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Bad Signs For Blu-ray
Ian Lamont writes "More than six months after HD-DVD gave up the ghost, there are several signs that Sony's rival Blu-ray format is struggling to gain consumer acceptance. According to recent sales data from Nielsen, market share for Blu-ray discs in the U.S. is declining, and Sony and its Blu-ray partners are trying several tactics to boost the format — including free trial discs bundled into magazines and cheap Blu-ray players that cost less than $200."
Can anyone say DRM? Consumers do not like DRM and thus are not buying Blu-Ray. The poor economy is also a factor.
After all, Blu-Ray's real competitor wasn't HD-DVD. It was, and still is, downloads.
Frivolous new overpriced tech does poorly in tough times. Who'da thunk it?
Caveat Utilitor
I'd much rather see a good story with crappy special effects than a crappy story with good special effects.
what the hell does blu-ray offer that DVD doesn't?
oh a super high resolution that MOST people won't notice on their old CRT Television sets and only few would actually notice on their Hi-Def TVs. DVD for me thanks.
-- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
HD-DVD lost, clearly, but that doesn't mean Blu-Ray won. DVD is winning; and if it can hold onto a lead for several more years, long enough for a substantially better technology to go along, Blu-Ray will fade away just like LaserDisk.
Blu-Ray is better than DVD, but I don't know if it is enough better to survive and conquer.
In the latest issue of Wired, I got one of those "Trial" Blu-Ray discs. I would have loved to check out the movie and disc, except: a.) I don't own a Blu-Ray player. b.) I don't know anyone who owns a Blu-Ray Player. c.) I don't have interest in said movie. I mean, why the -hell- would I spend $200 on something I got in a magazine that I pay $15 for? If I do own the Blu-Ray player to play it, then why good does it do to tell me all the benefits of Blu-Ray when I'm already sold on it?
I have a PS3 which upscales DVD and plays Blu-Ray. Most of the time, upscaling is just fine for an action flick on my HD TV. I thought I'd be buying Blu-ray discs but I find myself just wanting to spend 20 bucks on a DVD rather than 32 bucks for the Blu-Ray version.
* I don't have a HD TV, so what would be the point right now?
* It's my (probably uninformed as heck) impression that not that many movies are out on Blu-Ray. I'm more into documentaries (which would look superb in HD) -- are they available and affordable?
* The players are not cheap -- and judging from the pattern of all similar tech devices, in a year or three, they'll be under $100 or so -- and eventually be downright cheap, once the thrift stores have switched from selling VHS players to DVD players.
* Finally, I have a substantial DVD collection and am in no hurry to re-spend all that money (especially since, until I get used to HD quality, DVDs look fine to me.)
Paleotechnologist and connoisseur of pretty shiny things.
Just lower the price of movies that come on BD. It's simply too expensive. Because of this, I buy most movies on DVD and only buy special movies on BD. For example, I just got Transformers. But my last BD purchase before that was about 5 months ago, but I bought a lot of DVDs in the meantime.
Twinstiq, game news
Discs that are more expensive than DVDs? Having to buy new type of player? Limited selections? Difference noticeable only on HD TV sets? Gee...seems like the perfect combination to me.
I won't install or use a BD system.
on principle.
sony: you lost a LOT of money on people like me who BOYCOTT you for all your various evil ways.
note to industry: upscaled dvd's are JUST FINE on any modern day video player or streamer (I use a 'popcorn hour' box which upscales just fine and is fanless and instant-on).
BD can die for all I care. I'll never fund your poor products with my money.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I already picked the superior format (HD-DVD) and Sony purchased its demise... The absolute last thing I'm going to do is purchase the Sony format.
That's like... Someone brings out a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle for $15,000 brand new that runs well, handles well, and is an all-around great car. You go ahead and make a purchase. Then, some conglomerate comes to market with a car that runs on cat shit for $10k and puts the fuel cell company out of business.
I'll walk, thanks.
You can throw in all the free cats and laxative kitty treats you want, I'm not buying.
Instead, maybe Blu-ray turns out to be the next Laserdisc.
I've been kind of wanting to get a Blu-Ray machine. But I've been waiting for a title that I can get excited about.
Can anyone recommend a movie - that when you watch it on blu-ray you say "awesome ... that was worth it!"
When I look at the BluRay section - I see movies like "SuperBad" and the latest chick flicks
Who the fuck cares about these on BLURAY - @$30 a pop no less
I figure if the re-master Pink Floyd's Delicate Sound of Thunder from the original AGFA film masters, I will be all over that format. ... but until then .... *yawn*
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
While we can be quick to claim hot topics as 'DRM' or 'Poor Economy' for the cause, it's more likely the simple fact that the difference between BluRay and DVD is negligible. DVD from VHS brought 5.1 surround sound and full digital picture. There was also the elimination of over-use causing damage to your tapes and of course the dreaded RE-WIND. BluRay brings nothing spectacular or revolutionary to the table aside from slightly higher resolution for an excessively higher price. Consumers don't need/want it. Myself included.
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People don't like DRM... there's nothing on it and DVD although inferior fills the needs of most people who are not videophiles.
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
I'll switch to Blu-Ray when the price comes down to about double a cheap DVD player and a Blu-Ray disc costs the same as a DVD.
Until then I'll simply download DRM free 1080p files to the PC hooked up to my 1080p tv.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
There is absolutely no compelling reason to get a Blue-ray player. None. Zero.
CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
It's the cost of the content. Content is king and always will be. Consumers will pay more for a disc player which offers more features and functionality. They won't pay $30 per blueray disc when they are used to paying $14-20 for decent quality movie on DVD. Add DRM to that and ya it's doomed to a early demise and they were fools for thinking they could succeed so.
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
Nonsense. Most consumers don't even know what DRM is, or if they do they don't care all that much. They already can't copy their DVDs (without some special software), and I don't see that harming the market acceptance of DVD players or DVD movies. Most consumers probably have no idea what DRM Blu-Ray uses.
Blu-Ray's problem is that it's a solution in search of a problem. VHS looked lousy (and progressively lossy) and was clunky to use; the DVD solved those problems by being a higher quality digital disk, so it was successful in the market. So... what's the consumer problem with DVDs that Blu-Ray is supposed to solve? "The resolution could be higher," just isn't that compelling a reason to upgrade.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
> However with blu-ray disks, i cannot picture the average consumer, or even
> the less common nerder consumer giving a damn over the inability to copy
> 40gig movies to their computer or to where ever.
Forget the nerds, the problem is the people who casually copy DVDs, often for sensible reasons like CHILDREN. DVDs and children are a sure fire way to lose titles. So a lot of people make copies for the kids. Others make copies for their portable media players. As soon as a potential BD customer realizes they will have to buy a BD copy (at a premium) and a DVD print of the same movie they ain't going to be all that interested unless they are the sort of hard core video quality freak that has a bunch of laserdiscs already. (assuming they are old enough)
Democrat delenda est
Sony has not been able to convince people that their DVD players are "broken" (obsolete, etc...)
This falls into the same category as satellite radio -- XM/Sirius have not been able to convince radio listeners their radio is "broken" and needs replacement, upgrade, etc...
Both are just novelties and will never go beyond just that, a new toy. DVDs/CDs fixed something that was "broken" stretched/worn-out/broken media tape. Ah the hiss of a worn-out cassette, and remember the cassette that you tried to play that sat in a 120f vehicle all day --- strrreeetch! Or the one you tried to play before the interior of your car warmed-up in the midst of winter --- snnnaaapp! etc... DVDs/CDs "fixed" these problems, not to mention quality... folks said, "I have to get one of these!"
With Blue-Ray... folks think it is "neat", but are perfectly content with their current digital media and they still remember how bad those analog tapes were in comparison. And in the case of satallite radio the feeling is mutual, "my favorite radio station still comes in loud-and-clear... why should I pay for something that is free?"
