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Telecom Immunity Bill Hides Spying Provisions
Corrupt notes an Ars analysis of the FISA bill of which the telecom immunity provision has been getting all the attention. Timothy B. Lee enumerates the ways in which the bill loosens current protections on domestic wiretapping and opens up whole new areas to government eavesdropping. "The legislation eliminates meaningful judicial oversight of eavesdropping between American citizens and foreigners located overseas, and effectively legalizes dragnet surveillance of domestic-to-foreign traffic. It stretches out the judicial review process so much that the government will in many cases be able to complete its surveillance activities before the courts finish deciding on its legality."
well shit if they were trying to hide it and people find it, I say nice spy work.
We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
The legislature can try to eliminate judicial oversight, but its still up to the courts what evidence they will accept. If they decide it was obtained in an unconstitutional manner, they can throw it out.
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
Does this bill loosens the rules for US-to-Canada communications? Because, oh my god, what if the NSA did know about my next vacation to Quebec City...
More murders are committed every year on American soil than all the American terrorist deaths in the 21st century. The difference between terrorism and ordinary murder is the intended victim - politicians.
It wasn't the world trade center or even the Pentagon that created the hysteria over terrorists. It was the plane that didn't make it out of Pennsylvania, the one aimed at Congress.
My government is run by cowards.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
I pointed this out in a recent story about revolts among the BO community, and was modded troll for daring to question the integrity of his holiness.
Thanks slashdot for helping them cover it up until it was too late.
Barack is incapable of evil, so supporting this like he is must be good, right?
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
What do we have to be so darned worried about? It's not like the President would compile an "Enemies List" of people to wiretap, or something. This is America, right?
oh crap
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
or does this crap always seem to happen right before and H2K conference?
Oh well, yet another thing for Jello to rant about ^___^
Is it just me, or does anyone else remember how in the 80s we were always being told that the Russian government (oooh, these evil Ruskies!) spied on their people and that the US was above that sort of behavior? And is it any surprise that it's essentially the same people in power now who are FOR this sort of governmental behavior? I guess as long as they got a boogeyman somewhere......
I thought we had all the information we needed to stop the 9/11 attack but we just didn't connect the dots.
The government's solution?
More Dots!
What a bunch of assholes.
You think the intent is to gather evidence to take to court? For this rev of the executive branch? Seriously?
If people don't start swamping their representatives with letters, calls and e-mails telling them to strangle this evil piece of legislation in its cradle, a lot of the things that make the United States a place worth living in will start sliding away.
Bin Laden must be laughing himself sick. One terrorist act that kills fewer people than died every single day during WWII, and the US starts throwing the rights and freedoms its heroes bled and died for down the nearest toilet...with enthusiastic applause from hysterical soccer moms and authority-worshiping lackwits.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Get some deodorant.
Having also been downmodded for critizing Obama, I think it's definitely time to end the witch-hunt against detractors that has begun to permeate this community.
When I was in school I learned that our government is a system of Checks And Balances. What the article is telling me is that the Telcom bill is removing all of that as unnecessary.
We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
You're missing the point. The oversight process in this bill permits spying to take place for thirty days to four months before being forced to stop. The govt can spy for thirty days (plus the 1 week before submission of certification) even if judicial oversight rejects their case the moment it is presented.
The timeline assuming the agency's goal is maximizing the spying time:
0 day - spying begins without any preamble
1 week - Gov must submit certification for review
1-30 days + 1 week - judge must returns review
if judge objects
30 days after review- the govt must stop spying
unless they appeal to FISA
then they could have another 30 days
If the judges and courts have full queues that could push the whole thing to four months.
Assuming it gets rejected they presumably (IANAL) cannot use the evidence in court. Nonetheless they were legally empowered to look through your internet/telephone underwear drawer for over a month. How are you feeling about your 4th amendment rights now?
The article goes on to describe how the constraints make this law very easily abused to include spying upon americans for a wide variety of pretexts. That is the other half of the problem.
This is a terrible law even if you ignore autocracy being implemented by the telecom amnesty provisions.
where shock collars link when we make international phone calls!
