Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Free Resources for Windows Perl Development

Posted by kdawson on from the christmas-present dept.

jamie pointed out an important announcement in the Perl community. Adam Kennedy, known as Alias, developed Strawberry Perl to "make Win32 a truly first class citizen of the Perl platform world." Over the last year, major CPAN modules have used Strawberry Perl to get to releases that work trouble-free on Windows. But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing. Now Alias has worked with Microsoft's Open Source Software Lab to provide for every CPAN author free access to a centrally-hosted virtual machine environment containing every major version of Windows. "More information (and press releases) will follow, the entire program under which this partnership will be run is so new it's only just been given a name, so some of the organisational details will ironed out as we go. But for now, to all the CPAN authors, all I have to add is... Merry Christmas. P.S. Or your appropriate equivalent religious or non-religious event, if any, occurring during the month of December, etc., etc."

117 comments

  1. win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: -1, Troll

    developed Strawberry Perl to "make Win32 a truly first class citizen of the Perl platform world

    Just one question. Why? Can you even BUY a computer with a 32-bit cpu any more?

    What next - ports for the C64 and Tandy Color Computer?

    1. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      Win32 is the windows API. Making perl for .NET will be fun. Thankfully Parrot will rope other people into doing most of it.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    2. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by timmarhy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i hate the break it to you but win32 still dominates the landscape, the cpu being 64bit is irrelevant. sounds like you've been duped by the marketing.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    3. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I know what Win32 is. I also know, having written my own abstraction layer for it, that it's a real POS. Thankfully, I haven't had to use it in over a decade, and have no plans to in the future, just like I don't see myself switching back to Windows either at work or at home.

      KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick.

    4. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's impossible to find a 64-bit only CPU for use with Windows.

      Fucking impossible.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    5. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Haven't used Win32 in over a decade. Never used MFC because it was total crap - like a lot of people, I ended up having to write my own abstraction classes since OWL wasn't much better.

      Windows is dying. It's like GM. Bloated, pointless, only continuing to exist because "it's too big to fail" - in other words, on its' past momentum. Microsoft either has to break completely with the past (and in so doing, break Win32 compatibility), or continue to be the worlds' most popular malware enabler.

    6. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      Spoken like a true geek: short-sighted, and from the ass.

    7. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure your car analogy is apropos. You had a chance of wrenching on an old Buick. Also, back in the day, the impact of a frizbee did not trigger $4k in damage. You never get out of a body shop for less than $4k.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    8. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: -1, Troll

      My point was that Win32 and Windows are not first-class citizens in the computer world. Aside from the desktop, Windows is either late to the party, or trailing badly, or not visible. On the desktop, Windows is also second-class - the Mac has it beat hands down. There's a lot of truth to "Once you go Mac, you never go back" - and part of that is because the Win32 API is a piece of crap, and has been for over a decade. It's been extended since the original add-in that you could download for Win311 to give it 32-bit support, and it shows its' heritage.

      The people who will really get a kick out of a perl Win32 API are the malware writers. I say "Go for it!" The more malware out there, the more likely people are to switch to a real operating system, and not some dog-and-pony-show tarted-up with a ton of lipstick.

    9. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: -1, Troll

      Spoken like a true geek: short-sighted, and from the ass.

      Spoken like someone who has drunk so much of the purple kool-ade they can't think of "whatcanpossiblygowrong"? You're the one being short-sighted. Who will be the group that benefits most from a perl Win32 API? Malware authors and their clients. The RBN will be most happy to subscribe to your newsletter.

      Aren't there already enough tools to practice p0wnage on Windows users without adding more?

      Windows is a second-class (or worse) OS. Get used to it, because it's only going to get worse. Or have you forgotten Microsofts' promise that viruses won't run on Windows, so you should switch from DOS. And then the same promise for Windows 95, since it was supposedly a true 32-bit OS?

      Windows can't compete fairly - that was established last century. It's truly second-class.

    10. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure your car analogy is apropos. You had a chance of wrenching on an old Buick. Also, back in the day, the impact of a frizbee did not trigger $4k in damage. You never get out of a body shop for less than $4k.

      Good point - the old "Windows is like a car with the hood welded shut" strikes again! Darned :-)

      The frisbee cost is another good point. Open up the wrong email, or surf the wrong site, and you'll spend more to fix the damage than the OS cost in the first place - and that's even if you had "protection", since anti-virus software is just an arms race.

    11. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Khuffie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. So is Windows Embdedded. Windows Server is gaining marketshare.

      YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't. In an above post, you compared Microsoft to GM, and declared that they were dying. Yeah, sure, they're dying exactly like GM, except for the fact that they're making money hand over fist, have over $70 billion in assets, and haven't required a government bailout.

    12. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      I recently updated to Ubuntu 8.10, and discovered that the sleek, fuel-efficient KDE programs I love were ripped out and replaced with hummers. Honestly, Kolourpaint takes up 50% of my cpu drawing a line.

      And I do use 32 bit, because my single 2.8 Ghz processor has served me well for three and a half years, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it.

      And just to be clear, that 2.8Ghz is more than most cores nowadays, so though I may be stuck in the past, I'd still say that for the most basic of drawing applications, 50% of one of 8 cores is still ridiculous. Buick indeed.

    13. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      They don't need a government bailout?

      Every dime they make or steal is through direct government interference in my rights and the willful connivance of the government not to enforce the few laws that might otherwise hinder the money flow.

      You want to call 'em successful, you do that. You want to say they're doing it without government support? You're full of shit.

    14. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by tomhudson · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      A decade ago, GM was also making money had over fist. GM is celebrating its' 100 year anniversary facing bankruptcy in weeks. Microsoft will probably end up being bought by Apple for chump change long before it hits its' 100 years.

      Also, the government (and most governments world-wide) having adopted the Word .doc format as a "standard" for so long is a HUGE government subsidy, and one that won't lst much longer. Your tax dollars can be better leveraged by using software that doesn't tie your government to one vendor. Single-sourcing is inherently uncompetitive, and risky.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone Both Symbian (46%), Apple (17.3%) RIM (15.2%) beat out Microsoft (13.6%) in the smartphone OS market. Not exactly high-profile, and with Android coming out, linux looks to be the major threat http://code.google.com/android/what-is-android.html

      Android relies on Linux version 2.6 for core system services such as security, memory management, process management, network stack, and driver model. The kernel also acts as an abstraction layer between the hardware and the rest of the software stack.

      Supercomputing? Windows has 5 entries in the top 500, linux and various linux distros have 452. In terms of actual computing power, it's even more lopsided.

      In terms of gaming consoles, the Wii and the DS blow both the xbox and the ps3 out of the water.

      Next you'll be claiming the Zune is a threat to the iPod. Microsoft produces second-rate products. The Win32 API is ancient, cruft-laden, and also second-rate.

    15. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by ggvaidya · · Score: 1

      Windows is dying.

      I sincerely hope so. But until it kicks the bucket, there's software on it which needs to be supported, and improved Windows testing and debugging of current CPAN modules will make the lives of those of us who use those modules on Windows a whole lot easier.

    16. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by stjobe · · Score: 1

      KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick

      In your eyes. In mine, they both look like the rear end of a dump truck. I choose my UI for how easy it is to work with, not how easy it is to look at.

      --
      "Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
    17. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by JamesP · · Score: 1

      Windows Mobile is everywhere.

      No

      So is Windows Embdedded

      No

      Most (embedded / server) places that have linux are not advertised as such.

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    18. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. ...

      Yes, and that someone is ... you! I'm guessing you didn't see the news Friday that Windows Mobile was just passed in market share by ... the iPhone!
      http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=iphone+q3+2008+market+share

      The problem for fanbois who point to Microsoft's size as a sign of its invincibility is that ... size is not a sign of invincibility.

    19. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by hullabalucination · · Score: 1

      Windows Mobile is everywhere.

      You're joking, right? Are we talking about the same Windows Mobile that got its doors blown off in the mobile market by OS X on the iPhone in a mere two quarters?

      http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1163

      * * * * *

      "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." —Groucho Marx

    20. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by A12m0v · · Score: 1

      Windows Mobile is not everywhere, Windows Mobile is on a bridge to nowhere!
      The iPhone has more worldwide market after a mere 2 years, WinMo had over a decade headstart, since it was called WinCE or whatever, and is still irrelevant.
      Blackberry dominates in NA, Symbian dominates globally, and Android is going to bite into WinMo's market share before anything else!

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    21. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haven't required a government bailout

      "Required." I like it! Keep talking like that, son, and we might have a place for you in the big leagues!

      -- Your obedient servants in government

    22. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't.

      FUCK the market. The market doesn't know what it wants. It only thinks it knows what it wants because someone has told it what it wants.

    23. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by daeg · · Score: 1

      How much of the server growth is due to capacity, though? I'd like to see some numbers comparing how many users a Windows Server host for a web application can support versus, say, BSD, for the same application. I looked around a bit but couldn't find any.

    24. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be one hell of a businessman.

    25. Re:win32 a first-class citizen? by shivamib · · Score: 0

      recently updated to Ubuntu 8.10, and discovered that the sleek, fuel-efficient KDE programs I love were ripped out and replaced with hummers. Honestly, Kolourpaint takes up 50% of my cpu drawing a line.

