Slashdot Mirror


ABA Judges Get an Earful About RIAA Litigations

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "I was afforded the opportunity to write for a slightly different audience — the judges who belong to the Judicial Division of the American Bar Association. I was invited by the The Judges Journal, their quarterly publication, to do a piece on the RIAA litigations for the ABA's Summer 2008 'Equal Access to Justice' issue. What I came up with was 'Large Recording Companies vs. The Defenseless: Some Common Sense Solutions to the Challenges of the RIAA Litigations,' in which I describe the unfairness of these cases and make 15 suggestions as to how the courts could level the playing field. I'm hoping the judges mod my article '+5 Insightful,' but I'd settle for '+3 Informative.' Here is the actual article (PDF). (If anyone out there can send me a decent HTML version of it, I'll run that one up the flagpole as well.)" Wired is helping to spread the word on Ray's article.

137 of 349 comments (clear)

  1. Queue RIAA press release... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    about the unfairness of the article in three, two...

  2. All that needs to be said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are a hero.

    1. Re:All that needs to be said by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 3, Funny

      He gets paid to submit articles to Slashdot?

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    2. Re:All that needs to be said by Maximalist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, everybody has to make money. As a lawyer who has had a couple of RIAA cases referred my way, I can honestly say that there is no upside at all to taking the cases and doing any fighting in court. The costs of doing discovery and filing responses in the court will add up quickly enough that the defendants better option is just to pay the settlement and be done with it.

      Even if there was a chance that the defendant would prevail, they'd be in a deeper hole than if they settled. And the RIAA has demonstrated that they'll fight an award of attorney's fees for a defendant, making any eventual payout years down the pike.

      If I didn't have student loans that needed regular payments, and the ordinary costs of living, taking on one of these cases and fighting tooth and nail seems like a worthwhile thing to do. But I can't afford to do it.

      We should be glad that NYCL is fighting this fight, and God bless whoever is paying him (or if he's been successful enough in his practice up to this point to be bankrolling it himself.)

    3. Re:All that needs to be said by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Let us not be too quick to deify him."

      Quick? NYCL has been posting on this stuff for years and is by far the most informative voice on slashdot for this type of thing - I can only assume you are a new AC around here.

      It appears that he's getting paid for it.

      Define "it". Also regardless of wether he is paid for "it", he has done far more than just sit on slashdot and bitch about the MAFIAA like the rest of us do.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    4. Re:All that needs to be said by notrandomly · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, RIAA's lawsuits are indeed frivolous, but people like the one you are responding to and Ray Beckerman are helping people who are victims of RIAA's nuisance lawsuits.

    5. Re:All that needs to be said by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Funny

      He gets paid to submit articles to Slashdot?

      Don't I wish.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    6. Re:All that needs to be said by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      RTFA. He's mostly working for free on these RIAA cases. I, for one, salute his efforts.

      Am I the only one who notices a resemblance between NYCL's photo (in TFA) and Isaac Asimov? If Ray grew a set of insane giant sideburns he'd be a ringer for Asimov!

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    7. Re:All that needs to be said by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      isnt that the definition of a nuisance lawsuit?

      Once you add in that the likelihood that the RIAA would prevail if it did go to trial is highly questionable, then yes it is!

      The evidence suggests strongly that their intent is to intimidate and shake down rather than to have a genuine wrong righted.

    8. Re:All that needs to be said by wizbit · · Score: 2, Informative

      The music industry's cases are rarely frivolous

      Really? Here's a quote FTFA:
      "In November 2004, the RIAA was ordered "to file future cases of this nature against one defendant at a time." And yet in 2008 it continues the practice of deliberate misjoinder, seemingly disregarding the joint order from Austin, Texas. District of Maine Magistrate Judge Kravchuk was so troubled by the false statements the plaintiffs had made in order to justify joinder that she recommended to the district judge that he order plaintiffs to show cause why they should not be subject to Rule 11 sanctions."

      In other words, they use deplorable tactics (suing a John Doe in a state your ISP is located, but maybe hundreds/thousands miles from you) to discover from your ISP your IP address' account owner's identity, and dismiss the claim, later filing against you personally. Worse, they attempt to claim that their suits against dozens/hundreds of John Does are inseparably related (joinder). This is the definition of "frivolous" and even though they were strongly warned against it, they continue to do it over 4 years later.

      Rule 11 sanctions, btw, deal with pleadings made for an improper purpose or frivolous arguments.

      There's always a genuine case of copyright infringement that starts the case

      Sharing the files is the act of someone at the account holder's IP address. To claim somebody infringed on copyright, you generally need to prove a real, live defendant, you know, did so. You actually need to collect this evidence in a way that is admissible according to Daubert standards, but in fact the RIAA "investigators" are rarely deposed - and of course, on who actually was admitted that none of his evidence collection was done in accordance w/ Daubert.

      The RIAA meanwhile doesn't care - they deluge the defendant with discovery motions until they are ordered to stop (if that happens). You can understand why the vast, vast majority of defendants have been ex parte settlements and that a small minority even have the means to defend themselves appropriately.

    9. Re:All that needs to be said by KGIII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All to well, including spending some time in the local bars doing soundwork for various musicians and then having the chance to see the fees that they paid to just have cover tuned played.

      I am working on getting a post or two formatted (actually concerning your client and your other post) as we speak. So I'm pressed for time and you'll have to get the short version.

      Basically we were offered a fairly decent sum of cash to go down the coast with the "Further Festival" starters. Geffin paid for that - no one else paid us back then. The contract was the carrot at the end of the stick.

      We were enticed, if you will, to perform. We had a great time and made some decent cash. At the end of it all was our dreams. This was our second attempt.

      The contract basically said that they owned us. I was all for signing it so I'm not saying I was the right one here, I'm saying I was the wrong one. Our cut was to be on a sliding scale if and when we produced what we were told we could produce and our "product" had to be vetted through Geffin.

      The terms I use aren't the right ones but I'll try to give the gist of it...

      If we managed to reach a point where we were self sustaining and our actions were able to be considered public enough or popular enough we were financially liable in a percentage. As in, as it was explained to me by Pete who was actually a law student at one point but he mostly drank beer, if we got popular and actually made money and one of us did something stupid that some arbitrary old man decided was too immoral and thus cost the company potential revenue we'd get a lesser percentage.

      So, yeah... From that view I understand. I also don't like the idea of someone saying my work has no value either so it is a conflict for me. I guess I agree with copyright within the scope of the intended meaning but not as it is being abused. Fortunately geeking and guitars went along well with each other so now that the weekend is here I'll send your client some and I'll do some posting around.

      You are fighting against tyrants who have controlled and throttled the industry for years from either direction and, from an artistic view, made an impossible barrier to entry until recently and still might be considered impossible if the goal is financial benefit. If we go back to the 1950's I wonder who kept who alive... Was it the FCC that kept them intact or was it the recording industry who enabled the FCC to keep going past their expiration date?

      I shall return.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  3. Thank you for your efforts. by jx100 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They are greatly appreciated.

    1. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by pickyouupatnine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That incidentally, might be the best you'll get out of a panel if you made them look stupid at any point in that article.

      --
      _Vishal www.squad9.com
    2. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by countSudoku() · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'll second that! I'll never need this info personally, but feel this is for a greater good. The voice of NYCL is a breath of fresh air compared to the hostile assholes who are waging a war on potential customers and anyone who gets in their way. To bring some fairness to the people who are getting railroaded by the RIAA and their draconian tactics is a very, very good thing. Doing something helpful for someone you may never meet is commendable.

      --
      This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
    3. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by bughunter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed - a fantastic piece. NYCL is the internet MVP of the day.

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    4. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'll second that! I'll never need this info personally, but feel this is for a greater good. The voice of NYCL is a breath of fresh air compared to the hostile assholes who are waging a war on potential customers and anyone who gets in their way. To bring some fairness to the people who are getting railroaded by the RIAA and their draconian tactics is a very, very good thing. Doing something helpful for someone you may never meet is commendable.

      Thank you, count.

