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Doing the Math On the New MacBook
Technologizer writes "Apple's new MacBook is a significantly different machine than its predecessor — a slicker laptop at a higher price point. But does it carry a large price premium over similar Windows PCs? I did a painstaking spec-by-spec comparison versus three roughly comparably-configured Windows machines, and came to the conclusion that the value it offers for price paid is not out of whack with the Windows world." The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
I don't know who paid it, but someone did:
The challenge of the thumbscoop was to create a crisply machined scoop that was still comfortable to use. The designers at Apple worked on hundreds of versions of the thumbscoop -- even examining them under an electron microscope -- to get it right.
If anyone can read that last part without laughing...
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
Macs are design items. Some people don't mind paying a higher price for something which appeals to them.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. If you subjectively feel that the value of the product matches the price paid then an objective comparison is not significant.
.: Max Romantschuk
is the OS. You dont get mac os x on another machine!
Fingerprint Scanner
The Dell and Sony have one. ADVANTAGE: DELL AND SONY
It makes me laugh every time: Hmmmm a finger print reader......where would I be able to find fingerprints of someone who has used this laptop that I have just stolen? Sure hope they don't always use gloves when they type.....
I mean, where can you think of a more cool-but-useless feature? And it is sooo cool.......
Qxe4
1) MacBook (Beginning of 2006):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
2) MacBook (End of 2006):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
3) MacBook (Mid 2007):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
4) MacBook (End of 2007):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
5) MacBook (Beginning of 2008):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
And now - totally surprising:
5) MacBook (End of 2008):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
Who would have thought!
Yes, you are right, i don't cite all. But i can: "The differences between OS X and Windows are far more significant than any spec I discuss in this article. But I'm trying to focus mostly on speeds and feeds here - things that can be compared in an objective fashion. I cheerfully acknowledge that that's only part of the equation, but when people talk about Macs being pricey, they're comparing hardware, not software environments or user experiences." What is now different? That Author acknowledgement about this is only part equation, not whole system? Maybe some people only complain Mac price and think only about hardware, but i know lot people, who sees whole system and buy system, not only hardware. I think my point is still valid: even if you don't know, how to count "software environments or user experiences", this matters and people pay for this. You can get good hardware, but without software this is useless.
You will also get some brands of Windows laptop much cheaper by shopping around. In fact, Dell is one of the only companies who don't fall into this category.
Not to mention that the review picks Lenovo and Sony, two of the most expensive brands. Where is Asus, for instance?
Read Pynchon.
In TFA it is stated on page 3 that the MacBook costs 1299$ while the Lenovo is 1264.84$, the Sony is $1194.99 and the Dell is $819. Yet, in order to make the MacBook appear to be not so expensive in comparison, it states that they are all of comparable value and therefore, as you should ignore price differences in the scale of 100$, they all cost the same. I mean, WTF?
But that isn't all. There are a few more laptop manufacturers that, oddly enough, happen to be the world's leading laptop manufacturers (Acer, HP, Asus, etc) and also, oddly enough, offer similar laptops in the same price range of the Dell laptop. In fact, Sony and Lenovo are known as the inexplicably expensive laptop brands.
So, having said that, how exactly can anyone claim that the Apple laptops aren't expensive when you realize that their laptops are more expensive than the already expensive windows laptops? You can't.
P.S.: The current Apple laptops are also PCs. It doesn't make sense to claim that a Windows laptop is a PC while the Apple laptop is something else.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
How? This is not explained. Does "different class" mean "much cheaper?
Let me explain it for you then :)
I've said it once, and I'll say it again: The power brick of the macbook (any mac laptop i guess) alone is worth the price difference already. :)
Also add in the:
- magsafe power plug
- the new glass trackpad
- LED backlit screen
- OS X
- the new unibody design
- (to me) fantastic industrial design
Some of the other companies have 1 or 2 of the above points (like LED backlit? I'm not sure) and maybe some of the Sony designs are nice. But still not nicer than the macbooks (to me).
Anyways, I'm happy to pay the nominally extra charge for the above features. They just don't exist in any other laptops.
Will you people PLEASE stop comparing specs. It's useless I tell you. The price difference isn't in the specs, it's in other parts of the computer.
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
Is it more expensive than a high-end Windows machine? Not really.
Who buys those high-end Windows machines? Nobody with any sense.
Does Apple offer $500 laptops? Nope.
Ergo, Apple is expensive.
No sig today...
We're not talking about subjective value-feelings here; we're talking about intentional manipulation by a sleak advertising campaign that turns people into drones who really do believe that there is something magical in a Mac that other computers don't have.
Tell me, what is the marginal utility of that special Mac aura?
You've been had my friend.
No Firewire, so I'm not buying it....What are some good alternatives?
Macbook Pro. That was easy.
What do you really need Firewire for, if you are otherwise OK with a Macbook?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Making a 1 on 1 specs comparison between Mac and PC is unfair in my opinion.
