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Free Resources for Windows Perl Development
jamie pointed out an important announcement in the Perl community. Adam Kennedy, known as Alias, developed Strawberry Perl to "make Win32 a truly first class citizen of the Perl platform world." Over the last year, major CPAN modules have used Strawberry Perl to get to releases that work trouble-free on Windows. But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing. Now Alias has worked with Microsoft's Open Source Software Lab to provide for every CPAN author free access to a centrally-hosted virtual machine environment containing every major version of Windows. "More information (and press releases) will follow, the entire program under which this partnership will be run is so new it's only just been given a name, so some of the organisational details will ironed out as we go. But for now, to all the CPAN authors, all I have to add is... Merry Christmas. P.S. Or your appropriate equivalent religious or non-religious event, if any, occurring during the month of December, etc., etc."
Win32 is the windows API. Making perl for .NET will be fun. Thankfully Parrot will rope other people into doing most of it.
Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
i hate the break it to you but win32 still dominates the landscape, the cpu being 64bit is irrelevant. sounds like you've been duped by the marketing.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Actually, as far as linux, usually everything just works. I'm sure there's a lot of one off modules that never get anything but a first release and sit unloved but almost everything I've needed to install runs without issue and has done so for years. The only module I can think of on Linux that was a PITA was the SDL libraries, due to the different versions and many library dependencies.
As far as Windows, it depends, all the core stuff is fine, and if you can find it in a ppm repository, you're usually fine, other things that rely on c libs and such , well, YMMV.
-William Shatner can be neither created nor destroyed.
http://tech.slashdot.org/Strawberry
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
It includes a pre-configured CPAN-shell and compilation tools for c modules.
Installation is a bit screwy on Vista; it does require some manuevering there, but it works off to bat on xp.
I, for one, am quite happy that there are other options that function well besies ActivePerl; never liked it. No longer is one dependant on the proprietary ppm packaging so much! The value of CPAN is better put to use here.
Though, businesses that rely on perl might want to wait before abandoning activeperl; strawberry is relatively new here...
perl is dying http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/38010
Maybe this link will be a little more useful: http://strawberryperl.com/
The CPAN testers was conceived back in May 1998 by Graham Barr and Chris Nandor as a way to provide multi-platform testing for modules. Today there are 2,653,748 tester reports and more than 400 testers giving valuable feedback for users and authors alike.
CPAN modules are probably better tested cross-platform than libraries for any other language.
Both of them?
Yes, it's impossible to find a 64-bit only CPU for use with Windows.
Fucking impossible.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Adam, you're the freakin' MAN.
I actually didn't know the breadth of what you were arranging but this is just way beyond what I expected!
I will definitely be taking advantage of this... Next time you're in the Boston area, I want to personally buy you a case of your choice of beer.
(yes, I understand fully that this posting means it's "on the record" :D )
I'm done with sigs. Sigs are lame.
Ah.. so this is how Skynet begins.
Why is ruby better? For one, it's object orientation isn't an after-thought, and it's actually useful. For another, it makes it easy to produce readable code (in perl, readable code requires hard work.) Just wish we could catch up in the CPAN department.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
"...lack of access to a Windows environment..."
Hello? Virtualization?
Hello, obtaining a legal copy of windows?
You are correct. It is.
I see in the list Windows XP and Server 2003 (they're almost the same...), Vista and Server 2008 (they are exactly the same!). Where's Windows 2000? there's quite a large chunk of users left on that platform. Hell, even a few users on Win98 or NT4 still.
I'm not sure your car analogy is apropos. You had a chance of wrenching on an old Buick. Also, back in the day, the impact of a frizbee did not trigger $4k in damage. You never get out of a body shop for less than $4k.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
"...lack of access to a Windows environment..."
Hello? Virtualization?
Hello? They would have to pay if the wanted to do it legally?
I've used ActiveState's ActivePerl on several windows boxes over the years and have had "trouble-free" experiences with it. Granted, some of the more bleeding-edge modules weren't at the latest revs but the mainstream software I used didn't strictly require those either.
The problem with CPAN Testers is that while it can tell you IF your module is broken, it doesn't give you any way to actually get onto Windows to debug the problem. All you can does is guess the fix and upload a new release, and hope for the best.
CPAN Testers is the canary in the coal mine, which is handy, but doesn't actually help clear out the poison.
Having a lot of testers doesn't seem to actually affect the quality of many of the smaller modules. Many of them have absolutely insane dependency chains, requiring both untested, unreliable modules, often from the same author, and completely deprecated modules for the same component, with massive duplication of modules to do the same small task in slightly different ways.
For the core modules, and those exciting modules likely to be included in the next release, I can see the results of testing work. But many of the smaller ones are one-off debris by sloppy programmers that unfortunately show up in the CPAN search engines. No one seems to test them, and they're apparently not tested again after their original publicaton for compatibility with new perl releases.
