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EU Strikes Down French "3 Strikes" Copyright Infringement Law

Erris writes "Opendotdotdot has good news about laws in the EU: 'EU culture ministers yesterday (20 November) rejected French proposals to curb online piracy through compulsory measures against free downloading ... [and instead pushed] for "a fair balance between the various fundamental rights" while fighting online piracy, first listing "the right to personal data protection," then "the freedom of information" and only lastly "the protection of intellectual property." [This] indicates that the culture ministers and their advisers are beginning to understand the dynamics of the Net, that throttling its use through crude instruments like the "three strikes and you're out" is exactly the wrong thing to do.'"

271 comments

  1. Huh? by stonecypher · · Score: 3, Funny

    that throttling its use through crude instruments like the "three strikes and you're out" is exactly the wrong thing to do.'"

    Why? Repeat offender laws are remarkably effective in normal crime control; what makes this different?

    --
    StoneCypher is Full of BS
    1. Re:Huh? by canajin56 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nothing, if the rule is no more internets after 3 convictions, not after 3 complaints from a private third party?

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    2. Re:Huh? by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because the weight of "evidence" required is normally zero.
      *drafts 3 fake copyright complaints to stonecyphers ISP*

      Go back a decade or 2 and a crafted packet "ping of death" could knock someone using windows 95 off the net for a few minutes, now 3 specially crafted packets encapsulated inside envelopes can knock someone off the net for weeks or months no matter their ISP.

    3. Re:Huh? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      *OS not ISP

    4. Re:Huh? by Repossessed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The complete lack of due process probably had something to do with it.

      Depending on how technically inclined they are, the realization that things would swiftly move to encryption only (if only because nobody not using encryption would be left online), and that even with due process the courts would be relying on the assumption that all P2P is piracy may have played a part as well.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    5. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because internet became a necessity for functioning in society.

      The 'three-times-you're-out' rule would be the same as to prohibit rehabilitated thieves of making use of the road.

    6. Re:Huh? by Teun · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because our laws know different levels of control.

      Above all are the human rights, the right of information (communication) is way on top, a basic human right.
      You could probably find offences that if repeated sufficiently often could warrant a reduction of this right, sharing IP as we know it is not going to be one of them.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    7. Re:Huh? by o'reor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Effective" does not mean that it's not crude. Thanks in part to the "3-strikes-you're-out" rule, The US has the highest prison population (in percentage) among developed countries. The latest figures indicate that more than 1 in 100 American men or women are in jail.

      That's 10 times more people in jail than Germany, for instance. Hell, it even leads Russia on that turf. So much for the "land of the free"...

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
    8. Re:Huh? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Some countries require the internet for some government interaction tasks.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    9. Re:Huh? by soniCron88 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You've shown a great number of U.S. citizens are in jail, that's it. Unless you're going to bring concrete numbers regarding the % of people in U.S. prisons who are, in fact, there because of 3-strikes laws, you might as well vomit random numbers--what you're saying is meaningless in the context of this conversation.

      Say we have a vastly more effective police force: That could account for it.

      Say we have stricter (draconian?) drug laws: That could account for it.

      Say we have slower due-process and the majority are merely pass-throughs: That could account for it.

      I could name any one of hundreds of reasons why the U.S. prison population is so high. Yet, without demonstrating the % of those attributed to any one factor, I'm not going to jump around calling 3-strikes laws crude on the basis of that.

    10. Re:Huh? by Elektroschock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I expect the ACTA process to include the 3-strikes again, both for the US and the EU. Trade policy is completely different and shielded against democratic influence.

    11. Re:Huh? by bestalexguy · · Score: 1

      In my country (Italy) almost the opposite happens.
      If I got you right, you're not complaining about innocent jailed people.
      I can't see the upside of having offenders free on the street instead of locked up.
      Being robbed or assaulted twice in the same week by the same guy is extremely crude. In Italy, this may happen.

    12. Re:Huh? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Repeat offender laws are remarkably effective in normal crime control; what makes this different?

      Actually, they're not.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    13. Re:Huh? by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 0

      You could just as easily argue the opposite. Going easy on drugs makes drug trade less profitable because risks for the "entrepreneur" are lower. Etc...

      The point is whether the high amounts of prisoners make the country a saver place?

      Trying to enforce a strict regime is like managing a project through a spread sheet without considering important exceptions in detail. In theory everything makes sense but the project is not likely to achieve one tenth of its potential. Still managers value a spread sheet project better than one with greater but less obvious merits.

      Managing a project does not compare in importance with managing society. What are your ideals and will these come true and sustain themselves? Probably not by being strict on stuff you don't want but by concentrating in nourishing stuff you like.

      I also doubt to find evidence that U.S. citizen are less or more criminally inclined than citizen of other countries. The percentage of prisoners should reflect this equality.

      --

      I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
    14. Re:Huh? by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      What about the outrage from arrogant media producers who feel they deserve to continue raking in obscene profits for work they did many years ago?

      It cuts both ways you know, if media producers weren't so hostile towards the consumer (long copyright terms, draconian drm, etc etc) then only a small hard core of people would make their own copies....
      But it's clearly more profitable to wring massive profits from the poor suckers who will buy, than to lower prices and loosen restrictions but sell more units.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    15. Re:Huh? by h-xman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why? Repeat offender laws are remarkably effective in normal crime control; what makes this different?

      What makes it different? The court. The independent court that has to prove that you've committed the crime. The proposed French law would be about possibility to punish anyone without any court involved, without any proof.

    16. Re:Huh? by JohnBailey · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why? Repeat offender laws are remarkably effective in normal crime control; what makes this different?

      Repeat offenders are usually tried and convicted. Not just pointed out in the street and incarcerated. Three strikes in this case means three accusations and no more internet. Not three convictions.

      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    17. Re:Huh? by srjh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it's worse than that, most information these days is transferred over the internet.

      It would be the same as prohibiting someone who made a bomb threat from ever possessing a phone or a pen again. Freedom of expression is not something that should be so trivially and easily revoked.

    18. Re:Huh? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      We should work to close this vulnerability asap, like we did with the "ping of death".

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    19. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it can happen in the US too... what's your point?

    20. Re:Huh? by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      How is that trolling? It's an honest question.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    21. Re:Huh? by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Oh, see, that I didn't know. Are you certain that it's not three convictions? Can you cite? That seems ... pretty remarkable.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    22. Re:Huh? by lysergic.acid · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      there's no such thing as innocent people. most people have broken a law at some point in their life whether they know it or not. it could be littering, jaywalking, speeding, driving without a license, underage drinking, possession of stolen goods, removing the tag from a bed mattress (only illegal if you sell the mattress afterwards), etc.

      even if someone is guilty of a stereotypical "criminal act" like robbery, theft, drug dealing/possession, etc. that doesn't mean they should be locked up for life. even if you don't care about civility or human rights, a criminal justice system should be designed with public good in mind. and, generally speaking, keeping 10% of the population locked up is not good for any society.

      it's both, more cost-effective and societally beneficial, to implement of system of treatment/corrections in conjunction with restorative justice or reparations whereby the victim is paid restitution in some way by the offender.

    23. Re:Huh? by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

      Many years ago? Steamboat Willie is still under copyright! The man has been dead for half a century, yet his first work, written when cars needed to be started by hand and antibiotics were even a dream in a doctor's eye, is STILL under copyright! Is there ANYONE here that can stand up and with a straight face say that is fair?

      People seem to forget that copyrights are a CONTRACT, one in which we get a richer and more diverse public domain in return for a LIMITED term of copyright But thanks to the outright bribery of politicians all over the globe it has long since quit being a contract and has become instead a way for evil multinational corporations to print money for all eternity. And then the greedy bastards don't even bother to pay the artists they are ripping off! Just look at how Meatloaf had to sue for nearly 20 years because the record company said "Bat out of Hell I", which to this day is still on the top 200 chart, hadn't actually generated a profit! I shit you not! Or for a more recent how Peter Jackson had to sue because they tried to pull the same shit with LoTR.

      The simple fact is copyright passed being fair many years ago. Hell it passed obscene and is into disgustingly obscene now. When copyrights exist for longer than most humans lifetimes they cease to be anything more than a complete stranglehold over our entire culture. This is IMHO just disgusting. So frankly I don't feel ANY pity when someone else rips them off, because they have been ripping us ALL off for quite some time now. I don't see how even the most jaded politician can stand up and with a straight face say having a cartoon from 1925 still under copyright is fair and just.

      Of course with every country seeming to trip over themselves trying to see why one can become the most fascist the quickest I don't really see anything changing anytime soon. Hell I know things have gotten so corrupt here in the US that CSPAN needs to run under the lawmakers "This politician is bought from you by:" along with the logo of whomever bought him/her off this week. Might as well let the greedy bastards get maximum returns for their dollar!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    24. Re:Huh? by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      Why? Repeat offender laws are remarkably effective in normal crime control; what makes this different?

      For one thing, the fact that no crime is involved. A "crime" without a victim -- someone whose rights were violated -- is no crime at all (whether it's immoral or not), and no one can have rights which violate the rights of someone else. Thus, true property rights and rights of association and communication trump so-called 'rights' to copyright, which are in fact no rights at all, but the violation of rights.

      Second, as another poster mentioned, no conviction is required.

    25. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think he was referring to the 3-strikes-and-your-out drug laws, so it's a perfect analogy.

      You've shown a great number of U.S. citizens are in jail, that's it. Unless you're going to bring concrete numbers regarding the % of people in U.S. prisons who are, in fact, there because of 3-strikes laws, you might as well vomit random numbers--what you're saying is meaningless in the context of this conversation.

      Say we have a vastly more effective police force: That could account for it.

      Say we have stricter (draconian?) drug laws: That could account for it.

      Say we have slower due-process and the majority are merely pass-throughs: That could account for it.

      I could name any one of hundreds of reasons why the U.S. prison population is so high. Yet, without demonstrating the % of those attributed to any one factor, I'm not going to jump around calling 3-strikes laws crude on the basis of that.

    26. Re:Huh? by Thirdsin · · Score: 1

      So much for the "land of the free"...

      That reminds me... What is the difference between the Constitutions of the USA and USSR? Both guarantee freedom of speech.
      Yes, but the Constitution of the USA also guarantees freedom after the speech.

      --
      No words of wisedom here.
    27. Re:Huh? by Dzimas · · Score: 2, Informative

      *Just look at how Meatloaf had to sue for nearly 20 years because the record company said "Bat out of Hell I", which to this day is still on the top 200 chart, hadn't actually generated a profit! I shit you not!*

      Meat Loaf sued songwriter/producer Jim Steinman over the right to use the trademark "Bat out of hell" in conjunction musical performances and recordings. They settled out of court. I am not aware of any legal action resulting from the record company's failure to pay Mr. Loaf for the 45+ million copies of his albums sold to date. Perhaps you can provide a link?

    28. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Euthanasia generally follows this.

    29. Re:Huh? by drsquare · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Say we have a vastly more effective police force: That could account for it.
      Say we have stricter (draconian?) drug laws: That could account for it.
      Say we have slower due-process and the majority are merely pass-throughs

      Or, you just have more crime due to vast inequality caused by unfettered capitalism. But don't suggest that to Republican voters.

    30. Re:Huh? by oliderid · · Score: 1

      What about the outrage from arrogant media producers who feel they deserve to continue raking in obscene profits for work they did many years ago?

      I'm a user of piratebay, I know what I do is illegal and I won't reject my fault on somebody else. They define their price that's up to you to buy or not. Sure I might consider to buy their stuffs if it was slightly cheaper but in the end, I know I'm the offender, they aren't. It's a bit childish to try proving we are on the right side, IMHO.

    31. Re:Huh? by TriggerFin · · Score: 1

      U.S. citizens? No. "People living in the U.S."

      --
      Here's your sig.
    32. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to make a different statement: The fact that so many of the citizens of the US are in jail proves (to me) that the US is one fucked up country. I'll leave the research as to why this has become the way it is to interested readers.

    33. Re:Huh? by ultranova · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many years ago? Steamboat Willie is still under copyright! The man has been dead for half a century, yet his first work, written when cars needed to be started by hand and antibiotics were even a dream in a doctor's eye, is STILL under copyright! Is there ANYONE here that can stand up and with a straight face say that is fair?

      The true irony is that Steamboat Willie was a parody of Steamboat Bill Jr., which was released a few months earlier. In fact most Disney films are based on copying existing stories, from Peter Pan to Jungle Book, from Robin Hood to Snow White. Disney owes its existence to fair use laws.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    34. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's effective because it's used to subvert the system: you never try to reinstate the criminals and eventually you'll have 'grounds' to put them in prison forever

    35. Re:Huh? by sponga · · Score: 1

      You are tackling a lot of issues there.

      You just don't understand the culture aspect of it all and how these gangs work in the poor neighborhoods.
      The 'don't snitch policy' has devastated entire neighborhoods, gang warfare, the crack epidemic and the list just goes on. How far and invasive do you want to go to stop these activities; because when you have the entire family not saying a word about their dead sons killer even though they know who he is.

      Germany doesn't exactly have the Compton, Queens and type neighborhoods; so they are dealing with entirely different cultural.

      I think the '3-strikes law' puts fear into the criminals mind knowing that he shouldn't do that crime, if you have ever seen a car chase where the felon has two strikes knowing they are going away for a long time they will do absolutely suicidal stuff to get away from the cops. Those ones they just call of the chase and get the guy later, unless it was drive by or murder.

      Living in California we passed a law recently to help with rehabilitation for prisoners and felons to get them out of the system, it goes deeper than that though.

      African-Americans have some of the most broken homes and fatherless children than anybody else. This is a culture problem where African-American need to start standing up to this and take action, living in quiet fear is not going to help their children who are committing murders at ages 11. I don't remember reading last time a 11yr old German kid shot a 45 year old over a drug deal, maybe the cannibalism part.

      Oh yah and I am so sure Russia is land of the free, more like woman abusers and alcoholics galore over there. I always get a crack out of videos on the internet of the Russian police officers drunk on the streets making a scene or when they come to investigate a guy drunk off his ass who just crashed his car, nothing happens. No wonder they make no arrests and no one is in jail, the police are pathetic and when they need to take down the armed guys they bring in government special forces.

    36. Re:Huh? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      It's an honest question.

      It's a loaded question.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    37. Re:Huh? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Sorry twitter, but I make my living off of and use nearly exclusively MSFT software! Yep, that's right! I repair and sell machines that come with the creamy goodness of Windows XP. I know, the horror, the horror,right? Maybe you wouldn't scream M$ so much if you got to enjoy the delicious creamy goodness of WinXP Pro. Now with SP3 for extra flavor! You could even use an Excel spreadsheet to manage all your sockpuppets! Wouldn't that be nice?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. How do you get membership? by kramulous · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wish Australia was part of the EU. Perhaps this firewall business would disappear.

