Slashdot Mirror
Official Support For PHP 4 Ends
Da Massive writes with this excerpt from ComputerWorld:
"For a technology that has been in stable release since May 22, 2000, PHP 4 has finally reached the end of its official life. With the release of PHP 4.4.9, official support has ended and the final security patch for the platform issued. ...With eight years of legacy code out there, it is likely that there are going to be a fairly large number of systems that will not migrate to PHP 5 in the near future, and a reasonable proportion of those that will not make the migration at all. For those who are not able to migrate their systems to the new version of PHP, noted PHP security expert Stefan Esser will continue to provide third party security patching for the PHP 4 line through his Suhosin product."
I am glad to see that the PHP devs can allow an old version to die....unlike Microsoft, which seems determined to drag all of its products down with legacy support.
This is the way progress is made.
FRIST PSOT!!!!!'); DELETE FROM replies WHERE reply != 'FRIST PSOT!!!!!'; --
and yet when microsoft does it there are howls from the idiot gallery that get modded insightful. when it happens with php the same posts get modded as flamebait. very poor trolling indeed.
I felt a great disturbance in the CVS, as if millions of lines of code suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
The bad news: Lots of unsupported legacy code in the wild.
The good news: Any conversion that needs to happen means more work for developers all around! Yay for a paycheck!
Seriously though, PHP4 was fine for what it was, but it definitely had its drawbacks. Poor object support, poor error handling (No try..catch blocks? Seriously?), no type-hinting, no foreach statement, etc. PHP5 is so much easier to work with, and honestly most sites should've made the switch a few years back if they haven't already.
God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
PHP is a minor evil perpetrated and created by incompetent amateurs, whereas Perl is a great and insidious evil, perpetrated by skilled but perverted professionals. -- Jon Ribbens Amen.
PHP 4 was released in 2000 and is finally getting an EOL date but is still going to receive patches. Microsoft XP was released in 2001 and its EOL date is 2009, with security patches until 2014.
Technically the EOL was announced in 2007, and it was the beginning of 2008. What ends today is official security patch support.
The patches offered by Mr. Esser are not official, though I'd say he's more than qualified for the job.
Overall, especially for an open source project, I'd say the transition was handled pretty well. What's worrying me more is where the new versions are heading, but that's another discussion.
.. let me say hooray! PHP5 is worlds ahead.
Let me also say they're wrong about legacy systems being slow to migrate: PHP5 runs PHP4 code just fine (notwithstanding a few copy-on-write and unassigned reference issues, which are very easy to fix).
PHP5, in this context, would be better called "Zend Engine 2", since that's what the real update is. PHP4 the language is essentially just a subset of PHP5.
Incidentally (perhaps) the phpMyAdmin 3.0.0 beta just came out yesterday which sacrifices Zend Engine 1 (PHP4) support. It also drops MySQL 4 support, and I think lots of projects will follow suit; PHP4 is going to drag MySQL 4 with it, which is also great.
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
I question the validity of these assumptions. My first salaried job was programming PHP/FI 2 (1998). I cannot find a single product I have been involved with or even used in the past (which contains PHP code), that hasn't upgraded. Systems written in PHP could only benefit from the improvements in 5 and there's almost nothing written in PHP that's so critical* that it wouldn't be upgraded by the current developers or new developers trained in 5.
*This is both a side effect of the language design and the people who write it.
Can someone give some examples of products stuck in 4.0?
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
I feel like this is only even a story at all because valid PHP 4 code isn't necessarily valid PHP 5 code.
Curious choices by the PHP folks to me, but I'm not really deeply invested enough in PHP to fairly call them good or bad.
The reason for those curious choices was the even more curious choices in the languages design in earlier versions. I would say however, that even the best design gets outdated in time, and it's better to sacrafice compatibility at some point.
Key web-related technologies have reinvented themselves and it's hard to say where they would be if they didn't do so. ASP.NET (vs. old ASP) comes to mind, which was a radical rearchitecture. Flash is another example (on the client side), which almost completely rewrote their rendering stack in version 8, and completely rewrote their script runtime stack in Flash 9.
People will still be allowed to get PHP 4 after it is EOL'd.
Try buying a new copy of XP now. Even getting a computer with XP (and not paying for Vista) is getting difficult now.
That is the difference.
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
For a technology that has been in stable release since May 22, 2000, PHP 4 has finally reached the end of its official life.
I'd like to propose that Slashdot "editors" be stripped of that title, and from now on be referred to simply as "approvers" - there's obviously no editing involved in the job at all.
#DeleteChrome
http://docs.php.net/manual/en/migration5.php
You know what? I'm sick and tired of the fact that every PHP related post to Slashdot ends up sludgefest of old jokes, one-line jabs at PHP, and misinformation.