Once yo install Vista and anti virus software, the PC is easily outperformed by a Mac with the same specs.
If instead you choose XP, you get the usual speed bumps, like when you disconnect the ethernet cable and the OS is attempting to use the connection. Not to mention the AV software which is still there.
Add a virus that you could get through a pendrive to the mix, and the performance difference grows more.
Don't want to sound like a Mac fanboi, but I've been using both for quite some time now, and I'm always surprised by how much the OS and software you run can influence your overall experience.
diegoT
The Thinkpad has pretty much always had the best keyboard in a laptop, ever since Toshiba quit putting full-sized keys in their Satellites. Apple's keyboards have never been great, but they peaked with the Extended II keyboard just before Jobs came back and since the iMac and blue-and-white G3 Apple's keyboards have been downright horrible, to the point where I have to use an external keyboard with my Macbook Pro to avoid physical pain.
And Apple's passive-aggressive refusal to just put two goddam buttons on their mice and trackpads is worth about a million points against them.
Advantage Lenovo.
Seriously, how many categories did he need? I guess he wanted ads.
The problem is, that for the target market it is horribly overpriced. This guy had to go out of his way to ignore all the similarly TARGETED machines that you can find in your Sunday circular for $500 to $800. Some of them even have discreet graphics at that price.
Better yet, everyone knows Dell is always on sale. You can find deals on any laptop maker other than Apple.
The real Mac tax is found when comparing targeted audience. In other words, the people who would love to have a laptop for light work. This the audience Apple misses completely by pricing themselves out of consideration.
I could probably find half a dozen laptops that would serve just as well, if not with more features, but they wouldn't look cool.
(fwiw I own an iMac, 2nd gen iPod, and 2nd gen Touch, and am awaiting the next gen iMac to come out)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Even if I could buy a PC at $300-$400 less than a MacBook, even with all the features (or a little more), I won't get what I really want: A computer with OSX, UNIX, and able to run anything on the planet. You can call that a tax if you like.
If I didn't have absolutely NOTHING to do, I wouldn't be here.
Has anyone checked the price of Apple machines seen over several years? Try to sell a cheap PC notebook after a few years and do the same with a MacBook. You will see that there may be a "Mac tax" but it also applies to used machines.
And I've seen many people being cheap with their notebooks and really regretting it very soon. Paying a bit more hurts only once but using a crappy notebook hurts every day.
I have. I looked into it at my university a while back. The 1099 Macbook went down to 999. Whoop de doo. Its specs still weren't up to the standard I can get for that money.
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FA867LL/A
I ask you--why is it that at a $1300 dollar price point, I can get a USED Macbook Pro with 1 gig of RAM, 128 megs of VRAM, and 120 gigs of HDD space, and then turn around and get a Dell Studio with the same screen size, three times the HDD space, three times the RAM, and double the VRAM, BRAND NEW for less?
All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.
Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...
So in summary: yes, there is a "Mac tax"
Only if you're enough a moron to buy additional RAM or HDD space from the OEM as opposed to an online or mail order retailer - as any Mac user over the last 30 years could tell you.
So people will think it's an extra good purchase right now and think they have to hurry up and buy now and feel happy with their purchase because they got "such a good price"? Quite obvious isn't it?
The question is why Apple don't offer anything on 7 month old laptops.
Apple don't discount because they don't have to. Seriously - check out eBay. People are selling G4 laptops for close on $1,000. With new line out now, that will drop I hope, but to answer your question - there's no reason to discount. Macs live for a long time and just keep working. I service my sister in laws Mac G4 and except for a memory upgrade, I've done nothing to it - and it runs OSX 10.4 like a champ. Say what you like, Apple have an excellent value proposition.
the coming surge of hard disk recorders is a raging joke. Most use a freaking strange format to record in. JVC uses the bizzare mpeg2/mpeg4 hybrid called TOD... WTF is that? sony is using a strange mpeg4 format as well.
All of these mean you get the files on your pc and then spend 12 hours converting them to a format that can be edited. yeah I saved a lot of time.... NOT.
plus the sustained transfer rate of usb2 cant even touch that of firewire 400 so it still wins.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
That Dell isn't the equivalent of the MacBook only in bizarro world. The specs are damn near the same. And it's $400 cheaper.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
are arbitrary and often proprietary notions regarding the engineering of a product. more often they are just poor excuses for design, built to lock consumers into your product at the expense of everyones time, energy, and sanity.
they can also be marketing gimmicks that infiltrated engineering via a useless first-line manager with no more product engineering insight than "it needs to be wireless."
this kind of "engineering" isnt new. microsoft has been engineering things to standards that dont exist for around a decade. the only difference is windows ME didnt come with some shitcock in a turtleneck banging the invincible OS drum and treating me like i was a six year old with nothing better to do with my time than swoon over magnetic power cords..
Good people go to bed earlier.
