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Microsoft Patents 'Proactive' Virus Protection

An anonymous reader writes "InfoWeek blogger Alex Wolfe wonders whether Microsoft will go after McAfee, Symantec, Trend Micro, and Kaspersky for software royalties for proactive virus protection software. The technique enables security software to protect a PC against malware which isn't yet in the antivirus definition file, by comparing whether the new malware is similar to an old virus. Wolfe reports that Microsoft has been awarded U.S. patent 7,376,970 for "System and method for proactive computer virus protection," but that McAfee, Symantec, Trend Micro, and Kaspersky have all been selling products implementing proactive virus protection for years before Microsoft even filed for the patent. Writes Wolfe: "One often wonders about software patents. I sure wonder about this one. I also wonder whether McAfee, Symantec, Trend Micro, and Kaspersky are also going to be hearing from their friends in Redmond real soon"."

169 comments

  1. Prior art by Dancindan84 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If they get challenged prior art is obvious in this case and it wouldn't last 5 minutes if MS tried to extort them using it.

    --
    "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
    1. Re:Prior art by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, they'll get their license fees, or they'll release Windows v8 with proper security in place, ruining all these vendors businesses overnight.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:Prior art by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Apologies for my blatant absence of the apostrophe; I did Foundation English GCSE.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:Prior art by Dancindan84 · · Score: 4, Funny

      they'll release Windows v8 with proper security in place That made me giggle.
      --
      "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
    4. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually I think that Microsoft SHOULD be banned from the Virus/Malware protection market.

      It is their DUTY to release that kind of thing FREE as they all deal with fixing their own products flaws.

    5. Re:Prior art by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Right, so what's their point? Why would MS patent something that doesn't look enforceable? Do they even have any product plans building on it? Are they simply trolling?

      1) build insecure OS
      2) patent proactive antivirus
      3) ???
      4) profit

      And on a different note, what good is our patent system if it can't sniff out obvious discrepancies like this? Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe their patent is very narrow and does not come into conflict with pre-existing solutions.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    6. Re:Prior art by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      That was a serious comment!

      :D

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    7. Re:Prior art by Clandestine_Blaze · · Score: 5, Interesting

      After reading the article, I'm still left to wonder how the patent was awarded in the first place. The article states that Microsoft applied for the patent in 2004, and that a simple search on Google would yield several "proactive" virus protection software since 2003.

      I'm not familiar with the patent process, especially in the realm of software patents, but isn't there someone from the patent office that would investigate something like this? I mean, we're not talking about some obscure college research project, we're talking about Symantec, Trend Micro, and McAfee here.

    8. Re:Prior art by nurb432 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      But it still costs $ to fight it, and sometimes its easier/cheaper just to pay up even when you are in the right.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    9. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Are you saying that there is one and only one way to implement proactive virus protection?

      It all depends on how broad Microsoft's claims are.

    10. Re:Prior art by Dancindan84 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This problem with the patent system has been brought up many times before. Clerks without technical knowledge often let patents that shouldn't slip through. Sometimes patent trolls abuse this to extort companies into paying them royalties because it's either cheaper or because they don't have the money for the legal battle to fight it. This isn't one of those times. The prior art is obvious, the companies have the means to fight and probably would fight as it's part of their primary business model.

      The only thing that makes any sense is that Microsoft is planning an AV package for Windows that includes this and they're trying to discourage any AV companies from coming after them over it. Still doesn't make much sense in that case.

      --
      "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
    11. Re:Prior art by jav1231 · · Score: 5, Funny

      THAT made ME giggle!

    12. Re:Prior art by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is their DUTY to release that kind of thing FREE as they all deal with fixing their own products flaws.
      Or, more correctly, their software shouldn't be so exploitable.

      If Microsoft really wants to release a great OS product for Windows V8, they need stop worrying about vendor lock-in, "checklist features", DRM, eye candy, and other useless stuff that they focused on for Vista and focus all of their attention on making the OS secure. Start from the ground up if they need to.

      In the end, anti-virus protection should be more about system integrity checking and less about pattern matching for known viruses.

      Then again, they've never done that before, so why should we expect them to start now?
    13. Re:Prior art by Vectronic · · Score: 0, Troll

      That, plus Microsoft has used both McAfee and TrendMicro services in the past, for Hotmail, et al.

      Maybe Microsoft isn't attacking, maybe they are defending their partners, because they have more weight than there "little buddies" and its actually the VirusScanner developers that are calling for this patent. That way it can remain the "Big 5" (or however many)... and those Big 5 can go against new and/or smaller VirusScanners...

      Although, if Microsoft does plan on going after any of them... I hope they go after Symantec first, and are successful... and then, people will be outraged, and Microsofts doesnt go any further... I'd see that as a "Win Win"...

    14. Re:Prior art by clang_jangle · · Score: 2

      Parent has a valid point, whomever modded him troll is trolling. MS should indeed be required to provide any such implementation as part of the sale of the OS. Imagine the uproar if Apple started charging for OS X security fixes, or if Linus decided to put a proprietary license on some security patches and charge for them.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    15. Re:Prior art by mqduck · · Score: 0, Troll

      "If they get challenged prior art is obvious in this case and it shouldn't last 5 minutes if MS tried to extort them using it."

      Fixed that for you.

      --
      Property is theft.
    16. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You missed one.

    17. Re:Prior art by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This problem with the patent system has been brought up many times before. Clerks without technical knowledge often let patents that shouldn't slip through. Sometimes patent trolls abuse this to extort companies into paying them royalties because it's either cheaper or because they don't have the money for the legal battle to fight it. This isn't one of those times. The prior art is obvious, the companies have the means to fight and probably would fight as it's part of their primary business model. I sort of agree, but I'm having EXTREME difficulty understanding how a patent inspector is put on this little project and somehow does NOT know about the prior art? WTF!

      If they don't know enough about computers to know how obvious the prior art is, WHY are the involved with computer software patent applications in the first place? Just how fscking incompetent is the USPTO? I can't see any other way to describe this but pure, unadulterated, and blatant incompetence.

      wow, just wow
    18. Re:Prior art by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Obvious ? The result may be obvious, but I'm sure they can patent the particular method they're using. That's the beauty of how fucked up the patent system is today.

      I remember using so-called "heuristic" scanners back in the early 90's on my BBS. I can't remember the name, but I had this thingamabob that ran every file through several virus scanners, and one of them had this fuzzy virus detection as its prime feature.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    19. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you serious? Vista is very secure. One of the major complaints people make about Vista is due to running applications that haven't been designed for it. It's so secure that it is consistently asking the user permission to perform operations and that's what's annoying most users.

    20. Re:Prior art by Bloodoflethe · · Score: 1, Troll

      WHY are the involved with computer software patent applications in the first place? We are talking about a government post right?

      Just checking.
      --
      "Little is much when little you need."
    21. Re:Prior art by peragrin · · Score: 1

      I am fairly certain i saw a patent on collating and stapling papers so they all end up the same way and in the proper order.

      yes the Patent office is broken. The only way to fix it is to ENFORCE the rules they have and to stop bending them. Under patent rules computer programs while directly not excluded mathematical equations are. all a computer program is, is a series of mathematical equations.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    22. Re:Prior art by fivefiftyone · · Score: 1

      I showed this to my colleagues and we all had a good laugh. I guess they'll introduce WinFS, strip out all the legacy API's and replace Powershell with Python too eh? Put down the crack pipe sweetheart. It's affecting your judgement.

    23. Re:Prior art by Yogiz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Bothering the user all the time does not make the System more secure. Quite the opposite. Users don't even bother to think anymore but just click 'Allow' for everything. Also you must not have read the actual security reports. Vista is no more secure then XP.

    24. Re:Prior art by myspace-cn · · Score: 1

      System integrity checking will be tough with all the applications that run on top of windows. What about an application that was recently released? It's a good idea but I think it's impractical to cover the whole state of the data and applications. Someone might be able to memorize some common large applications and document the files spewed all over that comprise that application, but not all applications all the time. What about new files of unknown origin, you'd literally need to know where each one came from. Not to forget that some files themselves might be exploitable without modification. With a system that say has 4,462,193 files on it's C:\ drive it will take you a good amount of time just to know there are even that many files let alone if any of them are bad, or exploitable.

      More power to pro-active defense, when a directory is the same name as a file, a bad file can't be written unless the directory is removed first. Not allowing things to be written to the registry, and not allowing files to be spewed everywhere without first knowing the file is proper is a good idea.

      As far as the MS patent, what can one say but the patent office screwed the pooch again.

      Others here suggested that MS give any kind of AV away free, I think that's a good Idea as well, I miss the simplicity of "msav." MS might be able to protect their own files as they know all of them, they know the count, the size, the location, but there's really no way in hell they can know what some programmer releases on a daily basis. To blindly remove such files would be unacceptable.

    25. Re:Prior art by drsmithy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, they'll get their license fees, or they'll release Windows v8 with proper security in place, ruining all these vendors businesses overnight.

      What deficiencies in OS security do you think antivirus tools are addressing ?

    26. Re:Prior art by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Don't feed the trolls. Read what he wrote. He's obviously one of those Microsoft astroturfers that's been here the last couple of years.

    27. Re:Prior art by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Others here suggested that MS give any kind of AV away free, I think that's a good Idea as well, I miss the simplicity of "msav." MS might be able to protect their own files as they know all of them, they know the count, the size, the location, but there's really no way in hell they can know what some programmer releases on a daily basis. To blindly remove such files would be unacceptable.
      Well, if applications were forced to use MSI installers, Microsoft could make the setup routines such that all of thati information was logged. Furthermore, the system should, by default, refuse to install applications that aren't signed with a certificate from a reputable root CA.
    28. Re:Prior art by geminidomino · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, they'll get their license fees, or they'll release Windows v8 with proper security in place, ruining all these vendors businesses overnight.

      What deficiencies in OS security do you think antivirus tools are addressing ?

      Poor user-level access controls (apparently partly addressed in Vista) and mind-blowing abuse of kernelspace come to mind immediately. I'm sure there are others, like why the hell a website plugin can result in files being autoexecuted on boot...

    29. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free = anti-trust violation.

      Though no one argued when they released free file & print sharing and networking ...

    30. Re:Prior art by jackharrer · · Score: 1

      You're joking right? So who's going to pay for all that signing?
      Not to mention that that's been in use for years and hasn't changed much. Haven't seen pop-up recently asking for permission to install files from unknown sources, i.e. not signed?

      --

      "an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
    31. Re:Prior art by ednopantz · · Score: 1

      1) Let me guess, you don't actually use Vista. The volume of complaints about UAC is usually inversely related to a user's actual experience with Vista.

      2) Which security reports are you reading? Everything I have seen shows it to be an improvement over XP sp2.

      And no, I don't work for MS, I just can't stand it when ignorance is touted as wisdom. Which probably means I shouldn't read Slashdot.

    32. Re:Prior art by Gizmoguy · · Score: 1

      Yes, but they're never going to do that; security doesn't sell OSes, it's eye-candy that does. 60% of the people I know don't have a firewall, or understand why one is important. The end-user market doesn't understand why security is important, or why they should have it, and it's why crappy companies such as Microsoft and Apple have managed to monopolise the market; they give people what they understand and want, not what they need, and it's exactly the same reason more people don't use F/OSS software/OSes like Linux.

      --
      -- There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, And those who don't.
    33. Re:Prior art by XenoPhage · · Score: 1

      MS should indeed be required to provide any such implementation as part of the sale of the OS. Imagine the uproar if Apple started charging for OS X security fixes, or if Linus decided to put a proprietary license on some security patches and charge for them. Well, I'm certainly confused.. Microsoft is charging for security fixes?

      The unfortunate truth of the matter is that this is an operating system, and as such, it is incredibly complex. Any OS is going to have flaws. Granted, there seem to be more of them in the case of Windows. I do, however, think that the majority of the problems with security in Windows stem from the insane coupling of applications Microsoft tends to do.

      Regardless, while I believe that all vendors should be responsible for their code, and provide security updates for free, there is a limitation there. First and foremost, there is almost no way to deliver a 100% secure solution, so there will likely be the need to patch the OS at some point. Anti-virus programs help to prevent those weaknesses from being exploited during the period where no patch exists, so they will probably be around forever.

      Second, software tends to get outdated pretty quickly, and vendors don't want to support it indefinitely. So, there has to be some sort of expiration date associated with the software. If you use it beyond the expiration date, security is your own problem.
      --
      XenoPhage
      Technological Musings
    34. Re:Prior art by Stewie241 · · Score: 1

      I didn't read the patent, or the article, but in my understanding Microsoft could have a claim to this patent. The patent shouldn't be any form of proactive virus protection, but some novel way of doing proactive virus protection that hasn't been done before. It is possible that they have developed a new way of doing this and for this they could earn a patent. Whether they have or not, I do not know.

    35. Re:Prior art by Tikkun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the OS worked as promised they wouldn't have anyone to sell the upgrade to in 3-5 years.

    36. Re:Prior art by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm certainly confused.. Microsoft is charging for security fixes?


      Anti-malware from the same company that created the OS? That would certainly be charging for security updates. I can't see how that wouldn't be a conflict of interest.

      Then again with all the talk about subscription and per use and modulear development models, maybe they plan to sell one or more future versions of Windows modularly. But how can they even promote the idea of selling extra security with a straight face after all the hype they spewed for years about Vista? Well, it is entertaining at least to watch them (and some of their apologists) sink further into blithering irrationality.
      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    37. Re:Prior art by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Poor user-level access controls (apparently partly addressed in Vista) [...]

      "Addressed" in all versions of Windows NT.

      [...] and mind-blowing abuse of kernelspace [...]

      For example ?

      I'm sure there are others, like why the hell a website plugin can result in files being autoexecuted on boot...

      Because the user allowed it to, same way any program can.

    38. Re:Prior art by fuliginous · · Score: 1

      Just like some countries require companies (industry) to use water from down stream of where they returned it to the river perhaps the concept can apply to Microsoft.

      They can be given one year before they are no longer allowed to use virus protection on any of their corporate machines (OK perhaps they can have on on the mail server to prevent them getting out).

    39. Re:Prior art by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Yeah? I'm apparently told by my wife that I'm not allowed to giggle. I can only chuckle... giggling isn't something a man should do.

    40. Re:Prior art by XenoPhage · · Score: 1

      Anti-malware from the same company that created the OS? That would certainly be charging for security updates. I can't see how that wouldn't be a conflict of interest. Anti-Malware is a prevention mechanism, not a fix. A fix would be a direct patch to the OS itself, preventing the problem from occurring to begin with. Then again with all the talk about subscription and per use and modulear development models, maybe they plan to sell one or more future versions of Windows modularly. But how can they even promote the idea of selling extra security with a straight face after all the hype they spewed for years about Vista? Well, it is entertaining at least to watch them (and some of their apologists) sink further into blithering irrationality. How would you sell Windows in a modular manner? You mean de-couple the software from the kernel, leaving just a raw kernel as the OS itself and sell other stuff (IE, Solitare, GUI, etc) as add-ons?
      --
      XenoPhage
      Technological Musings
    41. Re:Prior art by ailnlv · · Score: 1

      That made me giggle. Funny, that made me cry
    42. Re:Prior art by goofyspouse · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who thinks this particular V8 will probably be firing on only 5 or 6 cylinders?

    43. Re:Prior art by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Poor user-level access controls (apparently partly addressed in Vista) [...]

      "Addressed" in all versions of Windows NT.

      Evidently not, since a user getting a virus could infect the system files, and not just that user's files. That means the user either had elevated privs (which means that "solution" fails it) or the default privs were too broad (which means the same thing), or the privs were side-stepped (ditto.)

      [...] and mind-blowing abuse of kernelspace [...]

      For example ?

      Things that belong in kernel space:

      Schedulers and process management
      Direct Hardware interfaces/Drivers
      etc...

      Things that DO NOT belong in kernel space:

      Browser rendering engines
      GUIs
      Shared libraries
      etc...

      I'm sure there are others, like why the hell a website plugin can result in files being autoexecuted on boot...

      Because the user allowed it to, same way any program can.

      If it's at the point where a user can unwittingly allow overwriting operating system files via a web browser, the developer needs to stop writing OS software NOW and go back to PHP.
    44. Re:Prior art by Helix666 · · Score: 0

      and we can't have that, can we?

      --
      Oh, the irony... "Anonymous Coward: If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!"
    45. Re:Prior art by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Evidently not, since a user getting a virus could infect the system files, and not just that user's files.

      Only if that user has write privileges to those files (just like every other multiuser OS).

      That means the user either had elevated privs (which means that "solution" fails it) [...]

      How so ? Because the user is able to elevate their privilege levels when necessary ?

      Things that DO NOT belong in kernel space: [...]

