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A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the or-you-might-be-a-fanboi dept.

Technologizer writes "Some folks are outraged over the lack of FireWire in the new MacBook released this week. But Apple wouldn't be Apple if it didn't move faster than any other computer company to kill technologies that may be past their prime. And history usually validates its decisions. We've posted a decade's worth of examples that prove the point."

37 of 461 comments (clear)

  1. Outrage! by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Funny

    The new Macbook doesn't have an 8" floppy?!?!
    I won't buy one then, wah, wah, waaaaaaahhhh!

    1. Re:Outrage! by lysergic.acid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's not even the same thing. Firewire provides much faster transfer speeds than USB 2.0--3200 Mbps versus 400 Mbps. 8" floppies were phased out because of the technologically superior 5.25" floppies. and those were subsequently replaced by the 3.5" floppies.

      i'm not saying that all computers need a Firewire port, because that's obviously not the case. but having used Firewire compared to USB to transfer large amounts of data, i don't think Firewire should be dismissed so easily.

      i'm guessing Firewire has lost out to USB because it's more expensive to implement, whether due to licensing fees or inherent hardware costs, but i would hate to see such a useful technology be killed off just because USB 2.0 is "good enough" for the average user. Firewire makes a huge difference when you're working with audio/video editing, or working with lots of hi-def images or other large files. i would not have thought that Apple would discard a technology that is so vital to their traditional customer base.

    2. Re:Outrage! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I strongly suspect that the reason wasn't the cost of adding a firewire port per se. Firewire(albeit in the annoying 4 pin form) shows up on a fair portion of genuinely cheap and awful PC laptops. Firewire addon cards are fairly modestly priced, and Apple clearly wasn't nervous about raising the price of the macbook in order to add the features they wanted.

      This seems like a fairly blatant attempt to enforce separation between the macbook and the pro. Now that both are practically identical in build quality and the difference in GPU performance is merely large rather than absolutely enormous, they need a differentiating factor. Firewire seems to have been chosen. I suspect that Apple knows what they are doing, Apple zealots are zealous, most of them will suck it up and pay, and they can use their top of the line construction to sell macbooks to switcher college students. It sure isn't a nice thing to do, though.

    3. Re:Outrage! by altek · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I am thinking that they are starting to try to wean people off of FW because USB3 is on the cusp of becoming available in consumer devices. It will likely replace both USB2 and FW.

      --
      THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE
    4. Re:Outrage! by lysergic.acid · · Score: 3, Informative

      you probably haven't seen them because you just don't use them. but that doesn't mean they're not useful or that no one uses them.

      a lot of external hard drives have firewire ports. most major external storage vendors will sell two different flavors of each device, one that comes with firewire and one with USB only. but most end users usually opt for the USB models as they're cheaper.

      i mean, if you're only transferring 100-200 MB of data then it probably doesn't seem like a very significant difference--what's an extra 3-4 seconds, right? but if you're transferring 50 GB of data, then firewire versus USB could be the difference between a 2 minute transfer and a 15 minute transfer. and if you have to do large data transfers like that on a regular basis, the time savings start to add up.

    5. Re:Outrage! by HSpirit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      *Seen a firewire device

      I have a firewire iPod mini (yes, it's old - but it still works, why should I get rid of it?), three firewire backup drives for the old G4 we use as a server at my workplace (yes, again, it's old - but it's an inexpensive recycling of old equipment for a useful purpose which has enabled our small business to free up cash for other uses).

      *Seen a firewire port on anything besides a faulty motherboard I once had

      Just so this doesn't appear like a Mac-only rant, my wife's 2 year old PC also has Firewire built into the motherboard. On anything but cheap PC trash it's pretty ubiquitous...

      *Seen anyone using a firewire device

      Then you don't get out much.

      I don't think many people care, at least here in Australia. :\

      Well I'm in Australia and I will certainly be keeping clear of the MacBook - but then again, I agree with another post's suggestion that this is part of an Apple strategy to (a) ease the market away from Firewire, and (b) differentiate the MacBook market (student etc. that uses their Mac for nothing more than web/email/productivity apps) from the MacBook Pro which is for users that want all the bells and whistles and are prepared to pay for them.

    6. Re:Outrage! by kromozone · · Score: 4, Informative

      Firewire 3 (1394c) provides speeds of up to 3200mbps, over standard ethernet cables no less, and the port can function simultaneously as a 1394c port and an ethernet port. 1394b runs at 800mbps and 1394a at 400mbps. All 3 have different port configurations, although 1394b is backwards compatible with 1394a so long as you have a 1394b port to 1394a port cable. Unfortunately, because it looks like a fantastic standard and has been out for over a year now, 1394c is not available anywhere. I could understand if they had dropped 1394a for 1394b, forcing people to buy compatible cables wouldn't be such a bad thing, but dropping firewire entirely is silly.

    7. Re:Outrage! by Toll_Free · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Please use real math.

      The differences you cite would mean 50 gig of data would take approximately 100 more seconds.

      15 minutes and a minute and a half are two different things. Just ask your gf next time YOU'RE done having sex :)

      --Toll_Free

    8. Re:Outrage! by Hes+Nikke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      were you thinking of this? Steve forced the removal of the diagnostic port from the original Macintosh because he thought it could be used for augmenting the system. X_X

      Burrell decided to add a single, simple slot to his Macintosh design, which made the processor's bus accessible to peripherals, that wouldn't cost very much, especially if it wasn't used. He worked out the details and proposed it at the weekly staff meeting, but Steve immediately nixed his proposal, stating that there was no way that the Mac would even have a single slot.

      But Burrell was not that easily thwarted. He realized that the Mac was never going to have something called a slot, but perhaps the same functionality could be called something else. After talking it over with Brian, they decided to start calling it the "diagnostic port" instead of a slot, arguing that it would save money during manufacturing if testing devices could access the processor bus to diagnose manufacturing errors. They didn't mention that the same port would also provide the functionality of a slot.

      This was received positively at first, but after a couple weeks, engineering manager Rod Holt caught on to what was happening, probably aided by occasional giggles when the diagnostic port was mentioned. "That things really a slot, right? You're trying to sneak in a slot!", Rod finally accused us at the next engineering meeting. "Well, that's not going to happen!"

      --
      Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
    9. Re:Outrage! by TrekkieTechie · · Score: 3, Funny

      This seems like a fairly blatant attempt to enforce separation between the macbook and the pro. ... they need a differentiating factor. Firewire seems to have been chosen.

      Fools! I'll simply purchase a Firewire-to-USB adapter!

    10. Re:Outrage! by DrgnDancer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But as has been repeated pointed out, the MacBook is a consumer grade device. I know, I have one. The MBP, the Mac Pro, and the iMac still have firewire. Technically the Mac Mini does too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes away in the next rev. Firewire has proven to be a pro-spec. The main people that use it are audio and video pros or dedicated amateurs. It makes sense to offer it on the computers that pros will use and leave it off of the consumer grade stuff. When I bought my MacBook I was aware that I was buying lower end gear. Had I wanted MBP specs, I'd have spent the extra money.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    11. Re:Outrage! by CheeseTroll · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's very cool, but the Macbook doesn't have USB3, either.

      --
      A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
    12. Re:Outrage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just ask your gf next time YOU'RE done having sex :)

      You must be new here.

    13. Re:Outrage! by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Funny

      You forgot the rest of the equation. His portable drive is a lug-able RAID 0 array with two power supplies.

    14. Re:Outrage! by Ed+Avis · · Score: 3, Informative

      No problem, if Apple hasn't included Firewire then just buy your next Mac from any one of the wide range of competing hardware vendors... right... right?

      Using a Mac means you have to bend over for Steve Jobs. It's pointless complaining about it.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    15. Re:Outrage! by Ilgaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Steve Jobs and Apple engineers should go to some music studios, movie studios and see why those people demand 12" or 13" laptops.

      Let me give a clue to "cheap bastard buy a macbook pro 15" zealots and apologisers. The sound system they plug to firewire port of G4 is way more higher priced than your "pro" laptop.

      They actually use the portable at work, to produce something, not to show off at local cafe and the one thing you can't find in studios is SPACE. They are the first ones to move to LCD (sound guys) even while technology and refresh rates were awful.

  2. audio recording by guinsu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would love to know what Apple expects basement musicians to use to record multitrack audio. Firewire is way better suited to that and frankly after buying mics, instruments, amps, and mic preamps that group tends not to have an extra $1000 for a computer.

    1. Re:audio recording by Silicon+Jedi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They expect them to buy the cheaper computer that still has firewire.

    2. Re:audio recording by nlawalker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Something besides the MacBook that doesn't have the Firewire port?

