.

    You don't even need to do much advance planning, as you have to do with boilers and generators, since you can usually start up another server in a minute or so. It takes hours to fire up a big boiler, so you need serious prediction capability.

    (The classic power company approach was a chart recorder recording system load. Every day, somebody took the day's load graph and cut out a piece of cardboard to match. The cardboard pieces were accumulated in a rack, and the result was a 3D load graph for the year. It looks like a mountain range. There's an Internet Archive film showing this. That's a worthwhile exercise for your server farm, and you can probably do it without glue and scissors today. I've seen some of Amazon's server load graphs, which have a huge peak entering the Xmas buying season. In fact, the real reason Amazon is selling "cloud computing" is that their plant is sized for the holiday season and 80% idle the rest of the year.)

  23. Load Balancing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take a load off Fannie, take a load for free;
    Take a load off Fannie, And (and) (and) you can put the load right on me.

  24. Could apply to CPUs as well by bill_kress · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think it's probably simplistic to simply distribute a load to all cores of a CPU evenly. Although asymmetrical might be tougher, I could see a system with one low-power always-on core to deal with system requests and organization (Maybe even low enough power to remain on during a suspend), One to handle all GUI threads and interact with the GPU on a private bus, a couple normal cores to handle typical user threading, one of which doesn't come on until the first is like 50% loaded, and one or two high-speed high-power cores that run all-out when the system is plugged in and needs them for intensive processing.

    It would take some targeted software design to take advantage of this, but I think we could be looking at a moores law style increase in power...

    1. Re:Could apply to CPUs as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux brings you sched_mc_power_savings,
      # echo 1 >| /sys/devices/system/cpu/sched_mc_power_savings

  25. Soccer moms and scheduling. by viking80 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    14 soccer moms are taking the team of 14 kids to a game. They have two options:
    A. Spread the kids among all the cars, and drive all the cars (14 cars)
      or
    B. Fill up a car, and send off. Repeat until done. (6 cars)

    What is more energy efficient?

    Soccer moms have solved this without statistical analysis or engine torque curves.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
    1. Re:Soccer moms and scheduling. by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Parent post has it all.
      Car analogy? Check.
      Soccer Moms? Check. Check. (no mention of how many are single though)

      But... a lot of soccer moms don't care. They're busy with their other kids and errands too (each server runs more than just apache), so they want the flexibility of driving their own car. Show me a website where the hardware is designed to be energy efficient, and I'll see a site that can't handle a good slashdotting.

    2. Re:Soccer moms and scheduling. by wombert · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I believe your calculations are wrong. It's understandable, though, since soccer parenting is a fairly unique branch of mathematics.

      First off, you're assuming a standard car with 1 adult driver and 4 passengers; instead, you should be using an SUV with a capacity of 6-8, including driver.
      (Result: 4-5 vehicles)

      Next, you have to consider that not all parents will attend every game. The primary reason that soccer moms drive SUVs is that they must occasionally transport several of their child's teammates to a game (or, worse, to practice!) when their turn comes up in the rotation. Therefore, you only need enough SUVs to cover the number of child passengers, and the number of adults will follow.
      (Result: 2-3 vehicles)

      However, you might recall that the other reason that soccer moms drive SUVs is that they often have additional children that have not yet reach sports playing age, and must be transported along with the parent, in a car seat (which, in the case of a standard car, would reduce passenger capacity by at least 20% by rendering the back center seat useless.) Assume that approximately 1 in 3 soccer moms have an additional child to transport, and the child adds to the overall passenger count.
      (Result: 3-4 vehicles)

      Finally, realizing that the overloaded schedule and priorities of child + parent create scheduling conflicts, it is impossible to get optimal performance. At least 1 child per SUV will be late, leaving a seat empty and requiring another parent with car to tranport them.
      (Result: 6-8 vehicles)

      The result is a range of possible values, but your initial calculation of 6 vehicles is optimistic at best.

