Should You Get Paid While Your Computer Boots?

An anonymous reader notes a posting up at a law blog with the provocative title Does Your Boss Have to Pay You While You Wait for Vista to Boot Up?. (Provocative because Vista doesn't boot more slowly than anything else, necessarily, as one commenter points out.) The National Law Journal article behind the post requires subscription. Quoting: "Lawyers are noting a new type of lawsuit, in which employees are suing over time spent booting [up] their computers. ... During the past year, several companies, including AT&T Inc., UnitedHealth Group Inc. and Cigna Corp., have been hit with lawsuits in which employees claimed that they were not paid for the 15- to 30-minute task of booting their computers at the start of each day and logging out at the end. Add those minutes up over a week, and hourly employees are losing some serious pay, argues plaintiffs' lawyer Mark Thierman, a Las Vegas solo practitioner who has filed a handful of computer-booting lawsuits in recent years. ... [A] management-side attorney... who is defending a half-dozen employers in computer-booting lawsuits... believes that, in most cases, computer booting does not warrant being called work."

Comments

Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do people who work at the local McDonalds get paid for preparing the restaurant to open at the beginning of each business day and for closing up shop at the end? I sure hope so.

This is the exact same situation. If the employers don't like it, they can pay someone to set up a script to automatically boot the computer half an hour before the start of the business day. I'm sure they can justify the cost once the cost is actually there.

Re:Yes.

[j-cloth]

Actually, the service industry is a bad example. I worked at a convenience store for a summer and my wife worked at a coffee shop for a while. Both of us stopped getting paid when the doors were locked despite the fact that there was still cleanup to be done. The theory was that we were supposed to be cleaning as the shift was winding down, but time and customers rarely allowed for that. Crappy summer jobs aren't necessarily comparable to career jobs, however (unless you're unfortunate enough to have a crappy service job as your career) because both of us had the option to leave and take better jobs where we were paid fairly.

Re:Yes.

[atrus]

They probably "punch in" on their PC, which is an interesting ploy by the employer. But I agree. The second you're in the door or at your desk, the clock has started. You are "at work".

Re:Yes.

[SmlFreshwaterBuffalo]

Many corporations are now utilizing virtual time clock software, requiring hourly employees to clock in via their PC. Couple that with a hypothetical policy of having to shut down PCs overnight to save power, and presto, employees don't get paid for booting.

Re:Yes.

[zakezuke]

Actually, the service industry is a bad example. I worked at a convenience store for a summer and my wife worked at a coffee shop for a while. Both of us stopped getting paid when the doors were locked despite the fact that there was still cleanup to be done. The theory was that we were supposed to be cleaning as the shift was winding down, but time and customers rarely allowed for that. Crappy summer jobs aren't necessarily comparable to career jobs, however (unless you're unfortunate enough to have a crappy service job as your career) because both of us had the option to leave and take better jobs where we were paid fairly.

Just because it happens in practice doesn't make it legal. IANAL but a good rule of thumb is when you arrive at work, and are ready to work, you get paid. Over a decade ago I did the summer job thing, dishwasher, food service, even some light industrial. All tried to play the game of stiffing pay. Light industrial for example it's common to not pay people for the first hour, just have them wait around until other people show up. Food service, if it's sluggish they would prefer you hang out and drink coffee before getting paid. You got out of bed, you got there ontime, you're working. It doesn't matter if they have nothing for you to do, if you can't go home, you're at work. It often takes a few phone calls to the department of labor to verify this.

 

Re:Yes.

[teh moges]

Perhaps you should try booting a computer in a corporate environment, where there is much more for the computer to do and check before the computer is actually booted in. That said, I've never seen it take 30 minutes, but I have seen it take more then 15.

To add to the conversation, if at desk, then getting paid. If the time clock is running on the computer, don't power down the computer to ensure you are paid for the time you are there. If policy prohibits that, then they need to change their time clock methods.

Re:Yes.

[pcolaman]

If you got injured while cleaning up presumably off the clock but on premises, how do you think an injury lawsuit would end? Probably with a quick settlement to avoid the issue of illegal labor practices. You were hosed, pure and simple.

Re:Yes.

[BrainInAJar]

When I worked for a chain coffee joint, We arrived to our shift, punched in, and we were paid. If we opened, we got there at 4:30am and started getting paid, even though we opened at 5 and the first 10 or 15 mins of the shift involved dumping hot water out of urns and staring in to space trying to figure out where we were and why the clock had such a low number on it. Closing, we kicked everyone out at 11, and locked the doors. Then we cleaned until 11:45 when we stopped getting paid. If anything was left to be done, we left a note, and went home.

This ought to be pretty typical even ( especially ) of shitty low-wage jobs. Now I work salary so I roll in when I feel like it, go home when I feel like it, if I feel like working a 4 day x 9 hour week I can, and so long as my assigned tasks get done I continue to get paid.

If your situation resembles neither of these either you're on the dole, or you're getting screwed by your employer and should file a complaint or unionize.

Don't let your boss fuck you, that's anti-capitalist. Fuck back.

Re:Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

or if you wanna be a super huge gaping asshole, you can murder their children and bask in the lamentation of their mothers.

Re:Yes.

[The FNP]

At my college the roaming profiles would occasionally get rather large and we would have people who had to wait 20-40 minutes to log in. Yes, just to log in, not even to boot the PC and have it connect to the domain, etc.

While this is not optimal, and part of my job was to fix that delay, I will say that someone out there has time enough for two cups of coffee in the morning waiting to boot their machines, and if they have an electronic time clock system, that person's wages are definitely being illegally affected by that.

--The FNP

Re:Yes.

[Hadlock]

WTF dude you aren't slaves. Your employer owes you backpay. Don't let anyone fuck with you when it comes to your paycheck. The third option is to sue him for back pay when you leave. If it's overtime he owes you so much the better. Probably best to let a lawyer do it for the cost of your backpay, if for nothing else than to teach him a lesson.

Re:Yes.

[baboo_jackal]

Yeah, the summary also forgot to include this:

Having spent time in call centers observing work behaviors, he said most employees boot the computer, then engage in nonwork activities. "They go have a smoke, talk to friends, get coffee -- they're not working, and all they've done at that point is press a button to power up their computer, or enter in a key word," Rosenblatt said.

The impression you get from reading the article summary is that there are legions of poor tech workers who show up to work, turn on their computers, and then sit there idly in their cubes, twiddling their thumbs for a half an hour waiting for their computer to boot, and their employers dock them for that time.

But once you hear the other side of the story, it sounds to me like these "poor victimized employees" come in, hit the power button, and then walk off to do other stuff which occupies them for the better part of an hour, because booting takes (realistically - c'mon, now) more than ten or twenty seconds (which is longer than the average attention span of say, a college grad with a business degree), and that management is trying to get a handle on it as best they can.

This is a classic case of "blame the technologies for my laziness (because my boss doesn't understand it, either, and he'll buy it!)" This isn't anything new, it's an internal management issue.

Re:Yes.

[gregbot9000]

HAHA at some jobs I worked at(construction) the union guys would show up, clock in, then go to the toilet for 20 minutes. Seriously the boot thing is dumb, you're right. If they show up they are getting paid. If the boss doesn't like them sitting around shooting the breeze while the comps start he should just be a dick and make them itemize todays priorities or some other BS busy work.

Re:Yes.

[roguetrick]

Doesn't rightly matter, if the employee is wasting off the clock time you fire them. You don't get to say "Well you weren't doing a good enough job here, so I'm going to not pay you for it."

Re:Yes.

[Planar]

Hell yes, leave the computer on overnight. If your employer is requiring you to switch it off at night and on in the morning, then it's obviously part of your job and you can demand to get paid for it.

And if they have automatic shutdown, why in hell don't they have automatic boot up? Modern hardware has been able to do that for decades.

Re:Yes.

[L4t3r4lu5]

Sounds like you shouldn't be using roaming profiles.

You need to teach your users to make proper use of networked storage, including local copies and synchronisation if work is done off-site. Copying all of the users' profile over the network every time they log on must cripple your network in the morning.

Re:Yes.

[fabs64]

So it's management's discretion as to what hours I am paid for while I am at work during the allotted time?

No, sorry, that just doesn't fly.

You should also note that they only try to pull this kind of shit on the people they can get away with it with, ie the people who can't afford it.

Re:Yes.

[houghi]

In Belgium I am insured when going to work and getting from work, even though I do not get payed that time.

Re:Yes.

[hedwards]

I wholeheartedly endorse your support your proposition to start a prostitutes union. I'm sure the women are sick of having to give freebies to the pimps.

Re:Yes.

[garett_spencley]

I consider myself to be libertarian but I don't see any problem with unions. To prevent workers from organizing is contrary to libertarian principles. How can one value liberty and freedom to the fullest extent allowable (meaning to the point where one group's freedoms impede another group's) and yet deny workers the freedom to organize ?

A lot of people, myself included, have observed problems with unions making ever increasing unfair demands and being at least partially responsible for creating the incentive for companies to outsource. Yet I still support a worker's RIGHT to unionize. Just as I support the companies RIGHT to try to get the best labour possible at the lowest cost.

I don't see where people started to get this idea that libertarianism is a synonym for greedy capitalism. Yes we favour free market and don't like government interference. Yet that has nothing to do with favouring corporate execs over workers. People seem to have gotten things so twisted since the US economy went south. Pointing to the recession and saying "see! free market doesn't work and this is what libertarians want !!!!". Try doing some reading first and then ask yourself if you really believe that libertarians want corporations to be able to influence government to increase their power. Libertarians are directly oppose to power in all of it's forms. That's the very fundamental basis of libertarianism. That relates to unions in the sense that unions are a way of countering power levied against workers. There's nothing wrong with that. Certainly not in libertarian politics.

Re:Yes.

[j-cloth]

Yes it was illegal, but the problem with crappy service jobs is that the people who have them are often desperate and, in the employer's view, expendable. We were both students and were happy to have a pay cheque -- any pay cheque. We could have complained and improved the workplace, but the effort involved was better spent getting a better job.
I think that if the capitalists want you to vote with your dollars to weed out the crappy products or companies by not buying from them, it's even more important to vote with your hours and just not work for assholes any longer than necessary.

Re:Yes.

[Lumpy]

I love the young kids working and doing what some Jerk-wad boss tells them to do. If I get paid from 8-5 then I turn on the PC at 8:00am and not a second before, and Log off? screw that, the pc get's it's power button held down at 5:00pm or I start shutdown at 4:50.

If the boss bitches I say , "so fire me" I'm doing the company a favor, not the other way around, dont be scared to tell your boss no, he needs to thank you every day for coming in and giving the company your skills.

Yes that is reality, many of you guys out there think otherwise and that is why the workplace is such a craphole. you pump up these idiot managers that think they are doing you a favor, they never are.

P.S. my attitude got me promoted all my life. I'm now a top level exec at a startup that is going stron in this economy. and I bring my workers doughnuts every friday out of my OWN POCKET. to say thank you to them for coming in to work and working for me.

any boss that does not do that is utterly worthless.

Re:Yes.

[theaveng]

Yes but the fix was so EASY. Pick up the phone and call the State Department of Employment. Ask for anonymity and report that you worked half-an-hour after closing without pay. Multiple times. It won't be long until your employer is on the hot seat, and you will still have you job since he/she won't know who did it.

Re:Yes.

[ThatsNotFunny]

I don't think the Pimp's Union will stand for that.

Re:Yes.

[interploy]

Damn straight. As soon as I come in the door I clock in. Booting up the computer and going through the morning routine is part of the job, especially - if your work is like mine - when they have an energy saving policy that requires us to shut down the computer every night.

Cutting corners like this only causes resentment among the employees, which overall probably makes the whole shenanigan pointless. I wonder if these companies have calculated the cost of higher turnover rate because of these shady practices, or the lessened productivity by those who do harbor resentment. Is it still profitable then?

Re:Yes.

[phlinn]

You're right. He should have said "Libertarians are directly opposed to coercion in all of it's forms.". Coercion and power are not the same thing, although that's still an over simplified statement. Although your first example of power is wrong, as Libertarians generally ARE opposed to the state having a monopoly on force used to protect life and property. They recognize a basic right to self defense.

Re:Yes.

[cayenne8]

I guess I don't understand why people are bitching about pay for boot/shutdown times. Are they coming in early or something to boot their computers?

I come in...clock starts running on my work time. I boot up....at the end of the day, I shutdown, and when I walk out of the building, the clock stops.

Not sure how others are doing it?

Re:Yes.

[AntiDragon]

Same goes for me here in the UK. If something were to happen to me while at work or while *travelling* to/from work, my next of kin get a rather large payout. Er...hang on, gotta go check the brakes on my car...

Re:Yes.

[jonaskoelker]

if you wanna be a super huge gaping asshole

There's this website you might have heard of...

Re:Yes.

[vishbar]

When I was still an hourly employee we used an electronic timecard--you couldn't "clock in" until the computer was booted and ready. Usually took a really long time...30 minutes in total. You didn't even have the option until your machine was booted and workable...God forbid you have issues starting up.

Re:Yes.

[Sancho]

Funny thing is, they don't get to fire you for no reason. There are lots of reasons that they can't fire you, including but not limited to firings for the person's gender or race, the person's age (if over a certain age) and retaliatory firings for the worker filing a worker's comp claim, for taking leave under the Family and Medical Leave Act, or for whistle blowing (which is the specific issue discussed here.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_termination

Now like I said, this varies somewhat by state. There are some federal statutes (like the protected class cases), but mostly, it's defined by the state. And like I said, I don't know of any state where it's legal to fire a person for whistle blowing, though if some allow for that, I'd love to know.

What often happens in these cases is that circumstances arise for which the employer wants to retaliate against the employee, so they fire him/her. The employee then files a lawsuit claiming wrongful termination, and gives the reason. Generally speaking, these cases are decided upon a preponderance of the evidence, so if the employee gets into court and says, "I reported my employer for doing this illegal thing, and then he fired me!" it's going to be up to the employer to prove that either a) the firing was for no cause (pretty hard to do with) or b) that the firing was with cause, and here's the list of reasons why he was fired.