    --
    .
    1. Re:How do you get membership? by Chep · · Score: 2, Funny

      Another requirement of *E*U membership might be some continental proximity to Europe... (or be a direct dependent territory, see Reunion, which is probably the closest scrap of EU from Australia. Would Australia go back on its independence to achieve EU membership?... Dude...)

    2. Re:How do you get membership? by Falconhell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Like all civilised countries, Australia does not have the death penalty.

      To me it is the touchstone of civilization that the state does not kill its citizens.

    3. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but if it kills other country's citizens?

    4. Re:How do you get membership? by Elektroschock · · Score: 4, Funny

      We can get Iceland for free as an EU member state now ;-)

    5. Re:How do you get membership? by o'reor · · Score: 1

      see Reunion, which is probably the closest scrap of EU from Australia.

      I'd say that New Caledonia is much closer, about 750 miles away from Australia.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
    6. Re:How do you get membership? by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1, Troll

      Sorry man. I know I am pissing on the karma bag on this one, but I completely disagree. Some people need to die. Their only function in the world is to bring pain and anguish to all the people that come in contact with them. The debate should be more about "Who can possibly make such a decision" than "Why should we make such a decision". Ignoring false-positives (which there will be in any form of government), execution is a win-win for everyone. People are 10000000x more afraid of dying than the prospect of life in prison. They know that somehow, someway, they may get out of prison. When you die, you are dead, and there is no getting out of it. So not only is it the ultimate deterrent, those who choose to break a death penalty law should be killed anyway... after all, if that isn't going to stop them, nothing will.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    7. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ignoring false-positives (which there will be in any form of government),

      Wow... just... WOW.

    8. Re:How do you get membership? by Chep · · Score: 1

      New Caledonia is not part of the EU; it is only a TOM (Territoire d'Outre-Mer), in less flowery words, a colony. Reunion Island is a DOM (Département d'Outre-Mer), ie. "overseas chunk o'France". See for instance this banknote, you'll see the overseas confetti that do count (nexto to the omega). New Caledonia isn't.

    9. Re:How do you get membership? by travellersside · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's true that some people should be killed, but for me that's more about mercy. As far as I'm concerned, a death penalty is no big deal. I'd rather not die, but at least it's over and done with. Being locked up in prison for years and decades? Only to emerge vastly older, out of touch and with no hope of operating in the world, not least because of the stigma that's attached to being an ex-con and likely made worse when people find out why you were there? Not terribly appealing, you know. "But at least you're not dead." Pfah. There are worse things than death.

    10. Re:How do you get membership? by Falconhell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, the facts are that the death penalty does not work as a a deterrant as you claim.

      Take for example terrorists, they would rather die and go to heaven than live in a jail.

      I cant be bothered looking up the figures, but there have been many cases where DNA has taken someone out of death row. How many innocent people should be allowed to die so you can feel good about the death penalty being applied?

      Executing even ONE innocent is intolerable.

      In a deeply flawed justice system it is unfogiveable.

    11. Re:How do you get membership? by Falconhell · · Score: 4, Informative

      No state should ever kill anyone.

      The single most stupid damging human afflication is
      beyond doubt 'patriotism" I have never been able to work out any useful function of patriotism.

      Its just a mechanism of propaganda that allows govts to start wars.

    12. Re:How do you get membership? by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Basicly you have no clue how death penalty works out in reality.

      The Soviet Union in the late '70ies introduced the death penalty for rape. What was the result? The number of rapes did not go down. But the number of rapes where the victim got murdered afterwards shot up.

      People defending the death penalty often seem to be under the impression that crime in the most cases is carried out because of lenghty thoughts and careful weighing of the pros and cons. It is not. And that makes the whole "deterrence" idea void.

      The death penalty does not deterr crime. Period.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    13. Re:How do you get membership? by o'reor · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a strange situation. New Caledonia is on a transition status to independence, and although the citizens of New Caledonia are considered citizens of the EU, and take part in the elections processes of the EU, the island is not part of EU territory. It is considered an associate member of the EU though, and has benefited from European funds for development.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
    14. Re:How do you get membership? by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Not everyone is afraid of dying tho...
      Consider suicide bombers, who are planning to die... If somehow their plan fails, but they are still convicted of attempting a terrorist bombing, killing them is in effect finishing their job. Keeping them alive would be worse punishment, since they believe that death would make them a martyr.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    15. Re:How do you get membership? by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Prison is a pretty poor punishment, for the reason you pointed out...
      When you leave prison, depending how long you've been there you may have completely lost touch with the world and suffer the stigma of being an ex-con which will severely hamper any hopes of moving on...

      Instead, the only life you know and the only way to make enough money to live is crime...
      You've spent the last X years in the company of criminals who could have taught you plenty of illegal things, and you're likely to have many new criminal contacts now.

      Prison is basically a school for criminals, you weren't a very good criminal when you went in (not very good because you got caught), but after coming out you will have the benefit of pooled criminal knowledge and new criminal contacts.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    16. Re:How do you get membership? by Chep · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Transposition of most EU laws there is not mandatory, although yeah, the most fundamental stuff is supposed to apply there as well.

    17. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this a troll?

      Very bad moderation. There is no -1 disagree.

    18. Re:How do you get membership? by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People defending the death penalty often seem to be under the impression that crime in the most cases is carried out because of lenghty thoughts and careful weighing of the pros and cons. It is not. And that makes the whole "deterrence" idea void.

      You are jumping to conclusions, the magic words here are "no worse than". By applying the death penalty to rape, they made rape/murder no worse than rape. It's always a problem for the legal system to run out of options - even without the death penalty someone that's heading for life without parole (as in really life, unlike in Europe) already has no legal incentive. The only thing they can control is the probability of getting caught, not the outcome and so killing witnesses, destroying evidence, wild getaways that gives them better chances at getting away is "rational" in some fashion. Having the death penalty could at least provide some minimal incientive for people to only do jail time crime. The big threat is the escalation effect - if being a street pusher or a drug lord both get punished the same, there's no incentive against moving up in the system. It just doesn't help to threaten with ten consecutive life sentences (what an oxymoron), nor does it really help the RIAA/MPAA to threaten bankrupting people ten times over.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    19. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish Australia was part of the EU. Perhaps this firewall business would disappear.

      Whilst the proposed internet censorship is disgusting, unfortunately so to is your comment, despite your best intentions.

      The EU can tell member states what laws they may and may not have! I thought the French were French! But they are further along the path to global government and they should be ashamed for forfeiting their sovereignty.

      It's obvious why the Irish did not endorse the Lisbon treaty: they have fought for independence more recently than most and so have fresh (if bitter) memories. They are not prepared to sacrifice their freedom freely.

      We must stop all attempts by government to forfeit our sovereignty to external parties: we are Australia, and we must govern ourselves (however poorly)!

    20. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think death penalties are necessarily meant to serve as any sort of deterrent. There is simply a point at which the offender is assumed to be past "rehabilitation."

      In the US, prisoner care and housing is paid with tax dollars. Why should society pay to place a criminal in perpetual (until death) incarceration when said criminal is deemed to have a less than zero sum contribution to the society that will never change?

    21. Re:How do you get membership? by srjh · · Score: 1

      If we were part of the EU, what makes you think we wouldn't get the worst of both worlds?

      An Aussie was arrested and jailed in London recently on a German warrant for denying the holocaust. I'm not too comfortable exposing ourselves to those laws whilst having a secretive internet blacklist.

    22. Re:How do you get membership? by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, the problem lies somewhat deeper.

      For a deterrence to work, you have to be able to imagine the penalty to you. It's no problem to imagine paying a penalty of $1000 (and also to imagine the stuff you can't buy instead). It's also no problem to imagine being locked in a prison for a certain amount of time and not being able to walk where you want or get up when you want and choose the clothing you want etc.pp.

      But it is psychologically impossible to imagine being killed. Because then you would have to imagine not being able to imagine anymore. So the death penalty is just a big abstractum to you. It has no touchable meaning for you. As long as you can remember, you were always there, and as long as you will be able to remember, you will be there. From your experience, you seem to have eternal life.

      If you actually fear the afterlife, if you really fear being in Hell or Eternal Damnation or whatever your religion defines as the Big Bad Thing that gets the evildoers, death penalty might actually work work as a deterrence. But that requires you to be deeply religious and devout. And then it can work also in reverse: You just have to imagine that your planned deed is somehow holy and just. And then instead of a deterrence, sure death might even look positive.

      That's for instance why the Taliban can muster so many suicide bombers. Probably not many of them are ready to go to prison for life. But confronting them with the big abstractum works, because you can fill the nothingness that is death with anything you want, also with 72 virgins. Instead of a deterrence the death is actually attractive to them.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    23. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, but we also have a history of telling other to "Fuck off" when we don't like something.

    24. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The death penalty does not deterr crime. Period.

      You've given no where near enough evidence to make such a claim. The only thing your example shows is that for those who already willing to rape, there may not be a penalty high enough to deter. This speaks more about rape than the death penalty.

      You've done absolutely nothing to lead me to believe that the death penalty will be completely ineffective in deterring other crimes. Do you honestly believe that a death penalty for speeding won't lessen traffic speeds a bit? Yes, that's an extreme example; your statement, however, seems to blanket over everything.

    25. Re:How do you get membership? by Falconhell · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Why should society pay to place a criminal in perpetual (until death) incarceration'

      As of February 2004, 113 inmates had been found innocent and released from death row. More than half of these have been released in the last 10 years. That means one person has been exonerated for every eight people executed.

      A quick Google will show how bad the problem is.

      The ACLU also wrote:
      A study by Columbia University professor James Liebman examined thousands of capital sentences that had been reviewed by courts in 34 states from 1973 to 1995. ""An astonishing 82 percent of death row inmates did not deserve to receive the death penalty,"" he said in his conclusion. ""One in twenty death row inmates is later found not guilty.""

      Enough reasons for you?

    26. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      p>People defending the death penalty often seem to be under the impression that crime in the most cases is carried out because of lenghty thoughts and careful weighing of the pros and cons.

      Also, in the unlikely event that a crime is thought out, the thought process is similar to: "I'm smarter than the cops, so they are never going to catch me"
      Once that has been established in the criminal's mind, what is the relevance of any threat of penalty? "They can't do anything to me 'cause they won't catch me".

    27. Re:How do you get membership? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Another requirement of *E*U membership might be some continental proximity to Europe...

      Time to break out the plastic paddles then...

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    28. Re:How do you get membership? by Dan541 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have never been able to work out any useful function of patriotism.

      It allows the army to recruit more easily.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    29. Re:How do you get membership? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      We don't have a government that protects the right of it people. Australia needs liberating.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    30. Re:How do you get membership? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Nah, not really all that much to worry about, as Australia would not so much be partnering with the EU but be an equal partner with each of the individual member states. Also in the case of being arrested there is the additional protection of being a citizen of a member state rather than a foreign nation. These global partnerships are becoming a fact of life, so it either the US with Australia as an exploited junior partner, Asia again to be dominated by China and Japan or Europe where there are already are significant cultural ties.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    31. Re:How do you get membership? by baileydau · · Score: 1

      Another requirement of *E*U membership might be some continental proximity to Europe...

      Time to break out the plastic paddles then...

      You mean a bit like this ...
      http://stuffucanuse.com/aussie_windows/am.htm

      --
      Ever stop to think ... and forget to start again?
    32. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The facts bear out the proposition that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent.

      A modicum of research will show you this is true.

      I dont see YOU posting any evidence that the death penalty does deter. If you want to make a point, prove it!

      Mods are fucked in the head today, must be from texas!

    33. Re:How do you get membership? by marafa · · Score: 1

      to me it is the touchstone of civilisation that man does not kill another man.

      --
      _ In Egypt Networks: Network Solutions with a Twist
    34. Re:How do you get membership? by Exlee · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's pretty obvious that death penalty does not deterr crime. It can even push it up. I can bet that if someone commits a crime for which he knows he will get killed - he won't have any limits anymore. So he can get even more brutal.

      However that is NOT the point. There are 3 other things on the topic: punishment, costs and safety.

      Do you really think, that serial murderer will get his punishment in prison? That anyone will ever touch him? He will be the king of the hill exploiting other prisoners who commited lesser crimes. If one is strong mentally he can even persuade others to become more violent when their penalty is done.

      As for costs - let's assume that the criminal killed your mother/wife/daughter. Congratulations - now you will pay his "rent" for the rest of HIS life. It might be 1$ per month, but - still you do that, by taxes etc. It's pretty bad if state can't pay of your medical treatment (because lack of money) but they HAVE to pay for prisoners (you don't want them to run free anyway).

      As for public safety - you can't guarantee that someone convicted for life will be there until end of his life. Law changes, amnesties come and go, and it might happen that murderer eventually will go out after 30-40 years. Sure, he will be 70-80, but if his psyche is broken, he might want to fell the thrill of the murder once again.

      I thought about solution for above problems (cost - things) and I came up with this one: While law should allow for this kind of conviction there should be possibility that someone can "save" prisoner from his fate either by taking him in (countries massively against death penalty for example) or paying for his stay at prison.

      However there is one single flaw in this solution. While people like to yell how much they are against death penalty there are only a few, who want to take actions against it.

    35. Re:How do you get membership? by argiedot · · Score: 1

      In addition to that, it also serves some functions. Different states have different societies, and there apparently isn't any particular society today that is superior to another.

      To defend a society because you believe in its ideals and in its current manner of working requires a certain degree of enlightenment (not simply intelligence) and patriotism is a way of ensuring that the less enlightened members* of the state pull their weight when it needs to be defended.

      Or it may just be a vestige of our tribal nature, who knows?

      * I know this sounds rather like making other people's decisions for them, and that's a dangerous road to go down on, so I'd like to hear another reason for it.

    36. Re:How do you get membership? by Shivinski · · Score: 0

      ..Ohh but it is...

      We send our prisioners there!

    37. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the French are also European. They did not "forfeit their sovereignty" (I think you mean independence) to a global government, they federated along with a number of other European states to form a union with a European government.

      Australia can govern itself or outsource their government to India for all I care, because the comparison is not valid.

    38. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He couldn't have been arrested on a German warrant, it would have to be European. There's a difference; the European arrest warrant is valid in all EU states while a German warrant is only valid in German states.

    39. Re:How do you get membership? by Jaseoldboss · · Score: 1

      No you don't, or at least you'll be glad you don't live in Hull UK. Their monopoly ISP 'Karoo' disconnects users with NO WARNING upon receiving any unsubstantiated allegations of file sharing by its users.

      Here's proof with a link to a sample letter.

      I've also had this happen to me on one occasion. They claim that they will charge 60GBP for reconnection if it happens regularly.

    40. Re:How do you get membership? by Raenex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But it is psychologically impossible to imagine being killed. Because then you would have to imagine not being able to imagine anymore.

