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Switching To Solar Power – One Month Later
ThinSkin writes "After an interesting article on solar panel installation for the home, Loyd Case at ExtremeTech has written a follow-up after about a month of normal use. Posting an $11.34 electric bill (roughly 3% of previous months), Loyd shares his experiences using solar power and how it can be fun for the geek, with computer monitoring services and power generation data. Of course, solar power isn't all fun and games, given the amount of required maintenance — even unpredictable maintenance, like wiping off accumulated ash from fires in Northern California."
Wait to winter time when there is less sun to see how much you save at that time.
trix are for kids mutherfucker!
That's right and responsible energy use is for adults. I like to see things like this, and as some might decry the amount of involvement one must provide to effectively commit to a project along similar lines. Though I personally think people (especially in the U.S.) could really benefit from having to be more involved in the production and usage of the energy they consume.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
money going towards assets rather than a simple debt. Would you rather own or rent?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Sounds like someone who threw money at a problem better handled by conservation.
Believe me, i LOVE solar, but solar works better when it isn't the only solution.
Simple fix, trade kwh for kwh until net zero is reached and then sell excess for wholesale. Of course you would do this on an estimated annual usage basis just like the 'budget' billing most power consumers have to prevent huge spikes in their bills during certain hot or cold months.
As for putting the power company out of business, I'm all for it. Whoever had the bright idea of privatizing a utility should be shot. Fundemental public services should not be privatized they should be public and operating in a fully transparent manner. Roads, Schools, Libraries, Utilities, and Health Care.
It sure will. Even in California or here in Florida you have fewer hours of sun in the winter. Since most people on solar are trying to live on far less energy than a human needs to be comfortable in order to utilize technology that simply isn't cost effective yet, I have no doubt they will be borrowing from the grid in winter.
On the other hand, unlike the northern states, power usage in these places is also reduced. In warm climate areas you stay inside in the summer to avoid the weather rather than the winter.
So this guy is using DC solar panels, converting it to AC with an inverter, and then using it primarily to power...a computer lab, which just convert it back to DC. There must be at least 50% loss in this. AC was designed for transmission lines, which run for miles.
When the distance from source to sink is measured in meters instead, wouldn't it make sense to avoid the inversion step, and just use a voltage stepdown transformer, keeping everything DC? You'd have to install DC power supplies into your computers. Do those even exist? Of course power not going to computers could be run into an inverter to power other household AC things...
I think the switch to local power generation may require the (re)invention of DC infrastructure for within the house.
-- Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
The panels the author referenced in the story are guaranteed to resist up to 1" hail falling at 52 MPH. But 1" is considered small in this part of the country - we routinely get tennis ball-sized or even larger chunks during storms, and they're falling a hell of a lot faster than 52 MPH. So some sort of robust shielding material as an add-on would be a necessity if I were to install these. Either that or the first thunderstorm we got would destroy a $50,000 investment.
No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
It's saving them money now. The value of the installation is added to the value of the home. If they ever sold the house, it would justifiably raise the asking price just like a pool, deck, or other improvement to the home.
expect the power company ensures that everyone has lights when possible. There is a lot of regulation there. The problem without that is that who is going to pay you back, who are you getting the power from, what prevents you from not giving power to some people. At the very least you have to have some organization there to paid and sell power.
Today it's hard to make solar actually pay for itself. At California's high-tier rates, it is possible, but still takes a lot of work.
He says he put in $36,000 and will save $3,300 per year in payments to the power company. Now the historical annual rate of return of an S&P 500 index fund is 11.3% over the last century, so $36K put there would return over $4,000 -- enough to pay the $3,300 to the grid, have $700 left over and of course, still keeping the principal. Compared to that, the panels are losing money each year and will never pay for themselves -- unless grid power goes up a lot.
And grid power might go up, but only so far. Because eventually the grid power hits the solar price, and the grid itself starts putting in solar sources at that price -- because it's cheaper.
