Slashdot Mirror
Fast-Booting OS for Usually-Off Appliance PCs?
An anonymous reader writes "I have some older computer equipment at work that I want to re-purpose as application appliances. The machines will sit, unpowered, until needed, then powered up. No way around the 'sitting powered off' — company directive. What is the quickest-booting OS I could use for them? I know about LinuxBIOS, but that would require new hardware, which does not go along which the re-purposing theme. Some of them do not need to be connected to a network, so an old version of Linux or Windows 98 are possible. DOS is too old to consider. So what are my options?"
Oh, keep the autoexec.bat small.
Un, no. Splashtop requires new hardware. He specifically wants to repurpose old hardware.
While that looks neat, there is no download for it.
"Splashtop is bundled with motherboards, desktops and notebooks by their manufacturers.
Currently, it is available with products from the following manufacturers:
Notebooks
ASUS
Motherboards
ASUS
Desktops"
So, unless you buy an ASUS machine, with this loaded, you look to be SOL.
What part of the questioner's desire to re-purpose old, existing, hardware did you not understand?
Linux + hibernate (swsusp, TuxOnIce) functionality.
No sig, sorry.
There's always BeOS, which prided itself on lightning-fast load times. Otherwise, a rather stripped down UNIX-alike would do you fine.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Dos may work well as well as windows 3.11 or windows 98.
A CF based disk will boot fast as well as a ssd.
More realistically, there is this interesting Linux distribution, Webconverger:
http://webconverger.com/
I've used it for a few web-only systems. Boots up fast enough. Use it as a starting point to tweak. Basically, firefox becomes your operating system and UI. Neat idea.
there is " damn small linux " http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ you could even install it in the /boot partition of fedora as a backup os
"I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
Depending on the intended use, a minimal install of OpenBSD might do the trick.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
DSL linux is really fast when installed on a Hdd.
Boot from a RAMdisk filesystem and make it as small as possible. Rip out all the startup scripts and write your own that just runs the one or two things you actually need running, runs ifconfig, route, etc. manually with hard-coded info (or starts dhclient/pump/dhcpcd). Compile the minimum number of possible drivers into the kernel and don't include any modules at all, nor tools to load modules. Include a bare-bones GUI layer like Nano-X and write your applications using pure Xlib if you can. Otherwise, use the most lightweight WM and GUI toolkit you can find (e.g. straight Tcl/Tk).
For permanent storage, mount a small (e.g. 300 MB) filesystem on a flash card so that the fsck takes just a couple of seconds even if forced. :-)
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Just to be clear: You intend to have old machines sitting around unpowered and then someone WALKS UP TO THEM and presses the power button. The user then waits for the OS to boot and does his thing. Correct?v
So what are these systems being used for? Kiosks? This is critical to determining what you need. For example, QNX boots very quickly but it's an embedded Unix system. But QNX probably won't run whatever app it is you want to run on these systems.
Basically, you said they are going to be application appliances. WHAT application?
You haven't said what exactly these machines are going to be doing, but I fail to see why the extra time that one OS takes over another is a factor to deal with.
If it takes an extra 90 seconds to boot an OS that is stable and reliable, how does shaving that 90 seconds save anything?
Optimizing for boot time over everything else seems very foolish to me.
Take a look at DSL and Puppy Linux. Both are tiny and would boot quickly from a CompactFlash. DSL is probably better for all-around appliance use; Puppy is intended for use as a desktop OS.
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/
http://www.puppylinux.org/
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Any OS with hibernate should be quick enough. I doubt systems vary too much between them. Anything that uses minimal ram and hance has less to load on boot. Just go with whatever OS suits you best.
Older machines are often built better than newer faster stuff. I have several of the white Dell Optiplex machines doing infrastructure stuff for me. Most have uptimes measured in the span between upgrades of my op system (OpenBSD).
It takes almost no more time to install on a 500MHz Dell than some 2.xGHz box. Yes, the disk may take longer to format--but how often are you going to be doing that?
Given the various quality problems with new systems, I'll stick with the older slower systems when I can, which is most of the time.
Splashtop requires a new motherboard. Motherboards aren't always expensive.
But doesn't a new motherboard for a years-old PC typically have new, incompatible CPU and RAM sockets, which require a new CPU and new RAM? At that point, you're practically building a new PC with an old case and drives.
BeOS really was pretty amazing in this respect, and some others. Multithreading was far ahead of anything else at the time, and probably since, as well. On some older machine (P3-ish; much slower HDD than nowadays) I clocked boot time at 15 seconds, OS/2 and Linux distros of the time were more like 1-1.5 minutes on the same hardware.
The way it booted so fast was largely by deferring a lot of the "initialization" stuff until the system was "booted". This is nothing like the awful way Windows (and to a lesser extent KDE/Gnome desktops) keep loading stuff for a good while, letting you see the desktop for a minute before you can really do anything. Under BeOS, said multithreading was well utilized to give you a responsive GUI right at that 15 seconds, but still do background loads of various background processes that you didn't *really* need immediately.
Of course, if you immediately launched something that *did* need the services of something loading in a background thread, you'd obviously have to wait a few more seconds. But even all that background loading was very efficient, and practically, by the time you could make a few clicks, it was loaded.
Buy Text Processing in Python
I think you misspelled EMACS
What is their purpose?
Their purpose is to run a fast booting OS
To expand on this idea as well, perhaps if the application is important enough, this "company directive" will be not quite so direct...iveness.
Use either DSL or puppy. I have used both on older hardware and installed on the HDD the boot is very fast. You could probably speed up the process even more if you compiled it for the specific hardware.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
... built off BeOS, I thinks ;)
I don't know, how about the part where it's a stupid idea and he should just invest in a PC that isn't more than 10 years old?
Don't feed the trolls but...
There are those of us that like old cars, old planes, old trains, old things, for whatever reason. I myself enjoy having old rigs, there is nothing like launching Win 3.11 again to bring me straight back to middle school and my first computer. And when that software is running on the hardware of it's era it becomes so much sweeter. Or sometimes I like to overclock the old stuff, much trickier then it is now. Or sometimes I need a fan, or a case to mod as a rough draft... Yeah when you see something as irrelevant due to it's age and no other criteria you're really limiting yourself to that everything is disposable Wal-Mart style economy, and I pity you.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
Can you afford the extra electricity to power the old PC, and the extra air conditioning to get rid of the massive amounts of heat that old thing is going to put out?
The old things don't put off heat... Listen to yourself. I can't tell you how many Pentiums/K6/Cryix based systems I've seen with no fan but the one in the PSU. Oh and the PSU's, when's the last time you've opened an old computer and found anything higher then 250-300watts max? Can't say that I have, ever. In fact when I received 6 Pentium D's a few weeks ago from an office upgrading all there kit all they came equipped with mere 250w PSU, and those are somewhat modern systems based on an architecture that was known for reaching up to 115 W in 3.6-3.8 GHz Prescotts. So yeah I think your point is moot and your talking out your ass. But we'll never know :) He didn't specify the hardware.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
We already have that, but with FORTH, it's called OpenFirmware and I wish Intel would have adopted it instead of going with the slow to be adopted EFI.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
It is an optimized Linux stack. It should boot from a HDD. It doesn't "require" a specific motherboard, so much as ASUS is the only company to currently integrate it in their motherboards. The integrate it by storing the Splashtop software stack on a flash chip.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Can *we* afford the environmental cost of replacing a working system?
http://cafepress.com/spankymm - for the Masturbating Monkey in you!
I think you misspelled EMACS
Hmm, nope:
(P)erfect (E)macs (R)e-writing (L)anguage
He got it right.