One trip over a cord with magsafe will be worth that.
One trip over a cord without magsafe? Cost: one new laptop.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
From Apple's Macbook mini-site:
All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.
Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...
There's at least two things they are referring to.
1) Snow Leopard will support OpenCL. You might say well so what, eventually my Dell will to, after all that's what Open means. True, but look at the architecture in the macs. They elimiated the Northbridge and the Bus chips. The CPU now connects directly to the GPU.
If you have ever tried to program an NVIDIA GPU for computational work you know that the slow step is shuttling the data back to the CPU. So having OpenCL with an insanley fast bus means that standard is going to actually be useful.
2) the Open HD video connector.
on the new macs, running H264 high def has dropped processor utilization from 100% to 20%, presumbaly because of the NVIDIA chip. So now streaming HD is going to be a reality and will actually exist for the mac world. And TVs that support the Open HD are becoming available.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
He didn't even count the magsafe connection for the power adaptor, so my count would put it at 14. So, instead of just called them the same specs, how about you actually point out why this guy spec comparison is wrong? But no, unsubstantiated assertions are insightful as long as you're bashing Apple, Microsoft or Google here at slashdot.
And you know something? I've used/administered several Dells -- they're $400 cheaper for a reason, it's called QA/QC and Dells lack it in my experience. Average lifetime of a Dell 3-5 years maybe with better luck on the monitors. Average lifetime of my Apple machines: 5-6 years. This is counting all warrantied replacement parts as included in the lifetime.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
I did RTFA. Without RTFA'ing, I would have had no way of knowing that the assertion that the Dell isn't equivalent is bullshit. The Mac has a slightly better processor, the Dell has 50% more RAM (slight benefit to each side). The Dell has more hard drive space. In all the specs that ACTUALLY MATTER (no, looks and power connector and other such bullshit don't matter... just stuff that makes the compy run better), the Dell is equivalent.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
As usual the article and the commentaries ask and answer completely the wrong question.
The interesting question is NOT whether, if you take a Mac spec as your starting point, you can duplicate it for less elsewhere from another vendor. The answer is usually, no, not very much, and sometimes it costs more. Which tells us just about nothing about suitability of product or value for money.
The interesting question is whether, if you are looking for a computer, you can find a better value choice better suited to your needs from the Mac range or from other vendors ranges.
You almost always can. The reason is, the paucity of price points and specification points in the Mac range. This results in Macs being an overpriced or underfeatured choice for most people most of the time.
This leads to a simple conclusion. For most people, most of the time, the Mac product is going to be overpriced. For most people, the other vendor product is going to offer better value. Which is quite compatible with the proposition that for any given point in the Mac range, its hard or impossible to duplicate it for much less. This was however never the issue.
The Mac range is not the starting point for comparisons, any more than the Louis Vuitton range is. How one wishes people would stop pretending that it is.
Indeed you notice the performance hit under Windows after some time. In regards to OS X, what I really do like is it's responsiveness. Even if it sometimes isn't exactly the fastest thing on earth, with the latest version of it I always feel it very responsive and quick to acknoledge my actions.
I recently switched my gf to Mac, she is a designer. The reason for the switch was that every time Windows slowed down for her (an average user) she couldn't install it back on her own. She was really afraid of using Macs, but fortunately, she found it easy to learn the basic concepts, and is now using it full time. I am really glad I won't need to be installing Windows again in 6 months :D
In any case, I do realize that OS X isn't perfect. It may not be the most secure sistem either. But I believe that there's no discussion that it requires less maintenance for the average user today. Today is all that matters today. If things change, I'll see other options.
diegoT
Dang, have to post anon cause I've been moderating here. (Not just pro-mac anti-ms mind you..;P.. )
Ok, always assume you are as stupid/as smart as the general masses. There has to be a reason for the "stupid behaviour" you witnessed. Let's see if you can justify the same stupid desission.
What was the main difference between the old and new macs? The architecture. How did the MacOS handle INtel/PPC compatibility? Through the Rosetta Stone technology which translated instructions PPC <--> Intel. Were the PRO APPS (tm), like CS2 suite, translated/optimized for Intel? No. Did this RS translation give a performance hit? Yes. Then what hardware was best suited for performance and efficiency for the PRO USERS (tm)? __ <- fill in blank. Profit!
And the oblig URL: http://photoshopnews.com/2006/01/20/editorial-should-the-macbook-pro-have-waited-for-photoshop/
I was always convinced of the Mac tax on their laptops.
Then I owned one. I didn't want it at first. I didn't lust after it.
Now I am convinced that there is no Mac tax. I happen to know that I'm immune to the idea that I'm a fanboi suffering from post-purchase justification. I just know that once you own one, if you had the Mac tax issue, you lose it. Quickly. Completely. Forever.
Then your next laptop will be a Mac. And you'll recommend them. And you'll probably try to explain something in a post that might not be easily explained.
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.