      I'm a Sudoku fan myself.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    5. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by PunkOfLinux · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think we need a -1 asshole option

      Honestly, this doesn't make it 'easier' to do, this makes it more just to people. Regardless of your position on downloading music, you can't sanely argue that it's right that someone pays upwards of 2000 times what the damage is; there is no 'deterrence' feature to these rulings, as it is a civil matter. In fact, the only point of such rulings is retribution and punishment; there is no legal basis, as far as I am aware, for allowing civil rulings to include a deterrence factor.

    6. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Funny

      music thieves and the large Internet criminal element do thank you, NewYorkCountryLawyer

      Is that you, MediaSentry? I didn't know the internet criminal element were posting in this thread.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    7. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by dr_dank · · Score: 2, Funny

      Never mind that, did they give you free tickets to Mamma Mia?

      --
      Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
    8. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by tobiasly · · Score: 2, Funny

      Never mind that, did they give you free tickets to Mamma Mia?

      What does free tickets have to do with anything? He's simply explaining to them: there's another side to the RIAA's arguments, and I'd like to articulate it, if you'll take a chance on me.

    9. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Speare · · Score: 5, Interesting
      My favorite bit of advice,

      Some courts have made pronouncements to the effect that the court does not "understand the technology" well enough to make the dismissal determination, and that therefore the determination should be made after completion of pretrial discovery. I submit that, if the court does not understand the technology well enough, it means that the plaintiffs have not pled their claim well enough and their complaint should be dismissed.

      Thanks, NYCL.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    10. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'll second that! I'll never need this info personally...

      Don't be so confident about that, since many of the people being sued are no more guilty than you.

    11. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by StormReaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I'll never need this info personally, but feel this is for a greater good."

      Don't be too sure. Remember that the RIAA has sued people who have never even used a computer. In America, just because you're not guilty doesn't mean you won't have to defend yourself.

    12. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Merls+the+Sneaky · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is exactly what they do, ever heard of shoplifting?

    13. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would say the larger the settlement the less deterent it is.

      If I were charged $50 per time getting caught I would probably be petrified. If I were charged $10,000,000,000 per time I would just view it like dieing "hopefully it won't happen but if it does it's pretty much over."

      The lower the fine the more likely they are to be able to pass sweeping legislation which makes it easier to charge people. If downloading were like parking tickets and as easily enforceable then I think you see a much larger drop in piracy than threatening to sue millions of dollars.

      It's like "disaster syndrome" your brain can't quantify the damages so it just gives up and ignores it all together. My brain can perfectly understand $50 and its effect on my wallet.

    14. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by peas_n_carrots · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your analogy is lacking. The music industry's business model is designed to give almost all the money to the labels, not the musicians. Why should consumers continue to pay middlemen? There was a time before labels, when music was made by anyone willing to pick up an instrument, it was free, and people enjoyed it. Packaging that music, riding on the backs of musicians and pocketing all the money is the real crime. Middlemen add little or no value, and should be compensated proportionately (little or nothing).

      It's always entertaining to see RIAA trolling Slashdot.

    15. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Danse · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Never want to see RIAA again? Then don't steal the dream - don't steal the music. Buy your "tunes" at a reputable record store instead of just stealing them off the Internet.

      The RIAA and other entertainment lobbyists have been stealing from the public on a massive scale for decades. Beyond the repeated price-fixing convictions (which they never seem to get punished for), they've been taking works that should have become public domain and extending the duration of their monopoly rights over them, even retroactively so that the public never gets any return on the copyright bargain in their lifetime. You could wrap all those industry execs in bacon and drag them through an alligator moat and nobody would shed a tear.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    16. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No more? They're less guilty. He at least has a computer, he could at least somehow do it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Funny

      Shed a tear? I'd pay for the bacon!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by gd2shoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My favorite passage is related to yours.

      Allow me to observe that if the court and the court's law clerks and law secretaries (many of whom are "digital natives") do not understand the case, that may be a sign that the plaintiff has none.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    19. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by NormalVisual · · Score: 4, Insightful

      they've been taking works that should have become public domain and extending the duration of their monopoly rights over them

      And unlike the folks that claim that copyright infringment = theft, this *really is* theft (i.e., something taken from people that they are unable to use as a result) on a massive scale.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    20. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      Child rapists and murderers get a presumption of innocence and a penalty that relates to the actual harm done. They also get the support of the state in their defence.

    21. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by penix1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ummm...Then how do you explain this:

      http://p2pnet.net/story/3773

      In its biggest cock-up yet, the Big Music cartel's RIAA has sued a dead woman who didn't even own a computer....

      A choice line form that same article...

      "I am pretty sure she is not going to leave Greenwood Memorial Park (where she is buried) to attend the hearing,"

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    22. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by umghhh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The case here is not of downloaders getting punishment. The case is that people at large can get punished bacause they cannot afford the the costs of defense and/or are not even informed a case is brought up against them.
      If that is so than the system in which such injustice is possible is not much different from one in which execution squads are sent out every time e.g. somebody mentions human rights or unisons or whatever. This has nothing to do with the question of downloaders being punished or not.

    23. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not so. Artists who sell 50,000 albums direct to the public can make more money than if they sold 500,000 albums through a record label.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    24. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't know... I don't think alligators would enjoy eating undead blood-sucking vampires.

      If an alligator were to unwittingly swallow an RIAA lawyer, he would definitely spit it back; if alligators can spit. If they can't spit, well..... you know.... they'd regurgitate.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    25. Re:Thank you for your efforts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I read your article, all I can say is it's great.

      It's fair to say that RIAA does sometimes target the right people. However, our entire court system is not supposed to be based on the presumption of guilt.

      It can also be argued that we aren't putting people in jail. However, that's a lie. If I am forced to pay even $2,000 that's a pretty big chunk of my yearly discretionary spending. Perhaps all. I'm middle class. I can't fathom what happens if the family income is lower income. I know some places that could be 6 months rent (or more).

      Can you imagine someone who can't afford rent because of an unproven accusation and a court system that assumes you are guilty.

      Forgetting that though, I charge that RIAA has singlehandedly hurt all Americans.

      How many people have turned off their home wifi access or encrypted it rather than leaving it open as a direct result of the RIAA lawsuits and the implications that they give.

      My wife grew up in a bad neighborhood in Flint Michigan. Someone was stabbed to death on her front yard. No one assumed that she or any member of her family had killed that person and left them laying there. No, of course the police asked if they saw or heard anything. However, they were never brought to court and told that since the murder occurred on their property that they would be tried for the murder, much less that the Judge and prosecutor have met, discussed the case, found them guilty, and are dispatching the police to haul them off to the electric chair for execution.

      Can you imagine the kind of world we would live in if that was the case?

      I turned off open access wifi thanks to the RIAA and our judges not protecting us with common sense.

      Is it the end of the world? No, of course not but it is less friendly. Lock your doors. Lock your cars. Close your windows. Build a fence. Close off your WIFI.

      I miss my neighborhood growing up. Very few neighbors had fences, kids played baseball on the streets, Moms and Dads would shout "It's dinner time!"

      We've lost that in most places. We have our little me centered looking out for ourselves only world. It's sick and RIAA is contributing to it.

      So thank you. Thank you for standing up and saying....look let some common sense prevail.

      These RIAA victims are just ordinary people that are living their life doing ordinary things. Some bits of information flying through the Internet don't justify ruining even a single day of a presumed innocent ordinary persons day.

      I just barely purchase any music now. I have hundreds of CD's but most of them were bought over a decade ago.

      I can listen to the music free on the radio and record it straight to my MP3 player. I can listen to the music free online at places like Pandora.

      Their music isn't worth $2000. They sell their licenses to play anything you want to churches, radio stations, bowling allies, and roller skating rinks for a fraction of that.

      So sir, you have my respect and appreciation.

  4. Damn it! by geekoid · · Score: 4, Funny

    That article has a picture of you. Do you know what that means? It means it's harder to make snarky comments. Now my replies need to be thought out!

    I mean, you look like one of us(except for the monkey suit).

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Damn it! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That article has a picture of you. Do you know what that means? It means it's harder to make snarky comments.

      No problem. You can keep on making snarky comments.

      Now my replies need to be thought out!

      Don't start on my account.

      I mean, you look like one of us

      I am one of you.

      (except for the monkey suit).

      I only wear the monkey suit for special events such as funerals, bar mitzvahs, and court appearances. I.e., just like you.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    2. Re:Damn it! by G00F · · Score: 4, Funny

      "I only wear the monkey suit for special events such as funerals, bar mitzvahs, and court appearances. I.e., just like you."

      Eh, I dunno, the last bar mitzvah I went to, I dressed like a renaissance knight.

      --
      The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
    3. Re:Damn it! by RobBebop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And a sense of humor, as well?

      Ray - Not only do you do great things for "The People", but I believe your work is helping to fix the typical feeling of mistrust that most Americans have for lawyers.

      I, for one, feel better knowing that not all lawyers are as portrayed in the movies.

      And I am glad you can make jokes about yourself. I have long believed that this ability is one of the more noble qualities that a person can have... and somebody who can pull it off well is worthy of a great deal of respect.

      Thank you.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    4. Re:Damn it! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Funny

      "I only wear the monkey suit for special events such as funerals, bar mitzvahs, and court appearances. I.e., just like you."

      Eh, I dunno, the last bar mitzvah I went to, I dressed like a renaissance knight.

      Well I'm not a trend-setter like you.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    5. Re:Damn it! by ZackZero · · Score: 4, Funny
    6. Re:Damn it! by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe your work is helping to fix the typical feeling of mistrust that most Americans have for lawyers.

      Actually, the one thing that fixes "the typical feeling of mistrust that most Americans have for lawyers" is needing one yourself. The lawyers that took care of my divorce and bankrupcy were intelligent, personable, dedicated, and well worth what I paid them.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    7. Re:Damn it! by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'll have you know I don't even own a monkey suit. :-) The dearly departed don't care what you wear, they're dead. I've never been to a bar mitzvah. For my only court appearance so far, I wore shorts and a T-shirt.

      OK OK.

      I take back the part about "just like you".

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  5. Wow by Sparr0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Awesome read. I wish this was required material for any judge presiding over the cases in question. I also wish for a pony.

    1. Re:Wow by H0p313ss · · Score: 3, Funny

      I also wish for a pony.

      And blackjack!

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    2. Re:Wow by MrCreosote · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you have hookers, why screw the pony?

      Unless...

      --
      MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
  6. you're doing it wrong by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Funny

    The appropriate salutation is "a/s/l?"

    1. Re:you're doing it wrong by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 3, Funny

      and the appropriate answer is 12/f/cf

    2. Re:you're doing it wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      What's a 12 year old girl doing in center field?

    3. Re:you're doing it wrong by martinw89 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Lawyering, NewYorkCountry style.

    4. Re:you're doing it wrong by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, no, she's in Core Foundation. Running in loops.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  7. Re:Of all 3 branches by langelgjm · · Score: 4, Informative

    FYI, the Justice Department != the judicial branch. In fact, the Justice Department is and has been under a lot of scrutiny because of its political bias.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
  8. Judges, Justices, or Department of Justice? by alexhmit01 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Department of Justice (DOJ) is an executive branch department (Wikipedia Entry). The judicial system is made up of Judges at most levels, and justices are the supreme court level. To laymen, that distinction it one of terminology, not job (though they don't judge cases the same way a trial court does, and the terms have some meaning.

    1. Re:Judges, Justices, or Department of Justice? by Artifakt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A few of the Supreme Court appointees have actually been people without law degrees, and some more have been people who didn't actually first serve as judges in any lesser capacity. In fact, it used to be fairly common for the president of that time to appoint former governors or cabinet members to the court, and some of these had never practiced law, either from the bench or in front of it. What's surprising is that during those times the SCOTUS has been led by someone who wasn't ever a trial lawyer, they dealt with, on average, about 35% more cases per session, and whenever at least one justice wasn't, about 20% more.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  9. Great paper, still reading... by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 3, Informative

    However, need to correct a very important typo...you have misspelled the www.groklaw.net web address (you have growklaw at least once in the paper).

    --
    The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
    1. Re:Great paper, still reading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I started reading and then a question occurred to me. In the Napster days you found someone with a song and downloaded it. With a torrent, you are getting a chunk. I don't see the chunk as having any copyright since you need to assemble the file with the header to listen / view it. IANAL, To prosecute someone, wouldn't you have to prove that you got each chunk from the same computer / person? Just because someone is seeding a file doesn't mean that he is supplying all of the pieces to you to recreate / duplicate a copyrighted work. Without the whole file it's just a bunch of semi random bits.

      It seems to me that a little defense could go a long way. To bad that defense will cost you your house. Oh yeah, it's the US (I'm in Canada). You guys are walking away from your homes anyway. Just give your keys to the RIAA and say thanks for the tunes and move to Canada.

    2. Re:Great paper, still reading... by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OK. Your immediate question would seem to have a parallel in books and similar things. There are any number of books, bibles, collections and whatnot that include some sort of language up front that says something to the effect that you may copy and use up to so many words.

      Lemme look... Yup. NIV states the following:

      The NIV text may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio), up to and inclusive of five hundred (500) verses without express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses quoted do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for 25 percent or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted.
      Notice of copyright must appear...

      So... If what you're suggesting has any validity, it would seem to undercut the ability to provide this provision. That is, why would anyone need to care? It would seem the distribution (not clear about downloading) of the chunk would still violate copyright. And remember, these days with P2P apps, most folk are uploading and downloading the same file simultaneously.

      Now, having said that, a much more interesting angle of your question is how anyone would handle your original question were it recast a bit...

      For example, if I scramble the tar out of the original file and parse it into scrambled chunks and provide a program to put it back together. All these chunks and the program are similarly distributed across a typical P2P application. Now, who's doing what that violates copyright?

      If I take a bunch of these chunks and turn them into bitmaps, png files or whatnot and distribute these, then what? Things get much, much more interesting in a digital age where the same byte-stream could theoretically be any number of things. If I download the first billion digits of pi and this somehow includes the byte stream of a copyrighted song, has anyone violated the derivative works of copyright?

    3. Re:Great paper, still reading... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even better yet, I can say for certain that for each video, there is an exact number assigned to it. A hundred byte file has a number not exceeding 2^800.

      This number grows rather large when we talk about 600MB files. However, these numbers are either prime, or composed of multiples of prime. Aside the difficulty of factoring out primes in big numbers, would trading the primes and frequency violate copyright?

      Or worse yet, we can describe film data as a 3d graph. If we approximate the set of equations, we can create a "close enough" set of pictures that could be indistinguishable. Would disseminating these equations violate copyright?

      --
    4. Re:Great paper, still reading... by honkycat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A statement like that in the NIV can give you rights in excess of fair use, but cannot ever curtail your fair use rights. Copyright law is what it is. A statement like that in a bible is probably intended as something of a "gift" to its users in the sense that part of the purpose of a bible is to quote/discuss in services/etc. No one needs to think twice about quoting it within that guideline. But, it doesn't necessarily mean that going outside those bounds is actually not permitted, that'd depend on the legal interpretation.

      That said, I think the grandparent poster's idea, while it might work from a very letter-of-the-law standpoint, probably *shouldn't* work if you agree with the basic concept of copyright. At some point, someone creates something that causes a copy of the bits to be reassembled into a copy of the copyrighted work and someone initiates that process. There is a guilty party or parties in that process no matter how thinly you slice it -- either as direct infringement or conspiracy to do so.

      That said, I don't necessarily think it *should* be illegal to do this. When it starts becoming necessary to go to enormous technical lengths to prevent people from doing things, I think that's a sign that perhaps it's not practical for it to be illegal in the first place...