The problem there is that you don't recompile DSL (and I'm sure Puppy either since, iirc, it was initially based on DSL). To achieve such a small size the DSL team compiles all of the source, including the many patches that are probably required, and release each version as-is in binary format. Though it may be possible to speed up the boot process by tweaking the init scripts it probably wouldn't be worth it since all of the software involved has been compiled for size, not speed, and the DSL team has added lots of their own init scripts to handle the various boot methods it supports.
Along the lines of using a DSL like system though would be perhaps to use an older version of Debian, say Sarge or something.
"What if I got hit by lightning while walking with an umbrella? Ban umbrellas! Fight the menace of lightning!" Doctorow
in theory, in theory, in theory.....
You say that a lot. He's not looking for something that works "in theory", but something that "actually works" in the real world.
I'm sure your suggestion is really, really awesome, "in theory". Unfortunately, there's a huge difference between the drawing board and actual application.
You do realize that simply having a PSU capable of supporting 250W is not the same thing as actually drawing 250W, right?
Or are you still learning?
And a newish VIA mini-ITX board costs how much?
Look, it seems most people here would just like to see the guy get a new computer, so why not chip in and send him a crisp twenty.
"What if I got hit by lightning while walking with an umbrella? Ban umbrellas! Fight the menace of lightning!" Doctorow
confession:
I have a IBM PC with a flip top case.
It is just too cool to get rid of.
More to the point, what is their favourite colour, and what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I have personally seen the kernel portion of a boot on an embedded board reduced to 186 milliseconds, using aggressive techniques such as Execute-in-Place.
For user space, customize your init scripts (actually, dump your init scripts in favor of one compiled /sbin/init binary).
In the x86 space, with legacy hardware, I think the thing that will give you the most problem is BIOS. I know of products with custom code that replaces BIOS, that load the kernel from ROM in under 150 milliseconds. But that's probably more effort than you are interested in. You may want to check out what options are available in your current (legacy) BIOS for skipping things like the POST test, etc.
Porn more than likely.
Since he said this is for company computers, you'd think that for porn "fast power-off times" would be more important than "fast boot times". But that doesn't seem like as much of a challenge now, does it?
John
In that case, can't get much faster than Grub. People will tell you it's a bootloader, but it has cat, so it must be an OS!
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
African or European?
Of course I didn't RTFA... why would I do that? You really are new here aren't you? Don't let my UID fool you.
Why do good posts like this so often get modded badly, while FALSE posts like those contradicting it get modded insightful.
Read:
"Splashtop is preinstalled on the hard drive or in the on-board Flash memory of new PCs and motherboards by their manufacturers. Splashtop is a software-only solution that requires no additional hardware. A small component of Splashtop is embedded in the BIOS of the PC - that's the part that runs as soon as you press the power button."
This should make it obvious, along with the couple intelligent posters who noted that it can boot from an HD.
Maybe Slashdot needs to start restricting mod points to those who aren't idiots?
Yes, a great choice but do you know any good text editor that would run on it?
Windows 98 is okay but DOS is too old? Eh?
First, we have NO idea what you actually want. Are these going to be running dumb terminals, displays, "embedded device" roles, what? What sort of machines are we talking about? What sort of budget do you consider acceptable?
Seriously, if you want things to boot THAT quick, you're either going to have to spend money (LinuxBIOS, replacing with ARM or other embedded devices etc.) or you're going to have to compromise (DOS or some other really-cut-down OS). FreeDOS is used in these sorts of things all the time, even for networking appliances with appropriate drivers loaded. People have FreeDOS MP3 players in place of their CD-players in their car. Virtually-instant to boot.
Back in the day, you could get an old DOS machine to boot really quickly if you optimised everything and cut out all the cruft (BIOS boot times were actually a large part of it, unfortunately, what with memory-checks, floppy-checks etc.) . Guess what, you won't get that same machine to boot any quicker today without replacing parts.
If you have minimal actual software requirements (i.e. they ain't doing anything fancy and need to boot REALLY fast), then you're looking at DOS. Otherwise you're looking at Linux (if you want to keep licensing, support, compatibility costs down) unless you want to buy XP licenses for them all. Wouldn't like to think what Windows 98 would work like in this on/off scenario. I suspect that it would start crashing out, hitting filesystem checks, etc. eventually no matter what you tried. And Windows 98 is SLOW to boot. Incredibly so. For a start, it loads DOS first and then kicks itself in after that!
After you've sorted the OS, if you're still struggling then you can look at things like LinuxBIOS (sorry, but that's the only way you'll speed up the BIOS boot times on older PC's but the chances are that it's just not supported for your chipset).
To be honest, from a power-saving perspective, just bin the lot (see if you can get a few quid for them first) and then buy some Gumstix or similar embedded board, Mini-ITX etc. You can literally leave something like that on 24/7 and not pull anywhere near the power you would draw with an old PC in one hour. And you can have them boot extremely fast and minimally.
Re-using old hardware is great. Expecting it to perform brilliantly isn't. Booting reliably into a powerful, full-featured OS in a handful of seconds *is* performing brilliantly. We couldn't do it back in the days of DOS devices with standard PC's, you aren't going to manage it now without making some cutbacks on your expectations. And then for about £50 each, you can get tiny, powerful, power-saving, fan-free, embedded ARM units with Linux that'll do anything you want.
You have unrealistic expectations.
maybe try to WINE notepad?
sigs... don't talk to me about sigs....
The problem there is that you don't recompile DSL (and I'm sure Puppy either since, iirc, it was initially based on DSL).
I'm guessing he meant recompile the kernel to match the specific hardware. There's no point waiting for the kernel to scan for every SCSI device ever made if you don't have any. Also you can build a non-modular kernel and avoid the need to run module update scripts and eliminate the initrd. You can generally save several seconds this way if you really know what you're doing.
In that case, can't get much faster than Grub. People will tell you it's a bootloader, but it has cat, so it must be an OS!
Well it *can* do pretty much everything DOS can (load stuff that actually does something), except it comes with a nicer editor and the bundled games are better.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
I've never seen a PC draw more than 5W in S4 or S5. Come to think of it, I've never even seen more than 5W in S3. And I've got some crappy cheap inefficient PSUs here. 10W would have to include a monitor in standby. 75W? that's just unbelievable.
....you'd think that for porn "fast power-off times" would be more important than "fast boot times".
That and replacing the CD drive with a tissue dispenser.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Only AMIGA.. makes it possible. Sing with me.... ohhhonly AMIGAAAAA... maaaakes it....
cat
I disagree.. he wants a complete OS/environment.
http://www.qnx.com/
you can get it's complete kit free nfor non commercial use. is INSANE FAST at booting if you do it right and is small.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
All well and good he wants to "save money" and re-use existing hardware, but changing an OS is going to mean a LOT of time, testing, and likely new software. The cost of this will FAR out shadow the costs of a new piece of compatible hardware...
Of course, before you can ask what OS to run, we might want to know what applications it's being used for... and why exactly would an application appliance be powered off? this obviously isn't a database that gets regular attention, or any kind of security device, backup system, or other management system. so...
I'm assuming we're talking about legacy apps here then. In that case, I'm CERTAIN you have idle space and CPU time on existing servers. Throw a VM in there, and use that. When idle (hibernate, wake on LAN) it should use no more energy that the host would be when idle by itself, and if that host is a machine that DOES have to be on 24/7, then you're effectively using 0 additional power. It will wake on LAN in 15-30 seconds, maybe faster, and can auto hibernate again when idle. Simple, clean, and as a bonus, you can move the old hardware to your DR or testing lab.
There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
Since he said this is for company computers, you'd think that for porn "fast power-off times" would be more important than "fast boot times". But that doesn't seem like as much of a challenge now, does it?
The company could be a sperm bank.
Bullish Machine Tzar