World First Review of Dell's 12.1in Netbook

An anonymous reader points to what's claimed to be "the world's first look at Dell's 12.1" netbook," running at Australian Personal Computer Magazine. There's a bit of gushing at the beginning, but this is followed by some informative pictures, informal battery-life tests, and interesting background about the machine's components. Upshot: it's a well-made, decent-performing small laptop with a better keyboard than smaller netbooks and more wireless options than most. However, it's shorter on battery life (bigger screen, smaller battery) than Dell's smaller Mini 9, and less easily upgraded.

Comments

pricey

[Entropy98]

At $1000 I'm not sure who this is targeted at.
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Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple customers.

Re:pricey

[speeDDemon (nw)]

Whilst I understand its a limitation of the chipset, 1Gb of RAM and Vista.... ewww. Internal 3G card is a nice touch though.

re: pricey

[mcfar45]

I think it's targeted at those who don't want to buy a netbook because of their size but don't want to pay for a full sized laptop.

Re:pricey

[ChunderDownunder]

Indeed.

I'm happy enough with my 12" HP 2230s, though it doesn't come with a cheap webcam built in. It's fatter and heavier because it includes a DVDRW drive. But for around the same price as this Dell (it's an HP; flame away), mine came with 3GB of RAM (expandable to 8GB allegedly), pre-installed with XP (Vista upgrade disks included), with a Core 2 Duo and an HDMI port.

I'd prefer better performance over a slightly thinner and lighter notebook.

Re:pricey

[nmg196]

I think I read somewhere it will be 599 USD, so I think that's pretty cheap actually. What actually are you comparing it to which is significantly cheaper?

Re:pricey

[TheRaven64]

And at 12.1" I'm not sure it qualifies as a NetBook. This is the same size as the old iBooks and only slightly smaller than a MacBook. They're fairly small laptops, but I'd expect a NetBook to be a lot more portable.

Re:pricey

[somersault]

The chipset can only run Vista? Egads! What unholy portent is this? I cast thee OUT!

*throws netbook into the dark Abyss of Tortured Souls and Recycled Cardboard*

Re:pricey

[cayenne8]

" The chipset can only run Vista? Egads! What unholy portent is this? I cast thee OUT!

*throws netbook into the dark Abyss of Tortured Souls and Recycled Cardboard*

LOL...that's pretty good.

But it made me think...who is going to be buying any of these things? I know I'm a bit behind trends here of late, but, I'd not heard the term 'netbook' till a couple weeks or so ago. Why are they coming out with laptops with such small screens, and underpowered CPU-wise? It seems they are going backwards in terms of performance and viewing capability?

I'll grant you that these are nice and thin and lighter, but, seriously, it looks like we're regressing back to the days of early laptops that were light on processing power, and screens so small you needed a magnifying glass to use them.

Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

The 7" screens are popular because they are mass-produced for portable DVD players, which makes them cheap.

The ideal of the Eee-PC as I saw it was that it was conveniently small, had a solid-state disk and - most importantly - was cheap enough that it was almost disposable. Asus don't seem to have understood that themselves though.

I've always seen these things as being a super-PDA, not a desktop-replacement. IMHO, Dell tried to jump on the bandwagon without really understanding it.

Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow I doubt that, it's an x86 proc, and TFA specifically mentions Ubuntu and XP. Either way, it does SSE3, which means it will run OSX just fine.

Re:pricey

[Corporate Troll]

Why are they coming out with laptops with such small screens, and underpowered CPU-wise?

The answer is simple: people who value size and price more than performance. I don't want to fall in a 640K is enough for anybody stance here, but be honest with yourself: how often do you use the full power of your machine when not gaming or photo-editing (for which these machines are woefully inadequate)? My work laptop, is currently using 1% to 5% of it's power and it's over two years old (the time I've been working at this company, and I'm not sure if it was new). That's it.... At home, my wifes desktop is much older (bought autum 2003) and it rarely uses up more than 10% for our typical usage. I consider our usage to be rather typical.

So, even 5 year old machines don't get to see much load. So, you're on the move want to surf a bit and read your email? Well, you don't need a Dual-Core Multi-Gigahertz machine for that anymore. So why spend more? So, that's for the performance part.

Now the size part: typical laptops are 15.4" or larger. I don't know about you, but that's pretty huge and not exactly something a woman would put in her purse. Indeed, there are machines that were small, but they were also very expensive...

Which brings us to price. The small portable machines from a few years ago were extremely expensive and also didn't have the oompha that their larger cousins have. I wouldn't ever spend 2500€ to have a small and slightly underpowered laptop. However, I have no qualms paying 300€ for a small-very-underpowered-but-adequate laptop.

As a matter of fact, up until January 2007, my primary laptop was an old P-III 600MHz/512Meg RAM dual-booting XP and Linux... It ran absolutely fine for my light usage. Compare that to the underclocked Celeron 630MHz in the original Asus EEE PC... Well, the only differences? The Asus is much smaller and lighter: I do lack a bit screen estate. The Asus EEE 900, however has a 1024x600 screen, which is pretty close to what my old P-III laptop had, being 1024x768.

Re:pricey

[dugjohnson]

Real NETBOOKS (not this thing, too big and expensive) are useful for RIAs (Rich Internet Apps) that don't need a lot of screen real estate.  IF they have a lot of battery and IF they are small enough and IF they are cheap enough, you can put these netbooks into the hands of floor workers (retail, medical office) and have all of the access you need.  Most WIFI phones/PDAs are too small for real floor usage.

Re:pricey

[theaveng]

When I needed a "netbook" for my frequent hotel travels, I just bought a used 15 inch laptop off Ebay. It's about three years old, has 1/2 gig of memory, XP desktop, and only cost me $110. Certainly a lot cheaper than this $1000 Dell Netbook thing.

It has the added benefit of being able to play movies off the C: drive, in case there's nothing on the TV worth watching.

Re:pricey

[nawcom]

And at 12.1" I'm not sure it qualifies as a NetBook. This is the same size as the old iBooks and only slightly smaller than a MacBook. They're fairly small laptops, but I'd expect a NetBook to be a lot more portable.

I wonder if my 12.1" Dell Latitude D420 is a netbook as well. I has a 1.8" hard drive just live the Mini 12. It has the extra mini pci-e slot for 3G (it even refers to it as the slot for the 3G device in Dell's shitty BIOS). Really - other than the atom processor and the GMA500 (D420 has the 64 bit restricted intel core 1 duo and a shitty GMA950) its the same... wait... Oh yeah - I don't run Vista on it.

But theres a significant drawback to Poulsbo, and its one that will certainly cruel the Inspiron Mini 12s appeal to many "power users". The chipset supports a maximum 1GB of RAM.
Wait, this is supposed to run Vista right? heh. Running Linux and Mac OS X on my Latitude D420 (that hasa 2.5 gigs of memory) does enough for me.

Re:pricey

[Corporate Troll]

I understand.... The P-III I talked about cost me 100€ back in the day. However, I cannot call it a netbook. Size is intrinsic to the "netbook" status. Anything beyond 12" (arguably 10", because I used to own a 12" iBook and I can hardly call it small).

You do have to realise that my Asus EEE PC is half the size of a typical 15.4" laptop. You don't take a 15.4" laptop in your purse, I do take the Asus EEE PC in my "manpouch" (I have to admit to my greatest shame that I have one)

So, yes, a second hand laptop will give you more oompha for less money, but not the kind of portability you get with a real netbook.

That said, 1000$ is insane for a netbook even though I'm pretty sure they're talking AUD, which mitigates the 1000$ price.

Re:pricey

[hattig]

And how heavy is that 15" laptop? There are very few lightweight 15" laptops, they're all heavy, bulky, awkward to carry.

This $600 (not $1000) 12" laptop is also too large, but at least it is light at under 3lbs. I don't think it is at the "throw it in the bag and forget about it" level though.

The 8.9" netbooks are where the portability is. 2lbs. Tiny. Sling it in the bag everyday and forget about it, instead of having to make a conscious decision about whether to take it or not.

Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

1Gb of RAM and Vista

Running Vista on 128MB RAM? That doesn't compute...

Re:pricey

[blackest_k]

well this is being posted from a netbook.

Screen size is 9 inch with 1024 by 600 resolution. This is quite a comfortable size and is sharper than my old hp 15inch with 1024x768 resolution. Smaller Screen with Smaller pixels. Admittedly the netbooks with smaller screens are a bit too cramped with 800x480.

Keyboard size on 9inch versions seems adequate I can type at a reasonable rate without hitting the wrong keys.

Processing power is good enough in ubuntu and Linux in general. 2000 in a Vm isn't super fast but its quite usable.

in short its probably roughly equivalent to my old HP, The Atom processor isn't quite as fast but its good enough. Really thats the key too the whole thing. It is good enough.

Now what makes it better than my old HP is the size its small enough to fit in a glovebox or for the ladies a handbag. power wise it uses about 22,23 watts and even with the stingy battery Acer supplied a comfortable 2 hours can be had. Better batteries can increase that to 5 or 7 hours.

Storage ranges from 4Gb to 120Gb depending on model and extra space is easily added with Sd cards and usb sticks. When you consider that a show such as hero's can be just 300 Meg for an episode a 2Gb Sd card will keep you entertained for hours, if you want to work on a document you could do that too. Wifi and wired connections are built in, some have 3G adapters or you can use a usb hspda dongle or a cell phone as a modem (i use a 10mm usb bluetooth adapter to get net access most places it costs me £5 a month or 50p a day if i feel a need for it).

It's the portability and price that really makes a netbook and i really wonder if by buying a 12inch dell it really isn't too big and pricey. Your starting to get into regular laptop territory and they are just too big, toting a full size laptop soon becomes a chore.

Well you might say well get a pda then, however they have extremely small screens and pretty terrible keyboards if they have them at all picking away with a stylus is a terrible way to type and handwriting recognition far too hit and miss. If you have a net enabled mobile, you probably find that web pages are hard to navigate and interact with. Yet the same mobile when used as a modem suddenly becomes useful for more than just phone calls (or in the case of the pda sat nav).

Storage is easily added when needed, yes you can burn a DVD with a usb connected drive. (mines recycled + an external case) and if I need a bigger screen keyboard or mouse I can plug them in. Off course once I am in contact with my home Lan everything is accessible. I generally print using my samsung lazer printer.

When I'm out and about i have an inverter which allows me to charge my netbook when it needs it. I can park up and still sit behind the wheel and work or pop it on the dashboard and watch a film. My Car stereo has an aux jack but in cars without a small fm transmitter or even a cassette adapter will work as well.

I could choose to read an ebook too.

So its replacing a few devices I might have bought, a full size laptop just can't be used so easily. Airports are good places to have a netbook too, even a kitchen worktop or a coffee table. Students love em, they replace full size laptops and are easily transported from class to class.

They could be better, touch screens, webcams that can face away from the keyboard. screens that can lay flat and usable, would it be useful to record a lecture whilst taking notes maybe. maybe use it as a sketch pad capture an image with the webcam and annotate it perhaps.

So yes there are plenty of uses for a netbook it certainly calls into question the need for any other pc and a dedicated area of the home.

Re:pricey

[cerberusss]

the size its small enough to fit in a glovebox or for the ladies a handbag.

I'm a metrosexual, you insensitive clod!

Re:pricey

[theaveng]

I see. Well I would be hard-pressed to find a 10 inch or smaller "laptop" on Ebay. I guess netbook truly is a new kind of form factor.

Re:pricey

[Corporate Troll]

Well, I used to own a Toshiba Satellite 210CT. That one had a whopping 11" TFT screen featuring 800x600, I kid you not. I guess one can find that on eBay. ;-) Of course weight would kill the "netbook" status here, I think. The Libretto would be pretty cool.

I also had (still have) a Atari Portfolio, but that's from a really long time ago.

Re:pricey

[Nicolay77]

if you want to work on a document you could do that too.

Seriously, mod this funny.

Re:pricey

[maxume]

I'd rather have something like an iPod Touch as my throw it in the bag every day computer. I have no desire to pay for an iPod though, given that I don't need it for anything and flash prices are still plummeting (for me, ~100 GB is the stop worrying about capacity point, and they aren't there yet).

I do see room (again, for me, I'm not sure about generally) for such devices being separate from cell phones. I'd rather have a smaller, cheaper phone with its own battery, and then a second device for fiddling.

