In AU, Dodgy Dell Deal Faces Consumer Backlash

Ben Seberry writes "It appears Dell has been caught red-faced by yet another pricing mistake on their Australian website. Many customers thought they had spotted a fantastic deal when they came across a 55%-off offer. Dell later denied that this was a valid special and telephoned customers to offer them a choice of the standard price, or a cancelled order. Dell's senior manager of corporate communication came out and apologized for the mistake, promising processes would be reviewed to prevent it from happening again. In the days after the original 'incorrectly priced' offer was fixed, Dell made a different error leading to an even cheaper price being advertised. This time, on many user forums and blogs, users are debating Australian contract law as it applies to this matter — it is not as clear-cut as many originally believed."

Comments

Too good to be true?

[Kokuyo]

I don't know about US economic laws but in Switzerland, if something is obviously too good to be true and there has been a mistake, the company can actually declare any contracts made invalid.

Or if it's a real life product in a real life windows with a hilariously low price, the sales people are not obligated to make the sale at that price.

So if it's too good to be true you'll have to expect it to actually BE too good to be true.

The tough question just is: Is 55% off unrealistic?

Re:Too good to be true?

[Desipis]

The tough question just is: Is 55% off unrealistic?

Here in Oz we routinely get ads for rug stores with 90% off.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets be honest - When its not a sale at Dell, its usually over priced (Especially when adding components)

55% off old hardware sounds right to me!

Re:Too good to be true?

[Creepy Crawler]

Is there a similar day to our Black Friday?

Black Friday is the day after Thanksgiving (last Thursday in November) in which darn near every business has crazy rock-bottom deals. I've seen 200$ laptops before netbooks, free computer equipment, and god knows what other stuff.

Re:Too good to be true?

[aussie_a]

So they get to continue to falsely advertise as much as they want, as long as the discount is low enough?

Now first time, sure its a mistake. Second time though? And only days later. They didn't double check and make sure it was right?

Re:Too good to be true?

[jaxtherat]

I call bullshit on that. Dell is routinely cheaper than:

Lenovo
HP
ASUS
IBM
Sun

for almost anything, and hence why their hardware is occasionally a bit dodgy. The only manufacturer that is cheaper (and nastier) is Acer. *shudder*

Disclaimer: I actually don't mind Dell, especially their servers, but they do occasionally ship you a lemon. You get what you pay for I guess.

Re:Too good to be true?

[AuMatar]

I priced out some gaming machines about 6 months ago before deciding to build myself. Dell was significantly more expensive than HP and several white box vendors on every set of specs I checked out.

Re:Too good to be true?

[a.ameri]

The equivalent in Australia would be the Boxing Day (the day after Christmas). Especially the boxing day morning. There are long queues outside any retail shop in all major cities. Usually everything is sold out by midday. I lived in UK for a while and it's even bigger than the sale they have over there. Reading the Wikipedia page, it seems like the same phenomenon exists in Canada and South Africa as well, so it must have been a British Empire thing.

Re:Too good to be true?

[throbber]

In Australia the retailer is obliged to honour any published price, even if the price is a mistake or a typo in the printing of a catalogue. Failure to do so will leave the retailer liable to legal action if enough people raise complaints to the ACCC.

Re:Too good to be true?

[caluml]

I don't know about US economic laws but in Switzerland, if something is obviously too good to be true and there has been a mistake, the company can actually declare any contracts made invalid.

When I started with my current (UK) employer, I had a fairly standard probation period. The salary on that contract was £XX,000 per hour. I think they owe me about £19m pounds. More with the 7 years of interest that they've accumulated too. I've often wondered about the "...but it was **obviously** wrong" defence. What's the point of a contract if, if there is something wrong, you can just annul it?
Any UK lawyers want to try it, no win, no fee? :)

Re:Too good to be true?

[KDR_11k]

Before netbooks. He saw laptops sold for $200 before netbooks existed.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is wrong. Retractions/corrections are routinely published in Australian newspapers. No one is obliged to do anything in these situations.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Kneo24]

You can't get away with that in the U.S. If you advertise something as one price, and some sort of agreement is already made, i.e. you paid for it, it has to be honored.

It happens all the time, especially at gas pumps. They make it 20 cents a gallon instead of $2.00 a gallon. They have to eat whatever losses they incurred during that time and fix their mistake so it doesn't happen in the future.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Enter the Shoggoth]

Actually the laws governing this are state determined by state government legistlation.

In NSW (where I live) it _used_ to be the case that retailers were obliged to sell at the advertised price, this was changed a decade or so ago.

Unfortunately, the consumer protection laws were comletely watered down; I can see the argument for a mistake in an advertisment, but the laws covering warranties are now effectively non-existent. If you have a problem during the warranty period the retailer can pass-the-buck onto the manufacturer or distributer and of course when they inevitably turn out to be in another state or country the only recourse you have is to file a civil suit.

I found this out the hard way, and was told by the NSW dept of consumer affairs (or whatever they call themselves these days) that they were unable to do anything other than contact the retailer on my behalf, the retailer told them to get stuffed, so they said the only way forward was to sue.

In Australia the retailer is obliged to honour any published price, even if the price is a mistake or a typo in the printing of a catalogue. Failure to do so will leave the retailer liable to legal action if enough people raise complaints to the ACCC.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Italy the law is totally different. If you make a mistake and advice a product at a ridicolous low price then you are obliged by law to sell it at that price. It does not happens often but I have made very good deals appealing to the law.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Sobrique]

I'm fairly sure UK law includes a 'reasonableness' test, and that a contract that is considered 'unreasonable' cannot be enforced.

But you have to make the case in the court of law as to why that's the case.

Re:Too good to be true?

[LordLucless]

Dell is cheaper than Sun and IBM? Wow, what an endorsement.

Re:Too good to be true?

[TeXMaster]

Were the specs exactly the same? I found that spec'ing Dells to match the HP offers (something which you cannot do in reverse because HP doesn't offer customization like Dell does) results in lower prices, although the difference is not always significant. In fact, all the rest being equal, I can usually get a higher resolution monitor and 9-cells battery (as opposed to the 6-cells batteries offered by HP) for the same price.

(Additionally, Dell and Apple seems to be the only one offering US keyboards in Italy, and Dell costs WAY less than Apple for the same specs.)

Re:Too good to be true?

[calmofthestorm]

And you pay for what you get. All my dells (all laptops, all inspirons, all 3 of them) have died within a year of my buying them, and every month or so after that. To be fair, i always got the warranty so for medium-low reliability it works great: every time it breaks, Dell fixes it in a few days.

Eventually I got sick of a few days downtime very month or so on my primary system and just forked over the cash for a thinkpad.

It was a wise decision. I still see TPs around from six or seven years ago, still in working condition.

Then again, my usage profile is...nontypical. I don't drop it but I do carry it from place to place a lot. I wouldn't say I abuse it, but I do use it quite a bit. Inspiron is consumer grade, thinkpad is corporate grade.

Dell desktops, on the other hand, I've never been disappointed by.

Re:Too good to be true?

[calmofthestorm]

Not precisely. When you buy from Dell, it's not a purchase it's a "sales contract". The laws you mention govern implicit contracts, eg posting a sign, money for product, etc. Dell explicitely states in the contract you sign at purcahse that they have the right to cancel it if it was found to be in error.

Re:Too good to be true?

[AvitarX]

All of the consumer lines (I have owned) from every company have disappointed me.

This includes Macbooks, HPs, Dells, and IBMs.

Pretty consistently the business lines are decent, but you pay an extra couple hundred (worth it) spec for spec often.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Creepy Crawler]

Thanks for actually noticing ^_^

Yeah, I thought about trying to get a hold of one, but they were 1GHz, 256MB ram, and 1 minute battery life (heh well, more like 1 hour). And the stores that sold them had perhaps 2-4 at best... When there's a hundred people in line waiting for opening, good luck getting one.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Creepy Crawler]

Yeah, we also have the rush to the stores the day after Christmas too. We also have the "Christmas Season" rush that happens on the day after Thanksgiving. Many retailers make note that is the beginning of the "Christmas Season".

Same phenomenon too of crazy lines, rude people and rock bottom sales.

Re:Too good to be true?

[houghi]

The same applies in Belgium. If it is obviously a human error, then there is no deal. This can happen if you forgot a 0 at the end and the car is only 10% of the value. It must however be blatantly obvious. e.g. a car for 5.000 instead of the standard 50.000 is obvious.

55% would not be seen as obvious and in Belgium they would be forced to deliver the PC at that price. There are sometimes PCs that are end of stock and can be had had reduced prices. Also you can not sell at a loss in Belgium unless it is the sales period, which is fixed.

Here you must even have a reasonable stock of said items. So you can not say 2EUR for this PC and then only have 1 PC just so you hope people will buy something else. This is what you get in a communist country where the law in principle sides with the people not the companies.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Fred_A]

Not only that but it used to be cheaper than Silicon Graphics and Cray too !

Re:Too good to be true?

[Grimbleton]

My fiancee and I wanted a cheap laptop option for the end of our college days, and picked up the $400 Acer special at WalMart. Two of them, one for each of us.

Two years later, their screens have both died, their hard drives were on the way out, and their batteries are both half dead.

Do they manufacture these fucking flaws in or what?

Re:Too good to be true?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Australia the retailer is obliged to honour any published price, even if the price is a mistake or a typo in the printing of a catalogue. Failure to do so will leave the retailer liable to legal action if enough people raise complaints to the ACCC.

Not correct.

In most states in Australia the retailer can honor the published price or withdraw the item from sale.

If there has been a mistake in the publishing of the price the retailer would be expected to advertise a correction notice in say a newspaper and also have the notice at the point of sale.

heres a link to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission website (ACCC) explaining.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/322984

the ACCC will step in if enough people complain and there has been a breach of the trade practices act.

[I wouldn't hold my breath on this one, they seem to like to take a hands off approach.]

In this case I think what they could get into trouble with is whats known as bait advertising.

heres a link to a story about a retailer called Harvey Norman getting into trouble for this

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1174381.htm

Re:Too good to be true?

[Anonymous Coward]

You buy a $400 Acer laptop at wal-mart, then are surprised when its a hunk of shit?

Really cheap, wal-mart, acer. Maybe you thought three wrongs would make a right?

Re:Too good to be true?

[Grimbleton]

Well, three rights make a left...

Re:Too good to be true?

[Kokuyo]

Well, after they've been made aware of the wrong price, they can no longer claim that it was a mistake, see? Then this price becomes legitimate and they have to sell the stuff at that price.

SO... as long as, in good faith, a price cannot possibly be for real, you have no claim to the item at said price. But once made aware of the price tag, not changing it immediately would, in good faith again, be a sign that the price must be correct.

Remember, though, that IANAL. It's just how I understand it here. I may be wrong :).

Re:Too good to be true?

[omeomi]

It is similar in the US, though many companies do tend to honor mislabeled prices, as long as the difference isn't too ridiculous. This story, however, concerns Australian law...

Re:Too good to be true?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in *all* major cities. Perth, being still stuck in 1950, doesn't allow shops to open the day after Christmas.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Fozzyuw]

I priced out some gaming machines [...]

Well, there you have it. Dell's gaming machines, either their high-end XPS systems or Alienware, do not qualify for their "cheap" parts. They actually use high quality parts for these machines and make you pay for it.

I speak as a Dell XPS owner who bought there lower-end of their high-end XPS system just before they acquired Alienware and compared prices between the two. Alienware was fairly more expensive for just about the same specs at that time. Though, now that they own Alienware, they're trying not to cannibalize their own sales so they likely set their prices comparable. (The XPS brand use to be a direct competitor to Alienware) So, you should be able to cheaper "gaming" PC's. Regular PC's? Dell does offer great price points in comparison.

I still love my XPS system. It's been running like a champ and only had one problem when we experienced flooding. Though, that was 100% covered by Dell since I dropped a couple hundred more for the accidental damage service, given I tend to move around a lot. Best service I ever had, though, you definitely have to pay for it to get it from Dell. My Inspiron 8100's service was another story that could rank up their will "Dell Hell".

Re:Too good to be true?

[boris111]

Forcing families to spend time together ewwww.

Re:Too good to be true?

[jopsen]

I think in Denmark you can be charged with a thing called misleading or deceiving marketing. I'd suppose a company repetitively advertising with the wrong prices would at some point face charges.

Re:Too good to be true?

[throbber]

They have changed their advertising in that case and a new advertisment has been made. If you manage to buy something while the current ad is in place you get it, otherwise they are guilty of false advertising.

IBM were caught out by that a few when they had some Thinkpads listed as $200 instead of $2000.

Re:Too good to be true?

[throbber]

And they are genuine "Farkarie Rugs" ...

(Someone will be old enough to get it)

Re:Too good to be true?

[cyn1c77]

Dell gives themselves an out in the small print of their website, but it is still false advertising.

They are offering a product for sale on their website for a specific price and then reneging on it. If you buy something in a store and then the owner realized he made a mistake on the price... it's too late. Dell doesn't feel that they need to be held accountable for mistakes that cost them money, and they don't feel that they need to make sure their website is correct either. That's the problem.

Re:Too good to be true?

[fostware]

Ha, still not quite Champagne Comedy. :P

Re:Too good to be true?

[JWSmythe]

    This frequently varies.

    Years ago, we wanted to build a couple nice database machines. Quad Opteron 848, when they had just been released, running a 64 bit Linux distro. I researched parts, put together my list, and presented it to the bosses. One of the bosses had a hardon for Dell, so we took my proposed configuration and sent it over to a Dell rep. They came back with a 32 bit machine for something like 400% of my price. I then sent him over my list with prices on it and told him that he had to come back with something comparable both hardware and price wise. He came back with something that had 50% of the memory, 25% of the storage, and half the processors (32 bit) for the same price.

    Because we wanted bleeding edge fast, we were out of luck. They couldn't do it for us without bleeding us dry.

    Another time, someone I know wanted a new server. He looked for what Dell was clearing out, and found something not quite so new. It was nice, just not as nice as he could have bought. He saved 25% by buying what Dell was clearing out of their warehouse. But, in doing that, he also bought 2 laptops and 8 workstations at regular price as part of a "package" deal that was suppose to be to his advantage. If I had done everything (except the laptops) I could have saved him a lot of money. The major issue became, he needed it "now", and I would take about a week or two to get the parts in, assembled, and tested.

    For him, he thought it was great, except we were shipping stuff back and forth trying to get the order right for two weeks. He was excited to have their parts warranty. He had a drive fail about 6 months later. It happened Friday afternoon, and we started working with their support. They kept us going until 6pm at which point they said "we can have a replacement to you Monday before 10am". He bought the warranty with the understanding it was a 4 hour turnaround. He was told that was only Monday through Friday, 8am to 5pm. Since it was 6pm, it wouldn't be handled until Monday morning. {sigh}

    For the most part, I use commodity parts, especially in wearing parts like drives. I could have gone to the store and picked up a new drive and had it fixed by Friday evening. I don't know a local vendor for SCSI drives, and he didn't want to spend money on something that was suppose to be fixed under warranty that he spent extra money on.

    I work on Dells, only because companies I've worked with use them. I'm not fond of them. I'm actually usually annoyed. But hey, they're paying the bill, they can buy the replacement parts from Dell.

   

Re:Too good to be true?

[JWSmythe]

I would normally say "it's an Acer", but if you do a little research, you'll find something interesting about WalMart products. Virtually every product in WalMart, is made specifically for WalMart. They are made slightly cheaper so WalMart can lower the final cost and always undercut their competition.

    I found this out with Sony HandCams. One place I worked had about a dozen of them for live web broadcasting (make assumptions, you're probably right). Two broke, so we went to a Sony authorized repair shop. He looked at them, or more specifically at the model, and heard our complaint. He then told us "I can't fix that". He wasn't trying to be difficult, so he explained that this model was a WalMart model. The broken component was something that breaks very quickly. He can't get replacements for it. If it had been another model from another retail outlet, he would have been more than happy to fix it, but it probably wouldn't have broken anyways.

    We had saved $50/ea on them. If I recall correctly even though they were simply sitting on tripods, attached by RCA cable to digitizers, 90% of them had some sort of failure within a year. I took one of the few surviving ones, just because we retired all of them. I left it charging on my desk, and one day it just started opening the tape door on it's own. I could close it, and sometime in the next few days it would just open it like someone hit the eject button.

    If you want something that will survive, don't buy it at WalMart, even if it looks just like the item being sold somewhere else, and only has a very subtle variation on the model number. WalMart makes their money selling crap at a price lower than the other stores can sell their slightly better crap. They know when it breaks, you will probably go back to WalMart and buy another one, blaming the manufacturer, not WalMart business practices.

    Read this story about Snapper discontinuing business with WalMart

    or this Business Week piece on lower quality Walmart products

Re:Too good to be true?

[badasscat]

While I don't doubt that Wal-Mart has products specially made for it, I doubt that's the case with the Acer laptops in question. I have never seen an Acer laptop for sale anywhere (including Wal-Mart) that didn't look exactly the same as Acer laptops sold everywhere else.

And I bought one myself sold by CompUSA. Now, this particular *configuration* that I bought was made only for CompUSA and that may be true at Wal-Mart as well. But the laptop itself was just a regular Acer that just happened to have a particular set of specs.

Long story short, my Acer laptop died after 18 months. The power connector broke, physically broke. Around the same time, the lid cracked at the hinge.

The moral of the story is that Acer laptops are cheap pieces of shit.

Re:Too good to be true?

[badasscat]

You can't get away with that in the U.S. If you advertise something as one price, and some sort of agreement is already made, i.e. you paid for it, it has to be honored.

