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Maryland Police Put Activists' Names On Terror List
aaandre writes with word of a Washington Post story which begins:
"The Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent activists as terrorists and entered their names and personal information into state and federal databases that track terrorism suspects, the state police chief acknowledged yesterday. The police also entered the activists' names into the federal Washington-Baltimore High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area database, which tracks suspected terrorists. One well-known antiwar activist from Baltimore, Max Obuszewski, was singled out in the intelligence logs released by the ACLU, which described a 'primary crime' of 'terrorism-anti-government' and a 'secondary crime' of 'terrorism-anti-war protesters.'"
According to the article, "Both [former state police superintendent Thomas] Hutchins and [Maryland Police Superintendent Terrence] Sheridan said the activists' names were entered into the state police database as terrorists partly because the software offered limited options for classifying entries." Reader kcurtis adds "The State Police say they are purging the data, but this is one more example (on top of yesterday's news that datamining for terrorists is not feasible due to false positives) of just how badly the use of these lists can be abused."
...those jokes are getting less and less funny.
That's all I have to say about that.
This isn't new. The government's sneaky voyeurs have pulled this shit time and time again against nonviolent "subversives".
The thing which scares me more is the CLETS.
CLETS is basically a law-enforcement database which compiles info on people regardless of charge or conviction. I found out about it after my buddy interviewed well for a prison job only to be called at the last minute -- he was denied employment(even after having passed the DOJ LiveScan) because of a petty theft charge of which he was never convicted. Doing more research, we found that basically any cop can write anything about you that they want whether or not you were charged or convicted. It's a sneaky way to criminalize somebody without actually going through the legal motions.
It's been awhile since I checked it out, but from what I recall it had something to do with www.leo.gov and its "public inquiry" phone number led to a place in West Virginia!
I wasn't able to find all the details(who may access the database etc.) but I suggest that you Californians follow the yellow brick road and hopefully discover what the good ol' boys think about you, before it bites you in the ass someday. Happy hunting.
Having personally used Multiple Data Mining techniques for several years now - It's not that Data Mining doesn't work, rather it's how its used. Data Mining is great at trend forecasting and if you're really good at what you're doing in it you can factor in probabilities of certain future events. The one key factor in data mining is a "Training Set" of Data to teach the machine(s) how to recognize the patterns. Since I suspect Terrorist come from every walk of life, every know nationality, and are using 1 off events this is throwing them a few headaches. The real key is to of course define what is normal, but if the rest of the world is as normal as are we here in the US they don't have a chance to pin point the Target Data (in this case people).
I would also suspect that the Terrorist Motives might be a key factor, but it's like pulling teeth to get any US Administration to admit that their foreign policy is screw up beyond belief, let alone something like a cruddy foreign policy might just result in cruddy foreign relations or popular uprisings around the world. If they did, then we wouldn't need data mining in the first place.
"May You - Live Long and Prosper in Interesting Times" -- by deweycheetham
Tax payers do not like funding divisions that are not absolutely required thus we are not creating the need when none exists.
If they've done something illegal, then arrest and prosecute them. If they haven't, then they should be free to go about their lives.
All innocent people should be equal in the eyes of the law.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
. . . the "Thoughtcrime" classification.
Who made this software? Someone who watches their "24" DVD set over and over?
So the classification options in the database were 'terrorism-anti-government' and 'terrorism-anti-war protesters' and they couldn't find any other that would fit? Did someone just go through all the options and stick terrorism- prefix to them. Are there terrorism-music-piracy, terrorism-illegal-parking etc. I guess if everybody is a terrorist it's easier to catch one.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
Are you sure they are non-violent? Like those activists we saw in the streets during the Republican convention?
They sure don't seem to be terrorists from what anyone has presented. Everyone has the right to be a left-wing, right-wing, religious, gay, slashdot, anti-slashdot, or whatever other type of wingnut they want. So long as they are peaceful about it, that is.
Perhaps the "limited options" were there for a reason - those were the only valid reasons for entry in the first place. Anyone who didn't match probably shouldn't have been entered in the first place.
Being politically active is not terrorism. Terrorism is violence with the aim of influencing public behavior in such a way as to subvert either the popular will or to force a government to give concessions to the group in question.
These lists could be a really useful tool for stopping stupid asshats who are planning attacks, but that utility is lost if they are full of garbage data. From many descriptions, they are becoming about as good as randomly flipping through a phone book.
Purging the garbage is an excellent idea, both to protect innocent people's rights and to make the lists themselves a useful resource.
"...names were entered into the state police database as terrorists partly because the software offered limited options for classifying entries."
So much for guilty until proven innocent. If the correct classification doesn't exist, then don't enter in the name until one does. You wouldn't put their names in as murderers or child pornographers. They are not terrorists, don't call them such.
When can we arrest the police for falsely labeling us as terrorists?
How about huge personal lawsuits?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
That pretty much says it all, doesn't it? The security-state mindset doesn't care what your actual politics are. It cares what kind of person you are. You're either a Good God-Fearing Christian American, in which case everything you do is Good and Right and Just, or you're an Evil America-Hating /C/om/m/u/n/i/s/t/ Terrorist Sympathizer ("fringe person" for short) in which case everything you do is Wrong and must be Punished. And whatever the GGFCA's do to protect themselves from the EAH/C/TS's is by definition The Right Thing To Do, while any complaints the EAH/C/TS's make about their so-called "rights" can safely be disregarded, because, never forget, They Hate America.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Da, Comrade. Where is the problem?
Government terrors YOU!
"I don't believe the First Amendment is any guarantee to those who wish to disrupt the government," [Hutchins] said.
I'm boggled.
That means, you get to watch them and make sure they're not storming the prison. That doesn't mean you get to disrupt their activities by putting them on terrorist watch lists because you're part of the grievances they're protesting about.
...Yummy! You're making me hungry.
terrorism-rogue-law-enforcement-officers.
Methinks it should now have quite a few entries added.
I work for a state agency that works with data quite a bit. If the people working there can enter data correctly 60% of the time I would be amazed. This is generally do to poor validation and apathetic workers. Then, the data is "mined" in either inappropriate or unintended ways. This information is handed up the food chain for decisions by people who have no clue about the nuances of the data, or even main concepts regarding it. All of a sudden, data mining doesn't work.
My main point here is to caution that just because an implementation of something is horribly flawed doesn't mean it is also flawed in theory. Data mining can be extremely helpful if done correctly. However, when a system doesn't allow a user to differentiate between a terrorist and a protester I would have some serious concerns about the abilities of the people running that operation.
continuing proof that Spiro Agnew wasn't a fluke.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
without the names of those who are causing the most terror & destruction worldwide at this time. &, they know who you are, & they've given themselves the power to eliminate anyone they perceive as a threat to their agenda. greed, fear & ego are unprecedented evile's primary weapons. those, along with deception & coercion, helps most of us remain (unwittingly?) dependent on its' life0cidal hired goons' agenda. most of yOUR dwindling resources are being squandered on the 'wars', & continuation of the billionerrors stock markup FraUD/pyramid schemes. nobody ever mentions the real long term costs of those debacles in both life & any notion of prosperity for us, or our children, not to mention the abuse of the consciences of those of us who still have one. see you on the other side of it. the lights are coming up all over now. conspiracy theorists are being vindicated. some might choose a tin umbrella to go with their hats. the fairytail is winding down now. let your conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.
http://news.google.com/?ncl=1216734813&hl=en&topic=n
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_re_us/tent_cities;_ylt=A0wNcyS6yNJIZBoBSxKs0NUE
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/world/29amnesty.html?hp
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/02/nasa.global.warming.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/05/severe.weather.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/02/honore.preparedness/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/09/28/what.matters.meltdown/index.html#cnnSTCText
http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/10/07/atwood.debt/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/opinion/01dowd.html?em&ex=1212638400&en=744b7cebc86723e5&ei=5087%0A
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/05/senate.iraq/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/washington/17contractor.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03kurdistan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080708/cheney_climate.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080805/pl_politico/12308;_ylt=A0wNcxTPdJhILAYAVQms0NUE
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/voting.problems/index.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080903/ts_nm/environment_arctic_dc;_ylt=A0wNcwhhcb5It3EBoy2s0NUE
(talk about cowardlly race fixing/bad theater/fiction?) http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/19/news/economy/sec_short_selling/index.htm?cnn=yes
http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=ApTbxRfLnscxaGGuCocWlwq7YWsA/SIG=11qicue6l/**http%3A//biz.yahoo.com/ap/081006/meltdown_kashkari.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/opinion/04sat1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
(the teaching of hate as a way of 'life' synonymous with failed dictatorships) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/newspapers_islam_dvd;_ylt=A0wNcwWdfudITHkACAus0NUE
(some yoga & yogurt makes killing/getting killed less stressful) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_re_us/warrior_mind;_ylt=A0wNcw9iXutIPkMBwzGs0NUE
is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felon
So what kind of terrorist did they hope to classify them as?
They aren't anti-war. They are pro-war, just for the enemy.
Hutchins said: "I don't believe the First Amendment is any guarantee to those who wish to disrupt the government,"
So, if I decide to vote against the incumbents in political office I forfeit my first amendment rights? Or is it only if I discuss doing so? Maybe I have to put a sign in my yard first? Or is participation in or organization of a rally against those rascally incumbents a necessary precondition? How about a sit-in? Civil disobedience?
This sounds like the kind of thing where the bar will become lower and lower over time.
Best not to begin...
I guess there really is no limits to the complete incompetence which permeates law enforcement. We all had an impression of law enforcement as not very intelligent, and this just sears it in. Labeling someone as a terrorist because they exercise their Constitutional right to protest. The first amendment is very clear. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of the right of the people to peaceably assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Crystal clear. Congress can make no laws prohibiting people to peaceably assemble.
And if congress can make no laws prohibiting it, law enforcement cannot enforce laws that do not exist. Therefore, law enforcement is violating the Constitutional rights of those citizens.
end of story.
They're using their grammar skills there.
And this is why all those people who say "I don't mind if they snoop cause I've got nothing to hide."
are asshats.....
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
The United States is a police state. Why is anyone surprised by news like this?
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Next categories for database:
terrorism-does-not-watch-Fox-News
terrorism-no-flag-pin
terrorism-no-support-the-troops-magnet
terrorism-fringe-person
There is nothing unique about this other than we know about it.
Power is always sought by those looking to abuse it. We need to get rid of the list, its not effective anyhow with dopes like this on it.
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
"What do you mean I can't fly?" "it says here you're a convicted terrorist" "I spat on the sidewalk, he wrote me a ticket, he didn't have a 'spitting on the sidewalk' check box so he ticked 'terrorist'" "yeah sure I bet you're one of those Iraqis who destroyed the WTC - we do have tickets to our special place in Cuba ...."
Stories like this underscore my feeling about Palin's quote from the VP debate:
"we're going to find ourselves spending our sunset years telling our children and our children's children about a time in America, back in the day, when men and women were free."