  3. It's all what you put out by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Apple hadn't invested in so many non-mainstream technologies to start with then they wouldn't have had to kill so many - leaving those machines poor orphans in the process.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  4. Am I missing something... by Desert+Raven · · Score: 5, Informative

    Something missing here. The article claims to be "A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed" Yet, the article has nothing of the sort, and the linked page is a just an opinion piece on the lack of Firewire in the new MacBooks.

    I'm guessing this is the link that was intended.

    1. Re:Am I missing something... by Weedlekin · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Musicians like them for live recording because they're pretty small, have firewire, and a kernel with decent realtime performance."

      Musicians who want to record live can get some pretty sophisticated dedicated DAWs for significantly less than the cost of a MacBook plus decent DAW software. They're available from a variety of manufacturers (e.g. Boss / Roland, Edirol, Fostex, Korg, Tscam, Yamaha, Zoom) in many different sizes, configurations, and prices, ranging from cheap little 4 track items that easily fit into the palm of a hand and cost less than $150 right up to 32 track, 24-bit systems with XLR inputs for each channel, phantom powering, pull-up displays, and integral CD mastering hardware and software for around $1200.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
  5. Correct link by wumpus188 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why not link directly to the list instead of the pointless poll?

  6. HUNDREDS of angry users!!!! by mschuyler · · Score: 5, Informative

    says the article. That's right: 'Hundreds,' not 'tens of thousands.' Get it? The average consumer doesn't give a rip.

    --
    How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
  7. Firewire isn't "past its prime" by bonch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Firewire isn't past its prime. Apple wanted to further differentiate the consumer and pro versions of their laptops, and Steve Jobs' comment about recent consumer camcorders using USB is a reflection f that. Firewire is still used in the professional space for audio and other high-bandwidth data transfer situations where you don't want the CPU bogged down.

  8. firewire not past prime by fermion · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It is just not in the mainstream, so there is little reason to include it on a machine that is primarily made to meed a price point. Most people who want a computer for $1000 probably have similar price requirements for other devices, which means they are unlikely to pay a 20% premium on a lacie hard disk with firewire. This is not a case of a cheap technology like a floppy disk being removed because no one uses it. It is a matter or an expensive technology being removed because most people do not wish to pay for it. This was certainly the case with iPod. I was able to charge an ipod by plugging it into my external hard disk, which was nice. But the iPod being a consumer product, had to be sold for consumer product, and the average consumer is not willing to pay for the premium Apple hardware and service, so the iPod, and unfortunately the iPhone, uses the lame and inferior USB protocol.It is not a big deal, but I had to buy a USB hub.

    There is also a matter of not putting gratuitous features on the machine just to meet the buzz word compliance features. For example, many people complain that the Airport has no firewire port, and I am one of those because some of my kit is firewire only. But given the wireless transfer speeds, 54 Mbits/second, why put a 400 Mbit/sec on it. Sure, if one is using GHz ethernet, it would be nice a FW800 interface, but how many of us do this. And this is the case, perhaps an network aware hard drive is a better solution, which I see are not very expensive.

    What is true is that Apple does not waste resources support tech that no longer serves a broad purpose. This means that many of us have closets full of old tech. What this also means is that we don't have to worry about installing drivers every time we put in a USB drive, most cameras work with the standard picture protocol, and if we are willing to pay for the machine, we have external hardware that communicates at fast speeds, built in.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  9. Maybe Apple should kill the 1-button mouse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seriously ... it's time for it go!

    1. Re:Maybe Apple should kill the 1-button mouse by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's actually one of the more annoying things they did.

      After using real two-button mice for years, I have a habit of having a finger on each button. With the Mighty Mouse, ok, it's cool that it's a touch sensor, but it means I have to lift my left finger to make it a right button.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  10. Nothing better than Firewire by barfy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even USB was faster than parallel ports, and RS232, and DVI was better than RGB.

    But FireWire was better than SCSI, and nothing touches it yet. The reason that it is a problem that it was gone, is that there is a significant portion of the MacBook population that used FireWire. It will still be used by the higher end macs, but paying 800-1000 for a port is insane. So the choice is to keep using outdated macs, pay TOO much for a port, or go windows.

    This is not just an outdated, or soon to be outdated port. This is used, and it is replaced by nothing, and what remains is worse.

    This is just a bad idea.

  11. Cheap and 'good enough' beats expensive and better by Sarusa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry guys, I know FireWire is faster and cooler than USB 2 (no sarcasm there) and has neat features like the easy peer to peer connection, but USB won the market. Cheap and 'pretty good enough' beats out better and more expensive almost every time. Given that Apple has to put USB on any laptop (leaving that off would really be a disaster), adding FireWire as well just adds to their expense and complexity.

    We had this discussion, what, 5 years ago about SCSI? Yeah, IDE/SATA won that one too.

    You could argue that the Mac's growing market share itself argues against this, but to me that's just due to sufficient numbers of people thinking Vista isn't 'pretty good enough'. I know some of you love it dearly, but to most people FireWire just doesn't matter. Apple's eventually gonna ditch it, so they've started weaning you off it now.

  12. Re:dumb much? by FyreFiend · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just to pick a nit (I agree with everything else) but Apple didn't invent NuBus, though they were the only ones to actually use it. IIRC, it was invented by TI.

    --
    - Apple Computer......proudly going out of business for over twenty years.
  13. Re:I'm sure they have $50... by hellwig · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, except if you read the other thread you would know the MacBook will have neither CardBus nor ExpressCard slots, so you can't really add FireWire even if you wanted to. Apple isn't simply not including it, they are making it impossible to use on their new macbooks, which I believe is what's causing all the complaints.

    Not only that, but Apple created FireWire and tried to shove it down everyone's throats. Now they say you don't need it, that's just bullshit. Apple does what they want with hardware, and all the Mac fanbois just bend over and take it. If you don't need it, then no problem. If you do need it, you're S.O.L. unless you want the more expensive MacBook Pro.

    --
    Eggs
    Milk
    Bread
    Cat Litter
    Soda
    ...
  14. Re:Cheap and 'good enough' beats expensive and bet by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think you understand.
    A lot of us "outraged" at the omission of FW are mad because of the following reasons:

    -digital video (My sister was sold on the capability to import movies of her son and make DVDs and send them to our parents overseas. Big deal for home users interested in this.)
    -digital audio (I don't know anything about that, so I can't comment, it seems like a big deal.)
    -firewire target disk mode (huge deal for those of us supporting friends and family, even bigger for those of us who have to deploy tens of laptops at the same time. We use firewire drives to slap images on them. If you've never done this you probably don't understand the huge time saving.)
    -firewire devices (I've invested in a few FW hard drives because of their power through bus capability, portability and speed, now they're all useless for data storage, time machine, etc.)

    There are counter arguments too...
    - digital video, all the HD camcorders supposedly come with USB
    - digital audio.. whatever, I don't know
    -FW TDM .. use time machine, or netrestore, or go se a genius instead of friend-tech support
    -firewire devices... SOL

    I've successfully "switched" over a dozen friends and family to macs, knowing that in a pinch I could boot into FW TDM and recover their data, or that simply buying an inexpensive external FW disk they could have TimeMachine.
    But now, I will not suggest a MacBook for anyone that I may need to support. Especially not for work, where we have over 50 MacBooks deployed. Which is unfortunate, because it really is an excellent machine.

    --
    If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
  15. It's not about reading them one at a time. by ebh · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ahh, to be young...

    We old farts never forget the first time seeing a hardcore high-end card reader suck up a four-foot hopper full of cards in less than five seconds, with a noise like ten Shop-Vacs and one Cessna.

  16. RS-232 by ponraul · · Score: 3, Informative

    Macs never had RS-232. They had RS-422.

  17. One more thing you haven't seen: by reiisi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A Mac Mini used as a router, ethernet to the telco's dongle, Firewire to the local network.

    It's true that you may be able (with considerable effort and a few choice Japanese and Korean words of incantation) to do that with a USB port, but you can't do it with standard USB.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  18. And yet... by CODiNE · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Firewire allows DMA access to all of memory, it was joked that since Apple's come with firewire they're more insecure than PCs. Nobody would seriously recommend removing Firewire for this reason... and yet these laptops have better physical security than the ones before them. Imagine an encrypted HD with a password request on resume... it gets stolen at the coffee shop, the bad guy takes it home being careful to not allow the battery to die. They open the lid, plug into it's firewire and snag the HD keys.

    A laptop with sensitive information on it shouldn't have Firewire.

    It's just one of the positives of this announcement.

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz