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Researchers Improve Solar Cell Performance

Vegematic writes "Researchers at MIT have improved solar collectors using dyes. They just increased their performance results by a factor of 4. These paint-on materials can increase the power obtained from existing solar cells by a factor of over 40 without needing to track the sun. 'By collecting light over their full surface and concentrating it at their edges, these devices reduce the required area of solar cells and consequently, the cost of solar power. Stacking multiple concentrators allows the optimization of solar cells at each wavelength, increasing the overall power output.' There is also a shorter FAQ available."

292 comments

  1. Well.. by grajzor · · Score: 3, Funny

    Imagine that Window come crashing down... *cough*

    1. Re:Well.. by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      of all the bullshit the factor of 40 really had me cringe, current solar cells are anywhere from 8 to 30% effective, even 40 * 8 is well over 100...

      I'll be happy when there is a month going by without an announcement of some future improvement of solar cells but a proven and ready to ship announcement of say 5 ... 10% or so.

    2. Re:Well.. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      I think I understand where they're coming from. They're quoting the efficiency gain of fixed size solar cells without the concentrator vs with a concentrator.

      For example, 4 10mmx1m solar cell generate, say, 100W when directly illuminated by the sun. (40,000 mm^2 makes 2.5mW/mm^2). When placed on the edge of a stack of 1mx1m collector plates 10mm thick, they can generate 2500W (2.5mW/mm^2 * 1e6 mm^2). There's a factor of 25.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    3. Re:Well.. by Tpl2000 · · Score: 1

      You did your math wrong. what's 40x.08? in your math, you display 8% as 800%, which destroyed any chance of your answer being correct.

      --
      Epic. Just epic.
    4. Re:Well.. by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      right, but a 'normal' solar cell will also produce quite a bit more power when you shine concentrated sunlight on it. I tried this a couple of years ago, basically the only limit I could find was how well I could cool the cells. This led to some interesting experiments where the wiring would melt from the front of the cell (it's soldered on) with the backs being immersed in water!

      The amazing thing is that the crystalline structure withstood the enormous difference in temperature between the front of the cell and the back quite well. Eventually we settled on immersing the cells in distilled water (it doesn't conduct), with a very small film of water sitting between the glass front and the cell. Like that you can boost the output of regular solar cells quite impressively. You *will* have to beef up the wiring on the front of the cells (that's the weakest link by far).

      A pic of the concentrator I used still lives here:

      http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/renewables/concentrator/

    5. Re:Well.. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
      Neat rig!

      I think the point of the 'new' concentrators is that you don't have to steer the array. Sunlight incident from any angle will be steered to the cells full-strength. I imagine a dome of concentrator material will a ring of cells around the base. Wherever the sun is shining it's hitting the concentrator head-on and passing it to the edges via total internal reflection, I guess.

      Anyway, thanks for the reply, and keep experimenting!

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  2. Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Atomm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You know, when they post another story about the incredible discoveries in solar power that seem to never actually make it to those of us who would be interested if it was cheaper and more efficient..... Show me a company that is already selling this stuff and then I'll be interested.

    1. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by rumblin'rabbit · · Score: 5, Funny
      The headlines should read

      Energy Crisis Solved Third Time This Week!

      right above

      Cancer Cured Seventh Time This Year!

    2. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Unending · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the truth is the energy crisis *is* solvable, but the bureaucracy responsible doesn't have any incentive to implement the solutions.

    3. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by digitrev · · Score: 2, Informative

      Umm, if you read the FAQ, they said that they're hopeful that this improvement will be in production in three years.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    4. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by oever · · Score: 5, Interesting

      All sentences in the linked article are artfully crafted to contain snippets like 'increases power', 'decreases cost'.

      However the linked movie is fairly insightful.

      What they're saying is: we absorb light in the coating. Most of then energy that's absorbed is transmitted through the glass to the frame, where it is converted into electrical energy. This idea is from the '70s, but advances in the materials used have improved the efficiency.

      Nevertheless, no word is uttered on any practical installations, nor is there any mention of the efficiency compared to the most efficient currently available system, which is very suspicious.

      If this becomes popular and oil prices go up, you better get used to living in an orange environment.
      Since this coating absors mainly non-orange, it might be possible to combine this with greenhouses. The plants get the orange light and the coating takes the rest.

      --
      DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
    5. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um, if you were paying attention, there's another announcement from some company about their revolutionary increases in solar efficiency every couple of months. They're always 'hopeful' it will be in production 'in a few of years'. It never quite manages to materialize. That is what GP is bitching about (quite justifiably).

    6. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Sockatume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "seem to never actually make it to those of us who would be interested"

      You say that as though all of the previous breakthrough announcements have turned out to be dead ends or something. Turning basic research into a product takes years, if not decades, so it shouldn't be surprising that you're having to wait a little.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    7. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by maxume · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of other things that can be done if oil prices go up. Besides, oil prices don't have a whole lot to do with the price of electricity.

      (If things get holy shit on a brick terrible, it would not be that big a deal to simply nationalize natural gas fields and convert/build some minimum number of lng vehicles in order to actually have an economy, or start up a bunch of coal liquification systems or whatever. Those are peak oil disaster scenarios, not likely eventualities.)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    8. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YES, YOU CAN WELL TRY with this company:
      we have already ordered solar concentrators from them, and they are by far the most efficient ever...portable and compact enough and cheap too, yes:

      energiapower.com

    9. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by QuantumRiff · · Score: 4, Informative

      NanoSolar was all over slashdot for quite some time... (they basically print solar panels on flexible plastic). They are much cheaper than regular solar panels (although much less effecient per sq. meter, but the cost/watt is still cheap) You can now buy them. However, their production capacity for the next few years is already purchased, so you might find them from a distributor, if you know someone who knows someone..

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    10. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That forgot to mention 1 panel will only cost $5,000 each. Now all of us can afford one, and run our house on it, and save the environment. And gas will be $10 a gallon, isnt life great !!!!!

    11. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by philspear · · Score: 1

      Oil? So if I paint my solar car orange it will actually work? I'm more worried about coal prices as far as the electrical socket goes. I've never really gotten the connection between oil and electricity if someone wants to fill me in?

    12. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I read the following:

      They...hopeful...will be...years

    13. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by element-o.p. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Okay, just being contrarian, but in a free-market society, what bureaucracy is responsible for implementing solutions? I thought the market would demand, and businesses would respond?

      Granted, government can do a lot to encourage the growth of a new industry, but is it really government's job to produce industries?

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    14. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Informative

      amen to that! This has got to be the 10th unique solar panel breakthrough article this year. They must be up to what like 110% efficiency by now? lol. But seriously, a 4x improvement?! This should be for sale to consumers and being built into power plants in about 3 months. I mean it's free, unlimited power FFS! And yet still nothing. Is it all the government's fault for slowing it all down? Is it patent squatters? Is it oil compant patent buyouts? Whatever it is, they should quit it so I can buy a decent solar panel!

      --
      Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    15. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by BoberFett · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Government solutions give us things like minimum requirements of corn-based ethanol in your gasoline because: Nothing is quite as intelligent as using your food supply to haul Chinese made goods around the country.

    16. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Original+Replica · · Score: 4, Interesting

      but in a free-market society, what bureaucracy is responsible for implementing solutions?

      That bureaucracy would be the government. Not because they want stop solar, but because they feel the need to intervene where certain crucial resources are concerned because you can't have retired Floridians that live on fixed incomes dying because they can't pay the electric bill and keep the AC running. I'm not saying that my example is a likely outcome of an unregulated power market, but it is most certainly an example that is used in making sure that the power market stays regulated. California has struggled with an unregulated power supply industry. All argument about the pluses and minuses of government regulation aside, the fact is that in most places electricity is a regulated utility and that serves to help contain fluctuating costs and ensure a steady supply. That government assurance lessens the attraction of being energy self sufficient, and that lessened desirability fails to counterbalance the added costs and maintainance of home solar, for most homeowners. If electricity were seen less as a city supplied utility and more of a commodity with many consumer options (like gasoline or groceries) I think that the public interest in solar would be much higher and the available solar products would be more refined.

      --
      We are all just people.
    17. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by von_rick · · Score: 1

      ....but is it really government's job to produce industries?

      If government doesn't produce industries then the industries create governments; you know - just like in the In Soviet Russia noun verbs you kinda joke.

      --

      Face your daemons!

    18. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah. your attitude lends it self really well to sustainability. You're a stupid fucking troll. You aren't interested in anything besides your next bag of dorritos and HDTV.

    19. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Happy to. Those trains that deliver the coal to coal burning plants aren't tapping the supply behind them. :) Them's "clean-burin'" diesel engines.

      This sure as heck is a small modifier, but it is a cost for the transport.

    20. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Idbar · · Score: 1

      There's also something I cannot understand. So, if they concentrate light on the borders, yet, light passes through, why not stacking them until no light passes, and use all the concentrated energy at the borders.

      If there is still light crossing, isn't still a way of keep re-concentrating it using the same material?

    21. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Original+Replica · · Score: 4, Interesting

      oil prices don't have a whole lot to do with the price of electricity.

      They will if coal to gasoline ever takes hold. Every dollar that oil rises makes that more likely, and once there is a huge new demand for coal prices for electricity from coal powered plants will rise accordingly. Coal accounts for 49.7% of US electrical power. Coal and oil will also begin to effect each other if/when electric commuter cars become common. I admit that I only present ways in which oil prices might effect electricity prices, but I think they are both distinct possibilities in the near future. (kinda like every new solar break through we read about)

      --
      We are all just people.
    22. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Nothing is quite as intelligent as using your food supply to haul Chinese made goods around the country

      You use gas powered trucks?!? (Not even in the US those exist AFAIK!) Wrong crop.... For biodiesel one can use Rapeseed, for example... Which is not human food but food for livestock.

      (Yes, yes, I know: farmers will stop growing food for humans if food for biodiesel is more profitable.)

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    23. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by thegsusfreek · · Score: 1

      True that! Same for LCDs being made with inkjet printer technology. How many times I've seen articles for both of these topics and yet we still don't actually have them!

    24. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've never really gotten the connection between oil and electricity if someone wants to fill me in?

      If oil were free, then all electrical power would be generated from oil. If electricity were free, then oil use would be near-zero because people would be cracking H2 in their homes to fill their hydrogen powered vehicles. That there is a current situation where a small amount of electricity is powered from oil (I'm in Alaska and the vast majority of area covered by power lines is powered by oil, but we are an exception) is mainly because of the economics where oil is a better mobile fuel than coal, and coal is cheaper for generating electricity. If all oil were gone tomorrow, we'd be generating gasoline or diesel type liquids from coal, and coal prices would jump and so would electricity because of it. They aren't linked in that oil goes up $1 and so does electricity. But large changes in price either way will change the demand for the other (with significant market delay when it comes to getting electric or plugable hybrids, but it is happening now none the less).

    25. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It also gave us nuclear power, satellites and the internet... but no one uses that shit.

    26. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactly right...thanks for stating what so many of us rightfully skeptical people are thinking.

    27. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by FrameRotBlues · · Score: 1

      Because this dye just directs a certain wavelength of light towards the edge. The 40X factor comes in comparing solar cells placed on the edge of a pane of glass without dye, vs. with dye. And this is 4X better than previous dyes.

      This might be useful for office buildings with a lot of glass facing the sun, and nowhere to stick solar panels.

      If you wanted to get the most efficiency, you'd turn the solar cell 90 degrees to it's discussed position, and put it perpendicular to the light, e.g. parallel to the glass, or directly behind the glass. Or just remove the glass and put the solar cell there, which is what most people think of when they see solar panels.

    28. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 2, Funny

      For biodiesel one can use Rapeseed, for example...

      You can use crappy hentai for biodiesel? I'm rich!

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    29. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by vikstar · · Score: 1

      Uranium should suffice until fusion works.

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
    30. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by kaizokuace · · Score: 2, Funny

      oh, you think we still have a free market system?

      --
      Balderdash!
    31. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by IkeTo · · Score: 1

      If not for the greenhouse gas that we would release to the atmosphere, and if not for the water level rise that would result if a good proportion of either the Greenland or Antarctica ice sheets melt, I wouldn't care at all if people use up all oil and coal reserves. The problem is that the use of oil and coal is associated with some serious cost that people, whether or not being producers or consumers, must face. "The market" won't make it, the issue can only be dealt with by the governments, and by all governments.

    32. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      what bureaucracy is responsible for implementing solutions

      I think there's a bureaucracy responsible for internalising externalities, such as environmental costs, economic stability, and the like.

    33. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

      If people get over their fears of nuclear power. A massive country wide nuclear power plant building spree would need to take place. Right now we have over 100 nuke plants that supply 20% of our electricity. So to bump out coal's 50% of power generated entirely, we would need to build about 250 new nuclear power plants. It would be great if it happened, but it would take decades.

      --
      We are all just people.
    34. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When government chooses winners; it can never go back to a free economy. Unfortunately, the government has been choosing winners in Energy for a long time. It is one of the areas in which we are a communistic country; and it shows, we have aging decrepit energy infrastructure - while our television/telephone/internet infrastructure is quite modern by comparison. The FCC has done a much better job of providing competition for wire services than the Energy Department has for its wire services.

      (Also, the gov. must internalize externalities - but in asking the question, you've identified yourself as probably not understanding those two words. A little econ 101 might help, as it's an important point.)

    35. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      And for that matter, LCDs! I remember hearing hundreds of times about LCD monitors on the horizon, and how 'real soon' we would all be switching to monitors that were only a few inches thick. When are we going to get them?!?!?!

    36. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, will someone point me towards this free-market society people keep talking about?

    37. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two simple ways to judge TFA (that I haven't read)...

      1. A breakthrough for who/what?

      2. 4x improvement over what/when?

      I'm 50yo and from my own experience the world has definitely changed, IMHO mainly in a good way. Breakthroughs do occur, and when you take science/technology as a whole they have occured at an astonishing rate over the last half century. However even with a science degree and a lifetime of practice reading these things, unless you know something about the subject it can be difficult to tell if a press release is a breakthrough, an advert, or a plea for funding.

      "Whatever it is, they should quit it so I can buy a decent solar panel!"

      As you suggest, sometimes the technology works well but is not taken up because vested interests have had years to rig the game. For example German roofs are now pumping ~1Gw back on to the grid using the excess generated by private solar panels. Germany is not known for it's sunshine any yet many other countries with much more space and sunshine (eg: here in Australia) won't even look at 'net metering' legislation. Of course it's just a coincidence that coal is a huge export earner for Australia and generates over 90% of it's electricity needs.

      The system has always supported the status-quo so if/when you do buy a decent solar panel you may find it an expensive red tape exercise to install it. Ironically, if you go right back to when domestic electricity supply was the breakthrough, you will find the architect of that breakthrough (Edison) had enormous legal and public relations problems with the entrenched gaslight industry who were hell bent on stopping his electric light company.

      Disclaimer: I'm not saying solar is THE answer, just that due to it's decentralization effects on an existing industry solar has more working against it than mere clouds.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    38. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If government can support gun, military, tobacco industries, why not solar energy?

    39. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by thegsusfreek · · Score: 1

      That was a bit before my time. Well then, that restores in me some hope that one day we may actually benefit from these technologies.

    40. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by ancientt · · Score: 1

      How do you manage to squeeze so much ignorance into so few words?

      Rapeseed aka canola, is human food.

      vegetable oil for human consumption...rapeseed was the third leading source of vegetable oil in the world in 2000

      The term "gas" is usually used to refer to gasoline. While most trucks use diesel, some use gasoline. If you must nitpick, a few even use natural gas as fuel.

      Farmers don't "stop growing food for humans", farmers always grow crops for profit. It isn't really about the purpose of the crop, it is about the use of the product. Corn is human consumable when harvested, regardless of whether it is put to that purpose after processing or not.

      There ought to be a "wikify" button on here. You'll know AI is getting somewhere when you go to post on slashdot and you get a pre-post warning that your statement is verifiably false according to multiple sources.

      --
      B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
    41. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      nanosolar.com

      And they can PRINT THEM OUT LIKE NEWSPAPER.

      Google even dumped money into them - you should KNOW Google doesn't just frivolously throw money around.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    42. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Khyber · · Score: 4, Informative

      "The plants get the orange light and the coating takes the rest."

      Most of the photosynthetic response curve is in the blue and red areas, orange is actually pretty low in the curve and thus many plants do not use that wavelength.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    43. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How do you think the United States built its wonderful continent-spanning railroads in the late 1800s? It shipped in Chinese laborers to work for a few pennies per day. Taking advantage of cheap Chinese is a proud American tradition.

    44. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there is that...

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    45. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by davolfman · · Score: 1

      This one at least sounds easy to implement.

    46. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by benhattman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's such a thing as "The Commons", which would be the parts of society we are all forced to share. The Commons can not be cared for via capitalism, because there's no profit in helping everybody else. Energy is a funny thing, because while energy production is not a part of the commons, its environmental impact is. So is it's impact on national security.

      So, if there's a energy solution that is not quite economically viable, but solves a number of the problems in the commons, it is the governments responsibility to encourage transition to that energy source. FWIW, the right way to do this is by taxing harmful energy and subsidizing clean energy.