Official ending of PHP4 support is a big thing in the PHP community. If you're a reader of Planet-PHP, you'll know this; for almost all of 08/08/08 there was nothing but end-of-life celebrations from the bloggers. The community has done an exceptional job at getting developers, open-source projects and hosters alike to migrate to PHP5 for such a heavily used language. And we will have to surmount even bigger difficulties for PHP6 and Unicode, which unlike PHP5, breaks backwards compatibility with any project that treats strings as binary data. Migrating PHP4 to PHP5 is not difficult; often it's as simple as an edit to the server migration. PHP6 will definitely demand code changes.
For those of us who use and "have to deal with" (yes, we have our annoyances too) with PHP on a daily basis, this is good news. For the rest of you, please contribute something meaningful, or forever hold your peace.
You're right. He should have compared it to a car.
So you're not personally familiar with python-based web development. There are a great many people out there that are though: Django, Pythons, Turbogears, Zope are all great places to start.
Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
I went to PHP5 quite a while back. I started with 4 and had already been programing nice (long tags in html, program with globals off, etc.) so there was no issue for me, everything just worked on 5. I do have one script I found on sourceforge (dead project) that doesn't work on 5, probably used something deprecated from 3 slated for removal after 4. I don't expect conversion of that to be too serious either.
I think a lot of the FUD is being placed on ISPs who run PHP4 servers and may have outdated cpanels or other pre-set PHP apps. I would think maybe a weeks worth of work for most mom and pops to get the upgrade complete (a lot it setting up automating on any data upgrade conversions) but it's surely not the end of the world.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
The difference is that PHP5 works great, whereas Vista is a steaming pile of crap. If Vista was any good, I'd be fine with MS killing XP. but it's not.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
For those wondering how many projects will be left out in the cold, here's your answer:
http://gophp5.org/
Over 100 PHP projects and products and over 200 web hosts that have been committed to PHP 5.2 and no earlier for over a year. GoPHP5 launched before the PHP development team announced an EOL for PHP 4. While I don't believe for a second that it was the only reason they made that decision, I also don't believe for a second that it didn't have a big influence on it.
The push to drop PHP 4 support came from people using PHP in production in the first place. Those of us who get paid to write PHP code are cheering at the top of our lungs, because now we can actually get real work done.
Go PHP 5!
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
I can buy a copy of XP, upgrade or full install, retail or OEM at newegg with no problems.
ariven.com
What do you mean, an african or an european car?
Not to be an ass, but your wrong.
In PHP4 objects are passed by value. In PHP5 they're passed by reference.
In PHP5 you also have public, private, and protected variables.
In PHP4 class constructors were the same name as the class. In PHP5 it's __construct.
I could go on about the difference, but I won't. There's a lot of differences between the two.
I'm glad PHP4 has reached EOL.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
Yeah. Even without the frameworks, I like mod_python a whole lot more than PHP. PHP seems like a bunch of nasty hacks to me.
And I can build PHP4 or PHP5 from source, or intall binaries, without sending any money at all to Newegg.
The object support [in 4] was nasty, but still better then the pseudo-object crap that perl has.
Be careful. Some of us feel that OOP is overhyped. While I can see use for it in operating systems and systems software, eCommerce and biz apps have had a difficult time making use of OOP well. I've yet to see a decent example of OOP helping these. (Of course, "decent" is often in the eyes of the beholder.) But, I might change my mind if shown a decent example.
Table-ized A.I.
Please don't let anyone get away with calling the internet the cloud!
Traditionally, when network engineers and administrators draw diagrams of networks, they represent the connection to the Internet as a big bumpy object not unlike a child's drawing of a cloud. I have heard old hackers who used to work in the telecommunications industry during the 80's and 70's describe this object as 'the cloud', meaning the Internet.
This term predates the current usage by several decades, and is in fact the source of the current usage
This is a gentle but pedantic reminder that, if you're going to make an absolute assertion, make sure it is the correct assertion.
I see a lot of people saying that they're surprised anyone's still using PHP 4, when PHP 5 has been out for so long. Well, I can guarantee you there's a lot of legacy PHP 4 codebases out there; converting to 5 is not always as easy as going over what's in the migration page on php.net. Just to give you an idea of the magnitude, we have tends of thousands of code files spread across numerous systems; our live web pool is around 100 machines, and we cannot take the website down in order to update it. (I can't tell you why.) So updates have to be made live. We don't have a proper staging environment, either, but we have come up with a number of (horrible) mechanisms for dealing with this situation.
In our particular (unfortunate) case, we had about half a dozen custom PHP extensions that were all written by our former CTO, who left the company about a year and a half ago. He wasn't really big into documentation, and our technical management was very poor; we had a guy go through our 65,000-file codebase and make all the little tweaks necessary for a vanilla 4-to-5 migration, but it took us six months of wrangling with all these extensions to get them to work well under 5.1 (we're still having trouble with 5.2).
Plus, it's not just a matter of dealing with the technology; like a lot of companies, management here doesn't like to put resources into things that don't have visible benefits -- and cleaning up the codebase/rebuilding the dev environment just isn't something they see a lot of value in. (We've finally convinced them it's important and needs to be done; we're operating without source control for about 99% of our code. YES, I KNOW.) We didn't even seriously start pushing to get things up to PHP 5 until January, and it took until July to actually make it happen.
The point is, mismanagement and bad development environment/codebase design early on (several years ago) have meant that we're upgrading to PHP 5 years later than we should have. It's not that we didn't know how to do it once we decided to.
What specifically does OO make better about it? What's an example?
That would make you well suited to describe and illustrate what changed your mind. Dijkstra was mostly pre-relational, so he may hold a RAM-centric view of data structures. OO is missing a foundation in set theory, and this is what relational adds. OO is anti-set IMO, and this is largely why it bothers me. It's also anti declarative for the most part. Declarative and set theory is a good thing, at least it better fits the way I think (model the app world). OOP is also too pointer-centric, creating a big messy RAM graph.
Table-ized A.I.
Whether or not you see OOP as overhyped, if a language features OOP it should do it well or not at all.
Nobody is asking you to like OOP in this case, but if you are going to support it, support it well - not half-assed.
There are many 1000+ page books on the subject. I think this question is beyond the scope of a slashdot comment. But, as a taste: More literate and intuitive api's. Type safety. MVC.
Specifically about Magento: It uses a framework that has been systematically tested (another advantage of oop) and is based on the MVC + Front Controller paradigm for web apps. It went from whiteboard to working in 3 months. It's simple to extend.
Regarding what changed my mind about OOP: I learned to use OOP techniques. I never had any negative feelings towards OOP, I was just in love with single-in/single-out purity of the old ways.
OOP is great for my shop. Of course you can accomplish the same result, theoretically, with any two complete languages/paradigms. The question is whether you want anyone else to read your code (or whether you want to be able to read it in 6 months), how long you want to take writing/researching it, what your requirements are for code quality, and what kind of environment you want to work in if you're on a team. Obviously, if it's just you and you have eternity to write and debug your application, then oop doesn't offer any advantages.
My advice is just to try it out. You can use your Dijkstra-fu inside of methods and in novel data structures, while at the same time experiencing the convenience and consistency of magic axiomatic things like "programming to an interface." It took me a few months of mind-destroying pain to change the way I built a program, but it is very much worth it. Apologies if you've heard this advice before.
Btw, you sound like you probably know a lot more about Djikstra than I do. :) There are so many ways... OOP is now just a another tool for me. The paradigm that has taken its place as my ocd target is functional languages like Haskell.
Depends on where you are. If you're in the Internet could, then it's a fog, not a cloud ;-).
Anyway, to me "cloud" is not same as the Internet, it's roughly the same as "rest of the Internet". This is an important distinction! Local site is not in the cloud. Remote site (for example another office of the same company) usually is not be in the cloud either, or it could be considered a separate cloud, even though connection to it goes through the big Internet cloud.
The totality of Internet is not dependant on the observer. But the cloud is different for every observer, since at least the computer of the observer is not part of the cloud in their own frame of reference.
Go to about:config and change the value of layout.spellcheckDefault to 2.
I prefer this quote:
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
I wonder when we will see PHP 6 (which will have unicode support).
PHP 6 has been in development forever, but there doesn't seem to be any roadmap online that I can find.
"Bug" is more concise than "a software flaw which causes behavior the developers didn't intend"
It's also due to the fact that early in the history of computing, a fault was found to be due to a moth being trapped between the contacts of a relay.
For what it's worth, I don't like people calling the Internet "the Cloud" either.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Traditionally, when network engineers and administrators draw diagrams of networks, they represent the connection to the Internet as a big bumpy object not unlike a child's drawing of a cloud.
That's true, and I've done it often enough myself. I also draw databases in the traditional manner, and yet I never feel the need to refer to them as cylinders.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
In PHP4 objects are passed by value. In PHP5 they're passed by reference.
This is probably one of the most misunderstood features of PHP5. They are passed by reference, but they're also copy-on-write references. As soon as the variables value is changed, a copy is made, and the function/method then uses the local copy (as if a copy were made in the first place like in php4).
Nothing has changed for the programmer except a reduction in memory usage.
In PHP5 you also have public, private, and protected variables.
Yes, optional. The old var keyword works the same as using public.
In PHP4 class constructors were the same name as the class. In PHP5 it's __construct.
Again, optional. There is also a __destruct() method in php5.
I could go on about the difference, but I won't. There's a lot of differences between the two.
There are a lot of differences, but backwards compatibility is pretty good. A coworker and I converted a 130k loc mess of a php4 codebase (originally php3) from 4.3 to 5.1 with only a handful of changes. It just took a bit of research and a bit of planning.
And yes, good riddance to php4. It will not be missed.
For one thing, if I have a class called Fruit, and I create a new subclass which extends Fruit, say Apple, then the following code samples are equivalent:
class Apple extends Fruit {
function Fruit() {
echo 'I am an apple';
parent::Fruit('apple');
}
}
and
class Apple extends Fruit {
public function __construct() {
echo 'I am an apple';
parent::__construct('apple');
}
}
However, if I now rename the parent class to RipenedOvary, in the first example I will also need to change every reference to Fruit(); in the second example I will only need to change the first line.