Slashdot Mirror
Houses With Tails
nnfiber writes "What if home owners could also own their Internet connection? Tim Wu, of New America Foundation and Derek Slater, Google's Policy Analyst, say this can be a new effective way to encourage broadband deployment — an important issue in 'America's economic growth.' In his post, Timothy B. Lee says: 'That might sound like a crazy idea at first blush, but Wu and Slater do a great job of explaining how it might work. The key idea is "condominium fiber," an arrangement in which a number of neighboring households pool their resources to install fiber to all the homes in their neighborhoods. Once constructed, each home would own its own fiber strand, while the shared costs of maintaining the "trunk" cable from the individual homes to a central switching location would be managed in the same way that condominium and homeowners' associations currently manage the shared areas of condos and gated communities.'"
just to deal with the 'tail'. Too much administrative work to do on a volunteer basis, too little to do on a paid basis. But it might work with a pre-existing organization such as a condo, coop or home owners association.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Sounds like a red-light district to me.
I don't think so!
As soon as something on the trunk broke due to any reason, all the neighbors are going to come banging down my door as being the "tech-savvy" person.
Neighbor 1: "Umm... the internet won't work anymore."
Neighboar 2: "My emails won't send!"
Neighbor 3's kids: "unmm liek i cn't tlk to my bff jill?"
I really don't think that the average consumer is going to care about something like this.
For most, a 5Mbps cable connection is much much much more than they ever will (or can) use. The only thing that will drive high-bandwidth stuff like this is media. Websites like this are certainly a step in the correct direction, but until we start seeing dedicated media appliances in peoples homes, it isn't going to happen.
On top of that, think of something (other than streaming media) that your average home-owning consumer is going to use that would require large bandwidth. There aren't many. Sure, some of us geeks use services like Usenet or (and I've never seen this in practice, only rumors of it) bittorrent that are capable of filling up our connection but, relative to the amount of joe-sixpack/plumbers there are out there, we are a small small minority.
Any devs wnat to make a "hulu" box with me?
NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
Your neighbor's resources=their money, your resources=your time and knowledge. You could possibly create a full-time and well-paying job for yourself running your neighborhood's network.
"A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." Hayek
now, maybe as a renter my view of Home Owners Associations (HOA) and condos are a little flawed... but condering there have been cases where HOAs have stopped people from putting up solar panals, fences, planting trees, even a back yard clothes line... what is to stop them from likewise restricting and controlling broadband?
sorry, your torrenting is degrading the value of our community internet, we are going to have to block that.
instead of a half dozen telcos to deal with for net neutrality, you will have thousands on thousands of HOAs
the preceding post was not spell checked... suck it.
Just because you live near each other doesn't mean you play well together. Especially when money is involved. How could you possibly do this and not have someone ticked off for paying more than they think they should. Should my mother who doesn't even own a computer be subsidizing everyone elses usage? Or what happens when someone who believes in the RIAA moves into your neighborhood and then starts enforcing his beliefs on you. Sounds crazy, but how many people get fined a year because they have too much crap on their condo deck, or some other abserd thing. Oh, the arguments may or may not be rational, but that won't stop them. Especially in a neighborgood that spans a large age group. Instead of get off my lawn, it'll be get your porn of my internet.
"Once constructed, each home would own its own fiber strand, while the shared costs of maintaining the "trunk" cable from the individual homes to a central switching location would be managed in the same way that condominium and homeowners' associations currently manage the shared areas of condos and gated communities."
So, that is to say - not at all? We have a hard enough time collecting homeowner's fees as it is. I can only speculate that it would be harder at a higher cost.
And what are you supposed to do if/when one home stops paying its part? Not upkeep that portion of fiber? Have everyone else absorb the costs?
Mods: Disagreeing with me != my post Offtopic / Flamebait.
World without hate or war, invaded. Tragic?
Part of your point, that telcos are lazy and negligent, is exactly why this is enticing. Maybe if the telcos didn't have to install new hardware on private property, the cost to roll out broadband would be cheaper. Of course, without the opportunity to gouge the customer on that new hardware, the enticement might be gone. This could also open the possibility of third-party bandwidth providers like WISPs, and not being pigeon-holed into one of 3 delightfully crappy plans.
Great, all I need is my homeowners' association determining what kind of internet connection I get. What if half of them are happy with dialup? What if some of them don't even want to pay for an internet connection? What if some of them are delinquent on their payments and my connection gets cut off?
How about fuck those guys and let me manage my own connection instead of unnecessarily making it a shared responsibility where decisions are made by a committee of people with no mutual interest?
Neighboar 2: "My emails won't send!"
Quit being selfish. It's not really fair to expect a wild pig to understand the ins and outs of networking.
In my experience, the people who ask others for tech help are the least likely to be willing to pay for it. And they certainly aren't willing to pay market rates.
At which point your neighbors will then begin to dictate what content will and will not be allowed on the connection, "in the same way that condominium and homeowners' associations currently manage the shared areas of condos and gated communities" now.
No thanks.
Proverbs 21:19
Holy Crap! This is like, a FREE GOLD MINE!
Unlimited tech support opportunities! Exclusive contracts! Clueless users ensuring a steady supply of work! Bottomless pits of fodder for "Customers Suck" and "Stupid, Stupid Enduser" blogs! Angry phone calls at 3AM! People knocking on your door asking you to fix their plumbing and interwebs!
This is a BOFH's Wet Dream!
[End Of Line]
This kind of sharing at the edges is already exactly what people do with WiFi attached to wired broadband. Lots of people use neighbors' broadband when they first move in, before their own wire is installed. Lots of other people too cheap to pay for expensive broadband are piggybacking on their neighbors' WiFi. And plenty of other people's guests just use neighbors' WiFi because it's easier than plugging in with more cables, especially if the broadband adapter doesn't have extra hub ports.
The problem is that the telcos/cablecos prohibit sharing one's broadband account with the neighbors. They insist on monopolizing the delivery of broadband to everyone, even after years of failing to deliver it to lots of people (usually because it's priced too expensive, but often because the telco/cableco has higher profit elsewhere while they ignore wiring whole neighborhoods).
If people weren't prohibited from sharing their broadband connections, they would include more people in the broadband Net. Some people would offer WiFi, others would offer wires. Competition among them (lacking in the telco/cableco duopoly) would force everyone's prices lower.
The telcos/cablecos would hate it. But so what? We all hate them, for many good reasons.
--
make install -not war
Thank you for the early Christmas present, that thought makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!
God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
If would probably think this a great idea, if
I had not lived in appartments or houses with shared facilites - parking spaces, pools, whatever.
1. Everybody treats 'shared' resources with zero respect.
2. Everybody bitches about the cost. Some don't pay.
3. There's a regular shitfest disguised as a 'resident's association meeting' or something. Always dominated by a few activists whose opinions inevitably are the reverse of yours.
4. The people hired by the 'association council' to do installation & maintenance are always more expensive and less competent than people you've picked.
5. Whenever something breaks, it's always faster and cheaper to fix it yourself, so the vaguely competent end up doing everything if they want their hall lights, garage door, cable to work...
So, I can do without the pool, but depend on this setup for my (vital for work) broadband?
Noooooooooooooooo!
Homeowners associations are notorious for mission creep - how long before they would want content filters?
Hmm..do they still even have neighborhood pools anymore? It was great to meet kids around you...have fun during the summers...but, hell, that was so long ago for me, we even had a quality diving board...something I guess most kids of today haven't got a clue about except for maybe seeing one on the olympics.
*sigh* damned lawyers....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you would bother to do a little bit of looking first, you would see that FIOS is not available in NEARLY all cities.
My mom lives in a gated retirement community, where the overwhelming majority of the population is seniors. Many of them have computers, which they use to do all sorts of things, from browsing the Web to making Skype calls to their family around the country. Few of them are really what you would call "computer literate." Most of them seem to know some guy who lives in the neighborhood who has taken it upon himself to be smarter than your average bear. They might not necessarily pay that guy out at "market rates," but when you start to add up free dinners, free bottles of scotch, etc., plus just being a well-known and respected member of your community, being the local "tech guy" has its plus side.
Breakfast served all day!
The 1930's called, they want their economic thinking back.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Trust me.
Have either of these guys ever owned a condo? I made that mistake once - never again. Years to get simple repairs done, friends of the condo board getting repairs long before other people and often before people who requested needed repairs first, etc. etc. ad nauseam. Owning a condo is a good way to see some of the worst traits humanity has to offer. Let an organization like that control the quality or even existence of my net connection? No way.
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
This has been going on for ages in Denmark.
Local community calls up some provider, they dig in cables, each home owner coughs up with the money for the digging+cables (around 10.000DKR ($1800) the houses value increase by the value of the new cables - cables belong to the houses, switch boxes etc. belong to whatever provider you choose.
Seriously US, get with the times!
Of course you can't live on goodwill and scotch alone.
You also need blackjack and hookers.
And I bet the cable companies/isp's would not like the idea of joe sixpack competing with them.
nope. there used to be a thing called "community TV" a neighborhood would buy a lot, set up a big tower with antennas and wire all the homes with "cable tv" and everyone paid $25.00 a year to it's upkeep and upgrading.
Cable Tv companies came up with "franchise fees" when they entered into a market. They used this along with lobbying for legislation to make running a non profit free "community TV" system illegal. you had to be a business and pay franchise fees. This killed every system across America as the cable companies came in.
Nobody is willing to lobby state and federal lawmakers to make it legal for neighborhoods to band together and put up a community tv system legally anymore. We just bay like good sheep and pay out $55.00 a month Cable TV bill.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Its not the markets that are failing, its the mixing of free markets and protectionism that brought us to this point.
"A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." Hayek
*sigh* damned lawyers....
Yes, they do suck, but lawyers by themselves don't do much damage. It also takes stupid kids who injure/kill themselves at a community pool. It then takes greedy/stupid/bad parents to take advantage of the situation with the lawyer.
Lets not forget that: lawyers are always going to be evil, but it's greedy individuals who use them as weapons against the community.
Not really relevant, but for those of you who are now pissed off at those assholes, here's some youtube clips of people getting injured in funny ways at pools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYWqkhScU8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj9lkqRDUNE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrzHY345aKk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3A69-NaAXw&NR=1
Shieldwolf, what planet do you live on? Your posts are always vague and nonsensical.
Your premise is incorrect. Businesses aren't bankrupt, the stockmarket is recovering, and your drama is understandable but extreme beyond reality.
Pushing nodes to the edges and the cost to the edges is a scheme as old as wired communications. The 'bells' that are out there today slowly swallowed up all of the coops that were out there. Interconnect wasn't very well done back then. Things have improved.
Interconnect doesn't and hasn't ever followed the philosophy you cite. Ever. Utilities were once huge coops. Returning to that model might send a jolt of much needed electricity into the monopolies they've become.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
What idiot thinks that negotiating cost, authority, accountability and responsibility for a fiber trunk with any number of neighbors greater than zero is going to be feasible?
What planet are you from? Because on my planet my one neighbor maintains an unsightly junkyard of decaying plumbing supplies in his backyard. My other neighbor always parks their cars in front of my yard because their garage is full of useless shit and they don't want cars in front of their yard. The neighbor across the street?? Well, he maintains two vicious junkyard dogs in his concrete/gated frontyard. They spend all day leaping at and barking at everything that moves. The neighbor next to him? he's abandoned one dead, totaled in a car crash, Toyota Rav-4 on the street like some sort of mad-max art tribute.
And somebody thinks there's going to be some magical, happy, functional negotiation about a shared high-tech resource with these kinds of people??
Puuuuhleeeease!
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
This is whyas part of the monthly maintenance fee is set aside for repairs.
Then you bill your rate.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The same neighborhood pools that were segregated by banning blacks in the south as late as the late 1950s?
And the modern cyber equivalent would be only the middle and upper middle class would be able to afford net access under this system leading to a permanent marginally employed and under informed cyber underclass of "untouchable" manual laborers.
Thanks but no thanks. Hasn't the financial crises shown that the cut throat "ownership society" not only is not cruel and greedy, but doesn't work very well. Do we really want a fiber bubble and then fiber crash?
More Sweden, less Dicken's England please.
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
This kind of networks already exists over here in Romania; we call them "Neighborhood Networks", (not to be mistaken with Windows' same folder, or what it is). They exist since the late '90s, and they're being massively brought off by traditional ISPs for they customer base. In their beginning, these networks would be the only way to get broadband of any kind; they would span anarchically over several condo blocks, cables ran in trees, routers secured in plastic bags... the good ol' times... Some are active to this day, they turned into mini-ISPs. They even have private peerings with each others, and even launched an exchange (this: http://www.interlan.ro/?lang=en&t=1) They're widely credited by the geek community in Romania to force the major ISPs to deploy true broadband and bring down the prices.
The 1930's called, they want their economy back.
I had this more than 5 years ago. We shared a symmetric 4 Mbit connection in our flat, connected on simple CAT5. "Service" was done by a few volunteers and there was a clear understanding that this was not a "service guaranteed within X hours" kind of thing. We HAD to pay through a standing bank-order so nobody had to chase those who forgot to pay. For USD 15 per month, it was the best internet connection I have ever had, felt at least as smooth as my current 8/1.5 ADSL. My boss currently runs a network for +/- 80 families. The only problem they have is if people plug WIFI routers wrongly and a second DHCP server appears on their network. Then it is door to door Gestapo style.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
We're working on it.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
I hate to rain on your parade but every bear market of the last century has little upward tics every now and then, even while the overall trend is a race to the bottom.
Here's a chart illustrating our current situation compared to the Depression, the 70's oil crisis, and the Dot-com bust: http://dshort.com/charts/bears/four-bears-large.gif
My mom lives in a gated retirement community, where the overwhelming majority of the population is seniors.
Of course you can't live on goodwill and scotch alone.
You also need blackjack and hookers.
Will bridge and octogenarian widows do?
The difference is that in the current model the ISP puts up the cash to build the last-mile connection to your home.
They don't do this for free; you pay for it in your monthly bill. It is in fact the largest part of your internet connection bill.
If you pay $50/month for internet access it is probably about $30 for the last mile and $20 for IP service.
The differnece is that when you have 'paid off' your last-mile infrastructure after about 5 years of service with your ISP they do not stop charging you for it.
It is the differnece between renting a car perpetually and buying it.
Furthermore, the ISPs have very little incentive to upgrade ancient infrastrcture. That is why so many of us are still on DSL/cable systems when fiber is the same cost.
Why should they upgrade when you continue to rent the old stuff?
The whole point of this (which has been overshadowed by TFA bringing HOAs into it) is to separate the last-mile infrastructure from the IP service.
(TFA is NOT the originator of this concept)
Nobody in their right mind is suggesting that your HOA should be your ISP or that you should buy Internet service from anyone other than existing ISPs.
What is being suggested is that we should stop this system of perpetualy renting the physical cables that run into our homes.
Paying up front the true cost of running a fiber strand from your house to the nearest carrier neutral datacentre frees you from monopoly opression forever.
In this scenario you can switch Internet or phone or even TV providers at the push of a button. That puts you in the position of power.
- the cost of the last-mile is 60-80% of your current Internet service bill.
- if you are going to buy your house rather than rent it then why not buy rather than rent your last-mile fiber?
BTW, I'd like to offer to buy your driveway and rent it back to you for the next 40 years.
Be warned, I may at some point be 'forced' to restrict the weight of your car so as not to unduly stress my poorly maintainted ashphalt.
Just about the only organization I have to deal with that I like less than the cable companies and phone companies is the local homeowner's association.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The markets are failing. The stock market had the bottom fall out of it. Nobody is lending money. Nobody is spending money. Nobody has any idea what real value means anymore. Credit markets are the tightest we've seen in decades. Nearly every measure of economic prosperity points to a worsening condition (and we're already in a pretty bad spot).
It doesn't mean that the idea of the free market system has failed entirely, but the collapse of the financial industry had fuck-all to do with protectionism.
I think one of the reasons why it gets like that is that nobody with a real life is willing to give their own time to community projects like that; thus it ends up in the hands of small-minded bullies. It works like that on all levels - just see how the political agenda is constantly taken over by the worst elements in society, simply because the good, honest, ordinary people don't make the necessary effort.