      This is nonsense. If people didn't fear death they'd be dying all the time. If breaking the speed limit was punishable by death, there would be a lot less speeders on the road.

      If you actually fear the afterlife, if you really fear being in Hell or Eternal Damnation or whatever your religion defines as the Big Bad Thing that gets the evildoers, death penalty might actually work work as a deterrence.

      The primary role religion plays for most people is to get over the fear of death by promising an afterlife.

    41. Re:How do you get membership? by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Sounds like it fell through the bureaucratic cracks

    42. Re:How do you get membership? by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      I'll play devils advocate
      What if they are guilty beyond all "unreasonable" doubts? So guilty that a truther would even agree
      Multi-murder-rapes, genocide and what not?

      It seems like the only problem is that death is over used

    43. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he meant useful to society, not useful to idiotic warlord-wanabe politicians.

    44. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe Nationalism in the Modern Era was invented by the French in late 18th Century so they could field an army big enough to fend off 'rest of the civilized world' and to break up the German Empire into Prussia + Austria + *Lots of others*

      It's propaganda, and darn good one, even better than Liberty or Equality

    45. Re:How do you get membership? by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      However there is one single flaw in this solution. While people like to yell how much they are against death penalty there are only a few, who want to take actions against it.

      Except for in civilised societies, where the state doesn't kill people (including innocent ones), and "life for life, Eye for eye" is not taken literally. Here most people have agreed on taking action against it a long time ago.

      There are so many unfixable objective problems with capital punishment that societies that value justice should avoid it altogether. The single flaw in your solution is presuming that the law should include such punishment.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
    46. Re:How do you get membership? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When expeditiously applied it will eliminate 100% of a convict's would be repeat crime.

  3. Not completly good news by pembo13 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    On one hand, a patently stupid law has been struck down. On the other hand, a multi country has superseded the laws of a single, albeit member, country. I am no fan of these type of organizations.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      You mean organizations like ... USA ?

    2. Re:Not completly good news by who+knows+my+name · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why? In this case, at least, the EU has shown its worth. I think the EU can be the voice of reason, much like the British house of Lords. It may introduce bureaucracy, but I will take that for protection of my human rights, privacy and a more open Europe.

      --
      Nothing to see here.
    3. Re:Not completly good news by lukas84 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, there is no need to be a member of the EU. That's what was democratically decided in those countries.

      This is also the reason why Switzerland isn't a member of the EU - it was declined in votes (by the people). One of the big advantages of the half-direct democracy we have here.

    4. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think the EU can be the voice of reason, much like the British house of Lords.

      ah hahahahahaha

      *wipes tears*

      heh..

    5. Re:Not completly good news by KDR_11k · · Score: 5, Informative

      The member states signed treaties that they will have to obey certain restrictions imposed upon them by the EU. If they didn't want that they shouldn't have joined the EU. They wanted the benefits, they gotta live with the downsides too. France isn't a small country and could certainly have stayed out of the EU without being bullied into joining.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    6. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      On the other hand, a multi country has superseded the laws of a single, albeit member, country. I am no fan of these type of organizations.

      Are you a fan of the USA, on the federal level? One could say the same thing about the individual states and the federal government.

      Or, for that matter, one could say the same thing about the counties and the states. Or the municipialities and the counties. Or the neighbourhoods and the municipialities. Or the individual homeowners and the neighborhoods.

      Seriously, what IS the difference?

      What the EU needs is more democracy - or, rather, some democracy at all. But that's a matter of implementation, and the basic idea is not just sound, it's in fact no different from ANY kind of government on any other level, either.

    7. Re:Not completly good news by just_a_monkey · · Score: 1

      You do realize that it's only because we have the EU that France at all could try and impose such a law on us non-French? (And on the French, but France could have done that anyway.)

      --
      How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
    8. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not at all. The EU is about consensus. It's not some great bureaucracy that dictated what France can and can't do, "the culture ministers decided" that it was no acceptable. Thank you, culture ministers.

    9. Re:Not completly good news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Besides, France is still free to leave at any point if they feal that EU membership obligations are too burdensome. It's not like with the US states...

    10. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference may have been that a large number of people were unaware or unprepared for that the 'federal government' has come into existence and has the power of law over their nation.

      In many cases they did not vote for membership, or voted for membership under different terms than what has developed. They still find themselves subjects of the new state.

    11. Re:Not completly good news by HuguesT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The EU is roughly the size of the USA in population and area.

      Perhaps it is not so different to think of the EU as a large country with a number of member states?

      The EU doesn't have jurisdiction over every elements of members' law, but safekeeping democracy and liberties in all of its member states is part of its charter.

      This is good, no? Recently, even in highly technical areas like patents and telecommunications, European representatives have erred on the side of preserving liberties. This is amazing, not?

    12. Re:Not completly good news by Chrisje · · Score: 1

      To paraphrase Bush:

      The trouble with the Americans is that they have no word for renaissance.

    13. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't be so sure. France relies so heavily on farming subsidies from the EU they'd be a far weaker nation than they are now otherwise.

      France is in a situation like Britain was in the 70s and 80s, back then Britain had a massive mining industry but it simply wasn't profitable, it was held up by subsidies and it was holding the country back. Thatcher realised this and whilst it was immensly unpopular, she let the mines close. It resulted in large amounts of job losses but the country was better for it. France is in the same position but has no politicians with the balls to commit political suicide for the good of the country and accept that their farming industry simply doesn't make sense anymore.

      Of course, yes this means France could do without the EU if it had any politicians with the balls to do whats right for the country but it doesn't and even when it does it'll take a decade to fix up the damage done by these subsidies and start moving these farmers into jobs that actually benefit the country.

    14. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be completely fair, since the Constitution Treaty did not come into force, there's no documented procedure for a country to get out of the European Union as of now.

    15. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      France is actually has been there since EU's creation, they halep shaping UE as it is today...

    16. Re:Not completly good news by porpnorber · · Score: 2, Funny

      So the wrong side won the US civil war? Just checking. You're allowed to say 'yes,' I know it wasn't really about slavery (though you have to ask yourself whether the revolution wasn't, given the timing).

      (PS: Flamebait or not? It's an interesting and slightly worrisome fact that when I say something cynical about America I have no way to predict whether I'll be modded "flamebait" or "insightful." I swear, I can use the exact same words on two different days and get opposite moderation. Maybe it depends on timezones—am I posting while Europe is awake?)

    17. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The EU doesn't have jurisdiction over every elements of members' law, but safekeeping democracy and liberties in all of its member states is part of its charter.

      Which is ironic, given that the big decisions made at EU level are made by politicians who are not directly elected to those posts (and not infrequently, they are those who could not credibly remain in government in their own countries after the mess they made of things back home). Because of this, the EU is often used by national governments who want to push an unpopular agenda that they can't credibly do locally, by driving it through in Europe where there is no popular vote, and then claiming back home that they have to implement things because "European rules say so". Moreover, the EU takes a staggering amount of money from some of its member states to subsidise the others, but this direct financial support does not seem to result in any greater bargaining power for those states, and the EU hasn't managed to get its accounts audited and signed off for 14 years.

      In other words, if you think the EU has anything to do with democracy, I'm afraid you're completely delusional. It happens to have produced one or two useful sets of rules on areas like human rights, but it's produced a whole heap of bad laws on just about everything else, and charged us a pretty penny for the privilege. It was never supposed to be a United States of Europe, just an economic agreement for mutual benefit, but the vested interests and empire builders at its heart have turned it into far more than that. The fact that the only thing that stopped the EU Constitution^WReform Treaty going through was the Irish no vote in a referendum, because no other member states' national governments would actually allow their people a referendum with the negative (for them) outcome so clearly predictable, tells us all we need to know of European democracy.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    18. Re:Not completly good news by d.corri · · Score: 0

      "The EU is roughly the size of the USA in population and area."

      No, it's not.

      Population of the EU: 499,021,851
      Population of the US: 305,722,000

      Size of the EU: 4,324,782 km or 1,669,807 sq mi
      Size of the US: 9,826,630 km or 3,794,066 sq mi

      "Roughly" indeed...

    19. Re:Not completly good news by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      You think so? The states were "free to leave" too -- they never gave up their sovereignty -- but look what happened when they tried. I wouldn't bet on it being any different this time.

    20. Re:Not completly good news by z-j-y · · Score: 1

      without EU, France would have forced this law across Europe.

    21. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, except that france is a major nuclear power.

      Kind of changes the equation a bit from the old american situation.

    22. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are French, no?

    23. Re:Not completly good news by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      Are you a fan of the USA, on the federal level? One could say the same thing about the individual states and the federal government.

      Or, for that matter, one could say the same thing about the counties and the states. Or the municipialities and the counties. Or the neighbourhoods and the municipialities. Or the individual homeowners and the neighborhoods.

      That's the right idea. In fact, each individual has the right to govern himself with no interference from outside forces -- assuming, of course, that he does not interfere with (i.e. violate the rights of) anyone else, either.

      Seriously, what IS the difference?

      What the EU needs is more democracy - or, rather, some democracy at all. But that's a matter of implementation, and the basic idea is not just sound, it's in fact no different from ANY kind of government on any other level, either.

      No, the idea of government is itself unsound. It is innately immoral. You started off on the right track with your initial questions. You went off track when you accepted that government is a legitimate idea. Check your premises.

    24. Re:Not completly good news by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Australian.

    25. Re:Not completly good news by HuguesT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually most of the European directives go in the direction of ensuring free trade, freedom and democracy. Just look at them. All these directives need to go before the European parliament which is democratically elected. The European council is indeed made of national ministers which are not necessarily elected, however they represent the majority in their country of origin.

      The proposed constitution would have given more weight to the parliament and less to the council, which is probably good. This is not the reason it was rejected.

      Your post illustrates the fact that in Europe member states like to blame Europe for all the ills of their economy. One day it's the Euro being too expensive, another the rules about government spending, some other time it's a rule that say a member cannot locally optimise its fishing laws to the detriment of another neighboring state. You name it. If you repeat something enough time it become "true", so people are starting to blame Europe for everything.

      In fact recently the president of Europe, currently Nicolas Sarkozy, complained loudly that Europe was preventing him from doing "politics".

      However in crisis times everyone thinks the Euro and its stability is grand and the necessity to harmonize financial policies is a definite bonus. Without the European framework it would be a free-for-all, fuck-your-neighbour disaster.

    26. Re:Not completly good news by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      Besides, France is one of the 6 founding members of the european steel and coal treaty founded shortly after WWII that gradually extended into the UE and has always been an active (ang generally positive) force in most of the UE evolutions. Comparatively, the UE reminding french government it should not dump human rights to please a few friends of the president is a minor issue that will resolve itself using the usuall box sequence.

    27. Re:Not completly good news by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      It was never supposed to be a United States of Europe, just an economic agreement for mutual benefit

      What part of "an ever closer union" don't you get?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    28. Re:Not completly good news by amorsen · · Score: 1

      All these directives need to go before the European parliament which is democratically elected.

      By far not all of them, and the parliament can't really do much about them anyway. The only real power of parliament is to dissolve the European Commission.

      Without the European framework it would be a free-for-all, fuck-your-neighbour disaster.

      That is what is happening in Denmark at least. We are losing our so-called "flexicurity" model and our universal health care system.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    29. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU is roughly the size of the USA in population and area.

      By a very, very loose definition of "roughly". The EU's current area is less than half of the US's. Its population is 30% larger.

      Perhaps it is not so different to think of the EU as a large country with a number of member states?

      The only aspect in which this is anywhere near reality is economy, and even theres' still quite a few caveats.

      In all other relevant fields, the EU is very far away from being a "large country with a number of member states".

    30. Re:Not completly good news by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "This is also the reason why Switzerland isn't a member of the EU - it was declined in votes (by the people). One of the big advantages of the half-direct democracy we have here."

      I remember you withhold the right to vote from women in the same half-direct manner until 1971 if memory serves, so perhaps you shouldn't blow your alphorn as loud.

    31. Re:Not completly good news by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      I remember you withhold the right to vote from women in the same half-direct manner until 1971 if memory serves, so perhaps you shouldn't blow your alphorn as loud.

      Womens right to vote was decided at the Kanton (state) level, and the last one to allow it was in 1971.

      It just shows that what happens is the Peoples will - not what some people see as politically correct. This is, as you can see, a two-edged sword.

      There may be decisions you disagree with, like the time it took for some to accept womens right to vote.

    32. Re:Not completly good news by magpie · · Score: 1

      Erm, bigger population (500M(ish) vs 300M(ish)), smaller area (4,324,782 (km sq) Vs 9,826,630 (km sq)) both by a fair bit. See wikipedia

    33. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the idea of government is itself unsound. It is innately immoral.

      The idea of Government may be unsound. But it appears that the alternative is worse.
      See Somalia etc.

    34. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Actually most of the European directives go in the direction of ensuring free trade, freedom and democracy.

      I don't really see how freedom and free trade are helped by rules that require local shops in my country to give up labelling using well-understood units that have been common since forever and instead use metric units that neither the shopkeepers nor many of their customers understand. (They're still allowed to use the old-fashioned units, but only very small labels, and they must use the metricised ones prominently.)

      Nor do I see how regulations that require throwing away large amounts of perfectly good food because it is the "wrong shape" are helpful for your stated goals. Even the EU has worked this out now and is working to change the rules, but it's taken decades of madness and a world food shortage to drive the point home.

      All these directives need to go before the European parliament which is democratically elected.

      The European Parliament is an impotent pretense, and pretty much always has been. It's the Council/Commissioners who have most of the real power, and they aren't directly elected. In fact, your next statement...

      The European council is indeed made of national ministers which are not necessarily elected, however they represent the majority in their country of origin.

      ...couldn't be more wrong. My own country's national government has no popular mandate, and the current executive were not even elected to their current offices. The people we send to Europe are those who, even in this local undemocratic system, still couldn't manage to get themselves elected, and the rules they impose on us in return are those which, even in the local undemocratic system, the national government could not force through.

      The proposed constitution would have given more weight to the parliament and less to the council, which is probably good. This is not the reason it was rejected.

      I'm not commenting on the Constitution/Reform Treaty, rather on the undemocratic process by which adoption was proposed in each case, and the telling fact that after the former was rejected too many times by the people, the people were denied any say on the matter in the latter case (except for the Irish, whose own Constitution prevented their government from abusing them the way everyone else's did).

      Your post illustrates the fact that in Europe member states like to blame Europe for all the ills of their economy.

      I think you misunderstand. It is not what Europe does that I was commenting on here. It was the fact that my own country gives several billion to the unaudited European slush fund each year, much of which is effectively claimed by certain other large EU countries who have their own sources of income. What do we get in return for spending more on them than on several entire government departments' annual budgets?

      However in crisis times everyone thinks the Euro and its stability is grand and the necessity to harmonize financial policies is a definite bonus.

      Which might be a more compelling argument to me if my country used the Euro, but we don't.

      Without the European framework it would be a free-for-all, fuck-your-neighbour disaster.

      It may have escaped your attention, but despite all the political handshaking and nice press conferences, many countries both within and outside the EU have been screwing their neighbours in recent months if they thought it would improve the situation at home, and the moderately successful agreements that are starting to overcome that tendency have nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with multilateral discussions between the most economically powerful nations, whom everyone else essentially has to follow if the big players agree.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    35. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure. Maybe I missed voting for it, or maybe it was just the explanation of why a closer union always seems to cost more money for me and my fellow taxpayers...

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    36. Re:Not completly good news by plnix0 · · Score: 1
      Wrong, and Somalia is not an example of an alternative to government. There are numerous governments in Somalia. These governments are fighting for control, because they want to be larger governments. Wikipedia:

      De facto control of the north of the country resides in the local authorities; of these Puntland, Northland State, Maakhir, Galmudug, acknowledge the authority of the TFG and maintain their declaration of autonomy within a federated Somalia. Territories south of Galmudug are in generally in the hands of the Islamic Courts Union and Al-Shabab, including the major port cities of Kismayo and Merka. The TFG has lost effective control of the country and now holds on to Baidoa, the seat of the Parliament, and a few areas of Mogadishu which are both under constant attack. On the other hand, Somaliland in the north, with its capital in Hargeisa, has declared independence and does not recognise the TFG as the governing authority. Its independence is unrecognized internationally due to opposition from the TFG and other African countries which fear secessionist movements.

      (emphasis added)

      Sounds like government to me.

      Even if you believe that Somalia is in a state of "anarchy", it is essential to note that the current conditions in Somalia are heavily influenced by past action by governments. Somalia is in no way an example of what happens when there is no government. Thus the conditions accompanying the 'anarchy' in Somalia are not inherent in the concept of anarchy itself, nor do they necessarily follow from it. But all this is somewhat moot, since Somalia does in fact have governments. Any time there are those who claim the right to use aggressive force to control others, that is government, as that is the defining feature of the phenomenon of government. A better example (albeit perhaps imperfect) of anarchy in history would be that of medieval Iceland. Icelanders lived fairly peacefully for a period of a few hundreds years under a market-based quasi-anarchy in which 'chieftains' offered protection and court services. The chieftains did not extract taxes nor claim territory. One could live near one chieftain, for example, but use the services of another, quite unlike government as we know it, which is generally quite territorial.

    37. Re:Not completly good news by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      You're in the UK? When did you vote for union with Scotland?

      maybe it was just the explanation of why a closer union always seems to cost more money for me and my fellow taxpayers...

      Citation needed.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    38. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I didn't vote for union with Scotland, and frankly, I wish they'd take their separation to its logical conclusion. That way the English can stop subsidising their economy so their devolved regional government can give out all kinds of benefits to their own people that the rest of us don't enjoy, and Scottish MPs can stop voting for our undemocratic government's unpopular policies on England-only issues in Parliament, knowing that their own constituents won't have to feel the consequences.

      And as for your "citation needed": just go and look up the amount of net subsidy the UK gives to the EU each year (it's second only to Germany) on any news site you like, and watch how the figures have changed over the years, particularly when you take into account TB giving up our rebate deal (I love that term, as if it wasn't a small fraction of our own money they were so generously giving back to us) and therefore effectively multiplying up the subsidy we give substantially. You can find current figures on sources as obvious as Wikipedia, or historical data on the UK government's web site by looking up past budget information.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    39. Re:Not completly good news by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      You spend so much time looking at the trees that you can't see the forest.

      "Happy if subsidies I get > taxes I pay" is a stupid way of deciding whether you're winning on a deal, whether it's the UK or the EU.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    40. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      "Happy if subsidies I get > taxes I pay" is a stupid way of deciding whether you're winning on a deal, whether it's the UK or the EU.

      Why? It seems like a pretty reasonable starting point to me. If it comes out the wrong way around, then clearly the deal isn't worth it unless it offers something more valuable as well.

      Remember that a great deal of the policies affected here are simply compulsory redistribution of wealth, and many of the others impose rather arbitrary legal restrictions on populations without their consent. Why should any taxpayer give up their hard-earned money to support such things?

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    41. Re:Not completly good news by plnix0 · · Score: 1
    42. Re:Not completly good news by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Remember that a great deal of the policies affected here are simply compulsory redistribution of wealth,

      and you'd pay no taxes if the UK (sorry, Ingerlund) left the EU?

      and many of the others impose rather arbitrary legal restrictions on populations without their consent.

      What "arbitrary legal restrictions"? Is the UK still a democracy? If it is then the populations have given their consent. You disagree with the decision of the majority, that's your problem, not ours.

      Why should any taxpayer give up their hard-earned money to support such things?

      So you don't want to pay taxes, I should cry?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    43. Re:Not completly good news by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      and you'd pay no taxes if the UK (sorry, Ingerlund) left the EU?

      I'd pay significantly less tax.

      What "arbitrary legal restrictions"? Is the UK still a democracy? If it is then the populations have given their consent. You disagree with the decision of the majority, that's your problem, not ours.

      The UK is not a democracy, and hasn't been for a long time. The population hasn't even had a vote on the current administration, never mind given its consent. The party with an absolute majority in Parliament received the support of only 22% of voters at the last general election, and lost the popular vote in England. Major policy decisions that affect England only have been pushed through using MPs from the other nations who have devolved the issue concerned to their regional government. The majority of people have never agreed with things like the weights and measures regulations, so much so that the government had to get special arrangements made for things like pints of beer and milk. In short, I don't know where you get this idea that our government is representative and has a popular mandate. These things are patently not true.

      So you don't want to pay taxes, I should cry?

      You seem to start from the premise that paying taxes at all is ethical. That's odd: if anyone else came and took thousands of pounds of your money under threat of force, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that theft.

      Taxes may (or may not) be a necessary evil, but they are certainly not the natural way of things, and the old saying "no taxation without representation" that made at least some moral case for using taxes seems to be overlooked in your argument. I'm as charitable as the next guy (actually, I discovered that statistically speaking I'm considerably more charitable than the average citizen) but I'm quite capable of deciding which causes to support with my hard-earned cash without unelected bureaucrats doing it for me, thanks.

      I find it strange that you so strongly defend an inherently corrupt regime (the EU) and challenge anyone who is being forced to support it against their will (but without actually providing a single objective argument in its favour anywhere in this discussion). I can only assume that you are either someone who does very well out of EU rules and/or subsidies but lacks any practical or moral argument to justify that support, or a troll.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    44. Re:Not completly good news by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      The UK is not a democracy, and hasn't been for a long time.

      End of conversation. Not worth talking to people as crazed as this:

      The majority of people have never agreed with things like the weights and measures regulations, so much so that the government had to get special arrangements made for things like pints of beer and milk.

      Feet firmly on the ground.

      unelected bureaucrats

      break out extra supplies of green ink

      inherently corrupt regime

      Weeble weeble....

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  4. The Free Culture Principle by crosbie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    * Seek culture, but not at the expense of liberty
            * Seek liberty, but not at the expense of truth
            * Seek truth, but not at the expense of privacy
            * Seek privacy, but not at the expense of life
            * Seek life, and enjoy free culture.

    1. Re:The Free Culture Principle by sakdoctor · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes I think I understand how this works

      * Seek rock, but not at the expense of scissors
      * Seek scissors, but not at the expense of paper
      * Seek paper, but not at the expense of rock

    2. Re:The Free Culture Principle by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 1

      * Seek culture, but not at the expense of liberty * Seek liberty, but not at the expense of truth

      Well...byebye religion and good riddance.

      --
      If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
    3. Re:The Free Culture Principle by ZmeiGorynych · · Score: 1

      You had me right through the first 3, but what on earth does the 4th mean?

    4. Re:The Free Culture Principle by Swizec · · Score: 2, Funny

      * Seek rock, but not at the expense of scissors * Seek scissors, but not at the expense of paper * Seek paper, but not at the expense of rock

      * Seek lizard, but not at the expense of spock
      * Seek spock, but not at the expense of rock

    5. Re:The Free Culture Principle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what will you do if you guys can't settle on lizard/spock?

    6. Re:The Free Culture Principle by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      Lisa: Look, there's only one way to settle this: Rock-paper-scissors.
      Lisa (thinking): Poor predictable Bart. Always picks rock.
      Bart (thinking): Good ol' rock. Nothing beats that!

    7. Re:The Free Culture Principle by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I'm confused, which one leads to the dark side?

    8. Re:The Free Culture Principle by Pichu0102 · · Score: 1

      And also seek these things, you seek an early grave as well, sadly.

    9. Re:The Free Culture Principle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Live and let live?

    10. Re:The Free Culture Principle by meringuoid · · Score: 1

      * Seek culture, but not at the expense of liberty
      * Seek liberty, but not at the expense of truth
      * Seek truth, but not at the expense of privacy
      * Seek privacy, but not at the expense of life
      * Seek life, and enjoy free culture.

      * Through free culture, my chains are broken.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  5. Danger to freedom by mlwmohawk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Any business model that depends on preventing what people can do easily in the privacy of their own home is (1) impossible to maintain and (2) detrimental to freedom as it requires an oppressive legal infrastructure and a brutal enforcement mentality.

    1. Re:Danger to freedom by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      So I guess we should just legalise printing counterfeit money, then?

      That's the funny thing about these simplistic arguments about enforcement: when you start to consider things like ethics and consequences, most people will act responsibly voluntarily, and you can concentrate any enforcement efforts on those who act selfishly at the expense of others. So it goes with any law, and this area is no different.

      The problem with copyright is that right now, because effective action hasn't been taken against abusive Big Media companies who were themselves breaking rules on things like price fixing and competitive behaviour with apparent impunity, a lot of people feel no sympathy and shaft those companies in return. This has the unfortunate side effect that the little guys who rely on the same laws to pay the rent and who haven't been abusing customers en masse also get screwed.

      It would be better if the copyright laws were rewritten with a more realistic fair use (or whatever your local version is called) concept, and people were educated about the economic realities of content production so they actually had a clue about when they were being screwed and when they were paying a fair price. As legal downloads have demonstrated, given such information, most people will play fair and be honest, as long as the people they are dealing with do likewise.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:Danger to freedom by crosbie · · Score: 1

      Neither copying an LP nor printing a dollar bill causes any harm. However, presenting either as genuine (if it is not) is liable to, as it may impair the truth (the public's apprehension thereof).

      We need to take care in distinguishing unnatural monopolies such as copyright from falsehoods such as public acts of plagiarism or passing of forgeries.

      We should also recognise that falsehoods committed in the privacy of one's home cannot cause harm whilst they remain private.

      So, counterfeiting was not such a good exception to retaliate with.

      Selling one's dispensable organs (kidneys) might have been a better example to use, of a business model that should still warrant the state's intrusion into the private domain to thwart.

      This is because the right to life exceeds the right to privacy, however the right to truth does not.

      The state is supposed to protect all its citizens' rights. What it should never do is grant monopolies to corporations that suspend citizens' cultural liberty and invade their privacy. That this error may be difficult for most people to recognise should not be suprising, after all, copyright was legislated only three years after the ink had dried on the US constitution.

    3. Re:Danger to freedom by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      So I guess we should just legalise printing counterfeit money, then?

      The difference is that the product you create is basically just a picture. You can't use it outside the privacy of your own home, to use it, you have to go in public and defraud someone into accepting it as real cash.

    4. Re:Danger to freedom by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You seem awfully sure of which rights are important, which aren't, and what order everything goes in. That's remarkable, considering that lawyers and philosophers have spent centuries debating such points, and to this day there are fundamentally opposed points of view with widespread support.

      As for the state granting artificial monopolies: that is the entire point of copyright. It's very easy to condemn that, but such evidence as we have suggests that without that incentive, a lot of that "culture" wouldn't be there for people to enjoy in the first place. It's not as though copyright is worth anything to those who don't create and share useful works, nor restricting anyone who doesn't have that work to copy in the first place.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    5. Re:Danger to freedom by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      OK, but if you're going to play that card, you have to accept that to have a work to copy that way in the first place, it has to have got into someone's home. If they bought a legitimate copy, then personally I think however they use it themselves and privately should constitute fair use (and, to varying degrees in different jurisdictions, the law often works this way already). However, what we're talking about here is making illegal copies over the Internet. That's hardly private, particularly on the part of the person providing the copy to people they've never met before who connect to their computer and ask for a copy of something. The fact that copies can grow exponentially this way, independent of any compensation for the people who did all the work, is exactly the problem here.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    6. Re:Danger to freedom by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      You are arguing apples and oranges. "Money" is not a copy of a song. Money, in and of itself, represents a value external to the physical bill you hold in your hand.

      When one attempts to pass copied currency it is fraud because you are asserting it represents a value above and beyond the mere image you are passing. Further more, you are using the fraudulently projected value of the fake currency to convert value.

      When people share copied music, there is no implied value. It doesn't require any deception. There is no conversion.

      A more accurate analogy would be to sell your copies for cash, and no one is doing that.

    7. Re:Danger to freedom by Pichu0102 · · Score: 1

      Any business model that isn't a danger to freedom probably would be against shareholder wishes of said business.

    8. Re:Danger to freedom by leomekenkamp · · Score: 1

      (...) what people can do easily (...)

      So I guess we should just legalise printing counterfeit money, then?

      Do you mean to say you have found a way to easily print money?

      The currency I use (Euro) has very specific ways to prevent me from being able to copy banknotes.

      --
      Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
    9. Re:Danger to freedom by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      I'd say the government is committing the fraud by convincing people that some piece of paper has value beyond that of the paper and ink itself. People making their own money are perhaps assisting in this fraud, but it is a far lessor offense.

      You see, the fraud is beginning to show today. Your money used to be worth X and today it is worth X/2 or maybe X/3. People are beginning to notice and elect politicians that promise them more and more. And how are they going to do that? By printing more worthless money!

      Wouldn't surprise me if the WalMart starts refusing US Currency and takes only gold soon. While its value in US Currency is vastly inflated, it is actually materially worth something.

    10. Re:Danger to freedom by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      I'll bet that Darwin Reedy would share her creative works with anyone that would listen. Check her out.

    11. Re:Danger to freedom by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      I'd say the government is committing the fraud by convincing people that some piece of paper has value beyond that of the paper and ink itself.

      Oh please "currency" is the basis of society. Do you want a barter system? It's pretty hard to carry around live chickens and cows when you want to pay your electric bill.

      Wouldn't surprise me if the WalMart starts refusing US Currency and takes only gold soon.

      You do know that this would be illegal, right?

  6. i'm going to get modded flamebait for this, but by overcaffein8d · · Score: 2, Funny

    does this mean that fair and balanced is good now?

    --
    Those of us who think they know everything annoy those of us who do.
  7. Oh "good news" by tonyray · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Now we can throw them in prison instead of just cutting off their Internet. I don't get it; how is forcing stronger measures good news?

    1. Re:Oh "good news" by janrinok · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because you can't be sent to prison without some kind of judicial process, usually requiring evidence and such like. That wasn't the case with the French law. If you were identified (by whom? with what level of proof? what about facing your accusers?) to be downloading copyrighted material you would be warned twice and the third time be disconnected. Ubuntu is copyrighted material - can I no longer download it using a torrent? I distribute photographs that I have taken via torrents. They are copyrighted material - I own the copyright! Should my family be forbidden to download them because they contravene this proposed law? How would anyone know that I was downloading copyrighted material. It is illegal for ISPs or any other organisation to monitor communications without judicial consent and oversight. It might not be the case in the US, but it is still the law in all EU countries (admittedly, there are a few who are now bending this law to suit themselves but that doesn't change the fact that they ought not to be doing so).

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    2. Re:Oh "good news" by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Because due process is warranted. Previously only the faintest of indication of evidence was enough to get one's internet access cut off. Now content providers will have to show actual evidence of piracy and financial harm. This is much harder.

      So far, when taken to court, in the US, no content provider have been able to convict anybody after appeal.

      But you are right, people are interpreting this as a license to pirate, this is the opposite.

    3. Re:Oh "good news" by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      -The three strike is not about filesharing (for which justice would still be competent), it is about not securing one's line properly (to be precise, it is only what can be infered from the extremely and purposely fuzzy formulation in the law, so it can almost be anything, like using an ISP the government doesn't like, which is my case).
      -They don't have to prove you're guilty since the investigator and the judge will be the same organisation and they'll have a strong incentive to show their efficienty.
      -You can't technically prove you're innocent, but to be sure, there is no way to even try planned in the law, the best you can do is have your case examinated by a judge a couple of years later (with your computer probably seized for investigation during that time).
      -As the law is formulated, there is no real requirement to use the two first steps before suspending the line.

    4. Re:Oh "good news" by janrinok · · Score: 1

      From TFA - the purpose os the 3 strike rule is to curb piracy. Are you suggesting that this law is already being used for an entirely different purpose?

      --
      Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
    5. Re:Oh "good news" by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      That's the common mistake thet the PR that goes around that law (no kidding, they even created web sites) tries to encourage. It really is about not securing one's internet line, something broad and fuzzy enough to strike people suspected of piracy without the need of formal proof (the music industry is behind the law, so yes, it will be the first goal), but also pretty much anyone for any reason of the day.

  8. Can we get some of that in New Zealand? by nzgeek · · Score: 3, Informative

    Can we get some of this "common-sense" in New Zealand please?

    "Anti-piracy" 3-strikes was railroaded into our copyright law (section s92a) after select committee hearings and due process. Then the Minister had the gall to complain that all the moaners should have got involved in the process.

    1. Re:Can we get some of that in New Zealand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      In New Zealand the minister responsible for this, Judth Tizard, was kicked out the parliament after losing in the recent NZ election. Many people in the IT community worked against her.

      Getting kicked out didn't stop her from going on a radio tirade about how it was necessary to remove due process and oversight by cutting off people who *might* be infringing. Yes, she even says "might". She actually believes she's doing this for the good of New Zealand and many other people in power do too.

      The law will come into effect in February 2009 after a parliamentary vote so we've got until then to change minds. People against these parts of the law should join the groups working against this such as Internet NZ and the NZOSS.

      The Labour party (which she was part of) lost the last election and now the National party are in power. It remains to be seen whether they're going to do better but we can only try.

    2. Re:Can we get some of that in New Zealand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a friend who is looking at becoming a member of the Greens here, being very impressed with their IT policy, among other things. Start emailing and writing to whoever you can in the government. I'll try to get something sent out myself today. I was in China at the time this law was brought in... And come back to this. It's disgusting!

    3. Re:Can we get some of that in New Zealand? by Petrushka · · Score: 1

      The Greens are the most liberal party in NZ in many respects, but no party's nose is clean. Remember the Greens were part of the coalition that took away freedom of speech about advocating political parties. Independently of that, they also want to start adding legal controls over what kind of entertainment can enter people's homes.

      On the other wing, I was at a pre-election town hall meeting where the ACT candidate told the voters to their faces -- explicitly and openly -- that ACT wants to do away with their personal privacy altogether. (Two minutes later he had the gall to claim that ACT is a "liberal" party.)

      There are no serious political parties that actually stand for personal liberty. Well, there's Alliance, and the Legalise Cannabis party; like I said, no serious parties.

    4. Re:Can we get some of that in New Zealand? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      How is the average person supposed to know what laws exist until they are prosecuted by them?

      It's not like politicians tell the voter what they are doing or plan to do.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    5. Re:Can we get some of that in New Zealand? by freedom_india · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Get the minister's son/daughter indicted, convicted and sentenced to 60 days in a state jail.
      Nothing repeals a law faster than that.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  9. France and Baseball by MosesJones · · Score: 5, Funny

    I mean come on, it should be struck down on the basis that France doesn't even play Baseball so a "3 strikes" rule is just the American Imperialism that they are always railing against.

    Now a "7 Course Meal and you are out" sounds a much more French rule to have.

    On the copyright side of course its quite odd that France, which has a set of music that only the French want to listen to (Manau excepted) is worried about piracy, hell if more people listen to some of their artists they should be glad.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:France and Baseball by o'reor · · Score: 1

      It's a matter of taste. Not only do I prefer (by far) Denez Prigent's music when it comes to french-made electronic celtic music, but it also seems that Manau ran into trouble with Alan Stivell, who sued them for plagiarism. Talk about copyrights...

      With that being said, though being a French guy myself, I don't care very much for the current generation of French artists.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
    2. Re:France and Baseball by jalet · · Score: 1

      You know, Georges Brassens excepted, most well known "French" "artists" came (there's no good french singer still alive) either from Quebec or from Belgium... BTW there are some english translations of Georges Brassens songs, you should either listen to them or read their lyrics...

      --
      Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
    3. Re:France and Baseball by Chrisje · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I hate to say this, but the French have excellent:

      - Chansons: Edith Piaf, Serge Gainsbourg
      - Hip-Hop: FFF
      - Techno: Air
      - Lounge: St Germain (the artist, not the compilations
      - Gypsy Jazz: Paris Combo
      - Pop: Nouvelle Vague

      And this is just my extraordinarily limited knowledge of French music. Granted, the pickings are slimmer than in the Music Export Top 3, the US, the UK and Sweden, but still there's a lot of interesting things going on there.

      Same thing in Germany with people like Luna, the Notwist, Die Fantastischen Vier, Jan Delay. Then it's the same with Norway with people like Morten Abel, Kinny & Horne, Kings of Convenience, Röyksopp and in particular Madrugada. Hell, even Austria has Waldeck and Kruder & Dorfmeister.

      With a name like Moses Jones I don't know where the hell you're from, but I suggest you extricate your head from your arse before you make such statements the next time.

      And no, I'm not French.

    4. Re:France and Baseball by MosesJones · · Score: 2, Funny

      I lived in the country for 2 years working in a multi-national organisation, and have a reasonable French music collection. One day we had a competition of "who is the worst at" and for the music category it came down to France v Germany in the final.

      The french contender put forwards the amount of average 50 year old crooners and Johnny Halliday who all have their crowds of 17-20 year old models in the background all the time.

      The german contender pulled out the winning plug however by pointing out that not only is "oompha" music played on German TV but that their music is so had that they.... BOUGHT DAVID HASSELHOFF CDs.

      The issue with French music (and German) isn't that there aren't some reasonable things in there, its that most of it is just stunningly bad and makes bad UK or American music seem like the Beatles, Stones or Beach Boys. As a French colleague said "if your Uncle sang like that at a party you'd be embarrassed". The occasional stars aren't even allowed to shine that brightly in France amongst the turgid nonsense of French "Pop" and Drunk Uncle music.

      --
      An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    5. Re:France and Baseball by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With a name like Moses Jones I don't know where the hell you're from, but I suggest you extricate your head from your arse before you make such statements the next time.

      He's entitled to his (correct) opinion, so how about you take your own advice, son.

      If you're not French, you must be Belgian.. probably from Wallonia even. I never liked those motherfuckers or their waffles.

    6. Re:France and Baseball by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      Now a "7 Course Meal and you are out" sounds a much more French rule to have.

      How about "three bottles of wine and you're out cold under the table". A good Sydney Syrup will do it to anyone...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    7. Re:France and Baseball by frenchbedroom · · Score: 1
      Well, I'm French and I can pad that list a little :
    8. Re:France and Baseball by leomekenkamp · · Score: 1

      - Techno: Air

      I am sorry, but I like Air as well as techno, but Air certainly ain't techno. Some seem to agree.

      --
      Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
    9. Re:France and Baseball by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      He who had three bottles of wine and passes out cold under the table is NOT French.
      Seems you know little about the French and very little about their wine.
      And Sydney Syrup? WTF is that? The Aussie Wines??? Ha ha ha... Billabong wines??? Not even Australians drink that crap. Its meant to be exported to those suckers who think kangaroos walk in Sydney.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    10. Re:France and Baseball by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 1

      France doesn't even play Baseball

      Excusez-moi?

    11. Re:France and Baseball by nutshell42 · · Score: 1
      Typical American imperialistic thinking that you immediatly assume they're talking about baseball.

      If you'd ever tried to use any of France's public services you'd have known that the French have enormous experience when it comes to strikes.

      Btw., the Italians are even more happy to strike for any reason at all so the idea that you'd be out after just three strikes would be preposterous. Instead, they make you an offer you can't refuse.

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
  10. Interesting tags by zappepcs · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    suddenoutbreakofcommonsense seems appropriate, though when a skydiver is hurtling toward the ground, and waits a long time to open their chute, the observers on the ground do not say "wow, a sudden outbreak of common sense." Typically what is uttered is more along the lines of "holy shit, that was fucking close"

    But you be the judge

  11. All countries take heed: Shows power of EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The French government wanted to implement a law.

    The EU government rejected that.

    Result: The French government is unable to pass the law.

    What's the justification? 'Right to information'? Everyone knows that's bullshit in disguise - because anything can be justified, and anything repressed, by interpretation of general clauses of rights.

    1. Re:All countries take heed: Shows power of EU by Nursie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Countries can't make laws contradicting treaties they've signed up to, or laws they've helped bring into being across the whole EU.

      What exactly is the problem with this? It's the EU doing what it was supposed to do.

    2. Re:All countries take heed: Shows power of EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Those are simple answers to complex questions. You simplify away the fact that treaties are written as generalities subject to interpretation, by a court that is not French.

      If the treaty specified that such a law could not be written, then the law would clearly not have been proposed. Or, the treaty not signed in the form it was. QED, the treaty limits the country in unintended and unforeseen ways.

      The problem is that a formerly sovereign state is unable to enact laws. Part of me is shocked that it's made so light of - part of me knows it's intentionally part of the confidence game to present it as no big deal.

    3. Re:All countries take heed: Shows power of EU by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "If the treaty specified that such a law could not be written, then the law would clearly not have been proposed."

      Nonsense. people make contradictory laws all the time.

      What about the US constitution? There's been lots of stuff struck down as "Unconstitutional" by the supreme court.

      "Or, the treaty not signed in the form it was."

      What?

      "QED, the treaty limits the country in unintended and unforeseen ways."

      Just like laws are always interpreted to the letter by the judiciary and legal professions rather than always sticking to the initial intent of the legislators? Same game.

      "The problem is that a formerly sovereign state is unable to enact laws."

      Yes, when they signed the various treaties they gave away the right to make french laws that contradict EU law. Like a state joining the US. Exactly the same. Not only was this done willingly, but the french actually lead the charge.

      "Part of me is shocked that it's made so light of"

      You need to get out more.

      "part of me knows it's intentionally part of the confidence game to present it as no big deal."

      Ok, actually maybe you need to go and see a psychiatrist.

      This is exactly what the EU is for. Why is it scary to you that it is doing its job? Is it scary to you that Texas can be overridden by the fedral government of the US? Whilst the EU is considerably less of a state than the USA, it has some resemblance to one and the countries involved willing ceded power to create a central government. Especially the French.

    4. Re:All countries take heed: Shows power of EU by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Countries can't make laws contradicting treaties they've signed up to, or laws they've helped bring into being across the whole EU.Sure they can. EU countries ignore EU laws all the time and just make their own when they please.

      The EU can't do anything about it. Poland is one great example of this.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    5. Re:All countries take heed: Shows power of EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the international treaties are signed on condition that they are accepted by the parliament (or similar institution) later.

  12. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by neutrino38 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I read the blog post and I find the title a litle inaccurate: the EU level clearly rejected the three strike principle to be extended as a EU directive but it is unclear if the decision will force France to back down on its national law.

    It may need a directive to specify that this kind of approach is forbidden. Then, it may need a formal complain from the EU commission or a French citizen size the European Court of Justice to have the law revoked or modified.

    The parent post also mentionned prison here. But the law was specifically designed to avoid sending people to prison for what is a minor offence.

    Personnaly, I don't find the principle of three strikes and you are disconnected so problematic as it looks like road regulationsBUT there are some serious issues with the current implementations:

    • First and not least, the organisation that is in charge of monitoring and issueing warnings and disconnection order is some kind of extra judicial stuff. I believe that the final text include justice intervention but it is very thin ...
    • Secondly, the ability to sue file transfer software editor is just ridiculous. It violates the principle that software is neutral and that it is individuals that perform the acts.

    Ok, I guess my karma will suffer from the opinion above but please, could someone explain we what would be a balanced approach that would enforce right of creators and freedoms of Internet users?

    What are your proposal slashcrowd?

  13. Adelphia did this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Adelphia did this when users get DMCA'ed three times.

  14. As a french citizen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If my gouvernment could surrender to the European Union for this subject, I wouldn't complain :/

    1. Re:As a french citizen by o'reor · · Score: 1

      I second this.

      Oh, and would you mind creating an account and logging in ? I'm tired of Slashdotters portraying French people as cowards, anonymous or not.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
    2. Re:As a french citizen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want that changed then you're going to have to go to war with all of Europe over this. Germany did it so stop being cowards. Bonus points for quickly flattening a weaker neighbour like France, oh wait...

    3. Re:As a french citizen by leomekenkamp · · Score: 1

      Alas, even in places that have people with higher than average IQs, there always seems to be enough people who oversimplify things and look for groups to blame for something. Just like the AC sibling above this posting: "France capitulated in WWII, so all the french are cowards."

      Sad, but real.

      --
      Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
  15. Embrace - Extend - Exterminate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. The larger unit invites the smaller unit into membership and collaboration under open and generous terms. Often this is laced with substantial short-term benefits and payouts. Payouts for wine farmers with no conditions attached spring to mind.

    2. The larger unit and smaller unit as a result of this develop cooperative lines of action. A number of people within the smaller unit will have their livelihoods directly dependent on those cooperative lines. Cultures develop around preserving them and recognising the results of them.

    3. The larger unit will over time have created a large number of cooperative dependencies. If the (resemblance of) the smaller unit wishes to break any of these, the ultimatum given is that it would mean the breaking of all of them, and reversing them to the detriment the smaller unit instead. The core of the smaller unit, ex those who have developed into cooperative positions with the larger whole, finds their power to make decisions have vanished.

    Leadership problems together with uncertainty over the goodness of the alternative status quo combined with the badness of the certain pains that would be gotten if severing ties means that popular support is either in favour of keeping ties or unfocused and easily dismissed.

    People in Europe should get used to seeing their governments become irrelevancies.

  16. 3 Strikes? by longacre · · Score: 5, Funny

    Perhaps they rejected it simply because Europeans didn't understand the "3 strikes" baseball metaphor. They should adopt a "three yellow cards leads to a red card" policy.

    1. Re:3 Strikes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Acutally, it's only supposed to be two yellows before you get a red card.

      Unless you're playing for Croatia.

    2. Re:3 Strikes? by Woy · · Score: 1

      Woooosh!

      --
      "If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
    3. Re:3 Strikes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a geek and don't care for sports.. but it's actually "2 yellow -> 1 red".

    4. Re:3 Strikes? by kramerd · · Score: 1

      You dont seem to understand football.

      Its one yellow card, then a second yellow car = a red card policy.

      Perhaps a better comparative metaphor would be if a pitcher hits a player twice with a pitch, the batter will run up and and fight the pitcher, thus getting him thrown out of the game.

    5. Re:3 Strikes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad it's 2 yellow cards that lead to a red card.

    6. Re:3 Strikes? by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      Dude i watched football just yesterday and there weren't any cards, just these flaggy things that got thrown down every so often. ;)

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    7. Re:3 Strikes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two yellows make a red.

  17. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it is unclear if the decision will force France to back down on its national law.

    Yes in the linked PDF I don't see a clear repudiation of this technique.

  18. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by HuguesT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At the moment there is a EU directive in place that is contrary to the French proposal. This is not stopping the French government from going ahead with their proposal though. It can still become French law within a few short months.

    Eventually it will be struck down through citizen's actions (suit to the European Court resulting in fines) or through a change of government. Governments can be very very stubborn.

    The only hope in France is to convince a majority of French representatives that this is a bad proposal before it is voted in.

  19. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by Elektroschock · · Score: 1

    As I wrote above watch the ACTA process where it is going to slip in again. An international trade treaty with the US.

  20. Fuck you by skulgnome · · Score: 0, Troll

    I seek whatever the fuck I want, and you can shut the hell up about it.

  21. "3 Strikes" Law - revised by bestalexguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Anyone who surreptitiously installs a rootkit in anyone else's computers thrice shall be kicked out of business"

    1. Re:"3 Strikes" Law - revised by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      "Anyone who surreptitiously installs a rootkit in anyone else's computers thrice shall be kicked out of business"

      In that case, it should be "Anyone who surreptitiously installs a rootkit on anyone else's computer should be locked up." Yeah, Sony, I'm talking about you.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  22. European Parliament elections by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 4, Informative

    European Parliament elections are coming up soon, have yet to find a resource to help pick decent candidates to elect, reward these kinds of decisions...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2009

    1. Re:European Parliament elections by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1

      I finally found a resource to help make intelligent decisions when voting in European elections, an excellent one at that:

      http://www.laquadrature.net/en

      Check out the Political memory resource:
      http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/Political_Memory

      especially the "List of recorded votes" section to see who voted for what - before you reward them with your vote for them.

      Slashdotters will probably be interested in the Telecoms Package section as well: http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/Telecoms_Package

  23. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, I guess my karma will suffer from the opinion above but please, could someone explain we what would be a balanced approach that would enforce right of creators and freedoms of Internet users?

    I think you've managed to ignore a far more important point. Why should government enforce the rights of creators? If they don't like what people are doing with their creations, then sue them. Oh, people are doing it by the millions and there's no practical way to sue them all? Tough ... time for societies and content creators to adjust to a new reality, and not try to force the old one upon the vast majority of the world's citizens: people that don't want it.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  24. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The difference between this and road regulations, is that breaking the road rules can result in people being killed or seriously injured, as well as significant costs to individuals.
    Copyright infringement on the other hand, typically only harms large corporations, and the actual level of harm it does is often massively overstated (most people would never have bought all the media they copied, simply due to cost if nothing else).

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  25. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by Thiez · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > Secondly, the ability to sue file transfer software editor is just ridiculous. It violates the principle that software is neutral and that it is individuals that perform the acts.

    With some regret I must point out that in the EU, this is not without precedent. Germany has banned 'hacking tools':

    http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/31/1629259
    http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/13/0218246

    It would appear not everyone agrees about the 'software is neutral' thing.

  26. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why should government enforce the rights of creators? If they don't like what people are doing with their creations, then sue them. Oh, people are doing it by the millions and there's no practical way to sue them all? Tough ...

    Your ideas about about ten years ahead of where most people are and they will sound extremist to them. Many politicians still see copyright as property and therefore infringement as theft. Copyright as a government granted monopoly to create scarcity is far too complex for them. They see redressing copyright in favour of fair use as being government intervention in a free market of creativity rather than appropriate regulation of a resource to encourage economy and free speech. They still see it as balancing the majority rule with minority rights, and that copyright infringement is minority rights infringement as the mob seek to steal and in response civil rights must be suspended.

    Instead it's much better to talk about fairness and the right to trial, and due process being removed by 3 strikes than anything you're talking about. Your ideas are too extreme and are not persuasive right now.

    The best communication builds upon existing ideas and directs them in compelling ways. Communication is about having a sensitivity for your audience and where they're coming from. Understanding the law makers and the public is the difficult part and going too far at once will scare them off.

    Be smarter.

  27. Yes and No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the one hand, the USA was never intended, as is Constitutionally barred, from having direct power over citizens and from interfering with state laws. The US federal government does not have the Constitutional authority to 'strike down' a state law. The EU, on the other hand, started out huge. The crafters of the EU constitution never had any visions of a government strictly limited to a select few tasks, such as common defense. The EU "constitution" treaties basically permit the EU government to do anything it likes. That's the state the US federal government is in right now, but it's only de facto, it was never intended that way, and it took awhile to get there. The EU is an openly totalitarian central government right from the start.

    1. Re:Yes and No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US federal government does not have the Constitutional authority to 'strike down' a state law.

      Bzzzzzzt. You fail it - US state laws may not violate the US Constitution, and thus the US Supreme Court can and may strike down state laws.

  28. They do not enforce rights by plnix0 · · Score: 1

    Copyrights do not protect the rights of creators. There is no such thing as "intellectual property". Copyright and patent laws are in fact a violation of property rights, as they force individual owners of property from using and manipulating their own property as they choose. Look up Stephan Kinsella.

  29. French Connection Apple // games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So their policy hasn't changed since before the fall of the Berlin wall? I didn't believe them when this argument came up over The French Connection (engine re-used for ghostbusters) on the Apple //e. I thought it was censorship over a game involving french police selling drugs, not over piracy over unpaid licensing fees...(for some other french game?) but now I believe them.

  30. more info here! by zanfr · · Score: 0

    pleaselook at my blog kruhm.org if you want more detailed info, many posts about it really

  31. actually by zanfr · · Score: 2, Informative

    the french gov is still planning to force feed hadopi despite the EU... more info here (there are more tags for it but this is the latest stuff from my blg) http://kruhm.org/tag/christine-albanel/

  32. Yes by plnix0 · · Score: 1

    So the wrong side won the US civil war? Just checking. You're allowed to say 'yes,' I know it wasn't really about slavery (though you have to ask yourself whether the revolution wasn't, given the timing).

    Yes, of course the wrong side won. Of course, neither side was libertarian, but the North was the aggressor against the South. It was the North which invaded and sought to conquer another country, and the South which was defending its own territory, attempting to repel a foreign invader.

    It also wasn't a civil war, of course, since a civil war is one between factions in the same country, vying for control of the same government or territory. The political bonds between the North and the South had been severed, therefore any war between them could not, by definition, have been a 'civil war'.

    By "the revolution", what do you mean? Are you referring to the revolution of 1776? No, it wasn't about slavery. Or are you calling the secession of the Southern states prior to the "civil war" a revolution? It wasn't one. In a revolution, one faction seeks control of, or seeks to change, a government. In a secession, a party to that government simply seeks to leave. The secession was not about slavery either. Some said it was, even at the time, but tariffs were a much greater factor. The tariffs at the time were a proportionately greater burden on the south. In his inaugural address, Lincoln threatened invasion of the south if the tariffs were not paid.

  33. Laws based on sports analogies? by gemada · · Score: 1

    i can't think of anything more idiotic, except maybe laws based on car analogies.

  34. Its all the drug laws by scientus · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    that bastard Nixon and bastard Regan and bastard Bush, and the other Bush all get states (ie not their money) to house bazillions of inmates on MANDATORY minimum sentences. Mandatory minimums give power to legistators that they are not meant to have and prevent judges from deciding what punishment matches the crimes, regardless of any argument of weather these things should be illegal.

  35. Its not all roses and wine by scientus · · Score: 1

    The EU in held of legally by this massive "constitution" that nobody has read. It basically tries to define as many right as possible simply so the EU can try to dictate on them, and attempts to take power away from the countries in order to divide and conqueror. It has the potential to be a sharp double-edged sword, and lead to a situation like the US where Top government has very little responsibility and is generally a huge burden on the states. The EU needs a seperation of powers between states and the EU like the US constition and needs to defend them.

  36. Merge w/chinese wall? by lpq · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If AU is going with a firewall, sounds like they may be looking to merge with China.

    You can see those controlling tendencies expressed through Rupert's Media outlets in USA. 'Conservative' (exploitive) capitalists in the US and AU have more in common with the dictatorship in China than most EU countries, right now. Capitalists always look to flourish where they can exploit human capital. It's not clear that capitalism can flourish if it doesn't have some underclass to exploit.

  37. Better to be accurate than alarmist by Garwulf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A lot of half-truths here...

    "Many years ago? Steamboat Willie is still under copyright! The man has been dead for half a century, yet his first work, written when cars needed to be started by hand and antibiotics were even a dream in a doctor's eye, is STILL under copyright! Is there ANYONE here that can stand up and with a straight face say that is fair?"

    I'll take that action. Here in Canada it's life plus 50 years - that's long enough for the children and grandchildren - in short, the family members who knew the creator in life - to enjoy the legacy. Then it is turned over to the public domain. And it is fair for your children and grandchildren to enjoy the fruits of your labour.

    In the United States, it's life plus 70 years, if I remember correctly (it could be life plus 75). That was put into place to account for the increased lifespan...well, not quite true. It was put in place in Europe to account for the increased lifespan. It was put in place in the United States because European legislation stated that length of copyright would be determined by country of origin, and that meant that any American intellectual property would go out of copyright sooner, and make it harder for Europeans to invest into American IP (such as a movie, etc.).

    "But thanks to the outright bribery of politicians all over the globe it has long since quit being a contract and has become instead a way for evil multinational corporations to print money for all eternity."

    You've fallen into a common trap here - you're mistaking abuse of a law for the law itself. They are not the same thing. You're also misunderstanding the importance of copyright. So, I'll explain it here.

    Copyright is a set of laws that provide a legal framework that allow creative artists to negotiate with those who would distribute their work, providing protection to both sides to prevent one from screwing over the other before a contract is signed. However, if a creative artist signs all of their rights away, they lose that protection. Hence the ability for abuse by the RIAA, etc. It's a horrifying situation, I agree, but it is not endemic to copyright. It is far more endemic to sociopathic corporations, and copyright is only one of many laws that get abused.

    "When copyrights exist for longer than most humans lifetimes they cease to be anything more than a complete stranglehold over our entire culture."

    Very wrong, particularly when looking at the Internet, of all places. We are drowning in content. And once something is under copyright, such as a book, or play, painting, song, etc., it is always in the best interests of the copyright holder to keep that work available as long as possible. A book that is out of print cannot generate any revenue.

    What determines the availability of a book, song, film, etc., is nothing more than simple economics. It costs money to produce and publish a book (I know - I own a small publishing company). So long as the sales of the book will make money, the book will stay in print. Once the book stops making money, it comes out of print. In fact, if you go to your local bookstore and look at all of those new books, most of them will have an in-print lifespan of less than ten years.

    In fact, the technology that has done more than anything else to maintain culture in the literary world and keep books available is print-on-demand technology, which means that a book can be kept available for sale without requiring warehouse space. That revolutionized the book industry. And it had very little to do with either copyright or the Internet.

    To misquote Serenity, when it comes to the alarmist views of the copyright debate, nothing is as it seems. Copyright is not the grand arena, the pirates are not scrappy heroes against terrible odds, and our culture, far from being under a stranglehold, is bursting at the seams. We are drowning in content, and never has it been so easy to create. The copyright abolitionists and reformers keep referring to some mythical golden

    --
    Robert B. Marks
    Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
    1. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So if a person lives to be 90, which is quite doable with today's tech, we are talking 90+50 for Canada, or 90+70 for the US. And a century and a half+ is actually fair to you? I'm sorry, but are you high? And as for the "children and grandchildren" I have a concept for them: It is called WORK! I know,it is amazing, what a concept! Give me a break!

      Look, just because your grandpa did something in 1938 that didn't suck doesn't give you the right to sponge of it today, anymore than I get to sit on my ass because my grandpa built the bridges that you drive on. And in case you didn't know we already have a way to pass that legacy on to your children and grandchildren: It is called inheritance! But the simple fact is this is NOT about the artist, and you know this. A good 90+% of the artists don't have the rights to their works, because the cartels make you sign those away if you want access to their media outlet monopoly. So I am sorry, but a law that was written to be abused is an abusive law. And I am sorry but you can't honestly think 150+ years is a "fair and reasonable" term for copyrights, can you? I'm willing to bet the vast majority of the population would disagree with you. And if the public refuses to play your little copyright game then it kind of becomes moot, doesn't it?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    2. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Garwulf · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "So if a person lives to be 90, which is quite doable with today's tech, we are talking 90+50 for Canada, or 90+70 for the US. And a century and a half+ is actually fair to you? I'm sorry, but are you high? And as for the "children and grandchildren" I have a concept for them: It is called WORK! I know,it is amazing, what a concept! Give me a break!"

      Boy, this is so close to a Morbo moment...oh, screw it. Morbo?

      "THE ECONOMICS OF CREATIVE ARTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"

      Thank you Morbo.

      Let me lay on a few facts here:

      1. Very few creative artists EVER get to give up their day job. In fact, most creative artists live pretty far below the poverty line. Stephen King is the very rare exception. Their children and grandchildren don't get to live in luxury because they were creative artists - they get a bare trickle of money, if they're lucky.

      2. The lifespan of a work of creative art is frequently under ten years. Most creative artists don't get to profit from their work for their entire lifetimes - they get to see it fade into obscurity.

      3. This may come as a shock to you, but most of the creative artists out there are NOT in the film and music industries. In fact, there are also photographers, painters, sculptors, and writers. And guess what - they do get to keep most of their work. For that matter, what do you think happens to the copyrights of all the original work that goes onto Youtube, Daily Motion, etc., from gifted amateurs?

      "And in case you didn't know we already have a way to pass that legacy on to your children and grandchildren: It is called inheritance!"

      Yep - and copyright allows creative artists to pass their own work and legacy on to their heirs. Now, you might think that is terribly unfair, but as somebody who actually has stuff he wants to pass on when the time comes, my opinion on this is that you can go and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

      "And if the public refuses to play your little copyright game then it kind of becomes moot, doesn't it?"

      And if you'd been paying attention to one of the most important parts of my post, you'd have noticed that the most important parts of copyright have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the public. It has to do with contract negotiations. In fact, most of the action of copyright takes place before the work is ever seen by any member of the public.

      You talk about the abuse of the law, but you're talking about abuse of the smallest part of copyright law. The minute an author comes to me with a book proposal, copyright law kicks in. It keeps the negotiations on even ground, it ensures that I don't screw over the author by taking his work and just publishing it with somebody else's name on it, and it keeps them from screwing me over by handing first publication rights to somebody after they've just signed a contract giving them to me.

      For that matter, ALL of the interaction between the author and the publisher is governed by copyright law, from the editing to the marketing of the book. The public sees the end product - they don't see all the steps that got the book there. Copyright was the framework for every single one of those steps.

      So, whether the public decides to "play my little copyright game" or not is completely irrelevant for almost the entire process. The public simply isn't involved.

      And oh yes...one last point:

      "A good 90+% of the artists don't have the rights to their works, because the cartels make you sign those away if you want access to their media outlet monopoly."

      Have you been paying attention to the news lately? Those media cartels in the recording industry are scrambling because they're in the process of losing their monopolies. Whether an artist signs his/her rights away to his/her work is a choice, and always has been. It's just taken this long for musicians to start seeing past the record label snow job.

      --
      Robert B. Marks
      Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
    3. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      The lifespan of a work of creative art is frequently under ten years.

      This, you write as part of an argument in favour of 150+ year copyrights?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    4. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by optimus2861 · · Score: 1

      I accidentally modded this "Redundant" but it should be "Insightful".

    5. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let us not forget one of the more sinister side effects of this: the complete destruction of large parts of our history. In all likelihood 99% of the film and audio ever shot is on rapidly decaying mediums, yet we the public have no rights to preserve it. So if the IP holders let it rot it is just gone. For an example just look at the film preservation society(can't remember their actual name,sorry). According to them a good deal of works created before 1940 have already disintegrated.

      With a copyright term of 150+ years anyone who would give a damn about seeing a work preserved has long since turned to dust. Hell their kids are probably pushing up the daisies. The medium that the master played back on has been gone for many decades, those with the skill to edit and remaster on such mediums is long dead.....get the picture? Not a really nice picture, is it? For those that want to preserve copyrights I say this: go back to the way it was. For nearly 180 years we had copyrights that worked. NO COPYRIGHT SHOULD LAST LONGER THAN 25 YEARS PERIOD. This gives the author more than enough time to turn a profit on their work. if they can't even make a profit after 2 and a half decades then frankly they suck and should get into another line of work.

      But again, this isn't about artists. This is about greedy, bloodsucking, multinational corporations that are holding our entire culture hostage, nothing more. If we stick with the system as it is the DVD you hold in your hand today won't be out of copyright for a century and a half AT MINIMUM. Think about THAT for a moment. Does anyone think with such an insane amount of copyright that anything that isn't a megahit will actually be preserved a century and a half from now? I am sorry to the above poster, but this is just obscene. There truly are no other words to describe it.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    6. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Garwulf · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Right now, you're sounding like a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. You're taking a possible scenario, and depicting it as an absolute scenario.

      And you are very, very wrong.

      "Let us not forget one of the more sinister side effects of this: the complete destruction of large parts of our history. In all likelihood 99% of the film and audio ever shot is on rapidly decaying mediums, yet we the public have no rights to preserve it. So if the IP holders let it rot it is just gone."

      A big assumption here - you're saying that in all likelihood copyright holders are letting 99% of their work simply rot, rather than championing them. This falls under the "copyright conspiracy to deprive the world of culture" idea, and there's so much wrong with that statement it's hard to figure out where to begin.

      First off, in order for a piece of property in copyright to be of any use to the copyright holder, it has to be available to the public. That means that the copyright holder has to preserve it, make certain that it can be archived properly, etc.

      Second, while the first point is true, it is also true that the majority of books (I use that as the example, because that's what I know best, but also because frankly there are a lot more writers than musicians or filmmakers) have an active lifespan of around 10 years or less. So, why is that? Put simply, it's because in that time, the public stops caring about the work, making it no longer economical for the publisher to keep publishing it.

      Think about that. The public stops caring. The work effectively disappears at that point.

      The argument that you're making is that if the copyright term is shortened, then preservation societies and whatnot will be free to take all of these works and reprint them. But that makes the assumption that those works will even cross their radar in the first place. In fact, since there wasn't enough interest to keep those works circulating to begin with, they're NOT going to be saved, with the rare exception of some gem that gets discovered in a vault somewhere.

      Here's the reality - the longer a work is in copyright, the longer it has an actual champion who cares whether it survives or not. That raises the odds of survival, not lowers them. If you have a 25 year copyright while the average lifespan of a work is less than 10 years, then the majority of works will still vanish into the ether when they hit the public domain. As I just wrote in another post in this thread, for every book that got saved onto Project Gutenberg, there are dozens that didn't, and that we'll never see again.

      "This is about greedy, bloodsucking, multinational corporations that are holding our entire culture hostage, nothing more."

      That's the typical rant right there - the greedy, bloodsucking, multinational corporations holding culture hostage. Well, they're also keeping that culture available and in distribution...and making sure that those old films get preserved and remastered for their DVD releases.

      Try this on for size - rather than foaming at the mouth about the evil corporations and how copyright is taking away our culture, why don't you actually learn a bit about the law, how it works, and what the impact is. Start with this: http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v36-issue1/martin-original1.pdf - it's an examination in a peer-reviewed law journal of how the public domain actually works.

      "This is about greedy, bloodsucking, multinational corporations that are holding our entire culture hostage, nothing more."

      No, it's not. It's about the law, and understanding it. You might want to keep that in mind in the future.

      --
      Robert B. Marks
      Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
    7. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inheritance is the very thing that causes the class structure, the gap between low and middle, middle and high class.
      I don't think the children and grandchildren need to profit doubly from the parent or grandparent's work (Both from money inherited and copyrights inherited)

      Copyright is designed as an incentive for people to innovate.
      As it is, copyright is an incentive for inventive people to innovate once every three to five generations.

    8. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      Most creative work, upon hitting the public domain, has already been out of print for decades.

      Again, how is this an argument for longer copyright periods? Surely if this is a problem, we ought to see to it that works enter the public domain sooner?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    9. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Garwulf · · Score: 1

      The point is that it doesn't matter if the work enters the public domain sooner or later. If the work has gone out of print, it still does a vanishing act. At least if it is in copyright for longer, somebody is there to champion it and try to keep it alive.

      That is the point.

      --
      Robert B. Marks
      Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
    10. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Kazrael · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just to give everyone some perspective on how long 150 years actually is, the Declaration of Independence was signed on July 4, 1776. 232 years ago. Think about how people would have felt had the Declaration been under copyright, with no reproduction allowed until 1925, well after WW1. Does that not strike anyone else as pretty crazy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ww1

      --
      Development notes at http://devscribbles.blogspot.com
    11. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rAMEN.

    12. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Will somebody please give this guy a link to the film bunch that is desperately trying to save the pre 1940 movies like Mae West and WC fields? I'm afraid my Google Fu is sucking the big wet titty ATM. I'm sure once someone else with better Google Fu posts a link you can read it yourself. They have a list on their website of films that we have already lost forever. Why?

      Try to think like a large business for a sec,okay? You are the head of a large film business. You have vaults full of movies you think are "old crap" because they didn't make a profit when first released and don't have a gimmick to sell it with, like "It's a Wonderful Life" which you can repackage every holiday season. Now why on earth would you waste all that money to preserve things which you couldn't figure out how to make a profit on when it was new? The correct answer is you wouldn't. Because the shareholders only care about history as far as the quarterly earnings report and it will be very hard to justify such a capital expense when you don't know how to profitize it. So you let it set for the next CEO, who lets it set for the next guy,etc. Only problem is one day somebody opens the can and all you have is dust. Bye Bye movie.

      And I know how the law works, thank you very much. it is called money. For nearly 180 years we had copyright law that worked. Then came the Sono Bono act and the DMCA. Have you looked at who donated money to those bills? Who lobbied the congress and senate and threw money around like it was going out of style? But you already know this. You already know that every public advocacy group was simply ignored and this crap was ramrodded through.

      But lucky for me I don't have to debate this with you. You want to know why? because the children of the net don't play your little reindeer games,that's why. Last year they gave the little "we luv copyrights" papers and lecture at my nephew's school. When he told me this as I was walking up to him and his buddies I asked them "So what do you think of movies and record companies?" All those wonderfully little subversive children said variations on "greedy pigs!". They have seen it costs 40K to fill up their iPod and think it is BS so they just don't play the "imaginary property" game. So unless you plan to lock up the huge amounts of children and adults that don't play your game then you'll simply have to change. The horse and buggy business is dead. So are 78 records. Change with the times or enjoy your slow death. But those of us who don't want copyrights completely destroyed will be pushing for a return for the 25 year fair terms. But if you honestly think you can control the flow of progress by creating crazy laws,well good luck with that. And you keep saying "the law" like that makes it right. News flash, it don't. And if the majority of the public refuses to follow a law then it is time to change it. Don't you agree?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:Better to be accurate than alarmist by Garwulf · · Score: 1

      "Try to think like a large business for a sec,okay? You are the head of a large film business. You have vaults full of movies you think are "old crap" because they didn't make a profit when first released and don't have a gimmick to sell it with, like "It's a Wonderful Life" which you can repackage every holiday season. Now why on earth would you waste all that money to preserve things which you couldn't figure out how to make a profit on when it was new? The correct answer is you wouldn't. Because the shareholders only care about history as far as the quarterly earnings report and it will be very hard to justify such a capital expense when you don't know how to profitize it. So you let it set for the next CEO, who lets it set for the next guy,etc. Only problem is one day somebody opens the can and all you have is dust. Bye Bye movie."

      This is my last reply on this subject, as I don't think you're likely to be swayed by any actual facts.

      I do own a business. And I come from a family of business owners. We may not be a mega-corporation, but many of the principles are the same. My terminology might be different, but the concepts are essentially right here.

      You have two major kinds of revenue streams. You have your primary revenue streams, and your secondary revenue streams. To take a big business publishing example:

      Primary revenue stream - Stephen King novels
      Secondary revenue streams - midlist novels and older reprints

      The primary revenue stream is the "sugar daddy" - the revenue stream that essentially pays for most of the company. But that's not the only revenue - what happens if the primary falters? So you have the secondary as well, which is more of a shotgun approach. You can afford to have the secondaries do less than stellar sales, because of the primary. And, the secondary provides the safety net you need if the primary goes down.

      Applying that to companies like Universal and Paramount:

      Primary revenue streams - current blockbusters
      Secondary revenue streams - DVDs and older films

      Now, you're talking as though the older films are simply deemed unprofitable and let to die. But that's not true - there's an active restoration effort in place across the board because there's a very large market for these older films. Film restoration is very lucrative work right now.

      Here's an article on it from the Hollywood Reporter: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=2053173

      Here's a more recent article by the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/7525143.stm

      And here's a Wikipedia entry on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_preservation

      Now, I have to wonder a few things about this film preservation society's "statistics" - what was their source? When were they gathered? Was it before the restoration effort began or after? And to what degree is it propaganda? After all, it's a lot easier to get donations when people are afraid of losing their film history, rather than pointing out that film studios are working their asses off to preserve their libraries.

      In this entire conversation, you have been functioning in half-truths, pointing to something vaguely alarming and declaring that a business model is dead, or that evil corporations are behind it, without bothering to look at the entire picture. Even in this most recent post, you've tried to hold up the fact that it costs $40,000 to fill up an iPod as some great alarming truth...but it's $40,000 at $.99 per song. What it actually means is that an iPod can hold a huge amount of music, not that the price per song is unreasonable.

      Try this one on for size. Try reading the Berne Convention. Try reading up on Eldred vs. Ashcroft, and WHY the case got demolished on every

      --
      Robert B. Marks
      Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
  38. Obligatory..... by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 0, Troll

    The French lose.....again.

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
    1. Re:Obligatory..... by DanJ_UK · · Score: 1

      Haha; Yesss...

      --
      - Dan
    2. Re:Obligatory..... by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      No, we are winning against our government with the help of friendly foreing countries ...again.

    3. Re:Obligatory..... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      So you agree that the 1940-44 occuptation was "liberating" France from its leadership (Led by Ms.Petain)?
      I know i will modded down, but i really mean this. French people in 1930s didn't like their Revolving Government. Doesn't mean that Hitler and Goebbels were liberators, were they?
      You, French, of all the people should know that taking foreign country's help to protest against your government leads nowehere.
      Protest internally against your government, burn books and underwear of your ministers, but please, please don't say or invite foreigners to help you fight against your own government.
      You dishonor the memories of those who lost their lives in the Revolution.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    4. Re:Obligatory..... by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      You, French, of all the people should know that taking foreign country's help to protest against your government leads nowehere.

      It worked in Britain. Having taken a dislike to the king, certain powers behind the throne invited the Dutch to invade and replace him. When the Dutch army arrived, most of the British army didn't turn up, and those that did sided with the invaders. As did the navy. The regime change was handled remarkably smoothly.