If you paid for it, yes, then the price must be honored.

However, if you have not yet paid for it, ie. you submitted an order online but have not been charged, then the retailer is under no obligation to honor the price.

This all goes back to the FTC's "mail order rule" which has been in effect since before the internet. This rule was originally intended to specify time periods for shipment, but the side effect of that is that it defines what "order completion" and acceptance are. Basically, once payment is accepted, the order is considered a contract and the retailer has 30 days to ship the goods whether they want to or not. The FTC and the courts have held that this same idea of a "properly completed order" also extends to pricing. In other words, a sales contract is a sales contract, and the point when payment is accepted is the point when the contract is in force.

But until payment is made, the order is not considered properly completed and it can be changed or canceled by either side.

This is one of the main reasons most retailers do not charge your card until your order actually ships. They've turned this into a trust point, a selling point, but they do it to protect themselves against things like typos and inventory mistakes. As long as you're not actually charged, they can take as long as they want to send your order, and they can make any pricing changes they want. You obviously need to agree to any pricing changes, but the choices are to accept or cancel the order; you have no legal leverage to make the retailer honor their original price.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Khyber]

Umm, no. Dell is overpriced just like everyone else.

Almost every one of their systems listed online (even customizable ones) at exact specs I can build myself for 50% of the price they advertise.

Also, my HP Laptop, compared to a Dell laptop with the exact same specs, has one neat feature and costs $300 less than the equivalent Dell - I have the option of upgrading my graphics card if I choose to.

Dell only had that going in their old 9800 Inspiron series, when they had a full-sized AGP slot in the laptop.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Khyber]

Whomever modded you up is dead wrong. I just talked to a pal of mine in the AUS, and if you paid for something at the advertised price - there can be NO RETRACTION. The sale was made, the card or bank account is charged, or cash taken. End of deal. Deliver or face a violation of contract. The ACCC will handle this nonsense if enough people complain.

Re:Too good to be true?

[DinDaddy]

Amazon pretty routinely tells people who have received goods priced incorrectly that they can return it for a full credit or their card will be billed for the difference.

There are websites dealing this practice, and I saw large scale evidence of it on a DVD release a couple years back on an AV forum where dozens of members were bitten by this tactic.

So for them, canceling the order is extended to after you have paid for, and received the item.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Johnno74]

Thats because you brought inspirons. As you said, inspiron is consumer grade. They are the cheapest, nastiest laptops dell can make.

Dell do make professional laptops - try a latitude or a precision. They cost more, they have fewer flashy features, and they are much more solid.

I've still got a P3 latitude that I brought in 2001, its the most reliable computer of any sort I've ever had.

Re:Too good to be true?

[zuperduperman]

I wonder if it replies in reverse? If I stupidly pay twice as much for something as I could get it elsewhere, can I go back and claim the deal was "too good to be true" for the store I bought it from? That would be rather nice!

Re:Too good to be true?

[caitsith01]

Even if they're not liable in contract they may well have breached the Trade Practices Act, which prohibits misleading or deceptive conduct in Trade or Commerce.

Re:Too good to be true?

[caitsith01]

It's called rectification. If your employer can prove that it was the common intention of the parties that the contract actually just be $XX per hour (or whatever it was supposed to be), and that the mistake was the result of a typographical error or similar, then a Court will give effect to the intention not the words of the contract.

Re:Too good to be true?

[Falconhell]

I have boght 20 Dell laptops (Inspirons and Vostros) in the last 3 years.

One I use myself daily, cahnging locations at least 4 times a day.

Only one has failed, backlight would switch off when screen moved, caused by a trapped wire to the Fluro. Fixed that this morning ironically.

That said, the Dells are bigger and heavier than their HP/IBM rivals.

The Latitudes are the better Dells, and the older Precision laptops were pretty good.

Re:Too good to be true?

[mjwx]

And you pay for what you get. All my dells (all laptops, all inspirons, all 3 of them) have died within a year of my buying them, and every month or so after that.

There's your problem. It's consumer grade. Get the Latitude of Precision lines instead, you pay a bit more but its worth it (plus Latitude support support isn't in India, its in Singapore which means you can understand the person you're calling).

Also avoid the XPS series like the plauge, we've had three here and all three have been completely replaced piecemeal due to continual HW failures (waiting for a dell tech to call me today to replace an XPS hard drive).

Re:Too good to be true?

[aussie_a]

But they did change it immediately :P

Re:Too good to be true?

[Vombatus]

And they are genuine "Farkarie Rugs" ...

(Someone will be old enough to get it)

I curse the day I married your sister.

Re:Too good to be true?

[WindShadow]

And what do you do with 10% of a rug?

Re:Too good to be true?

[TeXMaster]

It would if the Dell computer didn't come with windows Vista

Mmmm... this goes well...

[tangent3]

...with the Australian dollar near an all-time low.

Re:Mmmm... this goes well...

[HotFat]

Your 'All-Time' must be a pretty short time. Around 6 years ago it was 20 cents lower than it is now.

Re:Mmmm... this goes well...

[mjwx]

All time low you say?

65-80 US Cents is the accepted norm for the AUD vs the USD.

Ubuntu Offers?

[AndGodSed]

Was this on any machines running Ubuntu?

Btw, what happened to the Dell+Ubuntu offers that I can no longer find on their site?

Or am I looking in the wrong place...

Re:Ubuntu Offers?

[Koiu Lpoi]

I just checked out the Mini 9 the other day, and it very much so has an Ubuntu option. Don't know about anything else though.

Of course, I checked the Japanese site (live here), and while the base computer's the same, the upgrades are all about twice as much as the equivalent US page. Guess I won't be going through Dell, after all, especially after (this) yet another fiasco.

Re:Ubuntu Offers?

[AndGodSed]

Yeah - I found them too. A while back I was browsing though the site and was aiming a bit higher than those that offer Ubuntu as an OS.

Is it just me or do Dell not take their Ubuntu offers seriously?

Re:Ubuntu Offers?

[mjwx]

In Australia, Dell do not offer Ubuntu. http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-9?c=au&cs=audhs1&l=en&s=dhs

In the news at 10....

[darinfp]

Global financial crisis worse than thought

Dell hardware cheap, but there may be some fine print

Paris Hilton shows her bits accidentally

My experience

[Circlotron]

I live in Melbourne, Australia. A well known consumer test magazine here, Choice, said about 20 years ago that an advertised or store-posted price was only "an invitation to enter into a contract of sale" and was not binding on the seller. That said, it is fairly common for most larger shops to give you the item at the advertised price when it is incorrect (i.e low). I once got six pieces of wood from a hardware shop that were marked at $4 each instead of $11 each. They pointed this out to me at the checkout and after checking that the rest of their stock was also marked at this price (not just mine ;-) ) gave it to me at this low price anyway.

Re:My experience

[zblack_eagle]

IANAL

Common Law contract law that advertising something as being for sale is an invitation to treat, which doesn't put any obligation on the seller to provide anything.

In Australia selling stuff generally comes under the Trade Practices Act, or in the cases where the Federal Government cannot legislate, individual state Fair Trading laws.

Re:My experience

[wisty]

INAL, sale of goods laws (which may vary from state to state), and TPA both apply. These laws are very harsh against bait advertising. Also, since it varies by state, Dell might have to fork up in some states.

Re:My experience

[Richard_at_work]

Its called 'invitation to treat', and exists right up until the point at which money is taken, but neither party is obligated to enter into a purchase contract - after that point (money taken), it gets legally more complicated and the 'obviously wrong' defence comes into play.

Re:My experience

[PitaBred]

I've had companies do that, but they usually go change the price right afterwards. I would have walked out if they didn't give me the product at the price (buying stuff takes two parties to agree to the price), but since they did that, they earned a much more regular customer. Service matters.

Re:My experience

[AK Marc]

I live in Melbourne, Australia. A well known consumer test magazine here, Choice, said about 20 years ago that an advertised or store-posted price was only "an invitation to enter into a contract of sale" and was not binding on the seller.

The problem is that with online sales, the sale (a contract) takes place when payment is made. The most obvious point of payment is when the buyer enters in the credit card details and the site displays "order placed" or somesuch. At that point, it is no longer an invitation, it is an executed contract. For one side to back out of an executed contract is harder than simply saying "oops."

Re:My experience

[Khisanth Magus]

Except for the minor fact that most retailers do not(and legally cannot in some places) bill your credit card until such a time as the order has shipped. Until then all you have is a sales contract.

Depends

[cerberusss]

In my opinion, it totally depends on how the company behaves. In the Netherlands, a flat-screen TV was advertised by a mail-order retailer for 100 euros. Many people ordered and the company proceeded to leave the advertisement online for more than a week. Despite that, the judge agreed with the retailer that they didn't need to respect the extremely low price. Later that same retailer made other errors. For example, when you'd order a printer with a PC, the printer would cost, say, 25 euros. When you proceeded to remove the PC from your shopping cart, the printer would still have the reduced price. Same outcome.

Makes me think of a story...

[snicho99]

A little off topic perhaps... but it make's me think of a story a friend told me once:

Hungry Jacks (Australian version of Burger King) once had a promotion going where if you asked for "Two for One" they gave you two Whoppers (a kind of inedible burger) for the price of one. The only catch was that someone at the marketing company forgot to assign an end date to the promo on all the advertising material. Consequently even now - many years later, Hungry Jacks' still has to honor the "Two for One" deal.

Me and a friend called BS on his story, and he was quite insistent that it was real. We were just on our way from one bar to another at the time (a little inebriated perhaps) so we went into a Hungry Jacks store to test his theory. He ordered a Whopper as a "Two for One", and sure enough they gave it to him!

Mind you by the time he got to the front of the queue he had 16 drunk football (australian rules) players chanting "Two for one" so perhaps they just gave it to him to make us leave....

But if it was *genuine* makes you think that maybe us australians are pretty serious about keeping companies honest about their marketing.

Re:Makes me think of a story...

[Enter the Shoggoth]

But if it was *genuine* makes you think that maybe us australians are pretty serious about keeping companies honest about their marketing.

Oh please! Cut the jingoistic crap! We are no better or worse than anyone else when it comes to keeping politicians/companies/marketing/sales droids honest.

Individuals will either stand up for whatever they feel they are entitled to, or they will be obedient little sheeple.

Re:Makes me think of a story...

[PolarBearFire]

You didn't get a good deal, you should've gotten the nickel a burger deal they had back 50 years ago.

Re:Makes me think of a story...

[RockWolf]

We never had nickels here, you uninformed clod.

Not True as per English Contract law

[freedom_india]

As per English Contract Law(which australia must be following), a publicly displayed advertisement for a product/service displaying a price for the same becomes a contract when it is accepted by anyone who pays for the same product/service to the advertiser.
In short, Dell has signed a contract with each one of the paying customers to provide the advertised product at advertised price.
If Dell fails to do so, it is in violation of the applicable contract law and as such the counter-party to the contract may sue Dell for violation and subsequent consequential damages.
The fact that Dell claims it is a mistake is not relevant and is not the customers' responsibility.
All a customer has to do is to swear in front of a magistrate or sign a letter thathe acted in "Good faith" that the advertisement was genuine.
Dell Customers Australia: If you have placed the order, do NOT back out and accept a refund. Write to Dell to fulfill its contract and threaten it with a lawsuit. Am sure 200 lawsuits in 200 courts is not a small matter for Dell.
The law is on your side for a change.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[caluml]

a product/service displaying a price for the same becomes a contract when it is accepted by anyone who pays for the same product/service to the advertiser.

I guess it all hangs on whether Dell accepted the money from the consumers at the time of ordering, or if it was to be debited when the goods shipped.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[sam0737]

What? From what I have learned - Hong Kong law, which is still based on English Contract Law...

Advertisement is not an "offer." (Made by a case in 18xx IIRC).
The case was something like someone saw a product advertisement on newspapers, then go to the store but unfortunately the product went out of stock. The customer sue the store for not able to fulfill the contract, even if the customer can pay to accept it.

The case was held that advertisement does not consider as an offer. It's the customer who "offer" the money then the store "accept" the deal.

So I think what grandparent said is true, if Dell didn't accept the money (by processing the credit card I suppose), it should be considered "accepted" in current understandings. Whether or not the court will make a new case about "automatic processing" does not consider as an "acceptance" is another issue.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[Anonymous Coward]

Your information is out of date.

A short time ago the law was changed to allow any retail service the right to refuse service for any reason without notice. Dell are within their rights to cancel these orders as the contracts are only completed when the product is dispatched and the funds are debited from the customer.

In all fairness my feeling is that Dell should honour these orders as a happy customer is a customer that returns.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[nosferatu1001]

All that needs to have happened is for Dell to have accepted "consideration" - in other words, a promise and means to pay, whether now or later. If they did so, which I imagine they did, then there will likley be a contract in force at that point.

55% off would NOT normally be considered unreasonable or an "obviuous" mistake - such as something priced at £0.02 instead of £200

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[csrster]

Do you mean it becomes a contract when the payment is accepted by the advertiser? If so, I wonder what constitutes "accepting payment" in an electronic transaction. Is there relevant case law?

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[Kjella]

I guess it all hangs on whether Dell accepted the money from the consumers at the time of ordering, or if it was to be debited when the goods shipped.

I think of the statement you quoted as "When is a contract established, if no contract is written?" If you signed a contract, it's damn well a contract even if noone's paid yet. In this sense, most e-tailers walk a very thin line with "order confirmation". It contains the quantity and location of goods to be shipped, costs with shipping and handling, usually estimated delivery time and very much looks like a contract to me. It is certainly very different from merely acknowledging that a contract offer has been recieved like in a bid or negotiation process. You can bet they see it as an entered contract and will demand compensation if you later refuse to pay too. Is there any reason why you shouldn't treat it that way too?

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[freedom_india]

A Public advt is an open offer that becomes a contract once accepted by the other party.
Examples abound for it like when an Englishman offered BP400 for his wallet and then demurred when it was found by someone.
The court ordered this joker to pay the amount as offered.
A promise is not a contract unless its for money on demand.
An offer becomes a contract on acceptance.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[AK Marc]

I guess it all hangs on whether Dell accepted the money from the consumers at the time of ordering, or if it was to be debited when the goods shipped.

I would argue that taking the credit card number is taking the money. When they process it, when they batch their transactions, when they make a bank run to deposit if someone pays cash is irrelevant. The consumer gave the means of payment at the time the order was "accepted" or "processed" or whatever. There is no more action by the consumer after that point for a "successful" sale, so that is the point at which the contract is entered. If there was a corporate policy to contact the customer after and not actually place the order unless the customer agreed that the previous web-based information was correct, then I could see an argument that there is some other point where the contract begins. But to have someone "pay" with their credit card and have the actual time of payment manipulated by the recipient in order to minimize the rights of the buyer seems absurd and something that can't be justified.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[freedom_india]

An advertisement to sell something at a displayed price (it can also be reward for finding something), is an open offer. For that matter so is are contracts: An offer to do an [legal] action for consideration in return. You signify acceptance to that offer by paying the displayed value/doing a specific action. Once done, it becomes a contract.
In this case, if Dell had debited your credit card for the said amount, then you have a contract and Dell is obligated to provide the same.
If Dell had NOT debited your card, you STILL have a valid contract because you offered Dell the necessary money, but they refused to take cognizance of the same. The first action is close-and-shut case in a court. Dell would be ordered to fulfill the contract or face dissolution (if you force the court).
The second would involve you proving that Dell deliberately welshed out of a contract.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[freedom_india]

Read about "In the U.S., the general rule is that in "case of doubt, an offer is interpreted as inviting the offeree to accept either by promising to perform what the offer requests or by rendering the performance, as the offeree chooses" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlill_v._Carbolic_Smoke_Ball_Company/
And please, please know the law before opening your mouth anonymous coward.

Re:Not True as per English Contract law

[sam0737]

Examples abound for it like when an Englishman offered BP400 for his wallet and then demurred when it was found by someone.

What you said is another story, which is also true.

What I said is that there is definitely another case made for newspaper advertisement, and the price tag on the store shelf - which says they are not "offer".

Sometimes right, sometimes wrong..

[Orphaze]

I think whether or not this is wrong depends entirely on whether or not money as changed hands at the time the error is noticed.

For instance, we would not consider a car dealership to be contractually bound to sell cars for $3000 a piece if a typo caused a zero to be left off the price in an advertisement. An advertisement or coupon simply does not constitute a contract.

In that same vein, I would argue that making an internet purchase is not a contract as well, or rather, at least not initially. Giving a company your credit information and clicking "Purchase" is not the same as handing another person cash and shaking hands, as that credit information must first be authorized and processed before money is actually transferred. Until that is done, the transaction (and hence, contract) has not been completed, and you the consumer aren't entitled to anything. Consequently, if an error is found at this stage, I see nothing wrong with a company cancelling the order in question.

If money is transferred, that is a whole different ball of wax. The deal is then done, and a business should be held to whatever price they stated. At that point they have taken your money, depriving you the use of it for anything else, and it is not acceptable for them to cancel the order simply because of their incompetence, anymore than they can call you up a month later and demand more money for an item you already purchased.

Re:Sometimes right, sometimes wrong..

[Kneo24]

Generally speaking, CC transactions tend to go through pretty fast online, unless it's the weekend. Then for whatever reason it's a little slower. So it virtually is like handing your money over upon the purchase.

Re:Sometimes right, sometimes wrong..

[Anonymous Coward]

For instance, we would not consider a car dealership to be contractually bound to sell cars for $3000 a piece if a typo caused a zero to be left off the price in an advertisement. An advertisement or coupon simply does not constitute a contract.

It should still attract a penalty, though, just like any other misleading or incorrect information in an advertisement.

Re:Sometimes right, sometimes wrong..

[nosferatu1001]

Handing over your CC details, and the website accepting them, is consideration and would normally constitute completion of a contract.

this is exactly the same as handing a CC instore, where not all are authorised there and then - it is still consideration for the goods, which is all the is sufficient. duration is not considered in this - otherwise buy now pay later would not give a contract untill the "pay later" part!

Re:Sometimes right, sometimes wrong..

[Renraku]

All the localities want their local shops to sell rather than to lose customers to online shops.

Online shops have many advantages, one being not having to pay cashiers. Cashiers also fill the role of 'sanity check' on prices. For example if your plasma TV scans at $1, they're probably going to get a manager.

A manager who will apologize, and maybe offer you a discount for the mistake but not down to $1.

Online shops don't have this. Its automated. They should hold them to it. If they don't want to have to honor the prices, they should have a sanity check on them like cashiers do. Or, perhaps, they should pay some cashiers?

$0.00 not binding according to our Lawyer.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once we advertised a service, we created the ad before we decided on the price. Long story short, it ended up being advertised as $0.00. Our lawyer informed that the advert was not binding. IANAL and YMMV ofcourse.

English law is revelant how?

[svunt]

Why on Earth must Australia be following English Contract Law? We've had our own set of statutes for quite some time now.

Re:English law is revelant how?

[jabuzz]

They might not, but this follows out of English Common law, which all most all ex. empire countries use (New Zealand being the obviously different one).

Heck even the USA follows English Common law and they left some 230+ years ago in a revolution.

It is not an unreasonable assumption to make.

Re:English law is revelant how?

[Detritus]

Here in Maryland, our legal system is based on the English common law, as it existed on the 4th of July, 1776. Says so right in the state constitution. A local lawyer got the bright idea of making a motion to decide a case by "trial by combat", which was still part of English common law in 1776. Unfortunately, he chickened out. I would have liked to have seen the judge's reaction to the motion.

Re:English law is revelant how?

[tg123]

English Law is the Legal system Australia uses . As Australia was at one time a colony of England we adopted there legal system. If you were in say France you would use French law. (thank your lucky stars if your not - no jury system there. If your are I feel sorry for you.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_France

Attn: kdawson - please do your job

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

Dell backs down over drive pricing
By Jesse Hogan
August 18, 2005 - 4:24PM

WTF?!?

Who thinks that an article that is over 3 years old is "News for Nerds, Stuff That Matters"?

Story Poorly Worded, but 2nd link is 2008

[spaceturtle]

Dell has been caught red-faced: 2005
... apologized ... : 2008

Re:Story Poorly Worded, but 2nd link is 2008

[triffid_98]

Au residents still interested in 55% off MSRP on a 3 year old laptop: 0

Dell has been caught red-faced: 2005

... apologized ... : 2008

Latitude D-Series

[Danzigism]

This goes as a warning for those interested in the old Latitude D-series notebooks. Great machines, and Dell says they're still being sold on their website. Well, I ordered one for a client about 3 weeks ago, and was just informed last week that they are being discontinued and the particular model I ordered will not be arriving. I love how you have to wait to the last minute to find out this information. More inventory control needs to be done on their part. As a premier partner, I have slowly and surely gotten more pissed at Dell as of late. I sell their computers because of their excellent NBD warranties with prosupport. but god damn this kind of simple shit has been pissing me off.

Dell Makes Lots Of "Mistakes"

[darkmeridian]

One day, I was window shopping Dell's web site for a Mini 9 (Inspiron 910), setting up a tricked-out system. I saw that there was a $250 off coupon that was applied to that system. I immediately bought the system, stopping only to make sure that I put in all the features. I expected the order to be canceled because the coupon was for a Studio laptop and this was a Inspiron netbook. Well, the order got canceled, but because the Dell Preferred Account had issues. I called and placed the order again using my Amex over the phone, and the guy was perfectly content to sell me the system for less than half price. The system just shipped yesterday (on Sunday?!) and should be here by this Thursday.

Was this a mistake, or a "mistake"?

Re:Dell Makes Lots Of "Mistakes"

[nawcom]

One day, I was window shopping Dell's web site for a Mini 9 (Inspiron 910), setting up a tricked-out system. Was this a mistake, or a "mistake"?

It's a mistake to expect a "tricked-out system" from an Inspiron 910. Just my opinion. :-P

Is 55% off unrealistic?

[krischik]

Well in Germany we have the same law but it must be an obvious and honest mistake like a moved decimal point or reversed digits.

i.E. advertising a 55% off when you meant a 5.5% off. Or â150 you meant â1500 (that would be a 90% discount).

Mind you, with the current "SALE - SALE" Zeitgeist I don't think 55% off is unrealistic and I think in Germany and Switzerland Dell would have to bite the bullet here.

Martin

This happened in Chile, twice this year

[diethelm]

This has happened here in Chile twice during 2008. In both cases Dell backed out of all sales, to great outrage. The second time it happened, I thought it was rather fishy; now that I see the same thing going on in Australia, it is starting to look like a corporate "marketing" policy.

Re:This happened in Chile, twice this year

[sysut1]

Had a similar problem with Dell France, a few months ago. Got a nice price for 10 servers ordered online. When my credit card was billed, the price was 25% higher. I contacted my account manager who first tried to deny the incident, then offered a rebate on my next order, and finally assured me that he was on the case and that I'll soon see my money again. Never got any news again, so my customers are not to see any dell computer in their systems in any predictable future...

Slashdot should allow posts to be marked as dups.

[spaceturtle]

This has already been pointed out half an hour ago. FYI, the second link is 2008.

Dell give away too good deals all the time...

[Stu101]

Here in the uk, there is a certain website that is red hot on picking up what are obvious price mixups (moneysavingexpert.com). I once got a Dell 2400 for less than 30% of the real price. Also picked up a celeron for less than £100 all in to make a little profit. They usually honour the screwups, but the current climate must be biting hard for them to not honour it. They may well cave as the adverse publicity is worth more than a few machines at cost(ish).