I'm sure that the Republican's view of this is one of war/conquest and that America will lose to some foreign non-democratic state, but today the more urgent issue seems to be loss of civil liberties. Loss of freedom from expanding government power. It's the ultimate irony that the party that espouses this quote is most likely THE party that will remove all our civil liberties and turn freedom into just a memory.
Putting people who aren't terrorists and who aren't likely to become terrorists on a terrorism watch list should either be a firing offense or a criminal offense.
I'm also in favor of criminalizing certain actions routinely carried out by law enforcement (police, prosecutors, etc.). Usually when excessive force is used by a police officer, the worst thing that happens is the officer is suspended or fired, even if the victim dies. Occasionally a police officer is fired. Even more rarely the police officer in question is charged with a crime. Also, if a prosecutor knowingly withholds exculpatory evidence, the most that happens is that the convicted person gets a new trial or is granted an appeal.
I'll give an example of how I think things should work, though I don't know that something like this has ever happened in the United States. Let's say a prosecutor withholds possibly exculpatory evidence in order to win a case where one of the possible penalties is death. Let's also say that the person charged is found guilty, and after exhausting all appeals is put to death. The original prosecutor should be charged with murder, first degree or second degree depending on the strength of the withheld evidence. If this happens in a death penalty state and the charge is first degree murder, then the death penalty should be on the table. If the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt* that the original prosecutor knowingly withheld the exculpatory evidence then the original prosecutor should be convicted by a jury and given an appropriate sentence.
People in law enforcement should be held to higher standards than the general public, not lower.**
*If such a case were to occur, an independent prosecutor should be appointed, since in most jurisdictions prosecutors all know each other and aren't likely to vigorously prosecute such a case.
**I know this isn't likely to ever happen. I simply think it would be more just than the current system.
If it was me, I would sue the department and the chief of police for libel.
There will always be a number of people who will abuse it unless there is a penalty and a good chance of getting caught. The same with any rule, law, or system. There are many rules, laws, and systems that don't even define penalties for abuse. And the chances of getting caught abusing some of them are minuscule.
when i read the summary, i immediately thought of when godspeed you! black emperor was stopped, for suspected terrorism. i also thought of the recent article discussed here about unconstitutional searches and harassment due to government database "errors".
errors indeed...
i've felt for a while that it's time to physically throw our leaders out of the capital building, white house, etc. clearly, they don't care what any of us thinks or wants. but as long as they play the emotional-voting game (religion, psuedo-morality, fear, and so on) they won't be voted out.
does that mean i'm a terrorist? or does this mean that i believe in the ideas that the country was founded on, that people truly are equal, and that *they* (should) work for and represent *us*.......
our "founding fathers" were all terrorists. (at least as far as the british were concerned.) i'm fairly certain (100%) that they'd be executed if they lived now.
not only is time travel possible, it's irrelevant.
If you disagree with the government you are an enemy of the state and it's the police that will deal with you. There's a name for this ideology: fascism.
There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
Socialism or Barbarism!
Food for thought: is there an entry for "terrorism-anti-abortion protester"?
Does the Maryland State Police throw everyone who protests into the terrorist list, or only those who protest against whatever groups or policies that certain members of the State Police like?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Not funny.
I think Osama Bin Laden and his Al Queda friends are not attacking us now is because we are screwing ourselves better than they can.
I think Osama Bin Laden is laughing on his hilltop compound and saying:
"We can start this and the stupid American will end it themselves. Those American fools are going kill themselves faster than we can. After they kill themselves we can take the spoils."
Unfortunately we are Osama Bin Laden him right.
Those idiots should be a lot more worried about violent passivists, not non-violent activists. Granted, the passivists don't do much, but when they do it's a lot bloodier.
Whoever tagged this donttasemebro, stop. I go to UF, that kid was a jackass. All his friends said he was a jackass. He did jackassary to get attention and was tased because he was being very disruptive, to the point where the cops were afraid of it getting out of hand.
Look, I'm all about stopping abuse of power. I'm against laptop seizures at the border, I know that cops in some states don't get to be a cop unless their IQ is low enough (source). But this kid was just being a really big dick for attention and took it way to far. End of story.
Unfortunately most people fail to see the connection between lists and any danger. The lists are being made to influence people who speaking out against the ones in power. But most people fail to see the danger of giving the power seekers ever more data to mine on everyone. Knowledge is power and the ones in power seek the use that knowledge to prevent people standing against their point of view.
With ever more detailed lists on peoples views, soon we end up with people fearful of what they say on the phone and in emails, for fear of their views could even just risk being taken out of context and in any way critical of the people in power. At that point, the ones in power are influencing people directly.
At that point, we live in a police state, where freedom is gone and replaced by fear of the ones in power. Problem is, we are getting there now, and from here on out, its simply a matter of consolidation of ever more detailed data mining.
The central reason why centuries ago votes were made in secret, was to prevent the ones in power, from seeking to influence the voters. Yet the power seekers are forever seeking to game the system to gain ever more information on peoples opinions. Now the ones in power are building automated systems to influence people.
Throughout history its been shown time and time again that the ones in power become ever more corrupt over time without any feedback on how they are behaving. Its been show so many times through history.
Most people don't realise the the game people in power are playing. People in power are not so interested in individuals. The ones in power are interested in adding everyone to different lists so they can then control and profiling groups of people, so they can then use divide and conquer tactics, to break groups of people up. The goal is that the fragmented groups cannot then stand and oppose the point of view of the ones in power. That is why they data mine.
