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Apple Plans To Make Chips For Handhelds
Preedit writes "Apple plans to get into the business of designing microprocessors for handheld devices, according to legal papers that are part of a dispute between IBM and one of its top technology executives. IBM is suing Power chip expert Mark Papermaster for allegedly violating a non-compete agreement and accepting a job at Apple. In court papers, IBM claims Apple wants Papermaster 'to design microprocessors for incorporation in a variety of electronic devices, including handheld devices.' The suit, according to Infoweek, also notes that Apple earlier this year bought out P.A. Semi. IBM thinks it knows why."
When you buy a mobile chip designer what else are you going to do with it?
Apple isn't using Power chips in any of its current computers, is it? The iPod and iPhone are ARM, and they're not making or shipping anything but x86-based Macs.
What am I missing?
non compete employment agreement are not viewed very favorably in California.
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/08/california-supreme-c-1.html
http://www.workforce.com/section/03/feature/25/82/12/index.html
http://www.employlaw.com/noncompete.htm
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Remember, they did say that 1984 won't be like 1984.
"Mark Papermaster"? What is it with all the oddball last names in the technology business? There's Faith Popcorn, but wikipedia says her birthname was Faith Plotkin. But "Papermaster" sounds like someone who should be running either a D&D game or Dunder Mifflin (or Wernham Hogg, I guess).
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Why? If you spend 5 years at a company and learn 'the trade' on their dime they should be safe from you running to the next company and spilling everything they worked hard to make, at lest for a short time. It would be massively unfair for me to take your designs for "insert tech here" and run to "insert corp/country of choice" and beat you to market , or, very closely join you.
except non-compete agreements were ruled unconstitutional
And rightly so, I shall add. Non-compete agreements are total crap and I hope IBM gets smacked down hard in court over this frivolous lawsuit.
What, you thought I was going to support IBM on this one? Don't believe everything you read in the subject line ;o)
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
And what was the last company that thought designing their own chips was a good idea. NVidia right?
Um, nVidia has no option but to design their own chips, they're the top GPU designer in the world. A better question would be why Intel bothers designing their own GPUs instead of partnering with nVidia.
That ended in epic fail.
The failure wasn't in the chips, it was in the mounting.
Apple chips are bland and only favored by dieters and health nuts. Now if the company was called 'Tortilla,' well, then...that would be delicious!
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
THere are other laws that handle those situations. Telling a person he cant work in his professional field because he USED to work for you is wrong and unethical. People > Corporations.
Good-bye
Stealing designs is already illegal in the first place. Non compete agreements prevent you from taking a similar job after your current job has been terminated, even if you have no intention to steal your former employer's trade secrets.
The real aim of non compete agreements is to lower your negotiation power. Take this salary cut, and no you can't go to the competition because of the non compete.
Sorry, but it's not fair for one company to have better employees than another company, just because the hire smarter people or give them better training. We must redistribute smart, knowledgeable employees to companies that aren't as well off.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Why? If you spend 5 years at a company and learn 'the trade' on their dime they should be safe from you running to the next company and spilling everything they worked hard to make, at lest for a short time. It would be massively unfair for me to take your designs for "insert tech here" and run to "insert corp/country of choice" and beat you to market , or, very closely join you.
Yea..the keyword there is if. If you do that, then you should suffer the legal consequences (if there are any), but you shouldn't be punished simply because you could do that. In any event, treat your valued professionals like they are valued, otherwise somebody else will. Like it or not, the labor market succumbs to the same market forces that every other market does...
Power.org is the standards body that controls the POWER(PC) ISA specifications, among other things. Its members include IBM, *Apple*, Freescale and many others. If you want to build a custom designed chip based on one of the ISAs "owned" by Power.org, then all you need to do is become a member and license the ISA of your choice. You are then free to design any kind of custom *micro*-architecture your heart desires as long as the ISA presented by your chip/micro-architecture is compatible with the ISA you licensed from Power.org .
I want some of whatever the hell IBM is smoking.
jdb2
If you want to squirt your friends either get a Zune or buy a sex sling, but leave my Apple stuff alone.
If they can't keep you there by treating you well, providing you opportunity to grow or paying you well. Then why does a company deserve to hold a monopoly on your employment?
The other problem with non-competes is that there have been numerous cases where employees are laid-off, but their NC are enforced preventing them from getting jobs in the industry.
Also a company should not be defined by an individual contributor. A company's success depends greatly on the culture and teamwork within that company. Something that is not easy to export (or import, as many merged companies have found out).
Also "trade secrets" and patents are outside of the scope of a non-compete clause. And you are liable for civil damages if you distribute trade secrets. Even if you no longer work for that company.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Chip designing these days is like the child game you used to play called connecting the dots.
People use the term SoC(system on chip) to describe them. It's actually quite modular. Basically you can license a arm core or a mips core and put in all your other blocks(PCI, USB, ethernet) all on the same chip, so if Apple were to license the ppc architecture from IBM I'm sure IBM would be happy. I doubt thats what they are doing since the iPhone is based on ARM.
Not a lot of people design processors from scratch anymore.
Unless he designs the processor from scratch he's really not competing. I can't imagine apple doing something that stupid.
That article alludes to his experience with low power. He probably knows a few tricks on how to reduce power load. This is the expertise they are drawing from. He isn't competing with IBM; MIPS, ARM and intel is.
I don't know about most places, but in California (where Apple is based), the courts have already ruled that non-compete clauses are invalid.
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
Redistribution of knowledge? Only if your IQ is over 250k
Or people should stop signing them. Personal responsibility and all that.
There are several types of licenses one can buy from ARM. The most expensive type, the type Apple is rumored to have acquired, is an architectural license, which allows one to design ones own CPU core. Why would Apple buy this expensive of a license if all they were going to do was "connect-the-dots"?
A better question would be why Intel bothers designing their own GPUs instead of partnering with nVidia.
Might be because nVidia's chips are heavily based on licensed technology, which would restrict what Intel could do with it.
Wasn't there a problem with Microsoft being pissed off because of nVidia's license for the XBox GPU, making them go to ATI for the 360?
Something like that, don't remember where I read it though.
Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
So that's what that is! I thought my MacBook had just sprung a leak!
Currently hooked on AMP
They designed Multicore server chips based on IBM Power architecture. (Also Mot, err freescale G4 based SOC's) Too bad they couldn't get IBM to invest in Power licensing besides gaming consoles for Apple.
Here is their website, they seem like any design boutique - but especially a former IBM licensee - another slap, but where was IBM when Apple needed faster & low power portable notebook chips? Kissing game console makers asses is where...
They were all about loving IBM according to this copy of the website - now, maybe not so big on Power server chips... IBM made it's choices. http://web.archive.org/web/20070927205658/http://www.pasemi.com/
God forbid people show some personal responsibility and not work for companies that force such agreements. Of course since it seems people will put it with anything as long as those numbers next to the $ are slightly bigger than at another company I'm not surprised.
"Why? If you spend 5 years at a company and learn 'the trade' on their dime they should be safe from you running to the next company and spilling everything they worked hard to make, at lest for a short time."
That would be true if they just paid you to hang out and learn. Their "dime" goes to pay you for the work you did to help their company prosper.
You can't take any trade secrets with you, but the general knowledge you gained belongs to you.
that may be true in some cases, but given that "IBM offered to pay Mr. Papermaster one year's salary in exchange for Mr. Papermaster to respect his contractual obligation to refrain from working for an IBM competitor for one year," i don't think that's the case.
it seems to me like they just don't want to lose their trade secrets to their competitor. and in a hi-tech field like chip design, a year's lead on the competition would be very significant (or at the very least enough for the trade secrets held by a former employer to be no longer worth much to their competitors). it doesn't seem like they were trying to prevent their employee from negotiating better pay or even to prevent them from defecting to a competitor.
assuming that Apple wants this former IBM employee for his innate skills rather than just his knowledge of IBM's chip design or business strategy, then there's no reason why they can't wait a year to poach him. if i were in the employee's position, i'd just take the compensation bonus and go on a year's worth of paid leave.
I wonder if Sam Palmisano threw a chair across the room when he heard this guy was joining Apple...
SoC?
Apple?
Handheld?
I'm seeing visions of PalmOS again (and Graffiti).
When you buy a mobile chip designer what else are you going to do with it?
The same you do when you buy a 3D graphics chips designer - not much? The only thing we see coming out of it is a person: Bob Mansfield - Senior Vice President, Mac Hardware Engineering
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
that he is in no way associated with the guy named "Pharmamaster".
Not quite true. A lot of companies still design microprocessors from scratch.
For example, look at Chinese Longsoon CPUs, nanochip, OpenCores, and so on. I also know that several CPUs are designed from scratch in Russia.
Obviously so that nobody else can buy a P.A. Semi chip (which is a low-powered version of the PowerPC 970), build the Powerbook G5 that Apple and IBM can't build, and basically telling Apple, "how do you like them apples?"
I also know that several CPUs are designed from scratch in Russia.
In Soviet Russia... oh - wait - nvm.
if Apple were to license the ppc architecture from IBM ...
You do know that Apple was part of the AIM alliance that created the ppc. I don't believe they need to license it from IBM.
Life's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Choices and consequences. If you feel that strongly about non-competes, don't take the job. Find another. If you can't, you need to more closely examine your choices.
In the original post you were an obnoxious git, now you are pathetic. You really should have done that anonymously.
Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
if Apple were to license the ppc architecture from IBM ...
You do know that Apple was part of the AIM alliance that created the ppc. I don't believe they need to license it from IBM.
Yeah, I do know that. And I'm wondering why Apple is acquiring all of this PPC expertise when they're using ARM processors in their handhelds, and Intel in their computers.
You have to wonder if PPC plays any role in their future product plans. I'm not sure I see the logic of acquiring all kinds of PPC expertise to build ARM processors....
Not quite true. A lot of companies still design microprocessors from scratch.
For example, look at Chinese Longsoon CPUs, nanochip, OpenCores, and so on. I also know that several CPUs are designed from scratch in Russia.
And I think the fact that none of the rest of us have ever heard of those chips/companies proves the GP's point. Interesting, though. Thanks for sharing.
This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
traditionally trade secrets are held to a different standard as a non-compete. Even after a non-compete expires your still not allowed to disclose trade secrets. The sole reason for a non-compete is to render the signer completely useless for a year or two to prevent companies in the same line of work from benefiting from another companies stupidity. It completely goes against the point of a capitalistic society, which is why many states just tear it up as overstepping legal bounds of a contract. There are exceptions (typically if you are leaving with a nice severance package, then a non-compete is legal, but if they are just laying you off with nothing, then judges usually throw out the contract.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
I think I qualify as 'one of the rest of us' here, and I've heard of them. A lot of chips that go into embedded devices don't get a ton of press.
Hold on, this is what IBM has put in this lawsuit. This NEW lawsuit. This lawsuit started AFTER the whole Power PC transition was complete. I know what was rumored THREE YEARS AGO, but why is IBM referring to it NOW?
So you're saying IBM claims they believe in a rumor that was proven false three years ago in a lawsuit filed today?
If an employee is ethical, non-compete clauses aren't necessary.
I've been in a situation where I have moved jobs and been asked by my boss at the new employer for technical details of something I developed at my previous company, and refused - my position was that I would happily develop something different but equally effective for my new employer, but that the particular formulation belonged exclusively to my previous employer. I was prepared to use my expertise, but not any knowledge of the other company's implementation.
What was upsetting was that the second employer had an explicit non-compete clause in the contract I signed (without any intent of being held to it - here in the EU they can't be upheld as they restrict the employees freedom of movement), but seemed to think it OK to try to steal trade secrets from a competitor.
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
Why did I have to read right to the end of the comments to find the first really insightful one?
And from an AC, at that!
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
There's no such thing as PPC or ARM expertise. Once you get past the instruction decoder, you are designing an execution engine. The kind of workload you expect influences this design a lot more than the ISA.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Seems to me that if you work in a fairly specialized field, like microprocessor design, then pretty much your only choice to stay in the field when you leave your current employment is to go to a competitor; everyone else in the field is a competitor. It's pretty unusual for a court to enforce a clause which boils down to "if you leave the company you can't work in your field".
Well if you only look at "name brand" stuff advertised on tv, instead of the components that go into it :-)
Do you think your mouse runs by magic? No, it may well have an 8 bit CPU based on a *cut-down* 6502 (who needs a Y register after all...) by WinBond in it (or equivalent).
Admittedly the mighty ARM is all-conquering, but SunPlus group design their own chip which is (in various forms) in tens of millions or maybe hundreds of millions of toys on the shelves of Walmart. And finally they have admitted to its design with a website that actually contains real information! (Well probably not about the variants that have sound processing and graphics processing, but the core CPU is described. Now if only it described the object file relocation info format...).
And the ARM itself is getting a little... bloated... perhaps, after so many years.
Not likely. The 6502 is a particularly brain-dead architecture.
Your mouse is more likely to have a PIC or something, anything, newer than a 6502.
Well I was talking about optomechanical mice there (shining LEDs through a rotating grating, instead of video processing a picture of your desk), which might be a little out of date now, so if you have a new PC your mileage may vary. Winbond are/were a major manufacturer for mice chips based on 6502 chips lets say five years ago (no patents and licensing fees there), but this year they have been spun off into Nuvoton, which apparently uses the "CompactRISC 16" CPU from National Semiconductor. I guess 16 bits is so cheap now they can use it even for mice and keyboards. It looks roughly the same power as the chips I am using at the moment (hopefully less banking involved) which are doing rather more than managing a keyboard.
Apple is designing a dedicated chip to offload gayness from the CPU
Ha! Now I know what the "G" in "GPU" _really_ stands for.
-- Home is where you eat your heart out.
Might be because nVidia's chips are heavily based on licensed technology, which would restrict what Intel could do with it.
Wasn't there a problem with Microsoft being pissed off because of nVidia's license for the XBox GPU, making them go to ATI for the 360?
All GPUs have some licensed technologies but for the most part Microsoft has bought these technologies from their inventors and licensed them freely with Direct3D. The vast majority of a Nvidia GPU's logic is their very own proprietary stuff. Definitely not "heavily based on licensed tehcnology", if that's what you meant. Granted, there is a lot of cross-licensing going on, but Microsoft handles most of it centrally, and the crucial parts (especially the humongous shader execution core) are all Nvidia. (Or ATI etc. respectively.)
Microsoft and Nvidia went through a legal arbitration process because Nvidia was sticking to the about $50 per chip they had agreed on, and Microsoft was already making a heavy loss on Xbox hardware. (Not just a tolerable loss as per the royalty-based console business model but a heavy loss.) Next time with the 360 Microsoft didn't buy chips, they contracted ATI to just design the GPU and handled the manufacturing themselves to have full control of the chip price. They had a similar deal with IBM about the CPU. The handwawing was only about money, not about immaterial rights to the design per se.
A year out of the industry is not going to be looked on favourably by future employers, so even receiving full pay for the duration is not enough compensation for such a restrictive term in my contract. HR normally backs off when you point things out in these terms.
The 6502 sure was popular for a brain-dead CPU.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.