Slashdot Mirror


The Case for Lunar Property Rights

longacre writes "Who owns the moon? In a thought provoking piece, Instapundit blogger/law professor Glenn Reynolds gives us a brief history of earthlings' discourse on lunar property rights, a topic which has stagnated since the 1979 Moon Treaty. Is it possible to claim good title on land that is not under the dominion of a nation? He goes on to plead his case for the creation of lunar real estate legislation. From the article: 'Property rights attract private capital and, with government space programs stagnating, a lunar land rush may be just what we need to get things going again.'"

25 of 387 comments (clear)

  1. Possession is nine tenths of the law. by mu11ing1t0ver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think if anyone can actually get to the moon, they'll have a valid claim on it.

    1. Re:Possession is nine tenths of the law. by legallyillegal · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Replace "Mars" with "Moon

      The investors laugh. This planet we will own, they ask, is it Earth? No? Well, then, how much is it worth? The investors explain to the Mars expert: Owning Mars-getting all the way to Mars and back-is getting to first base. In order to have a successful venture, a venture to invest in, the property must be valuable.

      How valuable? $10 billion? Hardly. A successful, manned Mars mission, according to the most optimistic estimates, would take a minimum of 10 years from planning to completion. Venture capital firms, in order to justify their high-risk investments, seek a minimum of 10 times growth in their investment over five years. And they want to be able to "cash out"-to sell their initial investment if they want to. Assuming that the $10 billion would be spent smoothly over the 10 years (i.e., tying up the capital an average of five years), means that after the successful mission, Mars would have to be worth at least $100 billion in order to justify the investment of $10 billion. A hundred billion is almost $3 an acre.

      Now, even after a successful, manned Mars mission, why would other investors pay the original venture capitalists $100 billion for Martian land? (Why would they even pay $100 million, or one million?) The land would be almost completely undeveloped. For anyone to invest in such a risky proposition, there would have to be a reasonable chance for the land to be worth at least 10 times as much five years later-one trillion dollars, 15 years after the beginning of the original project.

      That's almost $30 an acre. Today, you can still buy range land in New Mexico for $40 an acre. And that is with Earth's atmosphere included, and substantially lower transportation and energy costs.

      --
      ?giS
    2. Re:Possession is nine tenths of the law. by QuantumPete · · Score: 4, Funny

      But that'd mean that the US already owns the entire moon, being the only nation to ever have set foot there (and even planted a flag). They didn't say "I claim this island (trabant) in the name of blah." but with some careful editing of the historical footage, I'm sure that could be rectified ;-)

      --
      QuantumPete
    3. Re:Possession is nine tenths of the law. by servognome · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Even if opening of private property on the moon is allowed, and it creates a rush to buy property, all that would happen is that the property speculators will buy it up cheap and sit on it until it is worth something. There is no incentive for them to do anything with it after they have brought it.
      That's not how many purchases of state property works, it's not about a piece of paper, nor is it about putting up a fence. Developers place bids (cash and project proposals) to develop the property and written into the contract is the requirement to meet those proposals. That prevents people from buying land and sitting on it, and contractually binds them to meet the goals set out. So a developer will make a bid on land to place a shopping mall, another may want to build an amusement park, what the sale does is allow planning of how best to use the property.
      Government sale of property isn't so much about raising money, it's about managing a limited resource.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    4. Re:Possession is nine tenths of the law. by bloodninja · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's almost $30 an acre. Today, you can still buy range land in New Mexico for $40 an acre. And that is with Earth's atmosphere included, and substantially lower transportation and energy costs. So, Martian land is less expensive than New Mexico land? And it is located in an isolated, relatively secluded place that even the US government has difficulty getting to? The Scientologists and Davidians will be crawling all over it now that the cat is out of the bag!
      --
      Lock the wife and the dog in the boot of the car.
      Return one hour later.
      Who's happy to see you?
    5. Re:Possession is nine tenths of the law. by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 4, Funny

      You can still "discover" that your wife is cheating on you, although at least 2 others knew before you.

  2. Gravity well by OpenSourced · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let's be real, the moon is never going to be like Florida, even if it's really sunny and the reduced gravity helps even feeble elderly people play golf (those big craters come really handy there!) Even if it could be, the powers that be cannot really allow private property in the moon, or private developments in space. Just read a bit of SF. The Earth sits in the bottom of a gravity well. It cannot allow people outside (or almost outside) of that gravity well, with the possibility of throwing down big stones, and no fear of reprisals. Only big changes in technology could change that reality.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
  3. No property rights on ANY land by iamacat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a human born on planet Earth, I have a right to a plot of land for sustenance and shelter, in reasonable proximity to where I was born. This should supersede property rights of the mega-rich, even if my parents bargained away the rights. At most, the land can be loaned from humanity for an exclusive use of one person for a limited time. Lets not start the same heartless trend on Moon or even try to live there until we can behave decently on Earth.

    1. Re:No property rights on ANY land by servognome · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a human born on planet Earth, I have a right to a plot of land for sustenance and shelter, in reasonable proximity to where I was born.
      That's great if you want everybody to go back to being self sufficient farmers - unfortunately most people prefer to have a better standard of living through specialization and trade.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    2. Re:No property rights on ANY land by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a human born on planet Earth, I have a right to a plot of land for sustenance and shelter, in reasonable proximity to where I was born. Why?
  4. The year was 1970... by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Funny

    Humiliated by the Americans beating them to the moon, the Soviets developed plans to send a massive unmanned rocket to the moon, laden with red paint. On impact, the paint would cover the entire bright side of the moon. A second, manned mission would immediately follow. The cargo - white paint, to make a bright hammer and crescent symbol against the red background.