Another contender in the same space is all the portable navigation devices; once they hit huge memory and wifi access, there really isn't any difference.

Re:pricey

[rbanffy]

It's too ugly to compete in this segment

Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know about ebay, but I found a 10" unit on craigslist. Check the M-M NSA section.

Re:pricey

[Xanius]

A tablet would be better for that but I don't think there's any tablets that cheap at this point. I do have a couple of really old prototype tablets with the serial number written in sharpie on masking tape though, and they're neat to play with.

Re:pricey

[smithmc]

Well, here's one , but only one...

Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes There is somewhat of an issue for men and netbooks, too big to stick in a pocket too small for the traditional laptop bag. carried in the hand like some Evangelical preachers bible is also not a look to go for.

Nothing else for it but to go for a man bag. After a long search for something appropriate and trying to avoid the Mac look (skinny, black polo neck ect a samsonite messenger bag would have been appropriate otherwise).

I finished up with something by quick silver, The design looks to be full of useful pockets for stashing useful bits. However when a young female friend tried it on and approved and wanted one for herself (yes she could make sacks look good) I am left wondering will people be left wondering.

Are the girls going to include me in their chats and the guys talk loudly about football and beer trying to dissociate their masculinity from their middle aged friend who has come out with his man bag.

yes dears this is going to take some getting used too.

Re:pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you're on the move want to surf a bit and read your email? Well, you don't need a Dual-Core Multi-Gigahertz machine for that anymore.

No, you need an ipod touch. Much better for this situation, and fits into a purse easier.

Not as flexible as a netbook, but most people only want to do what you suggest, email, net access. And cheaper than a netbook too!

World's first review?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'm not alone when I ask "who really gives a shit?". This is a computer geek's equivalent of "f1rst post!" in a hardware review.

Re:World's first review?

[Anonymous Coward]

*sound of crickets chirping*

Captain Obvious to the rescue!

[Big Nothing]

Ultra-slim and lightweight - not even room for two speakers. Is there really a need to state that it isn't "upgrade-friendly"?

Also, even though it's a sleek, lightweight laptop it certainly is not a high-end product (1,6 GHz Atom Z530, max 1 GB RAM and 60 GB HDD). So who's gonna pay the $1000 Dell want?

Re:Captain Obvious to the rescue!

[compro01]

I question too. $1000 (CDN) bought me my current laptop (an HP tx2512) in August, which has a 1.9ghz AMD X2 processor, 3GB ram, 250GB hard drive, half decent video (ATI 3200HD), same 12.1" screen size (same 1280x800 resolution too), and is a convertible tablet. About the only thing the Dell does better is that it is thinner, a little lighter (mine is only 2 and some pounds), and has a built-in 3G modem, though I can stick one of those in my expresscard slot (which the Dell lacks) if I had need.

Re:Captain Obvious to the rescue!

[NoobixCube]

My thoughts, exactly. It's not a high-end product, and I see little to distinguish it from competitors almost half the price. The only interesting thing about it is the 3G modem; not that that means much to anyone in Australia. If you want to watch a few videos on Youtube with a 3G modem here, be prepared to mortgage your house.

Re:Captain Obvious to the rescue!

[jabithew]

AU$1000=US$620=CN$788=GBP391=EUR492

Re:Captain Obvious to the rescue!

[speeDDemon (nw)]

Whilst Australia's Telstra 3G network is not cheap, it has gotten cheaper just recently (for those not up to date).

You are now looking at

$30 per month for 200mb
$60 per month for 1Gb
$90 per month for 3gb
$130 per month for 10Gb

and for the record, yes I am a Telstra dealer.

Australians

[Kaseijin]

At $1000 I'm not sure who this is targeted at.

1000 AUD is about 600 USD, which seems in line with the competition.

Re:Australians

[ChunderDownunder]

In all fairness, the RRP costing might have been done before the recent dramatic devaluation of the $AU - A couple of months back it was around $US.95 - The Australian price could actually go UP in coming months to cushion Dell Australia's profits.

But anyway, as I noted in another reply, I purchased an HP 'notebook' for a similar Australian price about a month ago. I mightn't be Dell's target user but, at the same price, I would still prefer to buy the 12" HP.

Re:Australians

[houghi]

So it was calculated in Metric dollars?

Working mobile

[Bender_]

I think it is quite useful of you want to work while travelling in an airplane on a train. The 9" netbooks are not really good for anything that involves a lot of typing.

A bought a DELL latitude x200 off ebay a couple of years ago for exactly that reason and I have never regretted it. Back then this was still a business notebook and costed $3000+ (I paid $250, years later). The $999 price point is not too bad.

The main drawback seems to be the battery. But did you know they had outlets in many european trains?

price = FAIL

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when i can buy a $200 max net book and actualy be able to phy$icaly walk into a local computer shop or even Target and buy one here in the United States

Price, Size / Weight and Battery Life,

[Rog7]

I'm not sure when the reviewers and manufacturers will get the popularity of netbooks. There are a minimum set of features (which almost all of them have) but after that there are only three important points: price, size / weight and battery life.

The review sites seem to spend so much time worrying about the bells and whistles that they're accustomed to with bigger laptops, but these come at a compromise of the most important aspects.

Re:Price, Size / Weight and Battery Life,

[Sancho]

What's wrong with that is that they're marketing based upon the new netbook moniker without providing a netbook. It's just the same as if they came out with an 12" notebook with 512MB RAM and a 1.6Ghz Atom processor, and marketed it as a desktop replacement.

Technically, there's no specification for either of these two terms, so they can call it whatever they want. But they're going against de facto terminology within the industry.

Re:Price, Size / Weight and Battery Life,

[Glonoinha]

In your honest opinion - how's it fare as a sub $600 12" laptop that's 1" thick and about 1 kilo in weight?

Someone else said it better than I : Netbooks are brand new used laptops.
This is basically priced about the same as a nice high-end used 12" ultra-light laptop, but is new in the box.

I paid $400 for a nice used Dell e1505 about a year ago, paid another $100 to upgrade the memory to 2G - current specs are 1.66GHz Core2Duo, 120G drive, 2G of RAM, Wifi, and a 15.4" 1280x800 screen. Battery lasts about 3 hours and it weighs about 5 or 6 lbs. Too big to carry under my jacket but it does have a CD-RW/DVD and a good sound system (well, good enough to watch DVDs on in a hotel.) Would this machine be a better buy, given a year warranty - it would be close. At $500 (exactly what I paid for my used one) it would be a no-brainer.

