Slashdot Mirror
Oldest Skeleton In New World Discovered
Death Metal Maniac writes "Dubbed Eva de Naharon, or Eve of Naharon, the female skeleton has been dated at 13,600 years old. If that age is accurate, the skeleton along with three others found in underwater caves along the Caribbean coast of the Yucatán Peninsula could provide new clues to how the Americas were first populated. The skeletons' skulls hint that the people may not be of northern Asian descent, which would contradict the dominant theory of New World settlement. 'The shape of the skulls has led us to believe that Eva and the others have more of an affinity with people from South Asia than North Asia,' González explained."
Imposible, as every one in florida knows the world is only 6000 years old
Underwater for so long! Is she okay?
No, they found Sarah Palin's world view.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
This should be fun, and by fun, I mean a wholly depressing insight into the cognitive ability of some grown adults.
Let me know when you're done with this quote so I can use it as my sig. Thanks!
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Paleolithic?
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
Isn't it at least plausible that the group "Eva" belongs to lived in Northern Asia, despite having characteristics that we would now identify with Southern Asia? Perhaps a later group migrated in that direction, driving Eva's group over the land bridge much in the way ethnic groups worked in Europe (subsequent waves tending to push preexisting ethnic groups).
The Earth *IS* only 6,000 years old. Give or take 4.54 billion years.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Although a slightly older skeleton is news, doesn't anyone remember in Mexico?
The more I read about archaeology and ancient history, the more I think that the conventional view is as Ford called it, "bunk."
If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
I've heard one theory that the Polynesians et all actually were forced out of northern Asia to the south and the east. They walked over the bridge and floated through the oceans to all the little islands, and the New World. There, they found another people, who they had to fight to survive; being from a hostile background, they were better fighters.
So they chased the inhabitants down throughout the Americas, to the very tip of Argentina and Chile. Most of the men were killed and most of the women were taken, however several thousand took to the ocean, and floated along the West Wind Drift.. to Australia!
(The theory was based on genetic evidence that a chickens were introduced to the New World by Polynesians, and that there is a genetic trail on some human female populations in S.A. that links them to Australians.)
I know you don't approve of Chou because he's from the North, but I LOVE HIM and WE'RE GETTING MARRIED! I'm running away with him and his family, so by the time you learn how to read, I'll be gone. Chou's just bought a boat, and we're going to sail north until we find a New World to live in. Maybe one along the coast so we can surf, ya know?
I'll leave it up to you to tell Liam that I've gone. I couldn't marry a Celt anyway! All that red hair on his face? YUCK!
I know you wanted to me to stay and grow rice and stuff, but I really just want a life where I can soak up the sun and tell everyone to lighten up.... And who knows? Thousands of years from now, maybe they'll find my remains and it'll ROYALLY screw up their view of ethnic migrations, cause you and I KNOW that the only people who ever sail north and never come back are from the North. I mean, who'd be dumb enough to jump to a conclusion based on one person? AS IF!! Oh well -- as long as I'm famous, ya know?
Sorry about never seeing you again and stuff. Hugs and kisses!
Zang
So.... Within that margin of error, the earth may not have been created yet?
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
This is just a thought, and I know it's kinda radical here but is it at least possible that these might be some of very first sea fairing people and they simply got lost and discovered the Americas first? I mean, we have been tool users for a very long time, they might have made a very primitive raft, and if long ships, Egyptian sailing ships and south American boats have proven to be able to cross the Atlantic then is it so impossible that these people crossed a primitive pacific?
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
kiloyears? That sounds awfully science-y to me...
He's a witch!
has anyone even considered that some 17th century explorer is just playing a trick on everyone by having taken an old skeleton from southeast Asia and dumping it in the water...
I was playing Civilization the other day, doing an earth simulation and I was playing as Japan. One of my first strategies was to research Astronomy so that I could build Galleons and go colonize the Americas before anyone else could. Having colonized all of the islands in southern Asia (and Australia) it was just obvious what I had to do next. Clearly the early south Asians were thinking along the exact same lines.
You scientists and your crazy fossil and skeleton digging. There are simpler ways people!
Vote McCain - Vote MILF!
Have you got MILF? Vote McCain!
My personal fantasy....
I'm McCain with a really hot MILF millionaire wife (which he already has) who wants to 'experiment'. I get a MILF of a VP and THREESOME in the Whitehouse! WoooHOOO!
I am not an anthropologist, but I thought the dominant theory was that the New World was populated from various Asian populations in several waves. No one believes that it was just one group, or that it was just one wave. This finding further supports that thesis, along with other findings such as Kennewick Man in 1996.
You mean to say that the original Native Americans were really Indians after all? Or should we start calling Native Indians, Brown Americans from now on? So confused...
What would you be if you are atheist and not an evolutionist?
Scary, but that DOES go along with how I feel some Monday mornings....
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Eve of Naharon
No, just John McCain's first girlfriend. *rimshot*
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
What would you be if you are atheist and not an evolutionist?
Given the body of scientific data to backup evolution theory, I believe the correct term would be "idiot".
Is that better than the "old farts young tarts"-sex in the White House we had a few years ago?
"Dubbed Eva de Naharon..."
Huh?
"...or Eve of Naharon
Oh, ok, got it!
Crossing from South to North Asia is no more difficult, than crossing from North to South America or, indeed, from Asia to Europe — where even the recent Romans had to battle "endless" Eastern tribes.
So, the theory, that people crossed Bering's Straits into Northern America (Alaska) and then populated both continents, already assumes migrations far more distant, than a travel from Southern Asia to Norther would require...
And finally, next time you are in Cancun, ask a Yucatani Mexican, where the Mayas are from, and he'll tell you, they are related to Mongols (and by the looks of them, he may be right)... Mongolia is neither the Southern nor Northern Asia, but smack in the middle...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I miss Lucy already.
So the first people in the Americas were south asians i.e. Indians? So should we call them Indians or native americans?
Quite a few dinosaur skeletons (1e8 years) have been discovered in the "New World".
its no great mystery. the idea of land bridges is silly. if people can reach samoa and new zealand and easter island on boats and rafts, why they need a land bridge to get to alaska from kamchatka or from lappland to iceland, then greenland, then ellesmere, is silly. you don't even need boats to do that, just pack ice. want to understand how the new world was populated?
just look at a picture of icelandic pop singer bjork
looking at her picture, seeing her obvious genetic heritage, on iceland, should cue you in on the free flow of of northeast asian genes around the north pole for millenia
and of course this doesn't preclude the odd southeast asian gene influx from the occasional lucky maniac who made the trip to the south or central american west coast from easter island or hawaii
the real mystery is how people ever got to easter island, or any other highly isolated south pacific dot. you can head towards north or south america and be way off your intended course, and still make it there as long as you ar emoving very roughly in a general east west direction
but a dot in the south pacific? if one were given to random chance, that's a lot of wasted souls in outrigger canoes in watery graves. more likely, they simply followed subtle signs: fish migrations, or bird migrations, cloud formations over distant lands, guessing further outliers on island chains from deducing the general direction of mapping previously known chain islands. who knows? perhaps the colonizers of the south pacific used subtle well-observed natural clues we aren't even aware of anymore
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What would you be if you are atheist and not an evolutionist?
Well, if you didn't think any god did it or that we evolved on our own, the logical conclusion must then be that we're being manipulated by some other, non-divine being or beings. It's not entirely out of the realm of the possible that life has been created in the lab by aliens and seeded on our planet. Still, even if you don't claim evolution to be the explaination of all change it'd be pretty hard to deny any and all evolution.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The skeletons were found back in 2001 and 2002 and they were carbon dated no later than 2004, probably before that, though.
They don't say, but I suspect they're talking about the Ox Bel Ha cave system (Ox is the Mayan word for "Three" and is pronounced "Osh"), which is the largest underwater cave system in the world and it's actually something that's probably worthy of a Slashdot post in itself, if it weren't also old news.
I lived in that area for 3 years and I'm friends with 2 of the divers that discovered and mapped the Ox Bel Ha system.
The Yucatan peninsula is studded with sink holes called "cenotes". They're filled with fresh water (though there are areas where the salt water comes in and creates a salt/fresh water interface called the halocline, which looks wicked cool. It's kind of like oil and water) and look like a bunch of very circular ponds, except they're often fairly deep and interconnected by caves. Skeletons are a pretty common find in them, but most are far more recent (from the Mayan period) and are largely believed to be sacrificial.
I can't find the stories now, but I recall some stories suggesting that some of the indigenous people of South America were believed to have been descendants of lost fisherman from South-East Asia. It seems plausible that there could have been groups that arrived in Mexico as well.
There is also evidence of Polynesian contact in South America: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080729133618.htm
My mind works like lightning. One brilliant flash and it is gone.
Don't tell anyone, but we're doing the public beta stress test, so the publisher can know how many players per server he can expect. There've been some bugs and balance problems found, though, so they might push back the actual release for another billion years. Although the publisher is calling it good enough and might shove it out the door as it is.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Perhaps you too could show some respect for those who are diverse in their opinions and ideas
Perhaps creationists could provide an opinion to this discovery? If they did, would it be respectful?
Inside Joan Rivers.
When 900 years old you reach, look that good you will not.
If you do not believe in Science, can you really a run a country this complex?
The 'mainstream' Western theories of 'multiple waves' are all talking about multiple waves from Northeastern Asia. Someone mentioned the correlation between genetic markers found in South America and Australia... (Australia has been populated at LEAST as long as modern Humans have existed, if not before) Which sounds more likely that populations originating in South Asia/Australia (The Southern Sea Basin) could have migrated either around Africa, or across the Pacific, to reach the Americas. Hawaiian legends speak of 'little people' they encountered when the Polynesians first came to Hawaii, that were mostly killed/disappeared. Like the Indonesian caves holding 'pygmy' skeletons. Early reports of European invaders in Central America spoke of "black people" distinct from the "red people" they were encountering in the rest of the area (Mexico, Caribbean).
The fact that someone thinks their girlfriend is pretty when others don't is a matter to live and let live. Creationists are actively trying to destroy science education in the United States and convert the government into a Christian Fundamentalist theocracy. Those are matters to be actively resisted, not tolerated.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
My beef with (most) creationists is that they also think:
* That my girlfriend (wife, now) should really not be so uppity to believe she should have a career and exercise her mind and opinion Instead, she should be barefoot in the kitchen, continually pregnant, and look to me as head of the household as Christ is head of the church.
* That my children should not be taught to think, but rather think exactly like they do, and ignore most things that science and reasoned investigation have revealed.
* That 90% of those 6.6 billion people (i.e., the ones not like them), not to mention nearly everyone who has lived before, are going straight to hell and damnation, whether they are moral or not.
So I don't think I'll apologize and respect their diverse opinions.
Respecting someone's right to an opinion and respecting their opinion are two completely different things. I respect other peoples right to an opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the opinion itself. Quite frankly, I think that people who seriously believe in creationism need to be checked into the loonie bin.
But I guess the whole study of paleontology is an ignorant falsehood. My bad. I'm probably the one off the mark here.
But...but...but...the Book says....
This guy's the limit!
There are some things which aren't a matter of "opinion", and holding an opinion contrary to measurable fact is, well, senseless.
People who claim the Earth is flat may have an "opinion", but since their opinion is directly falsifiable, it's not a very good opinion. It's one they hold onto irrationally in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The people who haven't been able to adapt their view of their creator god to actually encompass reality ... well, that just makes no sense. Heck, if the Catholic Church can accept that fossils are real and actually millions of years old, anyone fanatically clinging to the notion that the Earth is 6000 years old ... well, they're not even trying to be rational. They're just holding onto a notion and saying "la la la" when someone tries to tell them truth.
This isn't about respecting differences in subjective things. This is about claiming that objective reality has been faked. That's just plain irrational.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Look who's running it now. Apparently, you can.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
No, he said run the country. Note the lack of "into a deep, deep hole" after those words.
C Pungent
Agreed, it is time to put an end to these barbaric religions.
I recently sent a funny email about creationist idiocy to a friend. Here's the response I got back:
==================
you kid, but we Texas people know the reality of crazed parental notions. I am reminded of my first experience in small town Texas where I was told "you don't use the rod?" and the woman proceeded to pull out a leather replica of a ruler with embossing that said "the ROD of GOD" on it.
I nearly fell out. That and the accompanying "you must spank your child until they cry with tears of repentance"
And this regarding [name of kid kept private] who was TWO at the time and reluctant to potty train. She no more knew what sin or redemption was than she could explain quantum physics. Yet I was to punish her over lack of bowel control upon demand.
===================
Really. I call for zero tolerance for "biblical" morality. You wouldn't let a kid be taught that 2 + 2 = 5, or that the earth is flat, or that the earth is the center of the solar system. Don't teach them that the bible is the full truth and spirit of an all-powerful, all-knowing being who created everything, either.
The bible is an archaic, brutal, ridiculous text of ancient folklore. Nothing else. Seriously, read it cover to cover, not in cherry-picked bits and pieces. And if you're a christian, do not park your god-given powers of reason and logic at the door. Consider the possibility that the bible itself is the work of satan, and that God gave us reason and logic in his own image. The true religious mission is to learn about the universe from the universe itself. To hell with the bible, where it belongs.
On second thought, carry on. My children will need some good, obedient servants when they get older.
Either Scientific American or Discover magazine had an article on this about 12 years ago. Mostly it had to with a settlement they found on the tip of Tierra del Fuego, and postulated that they had been driven down through the Americas by the Asians. Likely descendants of Australian aborigines, iirc.
Yeah, everyone knows the plural of Morman is Mormen.
But...but...but...the Book says....
As opposed to "But...but...but...the Scientist says...."???
None of us have this kind of information first hand, as we're just not that old. On some level, we're all just taking someone else's word for it.
backs away without making eye contact ... OK, sure thing there chief. Whatever works for 'ya.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The leaders of the American religious right have assembled an engine of ignorance with their attempts at subverting science and reason. These are the people who would make us fear change and progress as corruption and immorality because they know it would be their downfall at the head of the power structure if Americans were to secularize as happened in post WWII Europe. They allow their followers to believe it is immoral to deviate from a "median" or norm that they define as slavishly devout hetero couple with kids. They teach all sorts of crazy things like man should be treated as the superior to women, that priests/preacher should be greater than them and a host of saints, gods and fairy folk that are better than all mankind. This false hierarchy gives people an excuse to not look at their life and the consequences of how they live it pragmatically let alone existentially and gives them an excuse or scapegoat they can always pass the buck to instead of perfecting one's own actions, reactions and mind. These systems that tend to classify people according to supposed inborn traits are the anachronisms of the caste society they originated in 1000's of years ago and were meant to enforce obedience and subjugation to.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
"hey, you really shouldn't be dating a pig!"
You should remember that Slashdot is an international community. Some of our English speaking members come from island nations where interpersonal relations of an ovine or porcine nature are not always frowned on save by the Kirk.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Probably. I haven't known Creationists to flame athesists or joke about how they're going to hell for not believing. But on Slashdot, the guy who makes a slam at Creationists gets modded funny, while the guy who says "live and let live" gets modded flamebait. Evolutionists may be able to back up their beliefs with science, but that doesn't cover up the fact that most of them are assholes.
Can I make everything you just said my sig?
You don't know Jack Chick
Evolutionists don't go to court to get science taught in Sunday School. Creationists go to court to get their Sunday School taught in Science classes. That's pretty assholish...
Respecting someone's right to an opinion and respecting their opinion are two completely different things. I respect other peoples right to an opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the opinion itself. Quite frankly, I think that people who seriously believe in creationism need to be checked into the loonie bin.
No, they just need a better understanding of what the scientific method is and how it works. In all my years of school, the vast majority of the time spent learning "science" has revolved around reading a book full of assertions, with nothing presented to the reader for the purposes of backing those assertions up.
To be clear, I'm not claiming that scientists dictate assertions to the rest of us. I now know that there is a method, with checks and balances, but the impression I got in school was always that science was a list of terms to memorize, and an occasional fact or process that needed to be explained "in your own words". In short, I wasn't learning what science is or how it works. I was seeing the product, instead of the process, and that kind of thinking is what allows creationism to flourish in, otherwise, reasonable people.
Quite simply, you're confusing phenotype with genotype to propose an argument. Bad Thing.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
The founding fathers of America recognised the danger of interspersing religion with state. If you do the research, you'll also find that most of them were deists - which was pretty much as close as you could get to athiest, back then. Anything more radical than a deist was considered godless and wretched at best.
The introduction of religious elements (such as "in god we trust" on money, swearing on the bible, etc) came at a much later date. All founding fathers (the creators of the Declaration of Independence) had long since expired.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
As someone who was raised protestant, but is no longer a Christian ... I honestly have no farking idea what 'whore of Babylon' means, or why I wouldn't think anyone spouting off about it isn't batshit crazy. Oddly enough, I don't recall ever hearing those words in Church, and the points of disagreement between the various denominations mostly strikes me as arcane and meaningless. I tuned out the animosity between Protestants and Catholics decades ago.
I may be too stupid to know their religion, but that kind of stuff to an outsider just comes across like a nut job who is standing on a street corner screeching out gibberish that most of us haven't a clue what the fuck it means.
Sounds like an incoherent loon to me. :-P
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
...The bible is an archaic, brutal, ridiculous text of ancient folklore...
You are obviously misinformed about the nature of this unique book. There is no other one like it.
Even if you do not accept the Bible as truth, or as God's message to mankind, you certainly should be able to consider that it is a very unusual book. Actually it is a collection of 66 books penned by 40 different writers over a time span of at least 1500 years. Yet it has a very unified central authorship and message concerning the dealings of God with mankind. Much of it depicts human history, some of it written down before it ever took place. Some of this history, written in advance, is taking place right before our very eyes in our time. We can read the content of tomorrow's newspaper headlines in some of the passages of the Bible.
For thousands of years, all human writing had to be laboriously copied by hand. When the art of printing was finally invented by Johannes Gutenberg, guess which human writing was first printed? Guess which human writing is distributed more widely than any other and translated into more languages and dialects than any other? Guess which book its enemies have endeavored to destroy more than any other? There are many religious writings, but none of them come even remotely close to the content and distribution of this remarkable book.
(..and that God gave us reason and logic in his own image..)
Exactly, and that is why we read in the Bible:
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD;...
It is an admirable and good goal, which is encouraged in a number of biblical passages, to study the universe which the Creator God of the Bible brought into being. It is a good thing to learn about the theories and ideas of Einstein or other great scientists, but it is quite a greater honor and higher goal to get to know such people personally and interact with them face to face.
That is the ultimate goal the Creator God of the universe has in mind for you and me. He gave us humans not only the ability to observe and learn about his creation, but wants to honor us, by inviting us into a face-to-face, one on one relationship with himself.
Jesus DEFINES eternal life to be this knowledge of God:
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
This is not something you get after you die. You can experience it today, but only if you want to and are willing to believe.
The Bible is not about the religious trappings and rigmarole, which organized religion has brought us, but an intimate loving relationship which God desires for us humans, whom he has created in his image and likeness. If you were to dare read the Bible with that desire in your heart, it would become a new book to you.
All theory is gray