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Should Companies Share Criminal Blame In ID Theft?

snydeq writes "Deep End's Paul Venezia criticizes the lack of criminal charges for corporate negligence in data breaches in the wake of last week's Best Western breach, which exposed the personal data of 8 million customers. 'The responsibilities attached to retaining sensitive personal identity information should include criminal charges against the company responsible for a leak, in addition to the party that receives the information,' Venezia writes. 'Until the penalties for giving away sensitive information in this manner include heavy fines and possibly even jail time for those responsible for securing that information, we'll see this problem occur again and again.' As data security lawyer Thomas J. Smedinghoff writes, data security law is already shifting the blame for data breaches onto IT, thanks to an emerging framework of complex regulations that could result in grave legal consequences should your organization suffer a breach. To date, however, IT's duty to provide security and its duty to disclose data breaches does not include criminal prosecution. Yet, with much of the data security framework being shaped by 'IT negligence' court cases over 'reasonable' security, that could very well be put to the test some day in court." It's a slippery slope to be sure, but where should the buck stop?

80 of 328 comments (clear)

  1. Yes/No by HappySqurriel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think it is entirely appropriate to investigate a company when large ammounts of personal information ends up being 'stolen' ... If it turns out that the company did not take the necessary steps to protect people's personal information they should face some consequences. At the same time, there has to be an understanding that even the best technologies available and best practices may not prevent all personal information theft so a company should not face harsh consequences if they took the necessary steps to protect people's information.

    1. Re:Yes/No by penix1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've got a better idea. Ban the collection of personal information beyond the time required for the transaction. I don't but it that companies somehow need to store all this info on people especially years after the transaction has occurred. If you are going to be light on them when they lose it, then be heavy on what they can keep.

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    2. Re:Yes/No by kannibal_klown · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've got a better idea. Ban the collection of personal information beyond the time required for the transaction. I don't but it that companies somehow need to store all this info on people especially years after the transaction has occurred. If you are going to be light on them when they lose it, then be heavy on what they can keep.

      Well what about long-term services like Life Insurance? A service like that would need to keep your Name, Birthday, Social Security Number, address, next of kin, etc until you died and someone collected. And what about Banks and Loan offices?

      A friend of mine got a notice from his life insurance firm saying that a laptop was stolen that probably had his records on it. Why it would be on a flippin LAPTOP I have no idea, something like that should be a server only accessible from the company's encrypted network (but I digress).

      I could also see the benefit of some stores keeping some light data on you (name, address, phone) so they can contact you but I think they should get rid of your credit card info after X days/weeks.

      In all, it's a mixed bag of blame. Personally I think the government and law enforcement should take Identify Theft a lot more seriously, with major penalties against these fraudulent jerks.

    3. Re:Yes/No by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Funny

      So all is ok if the stolen laptop had everything encrypted? That would seem legally equivalent to someone hacking at a server in the company's data center but not getting in. Then what kind of paperwork etc. is required for a contractor to use laptops from the company contracting them? The point being, how far can culpability be extended through the food chain? If an employee is not a security expert and does what IT told them to do but a compromise still happens, is the company or an employee guilty? If my details are leaked and my ID stolen, can I sue the company, the CIO, and the employee?

      Sarbanes-Oxley has already wreaked havoc on the business world. Extending culpability for data breaches to criminal prosecution would be even more destructive in terms of the changes and security costs involved in protecting the company from financial damages in the event of a data breach.

      I'm still waiting for DHS confiscation of a laptop to cause a data breach. When (not if) that happens, can we sue the government?

      (I am playing devil's advocate, or rather corporate advocate)

    4. Re:Yes/No by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think there is a way to go about it that would work.
      The first thing that would have to be done is that we would need some guidelines as to what a "reasonable" level of security is, and even that might be scaled based on the type of information stored. This should then be re-evaluated yearly by a commission of qualified IT managers from industry. There are other limitations which should be placed on the commission, but that's outside the scope of this uninformed rant.

      Just as an example:
      Storing customer names and addresses - Database encryption and basic perimeter security may be considered reasonable. Losing data and not being there should result in fines and maybe some jail time.

      Storing Credit Card info - Same as above, but add backup encryption, laptop hard-disk encryption, internal firewall for DB servers and source code audit on all applications with DB connections. Failure to comply and losing data would be hefty fines, jail time for those responsible for the systems, and civil liability to those people affected.

      Storing Social Security Numbers - All the above, but damages increase substantially, as does jail time, with c-level execs getting in on the PMITA action. And civil liability is increased to "the affected customers now own your ass" level.

      The problem, of course, is that it would be the government doing it, so they would invariably screw it up.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    5. Re:Yes/No by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Great idea lest threw business back 2 decades. This data is used beyond just advertising and marketing it is used to improve the business on the whole.

      Eg. When you call your credit card company you can usually get your balance and access what most usually called features right away. I bet if you call them a few times and not go that route that the phone system may change for you to get you on and off the line quicker making you happy as you are spending less time on the line and them happy not having to pay to keep you on the line for longer times.

      Or if you go back to the store or an online store then it can fill out all the information for you that you entered in already making checkout a lot quicker.

      How about tracking progress of a product line. They see that while a product is still selling strongly they may find that some areas stopping and spreading thus time to change the product or offer services to extend the product. Or change the shipment quanties around so one location isn't overstocked and the other has a stock out.

      Data is key for a successful company as IT Guys you really should know this already. Lack of data will cause you to go by the gut and just start guessing.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Yes/No by thesolo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A friend of mine got a notice from his life insurance firm saying that a laptop was stolen that probably had his records on it. Why it would be on a flippin LAPTOP I have no idea, something like that should be a server only accessible from the company's encrypted network (but I digress).

      $10 says someone was either creating top-line reports or other such nonsense based on spreadsheets full of live data, and they brought it home/outside of the office to continue working on it past business hours.

      I can't even tell you how many times I've seen people in insurance companies take live data home with them so they can whip up statistical reporting. People don't follow IT protocol when it becomes inconvenient for them to do so. (i.e. staying late at the office vs going home & working there.)

    7. Re:Yes/No by David+Gerard · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The Economist ran a report pointing out that companies had whined at length about how Sarbanes-Oxley was crippling their business, but they did an investigation and found that the companies in question were doing as well as before or better.

      (The Economist is absolutely gung-ho to the point of stupidity about free markets, so I don't think they have some sort of corporate agenda in saying so.)

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    8. Re:Yes/No by Zironic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tell me again what part of those features require my personal data? Learn to use a serial number seriously.

    9. Re:Yes/No by __aagmrb7289 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The credit card industry has mandatory PCI compliance. This basically covers your concerns. Supposedly, those companies not compliant will not be allowed to process credit cards - and the requirements must be audited and proven by an outside firm. It's QUITE expensive. The problem is whether or not these rules are being enforced. They ARE getting more stringent as time goes forward.

    10. Re:Yes/No by nine-times · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well what about long-term services like Life Insurance?...A friend of mine got a notice from his life insurance firm saying that a laptop was stolen that probably had his records on it.

      It seems like you could have a rule to dispose of data after the transaction except in businesses/industries where it's necessary, and then regulate those businesses/industries better than we do now. How about it's illegal for a company to put that sort of data onto a laptop?

    11. Re:Yes/No by Foofoobar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody needs to store SSN's except the government that issues them. The fact that people made the MISTAKE of standardizing on SSN's as primary keys for users to begin with is their own fault. Mainly because SSN's are horrible primary keys since they REPEAT!!! Yes look it up... they DO get reissued after death and with longterm storage, this will only cause issues for storage of personal data.

      Second, data loss is a quick route to a lawsuit as a result of storing SSN's; People and companies need to stop this bad procedure especially since laws in several states have been passed banning the practice. Good security can only do so much as human error is inevitably your final point of failure. And do you want to have a couple million social security numbers relying on the security of a backup tape in the back of your juniour sys admin's Pinto overnight?

      --
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    12. Re:Yes/No by beadfulthings · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Getting rid of the credit card data after X weeks seems like an excellent idea.

      It's not easy to get a room at a decent hotel without a credit card. Certainly in some places you can pay cash in advance--but you can't use the phone, order a meal, connect to their network. If they require a credit card, or make it too difficult to procure their services without one, then they should absolutely be held accountable for the safety of the information.

      Organizations of all sorts--retail, airlines, hotels, hospitals, insurance companies, banks, potential employers, not to mention government agencies--are ravenous for your personal information. They go to great lengths to get hold of as much of it as they can, whenever they can, using whatever methods they can. If they want it that badly, they should be responsible for its safety and security, and they should be held accountable when it's compromised.

      We received a letter from our bank a couple of years ago saying that my husband's debit card (never used online) had been compromised, that he should stop using it, and that a new one would be issued. It arrived in due course, but they would never reveal who had screwed up or what had happened. It had to have been a local entity, but it could've been a supermarket, a restaurant, a gas station--we will never know. We don't even have the recourse of not giving them more business and further opportunities to screw up.

      --
      "Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
    13. Re:Yes/No by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The issue is one of negligence not the relative efficacy of the available security technologies. If a company is found, upon discovery, to have exhibited a complete or reckless disregard for the potential consequences of a breach then some liability is in order. The "reasonable man" test can be used by juries to decided whether or not the circumstances surrounding the breach amount to negligence and what the appropriate remedy should be. The negligence tort has already been well litigated in common law countries (like the US, UK, and Australia) so the only thing different here are the details (IT technical details) which might require expert witnesses to testify or offer their opinions, but the basic law in negligence is well settled (at least as far as I understand it, but IANAL so please do not take this as formal legal advice) once the details or facts of a particular matter have been determined.

    14. Re:Yes/No by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Data is key for a successful company

      I never hear about a company having the laptop containing their inventory records getting stolen. Is that a function of nobody but the company caring, or do companies take better care of their "keys" than their customers'?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    15. Re:Yes/No by VEGETA_GT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok first off if you are a IT person who part of your job is dealing with a server holding user records you could be held responsible for even a simple mistake, that I don't mind but criminal charges for said mistake seams a little over the top. If this actually became law, watch how many IT people will decide its not worth the risk or decide there salary needs a big jump because of the risk.

      This is similar to what my father has to deal with In Ontario Canada. He is a maintenance manager at a production plant, so he has to make sure the machines are fixed and the plant is safe. Now here is the kicker, if someone gets hurt and he did not do EVERYTHING (I stress that word here) he could possibly could do to prevent the injury he could face criminal charges. Ok Now define everything, say guy gets hit by a fork lift, did my father have caution tape along the entire stretch of the building the forklift was driving, was there 10 people in front of the forklift making sure no one was there, where there 15 different noises coming for the thing, a announcement over the PA saying its on the way. Um ok the answer is no, he has to be reasonable but in a court of law people have been screwed over for less. Its to the point where he is to anyone who is above the ground I believe 5 feet neets to be tied off, um that begs the great question tied off to what, how do you tie off without getting up and tieing off to something above you da da da. It gets to the point of being just dumb. right now to go up on the roof he has to fill out a form. Takes him 30 min of paperwork to check 1 thing on the roof. I agree with safety but that's to the point even Darwin is shaking his head.

      So back to IT, lets go to court, define EVERYTHING you could have done to prevent a hacker from getting data from a server, well I can un plug it, beat the living crap out of it, encase it in concrete, drop it in a lake and then its 99% safe. There is is always a new hole, but the patch came out for it yesterday and someone took the data 5 min before it got patched, why was it not patched 5 min earlier. Why where you not running the newest 2.0.3.4.66.3.11 instead of 2.0.3.4.66.3.10 that's the sport of thing someone may try in court, how do you defend yourself as in court the common scene approach don't always seem to work.

      Basically how far can you go to say you did everything, and was everything enough, well it never is. LETS bring the guy who came up with safety devices for cars to court, people still died in you car, why is that, how come you did not provide a trained driver with the car, full body air bags da da da. Yes Slippery slope

    16. Re:Yes/No by dfm3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I could also see the benefit of some stores keeping some light data on you (name, address, phone) so they can contact you but I think they should get rid of your credit card info after X days/weeks.

      Indeed, this is the heart of the problem: When X = 52 weeks, or 2 years, or forever. I can understand why a hotel would want to keep my information on file for a short while, say a week or two to assure that I've been charged for my visit, or held responsible if I happened to break a lamp or a window, but I see absolutely NO REASON why a company has to keep my credit card details on file for an entire year after I have concluded a business transaction with them.

      Less critical information such as my name, address, or phone number, sure. If I give this information up I understand that the company might want to use it sometime in the future to contact me. But what benefit is my credit card number to said company a year or two down the road? Is there some sort of insight that can be gained from analyzing credit card usage data? Does the information (if any) gained from such analysis really help them improve the way they do business? It sounds like too many companies have been caught up in the "if we can store the data, we will, even if it's useless" mindset.

    17. Re:Yes/No by baggins2001 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This happens all the time. I've had VP's admit it to me and when I tell the CEO he doesn't really care.
      So therefore I don't care anymore.
      Security becomes a business cost that they didn't anticipate or aren't willing to accept.
      In fact during the latest briefing, we were told that we were looking to go public in a foreign exchange where the regulations weren't as strict.

      --
      He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room
    18. Re:Yes/No by mpe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nobody needs to store SSN's except the government that issues them. The fact that people made the MISTAKE of standardizing on SSN's as primary keys for users to begin with is their own fault.

      It's also rather daft since it complicates matters if they need to deal with customers who don't have SSNs, e.g. corporations.

      Mainly because SSN's are horrible primary keys since they REPEAT!!! Yes look it up... they DO get reissued after death and with longterm storage, this will only cause issues for storage of personal data.

      The reissuing might have some interesting effects if someone's estate took a long time to be sorted out :)

    19. Re:Yes/No by arminw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...Nobody needs to store SSN's except the government that issues them...

      Tell that to your friendly DMV who are now mandated to collect this information by the federal government. It so happens that in any computerized database, a unique record identifier is needed. For any database that could contain information of potentially anyone in any state, the SS is more likely to be unique than any other number currently assigned to nearly everyone.

      Instead of making the legitimate owner of the identity responsible for fraud committed in their name, the financial institution should bear the fraud loss. This would give them an incentive to carefully check the information given by the fraudster. This is essentially the case with credit card fraud today. The legitimate cardholder is essentially not responsible for fraud committed in their name. In spite of this, credit card companies and banks are doing quite well, thank you.

      --
      All theory is gray
    20. Re:Yes/No by jd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, and often far more data is held than is necessary. Also, if you subscribe to the notions of grid computing and cloud computing, why store the data at all? All you need to do is tell an authorized holder of the data what operation you wish to perform, and get the results, entirely black-box. You need never see the data at all.

      In terms of liability, I would argue that the rule should be a generic one: if you assume control of data, you assume responsibility for that data - its accuracy, its security and its legitimacy. The distinction should come in the degree of reasonableness. It is reasonable for a non-mathematical corporation to trust RSA and Elliptic Curve public-key encryption, AES and the SHA-256, Tiger and Whirlpool cryptographic hashes. It is not reasonable for any corporation to trust unencrypted and unsigned sources - they wouldn't trust unsigned paperwork and physical signatures are easier to forge. Organizations which can be reasonably assumed to be aware of security bulletins, the assorted cryptographic lounges and other such sources should be held to the higher standard of being expected to discontinue additional use of vulnerable methods with a migration of legacy data in circulation within a sensible period.

      It is never reasonable to hold data a corporation cannot use in future, cannot be sure is authentic or accurate, and/or cannot be sure is serving any legitimate purpose on the system. Since there is no excuse to hold such data, there is less of an excuse to lose it. You can't lose what you don't have, so any loss of such data - regardless of method - can never be passed off as unavoidable. It was easily avoidable. Don't keep such data. Likewise, if an individual within that corporation is provided access to information they didn't actually need, and that data is subsequently lost as a result, that should be an automatic crime even if every precaution was taken, simply because it was an unnecessary gamble and therefore not entitled to any protection or justification.

      Data that is accurate, legitimate and in active use should be considered as highly sensitive, and companies that do not treat the data with the respect and maturity they are capable of and for which the data is deserving should find themselves less in hot water than boiling oil. Like I said earlier, this depends on what the company can be regarded as being aware of. All companies can be deemed aware of published security patches, common security software (Tripwire, RSA and PGP are hardly obscure!) and software equivalents of practices already in place for physical documents. Government (including military and veterans affairs) and computationally advanced organizations, as I said, should be aware of relatively mainstream peer-reviewed discoveries, not just pre-packaged solutions, and should also be aware of vulnerability scanners (Nessus, nCircle, SARA/TARA, and so on) and advanced access controls, where the size and type of organization is going to dictate what sort of preventative measures are cost-effective.

      Where a company falls below what can reasonably be expected of it, and loses data, that's boiling oil time. Where a company meets or exceeds a rational, sane level of protection and still loses data it needed to have, it should still be responsible for contributing towards cleaning up the mess (same as you would in a truly no-fault car accident) but shouldn't be punished for what was beyond its abilities to deal with. (That "needed to have" qualifier really is important.)

      If a company deliberately places data in a dangerously exposed context (eg: pushing personal data onto unsecure systems overseas to avoid any national laws on data security), then they deserve not only the boiling oil treatment but a loss of right to operate. Dodging the law or evading responsibility is not a helpful way to tackle data insecurity, even if it looks like a cheap way to solve the problem for the company.

      To those who argue that this is a slippery slope, I'd say that reasonable conduct can never be a slope, nor can it be slippery. If anything, it is a great leveler and a superb provider of grip and balance.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    21. Re:Yes/No by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since a state issued ID is considered to be valid identification for the federal government. And the federal government uses SSNs to identify people, it seems fine to me that they'd use that information.

      If one is going to be using it to board a plane, as identification for a passport, to register to vote in federal elections, it seems fair to me for the federal government to expect that state issued IDs are going to be recorded against the SSNs.

  2. civil not criminal by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This would be a great civil class action case, but criminal? The slope is quite slippery, and like previous posters have said, the cops don't do much when it comes to non-violent, non-domestic, non-street crimes.

    Of course, some would argue that the banks and lenders behind the whole sub-prime mortgage crisis deserve to be criminally punished for causing a global recession and for the number of lives they've destroyed.

    1. Re:civil not criminal by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the cops don't do much when it comes to non-violent, non-domestic, non-street crimes.

      I know a man who was charged with home invasion and attempted murder for breaking into a man's home and trying to kill him with a butcher knife, and plea bargained down to two weeks in the county jail.

      A woman I know spent four months in Dwight Correctional Center for a non-violent drug offense (possession). It seems to me that being careless with thousands of peoples' lives, let alone attempted murder, should carry a far heavier burden than a crime with no victim.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  3. Criminal charges for companies != jail time by religious+freak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If a COMPANY is being prosecuted criminally, you obviously cannot have jail time, because it's a non-person.

    However, you can (and IMO should) have much stiffer penalties than civil courts allow. When a data security breach is so bad to as harm society itself, it should be prosecuted criminally - this is the doctrine for criminal prosecution of companies. Criminal penalties can range from massive monetary damages, to shutting the entire company down, or forcing changes in management. This is the correct route to go.

    Obviously, if the implication is that the IT workers themselves should be thrown in jail, this is absurd and would cause all kinds of damage, both foreseeable and unintended.

    --
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    1. Re:Criminal charges for companies != jail time by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Freezing a companies' assets and disallowing any business for two years would be the equivalent of putting a human in prison for two years. So you could, in fact, "jail" a corporation. You could shield its employees (at least the ones not responsible) by forcing the company to pay them anyway. If it goes bankrupt, well, people go bankrupt after incaration, why shouldn't businesses?

      Or converseley, put its CEO and Board of Directors in a maximum security prison with the other criminals, many of whom caused far less damage to people, or none at all.

      The thing is, the corporations are deemed too valuable to be punished. THIS is what should change.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    2. Re:Criminal charges for companies != jail time by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If a COMPANY is being prosecuted criminally, you obviously cannot have jail time, because it's a non-person.

      It is tiring that this line of reasoning keeps getting trotted out.
      WTF do you think executive officers are for?

      "The Company" doesn't do anything illegal, the corporate officers & various (vice) presidents are the ones in charge and they have always born the responsibility of the company's actions.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:Criminal charges for companies != jail time by RevMike · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not only is it the death penalty, it will drive other corps out of the United States. The economic impact would be far far greater than the damage caused by the underlying crime.

      Imagine, if you would, that a mid sized wall street bank was subject to this law. Say Credit Suisse is shut down because of a breach. That might be 20,000 or 30,000 jobs lost directly right there.

      How long would it take before Citibank, JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, and Goldman Sachs all flee to London and Tokyo? That is probably another million jobs right there.

      Then consider the people who are indirectly affected. The construction workers who were about to put an addition on the home of a now unemployed worker. The people who serve lunch near the corporate headquarters of these companies. etc. All told we are now looking at 6 million jobs total.

      Next consider the fact that it will be very hard for a business to get a loan or sell stock in the United States, since there is a very high risk that the company could be shut down. Tens of thousands of businesses dry up. Now we are talking a loss of thirty to forty million jobs.

      No. Prosecuting a company for anything but the most egregious acts doesn't make any sense at all. That isn't to say that making executive more liable doesn't make sense, but prosecuting companies willy nilly is a bad idea.

  4. Self reporting of a felony would not happen by frith01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You have a choice, allow organizations to report the data breach, or have them cover it up to avoid the penalty.

    [ Why would anyone report a data breach when that means they would face jail time ? ]

    Remember, the odds of an external entity finding out about the data breach is extremely small (except for the ones taking the data of course ).

    1. Re:Self reporting of a felony would not happen by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Easy, make the peanalty dependent upon the companies handling of the situation. If the company comes clean the penalty is X dollars per victim. If the company attempts to hide the situation the penalty is 100 * X dollars per victem.

    2. Re:Self reporting of a felony would not happen by sampson7 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I completely disagree with your assertion that a company would not self-report. As a compliance officer with a major international corp (albeit in a different field), we are often faced with the difficult question of whether to self-report a potential violation. We are generally faced with three options when a potential violation arises:

      1. Self-report the violation, fix the problem/install appropriate controls, get the "credit" for active compliance, take the medicine and move on.

      2. Document the potential violation internally, fix the problem/install the appropriate controls, establish the paper record documenting the potential violation, but explaining why it is arguably not a violation or that there is no affirmative duty to self-report.

      3. Actively attempt to conceal the violation or ignore a clear legal requirement to self-report.

      Pop quiz! Which of these three "options" could lead to massive fines by the appropriate governmental regulator, share-holder lawsuits, top managers being fired and even the destruction of your company?

      Anybody who thinks a potential release of information could not bite you in the ass needs to imagine the type of risk/reward analysis the company goes through. I can easily envision the following scenario. Company loses critical personal information. Company actively hides the loss and/or actively ignores legal obligation to self-report. The thief attempts to use the stolen credit card numbers/whatever. Thief is caught. Thief tells police where he acquired the information. Police investigate the breach. Internal emails/IMs reveal that the company knew about the breach but did nothing. Company faces multiple class action lawsuits from: (1) the people harmed by the breach of their personal information; and (2) shareholders who should have been informed in the quarterly SEC-required disclosures that the Company faced a potential liability.

      Now some fly-by-night company might reach a different cost-benefit analysis. But any large company should immediately recognize that the potential harm of trying to cover something like this up. When you're talking about a bank or large medical company? Would you as CEO or internal compliance officer risk millions or even billions on something that is so likely to become discovered? Even if the chances are 10,000-to-1 against the breach ever coming to light? Frankly, the rewards are simply not worth the risk.

  5. Hard to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Almost any system can be hacked by someone sooner or later. If a crack was found in SSH that allowed a root shell, would the person responsible for the code be held responsible? or the guy who admins the server?

    1. Re:Hard to say by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem ISN'T hackers and thieves,the problem is rampant King Kong sized stupidity. How about we only bust them for gross negligence? Let's face it,it is these morons that have thousands of customer records on unencrypted laptops,or leave an unencrypted backup tape sitting in the parking lot in their car,or the idiots at my local phone company who put a bunch of machines on the curb without bothering to wipe the drives first.

      I think we can all agree that there is a BIG difference between taking precautions and getting hacked and these brain trusts that don't even bother to show even the tiniest bit of common sense. We need to have penalties for the ones that don't even bother to try,otherwise why would they spend the money on security when they aren't really going to be punished when they screw everybody? And I agree with the earlier poster that there needs to be a time limit for most of this stuff. While a previous poster used the example of an insurance company the simple fact is there are way too many companies that hang onto every scrap of information that comes there way for years. We should come up with a set of criteria that has to be met before you are allowed to keep data for longer than the transaction requires. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  6. Re:Yea! by corsec67 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Next step:
    Actually punishing companies that break laws, in such a way they can't just dissolve the front and start with a new name and the same people.

    --
    If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
  7. Yes by sm62704 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not only should there be criminal damages, but attempting to keep the thieft secret should carry an even heavier penalty.

    There should also be, upon conviction in criminal court, monetary redress for the poor slobs whose data was compromised, and it should be a LOT more than it cost the compromised person. Say, enough to buy a new car.

    Why can't we have the death penalty for corporations? The standard answer is "all those people who get trhrown out of work", but there IS a death penalty for corporations; ENRON suffered the death penalty, but the people in charge (at least the ones that didn't go to prison) suffered no penalty at all.

    How about a "death penalty" where the victims are given the company itself?

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:Yes by oyenstikker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Won't fly. The shareholders will then claim to be victims as well.

      --
      The masses are the crack whores of religion.
  8. as simple as due diligence ,,, by Brigadier · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If your going to store my private data without my expressed permission. In other words I didn't specifically request it (as opposed to having it thrown in as a caveat on some user agreement). Then you are responsible for all mishaps that may be incurred by your actions.

    If I ask you to save my data then I accept that I am giving permission to said company as is. In other words it now is my responsibility to look over all disclosures.

    The inherent problem however is there is no means of specifically identifying a person. first and last name no longer work. you can assign them a unique code but most people get tired of bringing around and ID card for every business they do business with. Thus you are forced to use a.) a phone number which is subject to change, social security ID, or credit card number.

    So though I do believe they should be held responsible for negligence and saving information without expressed permission. I do think the credit industry as a whole is responsible. There needs to be a fixed ID system which is separate from the credit system (as in credit score) and governmental ID systems.

    This one ID bullshit needs to stop. Each person should have a superficial ID which can be changed at request. A credit ID which requires in person transactions (loan etc) a government ID and a health care ID. all of which should be maintained by different independent agencies.
     

    1. Re:as simple as due diligence ,,, by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There needs to be a fixed ID system which is separate from the credit system (as in credit score) and governmental ID systems.

      Part of the problem is just that everyone wants everything to be easy, and "easy" doesn't get along well with "secure". Like with social security numbers-- they're being treated as a piece of secure information in order to identify people (which it wasn't intended to do). But then as a result, you have to give it to people *all the time*. Because so many things require your social security number and people are encouraged to give it so freely, it's effectively out in the open, and not a piece of secure information.

      But then what ID can I give someone online for an incidental purchase that won't effectively be "out in the open" after a couple of purchases? The only thing I can think of is if there were some sort of public key encryption signature that was issued to each person. That would possibly be cool, but then you'd have to come up with a trustworthy system to issue those keys/certificates, and you have to trust someone to administer to that system.

      It gets complicated fast. And ultimately, most people won't put up with anything that inconveniences them or requires them to be vigilant

    2. Re:as simple as due diligence ,,, by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What I don't understand is why ID is needed in the first place. It seems to be tied to the idea of the merchant making a charge against the purchaser's bank account, which means the merchant needs to identify the purchaser to make the charge. But why does the merchant need to make the charge? Instead, have the merchant provide a merchant ID and transaction number to the consumer, who then logs into their bank's site and initiates a payment to the merchant for the transaction. Nobody can initiate a payment without knowing the credentials to my bank's site, which I don't ever have to provide to anybody so I can keep them secure (modulo attacks on the bank itself or me falling for a phishing scheme). If the merchant doesn't ship until they receive the payment they don't have to verify the address, anybody trying to initiate a purchase in my name won't have my bank credentials and won't be able to initiate a payment from my account. And all the information the merchant needs to keep on file long-term is the payment number my bank gave them as part of the payment transaction, which the bank can tie to my account on it's end if the merchant needs to do a refund or anything. All this should be fairly simple, it's just standard EFT initiated by the payer instead of the payee.

  9. Re:Yea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Exactly right. Nobody.

    At the very least, they should be held civilly liable. We should be suing every last one of these MFing companies that hand our personal data over to criminals to the fullest extent provided by law. There should be statutes on the books allowing for statutory damages to be awarded when our personal data is negligently handled.

    And where are the amulance chasers in all this? Why aren't there ads on my TV for shysters who will take on these cases?

    Follow the money... who's getting paid? The politicians. Barack Obama, John McCain...doesn't matter who you vote for, because they both have their hands in the same pockets!

  10. Fix the bank and lending system instead by lena_10326 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stop giving out credit to every person who walks up to a cash register. Stop warehousing critical information that can be used to apply for credit. Stop approving credit based on only Name/SSN/Address. Stop this culture of unlimited, unchecked credit to anyone, any time, any place.

    The problem is the lending system, not the fact your data is leaked. In web terms, credit applications need to be double opt-in, not single opt-in.

    --
    Camping on quad since 1996.
    1. Re:Fix the bank and lending system instead by db32 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Clearly you are confused. If we take away the ability for people to spend themselves into oblivion with easy credit the terrorists win! I want the prices of everything on the market artificially inflated by peoples spending habits of imaginary money. I am simply not satisfied until I have to pay $50 for a $5 item because the supply and demand curve is completely screwed due to the massive influx of imaginary money into the consumers hands!

      You must be some kind of dirty pinko commie bedwetter if you want to stop the massive debt spending credit system.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    2. Re:Fix the bank and lending system instead by lena_10326 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      100% on-topic. Data breach => identify theft => credit and lending fraud. Fix it at the tail end by making the data useless to fraudsters. Think it through next time, mod. Just think it through.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
  11. Criminal Charges? by db32 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure...while we are at it lets put a cop in jail every time someone in their city gets mugged, murdered, raped, etc.

    I will be exiting the field the moment some kind of stupidity like what is suggested goes in place. I have a family, and I have no intention spending time in jail being a scapegoat for something like this. It is stupid to expect an individual to be held accountable criminally for something like this. Why should I spend time in jail or face fines personally because Vendor X couldn't be bothered to employ better programmers or test their stuff. Nevermind there will ALWAYS be vulnerabilities. Or maybe I go to jail because some worker brought in an infected USB photo frame. The only way you can really secure the desktop computer completely from the user is to cut the power cable and give them a pad of paper and a pen.

    That said...I think there should be something to "encourage" companies to actually invest the resources in protecting that data, or just to stop collecting it. Seems to me not collecting it is far easier and more viable in many many cases. I agree that there is a problem in the value that data provides the company and their lack of "encouragement" to protect it. The notion of holding already overtaxed administrators criminally liable will only make the problem worse. The field will shrink even further and I imagine many of the competent ones will find work elsewhere not wanting to be a whipping boy under idiotic laws like this.

    --
    The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    1. Re:Criminal Charges? by blindd0t · · Score: 2, Informative

      That said...I think there should be something to "encourage" companies to actually invest the resources in protecting that data, or just to stop collecting it.

      Chargebacks (card holders disputing charges with their credit card company) are good incentive. Ultimately, it is the vendor that looses money when a user claims a charge is unrecognized and the vendor is unable to provide sufficient proof that it was a legitimate purchase (though the CVV2 number helps the vendors here). To add to that, even more incentive is provided by the banks because they keep track of the unresolved chargebacks on all merchant accounts. If they find your merchant account has had too many unresolved chargebacks per month, they'll typically send you a notice informing you that you have 30 days to find another bank, and setting that up to continue your sales is generally next to impossible to achieve. It is, in some cases, possible to pay the bank extra money to keep the merchant account active for a bit longer, however.

      Seems to me not collecting it is far easier and more viable in many many cases.

      Indeed, it is. A vendor's ability to meet PCI DSS standards is much simpler when card data is not retained. However, there are some cases, such as automatic recurring payments, where storing card data is appropriate. At that point, additional measures are obviously necessary.

      Personally, since the monetary liability ultimately comes back to the vendor, I don't feel criminal charges are necessary. That, and it seems like it may be simple to exploit such a system to make money suing vendors via charges designed to appear fraudulent. Additionally, many of the chargeback requests are often people simply not recognizing charges (i.e. they didn't remember making the purchase, and/or the card processing was done by a third party on behalf of the company selling the product). Now, fraudulent use of retained credit card data is an obvious crime. But provided a vendor has not abused their data and has taken the appropriate measures to meet the PCI DSS guidelines, I'd say they should be in the clear in terms of criminal charges. However, I may agree that reasonably increasing chargeback fees would significantly increase incentive.

    2. Re:Criminal Charges? by mistahkurtz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's my thoughts on it. I don't agree that the IT department should be held responsible, unless it proves to be through the IT department's negligence that the information was lost or stolen.

      i think the focus should be on management external to the IT department. I have worked in Enterprise IT Sales for a few years now, and am still shocked on an almost daily basis by how easily funds are denied for absolutely crucial projects.

      If your CIO, CFO, CEO, Compliance Officer, Security Officer, etc is aware of a risk, and chooses not to act, the fault is theirs, not the IT department that was told to play with rubber bands, old hardware, free software, and tin foil to piece a robust security infrastructure together.

      IBM's ISS costs up to around $200,000 for a good-sized implementation, and may be the only *truly* full-sized security solution available on the private market (offerings from McAfee and so-on shouldn't even be mentioned). The organizations that are typically collecting, storing, and losing important and sensitive user data are typically organizations that can afford, or should find a way to afford such security infrastructure. (Are you telling me that S/L/F government, financial institutions, major telecom companies, etc etc etc etc can't afford a non-joke security system? Are you telling me that they can't enact serious security policies and punish ignorance, laziness, or apathy?)

      Seems to me that spending $200,000 for a full, robust security system, up front, far outweighs the potential lawsuits, out-of-court settlements and negative publicity that can follow a serious breach or loss of data.

      The power lies in the accounting office. With the people who get a bigger bonus for cutting expenses. And this might make sense when you're talking about such things as paperclips, copy paper, toilet paper, etc. But when you're talking about the very things that keeps your business in existence, and maintains your reputation with your peers as well as your customers, shouldn't there be another process?

      If someone says to the IT manager, Network Security manager, etc, that "I understand your pain, and while you may feel that you need a full IPS that tests the network for flaws, dynamically, you're going to have to stick with a handful of WatchGuard appliances, because I, and nobody above me, cares", then I say blame that person and anyone else involved in the apathy or ignorance.

      I'm done.

      --
      not only is time travel possible, it's irrelevant.
  12. Not IT, but business by Ohrion · · Score: 5, Informative

    I disagree with the prospect of placing blame directly on IT/IS. I do believe however that much of the blame needs to be placed at the company level. Many times the risks are known ahead of time by both IT and the business, but the business has decided not to spend the money to fix the problem and have signed off on the risk. Sometimes there is nothing further the IT department can do without the express permission of business. In fact, this is fairly frequent.

    I also disagree with this blame being in the form of a crime, unless it is negligence or gross negligence. Fines maybe, but jail-time no. The exception to this, is if the theft is an inside job. Of course, there are already laws to deal with that.

  13. Possibly too far by avatar4d · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am not sure that criminal charges are necessarily needed. Who would get the jail time? I mean does the SA have to prove that he recommended better security to the PHB? Does management automatically go directly to jail?

    I might be happy enough with the company being responsible for any identity theft of the people listed in their data. Maybe only for the next 5 or 10 years, but if their credit starts getting messed up, then the company which lost the data should be responsible to take the blame and also partially (split between the bank and the company) financially responsible.

    Even that suggestion has issues though. People will then fraud the company that lost their data by pretending that their identities were stolen and that someone is purchasing things in their name. All the while it was that person themselves.

    Regardless, I think the whole identity/information theft thing is more complicated than most (non-technical/non-business) people take into account.

    --
    Confucius say: "Man who associates with smarter men than himself is smarter than the men he associates with."
  14. Code violations by Brain-Fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most forms of construction must adhere to a code. Why should software be any different?

    It would be nice, IMO, if we could formulate a set of minimum requirements for any kind of personal-data-handling software (including codes for operating procedures). Things like "all passwords in the system must use strong encryption" and "backups of the data cannot be stored on personal laptops" and the like.

    Then legally require businesses to higher some ratio of software developers who have passed a code certification and logged sufficient hours under the apprenticeship of a certified master, and cite them if any such developers blow the whistle on them.

    It is not a perfect solution. It has problems with implementation. And of course M$ will do its darndest to ensure that codes require the use of its software. But it it is still better than the situation we have now.

  15. Worrisome... by tekiegreg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Forgive me for not RTFA in advance but...

    I'm a developer, I've worked on many an app that has stored credit cards, social security numbers, and other pieces of juicy data. I've always acted with integrity and you'll never find a credit card or social security number posted on the Internet of my own free will. Generally I take best efforts to secure this information. Using appropriate technology such as hashing, encryption, access controls and authentication as appropriate for the information, etc. Documenting as throughly as possible to make sure that nothing happens, and what to do to further protect things.

    Despite all this, if my programming is ever compromised, am I now jail potential? I'm finding a new job...

    --
    ...in bed
    1. Re:Worrisome... by not-my-real-name · · Score: 2, Informative

      I work with aviation software. The documentation, testing, and software is all overseen by a DER (designated engineering representative), a person authorized by the FAA to approve things.

      If there's a problem with an airplane and it turned out that he approved something inappropriately, he would be facing some serious personal liability.

      Just so you know, there are jobs with serious penalties for negligence. And there are people who do these jobs.

      --
      un-ALTERED reproduction and dissimination of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED
  16. Careful with that word 'crime' by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Leaked data, by itself, isn't a crime in this regard. No harm comes to anyone until someone with criminal intent actually does something to it. Not counting, of course, the harm of feeling appropriately uneasy as you wonder if/when someone will do something with it following a leak - but I'm not sure that sort of anxiety rises to the level of crime on the part of the hotel chain... you could have the same anxiety about whether or not someone holding your data will at some point have a leak that hasn't even happened yet, and likely never will.

    There's a reason that someone who sues McDonalds over the hot coffee she dumps in her own lap doesn't ask a DA to go after them criminally. Likewise with slipping on a wet restroom floor that doesn't have one of those "caution" signs put up by the maintenance crew. Being bad (or even, unlucky) at your job could well be grounds for a civil suit, but it isn't usually - and shouldn't usually - be considered an actual crime. That's pretty dangerous stuff, there.

    When some wackadoo in full-on tinfoil hat mode brings a gun or a knife to work and kills the PHB he's hated for years, and is now convinced is working for Alien Overlords... is the employer who didn't see that coming an accessory to the crime that was committed, for having failed to prevent it?

    If data is leaked, and no crime (based on the use of that data) is ever committed, and the laptop gets recovered with no expectation of it having been compromised... did a crime take place, not counting the person who ripped off the laptop from an employee's luggage? Is the employer actually a criminal because that happened? The opportunities for Really Bad Precedents here are vasty.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  17. Is it even illegal? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Thing is...is it even illegal at all, to divulge customer data?

    I mean, I know HIPPA takes care of issues with respect to people's medical records, but, I don't think that there are actually any laws against the release of people's data. If there were, there would be a whole lot less of companies out there that held and traded in such information.

    It is a crime to break into a computer to gather this data. But, I don't think at this point, in the US it is a crime to lose it.

    If I happened to have a database of people's information, and I want to freely publish it, I don't actually think there is a statute against me doing that.

    If there is, can someone cite it or give links on this?

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:Is it even illegal? by AvitarX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When someone costs you money through negligence (i.e giving away or sloppily handling your data) you can sue them.

      This would apply at the very least to Credit Cards (if used) and social security numbers (if they are used).

      If the cost to you is nothing it is definitely a different issue.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:Is it even illegal? by Stellian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If I happened to have a database of people's information, and I want to freely publish it, I don't actually think there is a statute against me doing that.

      No there's not - this the "problem" the original submitter want's to solve. I personally have huge issues about criminalizing any form of free-speech.
      The identity of a person is not a secret, or a thing that can be stolen. The very way that identity works is by making it public:
      "Hello, I'm John / Oh Hi John, I'm Susan"
      Now if John is coy about revealing his identity for fear that Susan might open up a bank account in his name, the whole use of identity crumbles. I have nothing against anonymity, John can remain anonymous if he so desires. But the notion that you must somehow "protect" identity by keeping it a secret is a stupid trick that harms the usefulness of identity and our society as whole. The artificial distinction of allowing trusted people (banks, the phone company) access to it, while keeping it a secret for the general public (that includes identity thieves) is childish. As it is the proposal above, of criminalizing the act of compiling a list of people's identity using public data - as explained above, all identity data is public to some extent, by definition; if it's not public, it does not identify you.
      Far for me to claim that it's safe to post your personal data on Slashdot. In this warped world we are living in, there is the danger of so called "identity theft".
      The term of "identity theft" is a copious misnomer perpetrated on the public by the banking industry. The identity of a person cannot be stolen, only duplicated or impersonated. The real crime here is identity fraud. The distinction might not seem much, but it's of key importance: it shifts the victimization from the impersonated person to the banker/stock agent/realtor/whatever that accepts the fake identity.
      After all, why should *I* pay for the fact that some bank lends money to someone who says it's me ? The bank has little incentive to properly authenticate the guy: they want as much customers as possible; the problem of "ID theft" is an externality. Meanwhile, I can do nothing to protect myself: my identity is in hundreds of public and private databases, out of my control: it's how I register to vote, how I get medical care, and how I install an Internet connection. I cannot function in this society without making my identity public, so It's unreasonable to require me to protect my identity from "theft".
      You can find an excellent written article about the distinction between identity theft and fraud here, by noted security expert Bruce Schneier:
      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/04/mitigating_iden.html
      The solution against identity fraud is making the enablers pay for it, breaking the externality. For example, a maximal 15-day clearing period of any wrong information on your credit report, after which the bank can be charged with libel.
      Devising more intricate ways to keep our identity data "secret" is just band-aid.

      (I have only approached the problem from the identity fraud perspective; I fully agree there are other reasons to wanting to have your data private, such as, well... privacy)

    3. Re:Is it even illegal? by skelly33 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the digital world should be treated quite like the physical world.

      There should be a clear distinction between the liability of a company who has made reasonable efforts according to typical industry practices (a bank with a brick & mortar facility, armed guard, surveillance, and timed locking vault) and one who makes no effort at all (keeps customer assets in a cardboard box marked "keep out" in a Public Storage facility). Despite all efforts, no system is completely secure - this is slashdot: you KNOW that.

      What if the system administrator who allowed the system to be compromised were the one on the hook? The fact is that the bad guys are ALWAYS determined to find something that the good guys haven't thought of and eventually will get in and make off with the materials. At some point you have to stop looking for someone else's ass to burn and just chase the crooks themselves.

  18. How long data is needed by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm of the opinion that the liability should depend in part on whether the data's being kept longer than needed for the transaction or purpose it was provided for or not. For instance, if I buy something from an on-line merchant they need to keep my name and address on file at least long enough to ship my item, and almost certainly for the length of time I'm allowed to return the item for a refund or replacement. They need to keep my credit-card number on file long enough to authorize it, possibly long enough to settle the charges (depending on how they're set up with their clearing house), and possibly as long as I'm allowed to ask for a refund (if for instance the clearing house requires the card number to credit the money back). When a company keeps information around longer than needed, they should be held to a higher standard since now it's their choice that the data's being kept. And "needed" should be determined by the purpose or transaction the data was provided for, not by what the company wants to do. When I provide a billing/shipping address for a purchase, I'm not providing it so the company can do better advertising later. If they insist that I create a profile and leave that information on file permanently for their convenience or benefit, they should be taking more responsibility for it's security than if they're keeping it just long enough to do what I asked of them and then discarding it.

  19. Nominal "crime": leaving the keys in the ignition by RobertB-DC · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In Texas (and in other states, it seems), it is against the law to leave your keys in the ignition. I haven't yet figured out exactly what the purpose is for that law, except to remind people that leaving your keys in the car invites theft. I certainly haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted for the "crime".

    Perhaps a similar nominal criminal sanction should be in place for the company that leaves the keys to my identity in their corporate "ignition"? The penalty would be a slap on the wrist, or less -- because a stiff penalty would lead to coverups. But the law would still be on the books.

    That would allow the bean counters to add an item on the balance sheet for "secure client data -- compliance required by law". That would carry more weight than "secure client data -- compliance with 'best practices' guidelines".

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  20. Erm... we already do by jimicus · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the UK (and, I believe, Europe), anyway.

    The Data Protection Act briefly states:

    • Data may only be used for the specific purposes for which it was collected.
    • Data must not be disclosed to other parties without the consent of the individual whom it is about, unless there is legislation or other overriding legitimate reason to share the information (for example, the prevention or detection of crime). It is an offence for Other Parties to obtain this personal data without authorisation.
    • Individuals have a right of access to the information held about them, subject to certain exceptions (for example, information held for the prevention or detection of crime).
    • Personal information may be kept for no longer than is necessary.
    • Personal information may not be transmitted outside the EEA unless the individual whom it is about has consented or adequate protection is in place, for example by the use of a prescribed form of contract to govern the transmission of the data.
    • Subject to some exceptions for organisations that only do very simple processing, and for domestic use, all entities that process personal information must register with the Information Commissioner.
    • Entities holding personal information are required to have adequate security measures in place. Those include technical measures (such as firewalls) and organisational measures (such as staff training).

    It's not clear which country the Best Western incident took place in but if the systems were hosted in the UK and they processed bookings from UK customers, it looks like a fairly cut and dried breach of that law to me.

    There is, however, the minor issue that I don't think anyone's ever been successfully prosecuted for not having inadequate security systems in place...

  21. Data Protection by Antony+T+Curtis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The USA needs something like the Data Protection Act which the UK has... It gives individuals rights to access and correct data held about them and it mandates that organizations must take adequate steps to protect and secure the data. Failure to do so is a criminal offense.

    IANAL... If any of Best Western's compromised data details reservations at any of Best Western's hotels in the United Kingdom, they may have opened themselves up for prosecution under this law. All organizations and businesses in the UK which may store details on more than around 500 individuals must register and adhere to the DPA. I am sure that Best Western has had more than 500 customers in their UK operations!

    --
    No sig. Move along - nothing to see here.
  22. Fifth Amendment kills that. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not only should there be criminal damages, but attempting to keep the thieft secret should carry an even heavier penalty.

    And the famous part of the Fifth Amendment hits that head on:

    "... nor shall [any person] be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, ..."

    So it's not going to happen in the US. Give it up.

    = = = =

    The people harmed are easily identified. It makes more sense for this to be a civil matter, with heavy financial penalties being paid by the company to the victims of the identity theft, rather than into government coffers.

    If the government were to legislate or rule-make the penalties and/or automate the process in corporate regulations, rather than waiting for class action suits to lay the ground rules (and line the pockets of the litigating class while the victims get pennies), so much the better. (Assuming the legislators don't just write a slap-on-the-wrist preemption law for their corporate sponsors. B-( )

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  23. Re:Yea! by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually wrong.

    The first step is to financially ruin and have real "pound me in the ass" prison terms for the executive staff that cut the IT departments budget to increase security.

    If the CEO has the fear of being raped by bubba while the CTO is told "you're next pretty boy" They will quit spending money on their company BMW's and office remodels and actually give the IT departments the funding they need to have the staff and hardware to do their FUCKING job.

    Do I seem a bit jaded?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  24. Better to go after data storage itself. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Attempting to legally define responsibility for "reasonable" security is a tricky one. You don't want a situation where corporate can, say, consistently shirk on security implementation, then hang the poor bastard who had to make the best of a bad job out to dry when the time comes(not that that would ever happen, no, definitely not, never). On the other hand, having a checklist of "OMG Industry Best Practice!!!1!~) ass-covering steps is pretty much writing the script for security theatre.

    I suspect that going after the type, quantity, and duration of data storage is a much more productive avenue. For any given commercial relationship, certain data storage will be necessary, for a certain amount of time. Not much we can do about that. Anything beyond that level, though, should be open to stiff liability in the event of a breach. You want the advantage of storing extra data? You take the risks, like it or shove off. The trouble(particularly bad in the US, though hardly good elsewhere) is that there is essentially nothing, other than the low and falling costs of storage, counterbalancing the desire to hoard as much customer(no, I'm not going to say "consumer") data as possible. Make anybody who stores more than the necessary minimum of data liable for damage caused by breach or inaccuracy and the problem should be considerably reduced.


    Even if the above seems, shall we say, unrealistic, there are some basic steps we should have taken ages ago. FFS, companies that have data stolen aren't even obligated to warn people in some jurisdictions!(See the ChoicePoint debacle a while back, they warned California customers, because the evil commie nanny state had the crazy idea that people ought to be warned when somebody fucks up and gives their data to criminals; but everybody else just had to puzzle it out) That is absolutely insane.

  25. It's the responsibility of the people who created by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's the responsibility of the people who created this system that people cannot reasonably opt out of.

    With "drug laws" as they are, there are limits to the amount of cash anyone can carry without it potentially being seized by cops. You can't pay for everything in gold can you? With the majority of banks out there simply refusing to do business with you for not having a social security number, it is essentially impossible for people to exist in society without allowing your identity to be entered into various systems and databases. The credit and banking system has created this potential for abuse of our identities and it is the credit and banking system that should be held accountable for the abuse of the system that we are all but involuntarily required to be a participant in.

    Furthermore, since so many businesses feel it is in in their interests to collect our information and put it at risk, they should also maintain responsibility for its abuse when it leaves their control. Once again, as a condition for doing business and ultimately for leading a "normal" mainstream life, we are essentially powerless to opt out and are otherwise defenseless and unable to protect ourselves from what may happen when mismanagement and abuse of our trust occurs.

    What a great system they have where they reap all the benefits and we burden all the risk? I think it's more appropriate that they bear the risk along with the benefit. If they want to have the benefit of collecting private information, they should bear the consequences when the information is abused as a result of their own abuse or negligence.

  26. Storing credit cards ... by kbahey · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Part of the issue is storing identifying information, the other issue is storing credit card info. There should be no excuse for storing credit card info.

    I was at Home Depot (Canada), returning something I bought earlier, and I reached for my wallet to give the guy the credit card to refund the item. He said, "Oh, we don't need that Sir, it is all stored in our system". I said: "You store credit card data on your computer"? He says: "Oh, we don't have access to it".

    The point is, not the employees having access to it, but the data getting copied or stolen by criminals, such as the Best Western case.

    Some credit card gateways provide a token based approach to recurring charges, such as monthly subscriptions, but it is not a standard that can be used everywhere with any card, and any merchant.

  27. Re:Nominal "crime": leaving the keys in the igniti by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Informative

    In Texas (and in other states, it seems), it is against the law to leave your keys in the ignition. I haven't yet figured out exactly what the purpose is for that law, ...

    It reduces car theft, thus reducing the load on law enforcement and insurance rates. It also makes it harder to steal getaway cars and increases the likelihood of catching the perps before they do something like rob a bank, reducing that victimization.

    Or at least that's the sort of theory I'd expect to be behind the rule.

    (At least one rural western state has had a requirement that any gun carried in a car must be loaded - so it can be used by the driver to defend against its own theft. They'd had a lot of trouble with walkaways from prison jacking good samaritans who rescued them in the desert.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  28. [Citation needed] by jabithew · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The thing is, the corporations are deemed too valuable to be punished. THIS is what should change.

    Seriously, what the hell? Consider the HSWA (1974), the Environmental Protection Act (1990) and the Data Protection Act (1998), all of which carry the possibility of fines and a jail term if breached?

    --
    All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
  29. Consequences a must by wshwe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Companies will only stop allowing mass identity theft if there are definite consequences for their failures.

  30. Civil vs Criminal? The semantics of should/must... by NetSettler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This would be a great civil class action case, but criminal? ...

    When I was doing standards work, I was introduced to the notion that only "must" and "shall" (i.e., imperative words) mean something you have to do. Words like "should" are really synonymous with "don't really have to at all" in standards lingo. They just mean you have to answer for something in words when someone calls you on it, but ultimately that no one can force you.

    So too the real difference between civil and criminal is that civil means you can buy your way out pf doing the wrong thing and criminal means you really have to do the right thing. So people can choose.

    Asking whether civil or criminal law applies isn't the thing to do. The thing to do is to ask whether this is really something that has to be done or whether it's ok to just let people do the wrong thing and then occasionally pay a fine. If you don't mind having your identity stolen and you think maybe courts will operate efficiently in your favor to reimburse you with extra dollars to spare for your trouble whenever it happens, you definitely want the civil penalty approach. Or if you have a magic way to have the problem not happen to you and you just don't care that it happens to someone else who is in the unfortunate set that you have excluded you from. But otherwise, I see no option other than to say criminal.

    That doesn't mean I think criminal law should be retroactively applied. It just means I think business people take very seriously the criminal law, and that if this is on that level of magnitude, then that'st he approach. But I'd decide first just the question of whether this is a "should" or a "must". The rest will just follow from that. Present attitudes in business tells you businesses think it's a "should" (meaning "don't really have to at all"). The question is, does the public agree? For the public to establish "civil penalties only" is, I suspect, the same as saying the public agrees it's a "should"--a mere cost to be managed, often after-the-fact.

    --

    Kent M Pitman
    Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

  31. Which IT person would you blame? by LtTickles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously, having worked in IT Security for some time and done numerous "compliance" projects. Compliance takes time and costs money. Too many times I have been told "we just don't have the money for that this year." Corporations commonly engage in the 'risk' game where they risk it for as long as they can. Until the bank stops taking their credit cards (in the case of PCI Compliance) or there is an actual public breach - the risk is quite low. I'm not against criminal charges but they should be levied on a corporate officer and not the rank and file IT person. This person has zero responsibility for the financial decisions required to keep data safe. I make recommendations until I am blue in the face but until management realizes the risk to them - they won't touch it with someone else's ten foot pole.

  32. Data Loss Insurance by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wouldn't this lead to all companies needing to purchase a data loss insurance policy, much like doctors need malpractice insurance? The end result would be richer lawyers and insurance companies, more wasted time in court, and companies not needing to change because they have insurance.

    I do think these companies need to be held responsible, but I think that they are already afraid of the PR hit from losing data, and their IT managers should already be afraid for their jobs if a data breach occurs. I really doubt that this sort of law is going to help.

  33. Risk management by ppanon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Criminal blame won't make a difference unless it automatically applies at the top corporate level. Otherwise, lower-level grunts will be served up as sacrificial lambs. The only method that can be used to justify to management having appropriate security expenditure is to attach a solid price tag to bad security practices to offset the price tag of good practices. That means large and immediate monetary penalties for loss of information (indexed for inflation of course). That way management won't decide to risk fighting any class-action lawsuits for 10 years until they can retire, leaving their successors to deal with the mess. If you can lay out to management "You have 100,000 accounts, and a security breach is going to cost you $X and your current practices have a high chance of a security breach in the next few years", it's a lot more concrete than if I talk about the historic average cost of security breaches in unrelated industries (based on contacting stakeholders, PR, etc., after a breach). Put a solid price tag on it and companies will either adjust, or go under faster and prevent further loss of client information due to continued poor practices.

    --
    Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
  34. What is Identity Theft? by cdrguru · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, according to the FBI, this includes all forms of credit card fraud. This is mostly why "identity theft" is getting so much attention and seems to be growing by leaps and bounds.

    I have been subjected to credit card fraud many times, as have many people I have known. I have yet to meet anyone that has experenced any loss, even the supposed $50 that you might be liable for. Zero loss, get a new card and move on. Sometimes a minor hassle.

    The sort of "identity theft" that most people associate with the term is where someone obtains credit under false pretenses. I don't know what the actual incidence of this is and because of the FBI combining it with credit card fraud, we will probably never know the true impact of this. What I want to know is how often this is really happening and has anyone, ever, been a victim of something beyond credit card fraud because of one of these disclosures.

    I don't see any point to trying to make a bigger deal out of it if there have in fact been zero occurrences where this information has been used to someone's detriment.

  35. why even use laptops? use Citrix terminals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about it's illegal for a company to put that sort of data onto a laptop?

    Why do many of these people even need laptops? They work in a cubicle/office sitting down. They then go home and work at a desk sitting down. Set up two RDesktop terminals: one on the corporate LAN, and one that VPNs in.

    You get exact same work environment and your data is safe on the server, with everything being encrypted with AES.

    Data is compromised only when the person's account information is stolen (stealing the dumb terminal doesn't even help you).

    For some people this won't work because of the ego trip involved in getting a laptop (and some people do actually need laptops), but others will appreciate the fact that they don't have to lug this thing around.

    And if you can standardize on a particular model of unit you can perhaps throw in smart card logins.

  36. Re:Yea! by greenbird · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The first step is to financially ruin and have real "pound me in the ass" prison terms for the executive staff that cut the IT departments budget to increase security.

    The only problem is that the executive staff won't be the ones going to jail. I guarantee it won't be any executives. It'll be the poor overworked IT guy doing 6 different jobs and is on call 24/7/364 (he gets Christmas off) who ends up with all the blame. And then the executive staff will give themselves a raise for doing such a good job getting to the bottom of the security breach and taking such decisive actions in making sure it'll never happen again.

    --
    Who is John Galt?
  37. I think it's clear who is to blame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oh for fuck's sake. If you're going to blame anyone, how about blaming the people resposible?

    Some jackass shows up at a bank, gives my name and social security number, gets a loan, and then the bank harasses me for their money. Sounds like the bank is the one to blame. They're the dumbasses who didn't adequately determine who they were dealing with, and they're the ones who sought to ruin me financially by trying to collect money I didn't owe them.

    The problem isn't that companies are leaking my social security number, the problem is that I can't tell everyone my social security number because a lot of dumbass companies assume it to be a PIN number and will make my life hell if anyone else happens to know it.

  38. Re:Yea! by HiThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Major investors should be punished, yes. Minor stock-holders...no more than losing their investment. Directors, yes. Corporate executives, yes.

    It should be handled analogously to fiscal malfeasance. ... Or rather as fiscal malfeasance should be handled.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  39. Re:SSNs do not get "recycled" by Foofoobar · · Score: 2, Informative

    True. I just reread the SSA standings thanks to your comment. My original basis was due to their numbering scheme; the first 3 digits of an SSN is a regional code, the second two is a grouping number and the last 4 is the serial number (this is your actual number). Based on that, the logic was that given living and dead persons, since the original creation of the SSN system, they would have had to reassign to stay within the regional assignment system. But according to the SSA, they admit to fudging on regional so as to avoid reassigning; if one regional code is full, they just start assigning you to another regional code. So if the regional code of New York is all out of SSN's, they'll just assign you to New Jersey.

    --
    This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  40. Criminal charges on the VICTIM?!?! by suck_burners_rice · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That makes NO sense! I know that theoretically it's the company's responsibility to secure the data, but if some 1337z h4x04z figure out some crazy way into the system, then why should the company's top people face criminal charges? If you don't want to risk your information getting stolen, then don't give it to anyone. The company is also a victim in this case. Charging the victim is like this: You have bars on your windows and locks on your door. One night, a burglar busts in someone and jacks your PS3. You get charged with a crime. Does that make sense? No. And neither does this.

    --
    McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
  41. Jailtime is difficult. by rew · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you try to jail the CEO, he will say it's the CTO's job to secure the systems. He in turn blames the head-of-IT-ops, who in turn blames the lonely sysop. So who's going to jail? All of them? The top? The bottom?

    If YOU do something bad, YOU have to pay the price. We've got several gradations here: pay a fine, go to jail, both in different amounts.

    If a company does something bad, what can we do to make it pay? Well, exactly that: Make it pay.

    Now, if YOU know that a fine for XYZ is $1, and it's easier for you to do XYZ than something else, then you'll easily do XYZ. Besides that the chances of getting caught are usually small, the fine is such that you can easily pay up. If you have to pay $10000 as the fine most of us will think twice, and be really careful.

    In the case of a big company, $10000 is nothing. So fines you put on companies should be proportional to their size. Faking profits or losses is easy. So it should be proportional to their turnover.

    Here in Europe, MicroSoft got fined EUR 1 billion for ignoring antitrust laws. This is an amount that even a company like MicroSoft feels.

    With several situations, legally someone is responsible. But after they have "paid" in whatever way that is, they might then be able to hold someone else responsible. For example, if I buy a stereo here in The Netherlands, I've got warranty service from the shop. They can claim: "factory warranty: 1 year" all they want, but the law gives me the right to ask the shop to fix problems in the product during a "reasonable time" no matter what they claim. (i.e. warranty: 1 week will not work either!).

    So, if a company pays a fine, and finds that this evidently the fault of a certain employee, they can sue that employee afterwards.

    The problem of scale then kicks in. If the company pays a $1M fine, but this is evidently the fault of precisely one employee. (Say he was told not to do X, but he did so anyway, finding clever ways to escape the regular checks of the company to see if he was complying with the order) Then how can that single employee pay the $1M "damages" to the company?