  10. Re:Of all 3 branches by langelgjm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, but the Department of Justice is not a branch of the government. It is a part of the executive branch. Your talk of justices indicates to me that you are thinking of the judicial branch, which, as I said, is not the same as the Department of Justice.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
  11. judges by arbiter1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    a lot of what it comes down to, is a lot of the judges are older people that don't know much about computers cept enough to use one for the basics then you get a so-called "expert" to use fancy terms and they judge don't have a clue what most it means and get slammed. Other part is most the defendant's can't afford to fight a multi-billion dollar company and get short shit end of the stick

  12. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Funny

    Saw your pic. I thought you were younger!

    I used to be much younger. But that was quite a while ago.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  13. Question for NYCL... by GeneralEmergency · · Score: 4, Interesting

    --Validity of Plaintiffs' Copyright Infringement Claim--
    "Without actual distribution copies . . . there is no violation distribution right."
    --William F. Patry, Patry Copyright, 2007.25

    I assume that MediaSentry has some sort of signed agreement or license that gives the copies that they make in the course of thier "investigations-ha-ha-ha" the status of "authorized duplications". Without such a license or assignment of duplication rights, MediaSentry would be guilty of infringement themselves, would they not?

    If said licenses or assignments do in fact exist, why can the "evidence" of the download transaction (a copy being made) be termed an act of "Unauthorized Distribution" if the party actively making the copy is explicitly "authorized" to make said copies?

       

    --
    "A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
    GeneralEmergency
    1. Re:Question for NYCL... by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My understanding is that the RIAA downloads from their victims, then sues them for making those files available.

      That's exactly right. Pretty pathetic, isn't it?

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    2. Re:Question for NYCL... by dirk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It doesn't matter if MediaSentry is allowed to make copies, the person uploading the file still does not have permission to distribute the file. It doesn't matter who they are distributing to, it matters that they can't legally distribute the file. Unless the copyright holder explicitly gives me permission to distribute the file, I can't legally make a copy for anyone, even if they can legally have or make a copy.

      --

      "Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
    3. Re:Question for NYCL... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, P2P doesn't require uploading. I can download just fine from behind a firewall that prevents anybody else from downloading from me. See "leech".

    4. Re:Question for NYCL... by jd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't that like muggers suing their victims for having their money in the wrong currency?

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    5. Re:Question for NYCL... by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Informative

      --Validity of Plaintiffs' Copyright Infringement Claim-- "Without actual distribution copies . . . there is no violation distribution right." --William F. Patry, Patry Copyright, 2007.25 I assume that MediaSentry has some sort of signed agreement or license that gives the copies that they make in the course of thier "investigations-ha-ha-ha" the status of "authorized duplications". Without such a license or assignment of duplication rights, MediaSentry would be guilty of infringement themselves, would they not? If said licenses or assignments do in fact exist, why can the "evidence" of the download transaction (a copy being made) be termed an act of "Unauthorized Distribution" if the party actively making the copy is explicitly "authorized" to make said copies?

      1. It's not a "distribution".

      2. It's not "unauthorized".

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    6. Re:Question for NYCL... by o0z3 · · Score: 2, Funny

      A bash quote comes to mind :)

      #104052

      -NES- lol
      -NES- I download something from Napster
      -NES- And the same guy I downloaded it from starts downloading it from me when I'm done
      -NES- I message him and say "What are you doing? I just got that from you"
      -NES- "getting my song back fucker"

      bash.org

  14. Obligatory.... by kipin · · Score: 4, Informative

    A torrent link to the pdf can be found here!

    --
    If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
  15. Admissable by hellwig · · Score: 5, Interesting

    IANAL, so when I read the 15 common-sense suggestions a lot of them seemed to me to be things the Judge should be doing anyway (hence the common-sense part). It sounds like because the defendant isn't able to hire a fully-competant lawyer who would be able to request these things automatically, the judges are allowing the over-paid RIAA lawyers to subvert basic court procedure, at the cost of justice for the defendant. I assume that when Ray is defending someone against the RIAA, he is following his own suggestions.

    This is the problem with the court systems in America. We use things like precident instead of common sense. Judges are too scared to make decisions that aren't supported by the actions of other judges (though someone had the balls to set the precident in the first place). Common lawyers are too inept or lack proper experience to understand the rights that their clients have as defendants in a civil suit (the old movie cliche of a worthless public defender comes to mind here).

    I understand common-sense is something most people don't have anymore, but when my life or livelyhood is at stake, I would hope the person defending me has a little.

    --
    Eggs
    Milk
    Bread
    Cat Litter
    Soda
    ...
    1. Re:Admissable by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Informative

      We use things like precident instead of common sense

      For better or worse that is our legal system. The roots go back almost 1000 years.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

    2. Re:Admissable by Vancorps · · Score: 2, Informative

      I had a similar experience as a juror. It was a kidnapping case where the prosecutor overreached for a charge. Ultimately we all thought the guy was as ass but there simply wasn't enough evidence, the public defender did a fantastic job in pointing out the holes in the prosecution.

    3. Re:Admissable by NormalVisual · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In some localities, attorneys in private practice serve as public defenders for a certain number of cases per year as a required public service, so it's probably not as rare as you'd think that there are PDs that actually know what they're doing.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  16. God Bless Ray Beckerman by LVSlushdat · · Score: 3

    All I want to say is God Bless you, Ray Beckerman.. You are the lone voice crying in the wilderness against the RIAA/MPAA... May you continue fighting the good fight!!

    --
    THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    1. Re:God Bless Ray Beckerman by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Informative

      All I want to say is God Bless you, Ray Beckerman.. You are the lone voice crying in the wilderness against the RIAA/MPAA... May you continue fighting the good fight!!

      Thank you for your kind words. But I am not alone. I have been joined in this fight by many fine men and women all across the country, lawyers and defendants alike. We learn from each other, and help and support and get strength from each other.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    2. Re:God Bless Ray Beckerman by florescent_beige · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...I have been joined in this fight by many fine men and women all across the country, lawyers and defendants alike. We learn from each other, and help and support and get strength from each other.

      I would be curious to know what sort of network of support is available to defendants. The tone of the article led me to believe it's almost hopeless:

      The RIAA's expert witnesses have been deposed only once so far in these cases.

      and:

      In the contested cases, the defendants are without the resources needed to challenge the plaintiffs' pleadings...

      and especially:

      Only a single case in four years, Capitol v. Thomas,11 has ever gone to trial, and that one only because the judge denied the defendant's attorney's motion for leave to withdraw.

      --
      Equine Mammals Are Considerably Smaller
  17. Ray Beckerman is the man by blind+biker · · Score: 4, Informative

    Definitely my favourite Slashdot user.

    Such dedication to the greater good is like a rare gem. So rare, in fact, you start doubting it even exists anymore. For those of you who don't know, Ray Beckerman has been fighting the RIAA since a long time, and has been great at it!

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:Ray Beckerman is the man by Bonker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agreed. NCYL gives me quite a bit of hope for the human species in general. If we can produce an attorney who cares about common sense, justice, and the rights of the individual maybe we're not so doomed as I fear.

      --
      The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
  18. The suggestions from TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    By all means, RTFA, as the following will be put into absolutely needed context, but here are the suggestions themselves:

    Suggestion 1. Be alert to misjoinder in "John Doe" cases.
    If a court is presented with a "John Doe" case that joins more than one defendant, under well-settled principles the case should be dismissed as to all John Does except John Doe number one. Plaintiffs should be ordered to show cause why they should not be held in contempt of the November 17, 2004, order of the district court in Fonovisa v. Does and subject to Rule 11 sanctions. And because there will likely be no defendant's counsel present, the court should read the plaintiffs' response with a critical eye.

    Suggestion 2. Require in personam jurisdiction and venue.
    If a court is presented with a John Doe case that fails to set forth detailed factual allegations of the basis for venue and for in personam jurisdiction in that district, the action should be dismissed.

    Suggestion 3. No ex parte motion practice.
    Nothing should be granted ex parte unless it involves an order providing for meaningful notice of the motion for discovery to be afforded to the John Doe and to the ISP. The order should state that the ISP is to be provided with a full set of papers for transmission to the John Doe, and should provide ample time from the Doe's receipt of such papers, consistent with the court's usual practices for motions on notice, to respond. These should include everything a defendant is normally entitled to receive under the court's usual rules and practices, including the summons and complaint, all of the motion papers, and the court rules, notices, and other materials supplied to defendants.