      --
      Did I say overlords? I meant protectors.
    3. Re:Soccer moms and scheduling. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Soccer moms driving cars? Where do you live? Around here, soccer moms drive minivans and SUVs, and can get 14 kids to the game in 2-3 vehicles!

      Besides, assuming 3 kids per car (Soccer kids are either old enough to sit in the front, or squeeze in the back, aren't they?) wouldn't 5 cars be plenty? ;-)

  26. Re:Redundant systems ar not supposed to be efficie by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

    Load balancing is typically used primarily for performance and scaling (active+active+active ...), not redundancy (active+passive). Better availability is more of a side-effect.

    HA clustering typically involves redundant, highly resilient nodes with a high level of internal redundancy, tightly coupled, often in active/passive roles. The idea is to minimize the likelihood of failure, even given a higher cost.

    Load balancing configurations typically rely on many active nodes of inexpensive hardware with minimal if any internal redundancy (power supplies, etc), so that although the likelyhood of failed nodes is significant, the cost of replacing a failed node is minimal.

    --
    I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
  27. New Slashdot Headline Needed by perlith · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Round Robin Scheduling Not Power-Efficient when using Windows Live Messenger"

    RTFA, in the abstract, "In this paper, we characterize unique properties, performance, and power models of connection servers, based on a real data trace collected from the deployed Windows Live Messenger."

    The research itself appears pretty solid. I'd be interested if they publish a followup paper where the model was based off of a variety of applications which utilize round-robin, not just one.

  28. Like this guy? by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

    I'm waiting for the first company to put a data center a few hundred feet under water, where the water temp is low. You'd be surrounded by the worlds biggest heat sink. The environmentalists would have a hissy fit but that's never stopped industry before, and of course you could argue that you are saving electricty on cooling.
    Here's a homebrew prototype. Wonder if it has sprung a leak yet?
    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  29. extirpater by extirpater · · Score: 1

    Texas electric company will hate this.

  30. Cooling.current == Server.current by cabazorro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here is the solution. In the winter run your web farm in the North hemisphere. In the winter migrate to the South hemisphere. Run it in basements of large apartment complex. Charge for the heating. Heating oil is going up the roof.

    --
    - these are not the droids you are looking for -
  31. bullshit. by robi5 · · Score: 1

    the future belongs to parallel execution, more threads, lower clock. Today's chips will be considered overclocked. Compare a chip with a brain. More processors with lower performance each will beat a few "overclocked" processors. I'm talking about the future, not the current crappy power management.

  32. HP VMware VDI by buttle2000 · · Score: 0
    I've had the (bad)luck to attend two HP presentations of their Virtual Desktop Infraestructure.
    It made me sick.

    After all we've learnt about sharing server resources for desktops from the people at LTSP, HP turn around and sell a setup where each user gets their own virtual OS. During the presentation they laughed at/looked down on linux and instead spoke abount XP and Vista.

    But really, how many instances of Vista could you get up and running on each box? Not very many at all I think.

    So, you've got this big mother f*cking cluster serving a Vista per user who in turn run the remote client on ... a thin client? Maybe, but I'd bet most would be runnning a windows on their local PC too, you know, you just can't survive without multimedia and local devices in the office.

    Add that to the HP and VMware licences you'd be paying.
    And then add on the hardware costs. I can see why HP wants to sell the idea. One nice fat HP server / 5 users?. That's good business.

    Environmental issues are not important to these people.

    1. Re:HP VMware VDI by afidel · · Score: 1

      Yeah VDI is a solution looking for a problem from what I can tell. If you want to have thin workstations then go with Citrix/TS and actually get some freaking load on the boxes. My worst Citrix servers host 15 users per box and that's for a huge RAM hogging app, and I have plans this year to use XenServer to do 4 to 1 consolidation on those by adding ram to the blades (maintaining a separate Citrix image using Enterprise for this app is too intensive in manpower and QA time).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  33. The the AC says by Burz · · Score: 1

    ...you set necessary goals and then find the most efficient way(s) to go about them.

    OTOH I think the kind of study summarized by the Yahoo link gives science a bad name in human rights circles. In this case they treated a necessity as if it were a luxury where efficiency could become the paramount consideration. So we now know about a bit of human nature within an either/or false dichotomy (which is not very useful), plus we have the nasty suggestion that feeding everyone simply won't do from an efficiency standpoint.

    If the researcher wanted to be logically consistent with the choices they offer, s/he probably should have an option for distributing food among farmers only. Letting the rest of society starve would qualify as exceedingly efficient by this study's criteria, but I suspect such options would have thrown the author's foolishness into high relief.

  34. It's new because it's smarter by Steve+Hamlin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More smarts, I think.

    Does your setup allocate ZERO connections to certain servers over some length time, which are set up to reduce energy use upon such zero connections? If not, this looks like it might help.

    They're claiming real-world energy efficiency gains, so it looks like it's an improvement somehow.

    I would assume it's because this now adds dynamic adjustment, which could be based on total system-stack metrics of peak_load_capability, energy_minimization, acceptable_response_time, etc. Something that seems to be lacking in the current load-balancing system that you describe.

    Future:
    - Allow for tuning based on diverse hardware, each with different energy and load capability profiles.
    - Smart managing of a large population of these systems, based on varying load.
    - Add real-time upstream energy cost data into the mix
    - Dynamic scheduling of administrative tasks based on energy efficiency vs. hard deadlines.
    - If energy starts becoming a significant cost of hosting, go back to selling system time based, in part, on total energy used - track CPU, disk, network energy requirements by watt/hr, by user. Add those to account plans, side-by-side with Mb/s and GB/month. Serving .cn? Host your site out of a data center in Iceland and take advantage of cheap, midnight power!

    1. Re:It's new because it's smarter by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

      Does your setup allocate ZERO connections to certain servers over some length time, which are set up to reduce energy use upon such zero connections? If not, this looks like it might help. F5's BigIP, the load balancer in question, doesn't specifically allocate ZERO connections, your right about that. Although F5 does allow for allot of flexibility in load balancing, you can separate out traffic, ie http and https to go to two separate servers. This could approximate your zero connections. When your talking zero connections though, as this algorithm suggest, whats the latency? I can't help think taking time for the load balancer to establish sessions (most likely in the thousands) on the fly when it's needed. BigIP does allow for peak load and acceptable response time, these are utilized by health checks using Http Get's to determine response times, typically, they can use a variety of methods though. F5 doesn't specifically have anything to manage energy efficiencies, I believe what they do have can come pretty close to it.
    2. Re:It's new because it's smarter by Steve+Hamlin · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking that this is more like:

      (1)(a) "allocate all connections to servers $EnergyEfficient_1 thru $EnergyEfficient_9 (in a particular order due to their decreasing "EnergyStar rating") as long as their average load is less than 80%"
      (b) "meanwhile, PowerMonsterServers are in [no-op, CPUhalt, powerd'ed down, spindown, standy, Wake-on-LAN] mode, thus saving total energy over having all of these machines idle at 15% load and consuming 100W each "
      (c) "then if total systems load >95% and avg. response time sucks, wake up PowerMonsters to handle during short time they're needed, then powered down agin."

      as opposed to

      (2) my impression of your comment, which is that the F5 does load montioring of the downstream servers and can allocate/stop_allocating new connections based on feedback from the downstream servers about how it's doing under the currently_allocated load. This results in a dynamic adding/removing of servers from the available pool, but doesn't do so based on a "how much net load do we need?; let's only turn on the minimal $/load unit that can supply at least 1200 bogomips, for now; keep all other machines in S3 Wake-on-LAN mode"

      Granted, under loads that are not TOO volatile, with a system that is made up of energy-homogeneous hardware, you should be able to spec your server infrastucture so that a good load-balancer, like the one you mentioned, does a pretty good job with equalizing load that results in minimal wasted Kw/hr on CPU loops and HALTs.

      Better yet, virtualize the entire load-balanced system, or at least all of the component machines, and leverage up one more time - you should be able to keep driving down total wasted resources (KW/h of non-productive bogomips) if you keep consolidating.