Slashdot Mirror


Why Developers Are Switching To Macs

snydeq writes "Programmers are finding themselves increasingly drawn to the Mac as a development platform, in large part due to Apple's decision to move to Intel chips and to embrace virtualization of other OSes, which has turned Mac OS X into a flexible tool for development, InfoWorld reports. The explosion of interest in smartphone development is helping the trend, with iPhone development lock-in to the Mac environment the chief motivating factor for Apple as a platform of choice for mobile development. Yet for many, the Mac remains sluggish and poorly tuned for development, with developers citing its virtual memory system's poor performance in paging data in and out of memory and likening use of the default-network file system, AFS, to engaging oneself with 'some kind of passive-aggressive torture.' What remains unclear is whether Apple will lend an ear to this new wave of Mac-based development or continue to develop products that lock out uses programmers expect."

25 of 771 comments (clear)

  1. Strange Complaints by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yet for many, the Mac remains sluggish and poorly tuned for development, with developers citing its virtual memory system's poor performance in paging data in and out of memory

    As opposed to the Windows paging system? Has the author used a Windows OS lately? Swapping is a *bleeping* killer! Especially when you have more than enough memory not to swap. :-/

    likening use of the default-network file system, AFS, to engaging oneself with 'some kind of passive-aggressive torture.

    So don't use it. Macs support CIFS/SMB pretty darn well these days. I keep hoping that someone will come up with a better replacement, but CIFS/SMB will continue to work until that day comes.

    1. Re:Strange Complaints by jo_ham · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I was going to weigh in on this, but maybe I'm the anti-first-post guy, there were no comments when I came back from the article and I was trying to compose my thoughts.

      I don't think there's anywhere to go with this other than a biased writer grudgingly writing a story about a platform he hates because he needs to pay the bills this month.

      The article makes me want to go through it with the "wikipedia editing brush" like a schoolmaster grading the entries that appear on the site:

      "Yet for many [who?], the Mac remains sluggish and poorly tuned for development [citation?].."

      Move along, nothing to see here folks.

    2. Re:Strange Complaints by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only because you've never used it at scale (or probably not OSX as a NFS server either). Their NFS performance isn't that hot and I would strongly advise against using OSX as a mission critical NFS server. I'll just leave my comments at that.

    3. Re:Strange Complaints by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's Unix-ish. Try compiling X11 (or any of hundreds of other POSIX compliant software packages) from source on a Mac. I'll wait.

      That depends on how you define Unix. Linux is Unix-ish. I consider any OS that is certified to be UNIX 03 to be Unix. And why compile? Maybe I'm lazy, but I don't feel like doing any unnecessary steps. Just install it from the OS CD; It is not installed by default. Compiling it to me is like compiling a kernel. Sure, I could try to do that, but in the end, I did a lot of work that I may need to do. As for POSIX compliant software, there will be some that don't run on OS X just like there are some that don't run on Solaris, IRIX, etc. Now if you could provide an example, someone could probably help you fix it.

      It's capable of running its own proprietary OS that is specifically designed to not run on any otherwise capable hardware...That would be like Halliburton putting sugar in all its petroleum products and designing a car that runs on sugar-gas, calling it a "feature".

      Wait a minute, proprietary OS on specifically designed platform? Haven't you just described Unix? Only recently has Sun opened Solaris to non-Sun hardware. IBM has never released AIX for anything but their own servers. So is OS X Unix or not because you have just contradicted yourself.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    4. Re:Strange Complaints by element-o.p. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's Unix-ish. Try compiling X11 (or any of hundreds of other POSIX compliant software packages) from source on a Mac. I'll wait.

      Installing X11 from source on any *nix is painful.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    5. Re:Strange Complaints by RocketRabbit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't live in a Windows-centric world. I elect to opt out of that boneheaded mess.

    6. Re:Strange Complaints by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Yet for many [who?], the Mac remains sluggish and poorly tuned for development [citation?].."

      who? Me, for one.

      citation? I agree with that assessment. Mac's are sluggish. There are plenty of theories as to why, from the threading model it uses, to the woeful inadequacies of 'Finder'. Frankly, my gut is that its just the desktop environment and finder itself that suck. Because when you look at benchmarks of optimized applications and servers or big tasks like video encoding etc, OSX tends to hold up just fine... but yet I find every mac I've ever used has always been 'sluggish' to actually use. Its the little things like opening a program, resizing a window, navigating the file system, always feel a bit sluggish... or I'll see the dreaded pinwheel come up and prevent me from doing anything at all time and again for seconds on end.

      There are non-'performance' related mac-ism idiocies too... like having a global menu bar instead of a per 'application menu'. (seriously, with large dual monitors, its pretty retarded when you have a 2x2" window down in the bottom right of the 2nd monitor, and you have to go to the TOP of the OTHER monitor, to access its disembodied file menu. It was fine on a sinle 15" or 17" screen... but its just demented on dual 24" displays. Basic HCI defect at this point, imo.

      There are a lot of things OSX does REALLY well. But at the same time the rigidity of the platform REALLY can get under the skin of a Linux or even Windows guy who wants to be able to do things a certain (non-Apple) way.

    7. Re:Strange Complaints by countach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "You get the app, with no window"

      Right, because an app != a window. What if you alt-tabbed to Safari so you could open a NEW window? It would be damned annoying to have some other window pop up.

      "On some Apple made apps closing the main windows does not close the app, on others (still made by apple) it does."

      Right, and there is a good reason for which one is which. Your point is?

      "I Spend more time in my day fighting the mac interface than I do getting productive work done."

      What a lot of nonsense.

      "If you install FileMaker server on OSX Server it will overwrite your php.ini file with it's own idea of the settings you need."

      And that's Apple's fault I suppose?

    8. Re:Strange Complaints by EvilIdler · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Windows only sometimes closing an app? If it's a document-based application, of course it leaves the app running! That's how it is supposed to work. Preferences is not, so it's OK to quit. It only ever has one instance of its window.

      Maximise adjusts the window to allow the contents to fit. I hate that too.

      Minimise puts it in the dock. If you're on a Mac, you use cmd-h to hide all of an app's windows, rather than individually minimising each.

      Every OS has a different interface. Learn it :)

      Filemaker sounds like seriously bad engineering. Makes me want to slap it. I'm glad I don't need it. Have you tried reporting it as a bug?

    9. Re:Strange Complaints by CAIMLAS · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's Unix-ish. Try compiling X11 (or any of hundreds of other POSIX compliant software packages) from source on a Mac. I'll wait.

      Seriously?

      Have you tried compiling X11 (let's call it Xorg) on Linux, BSD, or any other architectures of late? HEADACHE.

      There's a reason why essential and commonly used software often comes as a binary package for Linux, *BSD, and yes, OS X. Especially if it's a PITA to build.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    10. Re:Strange Complaints by protohiro1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would say that os x is not the right os for a server in general.

      --
      Sig removed because it was obnoxious
    11. Re:Strange Complaints by LaskoVortex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I couldn't reproduce this. Which app?

      Because I couldn't do it you must be lying. Glad you're not my tech support guy. Seriously, if I came back at my boss (or client) and said this, I'd be out on my arse, so top marks in customer service.

      "Which app?" means "which application?" What I mean to say is which program does this? I'm curious to know. Macs have a lot of quirks. I don't use Spaces because it sucks hard with quirks, so I'm not going to argue with you about the possibility of quirks. In fact, if I could reproduce what you are saying, I'd have fun demonstrating the behavior to my friend who thinks that macs are "just toys". Never mind that my mac mini (aka "The Doorstop") can run circles around his AMD fedora box.

      But now that you have copped a defensive attitude, I'm wondering if you aren't just making this stuff up. I actually believed you for a while there. Then I realized that you don't alt-tab through apps in OS X, you command-tab through them--bullshit flag #1. Also, the behavior you mention is reminiscent of something I've observed in windows, where you can minimize a window and not get it back easily. The application just sits in the task bar but has no windows--you can't even "maximize" them into existence. Bullshit flag #2. Also a google for Traffic Office manager os x yields no identifiable results. Bigtime bullshit flag #3. Yup, only *now* that I've had time to contemplate it, I know you are bullshitting. Good try.

      The question is whether you think your trollish bullshit is actually amusing, because if there were a plonk file for slashdot, I'd put you right in it.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    12. Re:Strange Complaints by Malekin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "On some Apple made apps closing the main windows does not close the app, on others (still made by apple) it does."

      Right, and there is a good reason for which one is which. Your point is?

      Could you please explain to me the good reasons? Mail, iTunes and iCal don't quit when you close their main window even though these are basically single-window applications. iPhoto, Disk Utility and Calculator do.

      Seriously, I'd like to know. I've been using Apple computers since before there was the Macintosh and the logic of it remains utterly opaque to me.

      Maybe you can then explain to me why when you click on the controls of an application in the background, three different things can happen: with iTunes the controls work but the application stays in the background; with Quicktime Player the controls work and the application pops to the front and with iCal the application pops to the front but doesn't register the action.

  2. It is a good middle ground. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OS X is really a good middle ground between Windows and Linux. OS X supports many of the Windows Protocols (a lot better then linux in some ways) as well there is a better selection of high quality closed source applications, then linux has. However being Unix based it it is more stable then Windows and less prone to viruses and other malware. Then combined with virtualization you can run Linux OS X and Windows all at the same time for cross testing your code.

    It has a clean interface and performs well. You are not fussing with simple stuff. all in all it is good for development. (And the Apple keyboards have extended function keys that makes compatibility with old Vax systems much nicer too)

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  3. Macs are UNIX 03 by Toe,+The · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You would think that the fact that OS X is UNIX 03 certified might be of some interest to developers as well.

    Sure, maybe not as much as the reasons stated above, but... it is worth mentioning. And just the fact that it is any flavor of Unix-like OS is attractive to many.

  4. Re:innovative by PC+and+Sony+Fanboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    once again macs seem to be innovating, the dual gpu thing

    You mean the severely limited, non SLI-hydra-whatever GPU thing that requires a restart/logon-off cycle just to switch?

    That thing was actually released on a few toshiba laptops (and sony laptops?) long before el-jobso did his magic.

    Of course, the (software) inflexibility of that configuration is actually a feature, according to apple. So, I digress.

  5. its the community that matters by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have spent the last 8 years writing visual basic applications in Windows
    At Christmas last year I got myself a Nokia internet tablet - it runs Maemo Linux.

    Surprisingly now, 11 months later I am comfortable back in C, have a nice little library and *know* I have found a better path.

    Its been a kind of torture as well, everything was new and sometimes finding information is a brutal experience.
    If it hadn't been for the great community around maemo.org I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have.

    It was this community element which was missing with other devices and systems when I was looking around.

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
  6. Apple needs a mini tower not a over priced mini la by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple needs a mini tower not a over priced mini laptop with out a screen in a small box.

    The mac pro is nice but $2300 and only a $30-$50 video card?

    AIO also are not that good.

    Where is the mini tower that can do dual display?

  7. Re:The poor performance may get you down by PFI_Optix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a PC fanboy for 20+ years, I have to say...when the games I play work natively on Mac, I'm switching.

    Yes, I know I can buy a Mac now, buy Windows, and dual boot. But I don't want to do that, and I don't want to spend $100 on Windows when I just dropped $400 more than I'd pay for a Windows system to begin with.

    I've priced it: comparable hardware with OS, the Macbook that meets my specifications is $400 more than the Dell equivalent. I can't justify spending $500 to do exactly what I do now. If I'm going to switch, it's a complete switch or not at all.

    --
    120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
  8. maybe in USA by papabob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    not worldwide. Maybe I shock you, but outside the US apple is a niche market that its only used for graphics design- you know, a heritage of the 80s. In the old Europe you would find much more projects for linux than for OSX (and both are a minimal percentage of the total projects, because everyone still use some version of Windows). Even the ipod is a rare avis in the mp3 market. Of course Apple started an agressive campaing to catch the academic world few years ago, financing laptops for teachers and student, but it's too early to move the trend.

    So, no. I work in a mid-size software factory and I can assure you developers aren't going anywhere.

  9. Re:Apple needs a mini tower not a over priced mini by sa666_666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You may 'sigh' yet again, but the reason this keeps popping up is because it's a valid criticism that hasn't yet been addressed. Perhaps it's true that Apple wouldn't make as much money in that particular market; most people don't care! They just want a certain product at a certain price point, and Apple isn't delivering it. Sigh'ing that someone else is complaining about this oversight won't make the problem go away. Apple systems in general are either too underpowered or too expensive. There's no middle ground, and they're losing a lot of business because of it.

  10. Re:Nice platform, but... by spinkham · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is one of the major issues that keeps me on Linux.
    Despite the fact you can get almost anything to run on OS X eventually, for most software it's much much harder to get up to date software versions then "apt-get install fizzbuzz" on Ubuntu or debian testing.

    For my needs, Ubuntu is much closer to the "just works" ideal then OS X.

    --
    Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
  11. Re:The poor performance may get you down by kwerle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On the downside, running PC games on the 360 isn't all that pleasant. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion *feels* like a port of a PC game: here's where you'd use a mouse. And here. And here. And here is where a keyboard would be really handy. And here.

    I'm all for gaming on the 360 - and maybe it's just adventure games that suffer (or maybe suffer most). But there is still a place for a crap PC box for game playing.

  12. Simple... They aren't by Kairos21 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The explosion of interest in smartphone development is helping the trend, with iPhone development lock-in to the Mac environment the chief motivating factor for Apple as a platform of choice for mobile development."

    This is why Apple is retarded. They miss out on developers by restricting the platform/IDE and not supporting Java or Mono. Then they place absurd restrictions on iPhone applications. Anyone who is thinking of getting a mac just so they can develop on the iPhone should ask themselves this question.

    WHY SHOULD I SWITCH PLATFORMS IF APPLE CAN LOCK DOWN MY iPHONE APP WITHOUT REASON!!!

  13. Im a developer, working with numerous developers by unity100 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    and none of us seem to have received this shitty memo, or even heard of it.

    this article is absurd out of the scales. just check how belong sentences compare to each other :

    "scientists now agree that evolution does not exist", as voiced by various creationist propaganda sources

    and

    "Programmers are finding themselves increasingly drawn to the Mac as a development platform", as voiced by the shitty article we are being made read. in its summary at least ...