    American intelligence learned of these plans. A great opportunity arose to foil them. But instead the American President, "Tricky Dick" Nixon, demurred. "Let them go ahead and paint the moon," he said.

    "But Mr. President, surely the image of the Soviet Empire covering the moon..."

    "After they've painted it red," said Nixon, "we'll paint the logo of Coca Cola."

  5. The power to tax is the power to destroy by Rix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No entity can grant property rights they cannot enforce.

    1. Re:The power to tax is the power to destroy by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. See how the Old World split America in several parts they "owned". See what happened then.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  6. Heinlein by Etherwalk · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is a Heinlein question--read The Man Who Sold the Moon, he has a lot of fun with it.

  7. Property is liberation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You can see the outcome of this kind of "property-is-theft" attitude in china. There land in the countryside for farming is state owned and city land is privately owned. The net result is that the poor in the cities have some hope of social mobility as there is availability of collateral to raise capital, fund enterprise and create jobs. In the country, farmers have no way to raise funds to start their own businesses or improve their farms, leaving them dependent on the state to improve their lot. Somewhat predictably the state favours uncompensated land-grabs, turning the land to more profitable (for the state) uses. All courtesy of the people.

    In short, property rights are helpful for development and reducing poverty, even though it's not immediately obvious. That does depend on the value of land use being higher than the costs, something that's not true everywhere on Earth, let alone the moon.

  8. It's simple by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Funny

    Who owns anything? The person with the biggest stick.

    --
    Deleted
  9. Euoprean countries did this in North America too by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They would claim vast swaths of land after just looking at it. However, whole areas frequently drifted from one country's dominion to another. What made the final difference? Force of arms.

    If you want to claim the moon, you have to put a fort up there. Because who cares if Joe Shmoe in Pasadena California bought the Danjon Crater for $2,500, when the Chinese put a guy up there with bazooka? Bazooka wins, end of story.

    Want to claim parts of the moon? Put force of arms up there. No other way about it. Don't like this fact? Take it up with human nature and human history. This is the only way this process has ever worked

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  10. location, location, location by Quadraginta · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's a reasonable argument, but you seem to be assuming the only purpose of land is to live on. Hardly. There's a reason that range land in NM is $40 an acre and Manhattan real estate is probably roughly a million times more. It's what you can do there that matters.

    So what can you do on the Moon that would make it so fabulously valuable? Beats me. The only unique resources the Moon has (exceedingly low temperatures in the shade, unbelievably good vacuum) you can also get in orbit, where you don't have to worry about any gravity at all, and can build eight-mile wide factories out of gossamer and shoe strings, if you want.

    But it could happen. Suppose it turns out 1/6 gee allows you (don't ask me how) to grow perfect crystals of membrane-bound proteins fast and easy, something nearly impossible to do on Earth. That could lead to the possibility of rational design of fantastically valuable drugs, e.g. genuine cancer cures and the like. What would that be worth? Very likely far more than $100 billion. (The cholesterol-lowering drug Lipitor will have earned its inventors about $65 billion by the time its patent expires in 2010.)

    1. Re:location, location, location by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's a reason that range land in NM is $40 an acre and Manhattan real estate is probably roughly a million times more.
      Manhattan land is expensive because lots of people work nearby and so lots of people want to live there - simple supply and demand. With the New Mexico land you could at least raise cattle on it (they breathe air, remember).

      It's what you can do there that matters.
      Indeed, and I'm not seeing a lot that you can do on the moon. It certainly fails the comparison with Manhattan and New Mexico.
      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:location, location, location by nospam007 · · Score: 4, Funny


      So what can you do on the Moon that would make it so fabulously valuable?

      You could mine the cheese.

    3. Re:location, location, location by Notegg+Nornoggin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe the UN should allocate a bunch of land to each country with a reasonable claim (i.e. viable spam programme)
      Greetings!

      I am the son of the former Nigerian Ministry for Lunar Development and I have a large sum of money held in his locked bank account...
    4. Re:location, location, location by cronius · · Score: 4, Informative
      So what can you do on the Moon that would make it so fabulously valuable? Beats me. The only unique resources the Moon has (exceedingly low temperatures in the shade, unbelievably good vacuum) you can also get in orbit, where you don't have to worry about any gravity at all, and can build eight-mile wide factories out of gossamer and shoe strings, if you want.
      Helium-3. Lots on the moon, little on Earth. Can be used to build fusion reactors.

      http://www.spacedaily.com/2004/041126084122.6pp9f0wx.html

      "The moon contains 10 times more energy in the form of Helium 3 than all the fossil fuels on the earth," Kalam said.
      --
      Life is Reality
    5. Re:location, location, location by raddan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Basically, it boils down to: it belongs to whomever can defend it. That's the way it works on Earth-- I don't think that'll change on the Moon, or on Mars. Lobbing rocks at Earth, anyone?

      Anyone who invests in lunar real estate before any kind of lunar authority is established, backed up by force, is an idiot.

  11. 10 meters of fence and the moon is mine! by kanweg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All you need is 10 meters (yards, retards) of fence. Put it up, and create a home in what others would call "outside" the fence but you call inside the fence because that is where your home is. The tiny spot is left for others.

    Bert
    Who'd hate to see the moon mined for He3. We're already wrecking a planet, we should have learned something from that.

  12. Re:The moon is already being sold... by ejecta · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I "own" a lot of land on the moon, was given to me as a joke gift, complete with mining rights - if it turns out valid, it's one heck of a gift. If, more likely, it's just a piece of paper, it's still a really nice framed piece of paper! Complete with a map & co-ordinates of where my acre is.

    --
    Two Parts Swash, One Part Buckle