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Smart Parking Spaces In San Francisco
2centplain sends along a report in the NYTimes on San Francisco's smart parking initiative. He asks, "Any guesses on the when this will be hacked? Like, 'reserving' an empty spot by convincing a sensor that a car is actually parked there, or, perhaps using the wireless mesh network for some other purpose?" Quoting: "This fall, San Francisco will test 6,000 of its 24,000 metered parking spaces in the nation's most ambitious trial of a wireless sensor network that will announce which of the spaces are free at any moment. Drivers will be alerted to empty parking places either by displays on street signs, or by looking at maps on screens of their smartphones. They may even be able to pay for parking by cellphone, and add to the parking meter from their phones without returning to the car."
They know how to find free space.
hilarious
I assume these sensors detect meatal. So:
1) Bums ...
2) Foil hats
3)
4) Chaos, cofusin and many many LOLZ!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I see this ending very, very badly.
Who else imagines a Parking Lot edition of Wacky Races? "Race to the space, Mutley!"
Seems like a huge investment in a technology that probably only has five to ten years of life left in it...
Weaknesses.
So easy to trace and record signals/protocols - they did it with rent a bike in Germany.
Suppose I cover the meter with an alfoil bag, or neutralize the antenna? OK head server says oh my heartbeat lost error.
A Cell-phone or custom meter ammer will cause chaos when trying to pay.
Physically swap parking meters, or re-program them
They get stolen - because each one has an XP licence.
They Get BSOD because they cannot call home.
Just a couple - any more?
Having spent many hours driving around SF. I didn't think there were ANY parking spaces, smart or otherwise.
as "parking" in San Francisco.
We do, however, have some of the most aggressive bums in the world.
"The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
And here I was thinking that parking lots were starting to mark out half-size spaces for Swatch Smart cars.
This scheme will lead to road rage on an unprecedented scale. Every time a spot becomes free there'll be a dozen people making a mad dash for it.
No sig today...
Paying by phone has been a standard procedure in Budapest, Hungary for the last 4 years. Just send an SMS and there you go, another hour or so, depending on your SMS. Each parking district has its separate phone number, so there's no need for fancy high tech equipment, just a few billboards.
I would like to know more about the kinds of technology they are using. There are tons of interesting issues like the communication technology, security, energy supply, ...
Unfortunately, the article does not provide many details so I looked for the web page of the company: http://streetlinenetworks.com/ - However, there isn't much more information to be found there either...
Anyway, it will be exciting to see a real-world wireless sensor network operating on such a large scale!
Why don't they just do what other places do and build car parks in congested areas, with streetsigns saying 'car park x - 200 spaces free', 'car park y - 150 spaces free' etc.?
Japan has something similar to this, albeit with parking lots rather than metered curb spaces, which don't exist to my knowledge. When you enter a dense commercial district, overhead LED signs show a map of the neighbourhood with parking areas colour-coded according to whether there are vacancies or not.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
âoeIf the San Francisco experiment works, no one will have to murder anyone over a parking space,â said Donald Shoup, a professor of urban planning at the University of California, Los Angeles, whose work on the pricing of parking spaces and whether more spaces are good for cities has led to a revolution in ideas about relieving congestion." - from TOA
Wow... because you know, we all _have_ to murder people for a parking space now.
That having been said, I've seen the start of something like this in an airport (Portland, IIRC). Parking spots have a light over then that shows green when they are empty and red when they aren't. Very handy to look down an entire row and know it's all full. In this one, you might be able to check for parking in the area when you get close and get over there, all on your phone. An interesting side effect of this is that the parking authority would be able to determine rates of fill and determine if they need to build a parking garage in the area.
I'm sure it can be hacked. I'm also sure there are meter maids who can probably have an automated system to check that stuff, like one that says it's full when they go by and it's clearly not. A quick push of a button and it gets communicated back to parking central authority to fix it. Bear in mind, most folks are not hacking folks, so it's really going to be a small subset that ever need this treatment.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Be suspicious. Be very suspicious.
It's a honey trap. A devious revenue enhancement scheme. That's a "good excuse" to invest in such a pricey technology.
Notice that there's always a sign posted that shows a specific time limit for parking? The time limits are being enforced more and more often.
A ticket will bring in more money to the city than a meter. Of course, they'll gladly keep any additional money you put in the meter after the time limit, too.
Besides, do you have any idea as to how much money SF makes off just the meters? It's a LOT!
me. --a by-product of public education
sentient life form?
While it sounds cool and all, I don't understand how this is going to solve anything. If people are circling the blocks searching for parking, it's because there are no spots, not because they can't find them. This system doesn't create more parking spaces, it just fuels a feeding frenzy. Right now, if a spot opens up, the only people that know about it are the drivers on that particular street. With this new system, the spot will announce itself to dozens of vehicles in all the surrounding blocks, and there will be a mad dash to get to that spot. It will create traffic congestion. What they need is to tear down a few optimally placed buildings, and put in some multi-storey parking garages.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
So let me get mind around this, California bans cellphones while behind the wheel but will possibly tie this to cellphones or even a confusing screen on your dashboard?
When will the madness end?
God: When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
Here's an NPR story from April 23, 2008 on this topic.
The ability to remotely extend the lease means that all parking lots will be occupied 24/7 by those who can afford it. I predict vigilante towing.
The Portland International Airport's short term parking garage has overhead signs that tell you, at each turn, how many empty spaces there are on that row. Then above each spot is a red or green light. You can see the status of every space immediately when you turn on to the row. Very handy.
As far as hacking the sensors goes, we (society) have been using metal detectors to trip traffic lights for years, and an electric eye could check for size. It would require a large metal object to mark the space occupied. Then, the meter would require payment for the space. If it isn't paid for the meter maid shows up to discover a non-vehicle that isn't being paid for and removes it. The next vehicle to show up gets flagged in a database. If the same vehicle gets flagged repeatedly for showing up after a 'hacked' meter you send in the investigators.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
The tickets they dole out will pay for the new parking system. It's a win-win situation!
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
The parking situation in San Francisco is amazngly difficult and expensive. People pay more for parking spaces than others do for rent, in other parts of the country. I know at least one person who quit a San Francisco job and moved out of there because he could not afford to park his car.
I strongly disagree. Public transportation in the US sucks because it doesn't go where you want to go, when you want to go. It works well for a very limited subset of the population that lives in high-density metro areas; it's useless for any task that leaves these areas.
Now before you complain that I'm an apologist, lemme cite some facts. I took a flight from Washington National airport not too long ago. My plan was to take the bus to the Metro train, which would drop me at the airport. Decent plan, right? After a mile walk to the nearest bus stop, I stood there for 45+ minutes waiting for the bus, which didn't show up. At that point, I had burned my "extra" time budget and was in danger of missing my flight. I jogged home, got in my car, and drove to the airport. I passed the bus some 60 minutes after it was scheduled to make a stop. Why didn't I drive to the Metro and continue from there? Because it was a weekend, and the trains run on a 12-minute schedule. With the bus-delay, I was in danger of missing the plane if I missed the Metro by the perfect amount.
Similarly, I *can* take public transportation to work, but I did the calculations, and the one-way time varies from 3 to 4 hours. That's for a 26-mile commute distance. Public transportation is coordinated at the local level here, so it's a horrible PiTA to switch across five different transport methods to get somewhere - bus, train, bus, different bus, etc. Schedules between municipalities are completely uncoordinated, so it takes maximum time to go anywhere. If you don't value your time, it's a wonderful way to burn through it.
What's that? I should move closer to work? Unfortunately, my office is located in an industrial business park. There isn't a residential area within 5 miles. Further, even if I could make that work, I'd be a huge distance from everything else. The US isn't laid-out for a public transportation infrastructure. It's been pasted on as an afterthought, and it sucks. We'd need to make some horrific changes to install a useful transport network, and I don't expect that to happen in my lifetime.
That's very well put. This is a case of technology solving the wrong problem, possibly at the cost of introducing new ones (aggressive behavior, cheating, jamming, system malfunction, etc.) At best it might eliminate very minor inefficiencies associated with some spaces being vacant for 10-15 minutes at a time. The real problem is that there may be 4x as many vehicles as available spaces, so getting rid of those temporary vacancies is a drop in the bucket.
This fall, San Francisco will test 6,000 of its 24,000 metered parking spaces in the nation's most ambitious trial of a wireless sensor network that will announce which of the spaces are free at any moment.
Drivers will be alerted to empty parking places either by displays on street signs, or by looking at maps on screens of their smartphones. They may even be able to pay for parking by cellphone, and add to the parking meter from their phones without returning to the car.
- Wireless sensors?
- Street signs?
- Portable two-way communication devices?
- maps?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
BWI Airport has the LED system in the short-term garage. Overhead Green/Red indicators let you know if a spot is available, and there's another indicator at the end of the row showing if the row is full or has at least one empty. That was surprisingly useful, and eliminated a bunch of frustration (especially if you're pressed for time.)
The parking garage is a controlled environment. I'm not sure it'd have the same benefit in an open space.
The worst thing they could do is replace the many standard parking meters with just a few kiosks or with square posted meters that are incompatible with bike locks. Then we would have no place to lock up our bikes. It's hard to get the city to come out and install bike parking (plus there are never enough racks) and the privately installed racks are usually useless (they buy racks designed by people who don't ride bikes and/or install them too close to a wall.)
1. Add reservation option. Mark the spot as yours before you get there.
Drive calmly to the spot, as central server knows how far you are from the spot and it won't start charging you for the time it takes you to get there driving at the allowed speed.
2. Add red LEDs to the parking spot markers. Have them light up when the space is reserved. Have them turned off by sending a code from your mobile.
3. Add option to report people taking your reserved spot. Have tow-trucks ready and waiting.
Also have option to charge them for "stealing" your reserved parking spot, since you have already paid for it.
4. Profit!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Paying with a cell phone? Hell, we can pay by text here... in Winnipeg of all places.
Many US, Canadian and UK cities are served by Verrus for paying parking in certain parking lots (even on street in some places, but not here) with a cell phone by dialling a number and having an account with them, easily setup online. Here in Winnipeg they also offer pay by text. The only other place they offer that is in the UK. I pay by phone Mon-Fri for parking downtown, and it's super convenient. Saves hauling around $5 in change and having to stop at the ticket machine on the way into the lot.
Within the last couple years, the City of Winnipeg instituted a set of brand new parking machines, eliminating most if not all old on-pole parking meters. You can pay by credit card, coins, and as of at least May, by phone. You can even pay your fine online.
What we DON'T have is the wireless signs that show number of spots free. In San Francisco, with a metro population of 7 some million, compared to Winnipeg's paltry 694,000, and a population density more than 4.5 times higher than Winnipeg, finding a space is likely a lot harder. We usually just need to drive around the block to find some, never mind the fact that the number of surface parking lots here is very high.
add to the parking meter from their phones without returning to the car.
this is REALLY missing the point of "max 2 hours" limits on meters. they were never meant to be a replacement for all-day parking in a garage. they were meant to be a way to keep commuters and all-day tourists from hogging up a spot all day, keeping locals and casual shoppers (and those visiting municipal facilities or medical offices) from having convenient access.
by allowing someone to just casually "push a button" from where they are and hold the spot another two hours, they effectively have created a new commuter spot and while its nice that the city gets the money, it makes things worse for the locals who actually need access for only an hour or two.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Wow.
We've had that in Norway for years, and I assume a lot of other countries has it too.
I'm just baffled that this oppertunity is written after "may even". It's a lot simpler to implement than vacant/busy sensors. All you need at the physical site is a sticker with a phonenumber/code on it.
"What helps you do integral calculus and find parking spots?"
"Clean living, Dr. Meek."
I just hope it doesn't atrophe my ability to integrate now that I won't need to use clean living to find parking spots. (in sanfran anyways)
You're right that public transportation in the US sucks because "it doesn't go where you want to go, when you want to go." You're wrong when you say that the "US isn't laid-out for a public transportation infrastructure."
While it is true that even with a really good system there would be many rural areas in the US that aren't covered, that's not really all that bad. A good transportation system would allow people in rural areas to take their cars to the closest public transit point and let a bus/train/plane/whatever else take over from there. Suburbs, for instance, are perfectly good locations for train stations and bus routes, but they rarely exist, or if they do, they are horribly inadequate.
Take Oswego, NY as an example. It has 1 main road through town and 17,000 citizens along with a university located off of that main road. But in Oswego, the bus from the uni to a supermarket, for example, takes a good 30 minutes, whereas by car it takes 5. The hilarious part about Oswego's transit system, the "Centro", is that it won an award for excellence from the American Public Transportation Association in 2006. Meanwhile, the bus in Oswego comes at seemingly random times and doesn't get to its destination in a logical manner. Compare that to even the crappiest European bus systems, and any award at all is laughable.
The sad thing is that Oswego's transit system is hardly the exception. Nearby Rochester's bus system is even worse. Traveling into the city by bus will take at least 2-3 times as long from a suburb (say, from RIT) as it would by car. (Not to mention most of Henrietta, NY lacks the sidewalks necessary to safely walk to a bus stop anyway)
I could sit here all day listing problems with our transit system, but the reason I know we can improve public transportation around the country is that there are areas where public transportation really works. (Trains between CT and NY for example. Sure, Metro-North is dirty and old, but they generally run close to on time). It's going to take time to solve the problem of public transportation, as there are many chicken and egg issues that will only be worked out with time (transit authorities will only add new routes if they have more customers, but they won't get more customers unless they add new routes, etc). But as gas goes up, more people will switch to public transit. And this small amount will allow it to expand, which will mean more people will use public transit, and it will expand more, and so on.
i think you also forget to factor in the fact that "transportation" decisions were taken at times when public transport was seen as a filthy communist ideology as opposed to the intrinsic individualist freedom loving automobile.
There are people in the US who routinely drive 50 miles plus each way to their office...
you made the decision for a variety of reasons(nice safe suburbs, better schools, etc.) stop bleating when your chickens come home to roost.
Get out of your cars, or accept that they are part of a luxury lifestyle and earn more money to pay for it.
Any guesses on the when this will be hacked?
Why do you have to ask this yourself? Can't you live together, respecting eachother and use this cool new tech to live better? As a hacker myself I can understand that the first thing you would like to do is take it apart and understand exactly how it works to make it work in ways it's not supposed to, but "reserving an empty spot by convincing a sensor that a car is actually parked there" instead of respectfully reserve it the legal, correct and respectful way is just wrong.
In an ideal place, where people respect eachother that would not be necessary. Maybe SF is not an "ideal place", I don't know, never been there, but you could try to make it become one by not hacking cool stuff like this, and use it the proper way instead.
I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
With parking fee collection becoming more computerized, it makes less and less sense to have a flat rate for an arbitrary amount of time, especially as prices go up. If it were still 25 cents per 15 mins, that wouldn't matter as much, but not only is the price at least $2/hour (downtown where I live), but it's one hour minimum. What if you only want to stop for 5 mins to grab something from a small store? (And you know you'll get a ticket in those 5 mins)
Now $2 isn't a whole lot of money, but implementing a system that allows you to "refill" a meter wirelessly makes less sense to me than swiping your credit card, or whatever payment option is available, and having it wait you until you leave, then bill you for the time you used. I love neat new techno gadgetry as much as everyone else (this is slashdot) but sometimes you gotta keep it simple.
--Not to be worried, Pitr fix.
So let me get mind around this, California bans cellphones [sfgate.com] while behind the wheel but will possibly tie this to cellphones or even a confusing screen on your dashboard?
Hands-free cell phones are allowed. I believe the idea is to make sure you have both hands on the wheel--which makes the law of questionable value for a variety of reasons (is a hands-free unit really less distracting? Why is it still legal to have one hand on the wheel and one hand holding a Big Mac while you talk on your hands-free phone?). But still, locating empty parking spaces via cell phones isn't a priori a violation of the law. (Besides, the ideal case is having a passenger look for spots on their cell phone while you're driving....)
With the topping up approach to parking meters, I suppose the financial risk of forgetting and getting a ticket is what enforces the notion of the parking limits.
With these electronic parking meters (the ones that accept credit cards), you still have to guess how long you need the meter. If you have my credit card (or some form of ID, photo of car w/ license plate, ...), then let me pay at the end (just like most toll garages). To motivate short-term parking, have the rate increase ($1 first hour, $2 second, $4 third hour, ...).
Head for the long-term/daily parking if you expect to need it.
You end up paying more if you park short-term but unexpectedly stay longer, but it would be a reasonable amount rather than a huge parking ticket.
I was just there. I don't think you can pay by cell phone--it's a normal token for ticket system, but each garage has a billboard announcing how many spaces are left. This is also true of the interior spaces. You dare not venture into one that claims no spaces are left (Umm, we got stuck inside when we did that), but it's very helpful to know when it says '116' left that you are likely to get a space. You get either a ticket or a token at the beginning which you exchange for a 'get out of jail' ticket (or token) at the end by paying with cash, cedit, or debit. Much better than sticking dollar bills through a little hole, plus you actually get a printed receipt.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
If the sensors ("bumps") are anything like past technology (say, for traffic lights), they are simple induction loops. Car parks on sensor, magnetic field is disrupted, sensor sends signal to base station. So, to reserve a spot for your friend coming over? Put a magnet on the sensor. Sensor registers a car parked there. Problem solved!
If you rode a bike, you could get to work in an hour and 15 minutes without much trouble.
They probably do somethng stupid like count how many cars have gone in and how many have gone out. But this is different! It uses wireless and intarwebs and all that. This is parking 2.0!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Also, CA only banned talking on cellphones without a hands-free headset, not using them. You can still text message, email, surf the web, etc. without getting a ticket.
I bought a house many years ago. One of the legal obligations was that I had to sign-off having viewed the "Master Plan" for the county. It's a 20-year plan for development in the area, and shows where the gub'ment is planning to issue permits for different applications. They flash it under your nose so you can't bitch when "eminent domain" seizes your house for a hyperspace-bypass.
... at the cost of $4.5B for about 30 miles. It doesn't go anywhere useful (though they are building a new town at the eastern end, benefitting the land owners.) So it appears we're more than willing to sink billions into bloated highway projects, but not a dime into new public transport elements.
Nowhere on the Master Plan was any form of public transportation infrastructure. They should have light-rail running between major population areas, but they don't. Busses are a joke - there's no such thing as an "express" that'll take you between major areas for local distribution. Residential and commercial growth is managed based on projected tax revenue.
DC's Metro Rail system is wonderful if you're traveling radially into or out of DC. It's virtually useless if you want to go from, say, Potomac to Wheaton, or from Vienna to Braddock. Sorry, the trains don't go there.
In Maryland, they're building a new hunk of highway called the Inter-County Connector. The ICC has been held-up in court by the tree-huggers for 30+ years. Yes, 30+ years. They're finally building it now
Public transportation infrastructure in the US is an afterthought. Always has been. I'd applaud someone proposing a monorail system, simply because he's got a plan, and that's a huge step up on the state.
Don't worry, it won't be long before such a system is used to deny more of our freedoms, all in the name of Safety, Security, and Crime-Fighting. Not to mention concentrating more wealth in the hands of corporate masters rather than providing gainful employment for a large number of people.
You're stupid if you are going to let a city start tacking things onto your cell phone bill. Haven't there been enough stories already about the problems you get yourself into once you okay outside charges onto your cell phone? This is not a credit card you're using here folks with the protections mandated for them.
And with all the other, bigger, problems facing The City by the Bay, why aren't they tackling them first?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
At least one UK city is already putting this information on the web, on a Google Map too! Not just parking 2.0, but roadworks, traffic, bus stops and CCTV 2.0 too!
http://leicestertravel.info/
"Traffic and roadworks" shows planned roadworks, and presumably accidents (none, currently)
"Car Parks" shows how many spaces there are in each car park (and their location, of course)
"Bus stops" (zoom in to maximum) shows bus stops, and bus departure times (presumably based on the GPS tracking from the buses, since that's what's on the real bus stop displays in the city). It also gives the number to text when you're away from a PC.
"Jam Cams" shows pictures from traffic cameras (i.e. CCTV aimed at busy junctions).
The suburbs of DC are not bicycle-friendly. Most roads are full of "road rage" drivers who view bikes as an obstruction. I have two friends who were forced off the road by ... assholes. One ended up in the hospital. Your statement needs some conditions:
>If you rode a bike, you could get to work in an hour and 15 minutes without much trouble,
if:
- car drivers were respectful and didn't go out of their way to try to kill you;
- highway restrictions didn't prohibit bikes (MD 32 prohibits walking too);
- I could maintain an *average* speed of 20MPH (I can't manage an average speed of 30MPH in my truck);
I used to have a 9.2 mile commute, and I rode my bike to work often. I didn't dare go near the busy roads, though. That was asking to die. Typical one-way times were about 45 minutes. I'd expect my current commute to take over 2.5 hours under ideal conditions (i.e. no assholes on the road.) I don't know about you, but I don't have an additional 2-3 hours to piss down a hole each day.
Last time I used a bus, it cost me £1.50 to travel 2 miles (a recent 5 mile taxi ride cost £10) . That makes the break-even point of buying an old heap of a car, taxing and insuring it and putting fuel in at £1 a litre what? About 5 miles a day?
I am not counting the cost of parking, but then I am not considering the agony of dragging all the crap that most people need to take to work and back on and off public transport. Or carrying said crap on a pushbike.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
"They may even be able to pay for parking by cellphone, and add to the parking meter from their phones without returning to the car."
Why wouldnt they just charge by the minute, leave your car there for days if you want. If you can pay by cellphone i'm sure they could use a billing system like phones. Not to mention doing nothing is more convenient than phoning the parking lot.
