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66% Apple Market Share For Sales of High-End PCs

Posted by kdawson on from the factory-to-fingers dept.

An anonymous reader lets us know about a recent analysis of retail computer sales numbers that shines a spotlight on Apple's sales growth as the PC market has flattened. In the lucrative >$1,000 PC segment, in the first quarter of 2008, Apple's retail market share was 66%. This includes a 64% market share for laptops and a market share for desktops of 70%. The article attributes the bulk of this success to Apple's stores. Fortune picked up this report and pointed out the somewhat obvious fact that the >$1,000 PC segment is Apple's by default, since Dell, HP, and Lenovo sell the bulk of their machines in the $500-$750 range, and Apple has only one model selling for less than $1,000. As the analyst said, "If you don't give people a choice [in the Apple stores], people will spend more."

62 of 724 comments (clear)

  1. masturbation in 3,2,1 by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Funny

    fanboys GO

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:masturbation in 3,2,1 by SpeedyG5 · · Score: 5, Funny

      anti-fanboys post in . . . doh!

    2. Re:masturbation in 3,2,1 by TheMidnight · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like Macs, but didn't anyone else think, "Gee, all Macs except one cost over $1000. How could Apple have *any* growth in the sub-$1000 market?" Captain Obvious, to the rescue!

  2. $1,000 market dominance... by Totenglocke · · Score: 5, Interesting

    is exactly why I don't own an Apple. I'd love to have a Macbook Pro, but I just can't justify paying that much for yet another computer. I really think Apple would increase their market share of all systems if they lowered their prices or at least had models that started at lower prices.

    --
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You know, just the other day, I was looking at a Dell laptop running Ubuntu. I decided to compare it to the current MacBook. After upgrading the Dell to match Apple's stock options, the Dell was $100 more expensive (and still had a slower C2D processor and less disk space).

      On one hand, Dell's plain model would suit most people fine. On the other, you get more for your money with a Mac. And ultimately, it works for the consumer's benefit. Macs depreciate much more slowly than Dells, meaning they can get a kick ass fast machine for less than even the cheapie Dell, if they trade in.

    2. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by Merusdraconis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But then they would lose their luxury lustre. The Apple brand is built around the idea that it's a luxury good that only trendy people use - the elaborate Apple stores with the people who fix your computer so you don't have to, the industrial design that looks better than the standard Dell, and the high-end specs and price. Apple makes its money because it can afford, through ruthless and effective positioning, to call itself a luxury good, and price accordingly.

      Prada doesn't make cheap sunnies for the punters. Apple doesn't make cheap laptops for the punters. If either tried, they'd ruin their luxury reputation and they wouldn't be able to afford to put all that effort into making a nice-looking product.

    3. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by countach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple does compete with Dell. They suck up Dell's lucrative high end, leaving Dell with the dregs. They could compete with Dell's low end too, but it's more profitable not to.

    4. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Funny

      Your mum would leave a dent in Panasonic Toughbook.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    5. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by vux984 · · Score: 5, Informative

      See this is what I really don't understand. $1000 is approximately £500. I earn that in one day. From here it looks like the US economy must be really going down the pan if $1000 is too much for a high end computer.

      According to the British government, the median wage in the UK, as of April 2007 was £457 per -week- for full time employees. Even at the 90th percentile one would only be making £1,019/week. So you are claiming to be what? In top 1% of the income scale? Go figure such a person could afford a computer easily.

      http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

      Meanwhile in the US, the median wage is currently ~$35,000/year, which is ~$675/wk. Which works out to about £100 less than in Britain...

      Of course, gas at even at record levels is still half the price of europe, and housing is cheaper in the US, the tax situation is different, etc... so one can't really speculate who is really further ahead based on wage alone. but a $1000 PC is FAR more than a day's pay for well over 90% of the population in either country.

      Oh... according to the HDI index, the standard of living in the US is higher than UK. US is ranked 12th, UK is ranked 16th. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

      But I'd have thought Britain would have scored better than that... what with everyone apparently making in a day nearly what an american makes in a week?!

    6. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by bytesex · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Burberry brand has been ruined in the UK by 'chavs' (that's what they call white trailer trash (minus the trailers) in the UK) all of a sudden discovering it. Even though the price of it hasn't changed (expensive stuff), the people will just buy it, no matter what. The moral of the story: no matter how hard you try to be a luxury brand, you have to always be prepared to be catapulted to where you don't want to be because of the market's whims. In that light, it helps if you have more sticks in the fire.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    7. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by Weedlekin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I really think Apple would increase their market share of all systems if they lowered their prices or at least had models that started at lower prices."

      Companies aim to maximise profits, not market share. More sales doesn't necessarily mean more profits if those sales are achieved by lowering margins to a point where they need to sell 20 items to make the same as they currently do from one (meaning they _have_ to sell 20x as many, and also cope with 20x the support calls, carry 20x the inventory, etc.) or in the case of a company with a reputation for quality, by cutting corners in ways that result in an inferior product.

      The fact that Apple are making lots and lots of money while others with significantly larger market shares are struggling means that the company obviously isn't being run by idiots who aren't capable of working out the price point for each product that allows them to maximise their profits while maintaining their very high customer satisfaction ratings.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    8. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by ronanbear · · Score: 5, Interesting

      To be fair, chavs didn't just discover it. Burberry was carelessly selling to them and lapping up the extra sales and profits until they realised the damage that the -synonymous with chavs- Burberry print baseball caps were doing to their image.

      It was nothing to do with chavs suddenly starting wearing the same Burberry jackets that everyone was familiar with; instead, Burberry bizarrely brought out a range of clothes that only chavs would wear.

      Your example is one that perfectly points out the dangers that Apple would face if they went toe-to-toe with Dell for $500 laptops and grey boxes.

      --
      the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
    9. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by Jellybob · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm not sure they actually are trying to target themselves as a "luxury" good.

      It appears that you consider a computer that works from the moment you turn it on and real people enjoy using, a luxury, but I think that it's just how things should be.

      the elaborate Apple stores with the people who fix your computer so you don't have to


      That's called customer service. If I bought almost any other product, and it broke, I'd expect the person who sold it to me to get it fixed.

      Apple doesn't make cheap laptops for the punters.


      If you actually spec up an equivalent Dell, you'll find that it usually comes out slightly more expensive then the Apple machine. Just because Dell will sell you a $300 piece of crap doesn't mean they're selling you something better as well.
    10. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by leenks · · Score: 3, Interesting

      www.dell.com
      www.apple.com

      Go price them up - you know how hard it is to hardlink to anything once specd up on these sites.

      I bought Mac Pros for work (fully kitted out, just after the refresh) and they were significantly cheaper than the Dells, plus I can triple boot them. The key is it needs to be high end and fairly close to release - Apple generally don't reduce their prices much over time so the deals get less attractive.

    11. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by stewbacca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Apple brand is built around the idea that it's a luxury good that only trendy people use Wrong, wrong.....soooooo wrong. That's your hang-up buddy. The rest of us are just enjoying well made gear for our hard earned cash.

      - the elaborate Apple stores with the people who fix your computer so you don't have to, the industrial design that looks better than the standard Dell, and the high-end specs and price. This a bad thing? This sounds like something I'd be more than willing to spend $100 LESS for (see previous posts about equally spec'd Dells).

      I think you are confusing "luxury" with "no cost cutting". I for one I'm glad there are a few companies out there who design with quality in mind first.

      Then again, what value is my post, being the trendy guy and all (seriously, it's pretty hard to be trendy at age 38 and for 20 years of using Apple products..when does this 'trendy' novelty wear off?)

    12. Re:$1,000 market dominance... by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Their goal isn't to maximize marketshare in all markets - their goal is to maximize profits. In the iPod line, they need to sell low-end stuff to keep the music store viable, and their low-end stuff still fetches pretty decent margins because of the brand name.

      Macs, on the other hand, are a different market. The best they could hope for in the low-end is to become a prettier Dell. I'm a Dell stockholder, and I wish they'd abandon that market to repair their brand name. Dell doesn't have to be cool like Apple, but they need to get the word "crap" disassociated with their name.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  3. For U.S. Retail sales only. by TinyManCan · · Score: 5, Interesting
    These numbers don't really represent that much. They are for U.S. Retail sales. Since Apple is very dominant in the (tiny) retail computer sales industry, its not a shocker that they have high market share in a slice of that market.

    If you were to count BTO computers sold over phone or internet in the U.S. Apple's market share would drop. Add the rest of the world and Apple's market share shrinks even more.

    That said, Apple is gaining speed and is only going to be selling more computers for the foreseeable future.

  4. Windows Fanboys are what we are reading about. by Erris · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's funny to watch Windows Fanboys write about Mac. Somehow, they always loop the discussion around to their favorite software. Check out this exchange from the fine Apple Watch article:

    "iMacs are growing and the Windows desktop ain't. No matter how you look at it, Apple is outperforming Windows." [Stephen, CEO of NDP]

    A statement like that raises the question: Is Windows Vista the problem? The operating system has met with a cool reception, even with Microsoft claiming 140 million licenses have been shipped. "I don't believe that Vista's to blame," Stephen responded. "The vast majority of consumers don't care [about the installed operating system]."

    Really? For about a year now, studies have shown that everyone knows about Vista but no one wants it. It's poor performance has convinced all but the most self loathing of people that Windows is not going anywhere. But finally, Apple is now using almost exactly the same hardware - How can anyone not see that the only remaining difference is software that does not suck?

    You have to wonder if any of these people have ever used anything but Windows for more than a week in the last ten years.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
  5. Re:Correction by 75th+Trombone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But for many people, they are NOT overpriced for the superior apps written for them. Most *n?x apps are by and best for nerds who love to tinker with every option of every program; most Windows apps are just thrown together to make a quick buck.

    But Mac apps, on average, are more thoughtfully designed and crafted than their equivalents on PCs.

    That is the very real difference between Macs and PCs, and that's why some people (including, for the first time, in the very near future, myself) are willing to pay the Apple premium.

    --
    The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
  6. What a great threadjack. by gnutoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Very funny, you flipped a troll conversation about Apple fanboys into a Windows fanboy send up. It is as if the entire energy and malice of the GP was turned onto the GP by a subtle shift in balance.

  7. OSX in 2008! by Artuir · · Score: 4, Funny

    See, guys? I TOLD you it'd be the year of OSX on the desktop!!

  8. Re:You get... by miratrix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course! Only the prettiest and the healthiest Core 2 Duo's are hand picked by the Intel engineers in bunny suits and lovingly put down on the MacBook motherboards.

    This, of course, is in contrast to the Core 2 Duo's that goes into the Dell laptop - they're from the bottom of the barrel and they are shoveled into the sockets by some off-shored child labor getting paid 25 cents an hour, not getting that TLC that the Apple counterparts get. No wonder the Core 2 Duo's in Dells are so dysfunctional!

  9. Re:Correction by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're joking right? It took me a few months to finally figure out how to get a RAID card in my debian box to work (Had to recompile the kernel with support for that card).

    Oh and with 2.6.24 they completely changed away things were. Apparently there's IT821X kernel drivers, then there's libata. So magically when upgraded my kernel all my hd* drives are now sd* drives. But wait, with libata (or was it the IT drivers) it didn't support UDMA. So I was stuck transferring at a whopping 3-4 MB/s. Recompile again. Shit, now grub thinks my hda is sdi. Reboot again and change grub menu. Ahh, finally... no wait. I have to put a noraid=1 at the grub so that the drive doesn't enable RAID. A short 8 hours after doing a simple kernel recompile I'm back up and running.

    Don't get my wrong, I love my linux home server. But in no way does even Ubuntu come close to having everything integrated and 'just working'.

    There's a reason my MacBookPro is my main machine, because some days I don't want to tinker with all of that. My grandma finally wants to get online. My parent asked me what I suggested and honestly an old G4 in simple finder with a few applications: iPhoto, Safari, Mail (if that). SSH will be enabled and I'll have an account for fixing most things.