010001100111010101100011011010110010000001000010011101010111001101101000
I've been modded troll 3 times now for pointing out that Obama is just another hyper-ambitious politician, not the fucking messiah. The tide seems to be turning since this telecom amnesty fiasco though. A lot of people here are finally seeing him for what he really is.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Im shocked I tell you, SHOCKED!
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Hmmm... let me check... I'm not a criminal... I don't make repeated calls to foreign countries discussing illegal activities... yep, looks like a good bill to me.
Without having read the article: is that really new? The current FISA provision allows agencies to start wiretapping 72 hours before filing a request.
Encrypt and use secure OSes. Yes, that will make evasdropping harder, but the bad guys already use these security technologies. This is not about catching ''terrorists'', this is specifically to evasdrop on normal citizens, for example to evaluate public opinion and identify people with unwanted views. Highly unethical (read: evil. These people can only hope that theire is no after-action evaluation after they die. They would all go to hell.), but politicians typically have no morals anyways, except for show.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Here's an interesting stat, everybody tends to like (tolerate) their Senator and Congress Critter, however Congress and Senate have about a 12% overall approval rating.
These numbers really don't make sense, not at all. Each congress critter / senator is part of the whole and thus part of the problem for everyone who isn't part of that 12%.
FISA is just a symptom of the problem of overly complex and burdensome legislation. I'm sure there is SOME part of FISA that you (everyone) would agree is okay perhaps even needed, however that is over shadowed by all the parts that you (everyone) don't like, hate, despise or whatever.
Which is why, almost overwhelmingly, we don't like FISA as a whole. The process sucks, because just enough people like each part to get it included into the whole, but the whole is untenable.
This directly mirrors our view of congress, we like the part we voted for, but no the aggregate whole.
Personally, I'd like to see a new Constitutional Ammendment that every 8 to 16 years, the nation as a whole votes on all the congress critters and senators as an aggregate group, Yes / No. And if they get a "NO" then they (the aggregate whole lot) can never run for any office ever again (not even honorary town dog catcher), and lose whatever pension they might have coming.
It is time to clear out the deadwood.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Simple:
People want to see something done to protect them even when it isn't possible.
Politicians are doing exactly what they are supposed to do, get themselves re-elected by catering to those that elected them.
The sad fact is most people didn't elect them though, just a small, focused, and motivated groups. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Don't complain when they do this when your idea of participating in politics is going to vote.
That is the smallest part of participation.
It would be no different to say you ran a marathon after driving it in an SUV, getting out 10 feet in front of the finish line and crossing it. You didn't run a marathon and voting is just crossing the finish line of the political system. We are lazy.
People are pissed at special interest groups because a group of people pooled their money, hired lobbiest, and worked hard to get their agenda through.
A few Special Interest Groups
NRA
Teacher's Union
Pharmacutical Companies
Trade Unions
Your Local Church\Syna\Mosq\temp\etc....
The United Union of Gnome Collectors
International Union of Bloggers
Red Cross\Crescent
GLBA-ETC (can keep up anymore with them...)
PETA
Green Peace
Shriners
Masons
NAACP
Free Press Ascc.
WC3
EFF
YOUR EMPLOYER
Which one are you a member of? Want your voice silenced or ignored? Every time you hear them say that special interest groups have to go, don't forget some of the ones above...
If all the people complaining about special interest groups made thier OWN special interest group you'd dwarf the resources of all the others at $5 dollars a month. Informal servey at my local mall reveals the only people that complain about special interest groups involved in government, well, don't belong to one.
We get the government we deserve and right now we deserve little if anything.
Obama talks about change, but he's from the same democrates that have been running around for over a 100 years. What change was there? Mc Cain is a republican? Why keep flip-flopping between two parties that have shown in the last 100 years their primary goal is to grab more power for... well their own party.
Seriously, we have no one to blame for this except ourselves. If we want change we need to stop listening to money, advertisements, and nicely laid out speeches and catch phrases and start listening to reason. The time for 15 minutes attention spans needs to come to a halt!