    Suggestion 4. Make explicit the legal authority upon which discovery
    applications are permitted or rejected.

    Justice will be well served if a court is able to take the time to scrutinize the statutory basis invoked for each discovery application, cite the authority supporting its rulings, and deny discovery applications on their merits if they are not warranted by existing statutes or case law.

    Suggestion 5. Scrutinize John Doe pleadings and evidence without being intimidated by technology jargon.
    The complaint, of course, affords the opportunity to ensure that plaintiffs have validly pleaded a copyright infringement claim and that the evidence is admissible and covers all elements of the claim. It is easy to be overwhelmed by impressive-sounding technical and pseudo-technical jargon. Allow me to observe that if the court and the court's law clerks and law secretaries (many of whom are "digital natives") do not understand the case, that may be a sign that the plaintiff has none.

    Suggestion 6. Carefully evaluate motions to dismiss under Rule 12(b)(6) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
    Careful evaluation of a complaint's sufficiency on a motion to dismiss may ultimately spare defendants significant and unwarranted hardship. A court, therefore, should stay all discovery while the motion is pending, and, if it denies the motion, certify the order denying the dismissal motion for an interlocutory appeal.

    Suggestion 7. No routine consolidation or "related case" treatment.
    A court need only follow traditional principles for consolidation and "related case" treatment. There is no need to create a special exception for these plaintiffs. Where the defendants are unrelated to each other, their cases are unrelated to each other and should be treated as such.

    Suggestion 8. Keep discovery short and sweet.
    If, and only if, the plaintiffs can muster an evidentiary showing that their case has merit and that the defendant committed copyright infringement, then the court may allow (1) a deposition of the plaintiffs; (2) a deposition of the defendant; and (3) an examination of the hard drive by a mutually agreeable independent neutral forensics expert whose fees will be advanced by the plaintiffs and will be treated as a taxable disbursement to ab

    1. Re:The suggestions from TFA by magus_melchior · · Score: 3, Insightful

      (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer; Mr. Beckerman is a fine lawyer with principles and courage.)

      After reading the article, some observations about the content companies' counsel:

      1. Misjoinder and other violations of procedure/precedent: Counsel has taken one cue too many from the Bush White House, and has decided to simply ignore anyone telling them to cease and desist from behaving badly. Contempt of court and other sanctions may apply, but due to the fast file-and-drop nature of the John Doe suits, they are rarely, if ever, exercised, reinforcing the end-run behavior of counsel and plaintiffs.

      2. Counsel is consistent in its strategy of playing dirty, as evidenced by the aforementioned disregard of orders and procedures, filing in federal jurisdictions less "friendly" to the defendants, filing multiple times against the same defendant, using evidence that is at best disingenuous, stacking the deck in its favor in discovery, etc., etc.

      3. Counsel bases ex parte discovery on two fallacious claims: that the evidence can only be brought forth in such a discovery, and that plaintiffs would suffer "irreparable harm" if ex parte discovery is denied. Counsel fails to both reasonably support either claim or show that this "irreparable harm" is in fact the inflated loss figures* concocted by the plaintiffs' marketing/finance/legal departments.

      4. Counsel expunges its conscience and common sense, believing the plaintiffs' claims that there is no such thing as a legal download of copyrighted content, and that anyone even remotely implicated by its driftnet investigation should be pursued to the depths of poverty and hardship. Should they be brought before the bar association for misconduct, I believe they will invariably invoke the Nuremberg defense (if not the Chewbacca defense) for their zealous representation of their plaintiffs.

      * They claim: 'Unauthorized' digital copy = lost sale = lost revenue. This is the basis for every ridiculous claim by the plaintiffs, e.g. "ripping a CD = unauthorized", because if you made a copy, it must be for some insidious purpose. IMO, Every MBA who insists that these are true does not deserve their degrees.

      Here's hoping that enough district judges will gain enough wisdom to stop the MPAA from using these same tricks in its own litigation campaign.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
  19. Real question by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have read the copyright law, but since I am not a trained lawyer I am confused on one part.

    Is downloading infringement? or is it distribution?

    Distribution makes sense to me, downloading(receiving) doesn't.

    Am I to be liable if it turns out the book I bought from a bookstore is actually a copy of something some else wrote?

    Where doesn't it say downloading is infringement?

    AFAIK, All the cases had people whose software was downloading also had 'sharing' turned on.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Real question by jeiler · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is downloading infringement? or is it distribution?

      OK, I am not Ray, and I am not a lawyer. Make of this what you will. All of the following applies to US law.

      Distributing other people's copyrighted files may violate 17 USC 106(3). Downloading other people's copyrighted files may be considered "reproducing" said file, which may violate 17 USC 106(1).

      The big problem is these laws were written before p2p sharing existed, so we don't really know for certain how the law applies to these issues. The RIAA (and other groups such as the MPAA) is arguing that 17 USC 106 be applied very broadly, so as to definitely condemn downloading and uploading files. Ray, the EFF, and other organizations are arguing (among other things) that 17 USC 106 does not apply as RIAA thinks it should.

      --

      If you haven't been down-modded lately, you aren't trying.

      Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

    2. Re:Real question by jeiler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you don't have the balls to sign your name and stand behind your assertions, then you don't have the worth to be addressed in a meaningful fashion.

      --

      If you haven't been down-modded lately, you aren't trying.

      Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

    3. Re:Real question by Nikker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funny though that the only copy that is actual music is when it's been decompressed and sent over the speakers. The file is just the potential to be similar to the song/music it is actually only copied once it is realized in terms of being sound.

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    4. Re:Real question by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1. Some 'copying', i.e. from from drive to RAM, has already been held to be legally exempt from the very definition you are trying to give it, in reference to various EULA's and such. While some courts are still wrangling over just what does and doesn't count, such actions as sending data to a printer buffer and then printing it definitely don't count as multiple violations of copyright.
          Your claim that 'every time you open the file after that, another set of copies gets made" is absurd, and has gotten inexperienced lawyers censured for invoking it in actual courts. It would make every person reading an electronic book they had legitimately paid for a criminal, as they have purchased only one copy and no rights to reproduce it.
      2. By your definition, you have made a copy of a written document by looking at it (a copy then exists as an inverted image on your retina.) You have then made another copy by retaining that image in your brain, and by your brain's having converted the data to an interpreted set of ideas and not just an image in the visual cortex, you have made a third copy. If you even consider speaking the words you have seen, a fourth copy has just been made, in your brain's speech processing regions. So, your argument apparently makes all reading illegal.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  20. Well done by BlueParrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know of the shady tactics used by teh RIAA, but even thou I have been reading slashdot and groklaw for years, I was nto aware of the extent to which these companies have systematically and intentionally violated even the most basic court principles with the intention to scare ordinary people. Let them hang I say...

    Oh, and well done Ray, I will be saving this article as an example of why we need due process.

    1. Re:Well done by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know of the shady tactics used by teh RIAA, but even thou I have been reading slashdot and groklaw for years, I was nto aware of the extent to which these companies have systematically and intentionally violated even the most basic court principles with the intention to scare ordinary people. Let them hang I say... Oh, and well done Ray, I will be saving this article as an example of why we need due process.

      Yes it's pretty astonishing the lengths to which they will go to make sure the defendant doesn't have a fair shake in court.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    2. Re:Well done by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They have to. If they didn't, they couldn't win a single case.

      When you tried to fight out a "normal" case, with real commodities instead of virtual ones, with the threadbare evidence they have, you'd be thrown out of the courtroom before you're done putting down all those cutsy "exhibit A" tags.

      Think about it, what do they have (at best)? A log, telling them that some machine accepted (not even initiated) a transfer of a data chunk. This machine may or may not have done this under the control of the defendent. Provided it was under his control, it may or may not have been his intention to get this file (ever wanted to download a blockbuster and got some gay porn instead? Now imagine this in reverse). And provided it arrived at the IP Address in question, we should still check his WiFi router for piggyback riders...

      And so on. Would you want to court with this kind of evidence in your hands to a fair and equal trial?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Well done by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, it's called "being a good attorney".

      No, it's really fucking not! Attorneys are also "officers of the court," and have the responsibility and obligation to uphold proper court procedure. The RIAA's lawyers are absolutely failing in their duty to the court, and should be sanctioned for it!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:Well done by NormalVisual · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They have to. If they didn't, they couldn't win a single case.

      And they should be more concerned about justice and the proper use of the court system rather than just winning cases. The thing is, rather than pursuing the cases, they should be telling their clients (the RIAA members) that their cases are deficient and there's not enough real evidence to continue. That's what an ethical lawyer acting as an officer of the court would do. Instead, they prefer to cash those big checks and twist the system around in an attempt to actively hinder their chosen target's ability to receive justice in the courts. Worst of all, in some cases they are richly rewarded for having abused said system so skillfully.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    5. Re:Well done by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Compare

      The thing is, rather than pursuing the cases, they should be telling their clients (the RIAA members) that their cases are deficient and there's not enough real evidence to continue.

      with

      Worst of all, in some cases they are richly rewarded for having abused said system so skillfully.

      I at least could see a reason why they did it.

      Is it unethic? Yes. Are they a shame for their profession? Oh yes, very much so. But there ain't only lawyers who are in the biz for the big buck and don't give a rat's ass about ethics, their clients or the reputation of their trade.

      You have the same kind of people in so many professions. Never had a doc that tried to prescribe certain drugs, whether you need them or not, just because he just happens to be in some good standing with a certain pharma corporation, and as long as they didn't really harm you, you had them in your medics. How about taxi drivers that take tourists on an unwanted sightseeing tour across town? And let's not start about the perpetual sale for closure on persian rugs.

      But we needn't look that far, we got our share of crooks. Remember Kim "Kimble" Schmitz? Now, I guess few people consider him some sort of "real" computer expert, but what do you know? Maybe lawyers have the same contempt for Jack Thompson and don't consider him a "real" lawyer?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Well done by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, it's called "being a good attorney". Being one yourself, you can certainly identify. The attorney's job is to present the client's arguments in the best possible light, and if he has to bend the law or ethics to do it, then that's his job. Breaking the law is OK too, as long as you don't get caught...

      Maybe that's your definition of a good attorney. But it isn't mine.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    7. Re:Well done by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, it's called "being a good attorney". Being one yourself, you can certainly identify. The attorney's job is to present the client's arguments in the best possible light, and if he has to bend the law or ethics to do it, then that's his job. Breaking the law is OK too, as long as you don't get caught

      How can being bad possibly be good?

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  21. +5 Insightful? +3 Informative? by shrikel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Funny, I didn't realize the ABA utilized slashcode.

    --
    Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
  22. Re:Of all 3 branches by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

    under a lot of scrutiny because of its political bias

    Now, let apply the same to the other branches of Government please ....

    Political Bias = Republicrat and Demican parties, where 2/3 of the people can want something and one person can hold it up because they "want to save the planet", or "protect us against evildoers"!

     

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  23. I'll probably get modded down as "redundant" by beadfulthings · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But I'll post this anyway. Your efforts are sincerely appreciated by many of us. I've read the article, and I hope that judges who read it will take a serious look.

    I am currently actively involved in supporting a blogger in the UK whose right to free speech was recently threatened. I would not have had the interest or courage to become involved in this effort if I had not been exposed to the RIAA issue on Slashdot. Though the two types of cases differ greatly, the underlying message is the same: Individual freedoms must not be tampered with or trampled. You have expressed that basic truth very eloquently, and I hope you will continue to do so for a very long time.

    --
    "Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
  24. Re:+5 Insightful? +3 Informative? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Funny

    Funny, I didn't realize the ABA utilized slashcode.

    I guess you didn't read my Slashdot interview and the comments which followed it, where I said quite clearly:

    Thank you all for the interview, and for the rough and tumble comment period which followed it. I really enjoyed it. It was incredible fun. I've even learned an important new legal research method in the process. A lawyer can't just read a bunch of cases and statutes to know what the law is. He also needs to come to Slashdot, because if somebody here says something's the law, and it gets moderated to +5, then it's the law. Maybe lawyers don't know it, and Congress doesn't know it, and the judges don't know it, but sooner or later, I'm sure they'll come around.

    The legal profession is just starting to catch up to Slashdot, but we'll come around.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  25. Re:+5 Insightful? +3 Informative? by fyoder · · Score: 3, Funny

    It has become a geek meme. Can also be used as a pickup line, as in "Hey, babe, anyone ever tell you you're +5 beautiful?" Followed shortly by, "Hey, sweet stuff, I see you've barfed in your drink. Can I buy you another?"

    --
    Loose lips lose spit.
  26. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by RuBLed · · Score: 2, Funny

    But in 6 years you would be 3 times older than me. How old is the child sitting beside me now?

  27. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by Zwicky · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yeh, we all thought you were fighting the good fight from your Mom's basement*.

    On a serious note though, nice work, Mr NYCL. You are the first and only legal eagle I've come across who is well-grounded and rooted in reality. I hope others will follow your lead (if they aren't already).

    Some men are pioneers and others are followers. You Sir, are a fine pioneer and for that we commend you. Man, you're like the legal profession's Columbo. Do you have a Mac? ;)

    --
    "Three eyes are better than one" -- Lieutenant Columbo
  28. Interesting... by gillbates · · Score: 5, Interesting

    FTA: Only a single case in four years, Capitol v. Thomas,11 has ever gone to trial, and that one only because the judge denied the defendant's attorney's motion for leave to withdraw.

    The possible reasons behind this interest me:

    1. The defendants knew they were guilty and just decided to settle, or:
    2. The defendants realized that, guilty or innocent, it's just cheaper to settle, and possibly:
    3. Those with the resources to stand up to the RIAA find that - with the exception of the above case - they're all bark and no bite.
    4. Which means that while you might not be able to avoid being sued by the RIAA, it isn't likely that you'll actually get to trial. Which futher implies that:
    5. The RIAA is using the courts to run an extortion racket.

    It seems that only the most unconscionable, reckless, and irresponsible corporate officers would authorize settling a debt for pennies on the dollar, yet this is exactly what the likes of Vivendi, Sony, etc... propose with their settlement offers. For this to be a legitimate debt, the CEOs of said corporations are breaching their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders.

    I'm wondering if I could buy stock in Sony and sue the CEO for devaluing the company's assets. After all, if downloading really does cost several hundred thousand dollars per infringer, why are they settling for a few thousand?

    I'm waiting for them to get sued under RICO.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Interesting... by harryHenderson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Settling a debt for pennies on the dollar is only reckless, unconscionable, and irresponsible if the defendants have dollars. In most cases the RIAA is taking the defendants for basically everything they have and as such they are getting the most bang for their buck by settling for all of the defendants pennies. So, although I like the RICO idea I doubt the shareholder suit would fly.

    2. Re:Interesting... by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmm... let's see the possible outcome...

      1. Defendent knows he's guilty and settles -> RIAA wins
      2. Defendent knows he can't afford to fight, no matter if he's guilty -> RIAA wins
      3. Defendent knows he's innocent and decides to fight, RIAA drops case -> Defendent wins

      In total, I think it's quite a good chance for the RIAA to win their case without ever going to court. I wonder why they don't just randomly pick people and sue ... nevermind.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Interesting... by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm wondering if I could buy stock in Sony and sue the CEO for devaluing the company's assets. After all, if downloading really does cost several hundred thousand dollars per infringer, why are they settling for a few thousand?

      IANAL, and nor am I a music executive, but I can think of an answer to that one easily enough.

      Because otherwise they'll have to spend just as much on lawyers which they're unlikely to get back; even if awarded costs you can't get a man whose total assets amount to $100,000 to give you $200,000.

  29. Re:Of all 3 branches by langelgjm · · Score: 2, Informative

    Political Bias = Republicrat and Demican parties, where 2/3 of the people can want something and one person can hold it up because they "want to save the planet", or "protect us against evildoers"!

    Not sure what you're referring to here, but if 2/3 of Congress wants to pass a bill, they can do so. 2/3 is also the amount needed to override a presidential veto, so one person can't hold it up.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
  30. fishing with a net... by perlchild · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems to me that the RIAA's quote in the appendix is quite interesitng:
    when you fish with a net, you're gonna catch a few dolphins

    Especially since you can see from the list of people they sued, that they have only sued dolphins(casual defenseless infringers), and not a single barracuda(large scale industrial pirates)...

    1. Re:fishing with a net... by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Funny
      Especially since you can see from the list of people they sued, that they have only sued dolphins(casual defenseless infringers), and not a single barracuda(large scale industrial pirates)...

      How many gigabytes of mp3s do I have to accumulate to level up to 'shark with frickin' laser beam on its head'?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  31. What options do WE have? by CorporateSuit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Formal, nonetheless engaging. The article did have a few "think of the poor" phrases that seemed a little obtuse (in comparison to the rest of the article, which was impeccable), as justice meted for violation of copyright laws should be, ideally, blind -- listening to what's right vs. wrong instead of who is right vs. wrong. Imagining the worst, it seems it could be confused from the original intent of the article: allowing defendants to competently defend themselves.

    The article does raise a question for me, however, as a standard person that could get caught up in something like this. If I were to get a judge who turns a blind eye to these seemingly common sense parts of a due process, would there be anything I could do to demand that I be given the rights to a fair trial, or would such demands be seen as contempt of court? I'm assuming it'd be poor sport to tell the judge that he's not doing his job, and even if granted a retrial, wouldn't win me many points with his replacement.

    tl;dr: what's the best way a man can proceed if he doesn't get a fair first trial?

    --
    I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    1. Re:What options do WE have? by Petrushka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The article did have a few "think of the poor" phrases that seemed a little obtuse (in comparison to the rest of the article, which was impeccable), as justice meted for violation of copyright laws should be, ideally, blind -- listening to what's right vs. wrong instead of who is right vs. wrong.

      Personally I think Ray made a good case for this (see page 2 in particular). The judge's job, he argues, is to make sure that the trial is equitable. As he points out, there's an awful lot of ex parte stuff going on, and most times the defendant actually appears it's pro se or else the defendant's representation is only there because they have to be; given that, the only way to make sure that the trial is equitable is for the court to rest a finger lightly on the scales. I hope the article's intended readers find that half as persuasive as I do.

  32. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by aurispector · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The key thing is that the message is getting to the right ears. NYCL's work puts him in a unique position to put the pieces together to show the bigger picture. Hopefully things will improve as a result, at least until the RIAA and MPAA get the law changed. And yes, I'm THAT pessimistic about it.

    --
    I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
  33. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by unity100 · · Score: 2, Funny

    when i was your age, we used to eat our dung for dinner.

  34. Awesome by sabernet · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm Canadian but am impacted a lot by what goes on down there as certain parties luuuuv to peddle that sleeze Northward and beyond.

    So allow me to throw some transnational thanks your way:) It greatly is appreciated.

  35. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by Zwicky · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I couldn't fail to disagree more[0] :)

    It's all very well us bitching about things on Slashdot, but people need to be out there making a difference (I'm just as guilty as anyone at being too lazy sometimes so I'm not on my high horse here).

    In that vein it is great to see someone like NYCL - someone so obviously in tune with rational thought and even posting on Slashdot no less! - grabbing this opportunity to address the right ears with both hands.

    I'm pessimistic to some extent too but nonetheless this gives us more hope than there would be otherwise.

    [0] That is, I agree - for the benefit of any hard-of-thinking, shoot-from-the-hip modsters out there ;)

    --
    "Three eyes are better than one" -- Lieutenant Columbo
  36. Never mind that AC... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ladies and gentlemen, I have uncovered a plot! A fiendish plot that undermines the very foundations of Slashdot itself!

    Notice how Ray Beckerman goes out and defends people against the RIAA, to win the hearts and minds of Slashdotters. Then he uses that goodwill to get stories published from the firehose, onto the front page. What happens next is the really fiendish bit: he posts a series of comments on the article, whereupon the moderators invariably mod them up to +5.

    Can't you see what he's doing? It all fits: Ray Beckerman is a karma whore! This is a bigger conspiracy than twitter and his sock puppets!

    1. Re:Never mind that AC... by Some_Llama · · Score: 2, Funny

      no, no, don't you see? In the universe everything has a polar opposite.. Ray is the anti-Roland Piquepaille.

      If one posts a story and links to the other Slashdot will implode! (or explode?)

  37. Re:Wonderful article by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A very thorough yet accessible article. Very well done- a wonderful job of putting together a complex set of factual and legal issues. Do you suppose someone at the RIAA will read and (in any way) react to this?

    My guess is that they've been reading it, and preparing a public relations counterattack. It's not in their nature to learn something from it; they're not programmed to learn.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  38. Re:NYCL's silence means...(A POLL) by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Funny

    5) None of the above.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  39. Re:Of all 3 branches by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My understanding it is considered in bad form to invoke cloture in the Senate even if one has the votes to do so. That means that a fair amount of legislation can be blocked by committees/filibusters/etc just by the virtue of everybody caring more about being polite than democracy.

    I think that half the time representatives use these maneuvers as excuses, as in "well, I would have voted for it but those evil (somebody else)'s didn't let it come up for a vote." They're just as happy that it didn't come up for a vote - because then they'd need to go on the record and tick somebody off...

  40. Sweet piece of writing, mate by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 5, Interesting
    So you Yanks do keep the odd clear thinker around?* Good job, that. Bloody good job. I just hope the judges read the end notes too - there's a lot of good content in there, may ultimately be as useful to the process of achieving fair treatment as your well-crafted suggestions.

    I may be a wee bit out of your jurisdiction but I maintain the appeal to fairness and reason presented in your paper holds universal appeal.

    (Shakes head, walks away whistling.)

    *Yeah, deliberate troll, on the basis that you're allowed to insult your friends. Deal.

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  41. Re:Hey NewYorkCountryLawyer by abushga · · Score: 2, Funny

    I was young once, but I got over it. (Mark Twain)

  42. Re:What's the circulation going to be? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Informative

    How widely read is the ABA quarterly in the judging profession, and if it's not that high, how much would it cost to (and would it be worth doing to) send a dead-tree copy of the article to every judge in the country?

    It's very widely read among judges.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  43. I'd like to point out... by Il128 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The RIAA has sued and settled with innocent people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_efforts_against_file-sharing#Criticism The RIAA has been criticized in the media after they subpoenaed Gertrude Walton, an 83-year-old grandmother who had died in December of 2004.[94] Mrs. Walton stood accused of swapping rock, pop and rap songs. The RIAA in 2003 attempted to sue Sarah Seabury Ward, a 66 year-old sculptor residing in Boston, Massachusetts. They alleged that she shared more than 2,000 songs illegally. The RIAA dropped the suit when it was discovered that she was a computer novice. The case was dismissed, but without prejudice. In a Brooklyn case, Elektra v. Schwartz,[95] against RaeJ Schwartz, a Queens woman with Multiple Sclerosis, the RIAA's lawyers wrote to the Judge that they were in possession of a letter in which "...America Online, Inc., has confirmed that Defendant was the owner of the internet access account through which hundreds of Plaintiffsâ(TM) sound recordings were downloaded and distributed to the public without Plaintiffsâ(TM) consent.â After the defense received a copy of the letter, it turned out that the letter merely identified Ms. Schwartz as the owner of an internet access account, and said nothing at all about "downloading" or "distributing".[96] The RIAA has also been criticized for bringing lawsuits against children, such as 12 year old Brianna LaHara in 2003.[97] The RIAA also attempted to sue Candy Chan of Michigan, for the alleged actions of her daughter, 13 year old Brittany Chan. Under the threat of a possible defendant's motion for summary judgment and attorneys fees, the RIAA withdrew the case Priority Records v. Chan.[98][99] When the court ruled in favor of the mother, dismissing the case, the RIAA proceeded to sue her child. However, prosecuting a minor is more difficult; the Michigan federal court required the RIAA to make provision for a guardian ad litem to be appointed to protect the interests of the child, and required the RIAA to be responsible for paying the guardian ad litem. The RIAA failed to submit a workable proposal, and the Court dismissed the case. The RIAA recently sued the 16-year old son of Patti Santangelo[100] and as of this writing is attempting to force a 10 year old girl in Oregon to be deposed (she would have been 7 years old at the time of the alleged infringement)[101]. The RIAA has also filed a lawsuit against a woman who has never bought, turned on, or used a personal computer for using an "online distribution system" to obtain unlicensed music files.[103] This occurred again in the Walls case; "I don't understand this", said James Walls, "How can they sue us when we don't even have a computer?".[104] The RIAA filed a lawsuit against Larry Scantlebury, a man who had passed away. They offered the deceased man's family a period of sixty days to grieve the death before they began to depose members of Mr. Scantleburyâ(TM)s family for the suit against his estate.[105]

    --
    Thanks to eating disorders most chicks are reasonably good looking these days.
  44. Re:this is excellent news by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It doesn't so much make a mockery out of the legal system but abuses it to browbeat its opponents.

    The MAFIAA has a lot of money to back it. When someone with money wants to get you to submit, he uses the courts. For many rather simple reasons:

    First, money. It takes a LOT of money to stand up in court against someone. Now, of course it costs both sides a lot of money, but as I said, they have more than you. Almost invariably so. And they choose their opponents carefully, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't go after, say, Donald Trump. Check their records and you'll see that you almost invariably have "regular Joes" on their target list. They don't even have to make remotely sure that they have a case at all. It's a FUD campaign, with the courts as the "muscle".

    They drag you to court into an expensive battle. You have the choice now. Back down and pay their insane claims, whether you're guilty or not, or fight them and pay insane amounts of money for lawyers. Your choice, you're broke either way.

    Oh, you mean suing them for expenses. Sure, you can. Unless of course they suddenly drop your case, leaving you empty handed, or drag the settlement of expenses for months and years. Tell me, how long do you think your creditors will want to wait? For the verdict that will come in a year or two? Anyone who thinks so doesn't deal with banks too often.

    First they try to browbeat you into submission by using a lot of legal mumbo jumbo, a lot of bullying with exaggerated claims and a "moderate" settlement fee (this alone shows that they don't even consider their case good enough to win with a verdict, why should they be interested in a short trial? They have the time and money on THEIR side!), and should you fight it out, they wear you down by dragging it out like some well chewed gum, letting your bills pile up and simply and plainly trying to bleed you dry.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  45. No "John Doe" subpoenas in Germany by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Informative

    German courts _have_ rejected subpoenas for the names and addresses of more than 10,000 IP addresses with the simple reasoning that the plaintiffs had no intention at all to file a criminal case. They basically told them to bugger off and if they want to find out the names they have to do that themselves and not use tax payers money to help in their civil litigation. (The record companies basically claimed that these 10,000 people had done something criminal, in which case the criminal justice system would have to go to work to help solving the crime. However, it was just too obvious that this was just a pretence to get the names and sue in civil court). The police is not supposed to find music downloaders when they could use their time to find thieves, murderers etc. ).

  46. Isn't that intentionally misleading the Court? by cheros · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In a fair number of instances you mention it appears the reality is somewhat far removed from what the RIAA lawyers state, or it appears statements were made with the clear intention to mislead.

    Isn't that a punishable offense? If not it should be IMHO - at a criminal level so that it cannot be insured against or subverted by some more creative lawyering. One must keep in mind that if a lawyer is prepared to step so far out of the expected modus operandi to make such statements, actual misdirection is not too much further from the accepted course of action.

    It's up to the judges to safeguard the system. So far, that idea apparently hasn't worked too well..

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  47. To NYCL.. Questions and a comment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now that you've published this document, to what extent do you believe that it will be read and absorbed by the judiciary?

    What is the liklihood of the judiciary taking notice of your publication rather than reading it one night before bed and waking up the next day as if it had never been written, as they approve their next misjoinder?

    Given that it has been targetted at the judiciary and that attorneys aren't judges, is it reasonable to expect that your local attorney will be aware of this publication and thus able to use it as a source of references in defense?

    Given the mounting criticism of the RIAA's tactics, especially with publications such as this by yourself, if one were to find themselves in court facing the RIAA after this publication, is it possible to ask for a mistrial or challenge the court's process/decision that has allowed the plantiff to get to where they have? (i.e. challenge the competency of the judge and the decision that was made landing you where you are.)

    Finally, a comment - it appeared to end too quickly and there weren't too many typographical errors (I think only "wal" caught my attention.)

    Great stuff!.

  48. Did we hold a shotgun to EMI? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Did we hold a shotgun to EMI/Sony/... and steal their works?

    Did we hold a shotgun to the artists and steal their efforts?

    No. The artists and labels have decided of their own free will to work in a sphere that is overtaken by technology. Just like the flint-knappers and buggy whip manufacturers.

  49. In Soviet Spain... by redscare2k4 · · Score: 2, Informative

    In Spain the General Attorney issued a 115 pages long letter (in spanish) in 2006 saying basically that although copyright violations are indeed illicit, the Judicial System (which is slow as hell and has many problems) has better things to do (like trying to solve its problems) than processing thousands of cases against individuals for such violations, becoming even slower. The letter told state prosecutors not to pursue these violations, thus living only the civil way for our MAFIAA

    But in practice, it also meant that no warrant is going to be issued for identifying any file-sharer (privacy righs > possible civil violation), thus making it impossible for our MAFIAA-like organization, called SGAE, to sue anyone.

    Also note that in Spain is only illicit (not illegal) to share music and movies (software is another matter, as in Spain is ruled by different laws) UNLESS you seek profit. Of course next step for our MAFIAA was to try to prove than by downloading a film you're gaining profit cos you got the movie for free (thus saving money). But in what should be tagged as suddenoutbreakofcommonsense judges decided that "seeking profit" was to be applyed in its narrower definition, that is, selling pirated movies and records, and that individuals that downloaded a copy but did not sell it did not qualify as "seeking profit" under spanish legislation. This ruling has been upheld each time our MAFIAA has tried to appeal.

    Of course they will probably make another French-like law here and screw us :P

  50. Re:Thanks, Ray. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not a potential RIAA target (at least from anything I'VE done...),

    That was also true for MOST of the people who HAVE been targeted.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  51. Re:What's this I shit? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Funny

    I? Who the fuck are you?

    You must be new here.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  52. Re:Wow. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ray, You rock! Great article! I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. Seriously, I sent the link to both my friends!

    Thanks for reminding me. I need to send it to my friend.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  53. What happens when the dust settles by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Somewhat OT, but one thing I've been wondering for awhile. Suppose the RIAA loses a number of cases, gets whacked around in court a fair bit for their dubious legal practices, and in the end clues in that they've alienated a hefty portion of their customer base. What happens next?

    What kind of cases did you work before the RIAA shenanigans, and what would you see for the future? I don't see the RIAA finding a cure to their current case of cranial-rectal inversion anytime too soon, but should that ever happen what cases would you focus on in the future. IP? IT?

    As you've become somewhat of a "crusader" here for the slashdot crowd, I'm sure many would be happy to see your name crop up in defending similar cases in the IT realm.

  54. Epilogue to the article by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Informative

    By the way, the article was written largely in March of this year. In June I submitted a proposed epilogue mentioning a few bits of late breaking news on the 'equal access to justice' issue. The Judges' Journal didn't have room to add it in, but here it is.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  55. HTML version of TFA by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Informative

    A friend who wishes to remain anonymous has been kind enough to furnish me with an HTML version of the article, which is now available here

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful