NASA Announces Next Mars Mission

Grant Henninger writes "Today, NASA announced their final selection for the Mars Scout 2013 mission: Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN. MAVEN will provide the first direct measurements ever taken to address key scientific questions about Mars's evolution by measuring characteristics of its atmospheric gases, upper atmosphere, solar wind, and ionosphere. The mission, estimated to cost $485M, is scheduled for launch in late 2013."

Comments

Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hoyven MAVEN!

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[alex4point0]

Isn't Maven a demo scene coder?

Oh, Skaven. My bad.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Steven Hawking is a bastard! ...what? No Atomic Robo fans?

Wow

[Konster]

Wow, what a boring science mission.

I say we attack them instead and keep the planet for ourselves.

Re:Wow

[Whiteox]

Wow, what a boring science mission.

At least they don't need a camera. No more fuzzy b/w images for us to worry about.

Re:Wow

[Coraon]

I say invade, after all its just like Zapp Brannigan said, "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream; to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things."

That's what these missions are ultimately for

[Chris Rhodes]

NASA's Mars Exploration Program seeks to characterize and understand Mars as a dynamic system, including its present and past environment, climate cycles, geology and biological potential

That means, How difficult is it to land troops?

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[moniker127]

I was thinking more along the lines of "How difficult is it to build condos"

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[Chris Rhodes]

At least they wouldn't have to worry about landslides dropping the condos in the oceans.

And regardless of how difficult they are to build, it would be easy to sell the timeshares, I bet.

Of course we can get you there for your summer vacation...

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[BPPG]

Condos? Frig that, I just want a place to get away from it all.

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[Plutonite]

I wonder, if we do colonize space one day, if there will be suburban and "get away" places there as well. I'm all for bonding with [deep space] nature, but it would be rather disappointing to go all the way to Mars then find soccer mom vehicles once you venture a little outside the city. Floating minivans? No, thank you.

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmm, Martian soccer moms...

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[ohmpossum]

Are you kidding? Condo builders don't care about that stuff. They just care if they LOOK good in a photo and have easy access to the golf coarse. Marketing will spin it to let you know they are 'pest free' environments. I say we just send some coackroaches to Mars and see how long they can survive.

Re:That's what these missions are ultimately for

[ohmpossum]

They got Floating Minivans in Houston!... Houston, YOU have a problem.

Obligatory

[eclectro]

Yes, but are they looking for oil?

Re:Obligatory

[Jor]

They are looking for water, which - when the oil runs out - is going to be a lot more interesting.

Note: the vast majority of all fresh water processing is fueled by fossile fuel today (think sea water processing), so when the oil runs out, there is going to be a serious shortage in drinking water.

I't wont even be the first war about water, but it may be the last one. Ever.

Re:Obligatory

[Urkki]

When that happens, there are a few choices.

One, move to far enough north. Then you'll freeze during winter 'cos you don't have oil for heating, but at least you won't go thirsty, and the cold winter will thin out the riff-raff yearly (especially after the global warming triggers the next ice age).

Two, move to south. At least you don't freeze to death without energy, but you'll have to fight for clean drinking water.

Three, pop a few plasmids, grow wings, and then migrate with the birds.

Re:Obligatory

[oldspewey]

Note: the vast majority of all fresh water processing is fueled by fossile fuel today (think sea water processing)

It gets better - as oil and natural gas run out, the "easy" oil is being used up first. That leaves the stuff that's really deep, really viscous, or problematic in other ways when it comes to extraction. What's the primary material used to aid in this difficult extraction process? That's right, water.

A good (horrific) example is the oil sands extraction industry in Alberta, which is merrily destroying the Athabasca River watershed through massive water takings and pollution.

As oil runs out, we run out of energy to deal with the looming water crisis. As water runs out we run out of the raw material needed to extract energy ... fun times ahead

Re:Obligatory

[GooberToo]

And it gets worse. The US is working hard to use of the largest fresh water aquifer" which is used for 30% of the US' irrigation and 80% of the drinking water for those that live within its boundaries.

Continued use of corn for biofuels will only add additional pressures to use this aquifer for irrigation.

Re:Obligatory

[lgw]

Wow! In may day we worried about The Bomb (though the science behind nuclear winter turned out to be crap). You kids these days are *really* reaching to make up shit to be afraid of.

Setting aside that we could easily provide that power with solar energy (the only reason we don't is price), or nuclear energy (at a completely reasonable price), and setting aside the fact we don't actuall *use* oil to make electricity, you *should* be asking yourself "what's the primary way in which water is used?"

Give up? The number 1 consumer of water in the US is power plants. If your Peak Oil doomsday fantasy comes along, don't worry, the tightly rationed power remaining will be plenty with the load from all those power plants removed. Well, except in California, but if you're unwilling to build your own power stations, it's hardly the fault of responsible people.

We now return you to non-pothead-paranoia reality.

measurement

[freakdiablo]

Can we keep the same units of measurement this time? (That was a Mars mission right?)

Re:measurement

[rk]

Yes, NINE years ago. Can we now, as an alleged scientific and technical community, move on?

Re:measurement

[neumayr]

Nope. SI units are a lot older than nine years, and confusing units on a mars mission deserves getting laughed at for at least a decade.

Re:measurement

[Ludo.Sanders]

Maybe they can keep a standard collor spectrum for the Mars photo's while they're at it.

Re:measurement

[ZiggyStardust1984]

You mean, like... not using Afrikan Elephants?

Re:measurement

[Anonymous Coward]

Any nation that still uses Imperial units deserves to be laughed at.

Re:measurement

[lgw]

Any nation that still uses Imperial units deserves to be laughed at.

Any nation that fell for the French "metric" joke of a system needs to be laughed at. Everything but the Furlongs/Fortnight/Firkin system is crap!

Re:Maven? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... MAVEN? Does that mean anything? People who write acronyms contain so much fail.

maven â"noun
an expert or connoisseur.

In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news NASA has just issued a press release stating that the proposed $485M mission is already over budget.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

NASA is going to get even less funding for mentioning evolution in their latest project on principle. More money for other on ground areas I suppose.

Just curious, does NASA provide all documents online relating to development of space ships and/or an area for discussion of such projects? It would be pretty interesting to read how much work and creativity goes on in NASA workers' lives.

Re:In other news...

[Atriqus]

...and underfunded.

Re:In other news...

[yourexhalekiss]

I actually cannot believe how inexpensive NASA's missions are. It costs just $485M to go to Mars, and how many billions or trillions of dollars to invade Iraq? Seriously, NASA's missions recently have been a bargain.

Re:In other news...

[Amazing Quantum Man]

NASA issued a press release stating that in Kansas, the mission would be known as MAVID: Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Intelligent Design.

Re:In other news...

[neumayr]

OTOH, the estimated costs of "liberating" Iraq was a lot less than its real cost, too.

Re:In other news...

[Zoxed]

> I actually cannot believe how inexpensive NASA's missions are. It costs just $485M to go to Mars, and how many billions or trillions of dollars to invade Iraq?

This is true: but look at the Return on Investment:
- Mars Mission: a few grainy photos and some scientific knowledge - value to gvnt supporters: minimal
- Invade Iraq: a guaranteed flow of a zillion hogsheads of oil - value to gvnt supporters: ...

Re:In other news...

[derfy]

I really wish I had mod points...to mod up, of course.

Re:In other news...

[Anne_Nonymous]

Wouldn't we be better off going over budget on bombing some helpless foreign orphans like usual?

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

and delayed....

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just curious, does NASA provide all documents online relating to development of space ships and/or an area for discussion of such projects?

No.

what units?

[cashman73]

Will they be using the metric or imperial system for the measurements this time? Better make sure they get this right,... ;-)

What about digging too?

[houbou]

I mean, I may not know much about space exploration, although I find the topic fun and interesting, but as they are planning this mission, which in effect is the studying of Mars atmosphere and weather, why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone and study Mars' crust or at least, something more like a few hundred feet into the ground itself?

Whatever equipment they send, have a missile or something that can impact or dig into the soil, be launched from space directly onto Mars soil. The resulting hole that would be from could receive the visit from a drone, who could take samples and make various analyses. After all, the surface soil samples they've been doing, it's all nice and dandy, but the real story, I believe should be what's underneath it all.

That way, they get data from the air and they get a sample of what Mars is made of down below. We may end up finding more resources available to help with towards a real man space exploration, as there may be resources awaiting to be utilized.

Depending on cost, etc.., they may even be able to have key locations targetted for drilling and just have a drone in each location dropped.

Gives a better perspective, might see some variations in what is found, depending on location..

Re:What about digging too?

[Konster]

The Brits did something like that a few years ago...impromptu mission to study Mars surface via high energy impact. Beagle 2 was the name of the impact device.

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Perfect example of how some industries can suffer due to a lack of private competition.

The space race, when there was a "profit" to exploration gave us some of the most exciting 15-20 years. Now that its just another government program it'll stagnate and make little to no innovation.

For further reading please see U.S. Public Schools.

Re:What about digging too?

[MyLongNickName]

Yeah, and look at financial institutions. They failed because they were all run by the U.S. government, right?

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

NASA tried this several years ago. There spacecraft had two basketball-sized probes attached that were dropped from a high altitude. They were dropped to the surface and were never heard from again. Nor, incidentally was the spacecraft. Too lazy to find the details.

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Privatization is not a full proof thing. Nothing is.

However, the U.S. banks are still some of the strongest in the world, and they are doing much better than the nationalized banks in South/Central America.

Re:What about digging too?

[Trogre]

Even better! All we need to do then is scope out Beagle 2's crash site and analyse the soil around it which should still be considered 'freshly' dug up. No need to fire any missiles.

(thinks)

It probably burned up the atmosphere, didn't it?

Re:What about digging too?

[marco.antonio.costa]

Nope, they failed because the Fed suddenly felt like lowering the interest rate to 1% for about 6 years after 9/11. Which sort of fucks up the market's signalling forces.

For more information look up the Austrian theory of the business cycle.

Re:What about digging too?

[Nyeerrmm]

The basic process by which the mission is designed starts by defining the scientific scope, i.e. primary, secondary, etc. mission objectives. Based on those, you see which instruments and support devices you need to achieve each mission, and optimize the design to get the most of your objectives done within cost and reducing complexity. The reduction of complexity is important, because a project with a less than double the cost and double the "stuff" is not necessarily better because it probably has a higher likelihood of failure.

Of course, whether or not this is the right approach is a good question. Personally the idea of a huge number of incredibly cheap drones with a 10% success rate sounds especially appealing to me... but thats just me. The high cost of launch reduces the utility of that kind of model.

Re:What about digging too?

[evil agent]

Nope, they failed because the Fed suddenly felt like lowering the interest rate to 1% for about 6 years after 9/11.

It was a 1% for 1 year. That's about 6 years...

The problem is lack of regulation. Let the "free market" do whatever it wants and people will fuck it up. It could be malice or it could be incompetence, either way, oversight is needed.

Re:What about digging too?

[marco.antonio.costa]

Ok, ok, granted, I exaggerated to make a point, 1% was as low as it got, but nevertheless, it was unrealistically low. And as they racked up the interest back up they shouldn't be surprised when people started defaulting on their loans.

If you want more of regulation, then you want more of this. Markets work to direct investment where it is needed pretty damn well, but if you have a central bank that keeps fiddling with the damn interest rates like a PS3 joystick, it is very unfair to point your finger at the 'free market' for fucking it up.

For a more graphical comparison check this little article from Mises.org. Not a close fit as South America and Africa, but close.

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

So many assertions, all based on people's political philosophy and not on data!

I find the "oversight over the free market" comment more hilarious, though. Always the desire for some higher power, be it your parents, government, or God to come and save the day. If you have a government overseeing everything then you just have one big possible point of failure as opposed to just smaller points of failure.

Look, I know you're probably young, idealistic, and ready to march to the polls ready to vote for Barack Obama like your sociology professor instructed you to do, but massive government oversight of peoples' lives and dealings, whether they be business or personal (not like the distinction is meaningful or real) is ever really a just or good idea.

Business does not exist merely to serve you, although politicians may tell you otherwise. Learn that you are not the center of the world, that other people have a right to try to make money and improve their lives, even if it might mean that someone else can't be top dog, and maybe we'll be one tiny step closer to a freer country instead of one kept in the shackles of expecting a higher power to save us instead of doing what it's always done and making things worse.

Re:What about digging too?

[Tablizer]

something more like a few hundred feet into the ground itself? Whatever equipment they send, have a missile or something that can impact or dig into the soil, be launched from space directly onto Mars soil. The resulting hole that would be from could receive the visit from a drone

For one, explosives are usually weighty, and thus expensive to send (let alone risky to prepare). Second, meteors already dig holes so that we don't have to. That's why Opportunity explored about a half-dozen craters of various sizes and ages. True, most are fairly old, but it's not that hard to find a relatively new one from orbit by analyzing the prominence of the ejecta and erosion of the walls.

                 

Re:What about digging too?

[rk]

Actually an impact analyzer has been proposed. In addition to doing some pretty nifty stratigraphic science, you gotta admit, kinetic strikes from orbit is freakin' cool. :-)

Full disclosure: Phil Christensen is my boss.

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You really are a mindless automata.

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

If only a politician were here to show me the light.

Re:What about digging too?

[hcdejong]

'A few hundred feet' is highly optimistic, I suspect. And if you get to that depth with a missile, there's not much chance of soil from that depth getting to the surface (and even less that the original depth of the debris can be identified). Percussive science has its uses, but this isn't it.
To get soil samples from deeper than a few meters, you need a drilling rig that's larger than can be launched by current rockets.

Re:What about digging too?

[LordVader717]

If you have a government overseeing everything then you just have one big possible point of failure as opposed to just smaller points of failure.

Care to elaborate how the Credit Crisis is a "small point of failure"?

but massive government oversight of peoples' lives and dealings, whether they be business or personal (not like the distinction is meaningful or real) is ever really a just or good idea.

Yeah, because giving a democracy the power to do something as radical as keep a stable currency is such a huge intrusion. We should all be scribbling our own IOU's to pay for things. Works much better./sarcasm

Re:What about digging too?

[TheThiefMaster]

Atmosphere? Mars?
I'm not sure it has enough to burn something up...

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

It has an atmosphere similar to Earth's. (Thickness wise)

Re:What about digging too?

[Kjella]

Well, an impact doesn't get you very far. Even the best bunker-buster bombs do only 20 feet of reinforced concrete, not sure how far they'd get in Mars soil but probably not that much further if it's mountains and they're not designed to expel things to the surface. Oh yeah and it'd weigh 4-5000 pounds. As you'd have to wait for a drone to get nearby (we're not that accurate and the drones not that fast) you'll probably get as much out of studying "new" meteor craters, if you only have a brush to take away any residue collected on the surface.

What would be interesting is a drilling operation, but getting a drilling rig that could reach any real depths down there wouldn't exactly be an add-on task. One thing is the drill itself but in general a drilling rig requires some sort of cooling fluid and large amounts of power, both are very rare on Mars. The Rovers actually consume very little power, I don't remember the figure but it's not much. Just making a solar panel farm to power any sort of drilling would probably be an entire mission all by itself.

However, just like oil companies we wouldn't want to drill where there's nothing interesting, so the real answer is probably reflection seismology. Drop a bunch of cheap redundant geophones, make the impact, record all the seismic data through some local wireless grid and send it to a C&C central that'll broadcast it back to earth. It shouldn't be that hard to make a "Mars Glider" instead of lander that'll drop the sensors and the impact can be pretty much anything. If it takes out some of the geophones that's acceptable too.

Re:What about digging too?

[Raenex]

So many assertions, all based on people's political philosophy and not on data!

So you follow that by spewing your own political philosophy without data as universal truth? The funny thing is the post you replied to was talking about data.

Re:What about digging too?

[MrKaos]

I find the "oversight over the free market" comment more hilarious, though. Always the desire for some higher power, be it your parents, government, or God to come and save the day. If you have a government overseeing everything then you just have one big possible point of failure as opposed to just smaller points of failure.

I'm sorry, I find this comment naive. Capitalism only works well when the financial system is "well" regulated and the systems are fair. What I mean by ""well regulated" is the rules are refined, redundant rules are weeded out and new rules are implemented. The reason for this is that some people are dishonest (and worse) and will commit fraudulent behaviour. If you don't have structure and rules in financial markets then people can't have confidence in those markets. This is what has brought about the situation in American markets today.

For a good example look at how the airline industry works, it's how we should run financial systems and hospitals too.

Look, I know you're probably young, idealistic, and ready to march to the polls ready to vote for Barack Obama like your sociology professor instructed you to do,

So who should he vote for? It's well known McCain's economic credentials are lacklustre at best even to an external observer. If it's a 'party' philosophy then it appears that the American republican party's financial policies is what got you guys into this situation in the first place cause I'm pretty sure Bush started with a budget surplus. btw I'm Australian and keep an interested eye on US UK and Europe's political systems because it affects us.

but massive government oversight of peoples' lives and dealings, whether they be business or personal (not like the distinction is meaningful or real) is ever really a just or good idea.

Well it's either regulation before the fact or taxpayer dollars to bail out financial irresponsibility after. It's fairly obvious that there has been too much risk taken and if everyone keeps speculating on the value of a market then eventually something is going to call it. In Aussie we had American Federal Reserve bank officials over here some months ago investigating the regulatory controls that are in place in the Australian financial system that make Sarbanes Oxley irrelevant.

The American economy maybe bigger than the Aussie, but, as we are much more conservative than you guys we *impose* regulation because we know that some people are going to 'get creative' with financial controls for their own gain. Consequently Australia has been one of the only western economies still growing, so strong regulatory control can't be such a bad thing. I doubt we will come out of 'meltdown monday' unscathed though.

Let's just hope America can continue to afford science and space missions, cause I'm a big fan!!!

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the mission that the Decepticons destroyed... Didn't you see the movie...?

Re:What about digging too?

[Hintertux]

This is the mission that the Decepticons destroyed... Didn't you see the movie...?

Re:What about digging too?

[ChrisA90278]

Another way to do this would be to build a small roover that you can drive around and find a place where something else has already made a huge hole in the ground for then drive into that hole. This is slightly cheaper because you don't launch a giant rock from Earth.

Oh, wait. Didn't some one already do this?

Re:What about digging too?

[fiannaFailMan]

Atmosphere? Mars?
I'm not sure it has enough to burn something up...</p></quote>

OK then, not burn up, 'heat up to the point of melting.' Yes Mars has an atmosphere. Maybe not an oxygen-rich one, but an atmosphere nonetheless.

Re:What about digging too?

[fiannaFailMan]

I don't know how you didn't get modded offtopic but this is the kind of market fundamentalism that got us into this mess. The problem with the financial institutions isn't too much regulation. The problem is that the people making the decisions to take risks were themselves insulated from the consequences of their gambling not paying off. If CEOs were to lose their own homes if their investments went south then they'd put systems in place to make sure their investors were a bit more careful with other peoples' money. But the 'free market' does not have any incentives built in to make this happen, hence regulation is required to fill that gap. Same as how Enron's accountants had no incentives to tell the truth, the 'free market' incentivized them to cook the books. Regulation had to come to the rescue to bring integrity to the system.

Bottom line: the free market has its place and for the most part it does its job well, but it does not always magically coincide with the public interest and it is in those cases where regulation is needed.

Re:What about digging too?

[fiannaFailMan]

That's a pity. Deep core samples from a Martian surface probe would be very cool. Think of the info you could get about the history of the planet's atmosphere and the lessons we could apply to our own.

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

I'm sorry, I find this comment naive. Capitalism only works well when the financial system is "well" regulated and the systems are fair. What I mean by ""well regulated" is the rules are refined, redundant rules are weeded out and new rules are implemented. The reason for this is that some people are dishonest (and worse) and will commit fraudulent behaviour. If you don't have structure and rules in financial markets then people can't have confidence in those markets. This is what has brought about the situation in American markets today.

If people will commit fraudulent behavior, then what of the regulations themselves and the people who enforce them? This is the naivety I'm talking about; you are loathe to trust a corporation (I'd say you shouldn't trust anybody) but you merrily trust the government. The difference between a business and government is obvious--you elect to deal with a business, but the government is there whether you like it or not, and democracy doesn't work at all like it's popularly envisioned; oligarchy structures emerge (political parties) and most people aren't aware of the issues and don't care, anyway--to say nothing of two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner!

For a good example look at how the airline industry works, it's how we should run financial systems and hospitals too.

Haha, the airline industry is an excellent model for financial systems and hospitals *giggle*....?

So who should he vote for? It's well known McCain's economic credentials are lacklustre at best even to an external observer. If it's a 'party' philosophy then it appears that the American republican party's financial policies is what got you guys into this situation in the first place cause I'm pretty sure Bush started with a budget surplus. btw I'm Australian and keep an interested eye on US UK and Europe's political systems because it affects us.

Who said anything about voting? There are better things to do with your time then selecting reinforcing the lies of sociopaths and sweet-talkers.

Well it's either regulation before the fact or taxpayer dollars to bail out financial irresponsibility after.

Great false dichotomy--either pass regulations (often designed to favor the big players that are already established and to shy competition away) or create corporate welfare (well, if individuals get welfare, why shouldn't businesses, you bigot? Please note this is sarcasm) to provide a safety net for irresponsible behavior on the part of financial institutions.

It's fairly obvious that there has been too much risk taken and if everyone keeps speculating on the value of a market then eventually something is going to call it. In Aussie we had American Federal Reserve bank officials over here some months ago investigating the regulatory controls that are in place in the Australian financial system that make Sarbanes Oxley irrelevant.

Thanks for the fun fact.

Anyway, the disincentive for risky speculation is potential loss of money; bailouts take out that disincentive.

In the housing market, a lot of blame goes not to the banks but to the people accepting loans they couldn't pay off of.

The American economy maybe bigger than the Aussie, but, as we are much more conservative than you guys we *impose* regulation because we know that some people are going to 'get creative' with financial controls for their own gain.

Just like the regulators and government itself, right? If someone steals money or otherwise similar action, they should be individually taken up on it.

Consequently Australia has been one of the only western economies still growing, so strong regulatory control can't be such a bad thing. I doubt we will come out of 'meltdown monday' unscathed though.

There could be any number reasons why Australia's economy is growing that have nothing to do with regulation; hell, the regulation could be dampening what would have been even more growth, I do not know

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

Why is it always the CEOs that are to blame, and not say, people that accept loans they can't pay because they want a nice house and they WANT IT NOW?

Re:What about digging too?

[TheThiefMaster]

It's a very THIN atmosphere, so thin that the landers use airbags to land on instead of parachutes. That somewhat suggests that they don't burn up, they just go right through the atmosphere and hit the ground.

Re:What about digging too?

[fiannaFailMan]

Why is it always the CEOs that are to blame, and not say, people that accept loans they can't pay because they want a nice house and they WANT IT NOW?

Same reason I would be to blame for lending $10 to a homeless tramp in the street thinking he's going to show up at the same time the next day to pay it back with interest.

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

This thread is way off topic but I'll bite :)
The problem here is stupid/greedy people.
Some people will blame it on the right or left but when it comes down to it individual people were complete idiots about this.

I was offered an adjustable rate mortgage. I read the paperwork, immediately thought "what is the worst case scenario?" and immediately said H$LL no. I got a fixed rate mortgage. A lot of other people saw a way to get a property they couldn't afford and jumped at it.

I get credit card offers in the mail EVERY DAY but I shred them instead of filling them out. A lot of people go nuts getting credit because they have an entitlement mentality. They figure they can always file bankruptcy and they do.

Now we'll all pay for this bail out. This is not a government thing... it's all about stupid/greedy people.
If you want to blame it on the government then first do this: tell is what they should have done :)
It's easy to play the blame game.

Re:What about digging too?

[Chris Tucker]

The air is thick with the stench of Randroid droppings.

Libertarianism: The Scientology of Politics.

"I'm trapped on Gilligan's Island, but I'm not paying ANY INCOME TAXES!!!"
                                                                                      Mary Ayn Rand

Re:What about digging too?

[Kittoa]

A mission somewhat similar to what you're describing is already in the works.
The Thor Mission

After being released from the observer, the impactor will streak through the Martian atmosphere to an impact site lying between 30 degrees and 60 degrees latitude, in either the northern or southern hemisphere of the Red Planet.

On a lighter note, I suspect that will be the Mission that finally finds life. The Martians have been ok with US sending little robots crawling around in the middle of nowhere. I can't see the Generals in the Martian Planetary Defense Dept being happy with us bombing them (FROM SPACE!).

Re:What about digging too?

[MrKaos]

If people will commit fraudulent behavior, then what of the regulations themselves and the people who enforce them? This is the naivety I'm talking about; you are loathe to trust a corporation (I'd say you shouldn't trust anybody) but you merrily trust the government.

No, I don't trust the government, but I trust a corporation even less because a corporation is legally obliged to follow a course of action that maximises shareholder value. Regulations is only necessary because of the flaws in corporation law, if you want to do away with government regulation and interference in business affairs, then make companies liable for their externalities and then the market would truly be free. This is the naivety I was talking about, instead of fixing corporate law so it is relevant to the twenty first century you advocate reams of ineffectual laws so that corporations maintain their protection to go on plundering the taxpayer of their wealth? The system is broken, either fix it or put additional regulation in place to bring things into balance. If you don't do it the financial system will continue to suffer collapses like this and people loose confidence investing their money in it.

The difference between a business and government is obvious--you elect to deal with a business, but the government is there whether you like it or not, and democracy doesn't work at all like it's popularly envisioned; oligarchy structures emerge (political parties) and most people aren't aware of the issues and don't care, anyway--to say nothing of two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner!

Yes, yes and democracy is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. You have a few things backwards there, you don't elect business, you elect government - I didn't elect to do business with Lehman Brothers but my investments will suffer because of it.

Haha, the airline industry is an excellent model for financial systems and hospitals *giggle*....?

So you'd prefer an airline industry run like our financial systems, flawed and prone to big crashes.

Who said anything about voting? There are better things to do with your time then selecting reinforcing the lies of sociopaths and sweet-talkers.

The Oligarch that has emerged beyond the political realm exists precisely *because* of that disillusionment towards the political system, people don't participate because they don't think they can have an effect on the corruption, which is exactly what the plutocracy wants.

Great false dichotomy--either pass regulations or create corporate welfare to provide a safety net for irresponsible behavior on the part of financial institutions.

It's how things are. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were just bailed out, and you have Lehman Brothers bankrupt and AIG about to go to the wall, with who knows how many other horror stories out there. It's not a sustainable market and it is failing and frankly I don't like either choice, but at least with regulation the taxpayer only pays once.

Thanks for the fun fact. Anyway, the disincentive for risky speculation is potential loss of money; bailouts take out that disincentive. In the housing market, a lot of blame goes not to the banks but to the people accepting loans they couldn't pay off of.

You're joking right, there is no more bailouts, didn't Lehman Brothers show you that, let's see if AIG get's bailed out. Even Greenspan said 'worst financial conditions in 150 years, even worse than the great depression'. So if you've been trying to get a loan and constantly get refused you're not going to accept that money cause you *might* not be able to pay it off or take the risk. The government is the blame or the people are the blame, it's everyone's fault except the company who couldn't refuse those interest payments.

Just lik

Re:What about digging too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Care to elaborate how the Credit Crisis is a "small point of failure"?

Believe it or not, credit crisis have ocurred in almost every country around the world in the past 30 years.

What is going on now is simply something similar to the crisis of 1929, when basically our capitalist society introduces such vast amount of productivity that only 10% of the population could deliver all products and services to the rest of the population.

The solution was:

1. To reduce the time peple worked dauly to 6 hours per day. yep, you read that right, only 6 instead of the 8 jours we work now.

2. To have workers pay fot social sevurity and the non employed to receive social security.

3. Free education. people who are being educated tend to work a lot less.

4. Increase government spending by other going to war or sending people to the moon. doing something increadible expensive but from which get get nothing back. there is some controversy in here, since it could be argued that it would be much better to use that money for something really useful, as for example, having the government pay all your interest on your house. the only problem with this is what an economist called Richard Keynes called "multiplier" and we know this today as the Keynesian multiplier:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html

To be fair, Keynesian economics is just an opinion. The other point of view is monetarist, but has been largely discredited when it comes to certain effects which are better explained by Keynesian economics.

The debacle here is just a symptom. Banks are going down, but take into account that they gave bad credit on the first place, they created the housing bubble (meaning prices increased 30% every year for more than 10 years), they gave teaser rates to would be buyers, etc.

Some banks are acquired, others disappear and others are acquirers.

The only constant is that people who ran these companies are getting rich very fast. Even when the shareholder value now is zero. How is that possible?

I mean if I don't perform my job satisfactorily, I will have problems bringing food to the table.

These people can do a lousy job and still get all the rewards, even if the company they were working for disappears, 20 thousand people are now looking for a job and living on social security for a while and shareholders (meaning hard working people having savings in the form of shares) loose everything without a satisfactory explanation.

Excuse me but this is just a transfer of wealth from individuals who don't have any clue to individuals who don't have any shame.

Re:What about digging too?

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

Ever try to excavate through ice and rock? You need a drilling platform, not a "bunker-buster" journey-to-the-center-of-Mars capsule. Also, have you ever tried to transmit data through ice and rock? It may work with your Wifi through a 6" concrete wall, but go down a few meters and it gets really tricky.

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

I've only the time to address one thing:

No, I don't trust the government, but I trust a corporation even less because a corporation is legally obliged to follow a course of action that maximises shareholder value.

You don't see how self-refuting this is? If corporations are worse because they are LEGALLY requires to maximize shareholder value, then, what entity is responsible for this LEGAL principle...?

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

Your risky investment is your "fault"; I don't like using that word in any context like this, granted, in a perfect, just world the hobo would have paid you back.

But no one should be forced to help bail you out and give you that 10 bucks because of your risky decisions.

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

I don't like Ayn Rand, her ethics, her epistemology, and especially her views on charity. You're not very intelligent, especially since you're trying to equate a political philosophy centered around mutual consent with a religion famous for exploiting lawsuits and coercing people...

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

Actually let me go back to the whole paragraph:

No, I don't trust the government, but I trust a corporation even less because a corporation is legally obliged to follow a course of action that maximises shareholder value. Regulations is only necessary because of the flaws in corporation law, if you want to do away with government regulation and interference in business affairs, then make companies liable for their externalities and then the market would truly be free. This is the naivety I was talking about, instead of fixing corporate law so it is relevant to the twenty first century you advocate reams of ineffectual laws so that corporations maintain their protection to go on plundering the taxpayer of their wealth? The system is broken, either fix it or put additional regulation in place to bring things into balance. If you don't do it the financial system will continue to suffer collapses like this and people loose confidence investing their money in it.

Wait wait wait wait, when did I ever suggest reams of ineffectual laws? Quite the opposite, actually; I'm not even a supporter of corporate personhood.

Re:What about digging too?

[MindlessAutomata]

Yeah, because giving a democracy the power to do something as radical as keep a stable currency is such a huge intrusion. We should all be scribbling our own IOU's to pay for things. Works much better./sarcasm

I never suggested that. Go back to World of Warcraft, where things like "/sarcasm" are more the norm.

Re:What about digging too?

[Chris Tucker]

I'm equating a political philosophy that exists in a realm of purest fantasy to a scam dressed as a "religion/mind control cult" (oh, but I repeat myself!) that also exists in a realm of purest fantasy.

Libertarianism believes in the fantasy they will succeed only when the Perfect Libertarian Man (and Woman) have evolved. Until then, the Libertarian Ideal of selfish behavior and "I got mine, so FUCK YOU!" must remain the basic driving philosophy behind, well, selfish bastards, the GOP and the Libertarian Party.

Here's an example of Libertarian Fantasy . Being on the waiting list for a video from the public library, "It reminds me of Soviet breadlines."

Oh, here's another choice comment from that same article about public libraries:

Public libraries, as institutions that destroy value, destroy in some small way our ability to live our lives to the fullest. They represent houses of death and should be spat upon and cursed in the most creative language possible.

I reiterate, Libertarianism: The Scientology of Politics. Both are fantasies that cater to a juvenile mindset, eager to believe the most absurd fantasies. Except that Scientology figured out a way to make a profit from those fantasies.

Unlike Libertarianism.

Re:What about digging too?

[MrKaos]

You don't see how self-refuting this is? If corporations are worse because they are LEGALLY requires to maximize shareholder value, then, what entity is responsible for this LEGAL principle...?

If the corporate financial and government systems were free from flaws and loopholes that allow corruption then I might agree with you, but because they are not it is not self-refuting but a self-reinforcing system of failures.

It's the same issue everywhere, externalities. In this case the externalities of the financial system operating on the edge of legality providing the promise of massive returns and exposing the markets to enormous risk, creating a situation where cascade collapses are possible. Why?

Political campaigns are expensive, and they require funding from many sources. Corporations a free to fund political campaigns and candidates, candidates will not ruin their sponsors income so you have vested interests created. Because of these vested interests the politicians are working for those who fund them, not those who vote for them, so politicians are not able to change the cycle that enforces the status quo. Ergo the system of failure reinforces itself.

Wait wait wait wait, when did I ever suggest reams of ineffectual laws? Quite the opposite, actually; I'm not even a supporter of corporate personhood.

By the very nature of the entire system of corporate governance that exists (and not just in the financial sector) they are not liable for the damage they cause to the community. To try and bring that back into balance government, through the ever diminishing will of the people, have introduced this and that law that applies to this or that business sector - creating reams of paperwork and laws to attempt to regulate behaviour which, over time, becomes ineffectual because more loopholes are created. So unless you are supporting further deregulation which enhances the ability for financial corporations to commit crime then the only practical solution that remains is through reams of eventually ineffectual laws that support the status quo - even if you are not aware that is what you are doing.

I'm simply pointing out that because of this status quo it is unlikely that anything other than more regulation will be introduced to fix it, because I doubt anyone in power will be able to fix the system properly. That is the trap of our government and corporate structure, it is flawed deeply. Until the corporate lobbying cycle is made illegal we will not be able to attract the type of problem solvers to government that are able to resolve the structural problems in our corporate systems that only allows a board to make decisions that are in the interest of shareholder value.

And whilst I'm heartened that you do not support corporate personage, because we have been unable to solve these endemic systemic issues they manifest them selves as stock market collapse or toxic waste or job losses or carbon emissions. Until these problems are solved we will not qualify as 'fit' to survive as a race.

P.S, I'll just point out that AIG *was* bailed out for 85 BILLION dollars since we last spoke, with the value of bailouts closing in on a cool TRILLION dollars.

Re:What about digging too?

[fiannaFailMan]

So you agree that the CEOs are to blame for risky investments then. Thanks for changing your mind.

Re:What about digging too?

[MrKaos]

I wonder what will happen next? maybe they we a bit over the edge of legality with the FBI investigating potential for fraud.

Re:Maven? Really?

[HasselhoffThePaladin]

Try working in the DoD itself. You're presented with the full-retard breadth of bad acronyms on the daily. But when I try and be creative and come up with something like SADIST or SMEGMA, my boss just tells me to go back to my desk.

A challange to NASA

[linzeal]

Have us engineering students, engineers and insane rocket enthusiasts/investors design a mission to mars using live animals to test as many technologies as possible before you even think of sending a human mission. We US engineers are either bored building endless varieties of consumer crap or worrying what are we will be asked to build in a war with Russia and Iran. I vote C, a moused mission to mars. Think of the merchandising!

Re:A challange to NASA

[FleaPlus]

Have us engineering students, engineers and insane rocket enthusiasts/investors design a mission to mars using live animals to test as many technologies as possible before you even think of sending a human mission. We US engineers are either bored building endless varieties of consumer crap or worrying what are we will be asked to build in a war with Russia and Iran. I vote C, a moused mission to mars. Think of the merchandising!

Actually, the Mars Gravity Biosatellite, a collaboration between MIT and Georgia Tech, is working on something analogous to what you describe. They aren't planning on actually sending it to Mars though, just Earth orbit:

The Mars Gravity Biosatellite will carry a small population of mice to low Earth orbit aboard a spinning spacecraft creating "artificial gravity" equivalent to that on the Martian surface. The five-week mission will conduct the first in-depth study of how mammals adapt to a reduced-gravity environment. Groundbreaking data from this mission and its successors will be essential in determining future possibilities for human space exploration.

Re:A challange to NASA

[coolerthanmilk]

We US engineers are either bored building endless varieties of consumer crap or worrying what are we will be asked to build in a war with Russia and Iran.

Except those of us who actually have decent jobs working on rockets. Yes, my children think I'm awesome.

Re:A challange to NASA

[Anonymous Coward]

Think of the merchandising!

A band may well be interested...

Re:A challange to NASA

[sean4u]

a small population of mice to low Earth orbit aboard a spinning spacecraft

But will it blend?

Sometimes it seems...

[blind biker]

...that a good 10% of scientific work goes into inventing catchy acronyms :o) My boss is particularly good at this. And he has to, in order to secure the maximum amount of funding for our research. The catchier the better.

Re:Sometimes it seems...

[flewp]

CATCHIER:

Catchy Acronyms That Can Help Increase Economic Resources.

Yeah, I'm bored, and have spent too much time playing !acro on IRC.

Re:Sometimes it seems...

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFY

CATCHIER:

CATCHIER Acronyms That Can Help Increase Economic Resources.

Yeah, I'm bored, and have spent too much time playing !acro on IRC.

Re:Sometimes it seems...

[gstoddart]

...that a good 10% of scientific work goes into inventing catchy acronyms :o) My boss is particularly good at this. And he has to, in order to secure the maximum amount of funding for our research. The catchier the better.

My old manager had a brilliant one for internal use only, and was in reference to alpha and beta drops from dev.

Basically, boiled down to "I see dev has delivered another Steaming Heap of Innovative Technology" . I'm sure you'll never see that on an approved list of acronyms, but we liked it.

Cheers

Where's the Kaboom?

[Matt_R]

There was supposed to be an earth shattering kaboom.

Re:Where's the Kaboom?

[siddesu]

that is pre-LHC thinking ... nowadays it is not a kaboom. instead, you have quiet sucking sound as the micro black hole swallows the earth.

Re:Where's the Kaboom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be a grammar Nazi about this, but wasn't it supposed to be a Mars-shattering kaboom?

Professor Fink

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what experiment is his. He must be sitting on the board.

Sorry...

[Junta]

Checking the system for measurements would put the cost at $486 million, and therefore they can't afford it.

Re:Sorry...

[rk]

I guess not.

Re:Sorry...

[RabidMoose]

Syntax error: Possibly infinate loop.

Re:A challange to NASA - OBLIG

[Foobar of Borg]

Think of the merchandising!

MAVEN - the toilet paper!
MAVEN - the action figure!
MAVEN - the breakfast cereal!
MAVEN - the flame thrower! (the kids love this one)

This is a political move

[Anonymous Coward]

This decision enables them to market their mission as providing potentially useful data to climatologists on earth. NASA has to secure their funding, after all, and climate change is hot hot hot.

mayan calender

[floatingrunner]

yea, but after 2012?

NASA official units of measurement

[StrahdVZ]

FTFA:

the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter [...] camera can show Martian landscape features as small as a kitchen table

Exactly how big is a kitchen table? Is it an official unit of measurement? While we're at it, how long is a piece of string?

No wonder the original Polar Lander crashed...

Re:NASA official units of measurement

[plen246]

Avid /. readers will know to immediately convert the area in kitchen tables (Kt) to Cities of Bristol (Cb).

1 Kt = 2.026e-8 Cb

Of course, NASA should take pains not to confuse Kt (area) and kt (speed).

Re:NASA official units of measurement

[gstoddart]

Exactly how big is a kitchen table? Is it an official unit of measurement?

Well, in terms of what you can see from an orbiting camera, it seems a reasonable thumb-and-squint description to the layman to describe something in the 4-8 foot range. It's not exact, but useful for describing in broad terms.

While we're at it, how long is a piece of string?

What, like plain old boring linear measurement of actual string? Or, multidimensional strings? ;-)

Seriously, any piece of string is just slightly too short for its required purpose -- unless it's grossly oversized, in which case after trimming it, the remaining pieces will be too short for the required purpose.

Cheers

Re:NASA official units of measurement

[fiannaFailMan]

Exactly how big is a kitchen table? Is it an official unit of measurement? While we're at it, how long is a piece of string?

No wonder the original Polar Lander crashed...

It's called PR. Making things accessible and understandable to the public in the interests of generating the public support that is needed to keep these kinds of mission going. I'm quite sure they use more accurate tolerances when calculating trajectories.

Re:NASA official units of measurement

[Anonymous Coward]

1 Kt = 2.026e-8 Cb

or 1Kt = one thousand tables?

Money well wasted....again

[belligerent0001]

Why the hell don't we spend that $458 million on developing something useful like...i dunno...a battery the size of a suitcase that can recharge in 1 hour and power a car for 250 mile at 70mph? Or a hydroxy generating system that can power a home generator? Or a solar panel that is cheap enough for the average home owner to install and power their entire home? These things are all just barely out of reach. $500 million could solve on of these energy problem yet it is deemed more important to study the atmosphere of a planet that we can barely access with remote platforms. Please don't get me wrong. I love science and space exploration, but we really need to start prioritizing our needs as a country. If any one of the above energy solutions were found it would be conceivable that he costs of further exploration would come down drastically. Horse before the cart people....

Re:Money well wasted....again

[4D6963]

Oh suuure all of this is just $500 millions away. Tssk, too bad the investment-savvy types in the energy industry wouldn't think of spending so little money into such important R&D to reap such important fruits.

Re:Money well wasted....again

[Anonymous Coward]

Or a solar panel that is cheap enough for the average home owner to install and power their entire home

Durrr. If only there were a way to use advances in solar-panel technology made by NASA/JPL here on Earth. Duhhhhh. Slobber, drool, durrrrrrr.

Re:Money well wasted....again

[paniq]

oh, I thought these kind of posts were extinct!

Well, here we go again:

This is not Command & Conquer, where technology advancements are merely a question of power and money. Additionally, all the money is not allocated to one entity. NASA has different branches, so has the government. There is a fixed amount of money allocated to space exploration, and they already faced severe cuts. $485M is pretty cheap, considering that this is Mars! This used to cost a lot more in the past.

There are research departments working on similar stuff as you proposed above, and these things work with a much lower budget. These departments usually belong to entities with commercial interests.

There is little commercial value in finding out things about space, and that's why the government has to do it.

Re:Money well wasted....again

[meringuoid]

Why the hell don't we spend that $458 million on developing something useful like...i dunno...a battery the size of a suitcase that can recharge in 1 hour and power a car for 250 mile at 70mph?

Let's be really generous here and say you have the greenest car on earth and can get 50mpg at 70mph. That's 5 gallons of fuel, or 22 litres. That's already a respectable size for a suitcase. So if the most efficient car around running on hydrocarbon fuel can only just achieve your specifications, batteries haven't a prayer. I wish you luck with your research and development, but I don't think $458 million is going to achieve the order of magnitude improvement you seek.

Or a hydroxy generating system that can power a home generator?

Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you mean then that's a perpetual motion machine. Splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, then burning the gas to produce water again, can never give a net output of energy.

Or a solar panel that is cheap enough for the average home owner to install and power their entire home?

You may be surprised to learn that quite a lot of NASA's funding goes on photovoltaics research. Making them lighter and more efficient. They find it very useful for powering their spacecraft.

I'm going to Mars in 2013

[TheModelEskimo]

...and I'm taking an "atlas." Anyone else? Who wants to play?

haho

[paniq]

weird... for some reason, when I read "$485M", I thought "oi, that's cheap!"

Re:haho

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

Yeah that's about 0.001865385 Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac bailouts.

Quato says...

[joetheappleguy]

...Turn on the reactor!

Re:Quato says...

[MRe_nl]

Lori: JOETHEAPPLEGUY, are you all right?
[nods]
Lori: You were dreaming. JOETHEAPPLEGUY? Was it about Mars?
[nods]
Lori: [kisses him] Is that better?
JOETHEAPPLEGUY: Hmm.
Lori: My poor baby. This is getting to be an obsession

Re:first POST

[neumayr]

4-4-3

Volatile EvolutioN or

[SupremoMan]

Orderly CreatioN, depending on who wins the Presidential race.

Professor Frink?

[AC-x]

Did they let professor Frink name this one?

"Now I'd like to announce Nasa's new Mars spacecraft, the HOYVIN-Maven"

MAVEN

[n122vu]

I wonder if it will be equipped with an Opti-Grab? A lot of money for NASA to spend just to find out that it's not us the Martians hate, it's these cans! They hate these cans!

Re:Maven? Really?

[TobyRush]

People who write acronyms contain so much fail.

Mais Oui, especially when they appeaR to be Overtly creating the Name to fit the acronymS.

So when are we sending people again?

[Anonymous Coward]

2020? :D

Just more public dollars for rich kids to play

[Anonymous Coward]

Space exploration isn't well served by remote, safe, privileged people whose real goal is a comfortable living.

We need some real explorers on Mars right now, anything less is simply pathetic.

will Mars go the way of Apollo?

[peter303]

When the scientists run of things to over-hype? Build up expectation too much, then let the public, and they'll become bored.

Re:will Mars go the way of Apollo?

[WhiteHorse-The Origi]

It's not hype. Surveying a planet, particle colliders that could accidentally create a black hole(JUST JOKING!), and putting up a space station actually ARE cool! If we spent our money on NASA rather a missile-defense-system, we'd have flying cars by now, electric cars, great batteries, etc. You could go to the moon for a few thousand dollars, mars for a few million, and probably fusion power by now. But NOOOO, we have to spend our money on defending Arab oil reserves, nuclear missile silos, and flying a president out to aircraft carriers so he can watch a famous musician perform for the troops.

The follow-up mission...

[Tetsujin]

The follow-up mission, "Mars Astronomical Research Viewpoint INstallation", will establish a remote-controlled astronomical observatory on Mars. Through the thin Martian atmosphere they hope to be able to get a better view of Venus, with no pesky obstructions.

Re:The follow-up mission...

[timbck2]

If that one crashes, there will be an Earth-shattering "Kaboom!"

Re:Nasa Patents

[Tetsujin]

That's pretty funny...

It doesn't run Crysis

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw atmospheric gasses. The Mars Science Laboratory will take hours (yes, hours) of true color (yes, color, no blurry black-and-white shit) real-time (yes, real-time, no silly little frame sequences) HD (yes, high-friggin-definition) stereoscopic (yes, stereoscopic, aka 3D) video on Mars. Didn't come in your pants yet? That's why they leave the camera on during atmospheric descent, baby!

MAVEN website

[darrinallen]

Is there a website for the MAVEN PROJECT?

ghost.

[Anonymous Coward]

interesting, so while maven will be landing on mars, maVen will be in jail wishing he could have put up the dvdscr.

"Small" point of failure ???

[Anonymous Coward]

One could argue that the credit crisis that"s been looming on everyone since July 07 was engineered ...

Ok, some small banks are out ... but what about JPMorgan, or Goldman Sacks ?

Sure, people will get unemployed, commit suicide, and more generally rampage the cities with M60s ... but who cares about the poor bank managers with their salaries in the $thoushands per hour ???

In order to feed the hungry thingies, most of the world has to eat at most a bowl of rice a week ... Now's the time for the average joe sixpack ? Wheel turns, it's called "LIFE" !!!

Short reply from Russia and China's space agencies

[tandr]

"Good luck with that" and "ROFL"

to all funny taggers

[Anonymous Coward]

get a life, really

over 400 Million

[Friendly Pyro]

With the economy right now is it a wise idea to spend so much money to find out about something that will contribute to society in no way.

Re:Maven? Really?

[OriginalArlen]

A colleague of mine who's surname begins with the letter "B" got management to accept that the complex web of SNMP traps, alerting, scrolling displays on web pages etc was a Unified Monitoring System. Naturally it was called B------'s Universal Monitoring System... BUMS.

I like my place of work, we can get away with shit like that and we still have a retarded enough sense of humour to find it really funny.