    47. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      Nansolar
      BrightSource Energy
      Lots more where those came from. Welcome to the revolution.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    48. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Not a free market
      2. Market demand? How do solar companies become aware of this intangible "demand"??
      3. Econ 101 is just that... intro class. Its a bunch of simplified theory hardly applicable to anything in the real world.
      4. You bring up a good question, maybe we NEED a bureaucracy to come up with solutions to problems :)

    49. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if/when electric commuter cars become common

      Concept of daily commute should be abandoned as relict, IMHO. Telepresence/virtual office from local shared office centers/home offices is the right solution - not wasting another form of energy on unnecessary moving vehicles and physical bodies from home to work and back. We don't really need to breath into each other in order to communicate and cooperate.

    50. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's where the true Scotsmen live.

    51. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Courageous · · Score: 1

      Well. Cable companies are still monopolies, because they will not willingly compete with each other, even when they are permitted. Only the government intervention of separating video from voice (cable vs. phone) and then later allowing those two to compete created that set of competitive elements.

      There are very many areas in the country where cable companies are permitted to compete with each other, but simply do not. They don't, because they run their little calculators, and conclude that if the customer density becomes mixed, then both cable companies lose.

      C//

    52. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The market isn't really free when companies can manipulate the government to get what they want. Neither is it free when companies have monopolies and cartels.

      In all honesty there is no such thing as a free market.

    53. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no no no,
      Soy Beans haul chinese goods, corn is for taking the kids to soccer.

      (BioDiesel v ethanol)

    54. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, they ships around. The chinese came over on their own free will.

      BTWm the Chinese weren't the only one working on the railroad. Blacks, irish, dutch and quite a few other nationalities spent time on it.

    55. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Farmers don't "stop growing food for humans", farmers always grow crops for profit. It isn't really about the purpose of the crop, it is about the use of the product. Corn is human consumable when harvested, regardless of whether it is put to that purpose after processing or not.

      Ethanol is made from dent corn. While technically true that dent corn won't kill someone if they eat it, it isn't something that you would want to eat. The starches and other properties not desirable for human consumption have been encourages and enhanced over the years for a variety of reasons including use as agricultural foods or industrial processes. Sometimes, the corn isn't completely digestible in humans which makes it about as nutrient as eating sawdust.

      Why it was put in is very important because it dictates what it's intended use would be. This is highly contrasting to your claims on it. Dent corn is generally one edible in a very short period of time (around 2 weeks late July in my area) before it get too starchy or undesirable. So if you insist on claiming it is food, it would be more appropriate to claim it is food gone bad and being used to other purposes. Either way, claiming the corn used for ethanol isn't human food is accurate.

    56. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Dolohov · · Score: 1

      If we're already pretending to be in a free-market society, why shouldn't we just pretend we have all the energy we need?

      The best thing government can do at this point is get out of the way.

    57. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, in 90% of the country, electricity is seen as a public utility. This is for a variety of reasons including making sure that running it to economically challenged areas aren't put off by the costs of doing so compared to the profit. In fact, that was one of the main reasons behind giving companies a monopoly in areas.

      But your actually looking at it wrongly. There are two distinct markets in the electricity fields. California didn't deregulate both markets and of course there was some dirty play involved in the mix too. But you have the energy supply market and then you have the delivery market. There are subsets of both like transmission lines and so on and the delivery market can be involved in the energy market but for our purposes, those aren't important.

      The government regulations don't force the the electricity to be sold at a loss. They don't force the power companies to deliver while maintaining a deficit, or in other words, operate at a loss. So if anything, the stabilization of power costs to citizens isn't a set back for alternative energy. It really needs to be competitive on the open market (*energy generation and supply) because it actually has price increases along the way before it gets delivered to the home.

      There is no bureaucracy holding alternative energy back other then the price. There are no regulations stopping you from using alternative energy, some areas have BS regulations about appearances and wildlife and so on. But that isn't a bureaucracy holding it back, it is just adding to the costs. Here is an example, Lets say that a home that heats and cools with electricity can average about $120 electric bill a month. This is reasonable accurate in my area with an average home that has decent insulation. That's around $1440 a year but lets raise it to an even $1,500. Now lets assume that a a typical solar panel has a lifespan of about 25-30 years. We know that it's abilities to create electricity degrades of time but we can ignore that for now. That would mean for a home owner just to break even, installation, maintenance, couldn't be more then $45,000 for a 30 year solution. That hardly touches a set of solar panels, installed and fitted with appropriate safety devices and capable of displacing the current load on a house. Then you need a way of storing the energy to be used when the sun isn't around, so a bank of batteries that will need to be replaced every 5-10 years or some other storage method and an inverter needs to be put in. Keep in mind that the 45 grand over 30 years is at a profit to a utility company as well as the energy suppliers so the setup for 30 years needs to be at a profit for whoever sells the solar panels and such.

      I know I'm not accounting for inflation, increased billing rates and all. I think it is more or less going to be a wash with items being used getting more and more energy efficient as well as how the solar panels loose capacity due to damage from UV light and all. You also have to remember that whatever the future power cost will be, it will remain close to the same purchasing power over the long haul. Cost is still the biggest problem with solar for the homeowner. It is more of a feel good thing right now then a competitor to local utilities. Maybe once some patents run out and the Chinese can mass product the stuff using lead paint and other secrete manufacturing techniques, that will change. Until then, it will be much like the touch screens and such that didn't find wide spread adoption until after the patents ran out.

    58. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You mean like Amtrak?

      The government can't create efficient industries. The only thing they can do is protect them and keep them alive. It doesn't even do that well.

    59. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      What are the dollar amounts associated with environmental costs and who gets the payment?

      If you even remotely say that the people who share the environment get the payments then you have defeated your own argument because the payment can be made by reduced costs of the product. In other words, every company either pays you a check and you purchase more expensive products, or we hide the costs and you simply pay less for products. it is a wash.

    60. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      There are very many areas in the country where cable companies are permitted to compete with each other, but simply do not. They don't, because they run their little calculators, and conclude that if the customer density becomes mixed, then both cable companies lose.

      That is the reasoning behind giving them the monopoly in the first place. It was to make areas that were not economically feasible, a covered area in exchange for not having competition. It is no wonder that when you look at those areas and say no competition is there because no one would make money, that you are right. The problem is that with competition, cable wouldn't likely be there at all.

    61. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Coal plants spray a diesel fuel onto the coal as it goes into the furnace to ensure even burning and ignition. At the Plants I have been to, they used JPL4. The ratio of coal to oil is really small, something like less then .01% oil but at the quantities being used, it adds up quickly. The one plant, had a 750 million gallon silo that was refilled by barges every 2-3 days. There is a reserve capacity that allows them to wait a period of time before refueling so they aren't going through 750 million gallons that fast. But the one station was designed to operate at 1,300-megawatt and has since then recieved efficiency upgrades that increase production capabilities 3 times.

      There are also substations that provide peak energy on demand. These stations are usually diesel powered. One station I was at had 3 production sheds. Two of the older units used 24 cylinder diesel ship motors and on used a turbine engine like what would be used in a jet aircraft. These all used oil and were less efficient then the coal plants by they were only needed when peak usage went over a certain threshold. I know of 15 locations of the substations in Ohio alone, That is only with the small amounts of work I have done with one company. I'm sure there are more as it seems to be less expensive to account for peak demand with these smaller operations then with entire facilities that would need to be run 24/7 and manned. These sub stations were computerized and remotely controlled and very little of it needed people on the ground to operate. I also found it interesting that they have managed to seal them up so tight that you could barely hear a hum inside the fenced area and you wouldn't need to raise your voice with all to communicate with all three units running. We actually had to look at lights above the sheds in order to verify if they were on or not. We weren't in any danger but we had to pay close attention to certain areas if they were on.

      Those lights were another interesting thing but that is getting too far off point. It had other lights that would flash to tell you if one of the tell lights was burnt out or if the backup power supply was too weak to power them. If one of the other light were lit then you know not to trust the tell lights.

    62. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Courageous · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Truly, I don't know what the right answer is.

      At least we have the cable and telephone companies competing for broadband now. When both Verizon (FIOS) and AT&T (U-Verse) start winning away cable customers in droves, the cable companies will have to react. You'd think, anyway.

      C//

    63. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      If you even remotely say that the people who share the environment get the payments then you have defeated your own argument because the payment can be made by reduced costs of the product.

      Assuming every person uses every product equally (or at the same ratio that they share the environment), which they most assuredly do not.

      The money goes to the agency responsible for clean-up and to general well-fare expenses.

    64. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Our internet infrastructure is "quite modern" in comparison with whom? Zimbabwe? Most industrialized nations have far more regulation, and also far better broadband penetration. I don't think that's a coincidence.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    65. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Every one uses products from different manufacturers equally. There is a trade off. If you use 5 units of brand X and I use 5 units of brand Y we are equal. When I use 6, I have lessened your requirement to use 5 units.

      It really is a situation where people are repaid with cheaper prices.

      But your skipping the important step of determining what the impact is, how to measure it, and how to charge for it. Are you going to be happy when Brand Y is twice as expensive because it has to pay for some contrived expense? Are you going to use brand Z which is already more expensive because they mitigated the contrived risks or damages?

    66. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by mcguire · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, Nanosolar's output was entirely spoken for by large utility installations for the next 12 months of production at least. However, their CEO did say this recently:

      "Update 4/30: Thank you for the hundreds of comments we have received to this posting via email. Our team has read and digested every single of them. To those of you who are disappointed that our first product is not for residential homeowners, we can reassure you that we do have a fabulous residential solution on our near-term roadmap -- one that will bring the utility scale economics of Nanosolar Utility Panel technology to homes everywhere, and completely redefine how residential solar is done."

      So perhaps they'll release a consumer product sooner than I think; let's hope!

    67. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by Taibhsear · · Score: 1

      Since this coating absorbs mainly non-orange, it might be possible to combine this with greenhouses. The plants get the orange light and the coating takes the rest.

      Probably not going to happen. The wavelengths of light that plants absorb effects their growth patterns. IIRC blue light encourages growth along the stalk upwards. Red light encourages widening growth laterally. Though the plants should be able to photosynthesize, it wouldn't be as good and they'd not germinate properly.

    68. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by oever · · Score: 1

      The amount of light needed for steering growth is very small. The plant notices the difference in intensity in different wavelengths.
      The amount of light that's available for photosynthesis is the only real limitation. It might be significant.

      --
      DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
    69. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      Every one uses products from different manufacturers equally. There is a trade off. If you use 5 units of brand X and I use 5 units of brand Y we are equal. When I use 6, I have lessened your requirement to use 5 units.

      No, we don't. I consume considerably less than many people I know. And some products have much lower external costs. And, um...you using six rolls of toilet paper doesn't mean I only need four instead of my usual five.

      But your skipping the important step of determining what the impact is, how to measure it, and how to charge for it.

      I don't know--we probably can't get it exactly right--but I know it's not zero. We can estimate the medical costs associated with pollution. We charge for it using taxes, obviously. That's how it's done right now, you know. I'm not proposing a new system. This is what we DO because economic theory says it's the most efficient way.

    70. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      No, we don't. I consume considerably less than many people I know. And some products have much lower external costs. And, um...you using six rolls of toilet paper doesn't mean I only need four instead of my usual five.

      I already addressed that with the over consumption and different choices of consumption. The impact is going to be ultimately broken down to a per unit basis. If your not paying for it in savings, then someone else will when they buy it instead

      I don't know--we probably can't get it exactly right--but I know it's not zero. We can estimate the medical costs associated with pollution. We charge for it using taxes, obviously. That's how it's done right now, you know. I'm not proposing a new system. This is what we DO because economic theory says it's the most efficient way.

      You know it isn't zero so you think some tax should be there. Well, lets look at this, first, lets asume I am a doctor and I don't want patients who don't pay so I charge 5 times as much as any other doctor. How do you figure my fees in with the "medical cost"? How about when you find that I'm not alone, most doctors do that and other doctors have to raise their fees to cover the nonpayments from patients who don't pay their bills? So lets assume the medical costs are inflated, do we go with them as a whole or do we work out an actual cost? And by what standards?

      Ok, now, lets asume that the "Medical costs" have been established. What does the Tax do? Does it pay my medical bills? So far the tobacco tax hasn't. But I have been paying more for smokes because it will increase my medical costs. Well, lets assume that we goto a socialized medical system and it will somehow magically pay for your or our health costs. What does the manufacturer do? They increase the costs of the product to cover the costs of the tax. They want to make a certain profit off of the stuff and they will. Now with the tobacco, people had the option to opt out and quit using the product. So what happens with electricity? What happens with food? What happens with clothing and other textiles or transportation to and from work? What about housing? There is no opting out and you will have to pay the extra costs which puts us right back to my original position, you either pay for it in monetary terms or you pay for it in savings when you use the products.

      Sure, there might be a year or so before everything goes up to reflect it, but don't fool yourself, if the Utilities sectors can make 6% profit, they will continue to after you increase their costs because of a tax. If the home builder makes 20% profit they will continue to after the tax. When the automakers aren't making a profit right now, how long before before they are out of business when the tax makes the dig into savings even more? Do you think paying $15,000 for a decent car that would have sold for around $7,000-10,000 just 30 years ago is way too much That costs is because of CAFE standards, mandates safety standards and devices and Union contracts forcing the automakers to charge more.

      And no, I'm not saying that those things weren't needed, I'm saying that those things illustrate my point. You can no longer work and save to buy a new car, you have to use other people's money in the form of a loan because of all the added costs imposed from outside sources. My Uncle purchased a brand new Corvette Stingray in 1967-68 for $4300 decked out. The same car today, top of the line and off the showroom floor except the new model, is almost $50,000. They are proportionally the same for the era in power, handling (except for the traction control), interior, sound system, and so on. Hell, the new CAFE standards alone are supposed to an another $4000 to the costs of a car in 2015 when they take effect. And that estimate is without adjustments for inflation. The CBO (Congressional
      Budget Office) estimates that the NEW CAFE standards will cost 3.6 billion extra each year once they are in effect.

    71. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      I already addressed that with the over consumption and different choices of consumption. The impact is going to be ultimately broken down to a per unit basis. If your not paying for it in savings, then someone else will when they buy it instead

      Um...right. The cost to me is offset by the benefit to the person buying the product which isn't always me. They're reaping the reward of lower prices at my expense of having the pollution dumped in my back yard (or, rather, next door, where it can leach into my groundwater). A given externality typically does not harm each person equally. That's what defines it as an externality: the cost is paid for by someone not involved in the transaction.

      And the problem--other than the issue of me being screwed over--is that while the cost to me is X, the benefit to the purchaser needs only be greater than zero. It can still be far below X, since the person paying X isn't deciding whether the transaction is worthwhile and should take place.

    72. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Um...right. The cost to me is offset by the benefit to the person buying the product which isn't always me. They're reaping the reward of lower prices at my expense of having the pollution dumped in my back yard (or, rather, next door, where it can leach into my groundwater). A given externality typically does not harm each person equally. That's what defines it as an externality: the cost is paid for by someone not involved in the transaction.

      What are you attempting to say here? Does it all boil down to stopping someone else from getting more then you? I could go into how wrong that is but who cares? The difference is that you will either pay more now or later.

      And the problem--other than the issue of me being screwed over--is that while the cost to me is X, the benefit to the purchaser needs only be greater than zero. It can still be far below X, since the person paying X isn't deciding whether the transaction is worthwhile and should take place.

      Here is what we know besides you being afraid that someone might get more then you. If you attempt to quantify the pollution, especially in the respect of Co2 and so on, you are going to pay that price in purchasing the product regardless. And if it jacks the price up so high that pieces of product don't sell, your going to pay more.

      Lets do a little cocktail napkin math. Lets say it breaks down to 1 unit of pollution per piece. Now to manufacture that, I have to pay a tax of 1 dollar for each unit. Lets say I make a widget and I can produce 10,000 a day. I need to charge enough to sell 10,000 units at a marked up price now. So if the units were originally 2 dollars and now they are three, everything is normal. But if people aren't buying them as much, I need to reduce production. Ok, I have already gotten my factories as efficient as technology will allow so I'm still producing 1 unit of product but this time, because of reduced or half empty product runs, I cause 1.25 units of pollution per unit at this reduced capacity. So now I have to mark up $1.25 per unit instead of $1.00. But wait, I'm selling less so I'm making less products, Let's add another $1 to the price so I can make the same amount of money. Now I'm charging $4.25 for something that was originally selling for $2.00.

      If you think that is outrageous, then you better look around. It goes on every day when there isn't a competitor jumping down the isle with a cheaper product. But the pollution tax effect everyone so it won't be a delayed effect. Now people with investment money will see that it takes longer to get a return on investment and they look to others avenues for investment like home mortgages. Now less business' are starting up to compete with the high prices and if none of the competitors go out of business, there will be little change. And god forbid it is a product that is perishable, now we have to figure in how many we plan on throwing away if it doesn't sell just so we don't run out if there is a market surge of some sort.