Having said that, if you spend big, there is nothing dell won't give you. Just the other day Dell gave us a $50,000 blade setup for free, on the hope we would buy some more high spec blades of em (we are totally a HP shop server wise, but desktop is a different story)

I should be the CEO of a large company

[PolarBearFire]

How hard is it to hire a couple of interns to go through every price online every day to see if they're reasonable? Logically you can't force a company to make a money losing deal, no matter how wrong they were, just like nobody can force you to sell your house for a dollar. But a multi-billion dollar company should know better.

Re:seen this in sweden as well

[cerberusss]

I'd then proceed to order it, and see what happens.

i got better deal

[BountyX]

This happened to me on a $20,000 purchase from dell. They ended up sending me a free NAS and two free laptops. They also let me keep the advertised price of my purchase due to a significant delay processing the order (it was shipped then recalled). Not too shabby.

Happened to me in the states too.

[lbgator]

I wish I had saved my chat log. I had an very frustrating chat with a Dell sales associate. The price shown online was $99 for a Mini9 (at this site). Too good to be true, I know, but there it was. The site wouldn't let me check out so I opened a chat window. The person helping me couldn't confirm or deny the price and promised to call or email soon. This is what I got:

we apologize for the misinformation we are currently having error on the website. but ill make sure to let someone call you if things clear up. just log backin online to check if its still the price but i will be callig you when this is already cleared.

No further attempts to contact me. Good to see a professional interface with the customer, huh?

Dell desktops

[phorm]

Dell desktops, on the other hand, I've never been disappointed by.

Try adding a standard consumer component to them. Add a floppy/optical driev? Pick one up from the store and ... *BZZT* nope. The mounting screws are inverted in such a manner that you need the specific Dell drive (at 3-4x the price) to fit your computer. Even if the holes were made (a few mins with a power drill), they still wouldn't fit through the damn Dell-specific front bezel half the time

Re:Dell desktops

[ross.w]

Not only that, despite being 3-4x the price, they're still actually the same cheap LG or Samsung drive that you can buy elsewhere, just with the Dell specific mounting. I always get White box systems and have never had a significant problem, but then, I notice when for example, a fan stops turning due to seized bearings and I know how to fix it. People who don't understand the innards of their PC (unlike most Slashdotters) wouldn't notice until their PC started randomly rebooting due to overheating. And they wouldn't understand why - they just call Dell and get them to replace whatever needs replacing. Such people are best served by the no questions asked warranty that Dell provides and that is what you are paying for. Meanwhile I will continue to happily build my own out of parts bought on eBay and pocket the difference.

Re:Dell desktops

[Johnno74]

Amen to that. I *hate* dell desktops. I brought a cheap one years ago, then went to upgrade the video card and I found it didn't even have an AGP slot.

The IDE ribbon cable didn't even have a slave connector.

I'm a big fan of the inspiron and precision laptops though. Very solid machines.

Their inspirons are cheap crap tho

On Purpose

[fireheadca]

You would think it was an error, but no, this is a method to create buzz and potentially sell other prducts. So if you ordered the deal with lets say, a gaming keyboard and mouse, each would be a separate order. You can cancel your original but you would still recieve the gaming kb/mouse.

--
On Porpoise is a different matter.

Walmart's custom products...

[Firethorn]

I have never seen an Acer laptop for sale anywhere (including Wal-Mart) that didn't look exactly the same as Acer laptops sold everywhere else.

Well, that's the thing. It looks the same. Can you tell whether they used solid state or electrolitic caps? 800mhz memory or 600mhz? A CPU fan that cost them $1.99 or $.99?

Long story short, my Acer laptop died after 18 months. The power connector broke, physically broke. Around the same time, the lid cracked at the hinge.

That's worse than my e-machine. ;) The plastic's cracked around the hinge, but that's merely cosmetic. Otherwise it's still solid. Had loads of problems with the HP machine that preceded it - actually ended up opening it to resolder the power connector.

The moral of the story is that Acer laptops are cheap pieces of shit.

I'll take your word on it. I guess 'You get what you pay for' applies here. Always got to be careful because companies WILL sell you at any price you're willing to pay, without any increase in quality as well.

BTW, those of you complaining about batteries that have half the life after a couple years - degredation of the battery is because of the chemistry. LiIon loses capacity over time & charging, not just primarily charging. Always try to get a freshly manufactured cell. Some newer chemistries experience this less; but hold less power initially. They're looking to put them into hybrid cars more than laptops. The whole 3 year average lifespan vs 5-10 years for a car.

You must be new here....

[Em Ellel]

Its a Silly Slashdot Story time...

Around here we praise Linux, disagree on Apple and bash Dell. Its the way things are. Don't let facts get in the way of a good bashing...

For what its worth, the first link in story refers to the original time this happened (I assume in '05) - while the current mistake is what the story is about and is referred to as "yet another pricing mistake".

-Em

Laws? What about goodwill?

[dpbsmith]

My mom worked in retail during the 1930s and 40s, eventually rising to the position of buyer in Bloomingdale's. She said that retailers were not legally bound to honor misprints, but that the policy of Bloomingdale's (and its competitors) was to honor them, without question, because they would rather take a one-time loss on a single item than lose a customer.

This is not about the law, this is about decency and keeping promises and doing the right thing by customers.

I know that there is currently a management fad to try to identify "bad" (i.e. lower-profit) customers, and deliberately annoy them in hope of losing them. As the bad economic times start to bite in, I think they will find that treating customers as easily-replaced disposables is not a good idea.

Re:Laws? What about goodwill?

[Geminii]

Surely profit is still profit?

I could see if a company wanted to identify consumers whose interactions actually resulted in a net loss to the company, but if Joe Blow, at the end of the day, makes me a dollar after all my time, effort and costs, that's one more dollar than I had before. Sure, he might not get the red-carpet treatment if it's a choice between him and the customer who makes me $10,000, but I'm not necessarily going to want to dump him either.