  10. Lies, Damn Lies, and Apple sales figures by Rix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Take a look at a brick and mortar store retail store that sells computers. You probably won't see anything over $1000, because that's not what the market that buys computers there wants.

    People going to Staples or whatever to buy a PC want a cheap office machine, emphasis on cheap, and they want it immediately. People willing to spend more or wait a few days will either order from somewhere like Dell, have a whitebox store assemble one from parts, or just do it themselves.

  11. Industrial design does matter by Toe,+The · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK, I'll take some fanboy bait...

    The bang-for-buck of Apple's hardware plus their software is a little difficult to justify by itself (though it is arguably a better deal than Windows and a lot less setup than linux). But the industrial design should not be overlooked as a value factor.

    Compare a "cheap" consumer-grade MacBook to a similar consumer-grade Dell. The MacBook not only looks svelte and (to some) cool, it also is simply more convenient to deal with. If your computer is something that you use a lot, some of these little details can be very important.

    I really appreciate the way a MacBook is almost completely silent. That it slips into the lid of a briefcase. That its speakers, microphone, and camera are all accessible but almost invisible. That I can click, right-click, scroll, pan, and more without moving my hand from one place. That it stays out of my way while I use it, instead of calling attention to itself: no blinking lights, no flashy logos in my face, no stupid buttons all over: it is just a screen with easy-to-use input devices.

    1. Re:Industrial design does matter by flabbergast · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No flashing logos? On the MacBook I'm using right now there's a giant glowing Apple logo on the back of the screen. I also get the spinning disk quite a bit. =D Or how about when something happens in an application that's out of context and the Dock tells you about...by bouncing the icon until you switch over. I think that counts as a flashing logo. =D

      As for not "moving my hand from one place" try moving between open files in Xcode within the same window pane without using a mouse or the touchpad. Its <option><command><left arrow> or <option><command><right arrow>. I don't mind having to use two modifiers but I do mind having to use two hands. Or how about page-up and page-down? Again, on my MacBook, for aesthetic sake, page up and down were left off. So, I have to use two hands (<fn><arrow up> to page up. Or Home and End. Is it <command><left arrow> or <fn><left arrow>. I've found it depends on the application. Will it take me to the end of the line or the end of the text? And will the cursor come with it? Or Delete. Again, depends on the application.

      Yes, no stupid buttons on a MacBook (or Apple keyboard) Instead, Apple decided to appropriate the functions keys. Who needs those right? I do: Parallels or VMWare is worthless without re-assigning all the Expose and Spaces keys. <Command><F12> here I come!

      Also, on my 4 year old eMachines I can click, right click, scroll and middle click without having to move my hand off the trackpad either. And, there are trackpads out there that pan too. Sure, it doesn't do it with two fingers like the Mac trackpad, but at least I get two real buttons which can then simulate a third (for true Unix goodness)

      Look, my primary machine is my MacBook and I love it. Further, I do Visualization research on a Quad core Mac pro. But OS X and Apple are not the end all be all of of good design. I love the MacBook keyboard but guess what? Showed up on the Vaio first. And the matte grey finish for the hand rests? Mine are kind of scummy and discolored. I've had a bunch of Dell laptops (D610, D620, Inspiron 3200, 700m) and I've never had the hand rests of them go all scummy. And don't get me started on the Dock...

      P.S. I think the m1330 is actually a pretty nice piece of kit. Its designed well and its got discrete graphics and can be had for cheaper than a MacBook if you wait for a sale (which happen about every other day).

  12. Good example of playing with statistics by gsgriffin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Uh, this is nothing exciting. How many PC's have you bought in a store. Not many. This is retail outlets. Dell sells three times as many computers and tons more over $1000 direct from them to you without the overhead cost of a store filled with cool glass displays and backlighting. The apple stores are designed to be more like a nightclub. They want people to come in and fall in love with the piece of hardware and its smooth round corners. You spend the extra money so you can make love to it. Post the stats on all computer sales and see Apple still with a very small bite of the global sales. Don't get too excited Macaddicts.

    --
    jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
  13. There is no judo chop. by gnutoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's all about pinning your opponent and cutting off their air supply.

    How long will all the other laptop makers be able to hide the losses their "premium" laptops must be suffering because no one wants Vista? While they "race to the bottom" Apple is selling exactly the same hardware for twice as much. The only difference is software. The blackout will come soon.

    1. Re:There is no judo chop. by Idaho · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apple is selling exactly the same hardware for twice as much.


      Really. Can you please spec me out a Dell or HP 13" notebook similar to the $1200 MacBook. Ah, that's right, the 13" Dell XPS (the only 13" they sell) is actually more like $1400. Whoopsie.

      I'd probably agree if you're talking about the 15" models (MacBook Pro) though. Although it's even then obviously not "the same hardware". Try to compare that to prices of the high-quality (formerly known as) Thinkpad line by Lenovo. You'll find it is not much cheaper, if at all.
      --
      Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
    2. Re:There is no judo chop. by Firehed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed. I don't even particularly like my MBP's hardware (as compared to when I was mostly-running OSx86 on a ThinkPad anyways), but the software is so much better than anything else I've used and allows me to get so much more done that it's worth the price premium. Which makes sense, as I'm interacting with the software rather than the hardware.

      It's for this reason primarily that OS X will not be licensed for standard hardware any time in the near future - Apple is using their software to sell hardware. Dell and the like are using their own hardware to sell a package that uses software that they largely can't control.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    3. Re:There is no judo chop. by saterdaies · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apple's machines aren't ridiculously priced.

      What is really ridiculous is that Apple doesn't sell a laptop with a slower processor than 2.1GHz. Seriously ridiculous. I can't get a laptop without a high-quality webcam. I can't get a non-pro laptop that has real graphics. I have to pay $200 for a DVD burner because Apple wants to have a "good, better, best" layout. Apple charges $200 for a better looking black case.

      With Apple, it's a game of getting you to buy the highest margin items by withholding what you need. It's bait and switch. Where PC manufacturers give you choices, Apple forces you to buy things that pump up their profits. Where PC manufacturers have sales that give you good deals on soon-to-be replaced models, Apple screws you over as hard as they can.

      And I put up with it because of the Mac OS (user since System 6). Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that Apple's pricing is as fair, honest, and competitive as their PC counterparts. We pay up to use our favorite system. Apple knows that they have something special and they know they can get much greater profit margins because of it and they take advantage of that. Apple isn't evil or anything, but they aren't cuddly either.

    4. Re:There is no judo chop. by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The HP model also has a touchscreen, tablet mode, and a fingerprint reader (which if I was a Mac fanatic I would hold out as absolutely critical requirements on the Mac to make a fair comparison, but I'll just discount them as extras).

      You'll never get exact specs, especially if you're trying to use a particular vendor and be careful about price. The HP is lacking a Webcam, Firewire, and who knows what else, but also has some other things you didn't mention. The main problem I have with comparisons like yours, however, are that you don't take quality into account. HP laptops had more than three times the failure rate within the first year as Apple machines did (according to Consumer Reports). Sure they both have 2Gb of RAM, but from what vendor and how reliable is it?

      If you want to do a comparison of an Apple laptop and want it to be meaningful, you really have to compare it to a Sony or Lenovo as those are the only two that even come close when comparing reliability and support ratings from independent vendors. You also can't start with a model form one vendor and try to get as close as possible from the other. You need to look at a few models from each and try to match up the closest specced systems where both parties have a comparable system.

      As to Lenovo, most aren't available with the specs the Macbook has - when I checked their sitte[sic] the most expensive 15" laptop they current sell is about $1200. That in itself represents a very nice advantage of PC laptops: their ability to dial BACK the hardware when wanted.

      Heh. That's kind of funny. Apple is inferior for not having very low end systems in some ranges, but when Lenovo doesn't have a high end competitor in a given size, that is a plus?

      Even comparing feature to feature Mac's usually loose[sic], but it gets REALLY bad when I can choose a little bit slower processor. A little smaller of a hard drive, etc.

      ...assuming you ignore the quality of the hardware and only compare numbers, e.g. a 250Gb hard drive from any vendor is exactly the same as from any other vendor, even when they cost different prices and one lasts twice as long.

      As has been said by others, Apple's main strength is their OS, not their hardware.

      Oh I agree entirely, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing that according to independent testing and evaluation, Apple has fairly average margins for their market segment and some of the most reliable machines from any vendor. They make good hardware, arguably the best in the industry.

      That OS would work fine on budget machines, which is what most people buy.

      It would work as well as any other OS does on crappy hardware (provided it had good drivers), which is to say okay, but seemingly worse than on quality hardware, thus giving end users the impression that it was inferior.

      And when it is stated that way, the truth is I can get a functional Windows laptop for $399. I can't get an Apple one unless I lay down a minimum of $1099.

      Actually you can. if you're willing to buy refurbs. But that is neither here nor there. Apple does not have a machine in every market segment and that is a significant drawback for potential buyers. It is not, however the same drawback as their hardware being more expensive than that from other, comparable, vendors.

      Regardless of specs, the Windows laptop has a far lower entry point, because the people who make those computers aren't forcing you to buy faster hardware that you don't need.

      Your phrasing is a bit inflammatory. No one is forcing you to do anything. Apple is one, fairly small, hardware vendor. Of course they won't have comparable hardware to every other hardware vendor on the planet combined. They already have a pretty broad selection of models for a company their size, with more than twice as many systems as companies like Asus, who have significantly mo

    5. Re:There is no judo chop. by arminw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ...Apple forces you to buy things...

      Really? Did Steve Jobs come by your house and hold a gun to your head and bark: "Buy a Mac or else?" No? Boy are you lucky. Buy some Apple stock and get some of that profit back in YOUR pocket.

      --
      All theory is gray
    6. Re:There is no judo chop. by DECS · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Two reasons why PC vendors aren't doing that:

      a) Microsoft can punitively raise their Windows licensing to the point where any savings from shipping Windows-free Linux PCs are erased. As long has Microsoft can maintain that kind of pricing power over what is a utility monopoly, things can't change. Incidentally, that's why every PC maker advertises "we recommend Windows XP/Vista." It's in their contract! Linux sales and advertising are tightly controlled by Microsoft using its OEM leverage.

      b) PC makers investing in software development are afraid that their contributions to GPL software would be used against them. So HP develops a desirable Linux distro that works flawlessly with all the modern video cards, etc, and then Dell can come along and sell it on their PCs without any contribution back, and at no investment expense. Dell wins, HP loses all its investment.

      The reason Apple is doing well is because it has no obligation to or dependance upon Microsoft for Windows licensing. If it did, it would instantly be in the same boat as Palm and the other PC makers. And secondly, Apple can invest heavily in developing its own proprietary OS.

      Mac OS X is a unix distro with a unique kernel that is open but which no other PC maker can effectively really use or benefit from, and a proprietary development framework and GUI.

      Recall that Ray Noorda at Novell and then Caldera tried to pull off something similar with OpenLinux and then United Linux, but couldn't manage to get either one together. If a major software developer couldn't wrangle a suitable Linux desktop distro, how could a PC maker like Dell or HP, neither of which can make software that isn't any better than a flaming turd?

      Caledera's OpenLinux: The Linux "Mac OS X" That Failed

      And for insight on how well a community/corporate partnership can work, look at OpenMoko. It predates the iPhone, but still can't dial from the GUI.

      Apple iPhone vs the FIC Neo1973 OpenMoko Linux Smartphone

      Before you volunteer to help a PC company develop a Linux distro, you might want to consider why they aren't asking for help and why the task might be less appealing than driving nails through your eyelids.

      Mobile EEE PC, UMPC, and Internet Tablets vs the iPhone: Linux' Mobile Problem

  14. Re:It really is preference by Divebus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For windows users using Mac programs is extremely painful and unintuitive and I'm sure the same is true the other way around. I haven't heard that out of the 60-some people I've introduced to Macs. Everyone is used to menu driven things and take to anything new very quickly. My experience says you just show new users the differences and within a short time they're buying a Mac for themselves. Why? Not because it's shiny or anything but because OS X isn't nearly as needy as Windows.
    --

    Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
  15. Re:Correction by the_womble · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My grandma finally wants to get online.

    Your grandma uses RAID?

    Most things that desktop users does work out of the box with Linu. The only common problem is with wireless networking: if you buy a PC with Linux pre-installed (from Sytem76 for example), even that will not be a problem.

    How easy is it to get MacOS working on random PC hardware? Compare like with like and Linux looks pretty good.

  16. Note to commenters by catdevnull · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just a friendly note to all other commenters posting in this and any other thread:

    Don't be a jackass. Seriously, If you have an opinion, express it thoughtfully but avoid assigning labels to those with different opinions.

    For example:
    "Apple fanboys are so stupid--they'll pay too much money for a computer they can't upgrade or build for themselves."

    This is how an immature person makes an argument. I know I'm asking a lot here on slashdot, but it would be great to see the above opinion expressed in the following way:

    "I'm not sure it's wise to spend one's money on a computer that can't be upgraded or one that can't be assembled from parts you pick for yourself. For me, the convenience tax and premium prices for Apple hardware are way too high to be justified."

    Macintosh users should note that taking the former flamebait only reinforces the baiting behavior. You paid a pretty penny for the computer you're using to respond so try to use more than just the "CFCKYUO" keys in your response. As much as you might try, it's futile to explain the subjective nature of the "Mac experience" to the kind of person who types flamebait anyways.

    Just say no to flamebait.

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  17. Re:Correction by 75th+Trombone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Design != skinning. Design is how it works, not how it looks.

    --
    The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
  18. Like $1000+ is a lot of money by HeavyDevelopment · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean seriously. If you can't drop a grand on a computer and you are "professional" then I think you might need to think about another profession. All these people whining about computers that cost more that $1000. I don't get it. A photographer can easily spend $10K on a good digital camera set up and not blink an eye. Ask any carpenter how much they have spent on their tools, 10K is a drop in the bucket. But so many /.ers get their panties in a wad about spending anything more than $500. This is so stupid. Why not get something that works. As a long time windows user that made the switch, OSX simply works better. I still have to use windows at work and I have reboot 2 or 3 times a day. Although I do have to admit that Macs run windows better than any Dell, HP, or whatever I've had. So in short if you are a professional and you are still messing around with low end crap....all I have to say is you get what you pay for. And if you consider this flamebait or a fanboi masturbation exercise then so be it....I know what works.

    --
    Badges!?! We don't need no stinking badges!
  19. Re:You get... by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apple notebooks are manufactured by Quanta, the same company that makes many Dell boxes. They use the same Intel CPUs, graphics, and chipsets as Dell boxes. They use Seagate and Hitachi hard drives, like many Dell boxes.

    So, where's the difference?

  20. Re:Correction by jcr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Keep in mind that the Mach microkernel is not unix, it came from CMU. Some userland stuff came from the *BSD lineage, but calling OS X a "true UNIX" rings about as true as calling windows + cygwin the same.

    What's your next guess?

    In OS X, Mac schedules threads and allocates memory. That's about it. The rest of the kernel services in OS X either came from BSD, or were written in-house at Apple.

    Mac OS X is UNIX. Read and learn.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  21. Costing more is not necessarily more expensive... by NtroP · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When I moved out on my own I started buying tools to help me keep my apartment and eventually my house repaired. I started out picking up the first tool I saw that was cheap and did the job. $10 hammer, $5 multi-screwdriver set, 200-piece no-name, all-in-one socket sets for $20.00, etc. They did the job. After all, you can turn a screw with a cheap screwdriver just like an expensive one.

    Needless to say, I've had many versions of each over time. I can't count the times I've had my phillips-head screwdriver turn into a rounded-out, useless waste of money at the first recalcitrant screw. It always happens at the worst time too. After expressing my frustrations with my dad one time (in language that probably shocked him) He looked at me and simply said "Why don't you buy decent tools?" My response was "Have you seen how much they cost?!" He responded "How many times have you re-bought that screwdriver?". I had to admit that I'd probably spent twice the cost of a "pro" screwdriver over the years on cheap ones and cursed them every time.

    Over time I started applying this lesson to other things in my life. I found that every time I took the cheap option "to make due" I was disappointed and invariably wound up replacing it much sooner than I should have. I found that I actually saved money and aggravation by buying quality the first time. I traded in my cheap POS for a used Mercedes. I threw out my Walmart tennis-shoes for a pair of quality walking shoes. I passed up the $3.00 T-shirts and invested in quality brands. The list goes on...

    I've had the extreme pleasure of driving my Mercedes every day for the last 10 years. It's as good as the day I bought it and when I go to sell it I'll have paid less for it year-over-year, than I ever did on the myriad el-cheap-O's I used to drive. Where I used to replace my shoes every year, or so, I have had my current pair of shoes going on 4 years and have experienced more comfort than I had imagined possible in a shoe up till that point. And my T-shirts? They used to fade and grow thin after a few washes and I'd donate them or throw them out and have to re-buy them. Today, I still have T-shirts that look almost new that I've worn regularly for 7 years. I still have one I wore to my brother's wedding rehearsal 9 years ago.

    All this is a very long way of saying that, amortized over time, buying quality is often cheaper (and almost always more pleasurable) than buying the first thing you can afford.

    Now, I've built my share of PC's. I enjoy picking through catalogues and eBay auctions and getting the best bang for my buck. But, those are my hobby machines. My TrixBox. My MythTV. My fun stuff. My main system is (currently) a Dual G5 Power Mac that I bought refurb'ed shortly after they came out. Even then, it cost me more than $1,000, but I've had it almost 5 years now and It's still doing it's job well. My neighbor just gave me his 3rd Dell in 5 years (a trade for re-installing Windows so many times). He's spent way more on all those systems than I did on my one and has had no end to his aggravation. I sit down at my system (that I've never had to re-install) and get my work done. Would I like to get a cool new 8-way Intel system? Sure. No doubt. But I don't *need* it yet, and I haven't saved up for it yet. It's budgeted for this fall - yay! :-D

    Some people can get by just fine with the cheapest piece of crap Dell or Walmart sells. It looks like crap, it's loaded with useless crap, it's made with the cheapest parts that can be had, it's "settling" for the lowest common denominator. Like the cheap screwdriver, it can get the job done, but you wind up fighting it every step of the way. Their entire experience with computers is based on that. They are used to it. They expect it. It's sad.

    There is something special that you experience the first time you pick up a professional tool. The hammer feels more balanced. The screwdriver turns the screws with surprisingly little effo

    --
    "terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
  22. Re:It really is preference by Bodrius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Perhaps it also has to do with the fact that Mac laptops are damn good PC laptops too... and some people are willing to pay the premium to have both a very nice OSX laptop and a great WinPC laptop that's not about to break in 12 months.

    I've had experiences with my share of laptop manufacturers over time - with differing levels of disappointment - and I've seen paper machie constructions with more structural integrity than some Dell laptops.

    I'm rather happy with my Lenovo these days. It's pretty solid and fast enough.

    But from using current Mac laptops, I've been impressed at how well they work as a WinPC laptop (runs Vista better than any other I've tried), and the quality of hardware / design.

    There's lots of competition in the PC mobile market.

    But there's not that much competition for good and durable PCs in that market as one would like.

    --
    Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
  23. It's mis-leading anyway by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Personally I think the claim is mis-leading anyway. The category is narrowly defined as not only over 1000, but also bought retail. So it's crafted to exclude all the expensive workstations and servers bought by corporations, since they don't usually just drive a truck to WalMart to buy them retail.

    It's a bit like saying that Joe is the world leader in selling over-$1000 cats by Ebay and air mail. Sure, he only sold one on Ebay, but he's the only guy who sedated the cat and sent it by air mail. The rest of the people bought their cats face to face, or had them delivered by courier in a few cases. Narrow it down to Ebay and air mail, and, bam, Joe has 100% of that market.

    Better invest in Joe. In fact, this year he found two stray kittens in his backyard, and plans to sell them both on Ebay by air mail. That's 100% year-on-year growth, baby. At this rate, in 20 year, Joe will ship over 1 million cats yearly. As a savvy investor, you don't want to miss _that_ boat.

    In other words, it's just a PR masturbation exercise.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:It's mis-leading anyway by servognome · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally I think the claim is mis-leading anyway. The category is narrowly defined as not only over 1000, but also bought retail. So it's crafted to exclude all the expensive workstations and servers bought by corporations, since they don't usually just drive a truck to WalMart to buy them retail.
      I think that's a good way to define high end computers sold to average consumers. You intentionally want to exclude corporations if you are looking at the consumer purchases.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    2. Re:It's mis-leading anyway by Hal_Porter · · Score: 3, Funny
      Mod parent up. Insightful and this makes me laugh for some reason -

      It's a bit like saying that Joe is the world leader in selling over-$1000 cats by Ebay and air mail. Sure, he only sold one on Ebay, but he's the only guy who sedated the cat and sent it by air mail. The rest of the people bought their cats face to face, or had them delivered by courier in a few cases. Narrow it down to Ebay and air mail, and, bam, Joe has 100% of that market. Maybe I've spent too much time looking at code, but it makes me think

      typedef enum
      CAT_DELIVERY_METHOD_FACE_TO_FACE=0,
      CAT_DELIVERY_METHOD_COURIER,
      CAT_DELIVERY_METHOD_AIRMAIL_SEDATED, /* (Added for PROJECT_JOE) */

      CAT_DELIVERY_MAX_LEGAL_US=1000, /* Later ones only used outside US */
      CAT_DELIVERY_GPS_GUIDED_SHOCK_COLLAR,

      CAT_DELIVERY_MAX_NON_LETHAL=2000, /* Past here, Cat is food, not pet */
      CAT_DELIVERY_AIRMAIL_FREEZE_DRIED,

      } CAT_DELIVERY_METHODS;

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    3. Re:It's mis-leading anyway by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Personally I think the claim is mis-leading anyway. The category is narrowly defined as not only over 1000, but also bought retail. So it's crafted to exclude all the expensive workstations and servers bought by corporations, since they don't usually just drive a truck to WalMart to buy them retail.

      Further... and I realize this is purely anecdotal:

      100% of the people I know with Macs bought them retail in an Apple store.

      0% of the people I know who have bought non-Mac PCs in the last 5+ years bought them retail. They bought them from a place like Dell online, built them from parts, had someone else build them from parts, etc.

      Obviously Best Buy is selling uncustomized non-Mac machines to someone retail or they wouldn't still be doing it, but I don't know the people who are buying them.

      Possibly, this says something about the appeal of the Apple store as a retail venue vs. as an online order venue. It's hard to say.

  24. Re:Another Mac sales tale by Tom90deg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A kind of similar tale for me. My college has a program where it "gives" the new students a laptop. It's a basic model, HP Compaq 6515b. Does it's job, not high end, but it does what it's supposed to. About a month before we got ours, we hear that the incoming semester received Macbooks. I've no idea what kind, but they were the same price as the Compaqs, so that may give you a ballpark.

    And let me tell you, my friends, were all sorts of pissed. I asked them why, because logicaly, if the whole school uses Windows PCs, having macs would only complicate matters. Their responce, and I'm not making this up.

    "Macs are pretty. I don't care how good they are, but they look nice. I feel like a REAL college student if I have a Mac on my desk."

    Shocked me, and nothing I said could convince them that they wanted a Mac because they were pretty. IF they wanted it because of ANY other reason, i'd been fine. But just because it's shiny...it was just beyond me. Apple sells image, which is why they have whole stores set up to show it off.

  25. Re:You get... by eiscir · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Firewire (400 in the MB, 400/800 in the MBP). Tiny built-in webcam and microphone. Built-in DVI-out. Built-in analog/digital (optical) audio in/out. Thin. Light. Near-silent operation. Fast boot. Slot loading drive (minus points for not having a DVD burner on the entry level MB, which is pretty cynical). Magsafe power adapter. Tiny power brick with built-in cable management. Multi-touch trackpad (better on MBP, but even the MB has two-finger scrolling and tap.) No stickers. No preloaded crapware. OS X.

  26. Style is money by Colin+Smith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Money is social status. It's the fact that it costs more and is out of reach of the mob that makes it stylish...

    If you buy a pair of ripped jeans which cost you $5 you are cheap and have no style. If you buy the same pair for $200 you are a superstar.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Style is money by Megaweapon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you buy a pair of ripped jeans which cost you $5 you are cheap and have no style.

      If you buy a pair of ripped jeans for $50 that look like they cost $5, though, then it's a fashion statement.

      --
      I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
    2. Re:Style is money by stewbacca · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Money is social status. It's the fact that it costs more and is out of reach of the mob that makes it stylish... I hate this mentality. Unfortunately, it is true in many cases (such as the torn jeans), but I have a hard time buying that logic when it comes to Apple products. First of all, Apple products have a tangible value to them, in that they are well crafted and work well. There is no joy in using Apple products because they are grungy, poorly designed or counter-culture.

      The mentality I really despise is that I use my iPhone at the coffee store because I'm some sort of "hipster" and I'm trying to impress everyone around me. Well here's a news flash, I'm not. I'm using my phone to access my email in a public place...where's the crime in that? This a far less worse crime than those idiot-borgs who walk around with the $49 blue tooth thing in their ear trying to impress how important they are upon us.

      Frankly, I (and most other Apple consumers I know) don't give a rat's ass about what other people think about our stuff.

    3. Re:Style is money by aclarke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, if you buy a $5 pair of ripped jeans then you are a trend setter. If you buy a $200 pair of ripped jeans then you are a trend follower.

      If you wear a pair of hot pink ripped cutoff jeans that you bought for $5 and nobody copies you, then you're just a weirdo.

      --

      www.clarke.ca
  27. Yes, but it's still misleading by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, but the intersection is still mis-leading. Percentage of retail _or_ percentage of over-1000 computers could say something. (If you do understand that you are talking about a particular niche, not about the company's overall profitability or market share.) But the intersection is just a narrowly crafted niche, for PR masturbation reasons.

    It's like saying that Moraelin's Fairies won the most games played on a rainy Tuesday under artificial lighting. They have a whole two games won under those conditions, while everyone else has at best one win that's on a rainy day _and_ tuesday _and_ played at night. It's trivia, at best. It doesn't make it the best team in any actual category that matters, it just crafts an artificial niche to make my team look good.

    And probably more importantly, a tell-tale sign of a PR masturbation exercise, is that even that niche doesn't really support the conclusion they try to feed you. ""If you don't give people a choice [in the Apple stores], people will spend more."" Really? Exactly which part of that percentage supports that conclusion? Did they compare before and after a price hike, or what? Did Apple try to have cheap computers too, and people were going for those instead?

    But even that wouldn't be visible, if you only look at the over-1000 segment. You need an entirely different sample to make that point.

    No, it's very likely just a PR exercise masquerading as news.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  28. Re:WinMac Fanboy Haiku Ceremony. by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 3, Funny

    willyhill, you are a worse blight on Slashdot than the plague of twitter posts which you go on about.

    Are you a short perl script?

    You certainly sound like one, as you repeat just about the entire post over and over, it seems in response to any post by twitter.

  29. Re:Price != High End by koinu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    FACT Apples have always been about the same OR BETTER priced compared to equal PC's Exactly. I once wanted to order a HDD which failed. I opened up the case and have seen an ordinary Hitachi 250GB drive with SATA. Apple wanted about 3 times the price, because they say they "test them very thoroughly and this is not such crap that other PC customers get". Yeah right... do I look that naive? As if they got special HDDs with blessings from Buddha personally.

    FACT Apple has always been at the top of the list for quality and customer service Exactly. I waited 2 weeks for the HDD replacement in my Xserve RAID system. This was an expensive "applecare" contract. This contract said, someone would come and replace the drive. Instead the HDD was shipped. They also wanted the failed disk back.

    FACT one of the reasons Apple is doing so well right now is Redmond fanboys are buying Macs to run Vista on...even the PC mags agree that MacBooks are the best windows machines out there. No. People buy Macs, because they feel somehow better. They want to have a moment of pride. Well, after short time, all the attention to the Mac is over, because everyone has to do their fucking work. Now, as you mention it. There are 2 colleagues here that have Macbooks Pro. So what? They still use MS-Windows XP on them.

    I have a simple FreeBSD notebook here and can do my work without MS-Windows.

    FACT sub $1000 PCs are crap..thats why most people that go to Dell's site to buy one of those $500 PCs leave spending around $1500 Who the hell buys complete PCs? I recently upgraded my old PC for just $300. It is over twice as fast as my last PC. And btw, I can construct an entire PC, part by part, and it runs without any problems for just $200 more. And it has a very decent quality, it is not comparable with any PC that companies like Dell sell (I have not single no-name component). Go and buy 1GB RAM more in Apple shop. They charge you about 10x as much. My PC parts are carefully chosen. They are not crap at all. I simply choose good quality prodcuts and try to find out which have a decent price at the moment according to their speed and power requirements. You won't have this choice with Apples.
  30. Re:Price != High End by apt-get+moo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    your graphics designers are tards...video cards have almost no effect on 2d graphic programs. oh and MacBooks with 3D cards are called MacBook Pros ...and no sorry they don't have battery sucking video cards designed for gaming...Apple builds computers for grown-ups For your interest, there are also 3D graphics designers. While I have to agree that laptops aren't the best platform for rendering these graphics, Apple just doesn't offer any viable products for this special task.

    FACT Apples have always been about the same OR BETTER priced compared to equal PC's

    I don't know why I spend my time on an obvious fanboy, but this is just ridiculous. Do 800+ bucks RAM-upgrades ring a bell?
    And the rest of your FACTs sound just as plausible as Microsoft's 'Get The Facts'
    --
    ...."Have you mooed today?"...
  31. Goes along with the "Engineer Shortage" article... by Upaut · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In that Apple actually pays computer scientists, engineers, etc. a decent wage. And they are run by managers that actually give a damn about the job that their team does.

    So we get things that actually work better out of the box, and mature well over time. Hell, each apple product I have bought has lasted me 4+ years. And then I only "upgrade" because I can afford to upgrade the storage of the laptops myself, increase the RAM significantly, and a fresh install, and give it to a member of my family. Who are shocked that the finest computer in their house was not the dell running vista, but the four-year-old mac... Gaining new Apple users, and when they will buy a new computer in a few years, they might decide to go with the brand that has lasting value.

    Seriously, if you want to pay less, then you devalue their employees. Make 'em more like Microsoft minions, expendable and not working together at any point. Sure you get the product eventually... And its cheaper.... But customers will most spend the rest of that products life complaining about it.

    And no, I am not bashing the "free" concept of Linux, because Linux is a passion. One might spend a few days working out a glitch they encountered and submitting the fix. Then they feel great about accomplishing something no one else has done, and might go on to mend other things, or add other features. By keeping it a hobby that all are free to contribute to, people contribute for free.... And if we added up all those man hours on our favorite distro in a given year, it would be a fortune to pay.

    --
    3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
  32. Doesn't surprise me, but it is significant by qazwart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Here's what has been pointed out so far:

    * Apple has such a big market share for the $1000+ market because most PC are cheaper.
    * True, but if you deck out a regular PC to match Apple's specs, it'll be around the same price.

    You're all missing something rather significant. Apple makes very competitive machines, but they don't make all those low or no margin PCs that other manufactures make to boost sales and act as a loss leader for their more expensive models.

    And, because of that Apple is doing quite well. Thank you very much. Apple could greatly increase their market share if they started selling low cost PCs. But, if Apple started doing that, they'd be lowering their profit margins. And, that would make the Apple stores unprofitable. Apple would be forced to close the Apple stores and cut back on customer service in general. That would make Apple just another Dell or HP.

    Compare an Apple store to a typical PC retailer. There are dozens of Macs all running, and they're all connected to the Internet. iPhones and iPods are everywhere. Sales people don't chase you away if you're just browsing. Heck, browsing is highly encouraged. And, salespeople actually know something about the product. Apple service is highly rated by almost all consumer surveys.

    In other words, Apple sells PCs that they can actually make a pretty profit on, and then use that profit to build an image that encourages people to spend the extra dough for an Apple PC. All this makes Apple (get ready for this...) more profitable than any other computer or electronics company - ever. Back in 1998, I bought $1000 of Apple when Steve Jobs took over. I thought I was clever when I sold it after a few months for about $5000. Well, if I was still holding on to that stock today, it would be worth over $1,500,000. Duh! Over the past decade Apple's stock has outperformed Google.

    Whether or not you are a Drinker-of-the Koolade or an Apple Basher, you have to look at Apple as a way to be highly profitable in a commodity business. You don't need a MacBook to appreciate this aspect of the business. Anyone who is interested in running a company should pay attention to Apple's playbook. Apple caters to the higher end of the market, but unlike companies like Bose and Mercedes, which also have a similar strategy, Apple's products are not prime luxury goods that only a few can consider buying. A more significant number is that Apple has broken the 10% mark of market share and is the third largest manufacture of PCs. And, that's pretty hard to bash.

  33. Re:Free Apple! by Arkham · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you have a recent box, just download and install kalyway or leo4all. Free mac for your PC. If by "free" you mean illegal, then sure. You can say the same thing about any piece of software, but most people have at least some reservation about stealing.

    When I was in high school, and even college, I pirated software. But as an adult with a job, I either buy the software or I don't use it. People can make the case for buying a copy of OS X and then using one of the hacked kernels off the internet to get it to boot on non-Apple hardware, but let's face it -- most people who download these iso images are not doing that -- they're criminals.
    --
    - Vincit qui patitur.
  34. Re:It really is preference by stewbacca · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Ignoring the "My anecdotal evidence blah blah blah" guy's comments, you make an excellent point. It is easy to show that transitioning to OS X is very painless (but not the other way around). I did so in my grad thesis! The only two issues for new Mac users in my research was the concept of closing a window doesn't quit the program, and pushing the "maximize" button doesn't make the window go full screen like in Windows. One other minor quirk is that PC users have a hard time adapting to the one-menu at the top concept, but this was found only in more advanced users.

    Other issues I noted really demonstrate that learning the "windows way" really limits the user. Example: you don't HAVE to close the document you have open to move it or rename it in MacOS, even though you've grown accustom to having to do so in Windows. I won't even get into the way Windows users over-think installing and uninstalling apps!

  35. Re:Why bother with Safari, by arminw · · Score: 3, Informative

    ....Apple's big selling point is it's software.....

    Wrong! Apple's big selling point is a whole, not half of a computer. Apple sells an integrated system the sum of which is greater than it parts. When you buy a car, you get a whole vehicle. You don't pay extra for the engine or the brakes. When you buy a toaster, the cord for it comes with it. All products EXCEPT computers, other than Apple's, come as a completed whole working device, where the user doesn't have to spend extra money, such as PC users have to do. Mac users don't have to waste money on extra security software, for example.

    People are willing to spend money to get a complete working system. In the end that is cheaper than having to waste valuable time to periodically have to clean crapware off the system, after having already spent time to clean up the initial, performance robbing garbage, put on the box by the likes of Dell or HP, before the customer even turns it on. MS and the PC makers seem to feel that the users time is not worth much if anything at all. There are a lot of folks who do value their time to do productive work or have fun. They don't want to spend that precious time futzing with a balky computer.

    --
    All theory is gray