[apologies in advance for the satellite radio tangent, but it is somewhat relevant]
Yep. It's simple microeconomics. The marginal benefit is not greater than the marginal cost, resulting in market failure.
Those of you claiming that upscaled 480p looks as good as native 1080p have probably never compared them side by side.
If you need to hold them side by side to tell the difference, the difference is not great enough.
People were willing to upgrade from VCR tapes to DVD because of the range of advantages - smaller, better quality, you didn't have to rewind it, it almost never jams, if the machine *is* goofed up it doesn't shred your DVD, they have some rather nice special features like directors commentary.
Only the "Better Quality" option applies to Blue Ray - and the difference between DVD and Blue Ray *or* HD DVD is a *lot* less than the difference between DVD and VHS.
If it were just the quality issue, laserdisk would have beaten VHS a long time before DVD's were around. DVD's were superior on a number of fronts, and are 'good enuff' on anything for the moment.
One doesn't really need to be able to read the writing on the One Ring while Frodo's wearing the damn thing to enjoy LOTR - {G}.
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Show a casual user a DVD on a 42" 1080p TV from 8' away, then show them a bluray on the same TV from the same distance. Their jaw will drop unless they have worse than 20/40 vision. The differences aren't small, you just have to know how to compare them.
Why would we buy a blu-ray? We have DVD players in our SUVs, we have hand-held DVD players for $99. We have DVD players/burners in our computers. A DVD is the media we can use where we want to use it.
Blu-Rays are expensive, need an expensive player, and can't be used with all our devices.
The only "advantage" beyond new and shiny bling appeal for techy nerds, is dubiously better picture quality on an HDTV for new movie releases.
It isn't good enough to be worth it.
We have a Netflix account, we can get (basically) unlimited DVDs in the mail. But we really don't use it much. We get maybe 2 rounds of DVDs per month, if that. The reason?
Instant downloads.
It's not all movies, and it's not all the latest movies. But with a Netflix account, we can watch a wide selection of movies on demand from the computer. It's fairly simple, it's fast, and it's entertaining. We deal with the loss in quality in order to get convenience. The quality is fair (not great) but not having to worry about scratches on the disk, returning the disk, the disk getting eaten by the dog, forgetting to return it, waiting for the next selection to show up 3 days later, etc. is all worth it.
In our household, physical media is virtually dead.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
The entire group of Blu-Ray haters (the bastard child of Sony Haters and HD-DVD fanboys) simply will not give up, trying to use a SINGLE WEEK of video sales in a totally off-peak sales time to point to Blu-Ray failing.
Much like the confederates who yearned for the south to rise again and never accepted the victory of the Union army, some people simply cannot wake up to the fact of the inevitability of Blu-Ray.
This was of course true well before HD-DVD failed, for those who cared to think. But it should be rather obvious to anyone technical now - Blu-Ray has already won.
Over time blu-ray prices will fall, blu-ray player prices will fall. Eventually trying to find a DVD player will be like trying to find a VCR - they simply will not be carried. And with good reason, why buy a DVD player when generally a Blu-Ray player will upsample quite well and play all your old DVD's just fine?
From there DVD's are sold less and less as there is less reason to buy them as Blu-Ray prices fall due to manufacturing costs declining (and they will decline if for no other reason than PS3 games are pressed on Blu-Ray).
Those that think video sales will overtake Blu-Ray of course ignore things like the recent Comcast bandwidth cap and the practical reality of the internet providers infrastructure to most people's homes, not to mention the simple fact that humans like to own and share stuff - and a physical disc can be shared in ways downloaded video cannot be, at least until content providers wake up and smell the sales potential.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
BluRay is having a tough enough time without slashdot airing repeated hit pieces.
Wait, I thought you said BluRay was doing great?
DVD cost of production = $.50
BluRay cost of production = $1.25
DVD cost to consumer = $15
BluRay cost to consumer = $27
The MPAA doesn't understand that a movie isn't worth $27, and there's no justification for the price.
In fact, I'm buying no Bluray movies, and furthermore, I'm buying less DVD's now because I know I'll want to buy them as Bluray once the price becomes reasonable.
Bluray player and media sales and profits would triple if Best Buy would lead the charge with the following policy: All Bluray titles will be priced exactly $2 more than the corresponding DVD prices. There would be an avalanche of newly converted Bluray buyers. In the meantime, there are going to be less Bluray and less DVD sales. Hell, there are 20 different ways to get DVD quality movies on demand for less than $5 each.
$27 average price make BRD's uncollectable. Give the collectors a reason to open their wallets.
Most of us just simply don't care. I would rather drop $1000 on another lens for my DSLR than on a TV that I only watch at most 2hrs any given day. My TV is only 24". My neighbor down the street would rather spend $1000 on a new tree for her back yard (her TV is only 14"). The kids two doors down would rather spend the money on new hockey equipment for the upcoming season. Another friend of mine will spend that $1000 on upgrades to his boat. Its all about priorities, and for most of the world, the priority is not home theatre.
Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
Actually, I think the parent has hit the nail on the head. As an early adopter (PS3 from day one), I've bought a lot of Blue ray disks, but far less than I would have if they didn't ask for $30 each.
I'd be happy to eventually replace my entire DVD collection at $10...$15; but not at thirty. As it is, we only purchase the movies that we like the very best; if it is so-so or just a popcorn flick (light humor, yet-another-sequel, etc.) we don't get it on Blue ray, even if we don't already have it -- we'll just get a DVD.
I really love the hi-res, too (and can see it, too: 204" screen); but ten disks x $30 is $300, and a hundred is three grand; I have *many* hundreds of DVDs, and there's no way I'm going to replace them just as a matter of course.
As more good movies come out, or let's at least say movies that appeal to my family, we'll slowly build up a considerable collection in the hidef format. But a mass replacement... no. Not until they stop charging so much.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Most average Joe doesn't care about neither DRM (don't know what it is) or the increased resolution (DVDs good enough).
The people who care about the increased resolution is mainly us geeks, but as we don't buy that DRM shit it implies that no-one buys Blu-Ray.
I have several hundred (around 600) DVDs in my collection. I didn't bother with DVDs at all from the beginning due to the stupid region coding, bought my first player when I saw an ad for region free player 1998, but still didn't bother much due to the DRM, but later DeCSS arrived and I felt like DVDs would be a safe buy.
Blu-Ray contains a shitload of DRM garbage so there is quite unlikely that I could make a safe purchase. There are several systems which all need to be cracked before I would get the slightest interest in Blu-Ray.
If HD-DVD had been the elected format, then I would have invested, because that had mostly been made safe already (that is cracked) so it was useful, but those shitty Blu-Rays contains several layers of DRM shit more.
To save the Blu-Ray format, please remove the DRM, (and the stupid stupid region coding) otherwise put it up yours ...
DVD quality is more than adequate, it's better than I ever expected.
There are other technologies i'd like to see long before a 'higher-res DVD' tech.
More convenience would be nice -- like being able to view any item from my movie collection at the press of a button; ability to seamlessly transfer my movies around without having to deal with bulky disks or DRM restrictions.
I just don't understand it when people say DVD is "good enough". You can see the compression artifacts! (and that's on a low resolution display)
DVD is absolutely good enough for me. All else being equal, of course I'd like better resolution. Sometimes I do find DVD artifacts bothersome, and I certainly resent it when they're poorly encoded. Of course, Blu-ray discs can be poorly encoded too, but it's liable to be less of a problem. Still, with my eyesight barely at 20/20 anymore, and my aging 32 inch LCD subtending no more than about 19 degrees of visual angle (that's at about 8 feet), the difference in resolution makes a lot less difference to me than to someone half my age watching a 50 inch set at the same distance. On top of which, when I watch movies, I tend to get caught up in things that are somewhat peripheral to the quality of the medium -- plot, acting, cinematography, etc. I've often watched movies with scratched film projected by crappy projectors. I often listen to audio recordings that are 50+ years old. A moment or two in and I don't notice anymore. I do have trouble with poorly encoded MP3s, but there's still a range where I can tell the difference and just don't care.
Also, my impression is that it would be a lot more difficult to rip Blu-ray discs to my media box, and it would certainly take up more space. So I'll probably buy a Blu-ray player at some point, perhaps for my computer (if it turns out that ripping problem is solved). But it's not worth even $200 to me right now. DVD is good enough for my needs right now.
If they made Blu-Ray movies as cheap as buying DVD versions then it would be a viable choice.I have a blu-ray burner in my PC, but pack of 3 blank dual-layer BDRW discs is still about $120!!! That HAS to be as a result of the MPAA fixing ludicrous pricing on media to discourage movie piracy, rather than actually justifiable as disc production costs. If so its particularly unfair as you still have to pay the MPAA tax even if you just want the discs to store your own data on.
Most people actually don't care about the higher res. of blu-ray for 3 reasons:
1) The price difference between the same movie on BD and DVD is a total rip=off.
2) They are not releasing that many new BDs when compared to DVDs, and are also trying to maximse sales of less popular movies on BD by holding back releasing even older blockbuster movies on BD such as Star Wars adnd Lord of the Rings. iThe point they don't get is that no-one wants to buy crap movies no matter how high resolution they are.
4)) The majority of people still dont even have the hardware to see the difference, even if they think they have bought a high def setup. THis is for two reasons: There's lots of non-technical consumers who still connect up even their HD equipment such as blu-ray players with RGB or SVGA cables, and because they see some kind of picture they think that it must be working properly.
Also significant extra confusion was caused by purposely misleading marketing of HDTV by tv manufacturers: There are still new digital TVs being sold that actually have native screen resolutions (pixel counts) so low that are phyiscally incapable of displaying a 720p (broadcast res HD) picture in full definition, let alone a 1080p (blu-ray res HD) one. Yet those same TVs are being sold with criminally misleading "HD-Ready" stickers all over them.
As far as I can make out, "HD-Ready" just means the TV will display some kind of a downscaled picture when plugged into an HD signal. It certainly doesn;t mean what you would reasonably think, that if given an HD signal it will actually display an HD picture. Unfortunately lots of buyers make the wrong assumption about those weasel words and of course the kid at Best Buy who gets paid based on sales performance isn't going to make any effort to correct them.
Consequently you can't blame people when they incorrectly conclude there's actually no difference between DVD quality and Blu-Ray quality, because in many cases they're not actually seeing any difference.
You have completely forgotten to mention the ultimate reason for us Blu-Ray haters to hate Blu-Ray, it's named DRM, Digital Restrictions Management!
Nope, covered that in a different post.
I guess your point is by decreasing the price average Joe, who doesn't know about the DRM shit, will be fooled to buy Blu-Ray, and we Blu-Ray haters loose.
I am saying nothing about price. I am saying everything about cost. And availaiblity. I am saying that in three years Blu-Ray "wins" because the only disc player you can buy is a Blu-Ray player, or a used DVD player. When everyone has blu-ray players it's pretty obvious it has won.
Then discs will naturally follow, because companies will eventually ship all movies on Blu-Ray when the costs are the same. Why wouldn't they? Thus in five years all discs you buy are Blu-Ray discs. There is no "battle" like with HD-DVD (though again there was hardly a battle there to begin with anyway) because the result is already obvious.
And DRM haters (like myself, which is why I did not include that group) can be thankful because with Blu-Ray, the DRM is going the right way for once. There are fewer regions. And there are mainstream titles shipping with no region control at all (in fact after a year a movie is not supposed to inlcude it). If you hate DRM, welcome some semblance of sense into the video market with Blu-Ray.