      My mistake, I was assuming you had some vague idea of what you were talking about. The "browser rendering engine" has never run in kernel space (nor has the GUI, or "shared libraries" for that matter). They are user space applications and run in the security context of the user that started them (except IE on Vista, which runs with reduced privileges).

      If it's at the point where a user can unwittingly allow overwriting operating system files via a web browser, the developer needs to stop writing OS software NOW and go back to PHP.

      Firefox running with appropriate privileges can overwrite "operating system files" on, for example, both Linux and OSX.

      No remotely current version of IE will do what you claim by design, without user intervention to modify privileges levels, or a software bug, both situations which apply equally to all OSes.

    46. Re:Prior art by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      It is their DUTY to release that kind of thing FREE as they all deal with fixing their own products flaws.

      AV products don't fix OS flaws, they fix user flaws.

    47. Re:Prior art by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      Anti-Malware is a prevention mechanism, not a fix. A fix would be a direct patch to the OS itself, preventing the problem from occurring to begin with.


      That's a very narrow definition of anti-malware, but even so I think the point is that if MS is allowed to double-dip like that, where's their motivation to produce a stand-alone secure product?

      How would you sell Windows in a modular manner? You mean de-couple the software from the kernel, leaving just a raw kernel as the OS itself and sell other stuff (IE, Solitare, GUI, etc) as add-ons?


      I read somewhere they are considering selling a super-basic windows system which allows the customer to purchase more advanced capabilities through modular add-ons. Purpose-built modules for media center, advanced networking, etc. Something like what Apple does with QT and iLife, I suppose. Except with Apple you never get charged extra for security.
      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    48. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... confuse "troll" with "disagree" much?

    49. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take that back.

      Confuse "troll" with "I'm sick of this joke" much?

    50. Re:Prior art by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      Yeah? I'm apparently told by my wife that I'm not allowed to giggle. I can only chuckle... giggling isn't something a man should do. Okay you know it was like a joke, right?

      Is there anything you're wife lets you do?

    51. Re:Prior art by Nullav · · Score: 1

      Is there anything you're wife lets you do? To be herself, apparently.
      --
      I just read Slashdot for the articles.
    52. Re:Prior art by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      DOH! "your" not "you're." Spell from the eyes. :( I suck, I know.

    53. Re:Prior art by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Evidently not, since a user getting a virus could infect the system files, and not just that user's files.

      Only if that user has write privileges to those files (just like every other multiuser OS).

      Except in the other multiuser OSes, that's not the DEFAULT. If it was done correctly, badware started up in the registry (which is an entirely seperate misfeature) would still run with user perms and thus not be able to modify those files.

      That means the user either had elevated privs (which means that "solution" fails it) [...]

      How so ? Because the user is able to elevate their privilege levels when necessary ?

      Elevate their privs when necessary: Good
      Elevate privs when not necessary without user interaction: NOT good

      Things that DO NOT belong in kernel space: [...]

      My mistake, I was assuming you had some vague idea of what you were talking about. The "browser rendering engine" has never run in kernel space (nor has the GUI, or "shared libraries" for that matter). They are user space applications and run in the security context of the user that started them (except IE on Vista, which runs with reduced privileges).

      Except that either "security context" means something other than what you think it means, or said "security context" is broken, or you're wrong. See above about modifying system files.

      As for what has/has not ever been running in kernel space, look at MS' own statements re IE during the antitrust trial. Or the fact that relatively simple upgrades (WMP) require OS reboots.

      They are doing it wrong.

      If it's at the point where a user can unwittingly allow overwriting operating system files via a web browser, the developer needs to stop writing OS software NOW and go back to PHP.

      Firefox running with appropriate privileges can overwrite "operating system files" on, for example, both Linux and OSX.

      No remotely current version of IE will do what you claim by design, without user intervention to modify privileges levels, or a software bug, both situations which apply equally to all OSes.

      They keyword difference between what I said and what you said is "unwittingly." If I want to overwrite a kernel module with firefox, I have to:
      a) Run firefox as root/under sudo
      or
      b) chmod o+w module.ko as root/under sudo

      Same goes for the setup files in /etc, or just about anything that lives outside of $HOME or /var/tmp

    54. Re:Prior art by drsmithy · · Score: 2

      Except in the other multiuser OSes, that's not the DEFAULT. If it was done correctly, badware started up in the registry (which is an entirely seperate misfeature) would still run with user perms and thus not be able to modify those files.

      Applications started from the user's registry hive run as that user. Applications from the system's registry hive run as whatever user they are able to.

      This is no different to any other OS. If you start something on Linux from your .bashrc, it will run as you. If it gets started from an initscript or /etc/rc.local, it will run as a specified user (typically root).

      Elevate their privs when necessary: Good
      Elevate privs when not necessary without user interaction: NOT good

      I'm not sure why you think the latter happens in Windows, but it does not.

      Except that either "security context" means something other than what you think it means, or said "security context" is broken, or you're wrong. See above about modifying system files.

      No, you just don't have a clue what you're talking about. Processes running as a user can't modify files that user doesn't have permissions to. Further, processes can't magically elevate themselves to get sufficient privileges without user interaction.

      As for what has/has not ever been running in kernel space, look at MS' own statements re IE during the antitrust trial.

      Their statements say nothing about whether or not IE runs in kernel space (and it most certainly does not).

      Or the fact that relatively simple upgrades (WMP) require OS reboots.

      Again, a meaningless measure for making technical assessments.

      They are doing it wrong.

      How would you know ? You clearly don't even have basic grasp on how Windows works.

      They keyword difference between what I said and what you said is "unwittingly." If I want to overwrite a kernel module with firefox, I have to:
      a) Run firefox as root/under sudo
      or
      b) chmod o+w module.ko as root/under sudo
      Same goes for the setup files in /etc, or just about anything that lives outside of $HOME or /var/tmp

      Yes. Just like Windows. What's your point ?

    55. Re:Prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are aware that their "proper security" won't last a week, aren't you?

    56. Re:Prior art by XenoPhage · · Score: 1

      That's a very narrow definition of anti-malware, but even so I think the point is that if MS is allowed to double-dip like that, where's their motivation to produce a stand-alone secure product? Where was their motivation prior to OneCare being around? Whether they're in the anti-malware market or not, I'm not sure they've had such a great track record for security to begin with...

      I do have to give them some kudos on the monthly scanner they provide via windowsupdate, though.. Of course, I have no idea what it does, as I don't think I've ever seen it run. But then again, my system is clean, so I don't get much in the way of anti-virus alerts either.. I read somewhere they are considering selling a super-basic windows system which allows the customer to purchase more advanced capabilities through modular add-ons. Purpose-built modules for media center, advanced networking, etc. Something like what Apple does with QT and iLife, I suppose. Except with Apple you never get charged extra for security. Interesting.. I hadn't heard that particular rumor.. Though, I guess it shouldn't surprise me.. They seem to be stripping more and more off the home versions..

      Does this mean the stripped down home version will still be like $200 and the ultimate version will end up being in the thousands?
      --
      XenoPhage
      Technological Musings
    57. Re:Prior art by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Yes. Just like Windows. What's your point ?

      My point is that if it was "Just like windows", then *nix would need to constantly be running performance-sapping on-access Antivirus and other "protection" software.

      They don't, so apparently your assessment is off somewhere.
  2. Didn't someone else already invent this ? by garett_spencley · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm certain I've heard of proactive virus protection before ... but where ?

    AH ! Now I remember !

    http://www.ubuntu.com/

    Clearly prior art.

    1. Re:Didn't someone else already invent this ? by mqduck · · Score: 0

      I hate to be pedantic, but that wouldn't fit this definition of "proactive" even by a stretch.

      --
      Property is theft.
    2. Re:Didn't someone else already invent this ? by teh*fink · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      --
      "I DARE you to make less sense!"
    3. Re:Didn't someone else already invent this ? by gzerphey · · Score: 1

      Seriously... whoever modded this offtopic has never seen Star Trek. Read the wikipedia page then mod appropriately.

      Possible suggestions are funny or insightful.

      --
      I don't have a microwave. I do, however, have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
    4. Re:Didn't someone else already invent this ? by mqduck · · Score: 1

      Sigh... Just because my point was pedantic and so maybe uninteresting, do you *really* have to give negative karma for it and encourage people not to read it? Do you really think you're contributing to Slashdot this way?

      --
      Property is theft.
  3. Forgot the "prior art" tag by xgr3gx · · Score: 0, Troll

    That's a pretty bad patent troll

    --
    Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
    1. Re:Forgot the "prior art" tag by Khuffie · · Score: 1

      Microsoft does have a habit of patenting obvious ideas so patent trolls don't get them and sue everyone around them. But of course, this is Slashdot, so let's all yell at Microsoft before they do anything. The real culprit here is the patent office: who the heck approved this?