The lessons of history have not been learned by enough people. Looks like the world is seeking to repeat the mistakes of the past. Freedom and democracy are constantly undermined by a minority of people in power for their own gain. Its just a matter of time and how far we are going to let them all game the system to push the excesses ever more unfairly in their favour. After all, its not as if they are robbing hundreds of billions of tax payers money to keep their rich lifestyles while millions risk loosing everything.
Anyway, if the millions of people can't buy bread, then let them eat cake. ... My point is, the names in history change and the names of their ideologies change. But what remains is basic human psychology and that doesn't change. The lack of empathy of the ones in power over their powerless minions never changes. For all their words, its only their actions which count and millions now face loosing their jobs and millions are treated unfairly by the ones in power.
In such a world, its no surprise that the ones in power would want to watch their minions very closely. After all, people could start to complain its getting all to unfair. But we cannot have that. We need ever more laws to protect the ones in power and ever more laws to keep the minions down and away from power.
The world will never change until everyone worldwide realises that people who constantly seek power over others have a recognisable cluster B personality disorder. All cluster B personality disorders are ultimately driven by fear. And the ones with the disorder constantly seek to control that fear and control everyone around them based on their fear. (There are multiple fears, two examples are lack of attention and the other is fear of lack of power. The attention seekers want more attention (they were deprived of parental attention as children. The ones who want power seek to prevent anyone ever having power over them again, the way they were treated unfairly as children).
These are not the kinds of people who should have power over anyone. They need
Not surprising, Maryland police in the Price Georges and Montgomery County areas (surrounding the DC metro area going up to Baltimore) are one of the most over-zealous police forces that frequently trample on civil rights.
Its a systemic issue that goes to core of the police force there.
Are just terrorists if they are protesting "the state", right? If you are not with us, you are against us!.. Free speech be damned!
And people call us paranoids silly for worrying about slippery slopes and governmental corruption.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Leftists and statists ARE terrorists. The things they stand for would UTTERLY DESTROY America. I think the onus should be on these "antiwar" ASSHOLES to justify why they shouldn't be on the list.
Mmm let's see 1. rapist? no 2. murderer? no 3. child molester? no 4. PoW? no - Hai guyz we don't have an option for piecefull dimnushtratur - let's put him as terrorist? ok cool? coool!
Next time there's a story about China ruling with an iron fist, look at yourselves before you go critisizing the way other governments are run. The USA is worse IMHO because they claim to be a democracy and the "land of the free". At least the Chinese aren't hypocritical and call a spade a spade.
-- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
its not meant to disparage anything or anyone. it is to demonstrate how relative things are depending on who gets to write the history books, and to make people think.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Can somebody please explain to me why a man trying to form some sort of human connection with a man who's torturing and about to kill him is funny?
I'm not saying it's *wrong* to make a joke of something like that or out of anything at all, I suppose. I guess I just don't see the irony in it. But go ahead, punish me for being Offtopic.
Property is theft.
Red Scare, what?
Hooray for false dichotomies! So much easier than thinking!
more closely resembling the original plan of government for the U.S.
The candidate that comes closest to fitting that is Bob Barr.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Police I doubt have the training or experience to classify people as terrorists and therefore shouldn't be putting anybody on any lists, much less law abiding people interested in peace. The police should instead be focusing on arresting violent criminals and spammers. If the police would put as much effort into prosecuting spammers as they do towards persecuting people who want to live in a peaceful world then society would be a much better place to live. The sad thing is that peace activists are the type of people who would never be allowed to join a police force.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How so?
Though Bob Barr and John McCain share some positions on some issues on others they hold different positions.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
It's open-and-shut, and there are actual damages. Now I guess we'll see whether they'll hide behind "sovereign immunity".
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I wish Ron Paul would've come up with his own party rather than running as a Republican.
Ron Paul ran on the Libertarian Party ticket for President in 1988.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I'm from MD. This is downright embarassing.
"unintended consequences" by james rawles. It *rocks*, Atlas Shrugs will put you to sleep in comparison.
Before launching into the predictable McCain / Palin rant and canned Republican-bashing, do just a little research: I live in Maryland. Maryland has a Democrat for a governor and our state legislature has been controlled by the Dems for the better part of 40 years. We're a solid-blue, one-party state in the truest sense of the word. We don't even get any presidential advertising because the state is such a lock for Obama (due to the huge black majorities in Baltimore City and Prince Georges County). Of course, almost all of the activity took place in Baltimore City and during the tenure of Democrat Mayor (now Governor) Martin O'Malley (conveniently pleading ignorance, of course). The same Governor O'Malley who created a "structural deficit" last year and called an unprecedented special session of the legislature last year in order to raise the sales tax, institute a $2 / pack cig tax, etc., after he promised during his campaign to only tax the rich (sound familiar?) The same Martin O'Malley who is threatening to raise taxes again if he doesn't get is precious slot machines approved during the upcoming referendum. We Marylanders are living in fear of losing what little is left of our financial freedom at the hands of the insatiable spending in Annapolis. Because, of course, O'Malley and his comrades in Annapolis know better than us serfs what is Good for The State.
If you think the Republicans are the only ones who'd love to remove your civil liberties, or even the most likely to do it, you're a complete retard. Loss of freedom, indeed -- MD is one of the last states where it's impossible for someone without government connections to get a concealed carry weapon -- unless you submit as part of your application documentation of the violent crimes *already* committed against you. Yeah, thank God the Dems are watching out for us Marylanders' civil liberties!
Incidentally, we here at Red Emma's Bookstore Coffeehouse in Baltimore used some free software to help kick off the latest salvo in the Maryland ACLU's battle to reveal the full extent of the MD State Police's activist surveillance program.
We used mairix, the excellent command line email search tool, to turn up some correspondence that basically caught the State Police in a lie - we found some messages from one of the undercover agents involved that predated what the MSP was claiming was the temporal extent of their operation, and pointed towards a broader police fishing expedition the details of which should be revealed as soon as (if?) the MSP and other agencies comply with the information requests the ACLU has filed.
It's really satisfying to use free software to fight for civil liberties!
...personality disorder"!
WTF?!?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_ref-14briefly and -to oversimplify- pathalogical narcissism.
... considered a terrorist and placed in the terrorist database.
Seriously.... read it.....
In today's terms, the founding fathers are nothing more than terrorist-loving war criminals.
Benjamin Franklin was almost tortured. James Madison opposed judicially sanctioned impalements and being drawn and quartered in public squares. His "cruel and unusual punishment" is embodied in the Constitution's 8th amendment: Cruel and Unusual Punishment. George Washington captured more than a thousand Hessian mercenaries at the battle of Trenton on Dec. 25, 1776 and ordered his troops to treat them with "respect and dignity and they will suffer no abuse or torture". Chairman of the Board of War and Ordinance John Adams wrote in a letter to Abigail Adams on 27 April 1777 of a "strong a light as the barbarity and impiety of Briton, in this persecuting war." The USA's Founding Fathers knew of torture and opposed it. It's such a shame the Bush admin has gone out of it's way to justify torture.
Should there be a Law?
You must not know very much about Lincoln if that's why you think so many people think he was a tyrant. I'd recommend picking up a history book on the Lincoln presidency to see what he did. Here's a hint: Not even Bush has jailed journalists critical of him.
Of course, people always make excuses for the great "Dear Leaders".
Oh yeah, and our "great" FDR also put a whole bunch of Japanese in concentration... er, I mean "internment", that sounds less worse, right, right... he put many Japanese in internment camps, ruining many lives. Such a swell, progressive man!
Um, dude, all this happened under the (Republican) Ehrlich Administration. The head of the state police is a political appointee, and the policies were put into place under Gov. Ehrlich's pick for the post.
Perhaps it goes without saying, but the state police (which was doing the monitoring discussed here) is under the control of the state governor's office, and during the period under question the governor was a republican. The state police is not under the control of city governments, and does not have to consult with the Baltimore City government even if it's operating in Baltimore.
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The idea of lists like these is not to stop stupid asshats who are planning attacks. They are intended to induce fear in the public.
Yes they are intended to propagate fear, at least that's my belief. However it' not fear of government, it's fear of protesters. People who fear government may overthrow that government but people who fear protesters are more likely to allow government to lock them up or otherwise deny them their rights.
the only real way to defeat terrorism is to make it much more profitable socially as well as financially for these people to join a different social group
This can be a real big problem if the economy gets worse or stays bad for too long.
Fslcon
Should there be a Law?
No they're not, these cops are not just, "of moral excellence", or any of the other adjectives enumerated. Nor are they any of the adverbs listed.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
From your sig:
--
It is unfortunate that the right hates rights and the left hates guns.
So, in other words, the left hates rights too.
The conclusion is not a fact, it's only a probability. "Joe learned how to make bombs in the army", "Joe is in an anti-war group"
Hay, where do you know me from? How did you get that info?
I suppose if you data mine /. you'll know that. It's true other than I learned to make nitroglycerin in high school. In the army I did learn EOD, Explosive Ordinance Disposal. You can learn to make explosives too, the "Anarchist Cookbook is a good resource (caveat emptor). And I am opposed to the Iraqi war.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The thing that makes Bush the worst president ever is because he's done bad things but is to mind boggling stupid to understand what he's done.
I can live with evil, it's stupidity I have a hard time with.
Just don't threaten the president or the chain of succession for president, it's illegal.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
If you think the Republicans are the only ones who'd love to remove your civil liberties, or even the most likely to do it, you're a complete retard.
Both Democrats and Republicans want to take liberty away. Democrats will take economic freedom away and Republicans will take personal freedom away. Actually they both deny personal freedom, both support the fake War on Drugs. Hemp aka marijuana is more dangerous than alcohol but both parties keep hemp illegal. One person that ran for president does support legalizing it though, Ron Paul. He said during the campaign he'd pardon everyone in prison, I believe, for a non-violent drug conviction.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I have had some of the same thoughts. I put it this way:
"Intentionally bearing false witness" (i.e., bringing false charges, lying in order to convict, false accusations, etc... applies to citizens, police, prosecutors, judges equally) carries the same punishment as the charge against the victim of such behavior. In other words, falsely testifying against a person charged with murder would carry the same sentence as that murder, had the defendant been convicted.
There is a lot of beauty in this. It fulfills the desire of many for "an eye for an eye", it is relatively simple, it metes justice... and perhaps best of all, it would reduce the frequency of such acts to a fraction of what they currently are.
Not trolling. I've heard people make this joke before. I thought that's what the OP was talking about.
I don't agree with the joke, but someone who isn't from around here wanted an explanation.
It is not a threat, it's a fucking joke designed to disrupt morons that are already wasting their time chasing dragons and hunting witches! Also I don't care about frivolous illegalities. I'll joke about whatever I goddamn choose to joke about. If someone has a problem with that I think they should be shot.
Win a signed Stephen Carpenter ESP Guitar from the Deftones: http://def-tag.com/?r=0008781
Meet the new boss - same as the old boss. (The Who)
This happened too in my backyard of Saint Paul during the RNC. Everyone is questioning the heavy-handed tactics.
"Ramsey County prosecutors have formally charged eight members of a prominent activist group with conspiracy to riot in furtherance of terrorism. The eight members of the RNC Welcoming Committee are believed to be the first persons ever charged under the 2002 Minnesota version of the federal PATRIOT Act. The activists face up to seven-and-a-half years in prison."
http://tinyurl.com/6lcadw
There is a wall between actions taken by the government against criminals and those that are military actions. The wall that divides the two was outlined in "The Magna Carta," and has made it into our country as "The Bill of Rights." As long as this "War Against Terrorism" goes on, this wall is being destroyed.
Unfortunately, this war has been going on forever. It just has different names. In the US, it use to be called "The War on Drugs" and "The War Against Communism." Basically, when government sees that its actions violate these principals, government just goes out and creates an exception. So, once you call someone a communist, rather than a trade union organizer, it becomes easier to separate him from everyone else, and convict him of crimes which might not fly for more politically mainstream individuals.
Not that this is nothing new. Agustus Ceaser used this tactic against other nations, at a time when the word "nations" meant people who were subjects of "city state nations" within one days march from you.
Maybe in the 50's it was easier to just get the mob to just ostracize ideas. However, in 2008, the tools that governments have to maintain the status quo is something completely unimaginable 200 years ago. Today, we have record keeping, datamining, surveillance capabilities that are unprecedented in their nature. Not only that, but the police and military are armed with weapons which make it possible for a small organization to control the mass populace, no matter how unpopular that might be to the general population. Just a simple example, I read about the sonic weapons brought out for crowd control during the Republican convention in 2000 in NYC. A small group of police could control crowds of thousands.
Anyone abusing the list for such purposes will compulsory be added for 1 year (or 5, depending on the nature of the entry). Let them experience for themselves what it is like to be on that list.
Legislators should suffer this too. I would create a list of senators, then randomly have two or three added to such facilities so that they can see what it does to them and what a miscarriage of justice would cost to rectify. It would clean up those efforts no end, I'm sure.
Knowingly making a false allegation of a crime is a criminal act. Terrorism is a serious crime indeed and the police certainly DID report these people to be terrorists while having no belief that they have ever or would ever commit a terrorist act.
In the process, they salted the databases intended to help track terrorist activity and so hampered the efforts to prevent real terrorism.
Then there's the matter of using the Constitution and the American flag as toilet paper....
The people who made that very bad series of decisions have proven themselves incapable of being decision makers. Perhaps they should be moved into lesser positions where they can't do so much harm.
"This man is a traitor. That's all the Party has to say about him."
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Sec. 401. Permanent authority for undercover operations.
Actually Obama does the same and he's not even president. (yet ?)
âoeSt. Louis County Circuit Attorney Bob McCulloch, St. Louis City Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce, Jefferson County Sheriff Glenn Boyer, and Obama and the leader of his Missouri campaign Senator Claire McCaskill have attached the stench of police state tactics to the Obama-Biden campaign.
âoeWhat Senator Obama and his helpers are doing is scandalous beyond words, the party that claims to be the party of Thomas Jefferson is abusing the justice system and offices of public trust to silence political criticism with threats of prosecution and criminal punishment.
But remember this is a "liberal" site. Using intimidation and even violence is perfectly okay, as long as you're intimidating the right side. Slashdot does not have an article mentioning Obama's using of justice and police as extortion means, both in his own name, and with organisations he's founding, like ACORN. After all "they're all the same" muslims-Bush-And we ourselves. However don't forget Obama is "different" : he brings "change".
But since we all known liberals are equally good as Bush who is equally good as Osama bin laden and other muslims and terrorists, liberals get to use the same tactics they suspect others of without guilt, and most certainly without punishment.
Yeah, what brings Bush to a new low is that instead of the ends justifying the means like with Lincoln and FDR, for Bush there is no justification, no logic, no sense, no idea other than party first, most, and always.
The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
Actually Obama does the same and he's not even president. (yet ?)
Not to rain on your parade, but the linked 'article' is complete and utter tripe. Not only is no proof offered of any wrongdoing, there aren't even any specific accusations. I can't believe any rational thinker would take it seriously. This isn't to say that Obama didn't do (whatever it is he's being accused of), just that there is nothing there that would allow one to make any sort of informed decision.
Hint: just because someone posts it on the Internet, doesn't mean its true.
The catchall is deliberate.
By offering only "limited options for classifying entries" as per TFA, this allows them to call any ol' tom, dick and harry who doesn't tow the line a "terrorist", using this utterly trivial technicality as an excuse. Limiting the options increases their power to control people by expanding terror labelling to the general community, and reduces their accountability for it.
It's almost as if they were getting ready to suppress a community uprising or something. I just can't imagine why that would be necessary ...
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXIenDGSAdPA?reactions
Needless to say obama finds himself the sole arbiter of truth, and clearly states that doubting the truth of his (absurd) campaign promises will result in civil AND criminal penalties. Obama, NOT anyone else, created "Obama truth squads" and threatened "legal" violence.
Stalin couldn't do it any better.
So please don't continue "raining on my parade", without having actually checked what the events are.
terrorism-generic
FRA: STFU GTFO
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Slavery based on race. Voting based on sex and income? Land belongs to those who take it, not those who had it?
You are talking about a country with the greatest human rights violations as its founding blocks. The greatest amount of slavery, the largest genocide and one of the latest to change things like forced sterilization of undesirables.
So return to what exactly?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The RAF despite its obvious claims certainly acted as a religious group rathen the a political group. I think you need to seperate the actual following of a god from being a religious group. An 'atheist' religion is after all possible despite of course not following a god. The think that makes a group behave religious, in the way the grand-parent probably intended, is if its 'believes' are a matter of fate, not fact. The RAF believed they were right, that their leaders had the wisdom. There was no room for discussion, evidence or dissent. An ideological fanatic will still have to come up with clear scientific evidence. He can never say 'because' or 'this is the truth'. Granted, the terms are very vague. Not all people who believe in god behave religious after all.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Because it's frickin' hilarious when you pussies get your panties in a twist.
Haha!
The police also entered the activists' names into the federal Washington-Baltimore High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area database, which tracks suspected terrorists.
I've believed for a long time that the so-called "'war' on drugs" was a major, perhaps the primary, excuse for building a fascist-supportive police structure. From narcs, snitches, and entrapment to asset confiscation and eternal "wars" against personal activities it all began there. So, was it worth it? Or would we be a more free and sane society if we were more like Amsterdam?
The fact that they're sticking people who haven't committed a crime into a police database is also questionable. If they haven't done anything wrong and really aren't under suspicion of a crime (last time I checked, peaceful protests weren't a crime), then why the fuck do the even need to be entered in any database?
I take no stock in Hanlon's razor and will not automatically dismiss anyone as stupid. MY razor say never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequitely explained by greedy self-interest.
Bush knows exactly what he's doing. His apparent stupidity is a feint; the man is just evil. I can live with stupidity; a stupid person can't help being stupid. Evil is a choice, and that's what I have a hard time with.
Free Martian Whores!
Lincoln's greatest crime was against the Constitution itself. The Union's changes to the way our Federal system works have persisted to this day, and laid the ground work for the police state we are now approaching.
Remember, the Confederacy believed in the Constitutional tenant that 'anything not explicitly provided to the Federal government was the purview of the States'. THAT is why they seceded, more than any other reason.
While they were gone, all the Federal mandates that had been failing to be passed into law suddenly had no opposition...
Likewise, the remnants of those chosen few who remained behind in Washington founded/reformed the 'two' parties we have today.
All that being said, yes slavery was certainly wrong, and yes an amendment could have been passed to explicitly grant this power to the Federal government. All of this is perfectly acceptable, Constitution-wise. However, the Union lacked the votes to do it, and were it not for the war it would have taken far longer for it to pass. THIS IS WHY the system was changed. The Federal system holds all the power now, and the states are largely just participants in the greater engine. Especially if they want to keep the masters of their parties happy.
Lincoln's greatest crime: Federalism.
While that link isn't the best, this little bru-ha-ha is all over the local media. A little research will show that it isn't just one blogger inventing things. Gov. Blunt really is fuming and really is slinging around some interesting accusations. Now, will they amount to anything? Who knows... But it isn't made up.
For a less partisan take on the issue, look here.
Obama has formed a "truth squad" in Missouri to refute factual inaccuracies spread by his opponents. McCain and Palin have already done the same in other states.
Some of the members of the squad are in law enforcement, or are prosecutors; McCain and Palin have done the same thing on their squads. McCain's South Carolina primary "Truth Squad" included Attorney General Henry McMaster and Seventh Circuit Solicitor Trey Gowdy, a prosecutor. The recently created "Palin Truth Squad" includes District Attorney of Dona Ana County (NM) Susana Martinez.
No member of Obama's squad is threatening to use their legal powers to arrest or prosecute his critics, and in fact, it's unclear how they'd do so, since libel and slander are civil matters in the US.
If it DOES have a chilling effect on Obama's critics, we should expect that McCain's & Palin's truth squads have the same effect, but neither the Obama campaign nor McCain's primary opponents expressed any concerns or complaints. For Matt Blunt to cry "foul" when his own side uses identical tactics is disingenuous and hypocritical.
Yeah, what brings Bush to a new low is that instead of the ends justifying the means like with Lincoln and FDR, for Bush there is no justification, no logic, no sense, no idea other than Bush first, most, and always.
There, fixed that for ya.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
We do this and yet gangs run rampant in this country unchecked. Our judicial system refuses to treat gangs as terrorists, yet that is exactly what they are. We treat the symptoms not the gangs themselves. Maybe if our judicial system had teeth, there might not be as much crime here...and some poor person protesting the war gets labeled just exercising their right to protest. F-ing criminals have more rights than citizens here.
.. is a crime in itself against all the people of the U.S.
'terrorism-anti-government' and 'terrorism-anti-war protesters.'? WTF?
I've already shed my school-bred illusions that any western government is truly a democracy, but when should it EVER be a crime to be against the policies of one's current government, or to be anti-war?
Anyone who ISN'T anti-war except for blatant "foreign soldiers are pouring onto our shores" self-defense situations should be immediately disqualified from holding any law enforcement or government position. The fact those two categories existed in their database at all is damning.
Interestingly enough, the internment camps were state specific. If a Japanese citizen had been lucky enough to have been visiting in, say, Utah or Colorado, and hadn't returned to California, then he could have lived out the war without suffering internment. Many did.
But notice that Hawaii didn't have internment camps, either. This causes me to think that it was economic collusion with the state government. But it's not proof. One can imagine all sorts of different stories, some with a reputable government, and some with a *really* corrupt government.
With Lincoln we have even fewer facts to go on. What we have is generally lots of specifics that caught someone's attention, and nothing about the local context. Frequently we can judge whether a specific act was legal, but it's much less common to be able to judge with reasonable assurance whether it was just.
Great leaders aren't always picky about the legality of their actions, but they should be very careful about the morality of them. Of course, Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler spring to mind as counter-examples, but I'm not sure I want to consider them as great leaders...even though Vlad kept his country clear of foreign invaders at a time when this was extremely difficult.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
In order to harass and spy on political opponents including ordinary citizens and the cardinal archbishop of New York. Just wait til the New Party candidate Obama gets his hands on what he can do with the "Patriot" Act.
I don't understand.
The US is turning into communist China or Soviet Union in their full glory...
McCain has truth squads as well, and they are also populated by people with prosecutorial authority, up to and including state attorneys general. How is Obama doing anything different? Both sides are running ads that are misleading at the very least, so it's quite logical for them to have people out refuting them, which is what these groups claim they will be doing. I haven't heard any claim of arresting or prosecuting anyone. They just say they are going to be refuting the attack ads. Do you have any evidence that proves otherwise?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
If you watch Bush with other leaders who have served fairly long terms he just looks totally lost all the time.
For a particular example try to find any photos of him with John Howard at last years APEC, it was something to behold.
The classification options were "limited" because the system wasn't supposed to include the people you put into it.
The justice system should have a legal obligation to determine whether this is a case of criminal fraud or incompetence, but whichever it is, none of the people involved should ever again be eligible for a job that pays taxpayer money.
Thomas E. Hutchins was a member of the US Army, a member of the House of Representatives, a police academy commander, and a state police secretary.
Note that you ARE expected to prove this. Let's see you provide a link by a credible source that they exist first.
And if Obama will stoop as low as anyone else, that's not a good sign at all. What would his response to 9/11 have been ? Nuking Mecca ? After all "it's all the same", right ?
You have to do better than the other bastards. "The same" is not good enough, and "basically the same as the rumours" is an abomination.
Note that you ARE expected to prove this. Let's see you provide a link by a credible source that they exist first.
Fine. Here's a link. You can find dozens more with a quick Google search.
And if Obama will stoop as low as anyone else, that's not a good sign at all. What would his response to 9/11 have been ? Nuking Mecca ? After all "it's all the same", right ?
You have to do better than the other bastards. "The same" is not good enough, and "basically the same as the rumours" is an abomination.
That's kind of the point. There's really no story here on either side. They both want to refute claims made by the other side. Given the ads that are running now, that's pretty understandable. That's all either one of them has said they will do. You're trying to turn it into a conspiracy.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
But it means you run quite a risk of being stabbed by an arab.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Sorry but your link is not at all the same. These McCain supporters you link to are merely sending out a second mailing refuting the "lies" (I do believe they're indeed lies, but that's beside the point here). That's perfectly acceptable. They're neither threatening nor intimidating the people who created the original mailing.
This is not what the Obama "truth squads" did. They threatened violence against anyone who "spread untruths" about Obama.
And they did start action against people who associated Obama with Bill Ayers. It is more than clear that indeed Obama would like his 20-year-long relationship with him suppressed, and is not ashamed to use the legal system to suppress criticism about this relationship, while, despite your (weak) attempt at providing a "morally equivalent" that turned out to merely share a few soundbytes in their names.
These groups are not at all doing the same thing. Not at all. Yes they share a name (and a very, very ill-chosen name it is for the McCain side). But it's not "equally bad" at all.
Sorry but you've not made your case - at all. McCain is allowed to post flyers saying he's a good guy, and Obama's allowed to post flyers saying McCain's a bad guy.
The problem is that Obama's using maffia tactics, and actual violence to suppress people from saying he's a bad guy. And that act alone does indeed make him one.
This is not what the Obama "truth squads" did. They threatened violence against anyone who "spread untruths" about Obama.
See, it's hard to have a decent argument when one of us is just making shit up. You asked for proof, so now I'm asking for proof.
Show me proof that they threatened anyone with violence. I've read several places already that they have explicitly said they are not going to be pressing charges against anyone, but are going to be refuting any negative ads that come out.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Wait wait wait wait wait. First you accept that Obama's truth squads indeed threatened violence and legal harassment and you proceeded to push the point that McCain has the same.
You not only accepted this as truth, but claimed it was morally acceptable because "McCain does it too".
Then I demonstrate that McCain's "truth squads" did no such thing.
And now you claim Obama's don't either, and ask for proof that he did. You weren't asking for proof just 1 post ago, in fact you considered threats and judicial harassment acceptable political tactics.
For anyone paying attention you've merely exposed yourself. You apparently think violence and lying is acceptable to defend your candidate, your viewpoints.
And yet presumably being aware of this blatant inconsistency you complain about not having a decent argument. You know "decent argument" means something other than "argument that I win". Especially if you're using deceit and lies to push your side.
I bet you, all the while accepting threats and legal intimidation as acceptable political tactics, call yourself a "liberal".
You want to see proof that Obama used threats and violence ? Read 4 posts back. It's right there. I'm not going to repeat it.
Let's have a decent argument indeed. Let's start with you not flipflopping like a crazed Obamaton.
Wait wait wait wait wait. First you accept that Obama's truth squads indeed threatened violence and legal harassment and you proceeded to push the point that McCain has the same.
No, I said that they both have truth squads, both have prosecutors in them, and there is no story here because neither side has done anything to warrant one. Learn to read, moron.
You still haven't provided a shred of evidence to support your claim that they threatened violence. That post contains nothing even remotely resembling evidence of threatened violence. You're just full of shit and making stuff up. No wonder McCain is losing if his supporters are as deluded as you are. Come back when you have some proof.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer