Total Phone and Email Database Proposed In UK

mishmash writes "The Times of London is reporting a proposal for a massive government database holding details of all phone calls, emails, and time spent on the Internet. This is to be justified as being 'part of the fight against crime and terrorism.' Quoting: 'Internet service providers and telecoms companies would hand over the records to the Home Office under plans put forward by officials.' If you want to write to representatives to let them know your views, contact details are available at Write to Them." UK telecoms are already required to keep records of phone calls and text messages for 12 months, accessible by subpoena; the requirement is already slated to expand to records of Internet usage, emails, and VoIP. This new proposal aims to centralize all that information in a single database in the Home Office.

Comments

Mr. Orwell!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Mr.Orwell! A telephone call for Mr.Orwell ....

Re:Mr. Orwell!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mr. Orwell can be reached at 1-BIG-BRO-THER. That's 1-984-BRO-THER.

Re:Mr. Orwell!

[caitsith01]

Actually, under this proposal Mr Orwell can be reached by calling pretty much anyone, thanks to the OMNI-CALL system operated by MiniLove.

Simply dial any random number and deliver your message to whoever answers. Give it a little while and the relevant catchwords will be identified and stored in the central database for easy retrieval by unaccountable government drones. 'Correctional' officers will then be dispatched to visit you and 'correct' your views on certain matters.

Re:Mr. Orwell!

[ductonius]

Mr.Orwell! A telephone call for Mr.Orwell ....
Maybe something like this.

Loudspeaker: Paging Mr.Orwell. Mr.Orwell to the nearest white courtesy phone.
Orwell: Hmmm... Ok.... Um... there's a sign here that says 'Courtesy Phone', but the phone is black.
Loudspeaker: No, the courtesy phone is white.
Orwell: No, it's black.
Loudspeaker: It's white.
Orwell: It's black. It's the same color as my suit and watchband.
Loudspeaker: I don't know how you could be so mistaken. It's clearly white.
Orwell: How can you not know your black courtesy phones are black?
Loudspeaker: It's white.
Orwell: It's black.
Loudspeaker: Paging the nearest Civil Protection Team. Civil Protection Team to the nearest white courtesy phone.

Re:Mr. Orwell!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

I am not sure this is so funny. Not so long ago this sort of a joke would be something told with a tone of moral superiority about the old USSR, where the tourists were told, half-in-jest, to speak into the flower arrangements on the hotel table.

Oh how far the mighty have fallen....

And how quickly!

Useless information

[flyingfsck]

What on earth is this going to be good for?

Re:Useless information

[Brian Gordon]

Stopping terrorists...

Re:Useless information

[Finallyjoined!!!]

Huh? Isn't it obvious; so they can lose the entire database in the post.

Re:Useless information

[mikael]

Stock prices for data brokering companies, goverment contractors (HP, EDS), and server manufacturers. Seems more like an attempt to breath life into the UK IT industry to win votes in the home counties rather than anything practical.

Sending all that information to the database system is going to generate just as much traffic as spam generates. How on earth are they going to differentiate between spam with forged E-mail addresses and real E-mail, when they won't have access to the actual message contents?

Sounds Like A Reasonable Proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

But how about a much cheaper and effective method of keeping the UK safe from Teh Terrorists:

1. Stop supporting Israeli terrorism

2. Stop acting the lapdog to the United States rampaging through the Middle East in an effort to secure oil resources and pipelines and wacky Christian end of world judegement day type crazyness.

This is brilliant!

[erroneus]

When doing something that is both unpopular and demonstrably ineffective, the obvious solution is to do more of it. Those clever Brits! A perfect model for the future of U.S. legislation!

Re:This is brilliant!

[Jayjay2]

who needs a patriot act when you have camera's everywhere and anti gun laws that don't stop gun crime.

Their laws seem to do a pretty good job overall:

"The statistics tell us that there are roughly 1.35 gun related homicides per million in the UK and roughly 37.3 per million in the US. This would suggest that you are around 27 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the US."

http://www.scribes-write.co.uk/article/20040421134346697.html

Re:This is brilliant!

[Tim C]

who needs a patriot act when you have camera's everywhere and anti gun laws that don't stop gun crime

Laws don't stop crime, but perhaps you should actually go and look up some statistics on per-capita gun crime in various countries, then decide whether or not the UK has a real problem with it?

We also do not have cameras everywhere - I can't think of a single one in the area of London that I live in. Yes, the centres of the cities and large towns have a lot of cameras, and yes I'm somewhat ambivalent about that, but no they are not "everywhere".

now the only two armed groups in the Uk are the military and the criminals

And the police, and the secret services, and a large number of farmers and other such people who own licensed firearms...

Re:This is brilliant!

[Chrisq]

I am beginning to wonder if Gordon Brown has been paid to sabotage the government by the Conservatives.

awesome

[timmarhy]

enjoy reading my encrypted traffic and voip phone calls.

Re:awesome

[letsief]

Often the fact that you communicated with a certain individual is suspicious enough, especially if encryption was used. You don't necessarily need to know what was said to learn a lot of useful information.

Re:awesome

[John3]

Every month or two I make it a point to send a few long emails encrypted with PGP and with suggestive subject lines like "Schematics for trigger device" and "The Revolution Starts Now" to my Gmail or Hotmail account. The message content is just pasted Chuck Norris jokes, so if someone decides to spend some time and energy breaking the encryption at least they'll have something to read.

Re:awesome

[BitterOak]

enjoy reading my encrypted traffic and voip phone calls. Don't forget that in the UK, you must hand over encryption keys on demand or face jail time. This has been the law for some time over there.

Re:awesome

[AReilly]

enjoy reading my encrypted traffic and voip phone calls. Don't forget that in the UK, you must hand over encryption keys on demand or face jail time. This has been the law for some time over there. And how does that work out for them for https or other common SSL connections like smtp+tls, or imaps, where the keys are generated per-session and then thrown away?

Re:awesome

[i_b_don]

which is actually the interesting part... The more a government pushes monitoring the internet, the more people people will use things like "freenet" for pirating and just a big "FU" to the government. As the use of a "freenet" type of thing increases, the less suspicious encrypted traffic becomes becuase it will be so much more common.

I predict that it'll be a funny side effect of trying to do complete citizen monitoring is that you'll be LESS able to monitor the people the government claims it's trying to monitor. (insert spooky voice: "the terrorists" :que dramatic music)

This is of course, is all bullshit. With the exponentially rising number of bits that are being shoved around the internet these days, it would be trivially easy to hide terrorist instructions in on a bit torrent DL, a usenet post, a youtube video, or a flickr picture. And if you're a really creative terrorist you can even use encryption!

This is all a load of shit and I for one can't believe the UK is actually surpassing the US the "2008 Most Fucked Up Government" award. Have you guys seen what's been happening to the republican assholes who've been running our government? You should do the same with the ruling party over there, except in both cases I think we really should get out the tar and feathers and give them a proper going away party. (BTW, any democrats who are supporting this bullshit in the US should also be tossed out on their asses! I'm not partisan when it comes to spying on your own fucking citizens!)

d

Re:awesome

[mikael]

The number of British nationals emigrating every year to Australia, New Zealand France, Spain and many other countries runs to anywhere between 200K and 700K. Mainly due to increasing crime, increasing taxation, declining standard of living and being treated as second class citizens.

Re:awesome

[Hojima]

enjoy reading my encrypted traffic and voip phone calls. Don't forget that in the UK, you must hand over encryption keys on demand or face jail time. This has been the law for some time over there. What encryption key? I happen to send arbitrary data to all my friends.

Re:awesome

[couchslug]

You'll be sorry when they send Chuck to Gitmo!

Re:awesome

[Boogaroo]

You're going to give the crypto people a real headache as they try to figure out the concealed meaning in the formatting/wording of your jokes.

Not only that, wait 'till someone who wants to move up the ladder starts making up bullshit! It's happened in state-run crime labs before.

Re:awesome

[moderatorrater]

"We're got a problem here, Johnson. If this Chuck Norris device can do even half of what this email claims it can do, we're onto the biggest terrorist plot in history!"

"Agreed. Hopefully he hasn't finished that triggering mechanism or we're all screwed!"

Re:awesome

[Zemran]

Often the fact that you communicated with a certain individual is suspicious enough

Association is a guaranteed way of convicting an innocent person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six

Re:awesome

[cjb658]

This is of course, is all bullshit. With the exponentially rising number of bits that are being shoved around the internet these days, it would be trivially easy to hide terrorist instructions in on a bit torrent DL, a usenet post, a youtube video, or a flickr picture. And if you're a really creative terrorist you can even use encryption!

At least we won't have to worry about making backups anymore.

Re:awesome

[beelsebob]

For those that are going to say they can request the key even if they only believe it's encrypted, you're wrong. They can only request it if they believe you still have the key.

4 (1)...
(2)If any person with the appropriate permission under Schedule 2 believes, on reasonable grounds --
(a)that a key to the protected information is in the possession of any person,
(b)that the imposition of a disclosure requirement in respect of the protected information is--
(i)necessary on grounds falling within subsection (3), or
(ii)necessary for the purpose of securing the effective exercise or proper performance by any public authority of any statutory power or statutory duty,
(c)that the imposition of such a requirement is proportionate to what is sought to be achieved by its imposition, and
(d)that it is not reasonably practicable for the person with the appropriate permission to obtain possession of the protected information in an intelligible form without the giving of a notice under this section,the person with that permission may, by notice to the person whom he believes to have possession of the key, impose a disclosure requirement in respect of the protected information.

Re:awesome

[GrahamCox]

I emigrated from the UK to Australia five years ago, because basically, as one tradesman-type person said to me very succinctly before I left: "Yeah, Don't blame yer mate, it's all fucked, innit?".

And it is. It's not just the government though - it's also overpopulation, and the fact the the average Brit is happy to work all hours for faceless corps who don't give a fuck about them, because they're all up to their eyeballs in mortgage debt (and are led to believe that owning ones own house is the be-all and end-all of existence, so it's all worth it really). Towns are unfriendly and jammed with cars - there are now so many cars you can't move for the fucking things, being used or just parked. Housing estates are horrible hideous anonymous places with bad architecture, built so shoddily and close together that everyone's at each others' throats about the noise and where everyone shuns their neighbours because there is just no fucking privacy anymore. Simple fact - 60 million people and counting simply do not FIT into the British Isles.

People pay insane prices for food and other basic needs, and put up with crap quality because they have gradually forgotten what good quality IS. Supermarkets have taken over every town and turned them all into identikit clones of each other - distinguishable only by the small differences in their dysfunctional traffic-saturated ring-road systems. And what are the supermarkets full of? Ready meals full of chemicals - for FUCKS sake Britain, cook your own food!

There's no pride in anything - ones work, ones environment, ones town, and nobody actually makes anything anymore - it's all "service industry" whatever the fuck that means, what 'industry'?

I don't believe in conspiracy theories generally, (after all, conspiracies require competence, and that's a precious commodity these days), but if some shady organisation had wanted to hatch a plot (in the 1960s, say) to turn Britain into a sleepwalking nation of compliant consumers that took any old shit thrown at them with a shrug, they could not have done better than what has actually taken place since then. Britain can be a beautiful place, and it has its good points, and good people, but as a nation it's lost its soul. Very sad. WAKEY WAKEY!!!

Re:awesome

[malsdavis]

Right, so the hotter climates - which the English crave and all those countries just happen to have - wouldn't be anything to do with it?

Re:awesome

[GrahamCox]

I think Britain is a hugely underrated country, and living away for 7 years made me appreciate it so much more, and the Aussies are right - whining poms!

The Aussies only complain about us whinging (not whining) if it's about Australia. Knocking Britain is fine ;-) Australia isn't perfect and there are aspects of Britain I really do appreciate. However, food in supermarkets in Australia is much cheaper, fresher, with more variety, still largely seasonal, travelled generally less far and is in much greater proportion to ready meals. Last time I visited a Tesco in the UK (admittedly at Christmas time) I could hardly find any real food - half the store was "seasonal goods" (and what the hell are Tesco doing selling tellys?) and what was left of the food section seemed to be 60% pre-packed or pre-cooked (pre-grated cheese? I mean, WTF??? How hard is it to grate cheese!). Some food in the UK is now universally so awful (yes Bacon, I'm looking at you) that many people have probably never experienced what the real thing tastes like. (Hint: go to a proper farmer's market and find out.)

The other thing that's better in Britain is the beer, whatever an Aussie might try to claim otherwise. Which is an interesting point, because at one time, beer looked to be utterly fucked. Thanks to CAMRA you can now find decent beer almost everywhere, so it proves that grass-roots movements can achieve things. So maybe there is hope - Brits just need to start caring about their food, their health and their political representatives as much as they have shown they cared about their beer!

I should think they ought to give me a guest spot on "Grumpy Old Men" at this rate. Which is another bloody thing, reality TV..........

Fail

[TubeSteak]

If the British Government had any balls, they'd build their own version of the Great Firewall and log everything that goes through a node on their national infrastructure.

That way you can call it what it is.
Instead, the ISPs are being pulled into doing the dirty work, which means the gov't gets shielded from some of the heat.

Re:Fail

[freedom_india]

Political Lesson 101:
1. A totalitarian government spends its money and employs its people to build a Great Firewall. Expenses: $100 million. It Works.

2. A democratic government takes people's money, gives it to a few chosen private contractors to build a monitoring station that can intercept ten million telephone calls a day, and will work for first few hours before its database becomes full. Expenses: $1215 million. It never works. After a year and spending 10x times the budget, the government blames the contractors, the contractors blame the MPs, and the people vote out the party and a new party comes into power. The new party is approached by a private contractor who proposes monitoring emails....

There should be a law which states that for each camera in public, there should be a camera in each MPs house. After all they are public servants!

Who exactly is proposing this?

[cortesoft]

The article says it is being proposed by Home Office "officials", yet the only person from the home office mentioned by name seems to be clearly against the proposal. I have a feeling that this was just something discussed, maybe brought up in a meeting in the Home Office, but has never been actually proposed officially. In fact, the article seems to confirm this, as evidenced by the line

Home Office officials have discussed the option of the national database with telecommunications companies and ISPs as part of preparations for a data communications Bill to be in Novemberâ(TM)s Queenâ(TM)s Speech. But the plan has not been sent to ministers yet. Of course things like this will be discussed amongst government officials, and talking to the telecoms to find out the technical feasibility would be something done early in the process. I would start to be concerned if this was officially proposed, and then really concerned if it was accepted and enacted.

Re:Who exactly is proposing this?

[mrsteveman1]

Damn facts...getting in the way of a good rant....fuckers

Re:Who exactly is proposing this?

[Bogtha]

the only person from the home office mentioned by name seems to be clearly against the proposal.

There's nobody from the Home Office mentioned by name in the article. If you are referring to Jonathan Bamford, the assistant Information Commissioner, then the ICO is an independent public body sponsored by the Ministry of Justice. If you are referring to David Davis, the Shadow Home Secretary, then he is part of the shadow government, i.e. he is the opposition party's counterpart to the Home Secretary.

Premature?

[Bogtha]

If you want to write to representatives to let them know your views, contact details are available at Write to Them.

While I think Write To Them is a fine service and encourage people to use it more, I can't help but feel this is a little premature. This is just another hare-brained idea by the Home Office that MPs haven't even seen yet. Why don't we wait until they actually have a copy of the bill before bombarding them with complaints about it? Otherwise we run the risk of looking like paranoid kooks for protesting a bill that nobody has read because it doesn't even exist yet.

Re:Premature?

[dafrazzman]

Pre-bill political wrangling is a proven tactic. If you get a lot of people to complain about the concept, the bill will never come to fruition.

In fact, if you can get enough people to write in fearing some sort of massive problem, any bill that can be seen to have the slightest association with that fear, no matter how much the original fear was inflated, will never come to pass.

Re:Premature?

[ewe2]

Because history shows that a negative public reaction will make them think twice. The whole point of this "leak" is to test that public opinion, and allows MPs to avoid thorny questions. Frankly, being called a paranoid kook is preferable to being on a database.

Re:Premature?

[ClioCJS]

I guess you shouldn't vote either. Or do anything. How about you just curl up in the corner and die, since you make no difference? No individual can. I propose mass suicide.

Re:Premature?

[Benaiah]

Obviously you haven't worked with bureaucracy. All it takes is letters to get a council to not approve building plans. Enough people complain about anything and the councils change their plans. After all they are YOUR MPs. They have to read all of the letters that you send you and they usually respond, via proxy.

Re:Premature?

[smoker2]

In fact this "leak" will later become known as "the period of full and frank public consultation" which provides the mandate for the enforced changes.

Now more than ever

[ciaohound]

"Western civilization isn't possible without relational databases." -- Bruce Lindsay, IBM fellow. I always loved that quote.

Re:Is this even legal issue?

[Pepebuho]

I do not think they are talking about statistical data in here. They mean the content of everything and that is A BAD THING(TM).

Re:Time to buy stock in storage providers..

[mrsteveman1]

phone calls are only what like 8khz effective sample rate? thats about all thats worth capturing at least....

You can store a phone call in WAY less than 128kbps per second, which is what 1MB/min amounts to.

NIMBY!

[Tastecicles]

After the very public demonstration of the UK Government's (more specifically, Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs) laughable security policy when it comes to personal data, I'm suddenly very paranoid.

Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdom?!

[caitsith01]

Being a U.S.-centric site, a lot of vitriol gets directed towards the US government around here (and so it should in relation to many laws and policies relating to "terrorism" and "security").

But what on earth is going on in the UK? Security cameras literally everywhere, compulsory DNA databases, laws permitting detention without charge or trial for long periods of time, that insane proposal for a law to allow laws to be made and abolished by regulation (i.e. without a vote in parliament), and this obsession with centralising government control over information, particularly insofar as it relates to the movements and communications of private citizens. The list goes on and on.

Britain stood virtually alone against fascism in World War Two, and was a bastion against the totalitarian Soviet bloc during the Cold War. Before then the UK resisted the power of the Catholic church, eliminated any real power for its despotic monarchs, and even briefly pioneered the field of total republican independence from hereditory rule, later embraced by some more celebrated republics. Before any of that you managed to write the Magna Carta, perhaps the greatest document on the rights of the individual in human history.

Why did you even bother, only to willingly turn yourselves into a bureaucractic authoritarian state? Sure, you're not murdering millions of your citizens in gas chambers, but you're only a hop, skip and a jump away from East Germany under the Stasi - total state surveillance and the tyranny of a huge, opaque executive government where faceless "officials" control the lives of citizens.

Wake up, before it's too late.

to understand the source of this

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Watch Adam Curtis's documentary, The Trap.

Here it is:

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Brilliant stuff. Really sad. But brilliant.

RS

Wow!

[isotope23]

You know, stories like this make clear its a good thing the Nazis didn't win WWII. Just imagine if the Nazis had won, they might have tapped everyone's.....
er..... Nevermind....

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[denton420]

This is the first comment I read. I do not need to go any further before saying that you are not only right, but have put forth the truth in such an eloquent manner.

History does repeat itself, or so they say.
1700-1900 is NOT that long of a time span at all in the grand scheme of things. Now consider all of the world changing events we saw in just two hundred years. The change saw are almost unimaginable by even the most creative of minds. What will another 200 years and scarce resources bring?

I do not think even the most intellectual of us can fathom what the world will look like in a hundred years. If it comes down to it, the police state WILL be enforced if deemed necessary, and it will all be already in place ready to go...

We think we are so different from those before us, but are you so naive to think that they did not feel the same way about their previous generations?

It really is time to get up and do something if you live in the UK. This kind of stuff makes me feel good to be in the US... for once.

Re:Don't forget...

[Hojima]

Carl Marx wasn't a fascist he was a communist. Please don't confuse the the two, as the red scare really makes communism look worse than it is.

I don't think this is good enough

[joe user jr]

How can we be safe from criminals and terrorists while we still retain the ability to communicate face to face without full disclosure to our loyal public servants?

I regard it as not only highly desirable but a moral duty to provide the contents of all non-electronically-mediated conversations - ideally a full video or audio recording would be made available, but at the very least a transcript or precis.

I just don't know how one could claim to be an upstanding citizen without providing such.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Benaiah]

It sounds like that we are moving to the state of "Pre-crime" where we will be charged with suspicious activity even when no crime has yet been committed.

All they need now is some curfews and laws against private gatherings.

Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[Morromist]

Nobody seems to hate the concept of terrorism as much as the Brits -

I would like to see us have an Osama Bin ladin day where we burn his effigy to fireworks and general celebration
- and Guy fawkes never actually carried out the gunpowder plot
AND nobody seems to forget the bloody goverment reprisals that have taken place under the guidance of the old Kings and Queens, mostly due to religious differences. here I name but a few:

The rampage of Bloody Bonner during the reign of Queen Mary I

The Bloody Assizes of Judge Jeffreys in the reign of King James II

The repression in Scotland against the highlanders after the first Jacobite rebellions which some historians have called genocide

The Peterloo Massacre in 1819

Have the English forgot all of these thousands of government killings and yet still remember Guy Fawkes who did not manage to kill a single person?
If I were British I would be considerably more afraid of my government than any terrorist.

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[deepershade]

If I were British I would be considerably more afraid of my government than any terrorist. Believe me. I am. And when we raise our concerns, they ignore us and do what they want anyway. Learn this, we are no longer a democracy (rule of the majority), we're a totalitarianistic state. The vote is just something they 'allow' us to have because it appeases the masses. And please don't mod this down unless you actually live in the UK. I WISH this were a flamebait or a troll. I really do.

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[deepershade]

Replied for clarity (forgot to properly close tags and to line return)

If I were British I would be considerably more afraid of my government than any terrorist.

Believe me. I am. And when we raise our concerns, they ignore us and do what they want anyway. Learn this, we are no longer a democracy (rule of the majority), we're a totalitarianistic state. The vote is just something they 'allow' us to have because it appeases the masses. And please don't mod this down unless you actually live in the UK. I WISH this were a flamebait or a troll. I really do.

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[Zemran]

The vote is just something they 'allow' us to have because it appeases the masses.

Why do people go on about the vote as if it makes a difference? In China they have had elections for decades and nothing has changed. The party puts forward a few suits to chose between and the people choose a puppet to stand in front of them. In Britain we get to choose between 3 suits and in the US they get to choose between 2... It is a long time since we have been any different to China or Russia.

Russia and China are moving in one direction and becoming more free. The UK and the US are moving in the other direction. Russia has closed its gulags and the US has opened its own...

In a few years we will be different to Russia and China again when they become the representatives or the free world.

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[cjb658]

Russia and China are moving in one direction and becoming more free. The UK and the US are moving in the other direction. Russia has closed its gulags and the US has opened its own...

I think a few Russian journalists would beg to differ (if they were still alive, that is).

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[MachDelta]

As far as I understand it as a Canadian (similar but not completely identical systems), there is no fixed term for the PM or upper house (of Lords in the UK, the Senate in Canada), but the lower (elected) House of Commons (both countries) is limited to 5 year terms. Now the only way for the House of Commons to 'eject' a PM as it were is for a major bill to fail to pass through the house of commons. This is called a "vote of no confidence" and basically means that if the PM can't get something important, like a budget, through the lower house, then the government must be dissolved. It's very rare, at least in Canada. Now assuming the people have elected a majority government or a majority coalition where its virtually impossible to pass a vote of no confidence, then basically once you elect a party (and it's leader) to government you're stuck with them for at least 5 years. Your absolute last ditch effort is for enough people to convince their members of parliament (the person you elected to the house of commons) to vote against their own party, or at least apply pressure to the PM for change. It wouldn't happen except in an extreme situation.

And they wonder why voter turnout in Canada (and the UK, incidentally) has been sliding for years...

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[dryeo]

While the Prime Minister is appointed he is the leader of the party that dominates parliament. So in practice the people vote along party lines to get a certain PM.
The power of the house of lords has been curtailed quite a bit over history, especially at the beginning and end of the 20th century.
They can only delay bills, 1 month for monetary bills (new taxes etc) and 2 sessions of parliament or 1 year for other bills.
I believe that much of the opposition against the current police state has actually come from the house of lords.
I personally think that having a second house who's members don't have to worry about reelection to allow delays for second thoughts on legislation is actually a good idea.

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[TractorBarry]

As a UK "citizen" I totally agree with you. England has sleepwalked into something akin to post war East Germany.

"Oh but stop moaning, there are twelve kinds of butter in the supermarket".

Pah, Viz comics bottom inspectors are looking more like prophecy every day !

Re:Remember, Remember the 5th of whenever!

[Kijori]

Oh for Goodness' sake. I know that it's very fashionable at the moment to claim that the UK and US are turning into repressive police states, but is this comment actually based on any knowledge?

Russia is moving toward becoming more free? Under Putin the state control of the media increased massively, the President's powers were increased hugely and the Duma was reduced to almost nothing. Now we have Medvedev, who won in a landslide that could never have been anything other than a landslide, while Putin is Prime Minister and still hugely powerful, leading a party with a constitutional majority and his hand-picked successor as president.

China is pretty much the archetypal example of a repressive regime working today. A country employing the most complex control system ever built to prevent the people exercising any control and employing methods that have been associated with tyranny since the days of Aristotle.

Claiming that these countries are as free as the UK or the US is a very strong statement, especially when you assert it with no evidence or information of any sort. It's a long time since we have been any different? The Republic of China has existed for 58 years, the Russian Federation for 16. And even if we just look at the UK it's difficult to see what you could be talking about.

In the UK we have a three party system. The candidates embody genuine differences in philosophy, have massive differences in their manifestos and represent different sides of the political divide. It's very popular at the moment to make fun of the parties for having no real differences in policy, but it's mostly popular among people who have no idea what the parties' policies are. People "go on about the vote as if it makes a difference" because it does make a difference - you sound like you're in the UK so you have probably noticed there are some by-elections on at the moment, and the peoples' votes are forcing the Government to give people what they want. If the by-elections are as bad for Labour as many people expect, their entire policy agenda will have to change. This accountability is one of the things the vote guarantees; politicians have to govern reasonably or lose office.

V for Vendetta

[Jane Q. Public]

Cue the 1812 Overture...

Re:You forgot to mention the sheep....

[777a]

Is all of this all down to the British Government or is it coming from the EU? Unfortunately it's both from the UK and EU.

Watching Sky news (one of the two main news stations) earlier today they referred to the data retention law as an EU law, but that isn't entirely correct.

When the UK was president of the EU it brought in Europe wide data retention laws. It was shortly after 7/7 and managed to get enough votes to be passed.

When an EU law is passed the member states implement it in their own way (all member states are required their phone companies / ISP's to log phone / internet data for at least 6 months, some do longer).

So while this is technically an EU law, it was brought into Europe by predominantly by the UK.

Allowing the data to be stored by the government is a new, UK only law.

Re:Time to buy stock in storage providers..

[DarthBart]

8Khz sample rate at 8-bit/sample = 64Kbps

If you record the audio in each direction as a different stream, then you get 128Kbps.

Republicans

[falconwolf]

Have you guys seen what's been happening to the republican assholes who've been running our government?

I won't blame the Republicans, the powers that the PATRIOT Act gave Bush Clinton tried to grab as president too.

Falcon

Re:Republicans

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't blame the Republicans, the powers that the PATRIOT Act gave Bush Clinton tried to grab as president too. [citation needed]

I don't think so

[slyborg]

Guantanamo Bay was created when Chuck roundhouse-kicked Cuba in the face during the Cuban Missile Crisis and so terrified Castro he begged Khrushchev to remove the missiles.

So *now* you know.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[conan1989]

this is not just something the UK citizens should be protesting / revolting over... if this goes through it will set a precedence for other governments to follow. but that's not to say that it isn't already happening, black ops do happen

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[EverStoned]

Great comment, bet that argument could be used to win some opposition in England! "Your Granddad fought Nazis..for this?"

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Joce640k]

They already went there, believe me. Go to The Pirate Bay and get the movie "Taking Liberties" - it's a documentary about what the current government has done to the UK.

They have a clip of Tony Blair saying that he knows a whole class of people who will grow up to be be criminals and ought to be registered as such *pre-birth*.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[StrategicIrony]

This is unequivocally one of the most profound posts ever made on Slashdot about the state of the government in the UK and other wester states around the world.

Now that I've said that... ehm... ..papers please. :-)

Re:Don't forget...

[0123456]

Please don't confuse the the two, as the red scare really makes communism look worse than it is. Given that communism killed around a hundred million people and destroyed the lives of over a billion in the 20th century, it's hard to see how anyone could make it look worse than it actually is.

Re:Don't forget...

[Hojima]

It's totalitarianism that killed people. There's a difference between a form of government and a form of commerce control. You can have Communism with a democracy you know, it just hasn't been tried (to my knowledge at least). What the soviet government did is hide under the blanket of Communism, but in reality, they were no different than any other oppressive monarch. That is what Orwell was trying to say. He didn't write against Communism, he wrote against the government that hid under it. If he wanted to write against Communism, he would have made examples of animals not competing due to a lack of free market, not a bunch of pigs abusing their power.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the UK?!

[Capsaicin]

But what on earth is going on in the UK? Security cameras literally everywhere, compulsory DNA databases, laws permitting detention without charge or trial for long periods of time ...

I understand where you are coming from, and I hate being surveilled myself, but let's try to understand the context in which this is happening. Necessity is the mother of invention. For the better part of a half a century, the UK has been under constant terrorist threat and subject to numerous (often hightly deadly) attacks. They have a lot of experience dealing with this and these measures have developed over time (accompanied by some very poor curial decisions). This is not unqualifiedly good, but neither is it surprising.

Now that sections of Islam have declared war on Western civilisation, the UK faces a particularly nasty threat, namely a HUGE number of poorly socialised (into British culture) and radicalised Islamic youth living within their very borders. As we sit here from a safe distance, several hundred potential Islamic suicide bombers are devising way to kill the maximum number of Britons possible.

Perhaps the problem was that the British state (which after all is not separated from the Anglican church), has been too tolerant of religious diversity in the past.</irony>

... that insane proposal for a law to allow laws to be made and abolished by regulation (i.e. without a vote in parliament)

Sorry I'm not up to speed here. Delegated legislation is long established and is in use in virtually every common law country in the world. That's what a 'Regulation' (as opposed to an 'Act') is. Which particular insane proposal are you referring to that puts a new twist on this?

Britain stood virtually alone against fascism in World War Two, and was a bastion against the totalitarian Soviet bloc during the Cold War ... Why did you even bother, only to willingly turn yourselves into a bureaucractic authoritarian state?

Here you are simply committing an error of logic. While it is true that a "bureaucractic authoritarian state" would benefit from a highly surveilled society, a highly surveilled society by no means implies a "bureaucractic authoritarian state!" (Neither is the absence of effective surveillance a guarantee against authoritarian rule). This really depends on how robust British democracy is, how safe the legal framework is regarding the proper use surveillance, presumptions of innocence vs. protection of the public, data protection, privacy etc. etc. I don't think you should write off British democracy just yet (I mean it's not like they use electronic voting machines! ;)

Wake up, before it's too late.

I believe that's what they are doing! And one hopes that their basic liberal-democratic* values survive the challenge.

*I mean 'liberal-democratic' in the traditional sense of the term (ie. representative democracy through free elections balanced by respect for the rights of individuals, as embodied in the rule of law), not in the recent abusive misuse of the term to signify left-of-centre US Democrats, as employed by people who got their politcal education off the back of a Corn Flakes pack.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[TartanTerrorist]

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-559597
According to Privacy International, Australia's slight worse off than Scotland but a lot better than England and Wales, luckily we keep our own law system when we invited England into the union.

The UK government seems to implementing anything they think they can get away with, CCTV with speakers attached, lamp posts with hidden CCTV and flying CCTV (like the things from HL2).

With all that in mind it has become absolutely imperative that Scotland gains its independence in the 2010 referendum, without that, I worry that we will be heading down the tubes with the rest of the 'UK'.

For those that debate how bad things actually are then the 'Taking Liberties' documentary (as mentioned above) shows how every basic human right has been violated by the Labour government in the last 10 years.

It's time....

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Venik]

Britain stood alone against fascism? A bastion against the Soviets? I am not surprised your government wants to keep a close eye on you. An island nation with an ego like that definitely requires close supervision.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[religious freak]

What's wrong with them? I think I've got a good idea...

Don't forget they have actually had a number of terror related incidents... more than one the US has had.

How many incidents do you think it would take to get the US on this track? (Keep in mind we've already got surveillance in NY where 9/11 hit hardest)

We love to think we're so brave and treasure our liberty above our security, but human nature is human nature. I'd say we'd cave similarly quickly in the same position...
* 2000 1 June: Bomb explodes on Hammersmith Bridge
* 2000 20 September: RPG attack SIS Building
* 2001 4 March: A car bomb explodes outside the BBC's main news centre in London.
* 2001 16 April: Hendon post office bombed
* 2001 6 May: The Real IRA detonate a bomb in a London postal sorting office.
* 2001, 3 August: The last Real IRA bomb in Britain explodes in Ealing, West London, injuring seven people.
* 2001, 4 November: Car bomb explodes in Birmingham
* 2005 7 July: The 7 July 2005 London bombings conducted by four separate suicide bombers, killing 56 people and injuring 700.
* 2007 January - February: The 2007 United Kingdom letter bombs
* 2007 30 June: 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_the_United_Kingdom (modified slightly for brevity's sake)

(This is just 2000-present. IRA bombs kill just as well as Al-Qaeda)

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Gordonjcp]

But what on earth is going on in the UK? Security cameras literally everywhere,

Except there isn't

compulsory DNA databases,

If you're charged with a crime, you get a DNA sample taken. If it doesn't go to court for whatever reason, or you are not found guilty, the sample is destroyed (unless you've got a prior criminal record)

laws permitting detention without charge or trial for long periods of time

Yeah, the US has *nothing* like that that

insane proposal for a law to allow laws to be made and abolished by regulation (i.e. without a vote in parliament),

Laughed out of the house as soon as it was proposed

and this obsession with centralising government control over information, particularly insofar as it relates to the movements and communications of private citizens
... which will be talked about for a while, then thrown out.

The UK may have its faults, but I'd rather live here than in the US, where you've got a policeman training his gun on you wherever you go, ready to shoot and kill you at a moment's notice.

You question the motives of our dear leaders?

[Stanislav_J]

But don't you understand? All this -- the surveillance, the monitoring, the foolproof IDs -- is going to ultimately eliminate crime in the UK and enable everyone to live in blissful peace and safety and harmony, correct? I mean, hasn't crime already slowed to a trickle because of all the CCTV and stuff?

What? It hasn't? But...but...how could this not work? I thought for sure...

Unless.....maybe this has nothing to do with battling crime and terrorism, but instead to establish total control over the lives of citizens? NO!!! NO!!! Perish the thought...not in a Western Democracy...we have freedom and all that other good stuff, not like those nasty totalitarian regimes, right? Must...eliminate...negative...thinking....all is well...all is well....all is well.....

Re:You forgot to mention the sheep....

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, come on, compare the correct things, even if it's bad for the UK, sheep EID is hardly a totalitarian tool :P

"Blame Europe" is a game the UK plays well. It's what they do whenever an unpopular law gets passed. Never mind that the UK often voted in favor of these laws in Europe.

The doom scenario "being a puppet of Brussels" is equally absurd. Like the UK is the only country in Europe that would want to keep it's independence. The EU is still mostly a tool that enforces the economy of all members, and it won't become that much more in hurry.

Sure, some EU regulations are bad, but all UK parties use the EU as their number one scapegoat to hide their own flaws. And sadly, playing the victim works.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[IIH]

If you're charged with a crime, you get a DNA sample taken. If it doesn't go to court for whatever reason, or you are not found guilty, the sample is destroyed (unless you've got a prior criminal record)

Completely incorrect. If you are even arrested for a "recordable offence" (which most are) your DNA can be taken, and kept even if you aren't charged, (or even if the arrest was completely baseless). The only place where it is automatically destroyed is in Scotland, which is may be what you are thinking of.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[zsau]

By allowing entry into Britian to anyone with a British passport (which is to say anyone from any of current and former the British colonies) the British have lost control of their own land and country.

Huh! I wish! I was born in what was, at the time, a self-governing colony of Great Britain. A couple of years later, it became independent of Great Britain (the only significant change was that the government was appointed directly by the Queen on the advice of the the Victorian Premier, instead of on the advice of the British Foreign Office). However, neither before "independence" (Victoria of course remains a state of Australia, so it's not independent, merely independent of Great Britain), nor after it, was I entitled to a British passport.

And even of the former British colonies which have become practically independent of the United Kingdom more recently than my country, most people don't have access to a British passport.

And even of the present British colonies, or people who did whatever was necessary to retain a British passport in former British colonies, the mere possession of a British passport does not grant you right of abode in Britain. You need to have British Citizenship for that i.e. an association with Great Britain proper --- not just an association with a British colony.

France, on the other hand, is much more like you describe. You should check it out if you want scary weirdness.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[MadMidnightBomber]

This is in no way true.If you live in say, Pakistan, you do not get a British passport- you get a Pakistani passport. Recent immigration has mostly been from EU countries - none of them former colonies.

Mods really are on crack today, or else don't know *anything* about the UK. (Or possibly the original poster is Melanie Phillips.)

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[aproposofwhat]

So what do we have?

2000 - a couple of incidents, neither serious nor fatal.

2001 - a cluster of 'Real IRA' incidents - again, none fatal.

Then a gap of 4 years, until a small group of misguided Islamists actually manage to get it together to cause mayhem - bad, but only about a weeks worth of road deaths in the UK.

Then another gap of two years, and two unrelated incidents - the Glasgow attack was particularly inept and risible, the letter bombs were the work of a nutter rather than organised terrorism.

I live here, and my parents were a couple of hundred yards away from the Arndale Centre truck bomb when it went off, and I'm not worried about terrorism at all.

I am, however, worried about the authoritarian tendencies of Neues Arbeit and the complicity of their friends in the media.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Jedi Alec]

Don't forget they have actually had a number of terror related incidents... more than one the US has had.

Ok, so what you're saying is that terrorist activity excuses the kind of draconian measures being taken?

Let's take a good look at that word "terrorist" again. Terror...had something to do with being very afraid, doesn't it? So if one goes completely apeshit and implements all sorts of ridiculous measures...who's winning again?

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[caitsith01]

Britain stood alone against fascism? A bastion against the Soviets? I am not surprised your government wants to keep a close eye on you. An island nation with an ego like that definitely requires close supervision. Yes. Remember that part where the Axis powers made it to the western coast of France? And America was staying neutral militarily because Japan had not yet bombed the hell out of Pearl Harbour? And London and most of the UK were subjected to the Blitz while the Axis considered the best way to invade the UK, until (in the Battle of Britain) British aircraft won a decisive air victory which led to the war gradually turning in favour of the Allies? Yeah. That whole thing.

I will admit I was thinking in terms of the anglosphere. Russia obviously took an absolute beating in WWII, although for a long time they were also neutral.

As for the Cold War, well, I didn't say they stood alone in that. But post WWII Britain and the US were the dominant allied powers, with Britain on the wane and the US on the rise.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the UK?!

[SD-Arcadia]

I stopped reading at "Now that sections of Islam have declared war on Western civilisation.." Let me fix that for you: "Now that Western imperialist wars on Islamic countries have triggered terrorist responses.." Please, please get it right. Contrary to what you hear from adults around the playground "Who started it" is very important.

Typical Government Tactic

[pmsbony]

This whiffs very strongly of the usual government tactic here in the UK. They will 'leak' an extreme proposal that nobody in the right mind would support and get a lot of people protesting. Then when the bill is presented the proposal will be watered down to what the government actually wanted in the first place. Protesters are happy because they were 'successful'. Government are happy because they get what they wanted. We lose but think we win.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[xaxa]

No, the mods are just Americans. The story was published and commented upon while everyone in Britain was asleep.

The reverse happens when America hasn't woken up when a story is published.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Chrisq]

By allowing entry into Britian to anyone with a British passport (which is to say anyone from any of current and former the British colonies) the British have lost control of their own land and country.

This is the story pushed by the government and the press.

"We need these laws to keep you safe from all those nasty Moslem terrorists and Eastern European Maffia types. Things are so bad now that we need to track anybody or this will soon be an Islamic state. If you complain about this you are supporting terrorists. If it we don't get this information half of London could be blown up"

Unfortunately a lot of people believe the FUD and think they have to accept it.

Re:You forgot to mention the sheep....

[jon207]

One of the problems in EU is that when a law is make at Brussels, it doesn't apply instantly (it have to be implemented locally) so people don't care. And when it's time to implement the law locally, well, it's too late, because states are obliged to implement Brussel's laws.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the UK?!

[Capsaicin]

I stopped reading at ...

Ah now that's where you went wrong, you see, being closed minded and being well informed are mutually exclusive. And because you were not informed about the rest of my comment, your make a critique is somewhat lacking in relevance.

Let me fix that for you: "Now that Western imperialist wars on Islamic countries have triggered terrorist responses.."

Had you continued to read, you would have noticed that this was not about "Islamic countries" (which should in any case not exist)*, but about British Muslims, born, bred and living in the UK (which remains for now not an "Islamic country"). Yes they are living there as a result of past imperialism, but about the only imperialist transgression these individuals can complain of that the UK permitted their ancestors to escape the "Islamic countries" they lived in and settle in Britain.

Contrary to what you hear from adults around the playground "Who started it" is very important.

When some religionist fruitcake decides to kill him- or herself and to take out as many innocent bystanders because of his or her delusional adherence to some psychopathic intepretation of any particular "holy" book, (and without so much as the excuse that they are fighting off the invader), it really and truly doesn't matter "who started it." But I guess you would have to be an adult to appreciate that.

*instead there should be countries which, like Turkey, are simply countries which happen to have Islamic people living in them.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Weedlekin]

"If it comes down to it, the police state WILL be enforced if deemed necessary"

Those at the top of the political heap always deem police states to be necessary because they wouldn't stay at the top of said heap unless they had an innate desire for controlling everyone else. The problem they have in democracies is convincing the public to let them have the powers they've always wanted.

"It really is time to get up and do something if you live in the UK"

They won't though, because Britain is now largely occupied by spiteful, ignorant people who are so driven by their resentment of anyone who does something they don't like or approve of that the vast majority of them would welcome a system where denouncing annoying people would immediately result in them being forcibly hauled off to a place where they can't annoy decent citizens for the rest of their lives.

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[ManxStef]

Keep an eye on "S and Marper v United Kingdom", where two British citizens who've had their DNA taken argue that this retention is in breach of their human rights. More here: http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/news-and-events/1-press-releases/2008/european-court-of-human-rights-dna-case-will-promote-national-database-deb.shtml

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[FireFury03]

What's wrong with them? I think I've got a good idea...

Don't forget they have actually had a number of terror related incidents... more than one the US has had.

Yup, and we had a whole load more terror related incidents in the decades prior to 2000 from the IRA. We didn't need to treat the whole population as potential terrorists to deal with the threat then so why do we need to now?

When I was younger, and we had a constant threat of IRA terrorism, everyone always downplayed the dangers in an effort to keep people calm. Ever since 9/11, the US have been making a big deal about terrorism and (rather stupidly) the UK government have aligned themselves with the US. These days, the UK government seems to be following the US's lead and actively *hyping up* the terrorist threat - trying to make the public as scared as possible so they can push through new legislation like this.

This is not helped by the modern media who try to sensationalise stories as much as possible, to the detriment of the society as a whole. You don't even need to look at terrorism to see the effects the media have - last year, sensationalist reporting caused a run on the Northern Rock bank which was only saved from collapse by being hurriedly nationalised.

Back in the IRA days, it was often said that if we change the way we live because of terrorist threats then the terrorists have won. Well I guess we know who's won now don't we?

Who are the terrorists these days? Extremists - yes, they are going around blowing people up as they always have. The government - definitely, they are now terrorising the public by overstating the extremist threat in an effort to further their own political agenda.

Fight back!

[UpnAtom]

NO2ID is the main campaign opposing mass surveillance. We are the fastest growing campaign in the country, are very well organised and have driven most of the bad press these Big Brother plans have received.

But we are short on people (and money). So register your support. There is no obligation and how many opportunities do you get to save your country?

Re:Seriously, what is wrong with the United Kingdo

[Diem2000]

The UK may have its faults, but I'd rather live here than in the US, where you've got a policeman training his gun on you wherever you go, ready to shoot and kill you at a moment's notice. You're kidding, right?

First of all, there are armed police in the UK. Granted, most police don't carry guns, but there are specific armed units, as well as regular officers who are authorized to carry firearms. And, it's not like they have never used them improperly. There's an interesting list of police shootings on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom#Controversial_shootings.

Secondly, where do you get your information on police having guns drawn and trained on people at all times? I live in Detroit. Arguably the most dangerous city in the US. I was a student at Michigan State University during the riots in the late 90s. I often pass 4+ cop cars on the way to work, an 11 mile drive (almost 18 km). I have *never* seen a police officer with their gun drawn. Never.

Your post should not be modded Insightful. You, sir, are a troll. I would mod you myself, but I felt it necessary to respond to the post, rather than modding you as you should be.