Re:Price, Size / Weight and Battery Life,

[Sancho]

I don't have a problem with the product specs themselves. For the price, they're fine. I have a problem with Dell absconding with the term in order to cash in on a hot item now. Then again, I think that size is probably the single most important aspect of the netbook. Because up until now, everyone's associated netbooks with the original EeePC and its clones, and this is a pretty big departure in the size department.

Dell Fails again

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason to purchase a small notebook is portability. what good is it if it has worse battery life than the big 17" laptops.

Re:Dell Fails again

[Anonymous Coward]

um, everything has worse battery life than Dell's current line of 17" laptops.
10-19hr battery... just doesn't fit in a netbook.

This is going the wrong way

[Anonymous Coward]

This almost seems like it is a full blown laptop again. The EEE had me hopefull we would see really affordable laptops. But then it was a big hit. Prices went up specs went up. What do we have now. Normal laptops only they are called mini.

Re:This is going the wrong way

[Daniel Phillips]

The EEE had me hopefull we would see really affordable laptops. But then it was a big hit. Prices went up specs went up.

The eee 1000 with 40 GB SSD is less than $500 now. I call that a real bargain. I'm just waiting a respectable interval before I pick one up to round out my eee collection, currently consisting of a 9" model. I justify this by being able to hack more comfortably on the road. Admittedly I'm stretching but the only reason I contemplate this extravagance is the low price. Two of them and barely half the price of the Thinkpad I just got rid of. Admittedly the Thinkpad is much more powerful, but in my experience, not a lot more useful, and I certainly would not carry it around in the flap of my camera bag like I do the eee.

Re:This is going the wrong way

[blackest_k]

The EEE 701 has fallen from £249 to £160 in six months the Acer AspireOne which is better in most respects is £170

This Dell isn't competing with Netbooks its a small laptop which a year ago we passed over for 15 and 17 inch competitors. Once your toting a full size laptop around you may as well go for something big fast.

Re:This is going the wrong way

[Joce640k]

To be fair, the 7" screens were too small. They're ok in theory but hardly any apps will work well at 800 pixels.

To me the sweet spot seems to be 9" Eee PC with 20Gb drive. A little bit bigger drive would be nice but I can live without it.

Hard to get a sense of scale

[trawg]

Just me or is it hard to get a sense of scale in those photos when there's barely any other objects in there? There's a pen, half a hand, and another laptop that I don't know how big it is.

I always struggle with photos like this because it's obviously difficult to find a reference object /everyone/ is familiar with, but even a few little things might've been helpful in some of the photos.

Re:Hard to get a sense of scale

[fr4nk]

Agreed, they should have pictured the laptops next to a Volkswagen.

Re:Hard to get a sense of scale

[Docasman]

Or the Library of Congress.

Re:Hard to get a sense of scale

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I always struggle with photos like this because it's obviously difficult to find a reference object /everyone/ is familiar with

How about a ruler?

Re:Hard to get a sense of scale

[cerberusss]

it's obviously difficult to find a reference object /everyone/ is familiar with

Well, considering even my 3 months old nephew can recognize a women's breast, I was very surprised to see they used a plain Bic pen in the picture.

Re:Hard to get a sense of scale

[Rennt]

My favorite item for this kind of scale size comparison is a drink can. Everyone (at least everyone buying netbooks) knows exactly how big one is. I've got half a dozen bourbon and coke empties sitting between my keyboard and monitor right now :)

Re:Hard to get a sense of scale

[krenshala]

Or the Empire State Building

Not the first review!

[Anonymous Coward]

This review, from 2007, is of a Dell XPS M1210 laptop (12.1 in screen), which I've owned for over a year.

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/29878/review/xps_m1210.html

Re:Working mobile

[Anonymous Coward]

A dell x200 is my main living room laptop. It is trusty, parts are cheap for it, and while its currently a franken laptop it hums along still.

My wife abused it through law school and now save endless games of solitaire and the occasional relevant lookup its relegated to "Who is that actor?" and then a quick IMDB search.

The x200 is a great machine.

x200

[AVryhof]

The mini 12 reminds me of an updated version of the x200 I bought off eBay for $200 ( http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/notebooks/0,1000000333,10000587,00.htm )

Granted the x200 is a little bigger, and not 3G ready... but out of the box it's pretty good. I got the 933 version and upgraded it to 640Mb of memory and Win2k. It runs snappy, Firefox and Thunderbird run good, and if I want the extra features, I just snap it into the dock with the DVD/CDR, floppy drive and more.

So if you want a pretty good alternative to buying the Mini 12 that's pretty inexpensive, check out the x200.

They used to call them laptops

[fph il quozientatore]

Wow, a netbook with a large screen! If the trend keeps on going this way, next year we'll see an innovative netbook with a 15.4 screen! First in the world!

Re:They used to call them laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

"Innovation" is about finding new ways to sell old shit. Welcome to 21st century corporate culture.

Re:They used to call them laptops

[quarterbuck]

Dell has that market covered

Re:They used to call them laptops

[krenshala]

Good Gods, but the M2010 is heavy ...

Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[NoNeeeed]

The "netbook" market has moved so fast over the last year, I'm glad I didn't stump up for an early Eee PC. This looks like it may hit my sweet spot of price/performance/size.

I'm at least a year from buying a new laptop and I can't see me replacing my current MacBook with another mac. As much as I like MacOS, I can't justify the cost of a full spec laptop. Currently, little of what I do stretches my MacBook's performance, no games, no video editing. A cheap, portable and rugged netbook running linux is just up my street. Another MacBook would be a nice to have, but at a price-tag that I just cant justify.

I think this is something some manufacturers are missing, fewer and fewer people are pushing the limits of their existing hardware. There just doesn't seem to be the pressure from software as there used to be. I know there are applications that need more power than a cheap latop can deliver (games, high-end graphics work, video editing), but this is becoming an increasingly small segment of the whole market.

Paul

Re:Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[borizz]

If you don't use the Mac's performance, then why get a new laptop? You can save even more money that way.

Re:Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not the proper way! You MUST finance the newest model on credit as soon as the talking heads certify that it is the next big thing. Any other course of action will leave you with a disgusting surplus of available funds and possibly prepared for the future.

Re:Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[NoNeeeed]

Err, that's exactly what I said in my post. Netbooks are considerably cheaper than a replacement MacBook.

I'm not using the full power of the mac, so will not be getting a full laptop next-time round. I would however like a smaller, more rugged, and more portable laptop for carrying around.

Paul

Re:Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[pimpimpim]

I'm glad as hell I stumped for the early EEE PC. It's a real netbook, not a laptop with a smaller screen. Only SSD, no HD. Small, lightweight, sleek OS with clear big buttons, good battery life. Netbooks with SSD and without Vista are among the minority already.

My next one would have to be a 9 or 10 inch, with touchscreen, SSD, and > 6 hour battery life, preferably linux. If the dual core Atom is efficient enough, that would be nice. However, the way things are going, I wonder if it will ever come.

Re:Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[borizz]

I misread what you said. It makes sense now. Sorry. :)

Re:Glad I didn't buy a first gen Netbook

[GarrettK18]

Yes, I'm also glad I didn't buy an EEE 701. I bought an EEE 901 (the Windows version, because screen reading software is so much better), and couldn't be happier. People complainingabout the keyboards on 8.9" netbooks should try typing on a Braille N Speak. The "original" version was worse ... trust me, ergonomic braille keyboards make sense.

Anyway, I have both my EEE 901 and a BrailleNote, and the EEe delivers so much more (x86 compatibility, faster wireless, ETC) than the BrailleNote for a similar size. The refreshable braille display on the BN is its only advantage for me.

Vista rating of 1.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just FYI, the article says that the system has a rating of 1.0 in the Windows Experience Index, but if you look closely at the screenshot it actually says that the system is unrated, and Vista just shows 1.0 by default if it hasn't been rated.

Re:Vista rating of 1.0?

[hattig]

Yeah, I saw that too, and wondered why they hadn't rated it. They also declined to give actual measurements for the device apart from thickness (24mm down to 21mm).

I strongly suspect my three year old 12" iBook is roughly the same size (maybe a little thicker). Sure, it's heavier, but it's vastly more powerful and expandable (and its battery life is 5 hours).

This 12" netbook uses Intel's new Atom chipset, Paulsbo. In order to conserve power, Intel used a leading-edge 130nm process. Yes, you read that right - not 45nm, not 65nm, not even 90nm. But 130nm.

This chipset is meant for MIDs - portable devices with small screens - not near-full-size laptops. The integrated graphics are top-end mobile-phone standard - great for MIDs, but they not even as fast as Intel's integrated graphics. It only supports a maximum of 1GB.

Considering Apple fitted in a CPU, discrete graphics, chipset, accessible RAM slots, optical drive, etc, into the iBook three years ago, I don't see how Dell had so much difficulty fitting a small CPU, chipset, some RAM mounted on the motherboard, etc, into a similarly sized case.

with the monetary crisis...

[nx6310]

Less people will be working, leading less over all income and thus less business purposed traveling, leading to the $1000 price tag being just well, silly.

Grow up and get a real Notebook.

Eee PC manages two speakers

[Joce640k]

And pretty decent sound, too.

AN Eee PC has the aame RAM, same CPU, can take a hard disk...which part of "no room" am I failing to comprehend?

Netbook

[YourExperiment]

In what way could this be described as a netbook? Surely the defining feature of a netbook is its diminutive size. One could possibly argue that a low price factors into the equation too. This laptop seems to have neither.

The 10" Eee PC has a pretty decent keyboard

[Joce640k]

The only outstanding feature is the 1280x800 graphics (which is worth having, don't get me wrong...)

It basically fills in the gap between mini/maxi and more choice = good.

One thing it really does is pull the rug out from under those vastly overpriced $2500 SONY mini-laptops. The only reason to buy those was small size, and that reason just vanished.

Bummer it comes with Vista and not XP.

Keyboard layouts

[Mental Maelstrom]

Whats up with the obscure keyboards lately (those Dell laptops being an example)? Recently I find it difficult to find a laptop or keyboard with the keys placed on it the way i've used to. Often keys like the ones for <|> or underscore (estonian layout) might be absent or misplaced in some weird location (e.g. on top of or right of the return key). I once even had to buy a new keyboard, because my shell uses <, | and > for redirection.

Can anybody shed some light on this issue? Thanks.

Does not compare well with the Asus S101

[blind biker]

The S101 is much lighter, thinner, cheaper ($899) and has a longer battery life.

There is not one single characteristic where the Mini would beat the S101.

Disclaimer: I own both Asus and Dell notebooks, and am very satisfied with both.

Re:Does not compare well with the Asus S101

[Briareos]

The S101 is [...] cheaper ($899)[...]

Not if you take into account that TFA was posted on an Australian site (though they were quite good at hiding that fact) and the current USD/AUD exchange rate...

Re:Does not compare well with the Asus S101

[blind biker]

Thanks - point taken. I did not know it was an oz site. Adjusted for exchange rates though, the S101 seems the more compelling device still, though it did lose some luster after your correction.

Re:Does not compare well with the Asus S101

[rbanffy]

Well... I prefer the Acer Aspire One. And, before we enter a religious war, I prefer it because I find it slightly prettier than the Eee.

Vista & MS Works

[Anonymous Coward]

You have a worst way to spend money?.

The cost of being "chic"

[geekmux]

At $1000 I'm not sure who this is targeted at.

1000 AUD is about 600 USD, which seems in line with the competition.

Yes, but the competition has a larger HD, 15"+ screen, more RAM, and a BluRay player w/ HDMI out for around the same price. Hardly in line with the "average" netbook price.

Just depends on how stylish and chic you think you need to be. Kills me that we actually think that 2 pounds and 1 more hour of battery life is going to physically break the average student or mobile exec. You're walking short distances around a campus or airport, not hiking K2.

Re:The cost of being "chic"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the competition has a larger HD, 15"+ screen, more RAM, and a BluRay player w/ HDMI out for around the same price. Hardly in line with the "average" netbook price.

are you trolling or just completely fucking retarded? 15"+ screen in a netbook? do you even know what the term implies? I'll give you a hint, it's not just a new word for notebook.

Re:The cost of being "chic"

[Anonymous Coward]

Kills me that we actually think that 2 pounds and 1 more hour of battery life is going to physically break the average student or mobile exec.

Why is the world filled with idiots who can't understand that some people think differently from the way they do?

Little tiny keys!

[RiffRafff]

From the article:
"Happily, the Inspiron Mini 12 adopts a more standard sub-note layout with near full-size keys (a quick measure of a prised-off letter key came in at 1.8mm x 1.7mm, but we could be out by a few mils)."

That's like 0.071 X 0.067 inches. Does it come with a stylus for those keys?

Only one thing to recommend it

[Overzeetop]

It's cheap relative to the existing small Dell laptops. The E4200 is the latest in the line - 12" screen, intel processors, battery life exceeding 6 hours (much more with the add-on battery), and thinner (.8" vs .9"), lighter (2.2lb vs 2.7), and with more options generally, including a full-up docking station option.

Sure, the newest series will set you back 2 grand (though sales do come up quite frequently), but the older versions which are the D4xxx series can be found on ebay for about $400-$600. They are, of course, a smidge heavier and thicker that the mini 12 (3lb and 1"), but - again - they're a full pc for what you're paying for a netbook.

Me? Well, the wife has a D420. It's fantastic. I am trying to decide between a precision M2400 and an M6400 - light and nimble vs. no compromises speed and having to reinforce the seams in my backpack. I've got an M70 as my primary machine, and it's good but getting a bit long in the tooth for my CAD apps. I'm still waiting for a netbook in a tablet form factor. I'd really like to have something about 2lbs that I can turn portrait and just surf/read PDFs with a pop-up onscreen keyboard.

600?599?899?

[Airborne-ng]

Just wondering where these price speculations came out of as I purchased my mini 9 for $486 shipped, and that was the upgraded model with 16GB SSD, and 1GB RAM. I got Ubuntu on it (saves you $50 too btw) and I use it for school. I don't bother taking the power cord with me as the battery lasts for 5 hours.

The article says it right

[Lord Byron II]

1GB RAM paired with Vista is just disgusting. It's ridiculous that Intel limited the installed RAM to 1GB.

It is pricey

[elfguy]

I wouldn't even consider it a netbook at that size and price. Every other netbook is around 9-10" and costs $300-$500. This is more like a smallish notebook. Certainly not what I was hoping for as I'm searching for the best netbook to get.

Two minutes to boot up? That's ludicrous!

[crivens]

Two minutes to boot up? That's ludicrous!

Guys! RTFA! Go visit the link, NOW!

[Provocateur]

It's all ON ONE PAGE! Even the photos! Not spread out across 12, 11, or 10 ad-filled pop-up strewn pages!

Go check it out! This is a sure sign, The world is coming to an end in 30 minutes!

Seriously!

Smaller AND more expensive? Dumb idea.

[gelfling]

Who will buy these? Rappers? I want and CAN GET a 17" laptop for that price. You still can't shove a 12" laptop in your pocket.

Re:Working mobile

[evilviper]

The 9" netbooks are not really good for anything that involves a lot of typing.

That may be true, but it's entirely the fault of the designers. 9 inches (diagonal) is entirely enough room for a full-sized keyboard. The keyboard I'm typing on right now is just slightly larger than that. (http://www.vpi.us/keyboard-mini.html)

But somehow, when it's for a laptop, designers go stupid on us, making brain-dead design decisions. I have a MUCH easier time touch-typing accurately on my tiny (7") Psion 5's keyboard, than on my much larger (11") laptop.

IMHO, manufacturers could EASILY choose better-designed keyboards for laptops, at nominal extra cost. But since they've proven unwilling to do so, they should at least standardize keyboard sizes, connectors, etc., and make it trivially easy to swap them out with 3rd party units.

worse specs than Mini 9 and is with Vista?

[MobyTurbo]

It can't be upgraded to 2GB RAM, unlike the mini 9, yet at the same time runs the more demanding Windows Vista OS rather than XP or Linux. It also comes with by default a 1.3GHz processor rather than 1.6GHz, though this is supposed to help with battery life, which is shortened by the bigger screen. The only real advantage I see is that it has a real keyboard.

Re:worse specs than Mini 9 and is with Vista?

[Glonoinha]

The 1280x800 screen is also pretty nifty. I envision a bunch of these getting back-fitted with XP, and once done I am guessing they will run pretty nicely. Vista on this thing - well I've heard stupider things, but not today.

Re:worse specs than Mini 9 and is with Vista?

[MobyTurbo]

The 1280x800 screen is also pretty nifty. I envision a bunch of these getting back-fitted with XP, and once done I am guessing they will run pretty nicely. Vista on this thing - well I've heard stupider things, but not today.

Another comment says the chipset can only run Vista. Dell must really have a sweetheart deal with Microsoft on this thing. :-)

My old Dell C400

[smallmj]

I fail to see much difference between this and my Dell Latitude C400. Its got a 12.1 inch screen, a Pentium III M 1 GHz CPU, 768 MB RAM (after my upgrades), wieghs less than 3 pounds and gets 2-3 hours of battery life. It's missing 3G support (but who can afford the data plans....)

This puppy isn't a netbook, its a 7 year old ultra portable.

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Netbook? I don't think so

[Anonymous Coward]

I simply refuse to call this a netbook.It seems like laptop reviewers and there standards have been ported to netbooks. I for instance there is that wired review which calls a netbook with a sub-2 hour battery life the "best of the bunch". Why? Because it's screen size was a inch bigger and you were paying at least 25% MORE than the competition.

This is a LAPTOP not a Netbook, the price and the size say so.

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Screen resolution

[Cthefuture]

The best thing about this is they're finally put something with a decent resolution in a laptop. Dell has done this before (eg. my 15" Dell C840 has an excellent 1600x1200 LCD) and I'm glad to finally see a 12" screen with decent resolution. 1280x800, most laptops do 1024 max at 12" which is totally stupid with the giant pixels. ~85 DPI? LOL, what is this the 90's?

Is a 12" laptop really a netbook though? I don't think so. Now stuff a 1280x800 screen into a $500 (max) 10" netbook and get back to me (this is approximately 128 DPI screen, perfect). You might just get a customer.

(yes, I realize DPI is not calculated from the diagonal but the measurements vary so much between manufacturers that you can't calculate an exact figure without the machine sitting right in front of you)

Terrible Effort

[Anonymous Coward]

If this was Dell's effort to try to compete with the Mac Book Air, then I will just sit back and watch it fail..... miserably. This thing doesn't even come close to the Mac Book Air in terms of design and looks and is over 1 year late to even try to compete.

The Dell Dock... copying Apple?

[Crazyswedishguy]

FTFA:

Also making an appearance is the Dell Dock, which despite the Mac-like connotations of the name is no more than a prettied-up program launcher which slides in and out from the top of the screen as needed. I can see this appealing to average users who may even take the time to customise it with their own groups and program shortcuts, but it says something about the Windows OS that Dell feels the need to add another launcher to the desktop.[...]
Dell Dock: it looks a little Mac OS-ish but is really just a shortcut bar for launch your most-used apps

Is it just me, or does this thing look exactly like the Mac OSX dock, and perform a very similar function?

Given the recent patent, which Apple received for the dock, I wonder if this represents a patent infringement (or if Dell has licensed it)?

Re:The Dell Dock... copying Apple?

[Penguin Follower]

I thought the exact same thing - Dell has Apple-envy....

I thought Netbooks were supposed to be inexpensive

[Jazz-Masta]

The first "generation" of Netbooks - if you can call it a generation, were inexpensive.

They served a single purpose - very basic internet access for cheap. The EEE PCs were roughly $349/$399 (CDN) for the first batch and were cheaper than any other notebook/netbook available.

Now the EEE PCs start at $400 and top out at close to $1000. The Lenovo, MSI, Acer and Dells all come in around $400 - $650 for the same feature set that last year was $399. There has certainly been a price premium put on these for the luxury of portability. They are now competing with price (but not performance) of other ultraportable 12.1" notebooks! Some of these netbooks are not much more portable than a Thinkpad X60/61 - and not much cheaper in some cases.

12.1 is no netbook

[Anonymous Coward]

That piece of junk is not a netbook. It's big, has a normal hard drive (not a solid state drive), huge keyboard etc.. It costs just as much or more as other notebooks.

If this was supposed to compete as a mini, it is an epic fail.

Re:Working mobile

[Anonymous Coward]

"But did you know they had outlets in many european trains?"

Yah but it's not powerful enough to really hurt anybody

oops did I say that out loud?

My opinion

[CrazyTalk]

Has wireless - but still less space than a Nomad. Lame.

Meanwhile....

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost 60 days later, my mini-inspiron 9 still hasn't shipped....

Yeah I'm pissed, but now I'm just sticking it out to see how long it takes to complete my order.

Re:Working mobile

[jabithew]

But did you know they had outlets in many european trains?

Yup. Come to Europe, our intercity trains have power sockets, wireless internet access and move at a reasonable speed.

Also, tasty cheese.

netbooks are sub-10"

[wikinerd]

A 12" machine is not a netbook, no matter what CPU it has, it is a subnotebook. Netbooks are small, below 10". Even at exactly 10" a machine is more close to subnotebooks rather than to netbooks. If the machine is up to 5-6" then it is a UMPC, if it is up to 9-9.5" it is a netbook, if it is up to 12" it is a subnotebook, if it is up to 13-14" it is a small laptop, if it is up to 15-16" it is a laptop, if it is up to 17-18" it is a large laptop, and if it is bigger it is a portable for the home or office (portable but not mobile).

Re:netbooks are sub-10"

[TeknoHog]

Well, I for one am glad that somebody cleared that up. Because it's all about the name, not what you do with it.

My first laptop, a 486, had a screen of slightly over 10" diagonal. It was just a smallish laptop. I used it as my first web server, which is kind of weird, since we all know that a server is a big, ugly box sitting in a dedicated server room. But there's no way that something can be a laptop^Wsubnotebook and a server at the same time.

Another non-gigE laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, 10/100 Ethernet port, for absolutely no justified reason.

I thought this kind of bullshit was out the door as of last year, but apparently not.

Also, this just in, codename for their new laptop is "wo you da tou" (I have a big head).

Re:Another non-gigE laptop

[TeknoHog]

The VGA port is even more stupid, IMHO. 10/100 Ethernet is still digital. With VGA you have not just an analog connection, but all kinds of complications due to the CRT-based design, while in most cases the display itself is no longer a CRT.

Re:Another non-gigE laptop

[brianez21]

The VGA port is even more stupid, IMHO.

That analog port is invaluable for a traveling businessman that needs to hook up their netbook to a VGA projector to make a presentation.

Re:Another non-gigE laptop

[TeknoHog]

That analog port is invaluable for a traveling businessman that needs to hook up their netbook to a VGA projector to make a presentation.

Most projectors and displays have digital internals, but they still include VGA, just in case you want to connect something from the 1980s. VGA is rarely the only possible input.

On the other hand, we have shiny new laptops with multicore processors etc, but they output VGA only, just in case your projector happens to be from the 1980s. The problem here seems to be that there's no room for multiple video outputs. So we're stuck with the lowest common denominator.

One solution for the video outputs would be DVI-I, as it includes VGA signals along with a relatively modern digital signal. It's slightly larger than a VGA connector though, and dealing with adapters is probably too much to ask from most people.

But if adapters are OK, you could just as well use HDMI or Displayport, both of which have smaller connectors than VGA. And a modern projector should have one of these connectors anyway.

Prefect for me

[motang]

Exactly what I had been holding out for...I am really glad. $999 isn't US dollars it is going to be price below $600. Going to wait for the one that is going to be coming with Ubuntu. :)

Think about the Latitude D420

[crowbarsarefornerdyg]

I'm posting this from a Latitude D420 laptop. It's got a 12.1 inch screen running at 1200x800. It's got a dual core processor, a gig of RAM, an 80GB HDD, and a/b/g wifi built in, and it's capable of taking an a/b/g/n card. It's also got integrated bluetooth, IRDa, and a slot for a WWAN card, with antennas. The processor only runs at 780MHz, but it does my photo editing at better speeds than my old 2.8GHz single core celeron laptop did. It weighs 2.5lbs, and I don't often think about the added weight in my gear bag. It also has a smartcard reader and a TPM chip. The security is incredible on this machine. I love this laptop.

I paid $400 for it secondhand. My only complaints about this machine are the memory, hard drive and lack of integral optical drive. 512MB of the RAM is soldered onto the mainboard, so if my memory takes a dump, it means a new motherboard. The hard drive is a 1.8" drive, and they're difficult to find at my favorite parts places.

I regularly play Diablo 2 on this computer, and it runs it perfectly. I get online with my cell phone tethered by bluetooth, and when I find a decent deal on a WWAN card, I'm installing one inside the machine. Sure, 12.1 inches on the screen is kinda small, but the keyboard is practically the size of a standard laptop keyboard, and I can type just fine on this computer. It does run a little hot, but that's alright. I get ~2 hours of battery life out of the machine. It also has a nice strike zone around the hard drive to protect it, and I've dropped it more than once. This machine is tough for being a Dell.

Not exactly first 12-inch Dell...

[Neanderthal Ninny]

Way back in 2000 I got an Dell Latitude LS 500 as my work laptop. Here is the spec of the laptop:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bobjohnson.com/_Sitefiles/productimages/dell-l400-l.bmp&imgrefurl=http://www.bobjohnson.com/_store/Display_Products.asp%3FprodID%3D389_dell_ls&h=370&w=394&sz=427&tbnid=nXGEdnMu1koJ::&tbnh=116&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDell%2BLatitude%2BLS&usg=__jiBZaZSiEuxh6fliFBc36OMFIn8=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=9&ct=image&cd=1

I used it as an "between workstation" during my commuting from home and work which has the workstations. Similar to the functions of the MacBookAir and the current Dell Inspiron Mini 12.
The Dell Latitude LS had and external optical & floppy drive which was included as part of the package.
This package type and style is far from being unusual and this is not the "first" so I don't understand the hoppla is all about. Yes, it is faster and larger capacity in hard drive and RAM, but again the format of this laptop is not new.

Dell Netbooks......

[Anonymous Coward]

As mentioned above theres a heap of great second hand Dell netbooks surfacing around, the X200 was one of these. The X300 successor was nice also

I managed to get my hands on a Latitude X1 (AKA Samsung Q30 in Japan) for around AUD$380. Came stock with 3 cell battery but the Pentium M ULV makes good use of it, there is a 6 cell available! screen res is 1280x768 and it has the same Intel 915 chipset used in most EeePC's.

It run's Linux excellently, typing this via Fedora Rawhide.

Standing at 1.3kg and 12.1" it proves the inspiron 12 is nothing new. The only thing lacking on the X1 is expandable Mini PCI-E (MiniPCI only).

If you want the latest and greatest Dell 12.1" netbook, go the Latitude E4200, it's simply stunning and comes with SSD, and weighs in at only 1kg.

Move down the IBM line, not down to low quality.

[sethstorm]

Two of them and barely half the price of the Thinkpad I just got rid of. Admittedly the Thinkpad is much more powerful, but in my experience, not a lot more useful, and I certainly would not carry it around in the flap of my camera bag like I do the eee.

An x30, x31, x40 or such would have certainly been able to fit the same role, outlast that netbook, and not have cut-rate electronics in it (e.g. Realtek/VIA). Move down the Thinkpad line, not down in quality.

That, and you don't have the issue of screen space. The worst they get is 800x600.

Re:Working mobile

[Glonoinha]

Also, tasty cheese.

Fumunda?

But seriously - two things to remember about the new netbook : the price at $600 (which someone else calculated above) assumes that the Australian price is the same price it will have in the USA (which is generally not the case - Aussies pay a pretty serious markup on cool toys, enough that it's worth buying them here when they come visit), and this one finally delivers a screen resolution is finally high enough to get some real work done. The 320x240 (or even the high dollar 640x480) resolution iPaqs - not even big enough to see most dialog boxes in Windows when doing a Termserver connection. 800x600 isn't much better - what is this, 1995? Life begins at 1024x768 and the real juice starts about one notch higher than that.

They figure how to ship these in the $400 range in the States and I see them selling a TON of them. At $500 it is competing with $500 laptops and a bit of a toss up. At $600 it is a yuppy toy - which means I might get lucky and buy one used a year from now for half that.

finger points

[zogger]

Math aside, I guess you could grow girlier pointy finger nails, but something like a thimble for each typing finger that came to a better shaped blunt and small tapered to a flat surface designed to fit *thing* might work on these little keyboards. Typing thimbles. Just a thought....

Cut-rate netbook? I'll take the Sony after a few..

[sethstorm]

One thing it really does is pull the rug out from under those vastly overpriced $2500 SONY mini-laptops. The only reason to buy those was small size, and that reason just vanished.

Not really. Those Sony mini-laptops still have a bit better construction and hardware than your cut-rate netbook. Asus can try again when they stop cutting corners by using Realtek, using sub-standard(never mind them taking forever to get close to XGA) displays and all over construction. Not a Toughbook, but something that at least tries to make a stab at quality.

Re:At $550, it's aimed at Mac Mini Owners

[nobaloney]

Most likely they're both right. At least on the day they were written. According to xe.com: 995.00 AUD = 614.486 USD

Re:Working mobile

[sethstorm]

IMHO, manufacturers could EASILY choose better-designed keyboards for laptops, at nominal extra cost. But since they've proven unwilling to do so, they should at least standardize keyboard sizes, connectors, etc., and make it trivially easy to swap them out with 3rd party units.

Save your pain and just go with IBM/Lenovo. They are still the standard bearer when it comes to keyboards (despite what they have done).

That, and you don't have to have a cut-rate quality netbook attached to it. An older X series can do just fine and still fit the bill.

Re:Working mobile

[evilviper]

Save your pain and just go with IBM/Lenovo. They are still the standard bearer when it comes to keyboards (despite what they have done).

I've owned two Thinkpads over the years. Their keyboards aren't the worst, but they aren't all that great, either.

That, and you don't have to have a cut-rate quality netbook attached to it. An older X series can do just fine and still fit the bill.

The world is moving on... Power consumption, weight, etc. The EEE PC is the one everyone latched on to, but some others are even better (spec-wise), provided their designs were fleshed out just a little bit more. eg. http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=ALPHA-400&cat=NBB