This is all better than DVD which had way too many regions and thus made getting a region free player so mandatory. With Blu-Ray it doesn't matter as much.
Sure it has some new super duper protection on the disc - that's already been cracked, just as all such protections always are. It seems pretty pointless to me to get upset over something that has no effect on my life, and a cracked DRM is one of those things. The guys who should be upset are the idiots that paid for all that to be developed. You think they would have learned with DVD. Just wait until you see whatever scheme they have cocked up (mispelling or not? You decide) for holographic storage....
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Show the same casual user the receipt for the 1080p TV at their local Circuit City, and watch that jaw close right back up.
The TV playing behind me right now cost me $65. It's a 19" tube-TV, it's about 4-5 years old, and it has many years of life left in it thanks to the automatic down sampling done by the Dish DVR and the DVD player that gets occasional use. When we watch DVDs, we usually do it on our laptop computers. And even with the dish DVR, we're just as likely to go to digg/slashdot/myspace/youtube or use NetFlix for movies as watch the TV.
The problem with the TV is that it's a limited medium; you sit and watch movies or shows on it. No matter how much you spend on it, the TV is still a TV. But $500 gets you a decent, intro-level laptop.
The laptop can play a movie at comparable resolution to your $4000 "1080i" plasma TV. But, after watching your movie, you can then do some blogging, read the news, chat with a buddy, play a game or two. All on *your* timeline. Think about it... what are you doing right NOW!?!?!
I hate to say it, but once the price becomes reasonable, the long tail beats mass media every time.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
I don't know what the latest #'s are but after this past holiday/superbowl season, HDTV penetration was only 25% in the US. Which means that the consumer base for blu-ray disks is only a quarter of the market for DVDs.
The real question is whether blu-ray will entrench itself prior to downloadable HD movies becoming popular. Yes, I know blu-ray is a much better quality than downloadable HD right now. But its not always about quality, sometimes it is simply about "good enough". That is why people are currently satisfied with upscaled DVDs.
I have a reasonably nice TV (720p Sony Bravia) and a PS3 as a blu-ray player. I have a nice little collection of blu-ray movies. I LOVE the increased fidelity of the image. It isn't just the resolution - it is the lack of compression artifacts, increased color depth (no banding), etc. that makes watching a blu-ray movie so much more satisfying and enjoyable than watching the same movie on DVD.
Watch Dark City on DVD and on Blu-Ray -- the difference is startling. I am at the point now where I am getting increasingly reluctant to watch a movie on DVD - the image is just so soft and filled with distracting image artifacts.
Now, I would buy more blu-ray movies, but here is the problem for me: There have not been any really GOOD movies coming out this whole summer. What a long dry spell for the home movie enthusiast. Just about every new film released this summer has been awful dreck - insipid teen movies, bad comedies, crappy "paycheck" dramas, etc. I keep going every week, wanting to get a new movie, and I keep coming away empty handed because I just cannot bring myself to buy the junk that keeps getting released. The high point of this month is going to be "Iron Man". I bet the sales of that blu-ray release go through the roof.
planet texture maps and more
Show a casual user a DVD on a 42" 1080p TV from 8' away, then show them a bluray on the same TV from the same distance. Their jaw will drop unless they have worse than 20/40 vision.
The differences aren't small, you just have to know how to compare them.
The jaw will only drop because of the yawn. "The second one looks sharper," the casual user will say, while thinking, "I don't care."
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
It's not really an issue of intelligence, it's an issue of ideology.
I think DRM is stupid, pointless, and generally only going to lose you customers, but I don't passionately hate it, because, to be honest life's too short.
It makes the studio execs feel better, it doesn't really inconvenience me, so why should I care, why should anyone care?
My main deal is just that I don't want hardware I've bought and own to act on someone else'e behalf. It's mine, it should do what I tell it to.
Bow-ties are cool.