'08 Looks like this:
Hillary: "Why the hell would I vote for a women that didn't have the balls to throw out her cheating husband after at least 12 years of infidelity. If you can tolerate a traitor in your marriage where else would you?"
Barack: "I've done little in congress, have no military campaign experience, and I am basically a closet socialist that lacks the balls to run as a socialist (not saying their bad). I'll bring change by following party lines and making sure that I keep my democrat backers happy..."
Mc Cain: .... .... .... I think we have a pulse.... "The tubes need to be regulated..." .... can we get a canidate that isn't a fossil? Please...
We have no sense of personal responsibility left as a nation and can't perform the most basic forms of critical thinking. We beg for Big Brother in our actions and expectations but condemn Big Brother in our words.
We compain about the cops when they are there and bitch about them never being around when they're not.
We have come to expect simple answers, simple solutions, in a world that has never been, nor ever will, be simple.
We have become a planet (not just to pick on the US) of hypocrite.
The environmental types complain about global warming and want ethanol but then bitch about people starving due to high food costs
The capitalist demand free market but work hard and making sure patents and copyright are enforced by the government rather then market forces.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
There is a group on facebook to lobby Senator Obama and follow-up groups to lobby every Senator individually:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=17961184023
Groups for Minnesota Senators Klobuchar and Coleman:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=17065979228
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=18283117073
You are assuming the evidence is being used against you. As it turns out, if the cops illegally search you, and find evidence of wrongdoing on the part of someone else, that other person has no grounds to appeal the illegality of the search. Nor, unsurprisingly, do you have grounds to object to the search - the recourse for an illegal search is that the results cannot be used against you. Thus, you have no recourse if they're going after someone else.
Note that this is a double-edged blade; if they find something searching someone else's stuff on you, you have no recourse. Before this legislation the evidence could be thrown out because the telecom tap was illegal. Now, it's not.
[Ego]out
Personally, I'd like to see a new Constitutional Ammendment that every 8 to 16 years, the nation as a whole votes on all the congress critters and senators as an aggregate group, Yes / No. And if they get a "NO" then they (the aggregate whole lot) can never run for any office ever again (not even honorary town dog catcher), and lose whatever pension they might have coming.
Exactly who is going to enact such vindictive and short sighted legislation? That would be a great way to further expand the power of the executive branch so maybe Emperor Bush would be in favor. Darth Cheney would certainly approve.
Really, I think we already have enough cowardly, pandering, and/or dogmatic leadership as it is. Realistic term limits (say 12 years max in either branch of congress) would substantially accomplish your goals. Not that I expect those to ever get into law either.
The quote from Bin Laden really drives it home, all the US really need with all their new legal powers to spy on and detain w/o authorization or cause is a good criteria for which doors to mark with paint to maintain power. At least I think thats how Mein Kampf lays it out. I think I missed a step about the 'keep your eye on the common enemy' trick, thank goodness THAT hasn't happened.
"...or one of the US's homegrown borderline paranoid schizophrenic, Slashdot using, conspiracy theorists"
There....fixed it.
"I will Vote Third Party for President If Telecom Immunity Passes Into Law NO MATTER WHAT THE FUCK YOU DO."
I finally updated my sig, but now it's lame.
1. AIPAC
The real fact is, people always think its the "other" guy that is the problem, their representative is the "good one". Just like when public school discussions come up, the one you send your kid too is the best, its not like those "other" schools.
While I don't favor the idea of removing choice from our voting ability, term limits make sense because we really have no choice. Being able to choose one side of the same coin over another is not a choice. Democrats and Republicans are most often the only people we can choose to vote for and they work to redistrict us out of alternatives and worse write laws which are backed by courts and even the press to prevent third party candidates from given a chance. The D & R parties don't care about their voters, just look how the Democrats have dismissed Michigan and Florida voters, yet will scream sometime down the road as in the past that "Every vote must count" - that is until the vote isn't to their liking.
I would prefer term limits, 2 terms in Congress, no more. It can mean twice as a Senator, twice as a Representative, or once as both.
Someone mentioned that Senators don't represent us but instead represent the states. That is wrong, they USED to represent the states but that protection for the states was lost by Amendment turning over their election to popular vote. This coincided nicely with the run up in Federal Power assisted by stacked courts. If anything the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed or we need term limits. Until Congress again answers to the public we will never have our rights protected.
When the people who govern you are not afraid of you you have no right.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I'm surprised, these attempts by the Executive to ease their lives gets so much attention, when far grosser violations of the Executive/Judiciary powers have been accepted/condoned for decades.
The most glaring example is "licensing" in general, and licensing the drivers — taxpayers wishing to use the tax-payed public roads — in particular. The Executive government gives the licenses and is free to take them away — without any Judicial oversight and without having to convict the accused of any sort of wrongdoing. Even if in most locales a traffic citation can be disputed in front of a judge, it is only because the Executive does not want to bother with their own procedures. And in New York they do — you only get to argue in a "traffic court", which is part of the Executive branch.
Why does not it shock anybody, that more and more activities require a license, and thus the Executive Branch has more and more ways to make more and more people's lives miserable without even obtaining any sort of conviction (civil or criminal)?
I'm not saying, the government's ability to monitor foreign phone-calls is a complete non-issue. But far more important impediments to freedom — taxpayer has no right (which can only be taken away by a court) to use a public road, only a privilege (which police can withdraw) to do so — have existed for decades with nary a whisper of outrage...
Similarly, why do we accept, that operating a business (or renovating one's own house!) is not a right (the sacred pursuit of pursuit of happiness), but a mere privilege, exercising which requires paying fees and, quite often, jumping through significant hoops and accepting serious limitations?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Elected representatives are motivated by a Superman Complex. They want to "save" everybody and are hyper-sensitive to requests from those who will contribute to their campaigns and keep them in the position that allows them to "do something" about their constituents' fears.
> That's something that scares me about Obama. He seems to be capable of doing no evil, according to many of his supporters.
That's not true. I disagree with him strongly about approving a FISA that allows immunity. I wrote them about that. And I stopped donating until there's some reform.
But that doesn't mean I suddenly plan to vote for McCain. McCain is strongly in favor of taking away our liberty and in favor of telecom immunity.
I'd rather have a 3rd rate fireman than a 1st class arsonist as president.
So if all the focus is "Obama is evil!" I'm still going to complain, because you'd have us ignore McCain, Bush and the rest. Those two in particular plan to create more problems. I'm not happy with Obama over this. But I'm even more disgusted with McCain.
Please. At least the Executive branch has term limits.
Only the President. That's the important one to be sure but I've always wondered if term limits shouldn't go further down the food chain. There is no term limit for the Vice-President or any cabinet level position. Cabinet level positions are sometimes held for more than one administration. For example Cheney and Rumsfeld served in the Ford and Bush administrations. Rumsfeld also served in the Nixon administration and Cheney served in the Bush Sr administration. Furthermore lower level bureaucrats often stick around for multiple administrations.
Lets not vote for any congressman/senator that is in support. And lets stop using the telecoms in question. If its all of them, then so beit.
I know my congressman was actually against it, so I've got less work to do that most of ya'll. Get to it.
I wonder if anyone in the house or senate is at all uneasy or even concerned about the American public running out of options...
Dare I take the chance....?
"Telecom Immunity Bill Hides Spying Provisions"
It's hard to do so with all the other issues and only two people to choose from. I think approval voting would change the red v blue game, and some people are coming out on local levels to support alternative voting systems. Recently in Champaign County, home to the University of Illinois, there was a proposed referendum on instant runoff voting. While I oppose it, it might be better than our current one-vote-per-office system. Even better would be approval voting, which has one vote per candidate. Most people that I've talked to haven't thought of a different way to vote. They only know that there's electronic, paper, etc. Instant runoff voting has a big drawback with a strategy called "vote this guy for #2", but at least someone out there knows we aren't voting in the most sincere way.