      In the end, you still have the rich people getting more then you, you just get less until wages find a way to keep up. We are basically right back were we started. Except that you and I went through a lot of unnecessary hard times not being able to afford the inflated products. Some people end up going bank rupt and losing everything for nothing.

    73. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      What are you attempting to say here? Does it all boil down to stopping someone else from getting more then you? I could go into how wrong that is but who cares? The difference is that you will either pay more now or later. ... Here is what we know besides you being afraid that someone might get more then you. If you attempt to quantify the pollution, especially in the respect of Co2 and so on, you are going to pay that price in purchasing the product regardless. And if it jacks the price up so high that pieces of product don't sell, your going to pay more.

      *sigh* It's not that they got more than me. It's that they got more than me at my expense because I'm covering their costs. Your math does not address externalities, which is what this whole debate is about.

      Okay, I'm hoping you're trolling, but maybe I'm just bad at explaining stuff. Either way, I'm done trying to teach Micro-Economics 101 to you. Consider reading an economics textbook and you'll find they all explain this stuff pretty clearly--unless you skip over the majority of what it says as you're doing with my posts--better than I do. The fact that waste is created by taxation does not completely offset the overall benefits of reasonable taxation to internalise externalities Try running the math on the issue at hand next time and you'll see.

    74. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      As I showed, it isn't at your expense. Unless the tax being collected is given to you specifically, the only way your benefiting is buy the product being there. when everything is said and done, your no better off then before except that everything costs more and now you have to make more money.

      What externalities does it not address? Your forgetting that any tax along these lines would be a tax on everything and everyone. It isn't like any one competitor of a product line would be immune to it.

      Also, your not teaching econ 101 to anyone. What you have done is latched onto something and perverted it to your own uses without the ability to take a real look at it. Every single person who thinks environmental externalities and so on should be taxed fails in this way badly. They also forget that any tax would favor imports from countries not in the same tax loop which means that more jobs go overseas and things get even worse in the US.

      Perhaps if you were willing to take a real look at the situation, you wouldn't have any problem explaining stuff clearly. Now would you be repeating the same meaningless lines.

    75. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      Okay, I will try once more. You want the math, so I'll do it, using a simple example 'cause I can't draw graphs, and they require some background anyway.

      Bob can raise delicious pigs for $100 in fixed costs and $100 each.
      A delicious pig is worth $200 to Fred.
      A delicious pig is worth $300 to Kilroy.

      So Bob raises two delicious pigs and sells them for around $175 (anywhere from $150-$200 exclusive, really, assuming all are sold at the same price) each. Society is now better off:
      Bob spent $100+2*$100 = $300 and earned 2*$175 = $350. He's $50 better off.
      Fred spent $175 and got a pig he valued at $200. He's $25 better off.
      Kilroy spent $175 and got a pig he valued at $300. He's $125 better off.
      Total gains to society: $200. Yay!

      But here's what we skipped: to raise these pigs so cheaply, Bob is dumping their faeces just upstream of my house. This pollution is costing me $150 per pig. Because I'm not a party to these pig transactions, my costs aren't being considered. I'm an external cost.

      So the total gain to society is $350-$300 + $200-$175 + $300-$175 - $300 = -$100.
      The problem isn't that other people benefited and I didn't. It's that they got richer at my expense and, as a whole, society got poorer because no one looked at the full cost.

      Now consider these possibilities:
      * Suppose Ben could have properly disposed of all his waste for $10 per pig, and did instead of polluting my yard. Now his cost is $100 fixed costs + $110 per pig.
      So the total gain to society is $350-$300 + $200-$175 + $300-$175 - 2*$10 = $180. Much better than -$100, and that I'm not the one paying that $20 is also desirable. Ben shouldn't get to just force me to pay his costs if I'm not buying anything from him. (NOT the main point.)

      * Suppose Ben could properly have disposed of all his waste for $60 per pig, and did instead of polluting my yard. Now his cost is $100 fixed costs + $160 per pig.
      If he raises and sells two, the total gain to society is $350-$300 + $200-$175 + $300-$175 - 2*$60 = $80. Still positive, but -$50 for Ben. So he won't do that.
      So he'll only raise one, and raise the price to $250 (anything $200-$300 exclusive): $250-$200 + $300-$250 - $60 = $40. A small benefit, but a lot higher than the -$100 we started with.

      Nothing in there about people getting rich while I remain the same being a problem. The problem is that I'm paying for other people's stuff and they (or the market) aren't taking that in consideration when deciding what to produce. Were the disposal costs $110 per pig, then cost of making a pig would be--at any quantity--over $210 and therefore costs more to produce than it's worth to the buyer (Fred). It doesn't take a genius to say 'Oh, then we shouldn't produce it'. We need to internalise the cost to get the market to say that.

      A fuller explanation is easily seen with a couple quick supply and demand graphs.

    76. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Okay, I will try once more. You want the math, so I'll do it, using a simple example 'cause I can't draw graphs, and they require some background anyway.

      Nice try but.... as we already discussed, the tax on the environmental effect won't be going to you, you will still have the overhead and have to pay more.

      Your also skipping a few realities on this. How is the pollution costing you anything? Two, I know your shoving numbers but we don't allow our industry to "pollute" in ways that you would have to clean up. If your answer was in purifying drinking water, you have to do that anyways.

      Also, fred and kilroy will take the pig(s), make pig foods like ham and bacon and other things, then he will either sell them to you or someone else, or eat them freeing demand on other foods which keeps the price to you down. If there is one less pig or the cost of both pigs jump, there becomes less demand for it and more demand for the foods you do eat. This causes your foods to increase in costs and you have effected yourself in the same way.

      I actually misread some of what you were saying and was implanting the "Eco Warrior" Co2 is pollutions BS in with your premise. With something like Co2 being taxed, it really would be a wash. with the pigs, it would be spread out a little more and not as big of an impact. But really, outside of a natural disaster, what industry is allowed to pollute streams or lands to a point that you have to clean something up when they are doing it? I used to work in the environmental services area and outside of failed companies where the government steps in, the company responsible generally pays for all cleanup and monitoring. I have seen companies actually waste money cleaning their own messes up.

    77. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      As I showed, it isn't at your expense.

      You showed no such thing. When I lived a mile or so from a hog farm, I had to smell the waste. That's a cost I bore, whether I ate pork or not, and while pork may be fungible, food as a whole certainly is not. How much would I pay to not smell it? Not much, but I'm sure many people in the area would have. That's a cost we all bore that most people consuming those pigs did not.

      Your forgetting that any tax along these lines would be a tax on everything and everyone. It isn't like any one competitor of a product line would be immune to it.

      You don't tax sale of pigs. You tax things that have value/cost (use of the commons, for the most part, whether it be air, water, roads, or anything else).

      Also, your not teaching econ 101 to anyone. What you have done is latched onto something and perverted it to your own uses without the ability to take a real look at it.

      Actual, this is Econ 101, and I didn't pervert it: the entire science of economics has, except they actually have demonstrated empirically that it's fairly accurate.

      They also forget that any tax would favor imports from countries not in the same tax loop which means that more jobs go overseas and things get even worse in the US.

      Yeah, it's a shame we can't put a tax on imported goods with externalities. A tariff, for example. But apparently that's impossible, and totally not exactly what we are doing.

    78. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      Nice try but.... as we already discussed, the tax on the environmental effect won't be going to you, you will still have the overhead and have to pay more.

      The buyers will, yes.

      Also, fred and kilroy will take the pig(s), make pig foods like ham and bacon and other things, then he will either sell them to you or someone else, or eat them freeing demand on other foods which keeps the price to you down.

      Pigs might be fungible, but 'food' is not. If we can lower over-all food prices by X by spending $200 raising pigs or the same by spending $100 raising chickens, we should go the chicken route unless people consider the pigs $100 better than the pigs. With the pig-raising costs partially external, the market won't produce the optimal pig-to-chicken balance. Internalising the costs will cause inefficiencies/waste, but, unless the elasticity is crazy, the gains from full cost accounting will outweigh them.

      the company responsible generally pays for all cleanup and monitoring. I have seen companies actually waste money cleaning their own messes up.

      Because of taxation and regulation. They aren't spend that money because they recognise they're making a mess; they're doing it because the government says 'You can't pollute like that' or 'you have to pay to pollute like that'.

      Your examples of things working aren't showing that we don't need things to be taxed/regulated. They're showing that taxation/regulation is working pretty darn well.

    79. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The buyers will, yes.

      Well, not really because the buyers who don't buy that product will buy a different produce driving the costs of that product up. Eventually it will effect you unless you simply don't eat.

      Pigs might be fungible, but 'food' is not. If we can lower over-all food prices by X by spending $200 raising pigs or the same by spending $100 raising chickens, we should go the chicken route unless people consider the pigs $100 better than the pigs. With the pig-raising costs partially external, the market won't produce the optimal pig-to-chicken balance. Internalising the costs will cause inefficiencies/waste, but, unless the elasticity is crazy, the gains from full cost accounting will outweigh them.

      Well, first your assuming that the pig waste is being dumped and the chicken waste wouldn't be. A market hog weighs in at around 230 to 300 pounds. There are some that weigh more but that is generally were the butter point it as far as what it costs verses return. A dresses pig, well lets not even bother with that because the bones in each are used to make stock and meal for other purposes. A chicken generally weighs in at around 5 to 10 pounds which older chickens that have been layers weigh a couple pounds more. So your looking at 45 to 60 chickens on the low end and 23-30 chickens on the high end to replace one pig in a best case scenario. Not only is the space requirements more, there are a lot more birds with waste to dispose of which will cause the same types of pollution problems as hog facilities. Your making the assumption that somehow, the chickens won't cause the pollution which can be the same for the pigs.

      Because of taxation and regulation. They aren't spend that money because they recognise they're making a mess; they're doing it because the government says 'You can't pollute like that' or 'you have to pay to pollute like that'.

      Well, no. A tax would be a cost regardless and it would give them a sense of already haveing paid for it. Regulation on the other hand is appropriate because it says you can't do X. That regulation would or should apply evenly to every business and not just the current ones seeming to be the problem. Then anyone entering the game, whether related to the business of raising pigs, chickens, or making plastics, know that they can't dump their pollution. BTW, I don't have a problem with regulation as long as it effect everyone. In your pig scenario, it is actually illegal to dump the waste into a river untreated and if it is treated, then there isn't really a cost to you down stream. But for the sake of argument, I didn't bring that up.

      Your examples of things working aren't showing that we don't need things to be taxed/regulated. They're showing that taxation/regulation is working pretty darn well.

      Well, no. It shows nothing to taxes. Regulation works pretty well when it is universal. There are some areas overly regulated which cause problems in it's own right. But our original arguments weren't over regulation. It was over using taxes as a way to punish corporations and people who harm the environment and do so more then you do. I originally mistook that to mean the shit about Co2 and stuff, you could probable notice that from my example, but I still don't believe taxes do anything other then increase the hardship to the consumers and it is a waste of resources that we will never see a benefit from. The costs is much better offset by lower prices and freedoms you and I have because of it even when someone uses more then you.

    80. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You showed no such thing. When I lived a mile or so from a hog farm, I had to smell the waste. That's a cost I bore, whether I ate pork or not, and while pork may be fungible, food as a whole certainly is not. How much would I pay to not smell it? Not much, but I'm sure many people in the area would have. That's a cost we all bore that most people consuming those pigs did not.

      And that is a savings that you took advantage of by not paying more to live there. I love it when some developer turns farm land into a residential estate and then people like you want to be "in the country" then complain about all the smells the country has. Those smells lowered the costs of living there. It is a trade off you had to of accepted.

      You don't tax sale of pigs. You tax things that have value/cost (use of the commons, for the most part, whether it be air, water, roads, or anything else).

      It doesn't matter. It would be translated into a tax on the consumer and it would cost everyone. Besides, the "commons" aren't anyone's property. Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do with it. You either use it, or put up with someone else using it. It is just like a city park, you can't keep others from having a picnic there because you don't like what they are eating.

      Actual, this is Econ 101, and I didn't pervert it: the entire science of economics has, except they actually have demonstrated empirically that it's fairly accurate.

      Actually, you are by neglecting facets of it and twisting the presentation to meet your own agenda.

      Yeah, it's a shame we can't put a tax on imported goods with externalities. A tariff, for example. But apparently that's impossible, and totally not exactly what we are doing.

      Our economy would collapse if we did that. Besides, other differences like monetary values and labor costs would more then compesate for any tarrif we used base solely on the lines of equalizing externalities. If you ended us raiseing the cost of everything by $20, the import that is already selling for a massive markup can just swallow that and the situation of joba leaving is still there. Not to mention that we can't export now because everything it out of the reach of the cheaper markets that don't piss around with your ideas.

    81. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      And that is a savings that you took advantage of by not paying more to live there.

      Good point, but it seems like that would depend on constant externalities. Once I've bought my house, lower property values = lower property taxes will not offset the damage. Only if the pig farm is next door when I bought the place might this solution work.

      Maybe the risk of pig farm development was factored into the initial cost, but the risk also varies greatly over time.

      Besides, the "commons" aren't anyone's property. Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do with it.

      I'm one of the people who should get an equal share of them. In my case, I want to use them by breathing the air, but can't because it's all filled with smog.

      You either use it, or put up with someone else using it. It is just like a city park, you can't keep others from having a picnic there because you don't like what they are eating.

      The issue isn't what they eat. The issue is when other people start dumping their household trash there. Once it becomes a de facto landfill, my legitimate use of it becomes essentially impossible. (Legitimate = not making it unusable for other people; not 'taking more than my fair share', essentially.)

      An abuse of the commons that greatly harms its overall value. Solution: we don't let people dump their trash in the city park. An alternative would be to start charging for access and using that money to clean it up.

      That's how city commons work right now, to some extent. We tax all citizens and use the money to provide trash cans and people to empty them, and to clean the streets.

      Failure to regulate and dismissing complaints of a dirty city by 'Well, you should have used your share so other people couldn't pollute it' don't even make sense. Appropriate use of the commons doesn't stop other people from using it or abusing it. Seems like that's a good definition of appropriate use.

      Actually, you are by neglecting facets of it and twisting the presentation to meet your own agenda.

      I'm merely defending the premise of the Coase Theorem. I don't buy the simplistic form of the Coase Theorem, but you can't deny that it's economic orthodoxy.

      Our economy would collapse if we did that.

      Except we do do it to some extent. (Though I guess I can't argue that the economy isn't collapsing, but we've been doing it for a really long time.)

      Besides, other differences like monetary values and labor costs would more then compesate for any tarrif we used base solely on the lines of equalizing externalities.

      In that case, tariffs for equalising externalities wouldn't destroy the economy as they'd be trivial compared to the differences in labour costs, monetary values, etc.

      Not to mention that we can't export now because everything it out of the reach of the cheaper markets that don't piss around with your ideas.

      You keep making these dire predictions of what would happen if we followed my ideas, but we do tax and regulate pollution--there are controls on coal burning, ore smelting, fertiliser use, CFCs, pesticide use, and a world of other things, all for the correction of externalities. We do subsidise education, immunisation, lots of scientific research, and other. Home owner associations try to force us to keep our houses pretty.

      The US (and pretty much all the western world) uses 'my' ideas pervasively in our economy. It's been this way since long before I was born. I'm defending the status quo (though I think we should go farther, as Europe has. (England's economy is screwed, but the rest of Europe seems to be doing pretty well.))

    82. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      Well, first your assuming that the pig waste is being dumped and the chicken waste wouldn't be

      Sorry, should have specified, these are with costs internalised. If the chicken raising costs, including the costs of pollution, etc. are lower than that of pigs, then we should go with chickens unless pigs just taste or nourish (or however you decide the value of your food) that much better.

      I'm not arguing for chickens in the real world. I'm pulling random animals out of my hat for examples. Maybe we should eat more chicken and less pork.

      BTW, I don't have a problem with regulation as long as it effect everyone.

      And surely it should. I'm not saying only pig farmers should be prohibited from polluting. That was concrete example with made-up numbers to run some math demonstrating my position.

      Taxation and regulation have the same effect in the end, assuming the tax revenue is put to proper use. The only change is where the surplus is transferred to: the government or the supplier, and I happen to prefer to send it to the government. But I don't want to start up a sub-debate.

      It was over using taxes as a way to punish corporations and people who harm the environment and do so more then you do.

      Not to punish. To make them shoulder all the costs, so they're bore entirely by the supplier and--through higher prices--the consumer of said product. If I were punishing them I'd make them bear more than the cost.

      but I still don't believe taxes do anything other then increase the hardship to the consumers and it is a waste of resources that we will never see a benefit from.

      Ugh. I really don't want a debate on the taxes != regulation thing, but if you draw the two supply-and-demand graphs, one using taxation and one using regulation, you'll see the same resulting quantity supplied, the same price, the same waste (assuming the government can tax as efficiently and honestly as it can regulate), and the same consumer surplus. The only difference is the producer surplus. Regulation = taxation with subsidation to the supplier, pretty much.