Most solar installations lose money hand over fist outside of California's high priced tiers. Today, solar comes in about 20 cents/kwh (at more like a 6% interest rate, not the 11.3% rate of the stock market.)
Try this spreadsheet:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pWKShknjJFBt7sOTCJre_SQ&hl=en
To work out the real cost.
It's worse if you consider that at the true cost of the system before rebates -- $48K if I read right, it really loses money.
Now, I'm not saying it's not good to put in solar to be greener, or that the government shouldn't be providing subsidies to make this happen.
I just don't want people to use the wrong math to think they are saving money, when in fact they are spending more (for a purpose.)
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
My power company, like my phone company, is a coop. I'd like them to remain in business, thank you very much.
Then again, depending on your definition, a coop could be considered a 'public' company.
I don't read AC A human right
I think this is a long ways off, and I'd imagine that if this starts happening, they'd start installing more/bigger transmission infrastructure, rather than a voluntary-shutoff communications infrastructure. They may even increase their connection fees to do so. The power company wouldn't want all that power to go to waste.
Err, 240*200 = 48kW.
First off, if the solar constant changes by a factor of 4, this guy's wiring is going to be the least of your trouble. Second, NEC ampacity standards are for tolerable voltage drop, not wire overheating. A 200A-rated line will actually carry a lot more than 200A. Third, many of the newer electrical panels have a main breaker that everything goes through. They are thermal, so they don't care which direction the electricity is going through them. If not, the inverter will usually have an output breaker of its own. Fourth, the house itself is consuming a good fraction of the power it's generating.
Geez, what are you, some sort of communist?!
Who wants a working healthcare system when you can privatise it make a big budget surplus to spend on winning votes and create a huge mess that you can blame on your opposition once they're in office.
It's not like heathcare, power & water are vital services or anything...
Two Parts Swash, One Part Buckle
People in third world nations spend a MUCH higher proportion of their total work/income on securing food and energy than we do in the western world. If all you cared about was providing for your basic needs, you could work 10 hours a week, or just sit at home and collect welfare. There are many reasons why people work as much as they do, but the cost of energy has little to do with it. Most of us work because we either find enjoyment in the work itself, or because we want to splurge on luxuries, AND be able to make a statement about our earning ability. Why do you think guys buy expensive cars, and women like wearing flashy jewelry? Because the cost of electricity is so high that it's forcing everyone to buy shiny objects? Don't be a friggin' idiot.
Your ignorance of economic principles is truly mind-numbing.
The word "thinking" doesn't really belong in that sentence ....
By coincidence, today is the day I got my first yearly bill for my new photovoltaic system. Where I live (Orange County, CA, with Southern California Edison as my utility), people who have residential PV systems get billed yearly rather than monthly. A year is also pretty much the minimum amount of time for which you need data in order to find out how your system is performing, since both your energy production and your energy use fluctuate seasonally.
My bill for this year was $353.63. The system is nominally 4.4 kW, and cost $28k after rebate. It's covering about 90% of our use, which was almost exactly what we shot for -- if we produce more than we use over 12 months, they don't pay us for the excess.
People always want to know the number of years until the system pays for itself. Basically that's utterly impossible to predict. There's a reason that they exclude energy from the consumer price index -- it's because energy prices are extremely volatile. If the increased price of fossil fuels starts to be reflected in the cost of electricity, then I'm going to look like a financial genius. The other thing that's completely unknowable is how fast the technology will progress. If there's a breakthrough in technology five years from now, and the price of panels per kilowatt comes down by a factor of two, then I'll wish I'd waited. It's also kind of funny hearing the quick-buck psychological attitude a lot of Americans have toward investing money in something like this; from the way people talk, you'd think they were going to take that money that could have gone into photovoltaics and invest it in some kind of magical pixie dust that was guaranteed to pay a steady 20% annually until the end of time. And finally, beware of anyone making blanket statements about whether PV is ready for prime time or not. It completely depends on factors like the price of electricity in your area, which way your roof faces, your latitude, the amount of cloudy weather, and the amount of shade. PV is like Linux: it's ready for prime time for some people, and it's not ready for prime time for other people.
Find free books.
Prices need to come down to about a four year payoff before I'd be really interested.
Or prices can come up. Because let's face it, coal-generated electricity (the main alternative) is way too cheap. You're basically just paying for the cost of digging up the coal, plus the amortization of the infrastructure needed to convert it to electricity and transmit it to the user. The coal itself is basically free.
And why should it be? It's a finite resource. If we had to bid against our descendants for it, it wouldn't be free, it wouldn't even be cheap. Nor is the environmental cost of dumping all that carbon into the atmosphere a minor one.
Oops, here come the dittohead with their "there's no proof that" and their "you eat meat". Not in the mood. Going home now.
isn't civilization, and the fact that you think it is indicates a deeply flawed view of the world.
It still doesn't make sense to pay you the same rate that you pay them.
Consider the situation where you produce as much as you consume, but not at the same time. Imagine, for the sake of argument, that you produce lots of power during the day, and then use lots of power during the night, such that the two are equal. Your net power use is therefore 0, but you're pushing lots of electricity to the grid during the day and pulling a lot at night.
Should your bill be zero?
I would argue that it should not. The power company is still maintaining the transmission lines, is still running the generation plants that you rely on at night, and the electricity you're giving them is not going to completely make up for that. The power company in this case is acting as a middleman, in the good sense, in that they ensure that stuff gets to where it needs to be. Middlemen can only make money, and thus provide their service, if the producers charge less money than the consumers pay.
Now, it may very well make sense in a broader political sense to make the rates be the same in order to encourage exactly this sort of independent generating capacity, but from the limited point of view of the economics of electrical generation and distribution, the rates should not be equal.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
hahahahaha, oh man you can't be serious. We all know how effective the government has been at all of those things....
Well, hasn't it? The Roads, Libraries, and Utilities seem to be working just fine under government regulation, at least here in California. Schools are uneven -- some are very good (e.g. most public colleges and universities, and some elementary schools and high schools). Health Care is lousy, but it's the privatized portion that's lousy. The public portion (Medicare, etc) works as advertised.
I think some people are so deep into their cynicism about governmental incompetence that they rarely stop to check if their cynicism is borne out by the facts...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
The problem isn't a privatized utility. The problem is a privatized, unregulated utility that holds a monopoly. The power line going to my house should be tightly controlled, but I should be allowed to choose the entity that energizes that line.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
These particular panels were guaranteed to deliver 90% of their rated peak capacity for at the twelve year mark, and 80% at the 25 year mark.
I take it these panels were tested for 12 and 25 years?
But of course they weren't. These numbers are just "estimates" from accelerated aging tests, which may or may not be accurate. Besides, any public company will be more than happy to sell you a warranty that you can't file a claim on for 25 years. It's very similar to a child's gender prediction service - "if we are wrong you get your money back!" :-)
I am personally interested in energy generation, and I may elect soon to install solar or wind generator (I also live in California.) But so far solar requires considerable commitment of capital, as the guy did - not everyone has $50K just sitting around. Wind power, if wind is available, is much cheaper. One SkyStream unit produces about 2 kW at cost of $5,000 + tower ($3,000). You can have three wind generators, offering the same 6 kW, for $24K - even though the tower can be had for much cheaper if you are a ham and know towers. Wind is different from solar in fact that it is usually plentiful in winter in California, whereas solar is similarly plentiful in summer. If you live on a well illuminated hillside then one solar and one wind installation would be better, provided that you have enough land to meet the tower requirements (if it falls it must fall within your property, far enough from power lines etc.)
Well no, the price of electricity will drop until the supply balances out the demand. At a certain point, the price of electricity will be so cheap that it won't make economic sense to mount panels anymore. Basic economics!
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
They wage-slave away because they have to, not because they love working on the cardboard box assembly line. If their energy bills, car payments, house payments, food payments, etc, were all a fraction of what they currently pay, what would motivate them to work at Taco Bell or the cardboard box factory for more than 10 hours a week?
Like almost all humans, they would buy a bigger house, better food, and more toys until they needed to work more than 10 hours a week. People consume to the extent of their resources and then want just a little more.
Food is provided by nature for free, all we have to do is pay humans to plant the seeds, nurture the plants until they're ready for harvest, pick them, and transport them to market.
Yes. Likewise, gold is provided by nature for free. All we have to do is pay humans to dig it out of the ground and melt it into pleasing forms. Even computers are provided by nature for free, if you discount the human effort to gather and arrange various resources.
The problem with solar is the efficiency of conversion verses the the cost of production and maintenance.
While I think solar will eventually be the energy production method of choice it is still a poor choice for mass production. You have to take in the cost of making the panels/collectors, the cost to maintain an the waste generated during production of the panels and disposal once the panels reach the end of their lives.
Right now I think wind energy is the far better choice for mass production and while many find it distasteful and have an outright unreasoning dislike and fear of nuclear energy it is still the best option for backbone energy production when power plants are placed by recycling breeder reactors.
so i saved a few hundred dollars a year but had to spend 38K ????? what the hell is the point. PV can't ever replace base load power sources.
What you say is PV "can't ever" replace baseload power, but what you mean is this solar installation, installed at this cost level, won't replace baseload power.
Solar panel manufacturing is doubling roughly every 18 months. Prices are going to drop.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
.. people [/] could really benefit from having to be more involved in the production and usage of the energy they consume.
Every time I read that it becomes more profound.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Schools are not uneven, they're horrific. There are some gems in the rough. Even then, you're only grading based on how well those schools are doing. A better question is, what is the return on investment, and is there a better way to do it?
Second, roads. There are many private roads that work much better than public roads. Read some case studies. In addition, on the news today I heard that due to demand for gas going down due to high prices, the government is "running out of money" for road repairs, since it collects taxes from gas to pay for them.
Third, libraries. Wow. Score one for government? Nope, they are typically maintained by cities. I think when most people lambast 'government' they are speaking of the federal government.
Fourth, Utilities. How 'fine' were those utilities operating a few years ago when the government fucked up the de-regulation, only deregulating supply side, meaning the utilities were paying more for electricity but couldn't pass the cost on to the consumers. Blackouts. Rolling blackouts.
Healthcare. The reason the 'privatized' portion is lousy is due in large part to government regulations, restrictions, requirements, taxation, and lousy laws.
And these are your government 'successes.' Even if I accepted these as true, which I don't, they do not make up for the vast majority of waste, excess, and terrible management provided by the federal government for the remainder of services it attempts to provide, and the return on [forced] investment is abysmal, absolutely abysmal.
Some of us are deep into our cynicism for very good reason, and don't accept your view of the facts.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
I have to agree. Though I don't live in Alaska, I've found recently that there are other ways to pull less power from the grid than simply jumping to solar. My wife and I recently moved into a house from our apartment and even though we jumped up in space a number of things have helped keep the power down. The A/C unit is only a few years old, the windows are in great shape, we run ceiling fans if we're warm, the outside walls are all brick and well insulated, etc... Our nominal monthly bill (including "service fees") stays around $50. Over the last year it's topped out at $80, but also been as low as $30 a few months. I run a web server here as well. It's not especially high traffic, but it does quite well considering it's a 500Mhz Geode LX with mirrored 250GB drives pulling 30 watts total max. All that's left now is to move the lights over to LED's and get a solar powered attic fan to help out on hot days (which here in VA tend to have tons of sun)
Before the move, our apartment was on the second floor, with a A/C unit/Heat Pump from the 80's and our power bill was never less than $90 with most months during the winter and summer hitting $145.
Basically, just make sure you don't go over the top with everything and make informed power decisions. A few thousand dollar new A/C unit and some insulation may go a lot farther than a $50k solar array to help you save money.
-=JML=-
Personally, I prefer to be a well-rounded individual, with a broad and ever-expanding skillset. Too much specialization can be deadly, from a business standpoint. Just ask your local Haberdasher.
You seem to believe the marketers who are telling you that driving a $60,000 vehicle or drinking a $5 cup of coffee is improving your life.
It isn't.
The things you consider civilization are the most worthless parts of it. Clean water is going to be worth much more in one hundred years than your rusted SUV. Clean air will be worth more than your house that was built out of cheap wood and sheetrock, which will likely be demolished sixty years after it was built. The ability to grow food will be worth more than the electronics that will end up in the rubbish pile.
Because of our lifestyle decisions, we are now unable to meet the needs of our own infrastructure. Maybe you like living at the end of the leash held by the world's oil companies and nationalized dictatorships, but I think it's incredibly short sighted.
You see, there was a time in this country when sacrifice and conservatism were noble. When we pulled together to get out of the Great Depression, and pulled together to retool our economy for WWII, and pulled together to provide right for all of our citizens in the 60s and 70s. The "gloom-and-doomers" are the people who see problems and deal with them rather than sticking their heads in the sand.
Yes, I own a car, which gets only 30mpg. But I live four miles from where I work, and I bike there four out of five days every week. I recycle what I can even though it costs me money. I try to spend my money with companies that are good stewards of the environment, so if I have children, I can look them in the eye and tell them that I have saved some real wealth for them: the right to clean water, clear air, and a food supply that doesn't give them cancer.
Maybe you live far away from your job and mass transit isn't an option. Perhaps you do need to use an eight cylinder engine everywhere you go. But if you're going to ignore the very real problems our society is facing, you need to realize that you are that shithead who shows up to party but never buys any booze and never helps clean up. You are a douche bag, and everyone knows it and hates you. If you can live with that, then good for you.
First, a decade is little more than a spot in time - even in one human lifetime.
Even so, I wouldn't keep you from your nicely implemented private electric (never been to Australia before and don't know anyone from there so you get the benefit of the doubt), but you're in a country the size of the US with a population around the size of Florida's. Hardly comparable I'd say.
Having said that, you're right about the lack of public regulation on private business here. We've learned plenty of lessons on that over the years - particularly prior to World War II - but the memory hole is always hard at work so we're a lot more free-wheeling than we used to be. Yes the results are (still) mostly predictable.
Good luck.
-Matt
Schools are not uneven, they're horrific.
I'll agree on that one. A kid taking twelve years of science classes, and yet not being able to read or critique an experiment in science journals is terrible. But when they graduate not even knowing what a journal is, or how to create an experiment, that's just broken beyond imagining.
Everything will be taken away from you.
I almost want to agree with you but for the whole expression of, "Jack of all trades and master of none." I would rather have a broad educational background that supports a variety of trades but be considered an expert in my specific field of study, business, or employment. I see what you're saying, I think, but I really *do* want to have a specialty even if that specialty is a generic field of knowledge.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You know, that's why libertarians remind me of religious fanatics. If something good happens, it's always because the free market has managed to score a success. If something bad happens, why, sure, it's because of government interference. It doesn't matter what, where, and when, or what the real numbers are - as soon as someone says that, in practice, in known privatized industries certain inefficiencies are observed, a libertarian will immediately counter by, "Well they are still regulated to some extent, so what did you expect? It's all because of that pesky regulation!".
Well, those who want good healthcare I guess.
We have a "socialised" healthcare system here.
I can have extensive spinal surgery for $0 outlay.
My wife has had our two children in her very own private room for $0 outlay.
It may not be perfect, but I feel it's a heck of a lot better than the mess that's the USA healthcare system.
Two Parts Swash, One Part Buckle
No outlay.
This is just the level of ignorance politicians want you to have. Its how the income tax works so well. The people have been guided into thinking about their "take home pay". Never about what they make, in fact if you ask most people what they make you usually get take home.
Oh it costs ya a lot. If you bother to read any of the papers available about health care systems across the world it would open your eyes. This is another of those fantasy pitches where if its repeated enough times people will start to accept it. The problem is the biggest implementers of universal health care are stepping back because the costs are obscene and they are finding that when something is free or nearly free in appearance people tend to abuse it.
ZERO OUTLAY... damn, next your going to believe that the roads are free too.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
IBM makes me work 60 hours a week. You see, my employment is contingent on something called utilization. My target and tenure is such that I can't meet my target unless I work 60 hours a week.
IBM Makes you Work? MAKES you work? You make it sound like slavery. This is employment at will. You don't like their policies, pay, or heck, their cafeteria, then quit.
If you're still there and you are so displeased then you either are a fool for not finding a new job, or you can't find a new job because you are a fool.
I don't even need a paragraph to counter your post, just six words.
Enron. Even non-governments can be corrupt.
It's been a long time.
It's better that chickens don't make great pets, because they're tasty, and it's hard to eat a pet.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
[quote]You get all those libertarian fools thinking "Oh if the current big bad government is smaller, things would be wonderful".[/quote]
Actually, you shouldn't speak for Libertarians, because I think most libertarians would agree with your good/bad delineation. However let me ask you a simple question .....
Which is easier to control ... Big Bad Government or Small Bad Government?
The point of smaller being better isn't because of "good vs bad" it is because Smaller = less government = more freedom to change how it works.
The current monstrosity that is Governance today is wholly out of control, with little or no ability to make any sort of meaningful change. We are a gnat on the elephant's back, we may annoy it, but it isn't going to change because of us.
As for private vs public control, you are 100% right. I wish we had a governance that took issuing of corporate licences more seriously and would lock more of the short sighted, bad management class and toss them into pound me in the ass prison for their malfeasance, more often.
Stealing from a bank with a gun isn't nearly as violent as stealing from the same bank with dubious business practices. I think there should be a whole bunch of people thrown in jail over the current banking Mortgage scandal.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Oh come on. Is your head really that far up your ass? Your math was correct, your assumptions were far-fetched.
It cost him $36K (which really cost $50K, but let's say)
No, it really cost him $36k because that's how much he paid, so let's say $36k. You act like you are doing people a favor by using the real numbers.
So it'll take 109 months to get back the money, or 9 years, not adjusting for inflation and investment opportunity cost.
Investment opportunity cost? He's making an investment with it! What opportunity cost do you think he's losing out on?
Let's say that brings it up to 12 years.
Why the hell would you say that? And at 9 years that's an investment with an APR return of approximately 11%. Better than any savings account (Except some 401k's) and a hell of a lot better than just about any other item you can buy.
Not including maintenance and repairs. It might even need complete replacement at that point. At 50K, which is the real cost, we're talking more like 16-18 years.
No, $36k is the 'real' cost because that's how much he really paid.
Also, if you'd RTFA, you would have seen:
The Sunpower panels were appealing, partly because they're over 18% efficient, and partly for another reason: My wife's company, though an arrangement with Sunpower, offered an additional rebate. These particular panels were guaranteed to deliver 90% of their rated peak capacity for at the twelve year mark, and 80% at the 25 year mark. The overall installation would be simpler, too, requiring a single, 7KW inverter; both of the other bids would have required two inverters.
Rendering your supposed 'replacement cost' invalid.
Your math was fine. Your logic was not.
Keeping in mind that 90% of the people who invest vast sums as early adopters "rake in" nothing but overpriced experimental toys, I again thank you. If you find a way to make money off of it, more power to you, but recognize that almost everyone who invests early on in emerging tech (especially when competing versions or routes to the same end are available) gets nothing but the fun of trying out something earlier than other people.
Be it CD burners, DVD burners, VCRs, LCD monitors, televisions, or any other tech you like, ask most of the people who bought the first-gen if what they got matched the cost:benefit ratio of the fourth, fifth, or tenth generation.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."