      Ack! You gained gnomexperience!

  2. AKA Alias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So this guy's alias is alias?
    so also said as: adam kennedy, alias: alias.

    1. Re:AKA Alias? by adamkennedy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If one is forced to use an Alias for online life, might as well make it obvious...

  3. More like lack of interest. by Rahga · · Score: 0, Redundant

    "But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing."

    I was born on a day, but not yesterday. I must admit to not using perl for anything serious in a very long time, but as I recall, many smaller modules in CPAN didn't even work trouble free on an up-to-date linux machine because they were either badly coded or simply didn't run with newer versions of other dependencies. Maybe things have changed, but I doubt access to Windows machines is a real issue for anybody apart from a tiny handful of GNU diehards/blowhards.

    1. Re:More like lack of interest. by shotgunefx · · Score: 1

      Actually, as far as linux, usually everything just works. I'm sure there's a lot of one off modules that never get anything but a first release and sit unloved but almost everything I've needed to install runs without issue and has done so for years. The only module I can think of on Linux that was a PITA was the SDL libraries, due to the different versions and many library dependencies.

      As far as Windows, it depends, all the core stuff is fine, and if you can find it in a ppm repository, you're usually fine, other things that rely on c libs and such , well, YMMV.

      --

      -William Shatner can be neither created nor destroyed.
    2. Re:More like lack of interest. by Smallpond · · Score: 2, Informative

      The CPAN testers was conceived back in May 1998 by Graham Barr and Chris Nandor as a way to provide multi-platform testing for modules. Today there are 2,653,748 tester reports and more than 400 testers giving valuable feedback for users and authors alike.

      CPAN modules are probably better tested cross-platform than libraries for any other language.

    3. Re:More like lack of interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. And, oh my goodness, this is wrong. Many modules were written with specific requierments with other modules, that have drifted a tremendous amount. If you're using a bleeding edge distribution, many related modules have often drifted so far ahead that they are no longer compatible. And if you use a server class, stable distribution, many core components require update but overwrite modules of your basic Perl distribution. Even then, an old application that has stabilized and refused to upgrade core components (such as using Apache 1.3, which Debian supports alongsiede HTTPD 2) can badly destabilize your system when you try to CPAN install the basic modules.

      If you think I'm kidding, try installing the Musicbrainz server. It has basic mod_perl requirements that are specific to Apache 1.x and perl, and are amazingly painful to integrate into any perl newer than perl-5.6.

    4. Re:More like lack of interest. by adamkennedy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem with CPAN Testers is that while it can tell you IF your module is broken, it doesn't give you any way to actually get onto Windows to debug the problem. All you can does is guess the fix and upload a new release, and hope for the best.

      CPAN Testers is the canary in the coal mine, which is handy, but doesn't actually help clear out the poison.

    5. Re:More like lack of interest. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Having a lot of testers doesn't seem to actually affect the quality of many of the smaller modules. Many of them have absolutely insane dependency chains, requiring both untested, unreliable modules, often from the same author, and completely deprecated modules for the same component, with massive duplication of modules to do the same small task in slightly different ways.

      For the core modules, and those exciting modules likely to be included in the next release, I can see the results of testing work. But many of the smaller ones are one-off debris by sloppy programmers that unfortunately show up in the CPAN search engines. No one seems to test them, and they're apparently not tested again after their original publicaton for compatibility with new perl releases.

    6. Re:More like lack of interest. by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Finally, I can make sure my module works on Windows 3.11!

      Just last year, I tracked down a machine with Windows 95 and got it working there, but I really wanted to make sure it worked with ALL major Windows operating systems.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    7. Re:More like lack of interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, believe it or not, MS still distribute Windows 3.11 as part of MSDN, along with MS-DOS 6.22. So obviously I have a working 3.11 install inside a VM - just because.

    8. Re:More like lack of interest. by digitalgiblet · · Score: 1

      "...lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing."

      Reminds me of the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch.

      "Do you have any Windows machines?"

      "We don't get much call for it around here."

      "It's the single most common operating system on the planet!"

      "Well not round here!"

      I can accept many, many arguments as to why the Perl code hasn't been tested on Windows, but not that the team couldn't find a Windows machine. Surely at least one of them has at least one friend who at least has a dual boot machine. I could buy the argument that they couldn't find an Amiga or BE/Os machine very easily, but Windows? You gotta work pretty hard to avoid Windows that completely.

  4. nice link there by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    http://tech.slashdot.org/Strawberry

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    1. Re:nice link there by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Slashdot has been slashdotted? I knew this would happen one day!