      Well, in England at least. Scotland gave the new king some trouble. And Ireland, well... ask there about King William III and you'll find some colourful opinions.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    5. Re:Obligatory..... by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      If one thing reunited the french people in the 30's (that indeed was a very interesting period on socio-political ground with the opposition between a rising socialism in the working classes and conservative middle/high classes, opposition that did not stop during the war and is still a major component of french political life, even if the exchanges are now more polite than they used to be), it was a visceral dislike for the germans.
      In 1939, The french government declared war to Germany as the consequence to the Poland invasion, but the french army doctrine, inherited from WWI strategies, totally failed against the blitzkrieg.
      After the defeat, the french government fell, the northen half of France was annexed by Germany and, in the south half (with the new capital in Vichy), the Marechal Petain took the direction of the new government, with no particular initial public outcry, after all, Petain was a former WWI hero and popular nationalist politician. It soon turned out he was also getting senile and unable/unwilling to prevent his government to be overzealous with the german occupants.

      Now that this historical introduction is over, I'd like to use it to point out that by "friendly foreing countries", I was mainly refering to GB, USA & Canada, that stood up against tyrany and provided the majority of the troops and almost all the equipment that allowed the french libration during the second half of 1944.

      Oh, and BTW, for the particular situation TFA was refering to, France is member of the UE, and an important part of the UE is to have consistent laws between the member countries, so when the european parliament says that a proposed french law is wrong because it goes against the european human right treaty that France has signed, it is good because it means that french citizen that would be victim of that law could seek reparation against the french government in the european court of justice, that has autority to condemn governments (somehow like your supreme court, except that each government only provides a tiny minority of the judges), that's only a good check and balance mechanism at work (going from soap to jury box, and not directly jumping to ammo box as you seem to recommend), and nothing to be Godwinned.

    6. Re:Obligatory..... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      If one thing reunited the french people in the 30's

      WRONG.
      It was tiredness, and a penchant to AVOID war at any cost in 1930s.

      1939, The french government declared war to Germany as the consequence to the Poland invasion,

      Which it did when forced to do by Britain. The French wanted to avoid war at all costs. That is why they were prepared to let Hitler retake Ruhr and Saar. When Hitler moved his troops into Ruhr, they were under strict orders to scoot back to Germany if France or Britain attacked them. Unfortunately the French did not bother.
      GB, USA and Britain provided most of the equipment and they did attack German-occupied France.
      But they did it, not because they wanted to liberate France. They did it primarily because Stalin and his General Zhukov were hitting Hitler so hard that Hitler was rolling down the hill fast. If allowed, USSR could have won the war single handedly although it would have taken longer.
      So, remember one thing: No one, except you can help your country men fight against your tyrannic government.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  39. more... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2 more related developments on this situation today, covered on http://www.kruhm.org/

  40. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by pacinpm · · Score: 1

    Personnaly, I don't find the principle of three strikes and you are disconnected so problematic as it looks like road regulations[...]

    It "looks like" but it's nothing alike. It's more lik a banning someone from using public roads instead of invalidating his driver's licence.

    If you want it to be like road regulation they should ban the usage of P2P program which was used by the offender. So if you used Gnutella you can't use it for a year.

  41. EU goes: by noundi · · Score: 2, Funny

    STRIKE THREE! France, you're out! :D

    --
    I am the lawn!
  42. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

    Why should government enforce the rights of creators?

    Why should governments enforce the rights of anybody, really? Because, you know, that's exactly what they're there for. Or should we resort to mob rules to enforce rights?

  43. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by jambox · · Score: 1

    Assuming copyright continues to exist over the next decade or so, you've got the choice between it being enforced by the government, as with speeding fines and so on, or handled by civil cases brought by private companies.

    If it's the government, punishment would be limited to a small fine or disconnection. If it's private civil cases you could end up hounded by lawyers and sued into oblivion like Jammie Thomas.

    Either approach suffers from the extreme difficulty in proving someone actually broke the copyright in any meaningful way. Civil courts can just guess at what's most likely but if it's criminal law then you could just take it to court where they would need some nasty extra legislation to make anything stick. Again, this looks a lot like speed camera laws in the UK.

    So in answer to your question, I think they just need to recognise that people are going to copy some files and mostly get away with it, just like people are mostly still getting away with speeding and are just careful to watch out for cameras!

    --
    You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
  44. Why "should" they, or why "do" they? by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why should government enforce the rights of creators

    Here's one big reason: Because in many of the countries in-question, they've buggered things up so badly that the majority of their exports are now "virtual" goods. All the physical stuff is for the most part produced in places such as China, India, etc.

    The domestic markets that *do* product goods, such as the auto-industry and others, have driven into the ground by piss-poor management.

    So really, these collective governments have about two choices:

    (a) Start pushing to start *producing* quality physical products domestically again.

    (b) Push idiotic laws upon your own citizens, and through foreign citizens through treaties, to prop up a model which treats virtual goods the same as physical.

  45. My rights to culture ... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    ... superceed your rights to revenue. I guess that says it all.

    Don't like it? Don't publish in digital form, or any form that can easily be converted to digital form. State-sanctioned revenue-zeroing is the fast way to eliminate revenue from "the Information Society". I don't know about you, but if is it available for free, I'm not paying.

    Then we can rely on the Star Trek replicators to make sure we all eat.

  46. Really? by neutrino38 · · Score: 1

    Waow!

    While it is understandable that prople may complain that big media / entertainment companies abuse their dominant position and lead to a price point that is unacceptable, it is difficult to me to accept that no creator deserve any protection

    So writer's book can be copied and sold all over the street. Same thing for musicians. Also software makers (companies and individual) have to recourse if they decide to go closed source and make an honest living?

    So you are basically against making money from creations? The world that you aspire would be only based on fabrication and distribution and private and personnal leisure. Very dull indeed.

    Sorry. As much as I am against major companies milking their customers, I cannot accept such extreme and short sighted position on the argument that people wants it. Everybody want free lunches but at the end of the day someone has to grow the vegetables and raise the cow.

    I am aware that there are some proponent of the "gift based economy" but it does not see it applicable here on a systematic base. The major devlopment of arts in Europe started during Renaissance as there were wealthy mécÃnes ready to PAY artists. By giving up any protection to creators, you would cause that kind of systems to be reinstated. Only a small and wealthy elite would pay for private concerts or other cultural events. Neat progress!

    1. Re:Really? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      While it is understandable that prople may complain that big media / entertainment companies abuse their dominant position and lead to a price point that is unacceptable, it is difficult to me to accept that no creator deserve any protection

      Why must people always go to the extremes? I said nothing whatsoever about eliminating copyright. Nothing. Zip. Nada. What I did say is that it's a very BAD IDEA for big government to be subverted to performing law enforcement activities for private-sector organizations, ones which are (so far as the U.S. is concerned) foreign entities anyway. They have the same rights under copyright law as you and I do, yet they want to have government perform monitoring for any infringement, real, potential or imagined, conscript ISPs to serve as copyright cops, and generally restrict any use of the Internet to what they feel is acceptable. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE, and is itself in direct contravention to the basic mandate of copyright.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  47. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    Why should government enforce the rights of creators?

    Why should governments enforce the rights of anybody, really? Because, you know, that's exactly what they're there for. Or should we resort to mob rules to enforce rights?

    You entirely miss the point. The laws already on the books provide remedies for copyright infringement, it's just the that copyright owner has to be the one to go to court to defend his or her rights. Hence the RIAA lawsuit mill. That's a far different affair from having big government perform that function for them at taxpayer expense. I don't think you really understand the issues here, but this is very serious.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  48. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    Your ideas about about ten years ahead of where most people are and they will sound extremist to them.

    I doubt that very much. And (as I've already repeated twice in this thread) I am not promoting the end of copyright. What I AM saying is that government has no place providing wide-scale law enforcement services to private entities at taxpayer expense. That's what I'm talking about. That, and the fact that copyright, as it has existed for so long, is not sustainable in the Internet era without seeing the kind of overreaching laws and unreasonable extensions of government power that are going on all over the world. Believe me, when you tell people who are accustomed to doing something en masse that they can't any longer, and furthermore they'll be royally screwed when they do ... well. They'll understand.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  49. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by plnix0 · · Score: 1

    I doubt that very much. And (as I've already repeated twice in this thread) I am not promoting the end of copyright.

    Why not? You should. Copyright is immoral as it is inherently a denial of legitimate property rights.

  50. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by plnix0 · · Score: 1

    Why should government enforce the rights of creators? If they don't like what people are doing with their creations, then sue them. Oh, people are doing it by the millions and there's no practical way to sue them all? Tough ...

    Your ideas about about ten years ahead of where most people are and they will sound extremist to them. Many politicians still see copyright as property and therefore infringement as theft. Copyright as a government granted monopoly to create scarcity is far too complex for them. They see redressing copyright in favour of fair use as being government intervention in a free market of creativity rather than appropriate regulation of a resource to encourage economy and free speech. They still see it as balancing the majority rule with minority rights, and that copyright infringement is minority rights infringement as the mob seek to steal and in response civil rights must be suspended.

    Instead it's much better to talk about fairness and the right to trial, and due process being removed by 3 strikes than anything you're talking about. Your ideas are too extreme and are not persuasive right now.

    The best communication builds upon existing ideas and directs them in compelling ways. Communication is about having a sensitivity for your audience and where they're coming from. Understanding the law makers and the public is the difficult part and going too far at once will scare them off.

    Be smarter.

    You have some interesting points, but the your major mistake is in referring to copyrighted works as "scarcity". Clearly, something which can be perfectly copied with negligible use of time and resources cannot legitimately be called a scarce good. This is much of the problem with the copyright system itself. (Another issue is that anything non-physical simply cannot be property, by definition, but that's obviously related.) But you are certainly right that copyright is a government-granted monopoly. More than that, however, it's a monopoly on the use of other people's property. i.e. the government tells a person that he cannot use the computer, paper, and other resources which are legitimately his property in a certain way. Copyright is a violation of one of the most fundamental of rights -- the right to property.

  51. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by theaveng · · Score: 1

    There's a more fundamental right - right to own one's body and one's labor. If I sit down and spend a year of my life writing a book, and citizens copy the book without payment (whether by computer or using a 1700s-era printing press), then they've stolen my year's labor without just compensation.

    In effect, they've turned me into a slave.

    Of course in that situation I'd quickly grow tired of being abused, and stop writing. And that means a decrease in the output of creative arts.

    --
    FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
  52. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

    There's police roaming the streets making sure people aren't violating my right to property or to physical integrity. There are auditors in banks making sure bank managers aren't doing anything funky with my money (even if those lost a fair bit of credibility recently...). There's plenty of people already in place being paid by governments to make sure their citizens' rights are not infringed upon. Conceptually, that there'd be a copyright police to protect the right to intellectual property is perfectly fine: it's only the ultimate logical conclusion of several other things we take for granted. The real issue at hand is that IP is treated as a right of the individual, rather than a right of society as a whole; the issue is the agenda behind the changes and the editorial lines those changes take. The issue is not that there might be a copyright police, but rather that "copyright police" is a nicer way of saying "government-paid corporate attack dog".

    Still, this does not in any way invalidate my point: Enforcing rights is part of the charter of a government. Or, extending your own arguments, we'd conclude that, since there are laws on the books that provide remedy and punishment for car theft, we should just leave it for litigation, and police shouldn't do squat if they witness a car being stolen.

  53. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by plnix0 · · Score: 1

    There's a more fundamental right - right to own one's body and one's labor. If I sit down and spend a year of my life writing a book, and citizens copy the book without payment (whether by computer or using a 1700s-era printing press), then they've stolen my year's labor without just compensation. In effect, they've turned me into a slave.

    You claim that one has a "right to own one's body and one's labor", while implicitly accepting my point that one has a right to the free use of one's property. But they cannot both be true. A right, by definition, literally cannot be in opposition to another right. It is simply impossible. So check your premises. One or the other is not a true right.

    Now, I certainly agree that one owns one's body. But several things must be true of a thing in order for it to be labeled property. First, it must be tangible, physical. Only actual objects may be owned. Second, it must be scarce. If I own a chair, I own the only chair that is that exact chair -- it is a scarce good. If someone takes my chair, I no longer possess it. Even with things which are not considered "scarce" in common language, are indeed scarce. If I hold some air in a bag, no one else has exactly that same air, even though there may be a lot of similar air around the world.

    Thomas Jefferson said it rather well:

    Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

    No one can 'steal' your labor, because labor cannot be property. If you go somewhere where no one else has gone and use your labor to transform the earth or an object of nature, the land or object can become your property, as a result of your labor, but your labor itself is not property. It is quite possible to expend labor in a manner which gains you no property -- whether to waste time and effort, or to expend labor for some temporary pleasure or immaterial virtue or benefit.

    On the other hand, the right to own one's own body is fundamental and is the same right as the general right to hold property. You own your body in the same manner in which you own your computer, your books, your keyboard, your cardboard box, and so on, except that you owned it first, before you could own anything else. (As for alienability, that's a separate debate, with quite interesting arguments on both sides... but it doesn't affect my main point here.) Thus, if your property right in your pen and paper is violated, then your right to own your body has been violated -- they are one and the same right, the right of property. As for the slave analogy, that has absolutely zero validity whatsoever. A slave is forced to work. No one

  54. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    Still, this does not in any way invalidate my point: Enforcing rights is part of the charter of a government. Or, extending your own arguments, we'd conclude that, since there are laws on the books that provide remedy and punishment for car theft, we should just leave it for litigation, and police shouldn't do squat if they witness a car being stolen.

    My goodness, are you reaching to make a point. There are far too many issues completely ignored by your post that I'd suggest you go back and get a slightly larger picture here. Start with Ray Beckerman's blog and work from there. You seem intelligent: I think you'll be able to figure out the flaws in your argument after a little research.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  55. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    I doubt that very much. And (as I've already repeated twice in this thread) I am not promoting the end of copyright.

    Why not? You should. Copyright is immoral as it is inherently a denial of legitimate property rights.

    Well, it's a tradeoff, and any good engineer knows that sometimes you have to make one. Whether or not we should have done so (or, more importantly, should continue to do so) is another story.

    In any event, I was trying to unconfuse the issue: some people seem to think that having copyright means that government has the function of policing said rights. That's kind of mindblowing to me, actually. It's never been the case throughout U.S. history, and I fail to see why it should be now. Copyright gives you the right to seek redress for any infringement via the court system. The onus of detecting and prosecuting such infringement is the copyright owner's responsibility not law enforcement's. Well, that's how it used to be ... apparently that's changing now. I believe that's wrong.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  56. Re:Huh? Heu???? some precisions by plnix0 · · Score: 1
    Morally speaking, there's no trade off. In order to truly respect property rights, you must reject copyright, as the latter is intrinsically a perversion and a violation of the former.

    Now, when it comes to accomplishing certain goals, sure there's a trade off, but I don't see principles and moral absolutes as something worth trading away, even if there was some material benefit to myself, and I'm certainly not willing to empower rulers to make that trade in my name.

    I agree with the crux of your last paragraph, though -- even if we allow the copyright system to remain, government most certainly should not be actively policing copyrights.