Now, any guesses on when this will be hacked?
Point taken. Why doesn't it go where you want it to go? dkleinsc and CRCulver hit the nail on the head. Since public mass transit is viewed as serving only the lower than middle class and the non-white, there's little incentive to make it speedy and convenient. Hopefully, as economic conditions force more middle class people onto public mass transit, things should improve, because of their economic and political power. How long will it take? I have no idea.
Yeah....I thought feeding the meter was technically not legal anyways since you are not supposed to hold the space for more than one hour or two hours, whatever the max time limit is. You probably won't get a ticket for going back and feeding the meter every hour since the meter-maids usually only check to see if the meter is expired, but it's odd to me that the city would be making it really easy to do this over a cel phone.
Tolerance does not tolerate intolerance, or hypocrisy.
How the fuck is a good education for you kids a luxury? I would say it's a necessity of the highest order. It's the only chance they have at having as good of a life as their parents, and the only future this country has. Oh, and if you think throwing more money at inner city schools to improve them is the solution, think again. The Cleveland city schools spend significantly more per student than either the suburb I grew up in or the one I am raising my kids in, yet they barely afford even the best students any real education and those suburbs turn out 80-90% college bound graduates.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I love living in Buffalo, but I have to say that the public transportation system sucks. We have a subway, but it's a one-line system that connects downtown (in the south-west) to the University at Buffalo's south campus (in the north-east corner of the city).
It's a shame. First of all, there are thousands of potential users at the university's north campus, but the subway was never completed that far due to suburbanites being afraid of "urban" riff-raff taking the train.
Second, the subway line runs through an area that's been depopulated and depressed for 30 years. Main Street is not a place most people in Buffalo want to go. The prosperous north-south Elmwood corridor lies in the western part of the city, and getting from there to the subway just isn't worth the time.
The end result is that the train is almost deserted on most days, except when there's a public event, like a Sabres game or (like this weekend) a large public festival. Then, the limited downtown parking makes it worthwhile to part at UB's south campus and take the train to the event.
The original plan for the train also included a line going to the airport, which was scrapped for the same reason. During my university years, I would have loved to hop on the train on north campus (where the majority of students live), ride it downtown, grab a bite to eat, then ride it to the airport. I did that kind of thing all the time when I lived in New York City; the airtrain is overpriced, but very convenient.
The whole New York area public transit system works very well, including the Long Island Rail Road, Metro North, and even Jersey Transit. People on Long Island even take the train to different destinations on the island without traveling all the way to the city center.
Just park the car before using the phone! Oh, wait...
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
I disagree with you and agree with the statement "US isn't laid-out for a public transportation infrastructure."
The reason that I agree with this ia from my recent travels in America. What I found was that American towns and cities are laid out very differently to how we do it back home (New Zealand). In NZ all the shops will be grouped together in locations in the suburbs and also main centers in cities, so you cna go to a single location to get groceries, banking, fast food, petrol, post shop, resturants etc... But in America they seemed to have placed shops all over the place, seemingly wherever there was space. So if you wanted to do a number of different things you would need to go to a number of different locations making it more convenient to use a car than public transport, as it is not very nice to have to get on an off a number of different buses/trains with a number of packages.
In London a bus is 0.90 for as many miles as you like, no matter what the distance (on the same route). The high prices everywhere else in the UK are always a surprise to me! (Taxes subsidise the London price.) Also, in London a bus pass is valid on all the buses, whereas in many other cities competing bus companies don't honour each other's passes.
(It's not correct to assume that a 4-mile journey would have been 3 anyway, it doesn't seem to work like that!)
Now, shortly after this, they will be able to send you parking tickets, by cell phone. How convenient. :/
This system really won't help... San Francisco already has a low-tech solution!
The homeless people find open parking spaces and wave down cars!
No, I will not work for your startup
"I strongly disagree. Public transportation in the US sucks because it doesn't go where you want to go, when you want to go. It works well for a very limited subset of the population that lives in high-density metro areas; it's useless for any task that leaves these areas."
Hence "High prices did spur better investment in public transportation in Europe, while in America low gas prices created a culture where everyone young and old thinks he needs his own car."
No one disagrees that public transportation is underdeveloped in the USA.
What about running this wacky idea through simulation software before actually investing millions on something that might be a total dud?