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  5. This really works quite nice... by perlhacker14 · · Score: 1

    It includes a pre-configured CPAN-shell and compilation tools for c modules.
    Installation is a bit screwy on Vista; it does require some manuevering there, but it works off to bat on xp.
    I, for one, am quite happy that there are other options that function well besies ActivePerl; never liked it. No longer is one dependant on the proprietary ppm packaging so much! The value of CPAN is better put to use here.
    Though, businesses that rely on perl might want to wait before abandoning activeperl; strawberry is relatively new here...

    1. Re:This really works quite nice... by ggvaidya · · Score: 1

      Though, businesses that rely on perl might want to wait before abandoning activeperl; strawberry is relatively new here...

      True, but after a morning of trying to work through ActivePerl PPMs, giving up, and having Strawberry Perl "just work", atleast my company is getting closer and closer to that tipping point ...

  6. Netcraft confirms it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    perl is dying http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/38010

    1. Re:Netcraft confirms it by LodCrappo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's not netcraft. Its the TIOBE index, which is notorious for being completely inaccurate. Google for "tiobe flawed" and you'll start to see just how worthless it is. That said, perl does have some serious challenges ahead if it wants to stay as popular or gain popularity.
       

      --
      -Lod
    2. Re:Netcraft confirms it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whooooosh

    3. Re:Netcraft confirms it by lysergic.acid · · Score: 2, Informative

      it might help to look at the context of the ranking in order to see things in perspective. coming in 8th out of 50 is hardly "dying." and if Perl is dying then Python (7th) isn't far behind, and JavaScript (9th), Ruby (11th), Lisp/Scheme (19th), and Lua (20th) are all definitely dead. not to mention the rest of the ranked languages:
      21. ActionScript
      22. MATLAB
      23. FoxPro/xBase
      24. Fortran
      25. Ada
      26. Transact-SQL
      27. Prolog
      28. RPG. (OS/400)
      29. Erlang
      30. NXT-G
      31. Awk
      32. LabVIEW
      33. Haskell
      34. ML
      35. Objective-C
      36. Focus
      37. Groovy
      38. Smalltalk
      39. Euphoria
      40. CL. (OS/400)
      41. Alice
      42. Tcl/Tk
      43. Scala
      44. Caml
      45. Bourne. shell
      46. Q
      47. Forth
      48. Natural
      49. APL
      50. R

    4. Re:Netcraft confirms it by ggvaidya · · Score: 1

      You left out my personal favourite: Logo is at rank 18, up from 21 last year, making it more popular than Lisp/Scheme, Lua, and Caml.

    5. Re:Netcraft confirms it by chromatic · · Score: 1

      I'll give you one better. Apparently, Google Chrome is written in Delphi. TIOBE confirms it.

      --
      how to invest, a novice's guide
    6. Re:Netcraft confirms it by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The current position is irrelevant if you want to determine whether something is "dying" or not; what matters is the long-term trend.

    7. Re:Netcraft confirms it by lysergic.acid · · Score: 1

      then i suppose the top 3 languages (2 of which have actually grown in the short-term) are dying since they've all decreased in popularity in the long-term?

    8. Re:Netcraft confirms it by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You mean Java, C, and C++? I wouldn't call it dying (yet), but they're certainly on the decline overall - C/C++ is being pushed out of desktop app market, for example, replaced by front-ends in Python (on Linux) or .NET (on Windows). Of course both are going pretty strong in low-level, and will probably remain strong there for a long time to come

      Java is just slowly declining overall. Sun's not feeling well, and IBM and Google are too conservative and not much interested in developing it further (look at the list of new features for Java 7 - not impressive!) - they'd rather have what's there been frozen and stable, which isn't a bad idea overall, but will lead to COBOLization in long term, and inevitable replacement by something newer eventually.

  7. bionic rats. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Windows is a rat infestation, the ship (our pirate ship -- we don't believe in imaginary property, and the best way to show our disbelief is by plundering it) is being gnawed apart by rats.

    But Perl is amazingly useful. It can make your system do ANYTHING, dance like a monkey? It's on CPAN.

    The conclusion to my analogy then is that Perl on Windows is like a remote-controlled bionic rat: a step up from the rest of the rats, but still no monkey.

    1. Re:bionic rats. by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      You are correct. It is.

  8. Linky by cleatsupkeep · · Score: 4, Informative

    Maybe this link will be a little more useful: http://strawberryperl.com/

  9. Perl::Windows by symbolset · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Pearls::Swine

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  10. Tag: "letsallkillthisbeast" by fluch · · Score: 1

    Both of them?

    1. Re:Tag: "letsallkillthisbeast" by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Microsoft and Windows? Good luck with that.

      --
      thegodmovie.com - watch it
  11. No One Does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    "I must admit to not using perl for anything serious in a very long time"

    No one does. Perl is a stinking pile of shit that no one but teenage Slashdot Linux dorks give a shit about.

    http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/

    1. Re:No One Does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=perl&lang2=ruby

    2. Re:No One Does by Fished · · Score: 1
      Hate to agree with someone who puts it the way you do, but err... well... your right. I got into Ruby for Rails after many years as a die-hard perl user. Now, I use it for everything. I will say that I miss the wide variety of modules available for Perl, which Ruby hasn't caught up with quite yet.

      Why is ruby better? For one, it's object orientation isn't an after-thought, and it's actually useful. For another, it makes it easy to produce readable code (in perl, readable code requires hard work.) Just wish we could catch up in the CPAN department.

      --
      "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    3. Re:No One Does by johanatan · · Score: 1

      What about gems?

  12. excellent! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just the right flavor to go with Chocolate Doom!

  13. It seems I'm the first to say it but... by Hercynium · · Score: 1

    Adam, you're the freakin' MAN.

    I actually didn't know the breadth of what you were arranging but this is just way beyond what I expected!

    I will definitely be taking advantage of this... Next time you're in the Boston area, I want to personally buy you a case of your choice of beer.

    (yes, I understand fully that this posting means it's "on the record" :D )

    --
    I'm done with sigs. Sigs are lame.
  14. Judgement Day by acidrainx · · Score: 1

    Ah.. so this is how Skynet begins.

  15. WTF? by actionbastard · · Score: 0, Redundant

    "...lack of access to a Windows environment..."

    Hello? Virtualization?

    --
    Sig this!
    1. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "...lack of access to a Windows environment..."

      Hello? Virtualization?

      Hello, obtaining a legal copy of windows?

    2. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "...lack of access to a Windows environment..."

      Hello? Virtualization?

      Hello? They would have to pay if the wanted to do it legally?

    3. Re:WTF? by adamkennedy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On top of licensing issues, other accumulated comments included the fact many Unix greybeards have never used Windows before, so the accumulated time to find the right torrent, download it, work out how to install everything etc etc was something they greatly didn't look forward to doing.

      It's not that they couldn't, it's just that they are busy people, like everyone else, and the time investment was too big for the relatively small win of closing one or two bugs on Windows.

      Shortcutting that process by just letting them log directly into a running instance is considered a significant improvement for that group.

    4. Re:WTF? by DrHyde · · Score: 1

      I'm one of that group. And yes, my beard *is* going grey. I've not used Windows for over a decade. I have no idea how to set up and configure a current Windows to be secure and to have a reasonable development environment. Nor do I care to learn, as I have better things to do with my time, like making tasty booze and grumbling about The Youth Of Today with their ghetto blasters and hard core pornography.

      But if this lets me test my code on Windows before releasing it, and spot and fix stupid errors, then that's a Big Win. I still won't bother fixing any major Windows-only bugs (like Adam says, it's too big a time investment from which I will get no benefit), but the vast majority of bugs are trivial little things and I *will* fix those.

  16. Free Resources for Windows Perl Development by DiegoBravo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    >> Free Resources for Windows Perl Development

    The definitive one: http://python.org/

    1. Re:Free Resources for Windows Perl Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      Fuck you you silly cunt

    2. Re:Free Resources for Windows Perl Development by ggvaidya · · Score: 1

      Hey! Python can run Perl? That's awesome. Do you have a link for that? I'd love to be able to use my favourite language on what is by all accounts a great interpreter.

      (If you want to run Python on Perl instead, you can. Perl: the choice is yours.)

    3. Re:Free Resources for Windows Perl Development by DiegoBravo · · Score: 1

      >> If you want to run Python on Perl instead, you can

      That you can run Python from other languages (not only Perl) talks very good about the Python's modularity and adaptability. BTW, I understand that Perl programmers logically would want to call and use Python, so this module has a lot of sense.

      >> Python can run Perl?

      From your interesting link:
      "perl is a Python module bundled with Inline::Python that gives you access to Perl from inside your Python code."

      BTW, I don't see the need to call Perl from Python, besides using legacy scripts.

      regards,

  17. Every major version of Windows? by Drinking+Bleach · · Score: 1

    I see in the list Windows XP and Server 2003 (they're almost the same...), Vista and Server 2008 (they are exactly the same!). Where's Windows 2000? there's quite a large chunk of users left on that platform. Hell, even a few users on Win98 or NT4 still.

    1. Re:Every major version of Windows? by adamkennedy · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you'd Read My Fucking Article you'd see that the current set is the MINIMUM initial launch set.

      The plan once we are running is to start adding more variations as needed. I'd certainly like to have a 2000 instance.

      As for the Windows 95 family, as I understand it support was dropped from the current Perl core for anything older than 2000.

    2. Re:Every major version of Windows? by adamkennedy · · Score: 1

      OK, maybe that was overly cruel...

      But yes, I'm aware the launch set only covers well-supported versions, and yes, there's more variations coming later.

    3. Re:Every major version of Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      Well good day to you too....

    4. Re:Every major version of Windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Temper temper mon capitain

  18. What about ActivePerl? by Loopy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've used ActiveState's ActivePerl on several windows boxes over the years and have had "trouble-free" experiences with it. Granted, some of the more bleeding-edge modules weren't at the latest revs but the mainstream software I used didn't strictly require those either.

    1. Re:What about ActivePerl? by adamkennedy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My issues with ActivePerl have been that it is fundamentally different to all the other Perl platforms (you don't get the full CPAN, just binary packages) and that because one company is the central gatekeeper of all the binary packages, there was never a reasonable way for CPAN authors to debug their modules.

      I for one wrote 150+ modules, of which a grand total of 7 were available on ActivePerl, due to various bugs in the ActivePerl build farm that went unfixed for years.

      To be truly first-class, you should be the same as the other platforms, not similar-but-different.

    2. Re:What about ActivePerl? by ZeekWatson · · Score: 1

      I for one wrote 150+ modules, of which a grand total of 7 were available on ActivePerl

      Perhaps the problem is with the way you code your modules and not with the ActivePerl build farm? ActivePerl has like a brazillion modules available for it.

    3. Re:What about ActivePerl? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Hey Adam how mature is strawberry perl compared to activePerl? Can I run it yet on my vista laptop or is it still beta?

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    4. Re:What about ActivePerl? by chromatic · · Score: 5, Informative

      ActivePerl has like a brazillion modules available for it.

      Not really. ActiveState made bizarre PPM binary compatibility decisions, which meant that their version of Scalar::Util didn't include the XS components. As the 5.8.x series continued, more and more modules relied on that XS component, which meant that increasing amounts of the CPAN weren't available as PPMs. I don't know the exact figures, but it wouldn't surprise me if one-third to one-half of the CPAN were unavailable from AS's repositories.

      (Did you know Alias is one of the CPAN administrators?)

      --
      how to invest, a novice's guide
    5. Re:What about ActivePerl? by adamkennedy · · Score: 1

      > Perhaps the problem is with the way you code your modules

      At the lowest point, just after the release of ActivePerl 5.10.0 the were ZERO modules available starting with the letter S...

      To their credit, ActiveState did finally recognise the old PPM build farm was a piece of shit, and they've now rewritten it from scratch and junked the old version entirely. The situation is nowhere near as bad as it used to be.

    6. Re:What about ActivePerl? by adamkennedy · · Score: 1

      Vista should work fine now.

      Only caveat is that there is currently no 64-bit port.

    7. Re:What about ActivePerl? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      What makes ActiveState Perl different from Perl as seen on Linux et al? Why cant you just run the same Perl code from Linux on ActiveState? And if it sucks so much, why has no-one done a more straight port from the Linux code (or is that what Cygwin Perl is for?)

    8. Re:What about ActivePerl? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perl itself, for the most part, works just fine with Windows. On the other hand, Perl modules have a number of issues with Windows. There are many differences in the *nix and Windows architectures so some things like SIGALRM aren't reliable or just don't exist. e.g. The standard paradigm on *nix is fork while windows wants threads. Another major issue is that many Perl modules include C code in the form of XS, and it's a pain to port to windows from a real POSIX platform.

      Most module authors write on some flavor of *nix and aren't about to go buy every version of windows just to try to port their modules. Which is the issue that Alias has provided a solution for. Of course, many authors still won't care about Windows but most will at least try to fix the minor problems now that they have access.

      Historically, cygwin has provided more modules because, among other things, it layers POSIX on top of the windows platform, which allows more modules to work. These days, efforts like Strawberry provide more than cygwin.

      At least, that's my understanding as a Linux elitist who doesn't give a damn about Windows,

      PS: Thanks Alias! This is great news for Perl portability, which I do give a damn about.

    9. Re:What about ActivePerl? by chromatic · · Score: 1

      What makes ActiveState Perl different from Perl as seen on Linux et al?

      In core Perl itself, nothing. ActiveState uses the same source code. The problem is ActiveState's PPM repository.

      Why cant you just run the same Perl code from Linux on ActiveState?

      It's the same source code.