      Wikipedia agrees that a pollution rights market--which is essentially regulation plus a market--are 'are not generally more efficient than Pigovian taxes' (which it turns out is the proper term for the taxes I'm advocating). Sadly, they don't discuss strict regulation.

      Figure 2 (and 3) show taxation. I'm pretty sure if we regulated to Q2, the only difference is that the 'Tax revenue' portion of the surplus instead is added to the producer surplus (or possibly split between supplier and producer?), whereas I believe it should be used to offset the cost of the pollution that still results (since Q2, and therefore the pollution caused in producing Q2, is still non-zero).

      The difference between regulation and taxation that I tend to gloss over, and related to one that I believe you pointed out early on, is that we can't really know the tax rate to set in order to achieve a given quantity supplied and the resulting pollution, whereas it's usually the resulting pollution level that we're trying to set.

      On the other hand, maybe it's the cost of the resulting pollution we're trying to set, in which case I think taxation would be better, knowledge-wise.

      If you support regulation, though, you're supporting limits on externalities, which is my main point. I think we're disagreeing more because I explain it poorly than because we actually disagree.

    83. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Good point, but it seems like that would depend on constant externalities. Once I've bought my house, lower property values = lower property taxes will not offset the damage. Only if the pig farm is next door when I bought the place might this solution work.

      Maybe the risk of pig farm development was factored into the initial cost, but the risk also varies greatly over time.

      Chances are that the pig farm has been there long before you bought the house. Although, even if it wasn't, you should have know of the possability because of the zoning. And if there is no zoning ordinaces, then that too is reflected in the prices of the house. Now, if you were taken by a builder or didn't do your own homework, that isn't the pig farmers problem.

      I'm one of the people who should get an equal share of them. In my case, I want to use them by breathing the air, but can't because it's all filled with smog.

      Actually, there isn't so much smog that the air is unbreathable. In fact, a lot of what we consider to be smog is actually naturally occurring. But as I said, your ability to use it and someone else using it is offset by lower prices from not having to use expensive smog filters and such. It is impossible and impractical to filter all of the smog out of the air.

      The issue isn't what they eat. The issue is when other people start dumping their household trash there. Once it becomes a de facto landfill, my legitimate use of it becomes essentially impossible. (Legitimate = not making it unusable for other people; not 'taking more than my fair share', essentially.)

      An abuse of the commons that greatly harms its overall value. Solution: we don't let people dump their trash in the city park. An alternative would be to start charging for access and using that money to clean it up.

      That's how city commons work right now, to some extent. We tax all citizens and use the money to provide trash cans and people to empty them, and to clean the streets.

      Failure to regulate and dismissing complaints of a dirty city by 'Well, you should have used your share so other people couldn't pollute it' don't even make sense. Appropriate use of the commons doesn't stop other people from using it or abusing it. Seems like that's a good definition of appropriate use.

      If you want to make the parks into a pristine place that only rich folks can afford go ahead. It would probably make it safer to keep the lower income trash out of them. There are already penalties for littering, perhaps enforcement of existing laws is more warranted then locking out a significant portion of the population.

      As for the cities having to clean up after themselves, well, that is just part if being a property owner. The city taxes people to operate, the city has to follow the same ordinances as we do and keep it somewhat clean. For the most part, trash and dirty streets or parks don't stop you from using them, it only effect your mental state while using them. IF the area is so bad that it is unbearable and is actually dangerous, I would start looking into officials asleep at the switch who aren't enforcing existing laws, improperly using funds they already have and so on. Creating a special tax to deal with it or putting a premium onto the parks will only exagerate an existing problem of inept public officials.

      I'm merely defending the premise of the Coase Theorem. I don't buy the simplistic form of the Coase Theorem, but you can't deny that it's economic orthodoxy.

      Either way, your assuming that you had value that was "yours" and that somehow someone is taking that value. Then you purpose fixing the implied situation by imposing a tax that will ultimately be paid by yourself in increased costs. Your not really any better off on the end because it doesn't matter if you pay $5 to the government or from purcha

    84. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing for chickens in the real world. I'm pulling random animals out of my hat for examples. Maybe we should eat more chicken and less pork.

      I know what you were doing. I was showing that it only works in abstract. The same things that can be done with Chicken manure (about 4 oz a day for an average bird) can be done with hogs or any other animal. Your point doesn't really work when going from animals to animals.

      And surely it should. I'm not saying only pig farmers should be prohibited from polluting. That was concrete example with made-up numbers to run some math demonstrating my position.

      Taxation and regulation have the same effect in the end, assuming the tax revenue is put to proper use. The only change is where the surplus is transferred to: the government or the supplier, and I happen to prefer to send it to the government. But I don't want to start up a sub-debate.

      I fail to see where taxation actually benefits anything on the subject. Your pointing to the surplus going to the government is more important to this then you know. You see, when taxes effect everyone, then manufacturers simply raise their prices and you pay it in the end. You might as well just pay the government and skip the lose step from administration duties. If the manufacturer is already making an average of a 23% profit and you take 5% of that in new taxes they simply raise their rates and continue making 23% profits. And since everyone is effected by it, there isn't a fear of competition getting an edge.

      Taxes in this case are waisted- utterly and completely waisted.

      Wikipedia agrees [wikipedia.org] that a pollution rights market--which is essentially regulation plus a market--are 'are not generally more efficient than Pigovian taxes' (which it turns out is the proper term for the taxes I'm advocating). Sadly, they don't discuss strict regulation.

      Another article by a hack with fake credentials attempting to push their point of view. Wikipedia isn't a trustworthy source. Just look at their bias, history and problems they have. Whoever wrote the article is probably ignoring the fact that all the taxes will be passed on to the consumer too.

      Figure 2 (and 3) [knowledgerush.com] show taxation. I'm pretty sure if we regulated to Q2, the only difference is that the 'Tax revenue' portion of the surplus instead is added to the producer surplus (or possibly split between supplier and producer?), whereas I believe it should be used to offset the cost of the pollution that still results (since Q2, and therefore the pollution caused in producing Q2, is still non-zero).

      Except that you aren't isolated from the tax. A business needs a certain amount of profit or it simply won't exist. The lower the percentage of profit, the less people will invest and so on. This means that all the taxes and costs get passed on to the consumer which is you.

      The difference between regulation and taxation that I tend to gloss over, and related to one that I believe you pointed out early on, is that we can't really know the tax rate to set in order to achieve a given quantity supplied and the resulting pollution, whereas it's usually the resulting pollution level that we're trying to set.

      True, then there is also the shaky grounds of defining pollution. Before long, sweat will be considered pollution.

      On the other hand, maybe it's the cost of the resulting pollution we're trying to set, in which case I think taxation would be better, knowledge-wise.

      Taxation simply won't work. If the tax is cheaper or the same costs as the alternatives, it gets passed on to the consumer with no change. The tax would effect the production of the alternatives too, increasing their costs as well. In the end, there is no signif

    85. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      Actually, there isn't so much smog that the air is unbreathable.

      In some places there is (or was--I many foreign cities would regulate when kids could go outside because the smog was so bad) because it's not taxed or regulated.

      Everything is expensive as hell in Germany (if you have ever traveled there you would know).

      I've been there twice, and when the dollar didn't completely suck, things were fine. When the dollar kind of sucked (a year and a half ago) things were still not ridiculous. With a weak dollar, it's bad for visiting Americans, but still all right for Europeans who don't have to deal with the exchange rate.

    86. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You mean in placed without regulation. We have air quality alert days in the US where children and the elderly are discouraged from going out but it is typically caused from natural sources. In other words, no amount of tax or regulation would fix anything.

      I've been there twice, and when the dollar didn't completely suck, things were fine. When the dollar kind of sucked (a year and a half ago) things were still not ridiculous. With a weak dollar, it's bad for visiting Americans, but still all right for Europeans who don't have to deal with the exchange rate.

      The dollar value hasn't fluctuated more then 40 cents peak over the last ten years. and that has been only for a few months. It is accurate to make the statement of 30% on whole. But even without the exchange rates, Germany is still outrageously expensive. It has 5 cities in the top 20 or the 100 most expensive cities to live in around the world. It usually breaks the top ten with all those except for other EU states have been climbing with their Eco evangelism. Of course New York City is around 3 on the list too. I went to Germany in 1986 and again in 1998 then in 2004. The fist time was for pleasure, the other two were business. I stayed mostly on a US military base and while on base was cheaper, it was very expensive when traveling out. On the two business trips, which also included a pass through London before Japan, Germany was by far the most expensive of the bunch. Even when paying for things on a credit card that was already loaded with the currency, the costs for most things like Dinner and a hotel room were higher then in the US. Transportation was outrageous and I couldn't rely on public transportation of the Share ride for most of it because I was on a time table while there. You must have done the Student travel thing and took advantage of the bunk flats and so on. But that isn't realistic when comparing the costs because you would have been sharing them.

  3. Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    They should use this with the new 40% efficient solar cells. Then they'll have 160% efficiency!

    1. Re:Wow! by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      The good point you make is: these percentages have no meaning. 50% quantum efficiency, 6.8 % power conversion efficiency (note, that 6.8 was only in the Science abstract, not to be found anywhere near the press material). A european effort's press release gives different data all together. 37.5% efficiency, measuring at 1700 suns? They concentrate the light source, but how many of these light sources and their concentrating lenses can you fit on a square meter?

      Like car mileage, there should be a unit based on standard lighting conditions, and then just give the kWh/square meter, plus the projected cost to produce one square meter.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
  4. from the FAQ by Singularitarian2048 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why did LSCs fail in the 1970's? Two reasons: the collected light was absorbed before it reached the edges of the glass or plastic plates, and the dyes were unstable.

    What about stability? We tested one of our devices and found that it was stable (to 92 percent of initial performance) for three months. This isn't good enough yet for products but we are confident that the technology developed for organic light emitting devices (OLEDs) in televisions will be portable to this application.

  5. ...They are Available in 'shingle' form when?? by Zymergy · · Score: 1

    So when and where can I get some of these cells in a user-installable 'shingle' form to re-roof my home's traditional shingle roof? (To be tied them into series/parallel grid cells with power controller and inverter, etc..)
    Not needing to track the sun makes them extremely suitable for my pitched roof facets... and possibly cost-effective too!

    1. Re:...They are Available in 'shingle' form when?? by RabidMoose · · Score: 1

      From the FAQ, they expect products based on this technology to start hitting shelves within three years. It seems that at present, their new cells start to break down pretty quickly (within a matter of months), so they need to get longevity hammered out before these things become commercially viable.

    2. Re:...They are Available in 'shingle' form when?? by KGIII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been watching those folks over at M.I.T. for a while now, of all the projects out there this looks to be the more promising in the near term.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  6. MS Boston by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0

    For a long time Microsoft didn't have a Boston engineering office, so many of the best and brightest from schools like BU, BC, and Harvard were passed over by MS recruiting. But now they have the chance to apply their brains to various research projects in MS. Naturally many would shy away from the company, as it is pretty much antithetical to the mindset of the typical Bostonian student.

    But these kids are smart and will no doubt go to where the money is, i.e. Microsoft.

    Anyway, the best first use of this new solar cell technology is in the solar racers that run every year. By using these as a proof of concept, they can then branch out into more lucrative MS Research programs. Can they create solar cars that absorb and retain more power using less surface area? Then we'll see how well these things work in real life.

    1. Re:MS Boston by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      What the heck are you talking about?

      MS pay is pennies compared to what an engineer can make marketing their own product. There is no company that will pay what an engineer can really make if they are actually inventing new useful products. Even if you paid an engineer 100k/yr that's paltry. My cousin just got her degree, got engineering certified, and started at 88k/yr for example.

    2. Re:MS Boston by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      It's a risk/reward tradeoff. Plus I'll take $100k a year thank you very much. I make much less right now doing system admin, tech support, and everything else technical under the sun for this small (60 employees) company.

    3. Re:MS Boston by WNight · · Score: 1

      As long as you're an employee, you're only worth as little as they can possibly pay you. Employees just aren't equated with the value of their production in the way that you don't thank your screwdriver for 25% of your wages, even if you open a lot of PC cases...

      Figure out how much time you save on regular duties (relative to a 'normal' person in that role) and the value of the special projects you've been able to complete for the company.

      Get recommendations from coworkers and bosses that reflects this.

      Shop around for a better job as a consultant, with wages based on your expected savings, using your new recommendations as proof.

  7. You need to increase them by three times that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Before the make more energy than it takes to build them.

    1. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 3, Insightful

      uhh... you just need to make their life time long enough to do that.

    2. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by Goaway · · Score: 1

      And where exactly are you getting the figures for the amount of energy needed to build them?

    3. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      Before the make more energy than it takes to build them.

      No, the idea is that you have to set the panels outside in the *sunlight*. You don't set them up next to you on the couch in your mom's basement.

    4. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      You mean I can't power my PC from the glow of my CRT with one of these solar panels???

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    5. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by Damvan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Every time there is a discussion about solar, someone comes on and begins to spout the usual nonsense that the panels never produce as much power as they use during production, a claim that has been disproven repeatedly. Given that this time it was an AC shows that the message might be getting through. Avg payback in energy for crystalline-silicon PV systems is 1-4 years. On a product that is warrantied for 25 years and expected to last well beyond 50 years. http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/24619.pdf

    6. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by NerveGas · · Score: 2, Funny

      The 1970's called, and said that it was time for you to move on. Solar technology certainly has.

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    7. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The 1970's called, and said that it was time for you to move on. Solar technology certainly has.

      Actually, crystalline PV panels would repay the energy cost of their investment in under seven years back then, too.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      More importantly, Silicon-based solar can contribute to solving the current issues (GHG and Energy Independence) to about the same extent that running cars of used food oil can contribute. There isn't enough Silicon production, nor enough food oil production to do more than scratch the surface.

      This somewhat nerdy fascination with silicon as the Holy Grail de jur, may be distracting us from real solutions.

      AIK

    9. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Before the make more energy than it takes to build them.

      "A 2004 study published by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) for multicrystalline solar panels with an assumed efficiency of 12% yielded a payback period of a bit over 3.5 years."

      Falcon

    10. Re:You need to increase them by three times that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So seeing as consumers pay around twenty years of electricity revenue for a solar panel do we assume they are 75% pure profit?

  8. Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by swb · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Then I'll be real interested.

    1. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where, and at what time of year? 50w/square meter (this is what you are quoting) is about 5% efficiency in a sunny spot during the summer, and something you could expect from current commercial cells.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What's your phone number? Current panels, like the panels on my roof, generate about 200w per square meter. That's roughly 20w per square foot. So 1,000 sq ft = 20kw.

    3. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by Damvan · · Score: 3, Informative

      BP sells 200 watt panels that are 14.85 sq ft each. 1000/15 = 66.67 x 200watt = 13.3kw

      Of course, that is under ideal generating circumstances.

      http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9019633&contentId=7036926

    4. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess your phone is off the hook. Been available at relatively reasonable consumer level prices for awhile.

    5. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by syukton · · Score: 1

      1000 square feet is about 93 square meters. Solar radiation is "approximately 1000 watts per square meter for a surface perpendicular to the Sun's rays at sea level on a clear day." (wikipedia)

      Now, at 1000 watts per square meter, 93 square meters is 93,000 watts. At 5.5% efficiency, that's a little over 5kw (5,115 watts). If this particular technology isn't that efficient yet, it probably will be soon, and you'll get that call.

      In the meantime though, what I'm really psyched about though is the solar thermal plant that Sandia has had in the works for a while. They're sporting over 31% efficiency, or a little less than six times the amount of power per 1000 square feet than you're interested in. This is a fairly recently article on their efforts.

      --
      Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    6. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      With generous assumptions, the absolute minimum efficiency you are claiming is 20%, which is quite impressive for home solar panels.

      But.. If you're claiming to have solved the parent's problem, which is more likely a 5kW roughly continuous (i.e. through-the-night) requirement in a location north of the tropic of cancer, at a time of year other than summer solstice, I'm becoming a bit suspicious.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by benhattman · · Score: 1

      Of course, that is under ideal generating circumstances.

      But what if we don't want to deploy our panels in outerspace between Mercury and the sun? What happens to your ideal circumstances then?

    8. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      The W/sq ft isn't what really interests me - it's the sheer economics. I'll probably prove my lack of caffeination here, so feel free to correct.

      BP makes a 200W solar panel, which you can buy for $1100

      200W = 0.2kW

      0.2kW * 10h/day * 30 days = 60kWh/month

      Looking at my electric bill, I pay about $0.10 per kWh.

      $0.10/kWh * 60kWh/month = $6/month saved by using the panel.

      $1100/$6/month = 183 months or about 15 years before I would break even.

      I fail to see why I would ever buy a panel at $5.5/W. It would have to be in the $2/W range before it would be economical for me to consider it. And that's assuming I get the full 200W out of the panel - not a guarantee in the NE of the US. It would probably be half that, averaged over the entire year. That's in the $1/W range.

      Are there any panels anywhere near this range? I can see $4/W, and rumors but no real purchasing info on $3/W panels. And, of course, this doesn't count the cost of install and wiring.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    9. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 1

      You are absolutely correct, which is why the printable solar panels is so important, and economies of scale are so important.

      Nanosolar is expecting (hoping) to produce them at ~$1/W. That's more important than the efficiency IMHO because there's more land than money. If given the option between a 10% efficient panel at $1/W or a 20% efficient panel at $3/W, then it makes more sense to buy the less efficient panel and use 2 times as much of it.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    10. Re:Call me when 1000 sq ft = 5kw by commanderfoxtrot · · Score: 1

      You're totally right.

      Why pay for e.g. a 70W solar panel when replacing a single incandescent bulb with a fluorescent will have the SAME effect?

      We could argue about duty cycles and manufacturing costs etc, but I think it's pretty pointless fussing about solar panels unless you've made sensible savings elsewhere already.

      --
      http://blog.grcm.net/
  9. None of it will matter by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 5, Funny

    once we reach peak solar in 2015.

    1. Re:None of it will matter by thermian · · Score: 0

      once we reach peak solar in 2015.

      [user was banned for this post] :)

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    2. Re:None of it will matter by stoolpigeon · · Score: 5, Funny

      It certainly wont matter to me - I'll be completely converted over to Vetrolium by then.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    3. Re:None of it will matter by Nick+Number · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's an ambitious plan. Have you already started decaying?

      --
      Promote proofreading. Don't mod up sloppy posts.
    4. Re:None of it will matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no

    5. Re:None of it will matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      once we reach peak solar in 2015.

      We already hit peak solar.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

    6. Re:None of it will matter by Emperor+Zombie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's people. Vetrolium is made out of people. They're making our fuel out of people. Next thing they'll be breeding us like cattle for fuel. You've gotta tell them. You've gotta tell them!

      --
      I'm so excited I just made water in my pantaloons!
    7. Re:None of it will matter by Herger · · Score: 1

      Vetrolium is made out of people??? That explains why they're calling it a "green" fuel.

    8. Re:None of it will matter by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 2, Funny

      [user was panned for this toast]

    9. Re:None of it will matter by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      According to the article you cite, we reached a (local) MINIMUM in the early 1990s and solar influx has been increasing, due to cleaner air. Ironically, cleaner air (particulates) probably increases global warming.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    10. Re:None of it will matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that won't matter, because by then we'll have Mr. Fusion.

  10. Factor by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 1

    > "...increased their performance results by a factor of 4."
    > "...increase the power obtained from existing solar cells by a factor of over 40"


    What a dirty trick to get us to RTFA. :-b

    FYI it's 40. Most impressive.

    --

    Operator, give me the number for 911!
    1. Re:Factor by cartman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The quoted factor of 40 improvement is a comparison against unconcentrated solar cells, which nobody uses. At present, all the solar generating plants in the world use mirrors to concentrate the sunlight on the solar cells, thereby greatly increasing performance.

      The "factor of 4" improvement refers to how much they've improved over their previous results; it does not refer to an improvement over currently-deployed technology.

      But the question is, how much does this technology improve performance relative to currently-deployed mirror concentration? And, what is the cost relative to currently-deployed mirror concentration?

    2. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I think it will probably be less efficient than mirror concentrators, but the operating/maintenance costs will be much lower since there are no moving parts (they don't track the sun).

      Of course, this all depends on the magical OLED technology that will make blue OLEDs last longer! :) They seem to think that will happen in the next 3 years.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:Factor by amorsen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At present, all the solar generating plants in the world use mirrors to concentrate the sunlight on the solar cells, thereby greatly increasing performance.

      Only the ones in areas with few clouds. Of course those places are best for solar anyway, but for the rest there's this new technology.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    4. Re:Factor by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      The quoted factor of 40 improvement is a comparison against unconcentrated solar cells, which nobody uses.

      Aren't all those photovoltaic panels I see on people's rooftops unconcentrated? Or is there some non-obvious concentration method that they use, that I'm not aware of?

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    5. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 4, Informative

      Right, most of the trucks driving around in a Solar Farm aren't replacing hydraulic pistons (which operate at one cycle per day).

      The trucks are cleaning the surfaces. This technology won't require cleaning because why?

      They have achieved 40x concentration; but there is no cell currently manufactured which is cost competitive at 40 suns. If you find one - there are hundreds of ways to concentrate light to 40x.

      The reason concentrators are 1000x is because that is precisely where III-V cells are most economic.

      Also no discussion of module efficiency. This puts the tech in a class with nanotech, which are equally quiet about their efficiency.

      Indeed the disturbingly inaccurate use of the term effeciency by the author suggests a weak grasp of the subject.

    6. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Informative

      In their defense, I don't think that they are claiming that this will replace the big solar farms. I think that they are envisioning this tech being used where windows currently are installed, or where solar was only worth installing with tracking collectors - so basically you get feasible solar installations where it wasn't feasible before.

      They did nothing to improve solar cells themselves, and thus the efficiency is not touched upon - these guys are just getting light to the edge of a piece of glass.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is a glut of new and exciting ways to bounce light. We have lenses and fresnel mirrors in conical or linear; funnel mirrors, holograms, diffraction grates, and concentric funnel mirrors. (I am the very picture of a modern...)

      I think we've safely reached the point where novel can no longer be consider a useful parameter.

      What is the cost - and what is the efficiency? longevity etc ...

      At some level, we find ourselves on a Titanic, and in need of a solution to a problem with significant time and resource constraints.

      I submit that this proposal, like so many in the same camp, does more to run out the clock, than it does to advance the ball.

      EPRI has reported that Heliostats with salt storage and steam power is the least expensive means to a post-oil world. Unless this technology can demonstrate some advantage relative to the gold standard; I think its noise.

      To your point, there is no real market for neighborhood solar; and there is no social benefit for wasting tax dollars on roof-toys - or anything other than the best-of-breed solutions.

      AIK

    8. Re:Factor by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      The trucks are cleaning the surfaces. This technology won't require cleaning because why?

      Windows are already being cleaned, that's what many of those people on scaffolding on the sides of skyscrapers are doing. So I don't this as being a problem.

      Falcon

    9. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I think that there is certainly a big part for large centralized plants - heliostats or otherwise... probably always the biggest part. However, I don't know why you are so quick to dismiss "neighborhood solar". The main objections to neighborhood solar are it's payoff time (15+ years, right?) and it's bulk.

      Collecting the light in a simple and non-mechanical way that also re-uses existing window space addressees both of those concerns. Get 15+ years to come down under 10 and you'll see a lot more solar (electric) panels. Heat/hot water is already pretty common, despite the bulk issue, because the cost works out.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    10. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      There is nothing "non-mechanical" about washing a solar device; regardless of its construction, it needs to be washed every week.

      No-one would buy Neighborhood solar if not for technology-specific tax credits. If those same tax credits were generic "renewable energy tax credits" - the market would favor small wind - which is still cheaper by far than Solar per watt.

      When the government picks winner - the market is the first loser, and I submit that the market is losing in part because of an artificial market for a dead-end solution (There's not enough time and resources for neighborhood solar to mitigate our Energy problems.)

      AIK

    11. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      The best Solar gets sun for half of a 24 day, so utilization is 50% at theoretical best. Coal and Nuclear are at ~95% for comparison.

      Window-mounted Solar only gets light for half the Solar day, so base utilization is 25% (less clouds and repair). Effectively doubling the price.

      Plus we aren't building new Large Buildings with window washing services at any great rate. Retrofit? not likely, give up a good view for an orange one? I'm skeptical.

      AIK

    12. Re:Factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The quoted factor of 40 improvement is a comparison against unconcentrated solar cells, which nobody uses.

      If you put solar panels on the roof of your own home, or if your town puts them on some municipal buildings, I doubt there will be any mirrors trained on your panels to concentrate the sunlight; I should know, having designed several systems for both kinds of buildings. I'd certainly jump for turning a (say) 24kW solar system covering the whole roof of some public facility into a 24*40=960kW system with no extra space required. These in-panel concentrators sound great to me with my solar background of is residential and municipal, not industrial.

      I certainly do grant you that skepticism is warranted, given the vaporware and lack of information caveats.

    13. Re:Factor by cgraves · · Score: 1

      unconcentrated solar cells, which nobody uses. At present, all the solar generating plants in the world use mirrors to concentrate the sunlight on the solar cells, thereby greatly increasing performance.

      Please cite your sources. Nobody uses unconcentrated cells? I've only heard of a few companies working on concentrated PV (SolFocus, Green & Gold Energy...), nevermind what is actually deployed! From a page about the first conference about concentrated photovoltaics, held in 2008: "CPV is as an industry on the brink of commercialisation."

      You might be thinking of concentrated solar thermal which concentrates sunlight with mirrors to heat up a working fluid and drive a heat engine to make electricity?

    14. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      There is nothing "non-mechanical" about washing a solar device; regardless of its construction, it needs to be washed every week.

      Don't people already wash their windows, though? Especially businesses.

      the market would favor small wind - which is still cheaper by far than Solar per watt.

      Where I was from, there was neighborhood opposition to windmill towers (though at least one person had them on his roof, which was an oddball flat one). Of course, IIRC the law in New Jersey does specify "renewable tax credits" instead of "solar". Solar hot water (and/or heat) was even more common than electric, and I suspect the return is even greater than for windmills.

      When the government picks winner - the market is the first loser

      I agree with this, but "lowest price" should not always be the goal. If the government could wean us off of oil, it would save quite a lot of heartache in the Middle East. Oil is clearly what the market would choose without government meddling.

      Also, I have no problem with the government spending some money on R&D alongside the private sector. The university system does not seem to hurt the US economy too much, and is largely funded by government.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    15. Re:Factor by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Window-mounted Solar only gets light for half the Solar day, so base utilization is 25% (less clouds and repair). Effectively doubling the price.

      Actually it depends on where the sun is relative to the panels, if a window is on the opposite side of a building, north or south, from the sun it won't generate much electricity. Those on the east side will only have good exposure in the morning whereas the west side will only have good exposure after noon. That's why PVs mounted on trackers in an open area generate more power than those that aren't.

      Falcon

    16. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      Best Case is 50% for east-west windows.
      Southern facing windows (in the Northern Hemi.) experience significant cosine losses all day long.

    17. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      Wrong - about Oil.
      If the market had to pay the full price in blood and treasure, medical bills for asthma, and the cost of relocating cities from rising oceans; then the market would not choose Oil. It is only when the government de-couples the price of oil from its cost that people choose Oil, Big cars, long commutes, and bog box stores (shopping commutes). In Europe, more of the real costs of Oil are integrated into the price, and people choose small shops close to home, luxury trains for their commutes, and get plenty of exercise. Been there done that.

      If the government encouraged equally for energy-avoided (which a fair price would do), the winning option is conservation.

      AIK

    18. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It is only when the government de-couples the price of oil from its cost that people choose Oil

      I think you have it backwards. The market "naturally" has no way to link the cost of oil to the effects of oil. The government has to perform this function. The government can do this through taxes... Gasoline/diesel are already taxed to fund roads, for instance. Perhaps all crude should be taxed to cover wars in the Middle East. Another tax could be assessed on crude to pay for environmental clean-up.

      So I think we agree for the most part - the government should tie the purchase price of an item to it's effects. But this is interference with the free market, not "letting the market decide".

      France does something else that I support - they make a manufacturer/distributor charge a disposal fee in the purchase price of an item. (It's actually an EU thing, but not required... don't mean to single out France.) I think that's a great idea, and if applied to all products you would see ridiculous over-packaging go away... like a tiny little USB stick packaged in a huge plastic package.

      But that's not free-market, either! :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    19. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      It is certainly true that the government is capable of doing both: ie - it can subsidize the extraction of oil from a chaotic middle east by engaging in very expensive wars, or it could tax oil to cover the costs of medical care for anthropogenic disease.

      In an anarchistic market; those who pollute could expect to have the means of pollution "disabled" by those who quite rightly object. That the government merely protects polluters by providing physical and legal security against a natural free-market reaction to deadly acts of pollution - is government intrusion into a free-market.

      I reject your premise.

      The government does not "need" to do the tying. The Market can do it just fine. (ie by suing for damages in a civil society, and by disabling the means in an uncivil society).

      It is appropriate for governments to organize this - by charging a tax for pollution, rather than managing a suit and settlement for same; or by criminally charging polluters rather than individuals exercising the right of self-defense.
      AIK

    20. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I don't think that civil suits could work at sorting out certain types of pollution. For instance, CO2 is hard to even pin down as a pollutant. It's even harder to prove any kind of damages due to CO2, and nearly impossible to pin it on one specific polluter.

      As a for-instance, let's say your house goes under water during a flood. Who, exactly, do you sue? I mean, science clearly indicates that flooding is more LIKELY due to global warming, but even the most ardent supporters of man-induced global warming would not pin a specific event to a global warming - let alone finger a specific polluter.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      Civil suits could works fine. For example, file a (double-action) class action pitting all Humans against all co2 polluters. figure the damages. Those Humans who burn less carbon than their personal share of damages are entitled to collect; the others have to pay.

      Your insistence of finding a solitary defendant is a canard in my opinion (as an artifact of US justice, not a derivative of natural law, or a limitation of governments generally.)

      Answer: you sue the co2 fund, increasing the damage figure, and affecting the payments for co2.

      For the government to prevent that suit is to interfere.

    22. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Sue all emitters of CO2? Are you kidding? Even suing just the producers would be impossible. There are too many people digging stuff out of the ground and burning it. Even China can't manage to get their illegal coal mines under control.

      Not to mention that suing the oil companies might not even be successful - after all, crude is used to make plastic and other useful things... not just burned.

      So of course now you need to go after refineries... or maybe makers of combustion equipment (engines and such) - which could of course be used to burn bio-diesel.

      Who exactly is culpable, then? Well, the users - which include everyone on the planet. Good luck getting a class action group together to sue themselves!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    23. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      A class action to sue themselves, is in a word, the definition of a government. That is how we, as a class, realize we need to set limits on our behavior.

      I think the RIAA is acting unfairly; but as an example of "suing a large and diffuse class" It has provided an example.

      This isn't a practical discussion, its a theory of government discussion. Conceptually, the free market, given the power to sue for damages, could set the price of oil such that wind power was cheaper.

      You're arguing particulars which I think means you've conceded the premise.

      AIK

    24. Re:Factor by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      A class action to sue themselves, is in a word, the definition of a government.

      I guess I don't understand. You are arguing that the free market would solve the problem of CO2 pollution, but then your proposed mechanism is "in a word, the definition of a government". In other words, I think we agree that you need government to solve a problem like this?

      I think the RIAA is acting unfairly; but as an example of "suing a large and diffuse class" It has provided an example.

      They've filed thousands of individual lawsuits against a class of millions. Frankly, their action is insignificant - and the effect on filesharing is pretty minimal. I mean, all this effort and yet I found this page! A web page, found with a Google search, containing the entire Metallica Black album!

      Also, even if the RIAA were successful, I don't think that it would be a good example. There would be no "free market" for IP if it weren't for the government. It's an artificial commodity. Oil would be valuable with or without a government.

      You're arguing particulars which I think means you've conceded the premise.

      But then by definition you are also arguing particulars - does that mean that you've conceded the premise?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    25. Re:Factor by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      Touche'

      Yes, I am arguing that that a theoretical free and moral market could exist in which pollution was mitigated by one of two options in which the government did not actively choose winners or take sides:
      1. Double class action suit.
      2. Nondeadly acts of self-preservation if suits were not permitted.

      The RIAA is forced to go after the poorest individuals, A pollution suit would start with much much bigger fish.

      There would be no clean-hands in such a case, only slightly soiled vs. pig-sty.

      My proof is that in the US, the government is actively interfering in the free market by preventing injured parties from suing polluters - including CO2. And that if it did not intervene, and permitted a jury to decide the culpability of polluters, then we'd see what the market preferred to use for energy.

      There is a case - you know in Alaska which may change this - we'll see.

  11. And When Is It Available Really? by EdIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have heard about a ton of solar technologies in the last 24 months that are supposed to revolutionize the way we get energy.

    However, I don't see a product.

    This is an uber product. The ability to generate electricity up to 40 times the amount of existing solar while allowing as low as 10% of the light to enter?

    Commercial Buildings? This technology is off the hook. It not only generates electricity, it SAVES electricity being used to cool the building.

    I am sure this would be used on new and existing residential buildings as well. The ability to create skylights while providing power?

    I hope this one actually makes it to the market within 5 years.

    1. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Hopefully one of these many solar power improvements will make it to market some time before fusion power.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      I think it's fair to say that if it's coming out of a university lab, it's not a "product" (uber or otherwise) yet. It's front-line science, not the new iPod With Bacon.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by maxume · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is pretty likely there will be an inflection point. At the moment, my take is that the subsidized pay off period is still pushing 20 years, so solar is pretty much only any good if you are rich and don't like it when your power goes away, or if you want to live really far from the grid. When the unsubsidized payback hits 10 years, Joe-dumbass is going to be screwing up an installation on his garage, driving the payback time even lower.

      Up until the inflection point, nothing will seem to make a difference. Afterwords, it will be like "what took so long and where did all those things come from".

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I meant to say the potential to become an uber product. Should of previewed that a little bit more.

      That's why ./ should allow edits in the future. You would be able to see what posts were edited and how of course. Otherwise I just have to keep being a moron who clicks submit too fast.

    5. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by Damvan · · Score: 1

      You might want to crunch your numbers again. I am not going to bore you with all the exact numbers, but I installed my 3.2 kw system in 2004, and my calculated payback based on the numbers obtained with 4 years of actual use will be a little over 8 years. It was a subsidized installation though, with rebates paying more than half the cost. But the costs of the equipment are lower now, and there are higher rebates available than what was available 4 years ago. Granted we aren't reaching your unsubsidized 10 year payback quite yet, but we have well passed your subsidized 20 year payback estimate.

    6. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      This is an uber product. The ability to generate electricity up to 40 times the amount of existing solar while allowing as low as 10% of the light to enter?

      Given that current solar cells are 20-40% efficient, I'm guessing the "40x" statistic is, um, bullshit.

      I also question the "we don't have to track the sun" part. If you want maximum efficiency, you do have to track it. At an oblique angle, you have less energy hitting the surface, and hence less power generated.

    7. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by farnsaw · · Score: 1

      The inflection point against grid electricity is still years off, however, if you start to compare it to oil / fuel prices you start to see a different scenario. As fuel prices continue to increase and more and more vehicles incorporate electrical power, I suspect we will see Solar Voltaic cells start start to be incorporated into these vehicles as they would extend the range as well as giving "free" fuel to these vehicles. For example, how would you like to come back from vacation to a fully charged electric / hybrid car just because you parked in the open air lot while you were gone for two weeks?

      On this note, I can suddenly see the top floor of parking garages becoming MUCH more popular and the first to fill up rather than the last. In fact, and I actually hesitated to state this in case it gives someone ideas (on the other had this is a great place to publish it as it will prevent a patent in the future), I can see parking garages charging a premium for the open top floor as electic / hybrid vehicles with solar panels become popular.

      --
      "Computer Scientists can count to 1024 on their fingers" (non-mutant, non-mutilatated, human computer scientists)
    8. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by maxume · · Score: 1

      If a system can actually pay for itself in 10 years, I would think that a lot of people would pay for them just for the lowered dependence on the grid. If it is less than 10 years, I would think that it would be a great way to offset growing demand (especially peak summer loads...).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:And When Is It Available Really? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      my take is that the subsidized pay off period is still pushing 20 years, so solar is pretty much only any good if you are rich

      The payback, ROI, period depends on the system and where it's located. Some have payback periods of about 7 years whereas other are closer to 20. In virtually every case though it is shorter than the warranty on the components, except batteries. Now that's where some mess up, the payback period. Some sellers say it is short and some buyers want it short but those who get it realize it's a long term investment.

      Falcon

  12. Pure dark by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Funny

    If solar cell efficiency actually increased a mere 1% for each story slashdot has posted regarding solar cell improvement, then panels would be generating electricity in complete darkness by now.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Pure dark by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but you see, Slashdotters are smart, we don't leave our stuff in the open to obey the laws of physics, we put all our stuff in boxes!

    2. Re:Pure dark by farnsaw · · Score: 1

      Actually, in pure dark, solar cells are 100% efficient today... of course so is my cat, this table I'm working on, and the sunflower seeds in my stomach. Zero energy shining on them produces zero energy out... 100% efficient.

      --
      "Computer Scientists can count to 1024 on their fingers" (non-mutant, non-mutilatated, human computer scientists)
    3. Re:Pure dark by mrflash818 · · Score: 0

      too true!

      --
      Uh, Linux geek since 1999.
  13. "Window" is the focus, not just existing by Necreia · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For those that didn't RTFA (aka, almost everyone)

    The focus of the article is on how this could work in place of a regular window// not just as something to amplify solar cells. Since it can push the light to the edges, only the rim has to be fitted with collectors.

    Pretty cool

    1. Re:"Window" is the focus, not just existing by Dripdry · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So this would imply a new way to recharge an electric car during long drives? Just install them in each window and let the car recharge on the go. The alternator of the future!

      --
      -
    2. Re:"Window" is the focus, not just existing by FrameRotBlues · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, you win the prize of being right. It's amazing how people can't interpret what they read.

      It's as if they see some numerical digit and say, "OMG PONIEZ!!!!1!eleventy EVERYTHINGZ GRATE!"

    3. Re:"Window" is the focus, not just existing by kmac06 · · Score: 1

      That's just one possible use. Another huge advantage is that it focuses the light, so that a 1 square meter of light can be coated with this cheap stuff, and then it focuses the light to a 1 square cm of silicon or whatever, which is expensive.

  14. 4 vs 40. by BigGar' · · Score: 3, Informative

    FYi, its 40 time better than standard solar cells and 4 times better than their previous results.

    The reference from the FAQ
    1. Currie, M. J., Mapel, J. K., Heidel, T. D., Goffri, S. & Baldo, M. A. High-efficiency Organic Solar Concentrators for Photovoltaics. Science. In Press.

    --


    Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
    1. Re:4 vs 40. by FrankSchwab · · Score: 1

      OK, so a standard solar cell is 15% efficient. So this one is (.15*40) = 600% efficient? And their previous results were 1/4 of that, or 150% efficient? Dayyyumm!

      --
      And the worms ate into his brain.
    2. Re:4 vs 40. by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, yes... but they are collecting more sunlight for each cell, not making the cells more efficient :)

      The concept is not new, but apparently the dies are better and more stable now.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:4 vs 40. by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Maybe in terms of how many actual solar cells are used then yes. The greater then 100% efficiency comes from the use of collectors. The cells themselves are not greater then 100$ efficient. It's just that the collectors amplify the light getting to them allowing that many times greater output.

    4. Re:4 vs 40. by FrameRotBlues · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's actually 40 times better light transmission for solar cells placed at the edge of a sheet of glass. As in, 1/2" wide solar cells placed along the circumference of a 1/2" thick pane of glass, compared to no dyes at all. And this result transmits 4 times more light than previous dyes.

      Sorry to pick your post to rag on, but literally hundreds of people had a hard time interpreting the article.

    5. Re:4 vs 40. by BigGar' · · Score: 1

      I'm a tad late returning to this but,
      Your assessment is correct, I could have been more accurate in my original post. I understood what I was trying to say, but should have read what I was saying closer. I appreciate the clarification.

      --


      Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
  15. Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the 1970s, similar solar concentrators were developed by impregnating dyes in plastic.

    I'd hate to meet the man who did this to Mr.Plastic's wife. What kinda sicko fscks plastic? ... oh wait ...

  16. Solar power by elemnt14 · · Score: 1

    I am waiting for the day when the general consumer can buy a bunch these panels and use them efficiently. Also I think that when something like this picks up, it should become a standard for home builders. With the markets the way they are noways, getting a little energy bill break wouldn't be half bad...

    1. Re:Solar power by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      I am waiting for the day when the general consumer can buy a bunch these panels and use them efficiently. Also I think that when something like this picks up, it should become a standard for home builders. With the markets the way they are noways, getting a little energy bill break wouldn't be half bad...

      The easiest, cheapest, and fastest way to reduce the energy bill is by taking efficiency measures. Replace 75 watt incandescent bulbs with 12 or 15 watt CFLs, And when prices come down and they get better replacing those with LED lights, LEDs only use 10% of the energy incandescents do. The problems, 2, with LEDs are the cost of them and so far they are good only for spot lighting. They're bad for area lighting. Replace refrigerator freezer combos that have the freezer part on top and the compressor on bottom with one where the freezer is on bottom and compressor on top. Replace electric stove tops with inductive stovetops. Replace single paned windows with double or triple paned energy efficient windows. And improve the building's insulation, R value.

      Falcon

  17. I gotta ask. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are the /. dice ads fucking up FF3 for anyone else besides me?

    1. Re:I gotta ask. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no dice for me.

    2. Re:I gotta ask. by Surt · · Score: 1

      Who still allows ads on the internet?

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  18. For those too lazy to RTFA by halsver · · Score: 1

    These nifty scientists have come up with a filter (which is made out of dye on glass) which concentrates and filters wavelengths of light. By concentrating the specific wavelengths they can increase efficiency two ways:
    1) Concentrated light is better for solar cells (as in the mirrors solar plants use today)
    2) Photovoltaic cells can apparently be tuned to work better for different wavelengths of light.

    There are a lot of different numbers thrown around in the article, the simplest is that placing this filters on existing solar panels could increase their efficiency by 50%. By building specialized solar panels, using multiple filters, a much greater (4x? 40x?) efficiency gain can be achieved.

    --
    Roughly half my comments are never submitted. You may be reading the better half...
  19. Ah... the poor monkeys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So close to Type II, yet so far. - Kardashev

  20. If you don't want to RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No mention of a factor of 4.

    Claims that /the panel itself will generate 40X/ because the light collecting window is 40X the size of the solar panel.

    Basically they have invented a window that can divert a certain section of the spectrum 90 degrees to the the edge of the glass, which is the only place they need to put solar cells.

    Sounds like a great idea. Not quite what the headline claimed.

  21. 40 x 15% == 600% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The solar cells currently on my roof have an efficiency of 15% (manufacturer claim). So if these are 40 times better, then I'll be able to get 600% efficiency. Perhaps my neighbours will complain that I'm sucking away the light that should have fallen onto their houses leaving them in darkness?

  22. If you want a more detailed description by edwebdev · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is a link to the actual paper published by the MIT team:
    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/321/5886/226

  23. Bullshit numbers, no facts to be found... by evilviper · · Score: 0, Redundant

    increases the electrical power obtained from each solar cell "by a factor of over 40,"

    Let's see... Cheap residential roof-top PV panels are about 12% efficient. 12*40 would give us... 500% efficient solar panels!

    High-end solar panels used by satellites are nearly 40% efficient. I'm sure NASA would love to get their hands on 1,600% efficient solar panels, too.

    Next time, wait until there's a REAL article on the tech, not a completely information-free and bullshit press release.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    1. Re:Bullshit numbers, no facts to be found... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Next time, wait until there's a REAL article on the tech, not a completely information-free and bullshit press release.

      It isn't information-free, you just can't read.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    2. Re:Bullshit numbers, no facts to be found... by edwebdev · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Go to science.com and read the actual research paper from the MIT team before blasting their work.

    3. Re:Bullshit numbers, no facts to be found... by Bryansix · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not quite there bud. It produces 40 times the amount of power for the amount of solar cells but the collection area is MUCH larger. The concentration of light is what makes it produce 40 times more power.

    4. Re:Bullshit numbers, no facts to be found... by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      You even quoted the statement so I'm not sure how you could have confused the term "power" with the term "efficiency", but there it is.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    5. Re:Bullshit numbers, no facts to be found... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Not percentage, power.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  24. Are they cheap enought to wire up to my house? by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    And at least hit break even in, say, 5 years (with the interest on the loan factored in)?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  25. Expensive stuff by jmichaelg · · Score: 2, Informative

    This article says the window treatment for the dye alone would run around $300-$400 per square meter of glass. The solar cells would cost extra. The process requires vapor deposition which adds to the cost and it alters the light color passing through the window which may or may not be acceptable to the end user. And then there's this:

    Oddly enough, a number of reports appearing today (for example, in the Associated Press) suggested that Covalent's concentrators would be of use in actual windows, but cofounder John Mapel made no mention of that possibility when we talked last week. That's no great surprise -- it would be difficult to get high-intensity light into vertically-positioned windows, much less windows placed on the wrong side of a building.

    As a number of other posters have pointed out - wait for an actual product to see what it actually is and what it's capable of.

    1. Re:Expensive stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, uhm, even if you don't want to read it, the article has some pretty pictures.

      http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/solar-nsf-enlarged.html

      (should explain things to you)

      actually, here.

      Alternatively, the partially transmissive concentrator can function as a window.

      You see, you don't actually have to put it in the vertical position for it to work. Isn't that amazing and innovative?

      Or maybe you just shut up and let the smart people work, dumbass.

    2. Re:Expensive stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wait for an actual product to see what it actually is and what it's capable of

      Yes. Maybe you should.

      How much will it cost again?

  26. FRUstRAtioN... by religious+freak · · Score: 1

    I love these types of breakthroughs, but when is something actually going to happen in the real world with this stuff?!

    Off oil as quick as possible!

    --
    If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    1. Re:FRUstRAtioN... by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      The sun will start getting brighter about a billion years from now.

    2. Re:FRUstRAtioN... by religious+freak · · Score: 1

      HAHA, dunno if I can wait that long!

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
  27. So, what, Mightyware has a big fusion breakthrough by tjstork · · Score: 1

    I mean, come, on, if some schmoo has a vapo solar panel and can get himself slashdotted, maybe I ought to start selling fusion reactors, ready for delivery, "real soon now", just to get the clicks!

    --
    This is my sig.
  28. Mirrors by Lord+Lode · · Score: 1

    Why not use mirrors, or lenses, to focus the light? Simple, but effective.

    1. Re:Mirrors by halsver · · Score: 1

      Mirrors are used, but they come with a high upkeep cost. They need to be polished and maintained and repositioned throughout the day to maximize efficiency.

      --
      Roughly half my comments are never submitted. You may be reading the better half...
    2. Re:Mirrors by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      They need to be polished and maintained and repositioned throughout the day to maximize efficiency.

      The kind of work Americans won't do!

    3. Re:Mirrors by Damvan · · Score: 1

      The efficiency of present PV panels drops significantly as temperature rises. Unless you can deal with those higher temperatures, concentrating the light won't give you much gain. For example, I notice up to a 10% drop in total production on days that are 100+ degrees F vs days that are 80 or so degrees F given the same length of day.

    4. Re:Mirrors by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, if Mexicans become too expensive, you can always use robots...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  29. Shhhh! by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    Don't spread the word, or GM/Exxon/etc will buy all the patents again like how flywheel cars keep disappearing.

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:Shhhh! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's the patents that keep flywheels from becoming commercially viable. Certianly not the myriad of issue that they have.
      Starting with ahve a huge spinning object flying during an Auto crash.

      Patents aren't magic you know. Someone else could release the plans, especially in the era if World Wide information distribution.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Shhhh! by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Don't spread the word, or GM/Exxon/etc will buy all the patents again like how flywheel cars keep disappearing."

      Which patents are those? After all, patents are public record, so we should have a rogues gallery of suppressed inventions to look over.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  30. Next time read the article by JoeBuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The method collects sunlight from a larger area and concentrates it on solar cells in a smaller area, meaning you can get more power with fewer solar cells. So the way to get "500% efficient" solar panels would be to extract, say, 20% of the sun's energy hitting an area, with only 4% of that area covered by actual solar cells, with concentrators to collect the sunlight from a larger area and directing it to the cells.

  31. Nice work but does not address the key issue by anon37 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This won't work for the same reason that interior paint won't last on the outside of your house. Interior paints use organic dyes, just like this MIT concentrator. To the great frustration of the paint industry, organic dyes just do not last in sunlight: the molecules breakdown.

    Similar solar concentrator concepts have been looked for three decades (look up, for example, Prof. Reisfeld's work at Hebrew University) and have not yet made it out of the lab.

    1. Re:Nice work but does not address the key issue by geekoid · · Score: 1

      True, but there have been many improvements since then, and it's nice to ahve more people looking at the same problem, especially if it's to solve it for different reasons.

      I certianly would go running out and investing my meager amount of money into it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Nice work but does not address the key issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I certianly would go running out and investing my meager amount of money into it.

      No wonder you have a meager amount of money!

    3. Re:Nice work but does not address the key issue by gujo-odori · · Score: 1

      Of course, if you actually RTFA, you find that their current prototype still had 92% of initial efficiency after three months of exposure. That's pretty good, much better than anything done so far in that area, but they say themselves that that isn't good enough. Yet. They are confident they can improve that to the point of being commercially viable and expect a marketable product in three years.

      Of course, they could encounter an insurmountable obstacle during those three years, but they're confident enough in this that they're spinning off a company to make it. From the claims in TFA, it sounds like they've really got something there. This *is* a major breakthrough, and they believe it will be a marketable one.

    4. Re:Nice work but does not address the key issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how long will these last? 2 years? 20 years? 50 years? And at what efficiency breakdown?

      Yeah. You have zero clue. You're comment is 100% worthless. How you got marked to insightful is beyond me.

  32. RTFA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The researchers didn't do a thing to improve solar cells; they designed what will eventually be a better solar concentrator. The problem with concentrators is that the photovoltaics degrade faster when exposed to more intense light... this is not the "breakthrough" we've been waiting for folks.

  33. Iron Man has a solar fusion reactor in his heart by peter303 · · Score: 1

    He graduated from MIT too!

  34. Idea: why not just have sky based solar cells? by Dex5791 · · Score: 1

    We should just have gigantic floating platforms with solar cells spread over them at sit just above clouds. They could be tethered in place by huge power cables and run by automated systems. It would block out some Sun, but wouldn't that cut down on the solar rays heating up the atmosphere?

    1. Re:Idea: why not just have sky based solar cells? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An airplane flying overhead doesn't cast a noticeable shadow, neither would a floating solar platform (especially at that height). However, keeping it floating indefinitely would be a serious problem. The power cable tethers would get struck by lightning and they'd also have to discharge static. If this platform is miles overhead you'd need miles of power cable, which would be very heavy.

      Wouldn't it be easier to build a solar satellite in a geosynchronous orbit, and beam energy to earth?

  35. What are we up to now? by heroine · · Score: 2

    With all the solar cell breakthroughs since 2005, we should be up to 10,000% efficiency by now.

    1. Re:What are we up to now? by Trogre · · Score: 1

      That's right. These solar panels emit sunlight. And still have enough left over to power your hummer.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    2. Re:What are we up to now? by farnsaw · · Score: 1

      Remember that solar cell run along at about 15% efficiency. Therefore a 40% increase means that it will bump up to something like 20%. Also, many of these improvements are not cumulative as they cannot be used together or have not been tested together so we don't know. Then we have to find some way of keeping them clean as even a little dirt will reduce the output of solar cells a great deal. Also, strangely, solar cells work most efficiently when they are cool... a bit contradictory to their optimal sun environment. This is one of the reasons you don't see massive solar reflective farms pointing at Solar Voltaic cells, but at a reservoir which is heated to gaseous state (steam in the case of water, but they often use something more dense than water nowadays) with passive / reflected solar power and used to turn turbines.

      --
      "Computer Scientists can count to 1024 on their fingers" (non-mutant, non-mutilatated, human computer scientists)
    3. Re:What are we up to now? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Then we have to find some way of keeping them clean as even a little dirt will reduce the output of solar cells a great deal.

      Shade significantly impacts single crystal PVs but not amorphous panels.

      Falcon

  36. "Power conversion efficiencies as high as 6.8%" by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

    We report single- and tandem-waveguide organic solar concentrators with quantum efficiencies exceeding 50% and projected power conversion efficiencies as high as 6.8%.

    So when photovoltaics say they're 35% efficient, does that mean power conversion efficiency? Or is it this quantum efficiency, which seems somehow less relevant than, you know, the amount of power that the cell can produce?

    1. Re:"Power conversion efficiencies as high as 6.8%" by cyberseptic · · Score: 1

      You hit the nail on the head, Spork. When someone says that a photovoltaic is, say, 20% efficient (take for example this quote from wikipedia: "Solar cell energy conversion efficiencies for commercially available multicrystalline Si solar cells are around 14-19%"), this figure is a **power conversion efficiency**. i.e. - 5W solar power converted to 1W useful electrical power gives an efficiency of 20%. Therefore, the projected power conversion efficiency of the proposed concentrator/PV system is actually quite low, 6.8%. Solar cells had greater efficiency then this in the 1980s. Whatever the hype, one knows that this system can't possibly be the magic it's creators say it is for the simple fact that the dye-conversion/waveguide process is not optically 100% efficient. Therefore you could put the best solar cells in the world around the periphery of these concentrators and the combined system will have a lower efficiency than if you simply covered the area in solar cells in the first place. Whether this system is economically exciting is another matter...but I wouldn't buy up all of Covalent Solar's stock just yet. ;)

    2. Re:"Power conversion efficiencies as high as 6.8%" by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      you could put the best solar cells in the world around the periphery of these concentrators and the combined system will have a lower efficiency than if you simply covered the area in solar cells in the first place.

      Thing is is with these coatings sunlight is still able to pass through the window but with PV panels all the light gets blocked. In which case you'd have to provide other lighting.

      Falcon

    3. Re:"Power conversion efficiencies as high as 6.8%" by cyberseptic · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily so. With materials such as CIGS (copper indium gallium selenide) and others, you can "tune" which wavelengths you actually absorb by varying the ratios of the constituent elements. It is possible to deposit such an absorber on a transparent conducting substrate to create a photovoltaic material that is transparent over a range of wavelengths. XsunX, for example, is a company that markets this technology currently. They make their "solar cell windows" from amorphous silicon. Link: http://www.xsunx.com/

  37. good point by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

    That sure would be a downer if these solar concentrators were destroyed by solar radiation. Watch out if the warranty is only 90 days!

  38. Given all the research, there ... by SubComdTaco · · Score: 1

    is bound to be some combination that is going to go into production. People are looking at this from all angles and improving on previous research, like this dye concentrator effect from 20(+) years ago. I for one am not tried of reading about new solar innovations, we have got to free ourselves from oil.

    1. Re:Given all the research, there ... by EdIII · · Score: 1

      I for one am not tried of reading about new solar innovations, we have got to free ourselves from oil.

      I am not tired of hearing about it. I am TIRED of it never leaving the lab. I am tired of a lackluster-lipservice-bullshit attitude in government from local municipalities to federal about properly funding the reasearch and subsidizing the resultant industry and production of products.

      Why did the Hummer have a tax credit SO much higher than the Toyota Prius?

      No my friend, I am NOT tired about hearing about Solar Technology. I am just incredibly disappointed that there is no city deciding to push the deployment of this tech HARD on all of its buildings. I am disappointed that there is not a Senator Dipshit pushing some bill through to provide funding and mandating a clear green policy on all federal buildings to include technology like this.

      Maybe I am wrong, but all I seem to do is hear about it, but can never crack open my wallet to buy it. Well I heard constantly growing up how you could get replicated Mac N' Cheese out of a StarFleet replicator, but have yet to see one for sale at Costco.

      So don't get me wrong I am very enthusiastic about Solar reducing our energy needs substantially at the source, it's just that for now there is no difference between me reading about processor core technology in my Star Trek guide and hearing about Solar technology on Slashdot. Both are equally far away from becoming real anytime soon.

      Maybe I am just having a bad day and I am just a bit too dark and cynical. Who knows it's my time of the month I guess.

    2. Re:Given all the research, there ... by SubComdTaco · · Score: 1

      I am not tired of hearing about it. I am TIRED of it never leaving the lab. I am tired of a lackluster-lipservice-bullshit attitude in government from local municipalities to federal about properly funding the reasearch and subsidizing the resultant industry and production of products.

      I agree! What do you think of having each posting come with a disclaimer stating whether the technology is available to be purchased or not?

    3. Re:Given all the research, there ... by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 1

      Well said! Though I will say it's getting there, little by little. I managed through a blackout a couple weeks back on solar power for a few small important devices like my cellphone. It's not all it could be, but that's more than I could have done ten years ago for the price.

      --
      Everything will be taken away from you.
    4. Re:Given all the research, there ... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      I am not tired of hearing about it. I am TIRED of it never leaving the lab. I am tired of a lackluster-lipservice-bullshit attitude in government from local municipalities to federal about properly funding the reasearch and subsidizing the resultant industry and production of products.

      Have you heard of T Boone Pickets', the wealthy oil man, idea to free the US from foreign oil? He wants to create at least 20% of the USA's electricity from wind, build wind farms from Canada to Mexico through the middle of the country. Then the natural gas, LNG, used in some power plants can be used as fuel for vehicles instead. CNN has been going on about it.

      Falcon

  39. Meanwhile passive solar continues worldwide by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 4, Informative

    While it's great that we have an improved solar cell film, the reality is that, for the most part, the most efficient method used on a practical worldwide scale involves passive solar heating, especially for providing heating and hot water.

    Part of the problem is that the manufacturing process - such as that used by Sony in cranking out OLEDs (which they build at the same plant as their photovoltaic solar cells) - causes a fair bit of pollution, both thru film extrusion, bonding, and the doping process.

    By 2020 we may see some useful scaled implementation of photovoltaics, but it's still projected that the vast and overwhelming majority of growth in solar will be it's use in passive solar heating (and cooling, using heat exchangers) and in passive solar water heaters, as both such uses have little in the way of pollution in the manufacturing process and have an easier permitting process for factories, installation, and residential and commercial use, and easier to develop tax incentives for on the local and national scales worldwide.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Meanwhile passive solar continues worldwide by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The problem with PV solar as compared to thermal solar is that in PV you have potentially very good efficiencies but you have poor use of spectrum. A black collector will absorb most everything.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Meanwhile passive solar continues worldwide by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Depends on spectrum availability, concentration techniques, and solar incidence level.

      In equatorial regions with high smog levels you may want to use a painted or differently coated reflector and/or concentrator. You can also use vacuum sealed tubes with concentrators to provide liquid transfer exchange.

      Cost factors for different materials and pollution/recovery impacts for the coatings and films have to be considered as well.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  40. Like those glowing clipboards by SiliconEntity · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of those plastic, colored transparent clipboards you used to see - they would trap the light internally and it looked like they were glowing around the edges. Sounds like the same technology, ramped up. So if it never pans out for solar cells, these guys could still be positioned to make a killing in the novelty clipboard market! Where do I invest?

  41. Research Excitement != Practical Advance by cyberseptic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Solar cells undergo degradation with light exposure. The degradation is usually proportional to the number of photons incident on the cell. Does this method *shorten* the effective lifetimes of existing solar cells by a factor of 40? Are there cells that exist that this solution is practical for? Do the gains outweigh the costs if I use this system to "upgrade" my solar cell array and end up slashing the array's lifetime by a factor of 40?

    1. Re:Research Excitement != Practical Advance by mrfunnypants · · Score: 1

      on top of that the fluorophores used in this paper are definitely undergoing photobleaching, defined below:

      http://everything2.com/e2node/photobleaching

      How practical is a solar cell that is continuously losing it's efficiency?

      --
      "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" -Confucius
  42. In this house we obey the laws of thermodyanamics. by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

    So let me see, current cells have 15% efficiency or so , the best stuff ( I.e GaAs ) can reach 30% - 40% , and this tech will increase output power by more than an order of magnitude, meaning they should output at least 150% of the energy they receive?

    If the numbers are to add up then what they are doing is a concentrating solar power plant and it should be compared to the values for such instalations. Heck, using their way to do the counting I could design a power plant which outputs 100 times the power of existing state of the art solar cells, by using a 100m array of mirrors and a stirling engine. In fact, this has been done.

    For proper comparison they should compare their technology with other concentrating solar technologies, in which case I'm suspecting they get their ass kicked by solar thermal installations that have superior conversion efficiencies.

  43. basic math by SuperBanana · · Score: 1

    This is an uber product. The ability to generate electricity up to 40 times the amount of existing solar while allowing as low as 10% of the light to enter?

    It's uber bullshit, given that commercially available panels are anywhere from 10-20% efficient; that efficiency calculation is based upon the maximum amount of solar radiation hitting a certain area of the earth, and you can't change it. The maximum improvement would therefore be 5-10x.

    Also- as other posters have pointed out, there have been several advancements in solar panel technology ranging from efficiency improvements to cheaper production methods (aka the whole "printable" segment.) Not a single bit of it has yet to enter the market.

    It's probably some combination of patent acquisitions (oil companies own a large number of solar technology companies. BP Solar is one good example) and outright greed on the part of inventors (ie, asking for royalties so expensive commercialization is impossible.)

    It'd be really nice if one of these scientists recognized how desperately we need their work, and released it publicly. The fame it would generate would assure fortune alone...

    1. Re:basic math by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's uber bullshit, given that commercially available panels are anywhere from 10-20% efficient; that efficiency calculation is based upon the maximum amount of solar radiation hitting a certain area of the earth, and you can't change it. The maximum improvement would therefore be 5-10x.

      Commercially available panels operate in a narrow frequency range. Like plants, their efficiency tends to be given in terms of what percentage conversion there is of light within the convertable range of wave lengths.

      The idea behind the magical dyes is to be able to use more frequencies of light, so at the same efficiency, you get more energy. Pretty simple really.

      I hope to see some of these technologies combined soon; if you could have the holographic collectors, plus the nanosolar plastic-backing and grid layout, and some dye technology to permit the use of a broader spectrum of light, you could potentially really get huge gains. It remains to be seen, however, how many of these technologies will turn out to be complementary.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  44. No, you don't have to track the sun. by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well no, the angle doesn't change the amount of energy hitting the panel. What it changes is how well the semiconductor solar cells can convert that energy. You don't have to track with these panels because the organic film absorbs, then re-emits the light, and due to the nature of the molecules, it always re-emits the light in the same direction, regardless of the incoming angle. The classic semiconductor solar cells themselves, attached all the way around the edges, are the devices that are sensitive about angle. They receive light at their optimal angle always, emitted from the organic film on the plates, rather than directly from the sunlight.

    You lose efficiency in the absorption and re-emission process, but that loss is apparently worth the cost of admission, if these guys have done their math right. Being from MIT, we can hope they can do math.

    This technique has a whole host of advantages over classic off-the-shelf panels you can buy today, which the article didn't go into.

    The panels you can buy today are very sensitive to shadows. Each cell produces only so much voltage. To get a useful voltage out of them, you have to wire them up in series. If some percentage (50%) of a row is shadowed, the panel will actually effectively shut itself down, and produce no power at all, because of the non-participating cells. (The shutdown is accomplished with passive circuitry, not some sort of machine or processor.) This means that in a typical residential situation, you can't have so much as a chimney on your roof, or your panels could become very expensive powerless decorations. You certainly can't have any trees that could even partially shade your roof. This concept eliminates that problem. The organic molecules in question are very egalitarian about how they re-emit what they absorb. It gets spread out evenly, all the way around. This means that if any portion of the panel is shaded, all of the semiconductor cells still get a lot of (concentrated) light, and it takes a lot more shadow to shut them down.

    Another issue with modern panels is the fact that a classic semiconductor solar cell is useful only through a very narrow band of wavelengths. Sunlight is very broad band light. (No jokes about bitrates, thank you.) It shows up at your roof in all kinds of frequencies. The panels you can buy today ignore a large fraction of those frequencies, since they only work at what they're tuned for. However, in the process of ignoring the other frequencies, your standard cell also blocks them entirely. So even though you can manufacture semiconductor cells with different bandgaps that will absorb different sunlight frequencies, you can't stack them directly on top of each other and gain anything. The uppermost in the stack shadows all those beneath, so they're pointless. An older slashdot story about how to manufacture a multi-bandgap semiconductor cell was posted a while ago, but that's still in early research stages too, and it apparently involves fairly difficult semiconductor manufacturing techniques. These panels do an end-run around that problem. Different dye coatings absorb different frequencies of sunlight and DON'T block the remaining frequencies. They pass through. So you can stack concentrator panels, up to some limit, and each one has semiconductor solar cells around the edges specially tuned to utilize the light frequency the dye emits. This is the big win, and the cause for the whopping efficiency claims. The transmissiveness of these concentrators for frequencies they're not tuned for means you can make a sandwich out of them and the resulting panel can use many more frequencies out of the same square meter. There's probably still some limit to how many layers you can stack before you're wasting your efforts, but it's enough to be worth the trouble.

    Lastly, classic semiconductor cells can be manufactured specifically to operate efficiently in concentrated light vs standard out-of-the-sky sunlight. That's the reason for the Fresnel lens panels that have

    1. Re:No, you don't have to track the sun. by farnsaw · · Score: 1

      Well no, the angle doesn't change the amount of energy hitting the panel.

      Actually it does, but not because of the angle but because of the amount of and characteristics of the atmosphere the sunlight travels through to get to the solar panel. For example, at dawn, the sunlight travels through more air than at noon and that air is generally cooler and denser. While at sunset, the sun travels through more air (than at noon) and the air is generally much warmer. At noon, it is much less air to travel through and the temperature is usually somewhere between the coolest and hottest of the day.

      --
      "Computer Scientists can count to 1024 on their fingers" (non-mutant, non-mutilatated, human computer scientists)
    2. Re:No, you don't have to track the sun. by instarx · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well no, the angle doesn't change the amount of energy hitting the panel.

      Not true. One square foot of light hitting a surface perpendicularly imparts its energy to one square foot of surface. If you increase the angle of incidence the square foot of light spreads its energy out over a larger area and the original square foot of surface area now receives much less energy. It's the reason we have seasons.

      You had a very long post, but after that first sentence I didn't bother to read the rest of it - I guess first impressions ARE important.

    3. Re:No, you don't have to track the sun. by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      How on earth did you get modded up to +5? The angle has a huge impact on the amount of energy hitting it - take it to 90 degrees and tell me how much is hitting the panel. Being able to absorb the energy that hits the panel regardless of the angle of incidence is great - but it's still the fact that the panel being perfectly perpendicular to the energy source (i.e. the sun) will maximize the amount of energy available regardless.

      Why do you think it gets colder in the winter here? Hint - it's not the earth moving farther from the sun...

    4. Re:No, you don't have to track the sun. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      The panels you can buy today are very sensitive to shadows. Each cell produces only so much voltage. To get a useful voltage out of them, you have to wire them up in series. If some percentage (50%) of a row is shadowed, the panel will actually effectively shut itself down, and produce no power at all, because of the non-participating cells

      That depends on the technology of the panels. Whereas the older PVs, single crystal cells, are sensitive to shade Amorphous cells aren't. With just 5% of the surface of the old tech PVs covered in shade the output can drop a lot but with amorphous cells 50% of the surface can be covered and it will still produce electricity. However single crystal cells are more efficient in full sun than amorphous cells are.