If you go to a neighborhood like the Haight or the financial district during a hot time, there are more cars then spaces. Spaces are either claimed before someone can start their car and pull away from the curb... or they're claimed shortly thereafter. Moreover, traffic and intersections are so slow, that getting from point A to point B can take considerable time. When I snag a parking space it's almost always because I was lucky enough to be on a block where one -just- became available. If I had to drive 3+ blocks to snag a space, I'd be damn lucky if it was still open by the time I got their.
This might be handy for moving a car at night because of street cleaning. People don't move cars as much at night, but less cars are on the road, and spots stay open for longer. However, if all of your neighbors are also alerted to a single open spot, this could get old - fast.
I'd be MUCH happier if SF would spend this money building a new lot that didn't cost $20 -$30 for a day.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Distance from London:
- Paris: 415 km (258 mi)
- Madrid: 1738 km (1080 mi)
- Berlin: 1155 km (718 mi)
For comparison, DC to Orlando FL is 852 mi (1371 km), and you haven't left the country yet. Continuing to the southern end of Florida, Miami is 1062 miles (1709 km.) Please note that you've only covered about half the north-south distance of the US. It's a completely different transportation paradigm (gawd I hate using that word, but it's appropriate here.)
The post you replied to didn't mention education at all, which means you wasted your time on a useless rant. Well done, asshole.
From the GP:
you made the decision for a variety of reasons(nice safe suburbs, better schools, etc.) stop bleating when your chickens come home to roost.
I guess you didn't receive the gift of a good education yourself =)
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
And it's already illegal to do that while driving in California.
I By the way:
Good luck getting paid, Steetline. San Francisco stiffed the company that installed the excellent nextmuni system (which by the way, is far more practical than encouraging people to drive to downtown San Francisco... it's not just the parking that's maxed out).
they were meant to be a way to keep commuters and all-day tourists from hogging up a spot all day
The policy may have begun with this good intention, but two-hour limits exist today primarily to supplement municipal revenue through tickets. There will never be remote meter feeding. It is much more profitable for the city to extort $25 from someone who lost track of the time than it is to collect the $1/hr rate for a metered space. They want you to screw up much like the credit card company wants you to miss a payment (late fee!)
Just note the stink city hall makes whenever someone proposes eliminating meters.
Could you set it up to send you a text message if your car leaves the stall without you?
The article you linked to is designed to shock you and sell papers/get click-throughs.
For one thing, there was a "grace period" before the law went into effect. It's just that the grace period ended on July 1st. Most of us in California have known about this law for at least 10 months -- if not longer.
You can still use your cell phone with your bluetooth headset (the device doesn't have to be bluetooth, it just needs to be handsfree). You can still dial your cell phone with voice recognition. And you can still dial a number manually, and/or not use a headset, if you pull over to the side of the road.
The handfree technology is pretty good these days and it's become mainstream. So it's not like this law is as inconvenient or as "mad" as you think it is.
Also, California has much better government data-disclosure (due to some recent court decisions) than many other States, so you can be sure that this parking meter data will be published, integrated, and rebroadcasted in real-time by many services like Tom Tom directly into people's GPS units.
Maybe you shouldn't commute a thousand miles, then.
I've been patiently waiting for you to follow up on your pathetic internet "threat".
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=606465&cid=24100855
I notice you're still a loser and I'm still laughing at how ridiculous you are.
So, any more stupid internet threats I can laugh at you about?
You've had the luck of the draw, friend. You may not have been on a bus with a screaming lunatic, but I have (in Portland, OR, with its good transit system, yet).
On the other hand, I haven't had the misfortune to get robbed or assaulted on public transit.
26 mi? You could ride your bicycle, but that depends on your fitness, bike friendly roads, showers at the office, etc.
The technology isn't really about finding existing available spaces. It's about yield management. Sure you can "hack" the space and reserve the spot. But the system will be charging you. They can adjust prices based on demand and even charge you extra to reserve spots. But believe me, nobody's going through this trouble to manage free parking in the neighborhoods. It's about paid parking in parking congested areas: North Beach, Downtown, Mission, etc. The nice part is, they can set prices to help ensure free spaces. Set marking clearing prices that ensure an open space on every other block. They can also adjust rates to ensure turnover so that people parking more than an hour or two or four will park in off-street garages. All in all, a burden to locals, but a great revenue source that will boost the overall efficiency of driving in the city and relieve congestion. Plus, if they put the money towards public transit and Gavin and the Sups decide they actually want to fix transit by making a couple people unhappy (yes you 2 clement riders, 21 hayes) and the rest of us happy (1 california, 38 geary, etc), then we might once again have a functioning city. Except for the homeless, trash, potholes, shootings, car break-ins, and other joys. Eff.
They do this all over the place in France, except instead of thousands of wireless sensors, they just use whether or not the parking meter has expired.
Yes, Boston has an excellent T system, and driving very often means taking well over twice as long to risk life, limb, and sanity driving before you sell a significant fraction of your soul to find a parking spot.
The problem lies in getting TO the T and getting out again. There's a commuter rail system, true, and I have in fact taken it many times. Despite the fact that the commuter rail has always traditionally operated at a loss, it's rather expensive. And you still have to coordinate your trip just right, because if you miss a train, very often you're going to be an hour and a half late somewhere, unless of course you plan against it by scheduling to arrive an hour and a half early.... Also, you have to get --to-- the commuter rail stop, which means?.... driving.
This is because, as far as the suburbs around Boston goes, you have two options of getting around:
1) Drive
2) Wish you had the option of 1) and instead stay exactly where you are.
There are no buses. There is no TAXI. People will not pick up a hitchiker. Distances in the sprawling suburbs are too prohibitive to walk practically, and even bicycling is difficult. Also, there are no bike lanes, the edges of the road are very uneven, and very often biking means taking your life into your hands.
One side-effect of this lack of transportation is that there are a vast number of elderly drivers, who know they're unsafe, and whose relatives know they are unsafe, and yet still drive (although usually only during the daylight hours, and only a few times a week).
The reason for this is they literally have no choice. An elderly person without a driving license, kind-hearted relatives or neighbors nearby, or a good knowledge of local social services faces a very, very real prospect of literally starving to death. I wish I was exaggerating.
So, yes, while Boston itself has an excellent subway system, and the immediate area is well served by busses, I would hardly hold Massachusetts as a whole up as a paragon of public transportation.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
So what you are saying, is that in Portland Or, with it's good public transit, every bus comes with a screaming lunatic? That every time you ride the bus, there is someone occupying the Screaming Lunatic seat, going full tilt?
Because I see more near accidents on a 6 lane straight stretch of road out in front of my work than I can keep track of. I guess that means that every driver everywhere in the USA is a fucking moron who doesn't know how to drive... because occasionally I see how inconsiderate and selfish drivers can be in causing and almost causing accidents.
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -D. Adams
In the UK in several cities as you approach on major arterial roads there are electronic boards showing how many parks are left in each nearby car park. This gives you an idea of where to go to get your park. There's no point in heading for a park with 3 spaces left when there's another with 70 free spaces. So people aren't competing for individuals spaces but it helps a lot. A minor variation would be to add an up or down arrow to show if the free spaces are increasing or decreasing over, say, the last 10 minutes. That way if there's 10 spaces and decreasing (down arrow) you know it's probably not worth trying there.
Also, in Switzerland in 1977 I recall going into a massive car park in Geneve that had blue indicator lights next to each parking space. If the park was empty the light was on. It was very easy to drive down the ends of the very long rows of cars and spot the individual lights that were on - even if it was way off in the distance. This is a simple idea that I'm surprised hasn't taken off over the last 30+ years. Possibly maintenance of individual car detectors and the power and light bulbs needed creates considerable ongoing costs. Still, you'd think there'd be a market for this. I've never seen it again in any park anywhere in the world - though it may be out there.
pithy comment
It seems that the next step is how easy it would be to tell who had over stayed a meter and be able to start ticketing one second after the meter says expired. All you would need to do is combine with some way of identifying the car in the space, or simply use the info to direct a meter maid to identify the car.
So the "tree-huggers", which is normally a derogatory term, were right then?
Not at all.
I'm saying that finding a bus (or trolly, light rail, subway car, or freeway) with a raving lunatic present is a matter of "luck of the draw". Ride/drive/hitchhike/whatever once, your odds are pretty low. Continue doing so long enough, and the odds approach certainty.
Mind, for some things (say, having your car struck by a bullet from someone "committing road rage"), the time to reach certainty may exceed the (current) average human lifetime, but you can't argue that the odds are zero.
Treating EVERY other driver as if he were "a fucking moron who'll kill you if he can" sounds like a sensible policy to me. Realizing that - some where, some day - you yourself will fit that description for someone else, has some sound benefits to it as well.
But you're talking statistics, and that's prevention; topic for another discussion.