The judge or jury or whomever then weighs the evidence to determine whether or not the termination was illegal.

"At will" isn't as simple as you tried to make it.

Re:Yes.

[NtroP]

When I was still an hourly employee we used an electronic timecard--you couldn't "clock in" until the computer was booted and ready. Usually took a really long time...30 minutes in total. You didn't even have the option until your machine was booted and workable...God forbid you have issues starting up.

WTF!? I didn't RTFA (of course) but even using Windows, what computer takes 15 minutes to boot? One minute I could understand, 15 minutes? Even my big SQL servers don't take that long to boot the OS and then bring the DB online. If you are fiddle-farting around before logging in then no, you shouldn't get paid. If you are bitching about not getting paid for the 1 or 2 minutes it takes to boot and log in to the system then I submit the boss has the obligation to put a camera on you to make sure you don't answer your personal cell phone or text message anything personal or chat up a colleague about non-work-related stuff or otherwise waste a minute or two of his time.

If it truly takes 15 minutes to boot your system then your IT guy should not be getting paid at all.

Re:Yes.

[immcintosh]

You missed the point. He said they get to fire you specifically for no reason, which is absolutely perfectly legal everywhere (at least in the US). Wrongful termination requires you to prove that there was a specific reason you were fired, and further requires that that reason be one of a certain set of categories that are protected. In other words, there are many reasons by which your employer can't fire you, but no reason isn't one of them. All they have to do is simply go up to you, say, "You're fired," and then send you packing, and as long as there wasn't some sort of obvious pattern pointing to a protected class, there's nothing else to it.

Solution

[Hao Wu]

who is defending a half-dozen employers in computer-booting lawsuits... believes that, in most cases, computer booting does not warrant being called work."

Then don't do it. Leave the computer off, and ask your boss when to begin working.

What do you think?

[QuantumG]

I get paid to post on Slashdot.

30 minutes?

[Mike610544]

Which 486 are they using, the 50 or 66 MHz? The faster clock of the 66 may seem like a win, but the 50 MHz version has the faster bus speed.

Re:30 minutes?

[CrazyJim1]

The faster clock of the 66 may seem like a win, but the 50 MHz version has the faster bus speed.

Only the DX. The DX2 is actually a double clock speed of a 25 MHZ.

I tried them both with Xwing, and the 66MHZ wins hands down.

These computer must be from 1995

[VinylRecords]

I didn't know you could boot Vista on a PII 233mHz 64mb RAM PC...

Re:These computer must be from 1995

[AmberBlackCat]

You can, now that Microsoft has lowered the requirement for Vista Capable...

No.

[a whoabot]

The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?

Re:No.

[syousef]

The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?

Telecommuters can flick the switch and literally get on with something completely not work related - eat breakfast, shower, masturbate, or have sex while the computer boots. Last i checked that was frowned at work, but I guess it depends on the industry.

Re:No.

[TrekkieGod]

The person who telecommutes would not get paid for that time, why should the person in office?

Because the person who is at the office is getting paid for doing one additional thing that the telecommuter isn't being paid for: being at the office.

If the employer told me to be there at 9am, I don't care if there's work to be done or not. Time isn't free, and I could be doing something else at 9am. I could be sleeping in, I could be doing laundry, I could be playing video games. If part of my job is to be at the office at 9am, then I get paid for being there at 9am, whether or not I'm waiting for my tools to be ready or for them to tell me what to do.

If he tells me to be there at 9 and stay until 5, and doesn't give me any work, should he pay me for that time? How would you justify answering "no" to that?

If my employer *really* wants me to start working as soon as I get in, he can pay someone to go through the office at 8:45am and start turning the computers on before I clock in. Oh, that costs money? He could leave the computers on all night. Oh, that costs electricity? It's all a balance, but it's still part of the cost of operating the business. If I'm expected to turn it on, then it's part of my job's duties, and thus it's obviously something that I need to be paid to do.

Re:No.

[QuasiEvil]

...or have sex while the computer boots

Actually I had sex while on conference calls a few times. Thank god for mute, both for my sake and for the sake of coworkers. My ex was a screamer. Good memories, I tell you.

Re:No.

[Merls the Sneaky]

I have argued for the fact that we all should be paid for travelling aswell, after all travel time isn't fun and is usually a requirement.

Re:No.

[Z80xxc!]

If my employer *really* wants me to start working as soon as I get in, he can pay someone to go through the office at 8:45am and start turning the computers on before I clock in.

While your suggestion was obviously impractical the way you framed it, most computers have an option in the BIOS to power on automatically at a certain time every day. All of the computers in the office could be set to turn on at 8:45, and then they'd be all ready by the time the workers arrived. Better yet, they could be staggered so that they wouldn't all be swamping the network at once. Groups of computers could turn on at 5 minute intervals. You wouldn't have to leave them on and waste power, you wouldn't have to pay people to turn them on, and the employees would be all set to go when they got to work.

Re:No.

[totally bogus dude]

Agreed, it'd cause way too many problems.

I live in an apartment literally one city block from my workplace, so my travel time is about 5 minutes. Why should I get paid less for being at work 8 hours a day than a coworker who lives an hour away? Unless your commute is such that you can actually work while you're traveling, then you're not providing anything of value to the business. The business shouldn't be forced to compensate you for choosing to live further away than other people.

Re:15 minutes?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never booted from a remote disk on the other end of a slow connection, have you?

More than just Windows....

[linumax]

This is probably more than Windows booting up and includes the time to fire up the relevant applications (email, office, all custom apps, etc.) and the time these applications take to sync with the server which could take a while due to mass of clients connecting at the beginning of the workday.

Re:More than just Windows....

[negRo_slim]

Connecting to a domain can be a wonderfully long process on poorly configured equipment.

Re:More than just Windows....

[SpacePirate20X6]

Multiply it by two if encrypted by pointsec.

Re:More than just Windows....

[freeze128]

What company do you work for that uses primarily Macs?

Erm.... Apple?

I'm in the building

[earnest murderer]

That sitting at my desk waiting on the computer doesn't get anything done is irrelevant.

It started with being 10 minutes early. Then it was at your desk and working at 9 am. Now at your desk waiting for your PC to "show up to work" so you can log in and start getting paid.

Besides, if this goes... the next stop is monitoring software measuring every second that you are actually inputting.

Re:I'm in the building

[Gutboy]

I work for a company that is testing software that monitors everything you do on the computer. The current desire to use this software stems from employees that seem to never get anything done, but are working all day. They want to see what they are doing. It's a small step to then install it everywhere. I'm sure the cost of licensing this software for the 12000+ employee machines is all that is holding them back.

Re:15 minutes?

[zappepcs]

It's not purely the boot time of the computer. Many places require that you open several applications in order to accomplish your assigned tasks. These can take time to load and access as well. If the system administrator(s) use the wisdom of IT to use boot time to scan drives for application and other content audits, it can take quite a while before the machine is actually usable. Same sort of thing happens at shutdown in many places.

I have had myself removed from the 'normal' network profile to avoid all that crap on my work laptop. I archive at home on the weekends (at my cost) and scan at night for malware etc. I do not need their invasive methods as I am not helpless and lazy as are the users who have forced them to resort to this kind of methodology to comply with security policies, SarBox etc.

It is more than possible that people spend 30 minutes a day waiting on routine maintenance processes that are run during bootup and shutdown.

The part I like is that I use the laptop at home, and may be actively running scripts overnight, yes for work. The 'normal' profile includes a forced reboot at 3 a.m. I have spoken quite heatedly several times to IT people about the completely asshat idea that a forced nightly reboot is required for LAPTOPS used by people traveling with the laptop.

IMO, if you are forced to be at work, and to tend to the pc, then it's payable labor.

Cheap Bastards

[Zymergy]

If your company is run by cheap bastards who have their hourly employee time-clock billing system tied into a booted PC ONLY, I say sue the crap out of them!
I used to work for a really cheap company, but we had a dedicated time clock system with punch cards (that eventually evolved into a magnetic strip w/PIN code system).
I got paid to boot up my PC or to sweep the floor all day and never boot up... no difference really, it is ALL WORK.

NOTE: Booting up your work PC is PART OF YOUR JOB (otherwise I'd leave it on 24/7)...
Just like the State Highway Patrol gets paid for the time Troopers take start and defrost their cruisers. Are they working? SURE ARE! (And they get paid for that time too... not just for 'protecting and serving' and writing speeding tickets...)

Situation more complicated that it seems

[l2718]

Employers generally refuse to pay workers for the time between walking in the door of the factory and reaching the production floor on the theory that they are only going to pay for actual production time. Because of regulations on hourly wages and minimum wage laws this is a big issue. This dispute is partly resolved by the "Portal-to-Portal Act", which generally says (IANAL) that employees have to be paid for tasks which are related to their job (expansively defined). This means that you don't get paid for travelling to work, or for extra hours just because you arrive early, but once the workday starts they can't decline to pay you for the time it takes to put on your safety gear for example, even though putting on safety gear isn't literally your job on the production floor (the Supreme Court has opined on this several times). In this case the employers are claiming that you don't start doing your job until the computer boots up. Now if you weren't required to show up until the boot process is over they may have a case, but otherwise it's rather odd: booting the computer looks (to me) clearly related to using the computer to do stuff.

Re:These lawsuits don't make any sense.

[geminidomino]

It looks like the issue is that the workers agree with you: The employers do not want to pay for the time to be there. My guess would be that the "clock in" is done on the computer.

Re:15 minutes?

[Hao Wu]

In industry, a huge percent of computers are hooked up to machines. Turning them on and waiting for them to initialize is basically part of "booting" the system before you begin. Conceivably, that can take minutes or even hours to perform.

Also waiting for network connections takes time.

If that isn't work, then they'd better provide hammocks for the time you are waiting. (Or better, they should just obey the law and pay their employees.)

my time, my paycheck

[v1]

in most cases, computer booting does not warrant being called work

The way I look at it is I'm being paid for my time. Time that I can't be off doing something I want to do. How much I get paid for my time of course depends on what I can accomplish with the time they are buying from me.

But for ME, time spent sitting idle at work, time that my employer is requiring me to be there, is time I should be paid for. How many people would be OK with their boss saying hey how about you come in an hour early and leave an hour late starting tomorrow? Not on the clock or anything, I just want you to BE here. You don't have to work. But it's going to be a new requirement around here.

Sounds silly and of course you can't find anyone that would be OK with that, but that's just this issue taken to a little of an extreme to prove a point. Your time is your time. If they want you to give some of it up, they better be paying for it. If it took me 15 minutes to get the computer booted up to punch in, and after I punched out I was required to spend another 15 in the office waiting for it to shut down, you can bet I'd be having a talk with my manager about compensation for my lost 65 hrs of pay a year. That's a week and a half of paycheck lost a year. Not really lost, time TAKEN by your employer without compensation.

Little stuff like that adds up. Don't let them fool you by saying oh it's only 15 minutes, you don't mind that do you? That's cheating me, pure and simple.

Re:my time, my paycheck

[joelmcintosh]

As a self-serving caveat ... my office Mac boots in 29.8 seconds ...

... but on to the bigger issue. I agree with you. I own a small company with 10 employees. From the moment staff members walk into my business and are under my management, they should be be paid for their time. If my computers take too long to boot, that's my problem. The bargain is that my staff is trading their time and labor for my cash (capital ... as in capital-ism). These companies ought to be sued -- they are not holding up their end of the bargain.

The real problem

[Ark42]

The problem is that many employers use a time keeping system which pays employees based on when they log into some system. For example, a friend of mine works through manpower as a temp for $10/hour just answering phones all day. When she gets to work, she must turn on the computer, and wait for it to boot, which is not the same as home computer because it boots from a network and has to log into a Citrix server somewhere. That takes a bit longer. Then, once a desktop appears, you have to open the "soft phone" software to control the phone and log into the queue. Only then do you actually start getting paid.

There is no way for the employer to know that an employee is at work and working unless they are logged into the soft phone. This means that if she has to be at work at 8:00, that really means she has to have the computer on and be logged in by 8:00, so in reality, be there by 7:45 and be "at work" but not be paid for that first 15 minutes.

It's not that the problem isn't solvable, even with a different technical solution, it's just that's the way they do things. The employers don't see it as a problem, and if you aren't logged in by the time you are supposed to be working, you are "late". Rack up around 5 "lates" or so, and you are fired automatically. It's all done by computer systems behind the scenes, so if you log into the phone at 8:01, you risk being fired. All the more reason that it is really underhandedly telling employees that they must show up for work 15 or more minutes early, and that time is unpaid.

It's not just about being at work and having to reboot and go unpaid in the middle of your day, it's about the only way your boss knows you are even at work requires the computer to already be on.

Re:So, automate the boot process.

[Tokerat]

Seeing as the last big company I worked for used IE6 for "security reasons", I don't think they know how to configure auto-boot.

Re:15 minutes?

[j741]

How the hell does it take anyone 15 minutes to boot up their computer.

Anti Virus software (such as the bloated Symantec and Norton products) examining every single file that is accessed when a user's 1GB+ roaming profile is synchronized across a network that is already clogged to begin with is just one of many ways to cause this effect.

It's the law.

[Jane Q. Public]

In my state, and the state right next door where I currently work, if you are required to be there, then it's work and you must get paid. This holds for after-hours meetings, and any other reason you are required to be there.

Some employers have tried to tell people to show up 15 minutes early so they are "ready to go" when work actually starts at 8:00 (or whenever). Won't wash. If they require the employees to be there for those 15 minutes, they are required to pay the employees for those 15 minutes.

We won one of those

[erikharrison]

I worked many moons ago as a tech support agent for BellSouth Internet - of course, my actual employer was ClientLogic, who no longer exists.

The tech support client was different from all the other kinds of phone support that operated in the facility. The others had at most one app - generally a DOS DB driver app for taking orders. and you'd telnet in, and run it. There was no account for accessing the system, and the departments were small enough that employees used the same cubicle day in day out.

The contract with BellSouth required that a number of applications be opened. Each one had a login. They varied by which kind of service you provided - DSL support, Dial Up support, or the various forms of advanced support. Also managing all those windows was terrible on Windows (hah). In the absence of virtual desktops managing as many as 20 mandatory apps got insane.

And,of course, the number of employees exceeded the number of allocated cubicles. So as soon as you stood up, the next shift was grabbing your cubicle, logging out, logging back in, and starting up those apps.

At first, it was standard operating procedure to walk in, go to one of the various machines hanging around, sign into the phone system, which was also the time tracker, log out so that you weren't taking calls on the machine, and let the next guy clock in, while you hunted around for a cubicle, and brought the machine up. But BLS was the only client who had this issue, and a manager was brought in from another department and removed the machine.

All hell broke loose. I was promoted at that point, and effectively, if not officially, had my own cubicle. I was logged into the system all the time, so I didn't have to get into the various fights about the issue, although several people either quit or were fired.

Over a year after leaving, I got a moderately fat check in the mail from the class action lawsuit which had occurred unbeknownst to me. And damn right. I had to arrive early and setup a computer as required by the client in the contract. ClientLogic got more money per call taken from BLS than from other clients because of the additional requirements the techs had to follow - but I don't get paid for doing the actual leg work?

Re:15 minutes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a major oil company. We use Windows 2000, all sorts of stuff is scripted and permissioned. From a cold boot it takes 12-15 minutes to start up in the morning. I work in a group that consults and bills to other groups, so I either have to eat the time or bill it to another part of the company.

Re:15 minutes?

[EvilIdler]

Have you ever had a job at a place with a large Windows-based network? You'll understand when you do.

There can be all sorts of crap required by company policy, servers to wait on, user accounts to be replicated, login scripts to launch and the most bloated anti-virus because the management got a good deal on it. Company computers are often fairly old, especially in government facilities where I live. I've supported the ones for the social services, for example, and they were dreaming of upgrading to 512MB RAM on XP.

Re:15 minutes?

[NormalVisual]

A lot of call centers don't work like that. You "punch in" when you log into your phone, but that can't happen until all the other crap the parent poster talked about is done. Basically, a lot of call centers don't consider you to be working unless your phone is active and able to take calls, which often means not getting paid for bathroom breaks, etc.

It's something that I think really needs to be addressed, because even 10 minutes a day wasted on this crap is more than a week's worth of unpaid work every year.

Absolutely!

[ohtani]

Booting up a computer IS work. It's as much work as somebody waiting for diagnostic results, or a supervisor "supervising", or a programmer compiling. They may not be making a direct impact at the time, but they have invoked the actions and are required to invoke said actions and required to wait for said actions to complete.

The employee should not suffer a lack of compensation due to the lack of the ability of the equipment supplied by the employer themselves. If they want to not pay the employee, they need to invest in an instant-on technology of some sort.

On the OTHER hand however, if one is, for instance, compiling, and it continues through and beyond a break (such as lunch), it makes sense for the employer to not compensate (if they do not compensate for lunch, as the break time is no longer considered a required period of labor and observation and supervising and what not. The employer can definitely push for such longer periods of time to be started before a break.

And this is not to say that the employer cannot have an employee be productive in other ways while a computer may be booting or whatever. Ask them to straighten their desk or something.

And to echo a lot of other people's comments, yeah, seriously. 15-30 minutes for BOOTING? I don't care if they "start programs". 15-30 minutes?! First off if they're "starting programs" that is DEFINITELY being productive. But if it's seriously taking 15-30 minutes for an individual to wait for a computer to start up or shut down, they have MUCH worse problems on their hands.

ObXkcd

[michaelmalak]

XKCD 303: Compiling

existing precedents

[redshirt]

This one is a slam dunk for any competent law firm. It used to be the case the coal miners were not paid for the time spent donning and removing protective gear. Despite the very different industries, it basically means that if you are required to do tasks to prepare to do work, then you need to paid for that additional time. It's then easy to apply this logic to a computer booting up, as that is obviously a required task. So is shutting down.

Re:huh?

[kandela]

George Jetson was paid the whole day just to press a button to start the plant in the morning and shut it down before he went home. Same thing.

If a fictional cartoon character from the future can get paid for that, then I don't see why I can't be too.

Scheduled Power Up.

[TavisJohn]

If employers want to decrease the boot up time, than either leave the machines on 24/7 or in the BIOS Schedule the power on.

However I feel that Boot Time counts as work. If you are a draftsman, you get paid as you set your desk up, tape the paper down, etc. Setup to work counts as work! Employees have no control over the computer gear, the boot up times, or anything of the like.

If they use the logic that boot time does not count as work... Than employers can then not pay you when the network goes down, when your computer stops working, or for any computer/network problem that is outside your control!

However does anyone else feel this may be payback for employees checking personal e-mail, playing games in their browser, ordering personal items online... Basically wasting time on the company dime.

Re:So, automate the boot process.

[cgenman]

if you gave us their IP range and a favorite website of one of the workers, I'm sure we could configure it for for them.

Re:15 minutes?

[influenza]

When I worked at a call centre, punching in was tied directly to the "ready to take calls" status on my phone. We were expected to reboot and sign into the computer and about 8 applications and websites and read all the newest service alerts before signing into the softphone to take calls.

As soon as we signed out of the softphone for any reason other than a scheduled break or training it also punched us out. So we weren't paid for reboots or quick trips to the bathroom, or even for stepping away from your desk to ask a supervisor or colleague for help between calls. Well, the supervisors would make sure you got paid if you had to talk to them by correcting your time sheet, if they remembered.

Shafting the employees for 15 minutes every day only made it that much worse for the company. Their customers got poorer service and were put on hold frequently. We also found ways to cheat the system. Time theft was rampant there, and everybody justified it to themselves and others as fair because the company was stealing from us everyday. Management would eventually weed out the worst offenders, but being a shitty call centre it had a very high attrition rate as it was so getting fired was kinda difficult.

While I was there, I contacted a reporter for the newspaper who was also a former president of his local. His union also represents workers in call centres, and he and I met for lunch with a union organizing rep. He told me that he would help bring the union in, but often call centres will simply relocate as soon as they notice any organizing. This was very likely at my call centre, where on the first day of training we had to read together the first page of the training binder a bunch vaguely threatening anti-union propaganda.

One time while I was working, fire alarms went off in the building. I told my customer about the alarms and that I had to hang up. Just as I was doing that a supervisor stood on a chair announced that they were checking to see if it was a false alarm and to keep taking calls. I locked my computer and headed towards the exit, where another supervisor was physically preventing people from leaving by standing in front of the entrance in a fighting stance. A few minutes later news came back that it had indeed been a false alarm, but they hadn't known that when they prevented us from leaving.

It's that same attitude from the Triangle Garment factory. These call centre companies are 21st century white collar sweat shops. That day when the fire alarm went off really put things into perspective for me.

Needless to say, I didn't get paid for the time away from my desk trying to get out of the building because of fire.

Re:15 minutes?

[Majik Sheff]

Unless you're salaried, your boss is out of compliance. When you're ready to move on, make sure he gets a visit from the dept of labor.

The liability is entirely on the corporation here

[zullnero]

Seriously, greedy managerial types seem to think that a person's entire job rotates around a computer. A computer is a tool that you use to do your job, not unlike a crescent wrench. You pay a mechanic to take the tool out of his toolbox, you pay a person to turn the computer on. If the systems boot slowly, that's the fault of the corporate IT policy putting slow-booting operating systems on computers. If people aren't being paid, what, does their time card automatically start when it's finally loaded by Windows? Then that's some seriously questionable software practices in regards to labor laws.

Absolutely

[maz2331]

I don't recall the case name, but just a couple of years ago it was ruled that employees had to be paid during periods where they were putting on and taking off protective gear and uniforms. I can't see waiting for a machine to boot up to be any different.

Major back-pay is coming their way for this. All those 15 to 30 minute periods add up. Plus probable punitive damages, and sometimes the feds even decide to toss a fine in for good measure.

Re:Absolutely

[Mr. Beatdown]

I found an article about it. And it's written by real lawyers. Would you like to know more?

Re:Other tasks?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

My computer burns about 150W idling away (displays eat another 100W, but they turn off after 5 minutes). At a nominal rate of about $.06/kWH, that's 12.6c/day (14H idling) - my free soda costs more. Never mind that most places pay on something like peak usage during the day, so a bit of power wasted at night costs nothing at all.

Scary...

[Ioann]

I find this kind of discussion rather scary. If you are at work place, setting up the tools you use to do your job, then it is work. Full Stop. The discussion should be about whether your boss should pay you (even maybe with a reduced fee) for time spent COMMUTING to get to the work place. But note that this has nothing to do with productivity. Is just bosses harassing people (to maximize profit). I think i wouldn't like to work in the USA.

Re:15 minutes?

[Zwicky]

Call me old fashion....

Shuddup, a-line flares! You ain't nothin' but a lime green tank-top!

This is how we do it

[RemoWilliams84]

Where I work (at a software company), everyone is given a pen and paper to write their code on. Then, once a week each group (about 15 to a group) is given an hour of access to a computer that resides outside the mens room. When the time comes, we all scramble to the computer and fight over who gets to enter their code this week. This method definately saves a lot of time booting and shutting down because we only have one computer. It also really weeds out the people who aren't strong enough to code.

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