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Royal Society "Creationist" Resigns

Posted by kdawson on from the gap-resistent-to-bridging dept.

Chris_Keene writes in to let us know that the Prof. Michael Reiss, who recently caused a storm with comments about teaching creationism in schools, has resigned from his post as director of education at the Royal Society in the UK. This news coincides with word out of the Anglican church that it is ready to apologize to Charles Darwin, 150 years after it poured scorn on his theory of evolution by natural selection. "The Church of England will concede in a statement that it was over-defensive and over-emotional in dismissing Darwin's ideas. It will call 'anti-evolutionary fervor' an 'indictment' on the Church."

25 of 658 comments (clear)

  1. That was an intelligently designed decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Actually, no, it was survival by the fittest.

    1. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by pilgrim23 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Creationists Evolved, Evolutionists were created....

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    2. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Creationists Evolved, Evolutionists were created....

      Other way around.

      Creationists exist because a clever human engineered a story ("In the beginning...") that could propagate from believer to believer in spite of of evidence to the contrary.

      Evolutionists exist because "evolution through natural selection" is the theory that has survived a repeated process of that has rendered (thus far) all competing theories extinct.

      If a memetic equivalent of an asteroid strikes (say, a sequence of DNA from a 200-year-old Galapagos Tortoise, that, when translated from base-4 to base-2 and divided into 8-bit bytes, produces ASCII for "This being copyright God, Inc., 4004 BC, and limited license is hereby given to this being to go forth and multiply", and said sequence is discovered before the invention of self-propagating genetically-engineered Galapagos-Tortoise-specific retroviruses), we evolutionists will be happy to reconsider our views. The creationists, not so much.

    3. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by AshtangiMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Evolution is not put forth as an explanation for the origins of matter or life. It is put forth as an explanation for how life, once begun, spread, adapted, and led to more complex organisms. What views are you interested in seeing "Evolutionists" reconsider? I have trouble with some of the scientist friends of mine, as they tend to work off of a predefined "operational model" which is required for the scope of their study. But they often forget that outside of this scope they need to reconsider their operational model. Most of them will concede that point after a brief discussion. But my religious friends never do the same. Science calls for constant reconsideration of premises, assumptions, theories, explanations, etc. Science is the business of proving or trying to prove yourself wrong.

    4. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by kestasjk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't tackle those subjects yet you always see those lumped into evolutionary discussions.

      You're absolutely right; people act as if it's creationism vs evolution, but it's actually creationism vs the whole of science. If creationism is right we've got geological science wrong, the science of star and planet formation wrong, the speed of light wrong, radioactive decay rates, the universe's rate of expansion, the doppler shift's effect on light, the cause of the background x-ray radiation, etc, etc.

      If it was just creationism vs evolution creationists wouldn't be so hypocritical when they accept the parts of science which they think fit.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    5. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by jswigart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      umm no.

      the theory of evolution makes no claims on the origin of life.

      the big bang is more of an attempt at that, sure, and it too supported by much evidence. like all things in science, evolution and big bang are the best we have right now given what we know, can observe and test against. that's infinitely more useful than what creationists have(nothing), and it certainly isn't a religion as you attempt to claim.

      science follows theories best supported by evidence. if evidence contradicts the theory it must be adapted.

      there is no reason to expect science will ever know how everything originated with high certainty. we may simply not have access to information needed to study and test with.

      feel free to provide your arguments for why evolutionists should change their views. so far you have parroted typical creationist nonsense, typically fed by total ignorance of the theories you are arguing against.

    6. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by x2A · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Actually science still can't explain where DNA came from"

      Abuse of word "actually", requires that following sentence is factually accurate. What you mean is that science still can't explain it to you. Don't assume that knowledge doesn't exist just because you don't possess it personally. "Generalising from self" is a form of inductive reasoning which should only be used when sufficient data for deductive reasoning cannot be easily obtained. You should remember though, that as this form of reasoning does not always yield a correct result, you should always be sure to word such uncertainty into your statements based on it so as to not inaccurately portray the level of research you have carried out which you base the statement upon.

      "The big bang was a theological idea used to give scientists a starting point"

      The big bang is a mathmatical idea resulting from divisions by zero in the time dimension... or something... it's not purely theological.

      "I reject it as an explanation for the source of all matter"

      The metric of whether a theory should be considered true or not should not be whether it explains the source of all matter, as explaining the source of all matter is not a prerequisite in explaining unrelated things and even many related things.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    7. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by tukkayoot · · Score: 5, Informative

      The big bang was a theological idea used to give scientists a starting point.

      I think it's interesting that you complain that the Big Bang, the origin of DNA, etc. get muddled up with evolution, and yet you are the one who has introduced these subjects to a discussion about about the theory of evolution. I think this is part of the reason these subjects get mingled together in the first place (besides the fact that they're all fascinating science that offers an explanation of our origins, albeit at different levels), somehow or another, these issues all get invoked beside each other, even if it's by someone who brings up the subject to make the point that we shouldn't do that!

      In any event, I think you're off the mark with this statement. The Big Bang developed out of Einstein's discoveries and astronomical observations -- the physics, mathematics and stars all seemed to indicate that the universe was/is expanding. If you follow that discovery out to its logical conclusion, you figure out the universe was once much smaller and more dense. Theology had nothing to do with it, even if "sudden creation" is an idea the world was already familiar with thanks to religion. If anything, it just paved the way of acceptance of the theory among the public. Also, "sudden creation" isn't the same as "rapid expansion," which is what the Big Bang theory is really about. Further, many people/scientists, for a long time, didn't presume either rapid expansion or sudden creation, but instead believed the universe was something eternal and relatively stable -- that's the "starting point" they were working from.

      As for "evolutionists" overapplying the concept of evolution, I see that much less than you apparently do, and when it does happen, I think you can attribute it to scientific illiteracy in general. If by "evolutionist" you mean "a person who subscribes to the theory of evolution," most evolutionists are ignorant about the nuts and bolts of evolution, as are most non-evolutionists. It shouldn't be surprising if they get abiogenesis and the theory of evolution mixed up. It is creationists who I see really get things confused by connecting the Big Bang with the theory of evolution though.

      Also, evolution, in the broadest sense, just means "change over time." That makes it a word applicable to pretty much anything in the world. You can speak of the evolution of the cosmos or DNA, and you're not wrong to do so. What might make you wrong is if you get into the specifics of that evolution.

      Even when we're dealing with specific mechanisms though, it may be fair to draw from the theory of evolution to seek explanations (or new perspectives) on other phenomenon. The law of natural selection is probably the mechanism that is most often invoked, since it can be applied to anything which replicates, can be modified, and is acted on by some sort of selection pressure (how many non-living entities like that exist is a matter that's up for debate). Probably the most common extension of natural selection outside the domain of biology is memetics, a way of looking at the evolution of ideas/culture. Memetics doesn't give you a grand, overarching "theory of culture," but it may be a piece of the puzzle, and gives us an interesting alternative perspective on things.

      As for the origins of DNA, this is an area where natural selection may be applicable. For the scientists engaging this issue, given the relevance of natural selection in the post-DNA world, I think it would be stupid for them not to ask, "Can we explain any of this with natural selection?" Some people may be overconfident that the answer is "yes." This likely stems mostly from ignorance among people who don't understand the distinction between abiogenesis and the theory of evolution, but a few more knowledgeable "evolutionists" do like the theory of evolution so much that they don't see any reason to make such a distinction.

      On the origin of matter, I know of very, very few

    8. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually science still can't explain where DNA came from

      And religion can't explain why God created birth defects.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by Bullet-Dodger · · Score: 5, Funny

      Actually science still can't explain where DNA came from or for that matter science cannot explain matter.

      Which is why I personally don't believe in matter.

      I would love if Evolutionists would reconsider their views but for them it is the Holy Grail and a religion

      Damn scientists and their unwavering, dogmatic belief in whichever theory is best supported by the evidence!

      I don't dispute evolution as in "Survival of the fittest" and change over time and adaptations. I reject it as an explanation for the source of all matter, dna, and life. It doesn't tackle those subjects yet you always see those lumped into evolutionary discussions.

      You stand brave against that strawman! I also reject evolution as an explanation for continental drift, tornados, and the northern lights. Take THAT, scientific dogma!

    10. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the focus of science class, nay all of school, should be to teach children how to think, not what to think. Facts and such can be picked up from books - proper ways of thinking are much more important to society.

      The other problem esp with climate change and evolution is that it has been politicised, and so effectively it doesn't matter any more what the underlying truth is, for most people your belief about it is formed as an extension of your other beliefs which don't have anything to do with the issue.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    11. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by Miseph · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The glitch in your argument is that few people outside of Biblical literalists and creationists actually believe that the universe requires a different model if God is present. In fact, many Biblical non-literalists who believe that scripture is comprised of moral and spiritual, but not necessarily historical, Truth believe the exact opposite.

      You say that "Evolutionists" are afraid to lose their jobs if the science is debunked... could it also be that Creationists are afraid to lose theirs?

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    12. Re:That was an intelligently designed decision by jimdread · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since literalists stake their fervor on a complete acceptance of the Bible

      Apparently, these literalists believe that the bible is 100% literally true. Where do they get this idea? Does the bible say that the bible is 100% literally true? I don't think it does, because it says several times in the bible that it is not completely literally true. For example:

      Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. (Matthew 13:34)

      A parable is not literally true, it's a comparison, an allegory. If somebody claims to be taking the bible completely literally, the obvious question to ask them is why they are doing that. If they are also claiming to base their beliefs totally on the bible, they should be able to point out the part of the bible which says that it should all be taken literally. Which they won't be able to, because the bible is chock-full of parables, stories, and symbolic language.

      That's where this problem is coming from. Some people have decided that everybody must accept that the bible is completely literally true. And it's not. It's a spiritual book, not a science textbook.

  2. What a waste. by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

    More than anything, this is an indictment on the scientists who pressured the good doctor out of his posting. He was bullied out for a misquote.

    Unfortunately, rather than engage in a reasonable debate over the unreasonable subject, he rationally decided to avoid the controversy completely by leaving.

    No matter what, the Royal Society is the loser here. Once they realized they were debating a misquote, the reasonable approach would have been to end the matter. Instead, they let the issue fester until a good man stepped down with a now-tarnished reputation.

    --
    John
    1. Re:What a waste. by mdwh2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Agreed, and just for reference (since Slashdot, along with the rest of the media, seem unwilling to link to them):

      Here is what he originally said: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2008/sep/11/michael.reiss.creationism

      Here is the clarification just one day later: http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?id=8004

      I think he expressed his views rather poorly in what was said originally, making it easy to misread unless you look very closely. And it was reasonable to express criticism over that. But the media should not ignore the clarification after it has been made.

      Sure, there's a valid argument that it's better not to mention creationism at all (even to debunk it and explain why it isn't science, as Reiss was suggesting), but let's be clear: he was not advocating teaching creationism.

      To suggest otherwise is just the sort of thing IDers want - do we really want them to be able to say "Leading scientists support teaching creationism in science lessons"? Of course not, which is why this myth should not be propagated.

    2. Re:What a waste. by yali · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Agreed. If you read what Reiss actually said, it is clear that he was NOT advocating for giving creationism any scientific legitimacy in the classroom. Rather, he was giving some very sound and humane advice for how teachers can respectfully reach students who arrive in the classroom as creationists. Among his suggestions:
      • Students should be encouraged to voice their doubts so that teachers can deal with them in the open
      • Educators should see their role as making sure that students know the scientific methods, theories and evidence, even if the students' beliefs conflict with the science
      • Don't expect your students to abandon their long-held beliefs soon, or even at all. Hold them responsible for what they know, not what they believe

      Everything in his essay seems reasonable to me. The fuss arose in part, I think, because attacks on the scientific community have forced scientists into such a bunker mentality that they acted irrationally (i.e., not like scientists)

  3. romancer by Romancer · · Score: 5, Informative

    The statement quotes Reiss saying, "Creationism has no scientific basis."

    He goes on to say, "However, when young people ask questions about creationism in science classes, teachers need to be able to explain to them why evolution and the Big Bang are scientific theories but they should also take the time to explain how science works and why creationism has no scientific basis.

    "I have referred to science teachers discussing creationism as a worldview'," he goes on to say, "this is not the same as lending it any scientific credibility."

    --


    ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
    ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
  4. No good deed goes unpunished by pvjr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Whether he was right or wrong, as I understamd it, A scientist should be able to state his ideas without fear of reprisals such as that.

    Its the scientific version of the Church vs Galileo.

  5. Re:please, please ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1.) This man didn't put religious belief higher than science. He just said it should be taught in school rather than ignored, but still taught in a way that promotes the theory of evolution as a science, and creationism as a religious belief not founded on logic and empirical evidence. He didn't want to waste hours on end talking about creationism--he just wanted to explain WHY its not science. Nor did he want to profess it was right.

    This is why philosophy should be taught (again) at the high school level. Creationism, intelligent design, etc., are important topics for any introduction to philosophy class. And when they are taught in a philosophy class, they actually promote critical thinking. On the other hand, when they are taught as an alternative in a science class, they only promote closed thinking.

  6. Re:What a waste. -- Mod up by irenaeous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You make this great point when you say:.

    To suggest otherwise is just the sort of thing IDers want. . .

    The effective firing of this man also plays into the hands of the "IDers". They can now decry the persecution of this individual (you know they will) and get good millage out of the argument because they would not have be totally wrong in this case. The Royal Society should not have caved in this way.

  7. Re:First Intelligently Designed Trout! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    wehat dio yoiui meaan fgins domnt woerk, yiou inswensatiove clode!

  8. Sigh, ... by geekoid · · Score: 5, Informative

    Gravity is a fact, the Theory of gravity is the mechanism by which it works.

    Evolution is a fact, Darwin's Theory of evolution is the mechanism by which it happens.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  9. Re:First Intelligently Designed Trout! by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Funny

    I AM A FISH!

    I am the walrus.

    That means you are dinner.

    (And before some smart-ass tells me that walruses prefer mollusks, yeah, I know. Now stop trying to ruin my joke.)

    (And before some smart-ass tells me that I did that all on my own, yeah, I know. Now stop trying to ruin my meta-joke.)

  10. Re:What a waste. -- Mod up by mdwh2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They can now decry the persecution of this individual (you know they will) and get good millage out of the argument because they would not have be totally wrong in this case.

    That's an excellent point.

    And not just IDers, but also anyone who wants to paint atheists as being unreasonable - for example, I see that the Daily Mail are already at it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1056715/Top-scientist-supported-teaching-creationism-schools-hounded-Royal-Society.html .

    For non-UK readers - the Daily Mail is a conservative right wing tabloid. Whilst it doesn't seem to support Intelligent Design, it is very pro-Christian, and anti-atheism, and this is just the story it loves: look at the references to being "hounded" after a "campaign" by "militant atheists" / "atheist scientists". And the sad thing is that, for once, I can't fault their story for being misleading - despite the biased phrasing, it's one of the few media outlets to be reporting what actually happened.

  11. Well, that's just the thing by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You know, that's the thing makes me wonder the most about the whole christian god thing. Essentially we're taught that the guy is a good and loving god, but if you look at what he does, he actually acts like a complete asshole. He'll:

    - punish people for something their ancestors did. It's a bit like me kicking you in the nuts because one of your ancestors sold slaves 2000 years ago. But, no, if God does it, it's a good and just thing.

    - he plays favourites among his sons, in a major way. See the Abel and Cain episode for the first instance of it. And that was already barely generation 2.

    - is an asshole about accepting gifts. Abel and Cain again. I mean, imagine me as a cranky old guy and two grandsons bring me gifts. And I'd go, "WTF? You give me a tie? What am I supposed to with that? Get out of here, you idiot. Get a hint from your brother. He gave me socks. He's my new favourite. In fact, I'll disown you, you little prick." Seriously, if anyone pulled that kind of a stunt, he'd be seen as an antisocial arsehole, and rightfully so. But if God does it? Nah, he's a good and loving guy.

    - doesn't even bother sorting evil-doers from good guys before doing a genocide or two in the name of good. See Sodom and Gommorah, plus the Noah incident. (I have trouble believing that everyone killed there was a monster, including some thousands of babies who hadn't done anything wrong yet.)

    - if he has to do a miracle, hey, nothing beats a plague or two or killing a few thousand babies to make a point. See, convincing the Pharaoh to let the Jews go. You'd think there would be ways to do flashy stuff that doesn't arbitrarily punish millions of Egyptians peasants and craftsmen who didn't even own slaves, nor have anything to do with the Pharaoh's decision.

    - has no qualms with punishing billions of people for all eternity, for merely not having heard a particular fairy tale. (The recent "anonymous christian" doctrine of Vatican kinda fixes that, but even there many see it as a heresy.)

    - for that matter, if you take it all literally, he seems to care more about whether or not you brown-nose him or his Junior than whether you're a good man and live by the rules. Seriously, we're supposed to believe that essentially a loving and _omnipotent_ God can't possibly forgive you for that original sin, unless you choose Jesus.

    - causes a war or two. Way to set the mood and an example, dude. E.g., that promised land wasn't exactly empty. You'd think an _omnipotent_ god could just snap his fingers and create an empty fertile island for his favourites. But, nah, let's make them kill some thousands of philistines instead and take their land. It's more fun that way.

    - encourage a little genocide, war crimes, rape, etc, while you're at it. Why not?

    - will randomly kick people in the nuts just to see how strong their faith was. Several biblical examples, plus used heavily to explain stuff like the plagues.

    - what better way to make a cryptic prophecy than to ask a father to kill his son, then essentially tell him it was just a practical joke at the last moment. Like being on Candid Camera with a cruel twist, I guess. Bonus points if said son is an adult by now. You know, just for that "how the fuck _am_ I going to kill him?" factor on the way there.

    You'd think that a sealed document to be opened on date X would do the same job of proving you always meant to have your Junior nailed, no? And you're omnipotent, so you _can_ make a seal that can't be broken. But, nah, let's scare the shit out of Abraham instead. It's more fun.

    - playing favourites with some of his children again, for no other merit than being the guys whose ancestor was the random guy chosen for such a cruel prank`

    - blame it on free will, or have it blamed in your name, when the world you created and uncertainty about the future create bursts of overpopulation and thus war, famines, and the like. (Bonus points if it results in witch hunts and pogroms, because, hey, if all evil is the result of free wil

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.