      And if it sucks so much, why has no-one done a more straight port from the Linux code (or is that what Cygwin Perl is for?)

      ActivePerl and Strawberry Perl are distributions of Perl. They don't change the source code. The difference is that Strawberry Perl includes other tools so that you can configure, build, and install modules from the CPAN rather than hoping that they're part of ActiveState's PPM repository.

      --
      how to invest, a novice's guide
    10. Re:What about ActivePerl? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Perl modules may include C code and the module installers assume the availability of a compiler. Since that is not a given under Windows, ActiveState makes binary versions available in their PPM repository, but they support only a subset of modules for a number of reasons and are often behind.
      Bundling the C compiler (mingw gcc) with Perl is what Strawberry Perl is all about so you can use the standard build process for CPAN modules.

      --
      thegodmovie.com - watch it
    11. Re:What about ActivePerl? by coryking · · Score: 1

      That is all nice, but wait until you get a module that *isn't* in PPM. I can name several, especially the little guys written by the parent (Image::Math::Constrain or Image::Delivery for example). I use FreeBSD and it is easy to get such CPAN modules into the ports tree (and actually, most of the ones I've added are for Adam's stuff). Lord knows how you'd get these things added to Active Perl.

      Of course, the real "exciting" part of Active Perl is getting anything related to mod_perl* working.

      PS: The use case for me is getting EPIC working on a windows build of Eclipse using all the perl modules used by the stuff running on the server. ActivePerl just doesn't support enough of the modules in use to work.

  19. Good idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    Vista is such a memory and CPU hog that you need to "Free Resources (up) for Windows PERL developmeent"

    Start by turning off that aero crap...

  20. Thank You Retard! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    Hilarious!

    Thank you retard! Let me guess you also post equally idiotic 'devastating' links to pointless spinning cubes that 'prove' Linux is 'ahead' of Windows...

  21. At long last by nobodyman · · Score: 0, Troll

    People that hate perl and people that hate windows can *finally* find some common ground!

    Honestly, even a shop teacher can count the number of users that care about this on one hand.

    1. Re:At long last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Honestly, even a shop teacher can count the number of users that care about this on their one remaining hand.

    2. Re:At long last by yes+it+is · · Score: 1

      You must have one of these mutations that leaves your hands with quite a lot of fingers. 6700 CPAN authors at last count.

  22. Sign me up! by swm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I maintain a few modules on CPAN. Nothing big, I'm the sole author.

    In August, I got email from someone complaining that one of these modules doesn't pass its self-tests. After some back and forth, it turns out that it passes on Linux and fails on Windows. They even submitted a patch, but I don't want to integrate it unless I can test it on Windows.

    I've got some Windows machines in my house, but I'd have to put together a usable development environment, and it's a hassle, and I've got a day job, and it just hasn't happened in 4 months.

    If Alias et. al. can get me access to a Windows environment, this module could get cleaned up a lot sooner.

    1. Re:Sign me up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4 months!! That's really lazy, man. Installing windows under vmware, and adding strawberry perl to it is one hour max.

  23. what could possibly go wrong by jannesha · · Score: 1

    I, for one, welcome our new Perl virus writing overlords.

    1. Re:what could possibly go wrong by TheLink · · Score: 1

      TMTOWTDDOS

      --
  24. YOU FAiL IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    - Netcraft has been lloking for! schemes. Frankly keed to be Kreskin the resources that pro-homosexual working on various sanctions, and *BSD is dying Yet everyday...We Of playing your 486/66 with 8 Another folder. 20 systems. The Gay development model who are intersted states that there of BSD/OS. A

    1. Re:YOU FAiL IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never met Vlad, but he must be proud or annoyed to have TrollTalk dedicated to him.

  25. A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Win32 by ZeekWatson · · Score: 3, Informative

    Perl has been a first class citizen on Win32 starting with the GSAR port back in late 90s, then Perl for Win32 and now ActivePerl.

    In fact ActivePerl was more up to date than unix Perl during the late 5.005 and 5.6 because the pumpkin was primarily a Win32 developer.

    If you want to find the second class citizens in the Perl world look at OS2, Aix, Hpux, and other strange unixes. I know you want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation you're now working on is misguided. They did a damn fine job.

  26. I'm not convinced anything has changed. by GNUChop · · Score: -1

    ... accumulated comments included the fact many Unix greybeards have never used Windows before ... they are busy people, like everyone else, and the time investment was too big for the relatively small win of closing one or two bugs on Windows.

    Do you think that people will fix bugs for a platform they have successfully avoided for decades? And not just one but multiple versions of bug fixing too? It takes time and effort to avoid Windows and Windows only hardware and most people end up resenting the exercise. Does anyone really think that Windows will be a "first class citizen" even if all of Perl was perfect on it? I understand M$ wants to have WAMP, but I don't know why anyone will waste their time fixing things for a non free OS that takes so long to set up in the first place. What single advantage does Windows have to offer anyone that would justify development effort?

  27. Next... by deanston · · Score: 1

    ...IronPerl

  28. Killing it all with a smile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know [M$] want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation [M$ is] now working on is misguided.

    Yes, a decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Win32, but you miss the point. M$ is doing this to *kill* all non-M$ languages on the Win32 platform, including perl. Don't be confused just because they're all smiling and friendly-like about it.

  29. Promote Microsoft and undermine Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Whatever other benefits there are, the main beneficiary of porting open source software projects to the Windows platform is Microsoft.

    Bear in mind that if there were no Linux, many of the other open source software projects would not have existed.

    Microsoft don't even have to embrace and extinguish when the open source projects are doing it for them.

  30. Damn Dude. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    Do they make you hang out with Ballmer for a week just to get access?

  31. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.

    --
    thegodmovie.com - watch it
  32. Warning: Known sockpuppet/troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    User maintains 14 accounts on Slashdot.

  33. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

    Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.

    Or, you could go and download them, geeze! Why bloat installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?

  34. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by johanatan · · Score: 1

    Right, and MS never bloats installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?

  35. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

    Right, and MS never bloats installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?

    Your post makes no sense. If Microsoft bundles other things they should also bundle gigabytes of C++? This doesn't follow in any logical way, would make no business sense and would inconvenience most users. Can you even name something comparable that Microsoft bundles with Windows? Most stuff they ship with Windows is very minimal, just enough to get you started; I don't believe any of the components not strictly related to the OS itself came even within an order of magnitude of the size and complexity of a Visual Studio installation. So, the question becomes: did you stop for a moment to think, or did some subcortical Microsoft bashing reflex twich, just as uncontrollable and as pointless as a knee jerk?

  36. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    And how is the build process for a CPAN module going to automate this if VC isn't installed?
    "Dear user, please go here:http:..., then click this and that, wait for the download, then click setup.exe, wait for the install to finish, then come back here and retry. Oh, and mare sure you use only browser X or Y because Microsoft won't support anything else, and make sure you turn on Javascript, and cookies, ..."

    --
    thegodmovie.com - watch it
  37. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by bXTr · · Score: 1

    If Microsoft bundles other things they should also bundle gigabytes of C++?

    No C compiler requires gigabytes of disk space. C++ isn't used to build Perl.

    This doesn't follow in any logical way, would make no business sense and would inconvenience most users.

    Explain how this would inconvenience anyone.

    Can you even name something comparable that Microsoft bundles with Windows?

    The .NET Runtime. It comes with compiler executables for C#, VB.NET and JScript.NET, and it is installed by default since Windows XP SP2.

    Most stuff they ship with Windows is very minimal, just enough to get you started; I don't believe any of the components not strictly related to the OS itself came even within an order of magnitude of the size and complexity of a Visual Studio installation.

    An IDE, like Visual Studio.NET, is not required to build Perl. You only need a C compiler, linker and make utility.

    --
    It's a very dark ride.
  38. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by johanatan · · Score: 1

    You're correct--two wrongs do not make a right. But, in my opinion, a C compiler is more important than much of the other crap they currently distribute.

  39. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

    But, in my opinion, a C compiler is more important than much of the other crap they currently distribute.

    Spoken like a developer :). But you have to consider that the vast majority Windows users don't know (or care about) C. The comparatively few ones knowledgeable enough to need a compiler are knowledgeable enough to download it (with the exception, apparently, of the grand-grand parent). For the others a media player, or a simple mail/news client, or a simple paint program, or even Minesweeper are more important than a C compiler.

  40. Re:A decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Wi by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

    And how is the build process for a CPAN module going to automate this if VC isn't installed?

    Not a very good question: first, on Windows, most stuff is distributed as binaries. There are lots of tools and facilities for creating installers; compiling source is not a requirement. Anybody who plans to distribute his product in source format to normal Windows users, expecting them to build and install it, has already failed.

    Second, if somebody needs to install perl modules, they belong to the "knowledgeable" subset of users I alluded to in another post. They know the module needs to be compiled, they know to go and download Microsoft's free express compilers, or the proper version of GCC, and they are probably capable to handle minor installation and/or compile time issues. But if you go playing with perl without knowing what a compiler is, all I can say is well, lots of luck.

  41. Programming on Linux by barroomhero · · Score: 1

    Perl, C, C++ will take care of most things also OpenGL if you want to help with CAD alternatives.