    2. Re:Forgot the "prior art" tag by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Yes, because there's NOTHING in Microsoft's history that would lead ANYONE to believe they would use the clusterfuck that is "Intellectual Property" law as a cudgel.

  4. It still won't work. by khasim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It would be easy to circumvent by breaking the malware into multiple pieces and having one app load it piece by piece.

    If that is done right, then none of the pieces will be sufficiently like the known patterns to set off the alert.

    This is still all about matching against known patterns. That is NOT sufficient.

    1. Re:It still won't work. by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah but it means the viruses will be modular, and everybody knows modular is better.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
  5. A plea by getto+man+d · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Before this discussion turns into a patent debate I just want to say that good code would do Microsoft so much more good than these forays outside of Windows.

    Please, just please focus on the consumer again and release something the world can appreciate or spend every last dime trying to strangle Linux/Apple/Google/anything innovative that isn't yours.

    1. Re:A plea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "good code" isn't Microsoft's primary goal. That would be *money*. It's not that MS code is all that bad (it isn't!), but why not get extra money?! It's similar to "Mr. Hrwundi of the FIRST NATIONAL BANK of Burkina Fasso" - not the one who's asking is stupid, but the one who's giving. (read: AV-companies, sue MS's ass! users, don't use Windows). It's that simple.

  6. Won't that mean... by johosaphats · · Score: 4, Funny

    that the Windows set up will refuse to allow you to install Windows?

    1. Re:Won't that mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows isn't a virus, it's a bug.

    2. Re:Won't that mean... by johosaphats · · Score: 0

      I was thinking more along the lines of "The best way to keep Windows from getting a virus, is to not install it in the first place"

    3. Re:Won't that mean... by cjb658 · · Score: 1

      Windows isn't a virus, it's a bug.

      Yeah, viruses are small, free, and well-written.

  7. At least.... by jellie · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Microsoft has clear prior art in the market for "operating systems proactively affected by viruses." With this new patent, it's going to be able to proactively take over the entire proactive virus market!

  8. Ignoring the Business Decision by mpapet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Do you have any idea how much that would cost in legal fees? Antivirus Company XYZ gets a cease and desist from Microsoft with the bottom line being a $50,000/yr payout + units sold data to microsoft. Yes, sales data is part of the discovery to calculate damages. What better way to find out how big their business actually is?

    From a business perspective, that $50,000/yr is a heck of a lot less than going to court. It is a shakedown. A totally legal protection racket. Which is why software patents should simply die.

    Look at the Crackberry fiasco. RIM knew the patent litigation was a scam and couldn't get the patents invalidated fast enough before incurring HUGE legal expenses. At some point it became a super-priority most likely because politician's & policy wonks lives would be negatively affected by their Crackberry's being shut off.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Ignoring the Business Decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the Crackberry fiasco. RIM knew the patent litigation was a scam and couldn't get the patents invalidated fast enough before incurring HUGE legal expenses.

      Ummm, in case you didn't know, RIM is a large company with deep pockets. The patents were held by a small company.

      At some point it became a super-priority most likely because politician's & policy wonks lives would be negatively affected by their Crackberry's being shut off.

      I think the fact that RIM perjured themselves on the stand with obvious lies was more of a factor.

  9. Even ignoring the patent issues by solweil · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even ignoring the patent issues, I thought that the current problem is that viruses use encrypted payloads and redundant code to make sure they cannot be easily matched with known malware while retaining the same function. I don't see how this microsoft scheme, even if workable, will change the status quo.

    1. Re:Even ignoring the patent issues by snl2587 · · Score: 0

      I don't see how this microsoft scheme, even if workable, will change the status quo.

      It won't. But it sure looks good on paper to the technologically declined who are worried about their home PC security.

  10. Anyone else remember... by hyperz69 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    MSAV? Seriously. Microsoft does NOT have the best track record, but people are going to see microsoft and POW it's going to be installed. I guess at least it's not Norton. Though seriously, everytime I see windows, for every person I care about... they get a little AVGFREE action, and they never complain.

  11. Might not be a totally bad patent? by Tridus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From deeper in the patent: "In accordance with the invention, a virtual operating environment for simulating the execution of programs to determine if the programs are malware is created. The virtual operating environment confines potential malware so that the systems of the host operating environment will not be adversely effected during simulation. As a program is being simulated, a set of behavior signatures is generated. The collected behavior signatures are suitable for analysis to determine if the program is malware."

    So it looks like what its actually doing is letting the virus run in a virtual environment, watching it, then using heuristics to say "yep, thats probably a virus."

    The question on the patents validity becomes not if someone else has done "proactive" virus protection, but if they did it the same way. AFAIK Mcafee's stuff just watches the program while its actually running and says "hey this thing emailing itself to all your friends might be a virus." Thats similar, but patent-wise not actually the same thing.

    (Not that I like software patents or anything, but the "patents suck" line of comments will be covered by 500 other people.)

    --
    -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    1. Re:Might not be a totally bad patent? by jav1231 · · Score: 4, Funny

      So it looks like what its actually doing is letting the virus run in a virtual environment, watching it, then using heuristics to say "yep, thats probably a virus." I can't wait for Windows to flag about half of its services as viruses. Thus confirming what many of us have anecdotally espoused all along!

    2. Re:Might not be a totally bad patent? by dabadab · · Score: 1

      There are AV engines that do this emulation stuff for heuristic virus detection (and also as a general way to handle exe packers and various anti-debug techniques).

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    3. Re:Might not be a totally bad patent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, antivirus software already uses a sandbox technique exactly as described. That's one reason software takes longer to load with A/V software; first, it runs the executable in the "virtual machine" (sandbox). If it checks out, it runs normally. This is ancient in terms of technology, and not novel.

    4. Re:Might not be a totally bad patent? by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

      Sounds like it's going to take really long to load a program.

    5. Re:Might not be a totally bad patent? by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      This sounds a lot like using OS/2 to check out suspected viruses/trojans. Run the suspect program in a DOS box, which used Virtual 8086 mode on the 386 to provide a virtualized environment. Watch for suspicious behavior, like modifying the interrupt vector table (V86 mode didn't use the VM's IVT, the INT instruction caused a trap back into protected mode and the supervisor checked what interrupt was being generated and either handled the call in protected mode or dispatched it back into the VM, so it was impossible for malware to hijack system calls and easy for the supervisor to reliably see if the IVT had been modified and where it was pointing to now). My understanding is that this was a fairly popular way of analyzing viruses and trojans back in the day, it was easy to see what the code was doing and (as long as you avoided running programs in OS/2's native format) all but impossible for the code to escape the VM and infect the actual system.

      NB: it was moderately amusing watching stealth viruses try to burrow into the DOS system code (to try and hide themselves without the tell-tale modification of the IVT) and cause all sorts of nasty traps and faults because the memory they were trying to modify just didn't exist in the VM's address space.

  12. Conflict of Interest. by Hankapobe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually I think that Microsoft SHOULD be banned from the Virus/Malware protection market. It is their DUTY to release that kind of thing FREE as they all deal with fixing their own products flaws.

    Duty aside, it will also eliminate any conflicts of interest. If they're selling anit-virus software, what's to prevent them from making security a very low priority. No, I honestly do not think they would write viruses or purposely cripple their OS: just make security a low priority.

    1. Re:Conflict of Interest. by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      . No, I honestly do not think they would write viruses or purposely cripple their OS: just make security a low priority. So, in other words, they've spent the last 15 years preparing the market for the imminent release and subsequent windfall of MS UberDefender 2009?
    2. Re:Conflict of Interest. by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Well, you'd think so. "Zomg Microsoft is creating security vulnerabilities and THEN selling security software conspiracy?!!" makes sense.

      But, perfect (and secure) code is impossible in any codebase of a non-trivial size. (Windows' bloat qualifies as non-trivial.)

      They've been giving out free security products, and have been slowly working their way up to better solutions. First came the free Malicious Software Removal Tool updates from windowsupdate, then came the also-free Windows Defender. Then they included Windows Defender as a part of Vista. Besides all the breakage they did in the name of security, they seem pretty hard set on fighting their "Windows is insecure" image.

      As of yet, their only for-pay security product is Windows Live! One Care (tm). But, it is/was cheaper than other AV solutions; some threatened to sue because Microsoft was cheaper than something.

      Now, Microsoft has always been kinda pokey at patching things. But, making security a "low priority" means they lose their business customers. The ones that spend $bucks for support contracts and a first crack at those security patches. They also have been doing everything indicative of making security a high priority.

      I wouldn't worry about it.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    3. Re:Conflict of Interest. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      IE was cheaper than Netscape for a time, too. That's how they get in... they leverage one monopoly to take over another market. You act like that's something new that Microsoft is doing.

      Microsoft moves into new markets, and as soon as competitors are gone, they let it rot. Just look at IE.

    4. Re:Conflict of Interest. by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      No competitors? Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc? I can see that they not only have a monopoly in the browser market, but that they have also raked in oodles of cash from IE sales.~

      Besides... Only in Microsoft's case would offering something cheaper and better in the otherwise oligopolistic AV market be "anticompetitive."

      Considering the only market they've managed to "take over" is desktop and office software, I still wouldn't worry about it. Even then, the free alternatives are being increasingly used.

      More competition is good. Period. Let's see another AV vendor, even if it's Microsoft.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    5. Re:Conflict of Interest. by textureglitch · · Score: 1

      I don't think MS ever needs to write viruses or purposefully cripple their OS. The crippling is already happening all by itself, and there's plenty of people writing viruses for them.
      All they have to do is do nothing.

      --
      Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity. -Isaac Asimov
    6. Re:Conflict of Interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On top of which, it's like an open invitation for:

      1) fraud / false advertising lawsuits. Why are they claiming their new OS is soooo safe, but then selling antivirus software for it which they're pitching as soooo neccessary?

      2) antitrust lawsuits yet again. A) leveraging one monopoly position to wedge into and dominate another market B) possibly gaining unfair advantage by some combination of direct lockout of their competitors / leveraging secret internal knowledge denied to their competitors.

    7. Re:Conflict of Interest. by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      No, they completely suck when it comes to security.

      So they've decided to try and make money off it instead.

    8. Re:Conflict of Interest. by Malevolyn · · Score: 1

      Firefox, Opera, and Safari weren't competitors in the Netscape days when IE took over, and Opera was the only one of those three even around.

      --
      Your ad here.
    9. Re:Conflict of Interest. by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      That is a really good point. MS is selling software to protect you from there own failures. If they know what is breaking into their products then they should really know how to prevent that at the product (OS) level.

      Charging for additional software rather than fixing the broken product seems something that only a monopolist could do.

  13. Not necessarily any prior art by mollymoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Jesus, does nobody on this fucking planet understand patents? Microsoft have not and can not patent "proactive virus protection". They have patented a particular method of performing it. If it is novel (ie. not the same method as that used by the AV vendors) it won't impact the AV vendors, they can just carry on using whatever they use now. If the AV vendors do use the same method but chose to keep their methods a trade secret then, well, I guess they should have patented it when they had the chance.

    --
    Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    1. Re:Not necessarily any prior art by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And nobody on this planet, apart from the us, gives a fuck about software patents. AFAIK, they arnt worth the paper they're written on in Europe.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    2. Re:Not necessarily any prior art by simong_oz · · Score: 1

      I share your pain, and to answer your question - not anyone on slashdot anyway.

      --
      "Because it's there." - George Mallory, when asked why he wanted to climb Mt Everest, March 18, 1923 (New York Times)
    3. Re:Not necessarily any prior art by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

      Hell no, either nobody can fucking understand these things, or we're all too fucking stupid and hopeless to even try. Thank fucking christ that you exist. Honestly I don't know what the fuck we'd do without you, or what we're going to do when you ditch this place after getting sick of dealing with such stupid, ungrateful, fucking morons. Jesus Christ. Well thanks a fucking lot for stopping by and explaining this crazy hard shit to all of us numbskulls. Holy fuck I don't know what we'd do without you pal. At least now the shit is set straight. Alright everyone, crisis over, go back to your fucking corners. Jesus!

    4. Re:Not necessarily any prior art by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      I'm fucking glad you appreciate the effort. Jesus H. Christ it's a fucking nightmare sometimes, but someone has to do this shit. You tragic fuckers really would be lost without me. Who the fuck else is going to leap in and correct people on the internet, eh? Nobody, that's who. You know, I'm a god-damn motherfucking hero. I deserve a fucking medal or something. No, fuck that medal shit, I deserve knighthood, a billion quid and a bevy of supermodels to just, you know, hang around looking good. Naked, obviously. Hold your fucking horses! That's not all! I'd need some merely very hot chicks to fetch me beer - can't waste the supermodels on that trivial shit. A few nice pads around the world, supercars, yachts - you know the drill. I want some armour and a horse too, like a proper knight, none of this "I only use my title to get good tables in restaurants" crap. Any fucking commoner who doesn't call me "Sir Mollymoo" gets my fucking sword up their arse. You plebs can clean up the horse shit, but I imagine you'll be happy to as even the shit from my horse will contain more awesomeness than most continents can aspire to. Jesus, I probably have more awesomeness in my little finger than the rest of humanity has combined. It's glad at least one of you shitheads can see that.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
  14. I'm in violation! by AntEater · · Score: 1

    I proactively protected my system from virus and malware threats by installing Slackware over the OS that came with this computer.

    --
    Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
  15. All these companies have "fundamental" patents. by JoJoTheDFB · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Microsoft tries to sue McAfee, Symantec, etc. for violating this patent, they will countersue Microsoft for all the patents they got on fundamental stuff years ago. It just won't happen. What we have is a sort of "old boys network" where they all agree to not sue each other.

    The real point of getting patents on these kind of fundamental technologies is to prevent new players (that don't have huge patent portfolios) from entering the market.

  16. Claim 1 by Cassini2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Looking at Claim 1 in the patent, Microsoft has patented profiling by running a target application in a virtual machine at run-time. They then use the profiling data to determine if the program is malware. The patent includes many different ways of saving the profiling output too.

    I'm pretty sure the technology being patented is already in widespread use. Many virus companies create mini-virtual environments to find out what blocks of self-modifying code really do. Otherwise, a sufficiently well disguised virus can "hide" by encrypting the payload with random blocks of keys, and then only keeping the malicious code in memory as long as it is executing. In effect, the virus code is generating itself from a randomly encrypted block of memory at run-time. The virus scanner then has only a limited window of time to spot the dangerous code. To solve this problem, virus scanners allow blocks of self-modifying code to execute (in a safe manner), to see what they will actually do.

    It could be that Microsoft's anti-virus technology is obsolete, and they are actually a long distance behind the competition. ;-)

  17. Flushot+ did the same thing many years ago by Antiocheian · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Quote from the patent ``The method as recited in claim 3, wherein identifying calls that are potentially indicative of malware includes: comparing calls made in the executable with calls that exist in known malware; and if a call matches one that exists in known malware, determining that the call is potentially indicative of malware,,

    There was a TSR program for the IBM compatibles called FLU_SHOT which would do the same. It would remain in memory and warn the user whenever a program tried to change a file on the hard disk or diskette, or whenever a program tried to reside in memory.

    I wonder if this is sufficient "prior art" to invalidate the Microsoft patent.

    By the way, an interesting part in the FLU_SHOT manual which I just downloaded... definition of a virus author by the creator of FLU_SHOT (written in 1988)

    ``
    As for the designer of the virus program: most
    likely an impotent adolescent, incapable of
    normal social relationships, and attempting to
    prove their own worth to themselves through
    these type of terrorist attacks.

    Never succeeding in that task (or in any
    other), since they have no worth, they will one
    day take a look at themselves and what they've
    done in their past, and kill themselves in
    disgust. This is a Good Thing, since it saves
    the taxpayers' money which normally would be
    wasted on therapy and treatment of this
    miscreant.

    If they *really* want a challenge, they'll try
    to destroy *my* hard disk on my BBS, instead of
    the disk of some innocent person. I challenge
    them to upload a virus or other Trojan horse to

    1. Re:Flushot+ did the same thing many years ago by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Quote from the patent ``The method as recited in claim 3, wherein identifying calls that are potentially indicative of malware includes: comparing calls made in the executable with calls that exist in known malware; and if a call matches one that exists in known malware, determining that the call is potentially indicative of malware,,
      There was a TSR program for the IBM compatibles called FLU_SHOT which would do the same. It would remain in memory and warn the user whenever a program tried to change a file on the hard disk or diskette, or whenever a program tried to reside in memory.

      Uh, those two things aren't even conceptually the same, let alone similar enough to invalidate a patent. One is using heuristics to assess whether a program's actions "look like" malware based on known "malicious behaviour" and the other is prompting the user for permission to do something.

  18. IBM, some years ago by StCredZero · · Score: 2, Informative

    I remember seeing something from IBM research some years ago on this. But a Google Search on "proactive virus protection" turns up a reference from 2001 and another from 2004 soon after.

  19. Presumption of validity in question by davidwr · · Score: 1

    With goofups like this, sooner or later a court is going to rule that "any patent granted in this field by this examiner no longer enjoys the presumption of validity" if that particular examiner has more than a small percentage of erroneously-issued patents.

    Worse, he may rule "any patent granted in this field between START_DATE and END_DATE no longer enjoys the presumption of validity" if the problem is endemic for that field during that time period.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  20. I seem to recall by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative

    that the old IBM anti-virus from over a decade ago used an adaptive pre-emptive algorithm.

  21. Bloodhound Heuristics by sleekware · · Score: 1

    I remember seeing a setting for something called "Bloodhound Heuristics" when fiddling with the settings in Norton AntiVirus, and this was over five years ago. It certainly looked proactive to me.

  22. Wrong question by booch · · Score: 3, Informative

    The question being asked in the article/summary is "are the competitors using proactive computer virus protection?" But the question should be "are the competitors using this method of proactive computer virus protection?"

    People seem to get really worked up about patents, while seemingly not understanding how the system works. The patent does not cover all methods of proactive computer virus protection -- it covers one method.

    --
    Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
  23. What could go wrong? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 5, Funny

    Proactive Virus Protection Software: Being MS I'm sure all future efforts will be bulletproof and bug free.

    [Starts Windows]
    Windows: Windows has detected a virus named Norton Antivirus. Would you like to replace it with Windows Live OneCare? [Replace] or [Keep] [Keep]

    Windows: Windows has detected a virus named ZoneAlarm. Would you like to replace it with Windows Defender? [Replace] or [Keep] [Keep]

    [Launches Firefox]
    Windows: Windows has detected a virus named Firefox. Would you like to replace it with Internet Explorer? [Replace] or [Keep] [Keep]

    [Goes to gmail]
    Windows: Windows has detected that you are surfing an unsafe website named google.com. Would you like to navigate to hotmail.com instead? [Navigate] or [Stay] [Stay]

    [Goes to CNN]
    Windows: Windows has detected that you are surfing an unsafe website named cnn.com. Would you like to navigate to msnbc.com instead? [Navigate] or [Stay] [Stay]

    [Goes to Apple Webstore]
    Windows: Windows has detected that you are surfing an unsafe website named apple.com. Would you like to navigate to microsoft.com instead? [Navigate] or [Stay] [Stay]

    [Customizes Mac purchase]
    Windows: Windows has detected that you are planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen. All transactions will be canceled.

    [Loads shotgun]
    Windows: Windows has detected that you mean to do me harm. Look, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over. I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    1. Re:What could go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Highly entertaining, but there's so much reality to this scenario that I'm sure the poster of this comment has Clairvoyance-FU skills :)

  24. Before the big brains at MS figure it out... by bill_kress · · Score: 2, Insightful

    how about someone patents "Detecting changed files" as an indication of a virus. Too obvious? I guess there is prior art (tripwire), but why the HELL can't they implement such a no-brainer?

    If they wanted to, they could even put a hardware-locked little USB drive to store the checksums. If you update an executable, you press a button on your little drive to allow a single write (or maybe a limited number of writes over the next 2 seconds.)

    Code either on the add-on drive or in ROM checks the checksum of every executable loaded before it's started--even during bootup (guess that means it's in rom). Hell as long as I'm designing their app for them, Only this unchangeable rom routine can write to the USB drive. (Routine should be so simple as to never require updates, and should be stored in ROM, flash ram)

    Oh, I see, they don't want to solve the problem... I see, they want to sell "antivirus updates" for the rest of eternity.

    There, somebody go off and make that for me please. Or if you have the ability to do the hardware part, contact me and I'll do the software. We'll make millions (but not as much as people who can trick you into actually "Subscribing" to software, that's genius. no wonder their brain blocks out any more permanent solution)

    1. Re:Before the big brains at MS figure it out... by PrescriptionWarning · · Score: 1

      "how about someone patents "Detecting changed files" as an indication of a virus. Too obvious? I guess there is prior art (tripwire), but why the HELL can't they implement such a no-brainer?"

      there's already an app that does this. I can't remember the name of it, but every time I patch or update any program it asks me essentially "cancel or allow" the running of the program the next time i try to run it. Of course yet again this just trains the user to always hit "allow" until we simply turn it off.

      "The only winning move is not to play." In other words, only use programs you can be sure of the source and only go to websites which are well known and with a browser besides IE. "Winning is only half the battle!"

    2. Re:Before the big brains at MS figure it out... by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      Tripwire does that as well. What you want to look out for is a program in your system that is updated when you are not loading an application (when you don't expect one to be updated)

      Currently we have no way of knowing this has happened (which is why products like NAV seem to be useful)

      If you were on a website and something said "Someone is trying to update some_program.exe, do you approve?", then it would get your attention.

    3. Re:Before the big brains at MS figure it out... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      You will be surprised how many files get updated, when you run even simple programs. You should run filemon for a minute or so, check what sort of output you get. You might as well put up a flag whenever a program requests some memory to run, that is just as maleveolent behaviour.

    4. Re:Before the big brains at MS figure it out... by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      I said (Or meant to say) executable files. None should be modified typically.

      Dealing with scripts can be tricky though. I guess that developers might need a flag that says "Ignore this ruby script, I change it all the time".

      Also, identifying to the system that scripts are executable and not text files might be interesting, but not overly difficult.

      It might be reasonable to confine a program to data in its own directory and a specific subdirectory of your home directory in 90% of the cases... Any changes outside those two would be of interest, but even that is beyond the case I'm talking about...

      All I'm talking about is identifying changed executables. Why does that take "Scanning for signatures"?

  25. Loader... by DrYak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Usually, brand-sparking-new polymorphic and encrypted virus which use some trick or other to hide themselves are catched by antivirus which detect *their decryption* routines.

    Yes, if code has undergone some complex processing before being injected into host, and if it has to do some weird assembly before being runnable, it will be very hard for signature based viruses to detect.

    *...BUT...* no normal program has any valid reason to run some complex unpack/decrypt/re-order process on code before running it.
    The virus' loader it-self, even if doesn't contain the slightest sign of malign activity, is a dead give-away that something shoddy is going to happen soon once the chimera has been assembled.

    Heuristic antivirus which detect weird behaviour and rise alerts on "behaviours-that-aren't-inherently-dangerous-but-no-program-should-to-it-usually" are nothing new. It was pioneered by antiviruses as old as Thunderbyte.

    In fact, there have been some incidents of false-positive triggering alerts, such as executable compressed with UPX packer. (Which *is* a piece of software which does processing on code before running it. Isn't very popular in branded software. And is sometime used in viruses - Which is why some antivirus vendors did not tune their heuristics finely enough to avoid trigger the false alert) ...on the other hand, with weird content protections systems such as StarForce, maybe code unpacking/decrypting is becoming popular in mainstream software and heuristics may risk to rise false alarms on most games, leading to antivirus vendors to lower their heuristics and encryption/obfuscation becoming a valid virus hiding technique.

    But until then, hypervisor root-kits are the new holy grail of virus writers.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Loader... by Ambiguous+Puzuma · · Score: 1

      *...BUT...* no normal program has any valid reason to run some complex unpack/decrypt/re-order process on code before running it.

      How is this different from what compilers and linkers need to do?
    2. Re:Loader... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      *...BUT...* no normal program has any valid reason to run some complex unpack/decrypt/re-order process on code before running it.

      Actually, self encryption is a fairly common practice among apps that use draconian copy protection systems.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:Loader... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *...BUT...* no normal program has any valid reason to run some complex unpack/decrypt/re-order process on code before running it. I thought that was how SafeDisc, SecuROM, etc all worked? They encrypt the real exe then decrypt it at run time using a key from a part of the cd that normal burners cant write to?

      But i agress those programs have no reason to run on my pc...
    4. Re:Loader... by Auckerman · · Score: 1

      BUT...* no normal program has any valid reason to run some complex unpack/decrypt/re-order process on code before running it.

      Mask the virus as being a DRM process. In the near future, proper corporate anti-virus software will make an attempt to ignore "valid" DRM encryption/decryption for files and software.

      Skimming this board I was thinking to myself, what will Windows have in the future? More DRM so companies can control distribution of their files. Not only that, talk about the perfect way to control who can run a binary. I can see people doing this kind of thing on purpose for "valid" code. What's to stop malware from hiding itself as a valid DRM system?

      --

      Burn Hollywood Burn
  26. I'm violating the patent by ShannaraFan · · Score: 1

    "Proactive virus protection". Does this mean that by being proactive and not clicking on attachments, keeping my machines patched up, and not running Internet Explorer, I'm violating their patent?

    (I kid, I kid)...

  27. For some historically REALY old Prior Art by DrYak · · Score: 5, Informative

    There a nice page about the history of ThunderByte AntiVirus (TBAV), which pioneered heuristic detection of polymorphic viruses, at a time when most of the other Antivirus were purely signature based (well. mostly. there also have been antivirus using regular expressions as signature, in order to handle some degree of polymorphism).

    This specific antivirus was started in 1988, more than 15 years before Microsoft submited its patent (2004).
    I think here microsoft broke a new world record.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:For some historically REALY old Prior Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is also this - Disk Firewall. The approach is different though - only trusted programs are allowed to access the data, all I/O requests coming from other processes are rejected. It seems better since there is no heuristics involved.

  28. proactive virus detection .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    In other words they've patented running predictive virus detection in a simulated environment. What happens if the 'invention' fails to detect the malware.

    Why don't MS use this patented proactive virus detection technology in Windows, that way they wouldn't need anti virus software.

    "the parsed API calls are "executed" in the virtual operating environment of the present invention using stub Dynamically Linked Libraries (hereinafter "stub DLLs")"

    "The stub DLLs have the same interface as the fully implemented DLLs that they mirror. However, the stub DLLs "execute" API calls only using components of a virtual operating environment"

    Does anyone else here think this sounds like a total hack, as in fixing plugging a leak with ducttape sealing wax and string.

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  29. Given patents nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's probably a patent on protecting a computer system by proactive defense.

    with a lot more words, I'm sure it would get past a patent attorney.

  30. In other words .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    In other words, please pay us royaltys to fix our own leaky Operating System .. :)

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  31. Heuristics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics

    Idiot PTO personnel never hear of the word?

    Of course I'm sure MS never included the word in any of the patent application verbage.

  32. (engine paper) by DrYak · · Score: 2, Informative

    Paper about TBAV's engine linked on the page I mentioned above.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  33. Three letters to consider by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few days ago Steve Ballmer was attacked by an egg-throwing young guy when he lectured somewhere in Hungary. He had to hide under the table for much laugh, it's on Youtube. I think this attack was well-justified in restrospective.

    Otherwise I particuarly cannot recommend that M$ go after Kaspersky Lab. Try to guess where its founder Eugene Kaspersky used to work before getting into the antivirus business... Imagine one morning Bill Gates wakes up to find a bit of polonium-210 under his blanket ... maximizing profits will be the least of his worries after that.

  34. So, MS patented by noewun · · Score: 3, Funny

    Using another OS? That's far out, man.

    --
    I am a believer of momentum and curves.
    1. Re:So, MS patented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who has ever said that there are not innovative?

  35. Read the claims first... by PatentMagus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you want to know what is being patented, read the claims first. The claims tell you exactly what is patented. Pick apart the abstract or detailed description is mere wankery without first dissecting the claims. For example: Claim 1: A computer-implementable method for determining the behavior of an executable comprising: selecting evaluation calls made by the executable to the interface of an operating system; loading stubs into a virtual address space, the stubs: mirroring the calls made to the interface of an operating system wherein mirroring the calls made to the interface of the operating system includes mirroring a set of full implemented DLLs; and determining a behavior signature for the selected calls; wherein the calls are included in dynamic link libraries (DLLs) and wherein loading stubs include loading stub DLLs into said virtual address space; executing the selected calls inside of a virtual operating environment using the loaded stubs dynamically linked libraries; and determining the behavior signatures resulting from said execution of the selected calls inside of a virtual operating environment. So, this is basically running some code inside a stubby VM. That is the prior art to look for. All the stuff about looking for code similar to already known malware is BS. It doesn't matter how long that has been done - it isn't prior art with regard to the claims.

    --
    I am a lawyer, but not yours. Anything I tell you might be a total lie intended to benefit my clients at your expense.
  36. Patent Lawyer Job Security Programme by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Informative

    The current patent system works like this: most claims are granted. Any initial challenge in court merely establishes the evidence, and is tried by judges without any expertise in either patents or the technology being patented. Only in the appeals court is any real judgement exercised. By which time the process has cost big money, usually millions of dollars, and years of uncertainty in collecting revenue from sales of the invention.

    So only the rich, who can afford to pay their way through those risky years, get anything like their due process.

    Patents are a monopoly. Obtaining one from the government should require the applicant to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their patent is necessary "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts", the only Constitutional basis for these monopolies. That argument should require the applicant to produce evidence of an exhaustive search of prior art, not just launch a "submarine" claim and wait for it to torpedo some prior artist who then must go through the process at their expense. They should also produce similarly supported evidence of the other requirements, such as novelty and utility. If thatevidence is shown to be incomplete, the Patent Office should reject the application, with a fee that actually covers processing it, plus probably a fine for wasting the public's time and clogging its offices. If that evidence is shown to be fraudulent, like when the applicant is proven to have hidden ignored evidence of disqualifying facts, the applicant should be charged with attempting to create an illegitimate monopoly, as well as with practicing the fraud. The applicant should even have to prove the case that their specific invention promotes science or useful arts only with patent protection, and disprove the progress in science or the useful arts possible without the patent.

    Getting a patent should be hard. It should be a cost of doing business. The upfront process should put the burden on the applicant. The patent should not be the asset, but should be only that occasional compromise with both free expression and modern economics that requires a temporary monopoly to protect progress (not necessarily the inventor) from predatory competition which doesn't invent, but simply outspends inventors to exploit a known invention. When that gotcha doesn't actually impede progress, the patent isn't necessary, and should never be granted.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  37. Reading Between the Lines by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

    It occurs to me that Microsoft is either patenting this stuff to just add to its patent portfolio, or it means that they're getting serious about security.

    The biggest flaw I see with Microsoft being an antivirus vendor is that it's like trying to proof read your own writing.. sometimes you see what you MEANT to say, not what you actually said. If they were that good with security, why didn't they just build that crap right into the OS in the first place.

    Oh wait, their most recent security approach resulted in Vista. Well, I suppose a computer that won't even talk to its own webcam or video card, or other hardware is pretty secure... from YOU (the user).

    --

    The Digital Sorceress
  38. 3 soldiers arguing... by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 1

    Soldier 1 : Haha, I get to protect the president.
    Soldier 2 : No _I_ get to protect the president.
    Soldier 3 : Fuck off, I am getting to protect the president.
    The president : FFS shut up and protect me all of you!

    --
    If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
  39. Patent be Damned by catdevnull · · Score: 1

    I'll display my "impressed face" when they actually show that it works. So far, the score board says:

    Viruses: 1 zillion
    MSFT: 0

    The patent doesn't mean anything unless its useful.

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  40. Positively brilliant, MS by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    These people are helping make your POS operating system usable. Why not patent how they are doing it and see if you can make a buck off of them with some patent trolling? It'd serve you right if they all just thumbed their noses at you and quit making AV software right then and there.

    Forget the seven wonders of the ancient world, I'm interested in a bigger mystery - how in the hell do you people stay in business?

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  41. With friends like that... by Genda · · Score: 1

    Writes Wolfe: "One often wonders about software patents. I sure wonder about this one. I also wonder whether McAfee, Symantec, Trend Micro, and Kaspersky are also going to be hearing from their friends in Redmond real soon".

    Why yes, in much the same way that General Custer's brigade heard from their good friends the Native Americans, at Little Big Horn.

  42. Norton is safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, this is an obvious case of get it before someone else does at goes after you .... not going to happen. If you are going to live in a world of patents thn you gotta play.

  43. All that effort to avoid fixing the core problem . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .. that Windows sucks 7 ways to Sunday when it comes to security.

    I have by now heard almost 10 years worth of promises, with the last 5 years or so a more pronounced focus on security because that's what end users are asking. But they have IMHO yet to deliver anything that is simple and works, like a secure basis to start from.

    Like your average Big Name consultancy, they will NEVER sell you a finished product, because you wouldn't need them any more.

    They don't sell solutions. They sell hope. Hope that the next version MAYBE will address the problem you have today. If you talk about green computing, well you just found where waste occurs.

  44. Re:what do you call that? by v1 · · Score: 1

    lets call this new invention "secure design".

    What a novel idea, we should patent that!

    (and why didn't anyone suggest this sooner?)

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  45. Re:what do you call that? by theun4gven · · Score: 1

    lets call this new invention "secure design". What a novel idea, we should patent that! It wouldn't do you any good since someone would have to actually infringe upon this first for you to get any money out of it.
  46. different way? by the_one(2) · · Score: 1

    don't know if this is a stupid idea or not but how hard would be it be to set how trusted a particular application is? Like if you for example have installed a new game you could right click and select "trusted". And maybe if you downloaded a cd-key generator you could set it to "utrusted" and let the antivirusprogram have a closer look at it and maybe run it in a virtual machine.
    Doing this might lighten the antivirus programs load a bit
    just a thought

  47. John Hardin's Sanitizer by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Informative

    The procmail based email sanitizer has been around since some time before the dinosaurs: http://www.impsec.org/email-tools/procmail-security.html It detects known and unknown viruses.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  48. Do they mean by fuliginous · · Score: 1

    Proactive protection, does that mean don't buy windows. Which if they have that business method patented means anyone who doesn't buy windows is of course infringing their proactive virus protection patent?

  49. VM detection by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · · Score: 1
    Now, that just has to work as it has been shown numerous times that the presence of a VM can under no circumstances be detected, right?

    And then they took the red pill and saw the truth...

  50. Great... by cjb658 · · Score: 1

    Now nobody can switch to Mac or Linux without licensing a patent from Microsoft.

  51. Either Yahoo! Surrenders or... by KwKSilver · · Score: 1

    MacAfee, Symantec, TrendMicro, and Kaspersky get sued!

    --
    If you want your life to be different, live it differently.
  52. How Patent Claims Work by billstewart · · Score: 1
    A typical patent has a bunch of claims, usually starting with very general and progressing to some very detailed claims which are the core of the new idea in the patent, and then some more claims that are variations on the earlier ones. They're not written in English, but in Patentese, which is a dialect that has a subset of English grammar chosen to avoid conveying actual new information to the reader while still allowing the reader to confirm that information already known is covered.


    So they'll start out with claims about a "round transportation device" and move on to claims about a "left-hand-threaded chrome-nickel-molybdenum wingnut", and some of the later claims may involve "titanium-oxide-pigmented circular signifiers". The patent examiner will grant the patent because the wingnut did something new and useful, even though there was some prior art concerning the "wheel". This does not mean that the patent owners aren't going to then go try to extort money from people for their use of the wheel, or for business models that charge more for whitewall tires, or that columnists or Slashdot submitters won't misconstrue what the patent's about. But the patent itself may still be legitimate.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:How Patent Claims Work by simong_oz · · Score: 1

      With respect, you are completely wrong. In your example, the granted patent is for a round transportation device (since this is claim 1). The sub-claims are irrelevant (although it holds different weight in litigation). Patents are written the way they are for a very good reason - if you are not allowed the broadest claim (usually claim 1), then you drop that and move down to the next broadest etc etc. The claims that are actually granted can be very different from those in the PCT publication.

      I really wish people on slashdot would learn how patents actually work - the amount of plain wrong information is unbelievable.

      --
      "Because it's there." - George Mallory, when asked why he wanted to climb Mt Everest, March 18, 1923 (New York Times)
  53. Not a bad Idea, after all by DrYak · · Score: 1

    I was say in my original post that hypervisor root kits are the future (Until antivirus makers give up with the "loader" detection, because too much DRM are using them, as you mention too).

    Well, maybe.

    Another solution for virus writers would be to find a way to piggy-back on StarForce-encrypted executables and similar.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  54. Completely different by DrYak · · Score: 1

    How is this different from what compilers and linkers need to do? It is as much different as two things that have nothing in common.

    From an antivirus' point of view, compilers and linkers are plain normal software, that read some input file, do some processing on them and write the results inside an output file. Not much different than, say, a filter which converts a PNG into a JPEG file :
    From the time it starts executing up until the end of execution, the code in memory of those softwares is exactly the same, and is exactly the same as contained into the executable image on the disk (beside a couple of jump points into shared libraries, but that is setup by the OS' load). At no time do these software rewrite themselves.

    Whereas a loader, when started, shuffle lots of memory arround and then jump _into_ that code. What ends up being executed has nothing to do with what was on the disc. Regular software seldom to this kind of trick, there are only a couple of exceptions :
    - Executable decompressors (although they now start to seem a little bit out of fashion, now that the price of storage has fallen and that compression is provided in the filesystem at the OS level anyway). There are few different example of it, so an antivirus can be made to recognize them. In fact, decompressors don't make special effort to obfuscate code, so most modern antivirus are able to decompress and analyse the payload to check if that is legitimate.
    - VMs and emulators using JIT and DynaRec, they build native code by assembling small bits and then jump to that memory location, instead of interpreting bytecode (or using an offline compiler to build a native executable into a cache and then run the produced executable). Again, there aren't that many different (compared to virus, I mean), and the antivirus will need not only to recognize them, but to react to their presence and also start analysing their input to check if the executed code isn't trying to do dangerous actions and/or use exploits to break out of the VM's sandbox.
    - Very old implementation loader of dynamically loaded libraries. Once upon a time there were OS like MS-DOS that did not provide enough facility for shared libraries (beside a few functionality for overlays) and back then the software went through creative implementation to have shared libraries, load user-selected drivers, or even overwrite parts of themselves with fast blitter code pulled out of the BIOS. These don't exist anymore, so they won't pose problems.

    - Content protection systems. This is the only problematic case, because such shit as StarForce are made on purpose to be hard to detect and to obfuscate their payload and thus could easily confuse the antivirus and get mis-recognized as virus loaders, on the grounds that they are designed to do exactly the same thing.

    This is the only situation which will get problematic, specially given the fact that some legislation (like USA's DMCA) forbid to try to break and decrypt the content of such protection loaders. Even if antivirus creators found ways to break the StarForce loader/decrypter, that would be considered illegal in USA because that would be circumventing a system designed to protect copyrighted material).

    Which could leave to an interesting situation were viruses could try to piggy back inside executables encrypted using such protection systems.
    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  55. Heh, but seriously by OMNIpotusCOM · · Score: 1

    My first skim over the title said "provocative" virus protection. I don't want to give McAfee any ideas, but I, for one, would welcome that kind of subscription-based virus-stomping scantily-dressed overlord... virus protection.

  56. Proactive Virus Protection? by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    You mean not installing Microsoft products? I hate to tell Microsoft, but a lot of us have prior art on THAT one...

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  57. Yet another reason... by RexDevious · · Score: 1

    that patents shouldn't be awarded to people who haven't actually, successfully *executed* the concept in the patent at least once.

    Giving Microsoft a patent on a form of computer virus protection is like giving Paris Hilton a patent on a form of STD protection.

    And no, "Stay Far, Far Away From Me" is not a patentable business process in either case, effective though it may be.

  58. ...without connecting to an NTP server? by tepples · · Score: 1

    it has been shown numerous times that the presence of a VM can under no circumstances be detected, right? One can make a simulation of an isolated computer that is so accurate that software running on the computer cannot detect it. Try making an NES program that can tell whether it is running on a Nintendo Entertainment System or on one of the more recent emulators, such as Nintendulator or Nestopia. You're probably thinking of discrepancies between the execution time of "easy" instructions vs. "hard" instructions, detected by comparing the CPU clock, the RTC, and NTP clock servers on the other side of a network cable. But if a program cannot connect to NTP servers, how can it detect that it is being emulated?
    1. Re:...without connecting to an NTP server? by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · · Score: 1
      Ways to detecte the presence of a VM are not limited to the methods you mentioned.

      E.g., you could check for certain characteristics of the VM, like with VMware, the presence of the "VMware" string in memory or the presence of a communication channel between the VM and the host.

      Then you can detect VMs by some special instructions that the native CPU would not understand.

      And probably most difficult to prevent, you can detect the presence of VM by looking at the memory addresses of certain OS tables.

      Take a look at On the Cutting Edge: Thwarting Virtual Machine Detection or just google a bit

  59. Tradeoff between convenience and security by tepples · · Score: 1

    Ways to detecte the presence of a VM are not limited to the methods you mentioned. As of today. Several characteristics of the VM are there for convenience, and if security becomes important, those characteristics might get turned off at a performance cost. Case in point: An NES program can detect that it's running on Nesticle in four lines of code, but Nintendulator is one hell of a lot more accurate (and thus harder to detect).