If one is forced to use an Alias for online life, might as well make it obvious...
Good point - the old "Windows is like a car with the hood welded shut" strikes again! Darned :-)
The frisbee cost is another good point. Open up the wrong email, or surf the wrong site, and you'll spend more to fix the damage than the OS cost in the first place - and that's even if you had "protection", since anti-virus software is just an arms race.
I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. So is Windows Embdedded. Windows Server is gaining marketshare.
YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't. In an above post, you compared Microsoft to GM, and declared that they were dying. Yeah, sure, they're dying exactly like GM, except for the fact that they're making money hand over fist, have over $70 billion in assets, and haven't required a government bailout.
On top of licensing issues, other accumulated comments included the fact many Unix greybeards have never used Windows before, so the accumulated time to find the right torrent, download it, work out how to install everything etc etc was something they greatly didn't look forward to doing.
It's not that they couldn't, it's just that they are busy people, like everyone else, and the time investment was too big for the relatively small win of closing one or two bugs on Windows.
Shortcutting that process by just letting them log directly into a running instance is considered a significant improvement for that group.
I recently updated to Ubuntu 8.10, and discovered that the sleek, fuel-efficient KDE programs I love were ripped out and replaced with hummers. Honestly, Kolourpaint takes up 50% of my cpu drawing a line.
And I do use 32 bit, because my single 2.8 Ghz processor has served me well for three and a half years, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it.
And just to be clear, that 2.8Ghz is more than most cores nowadays, so though I may be stuck in the past, I'd still say that for the most basic of drawing applications, 50% of one of 8 cores is still ridiculous. Buick indeed.
Honestly, even a shop teacher can count the number of users that care about this on their one remaining hand.
Finally, I can make sure my module works on Windows 3.11!
Just last year, I tracked down a machine with Windows 95 and got it working there, but I really wanted to make sure it worked with ALL major Windows operating systems.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Hey! Python can run Perl? That's awesome. Do you have a link for that? I'd love to be able to use my favourite language on what is by all accounts a great interpreter.
(If you want to run Python on Perl instead, you can. Perl: the choice is yours.)
I maintain a few modules on CPAN. Nothing big, I'm the sole author.
In August, I got email from someone complaining that one of these modules doesn't pass its self-tests. After some back and forth, it turns out that it passes on Linux and fails on Windows. They even submitted a patch, but I don't want to integrate it unless I can test it on Windows.
I've got some Windows machines in my house, but I'd have to put together a usable development environment, and it's a hassle, and I've got a day job, and it just hasn't happened in 4 months.
If Alias et. al. can get me access to a Windows environment, this module could get cleaned up a lot sooner.
I sincerely hope so. But until it kicks the bucket, there's software on it which needs to be supported, and improved Windows testing and debugging of current CPAN modules will make the lives of those of us who use those modules on Windows a whole lot easier.
I, for one, welcome our new Perl virus writing overlords.
Perl has been a first class citizen on Win32 starting with the GSAR port back in late 90s, then Perl for Win32 and now ActivePerl.
In fact ActivePerl was more up to date than unix Perl during the late 5.005 and 5.6 because the pumpkin was primarily a Win32 developer.
If you want to find the second class citizens in the Perl world look at OS2, Aix, Hpux, and other strange unixes. I know you want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation you're now working on is misguided. They did a damn fine job.
...IronPerl
KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick
In your eyes. In mine, they both look like the rear end of a dump truck. I choose my UI for how easy it is to work with, not how easy it is to look at.
"Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
Windows Mobile is everywhere.
No
So is Windows Embdedded
No
Most (embedded / server) places that have linux are not advertised as such.
how long until
Whatever other benefits there are, the main beneficiary of porting open source software projects to the Windows platform is Microsoft.
Bear in mind that if there were no Linux, many of the other open source software projects would not have existed.
Microsoft don't even have to embrace and extinguish when the open source projects are doing it for them.
I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. ...
Yes, and that someone is ... you! I'm guessing you didn't see the news Friday that Windows Mobile was just passed in market share by ... the iPhone!
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=iphone+q3+2008+market+share
The problem for fanbois who point to Microsoft's size as a sign of its invincibility is that ... size is not a sign of invincibility.
You're joking, right? Are we talking about the same Windows Mobile that got its doors blown off in the mobile market by OS X on the iPhone in a mere two quarters?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1163
* * * * *
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." —Groucho Marx
Windows Mobile is not everywhere, Windows Mobile is on a bridge to nowhere!
The iPhone has more worldwide market after a mere 2 years, WinMo had over a decade headstart, since it was called WinCE or whatever, and is still irrelevant.
Blackberry dominates in NA, Symbian dominates globally, and Android is going to bite into WinMo's market share before anything else!
GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Do they make you hang out with Ballmer for a week just to get access?
Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
How much of the server growth is due to capacity, though? I'd like to see some numbers comparing how many users a Windows Server host for a web application can support versus, say, BSD, for the same application. I looked around a bit but couldn't find any.
Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.
Or, you could go and download them, geeze! Why bloat installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?
>> If you want to run Python on Perl instead, you can
That you can run Python from other languages (not only Perl) talks very good about the Python's modularity and adaptability. BTW, I understand that Perl programmers logically would want to call and use Python, so this module has a lot of sense.
>> Python can run Perl?
From your interesting link:
"perl is a Python module bundled with Inline::Python that gives you access to Perl from inside your Python code."
BTW, I don't see the need to call Perl from Python, besides using legacy scripts.
regards,
What about gems?
Right, and MS never bloats installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?
Right, and MS never bloats installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?
Your post makes no sense. If Microsoft bundles other things they should also bundle gigabytes of C++? This doesn't follow in any logical way, would make no business sense and would inconvenience most users. Can you even name something comparable that Microsoft bundles with Windows? Most stuff they ship with Windows is very minimal, just enough to get you started; I don't believe any of the components not strictly related to the OS itself came even within an order of magnitude of the size and complexity of a Visual Studio installation. So, the question becomes: did you stop for a moment to think, or did some subcortical Microsoft bashing reflex twich, just as uncontrollable and as pointless as a knee jerk?
And how is the build process for a CPAN module going to automate this if VC isn't installed? ..."
"Dear user, please go here:http:..., then click this and that, wait for the download, then click setup.exe, wait for the install to finish, then come back here and retry. Oh, and mare sure you use only browser X or Y because Microsoft won't support anything else, and make sure you turn on Javascript, and cookies,
thegodmovie.com - watch it
No C compiler requires gigabytes of disk space. C++ isn't used to build Perl.
Explain how this would inconvenience anyone.
The .NET Runtime. It comes with compiler executables for C#, VB.NET and JScript.NET, and it is installed by default since Windows XP SP2.
An IDE, like Visual Studio.NET, is not required to build Perl. You only need a C compiler, linker and make utility.
It's a very dark ride.
You must have one of these mutations that leaves your hands with quite a lot of fingers. 6700 CPAN authors at last count.
You're correct--two wrongs do not make a right. But, in my opinion, a C compiler is more important than much of the other crap they currently distribute.
But, in my opinion, a C compiler is more important than much of the other crap they currently distribute.
:). But you have to consider that the vast majority Windows users don't know (or care about) C. The comparatively few ones knowledgeable enough to need a compiler are knowledgeable enough to download it (with the exception, apparently, of the grand-grand parent). For the others a media player, or a simple mail/news client, or a simple paint program, or even Minesweeper are more important than a C compiler.
Spoken like a developer
I'm one of that group. And yes, my beard *is* going grey. I've not used Windows for over a decade. I have no idea how to set up and configure a current Windows to be secure and to have a reasonable development environment. Nor do I care to learn, as I have better things to do with my time, like making tasty booze and grumbling about The Youth Of Today with their ghetto blasters and hard core pornography.
But if this lets me test my code on Windows before releasing it, and spot and fix stupid errors, then that's a Big Win. I still won't bother fixing any major Windows-only bugs (like Adam says, it's too big a time investment from which I will get no benefit), but the vast majority of bugs are trivial little things and I *will* fix those.
"...lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing."
Reminds me of the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch.
"Do you have any Windows machines?"
"We don't get much call for it around here."
"It's the single most common operating system on the planet!"
"Well not round here!"
I can accept many, many arguments as to why the Perl code hasn't been tested on Windows, but not that the team couldn't find a Windows machine. Surely at least one of them has at least one friend who at least has a dual boot machine. I could buy the argument that they couldn't find an Amiga or BE/Os machine very easily, but Windows? You gotta work pretty hard to avoid Windows that completely.
And how is the build process for a CPAN module going to automate this if VC isn't installed?
Not a very good question: first, on Windows, most stuff is distributed as binaries. There are lots of tools and facilities for creating installers; compiling source is not a requirement. Anybody who plans to distribute his product in source format to normal Windows users, expecting them to build and install it, has already failed.
Second, if somebody needs to install perl modules, they belong to the "knowledgeable" subset of users I alluded to in another post. They know the module needs to be compiled, they know to go and download Microsoft's free express compilers, or the proper version of GCC, and they are probably capable to handle minor installation and/or compile time issues. But if you go playing with perl without knowing what a compiler is, all I can say is well, lots of luck.
Perl, C, C++ will take care of most things also OpenGL if you want to help with CAD alternatives.