      Another issue with modern panels is the fact that a classic semiconductor solar cell is useful only through a very narrow band of wavelengths. Sunlight is very broad band light. (No jokes about bitrates, thank you.) It shows up at your roof in all kinds of frequencies. The panels you can buy today ignore a large fraction of those frequencies, since they only work at what they're tuned for. However, in the process of ignoring the other frequencies, your standard cell also blocks them entirely. So even though you can manufacture semiconductor cells with different bandgaps that will absorb different sunlight frequencies, you can't stack them directly on top of each other and gain anything.

      Actually you can stack the conductor so different layers capture different frequencies. A company in photography, Silicon Film which seems to have disappeared, was granted a patent on how to stack cmos layers on light sensors so a chip could capture 3 frequencies on the same pixel, at different depths.

      The biggest advantage I see is at the end of the article - the MIT guys have founded a startup and intend to manufacture them.

      Perhaps they can team up with NanoSolar. Larry and Serge have plenty of money, and if this can be commercialized can make a lot more.

      Falcon

  45. Concentration by FrameRotBlues · · Score: 2, Informative
  46. 4, 10, 40? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So which is it? Four, ten or forty times?

    Quite an idiotic article.

  47. This is very old tech by John+Sokol · · Score: 2, Informative

    A. Goetzberger et al., "Solar Energy Conversion with Fluorescent Collectors", Applied Physics 14, 1977, pp. 123-139.

    Yes 1977!!!

    I was also playing with this using plastic from TAP plastics (in the SF Bay Area) http://www.tapplastics.com/ in the late 80's.
    Works ok.

    See:
    Patent 4149902
    Patent 5227773
    Patent 5816238
    Patent 7316497

    Mobay Chemical Corporation make a fluorescent called LISA. "fluorescent dye-doped edge-illuminating emitter panels" Technically.

    There were some articles.
    "A Little Light Goes a Long Way with Lisa", Mobay Corp. Marketing Document.

    "Light-Collecting Plastics-A Brilliant Idea", Provisional Information Sheet, Mobay Corp.

    Steven Ashley, "Razzle-Dazzle Plastic", Popular Science, pp. 100-101. Sorry can't find the year, (any one can you help here)

    --
    I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:This is very old tech by Jeff1946 · · Score: 1

      This is why I love /. Along with the hype, etc. is a response like this one that documents that this is not new technology. Thanks John for responding so well to this article.

    2. Re:This is very old tech by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except that TFA says that it's old technology. The point is that they've figured out how to make it work by studying advances in lasers and the like.

      --
      Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    3. Re:This is very old tech by John+Sokol · · Score: 1

      I didn't realize anyone had a problem making in work in the first place.

      I sure seems to work well when I tried it in the late 80's.

      It was more efficient per amount of silicon used, but not square foot of sun light.

      I am sure this is still the case, it's inherent in the technology. One of the Ph.D I worked with had some explanation why this would never be as efficient per amount of land covered. And also that the plastics degrades in UV light.

      --
      I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
  48. CA deregulated electricity? by falconwolf · · Score: 4, Informative

    California has struggled with an unregulated power supply industry.

    CA didn't really deregulate electricity, power, they shifted the regulations. Before, the same company could own both power generation and power transmission. but when the so called deregulation came it split generation and transmission, a company wasn't allowed to do both. Then transmitters were barred from raising rates but generators weren't.

    Falcon

  49. nuclear power by falconwolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A massive country wide nuclear power plant building spree would need to take place. Right now we have over 100 nuke plants that supply 20% of our electricity

    Nuclear power isn't needed. By 2050 solar power could provide 69% of the US's electrical needs. Wind can also supply a lot, I read where the Rocky Mountains alone contain enough potential wind power to supply the lower 48 states but I didn't find a reference. Then a lot of waste heat goes up smokestacks daily. Here's a quote from TFA: "Here's a Maxwell House coffee roaster in Duval County. They're roasting beans, so all that heat has to go somewhere. About twelve megawatts' worth of potential electricity is going up the stack." In Hawaii about 30% of the big Island's, Puna, is from geothermal power. Geothermal sources produced about 13,000 gigawatt hours in California in 2007, with more available.

    Add all these together and every coal fired plant should be able to be closed without any more nuclear power plants being built and still have plenty of electricity.

    Falcon

  50. Ironically by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    if you go right back to when domestic electricity supply was the breakthrough, you will find the architect of that breakthrough (Edison) had enormous legal and public relations problems with the entrenched gaslight industry who were hell bent on stopping his electric light company.

    Edison did the same himself. His electric company transmitted DC power and when Tesla came out with AC power Edison tried to make it look dangerous. Edison even electrocuted an elephant to prove his point.

    Falcon

    1. Re:Ironically by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Yep, economic swings and roundabouts. (And now elephants, thanks for the macarbe link)

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    2. Re:Ironically by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Yep, economic swings and roundabouts. (And now elephants, thanks for the macarbe link)

      Yea, when I read about that years ago I was shocked, figuratively.

      Falcon

  51. there is no real market for neighborhood solar by falconwolf · · Score: 1
    1. Re:there is no real market for neighborhood solar by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      From 00.01% of production to 00.012%
      (forgot to mention that since 62% of Solar owners forget to wash their cells this week, the production of solar went down for most owners?)

    2. Re:there is no real market for neighborhood solar by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      forgot to mention that since 62% of Solar owners forget to wash their cells this week, the production of solar went down for most owners?

      Citation please.

      Falcon

    3. Re:there is no real market for neighborhood solar by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the 62% is an invented number; The point is that unless Solar Panels are washed, the dirt will impact their performance. Utility-scale solar installations have a regular washing service. Residential Solar is sold as "Solid State" which is interpreted as "Set-it-and-forget-it.

      My suspicion is that most tax dollars which are spent on Residential Solar are wasted tax dollars - unless the goal is to make rich voters happy - as these funds do little for the Environment, PV production will never by high enough for Middle America to bid on them, they will never provide Energy Independence, and there are technologies which can do both - so PV is bad policy. IMHO.
      AIK

  52. Fears? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1
    Hopefully Chernobyl style meltdowns are a thing of the past.

    But accidents happen, as occurred this week in Tricastin, France. Burning coal mightn't be greenhouse friendly but don't kid yourself nuclear power is ecologically safe.

    Then there's the sensitive issue of selling uranium to countries like Iran.

    For some, the risks are too great and would wish others would just leave the stuff in the ground.

    1. Re:Fears? by vikstar · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call coal powerstations more ecologically safe than nuclear powerstations: "The waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts"

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
    2. Re:Fears? by somnolent49 · · Score: 1

      This isn't quite true. What is true is that more becquerel's are released into the environment from coal waste, because it's more abundant and barely regulated.

    3. Re:Fears? by vikstar · · Score: 1

      Reference please.

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
    4. Re:Fears? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The accident at Chernobyl wasn't a meltdown. The incident you noted in France was a non-event. Nuclear power is the safest, cleanest, and greenest option available.

    5. Re:Fears? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Why don't you try google?

      It might be possible that if you would look some of this stuff up yourself, you wouldn't be sitting there asking someone else to educate you even more when they just schooled you for free already.

      Do you actually know any of the stuff your posting or just repeating what people told you somewhere? I mean this entire "References" stick gets old when almost anything you want to know is at your fingertips on the same interweb your posting from. I would also steer clear of Wikkipedia until at least you have found some creditable sites first. Wikkipedia seems to have it's fair share of problems with biased articles, secrete moderation clubs that work to get certain points across, and of course the famous tenured professors that live in mom's basement who do their tenured job so well that nobody at the university ever notices them enough to know who he is.

    6. Re:Fears? by vikstar · · Score: 1

      This whole "References" stick is the basis upon which researchers can follow someone's reasoning back to the original source, and a way to weed out people who have no idea what they are talking about but still wish to impart their uneducated opinions.

      I'm not saying somnolent49 is one of these, but his statement "This is not quite true." directed towards a published article requires at least one reference refuting it's claims in order to strengthen his or her argument. I know Scientific American is only a magazine and not a proper peer-reviewed scientific journal. However, effective and speedy dissemination of quality scientific knowledge is gained through such aids as referencing, which not only aleviate a researcher from chasing down the studies that are the source of claims made by others, but also show that such claims are well-founded.

      --
      The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim.
  53. Nit pick time... by farnsaw · · Score: 2, Informative

    I know we will all nit pick this to death so here is mine...

    From the FAQ:

    "The sun is an inexhaustible source of clean power."

    Well, not quite. I know that we cannot exhaust it just by using it's normal emissions as we would place no additional drain on the sun's resources by using solar power than if we didn't exist, however, the suns normal processes will eventual exhaust even it's vast resources of Hydrogen and then start "burning" (there you go, nit pick me now) hydrogen which will drastically change its characteristics. I do however agree that we (everyone alive today and probably the human race in general) won't really care by that time because, hopefully, everyone alive today will be long dead by then and, again hopefully, the human race will have moved on to the rest of the galaxy (galaxies?) by then and look back at "the birth place of mankind" with fond memories but the loss of the Earth due to the sun running out of Hydrogen will be a fairly minor news item.

    --
    "Computer Scientists can count to 1024 on their fingers" (non-mutant, non-mutilatated, human computer scientists)
  54. I see a Sun facing land grab coming... by farnsaw · · Score: 1

    I can just see it now as large buildings in cities are being built / retrofitted with these solar panels there will be a huge legal battle as the next piece of land to the south (north for those in the upside down hemisphere) is built upon and the sun is blocked... time to go buy up all the south (north) coast land while it is still cheap. Oh wait... too late.

    --
    "Computer Scientists can count to 1024 on their fingers" (non-mutant, non-mutilatated, human computer scientists)
  55. Acoustic applications for Solar Absorbtion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have been under the impression that a grad student at Oregon State University had used the same structure used to eliminate sound in music studios (yes, the pyramids on the walls) has been applied in solar, in the effect that all light hitting their modified panels reflects around the surface until it is absorbed, thus increasing efficiency. A simple topography tweak coupled with their new transparent transistor material leads to a highly efficient and cheaply produced material. Having trouble finding the link, as it's been a while, any help?

  56. Really want solar by AlexJTanner · · Score: 1

    I would really would love to be able to power my house by solar cells but it's still to expensive. Damn

  57. No economic vacuum by zogger · · Score: 1

    The efficiency gains are not maintaining parity with the worsening economy,near as I can tell remembering prices and looking at it now. Solar PV was a better deal several years ago (I got mine right before peak "good deal" level), because they are built out of tangibles, expensive metals and silicon, and all that money being used has been inflated beyond all reasonableness. The cost rise in the raw materials and getting the fabs to put out silicon and using the aluminum and steel needed for construction and so on, the energy used in the plants and moving them around, the expense of supporting layers upon layers of middlemen to get panels from factory to end users after filtering it through wall street, etc are making the whole watts per dollar go up, not down. The panels themselves have gotten better, we get more watts per square meter now, but it is lost with the other aspects of modern business and manufacturing and how there is no rationality to the "money" system any longer. Another of the larger problems is our global society decided they wanted throw away "iWhatever-touch-yer-pods of the month club" gadgets by the billions as some place to use up expensive fabbed silicon. You want to know where the cheaper solar PV is, it is sitting in hugemongous dumps across the planet in the form of e-waste and tied up with speculator profits/axis of maximum greed and stupidity central banks economy borking. That is where it is at now. Back a decade or so ago, all the stuff needed to make the things and the energy required was loads cheaper, now it is not. People who looked ahead and could run simple sums and thought it might be a good idea to get some solar then bought it, people who didn't bought two dozen cellphones and two dozen different gaming computers and all sorts of other crap like endless streams of giant ass televisions and so on, for which most of them are now sitting in the junk drawer or at some landfill. Now it is going to *require* some amazing Tesla level breakthroughs to get cheaper, whereas with a little economic rationality in the past decade it could have been way more affordable with the normal way of getting incremental improvements. 99.999% of humans *didn't give a crap* back when it was affordable enough to start to do some energy switching around in a big way, along with the transportation mess now of being stuck with giant ass automobiles that the majors put out based on the assumption that oil was near free and would stay that way like forever. It was the mass cult like brainwashing belief system of the "cheap energy forever just because we sayso and refuse to believe it would ever get bad" that has been the largest impediment.

    Anywho, to get to a polite mild criticism at society in general, if "anyone you" don't own solar now it is because you just refused to buy it in the past, you made a decision, based on a gamble, an assumption, that you were going to hold out on the miracle breakthroughs. A million people around the planet though, decided differently, they had a different assumption based at looking at markets and organizing their personal priorities differently, and bought into solar when it was cheaper, and are enjoying it and especially in the last two years are seeing their "investments" in practical home improvements go up in economic value because of price increases for conventional power and metals for manufacturing and so on. It's all in choices, what do you really want, what is more important to you.. Millions of people in the past decade have bought very expensive toys like home theater systems and "personal watercraft" and way overly expensive automobiles with heated rotating cupholders nonsense , all with a negative ROI, where that cash could have gone to some solar panels and gear, that at least had *some* ROI plus insuring some electricity supply completely outside the still manipulated markets and prone to crash and burn when you *least* want or need it to happen centralized electricity delivery system. *Choices* Wait for some tech to be some theoretically "perfect" in your mind, you'll never buy into it.

  58. Simple answers by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

    What seems to be so interesting about this development is that it's not just some crazy new technology that needs a better implementation. Rather, they've developed a new implementation of the old technology, a way that could simply say, "Oh, we can just use the old solar cells - we just route light to them differently." That makes it a much more interesting development than the constant minutiae of small advances in the technology and gives quite a bit more hope that the stuff could actually see the market.

    --
    Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
  59. Turn every window into a producer by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

    If these dyes can be made to block and collect only non-visible wavelengths (and there's no reason to think they can't), they could be applied to the huge vertical glass surfaces of buildings without affecting the occupants' ability to look out. Even if they collect only a small portion of the possible energy, they would make up for it by virtue of reclaiming a huge collection area that would otherwise be going unused.

    Even better, this energy would be produced exactly when it is the most useful -- for obvious reasons, peak production would correlate pretty closely with peak demand. We could finally have buildings that air condition themselves from their own generated power. That alone would take a huge load off the grid.

    Mal-2

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  60. Re:In this house we obey the laws of thermodyanami by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    So let me see, current cells have 15% efficiency or so , the best stuff ( I.e GaAs ) can reach 30% - 40% , and this tech will increase output power by more than an order of magnitude, meaning they should output at least 150% of the energy they receive?

    TFA says 40 X power not 40 X efficiency.

    Falcon

  61. Re:Oh, Is It That Time Again? Gonvernment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Okay, just being contrarian, but in a free-market society, what bureaucracy is responsible for implementing solutions? I thought the market would demand, and businesses would respond?

    Granted, government can do a lot to encourage the growth of a new industry, but is it really government's job to produce industries?

    Consider the health industry. Do they do what is best for people? No, they do what makes a profit: treating sick people. We all know that a little prevention is a worth a pound of cure. It's more than just a saying, it was the conclusion of a Harvard university study of other health care systems that focus on prevention. Why do tyhey focus on prevention? Because the government socialized medicine. Prevention is not profitable in our market system. Either are cures that you can pick in your garden.

    Now consider energy. What we need (the best solutions) and what is profitable are not likely to be the same thing. We will only get what is profitable in a market system. For now it is oil. The big corporate politicians are in the pockets of big oil. So you get oil. It's very clear that the system will not work for out best interests. It needs to be overhauled.

    On a similar note, I am for high oil prices because it forces a shift to alternatives. However, they should have come in the form of a tax that goes to alternative energy research at our national labs and universities. Instead, we waited for the "market" to screw us. Very poor decision making, unless your in the pocket of big oil.

    Although we may not have control over world prices of oil, we fail to consider that ~35% of our oil comes from the US. Most of that oil comes from our land (we the people own it). Little has changed in the dynamics of this oil over the last two years. We sell it to big oil for pennies on the dollar. They turn around and sell it refined to us at the going rate. We should not allow the price of our own oil to float freely with the market. We have been hood winked. They are simply picking our pockets.
    The same goes for many other resources. Folks, we need an overhaul, and quick.

  62. XsunX by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    They make their "solar cell windows" from amorphous silicon.

    So their PV cells can handle shade then? Unlike single crystal PV cells for which the power output drops fast when not fully exposed to sun, as little as 5% of a cell shaded can cut power 50% if not turn it off, amorphous silicon cells can handle some shade.

    Falcon

  63. energy independence by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    PV production will never by high enough for Middle America to bid on them, they will never provide Energy Independence

    So you are more qualified than the researchers than came up with "A Solar Grand Plan"? Their plan says solar power can generate 69% of the US's electricity by 2050. You also know more than the billionaire Texas oil man T. Boone Pickens, Jr? He's announced a plan to eliminate the need for imported oil. His plan is to erect wind turbines through middle America from Canada to Mexico. The electricity that can be produced is enough to close all the LNG, liquefied natural gas power plants in the US. The Wind Energy Resource Atlas of the United States published by the National Renewable Energy Labs details the wind resources in the US. Picken's plan is to use all the LNG as fuel for vehicles thus replacing imported oil.

    Falcon