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What Restrictions Should Student Laptops Have?

An anonymous reader writes "We're a school district in the beginning phases of a laptop program which has the eventual goal of putting a Macbook in the hands of every student from 6th to 12th grade. The students will essentially own the computers, are expected to take them home every night, and will be able to purchase the laptops for a nominal fee upon graduation. Here's the dilemma — how much freedom do you give to students? The state mandates web filtering on all machines. However, there is some flexibility on exactly what should be filtered. Are things like Facebook and Myspace a legitimate use of a school computer? What about games, forums, or blogs, all of which could be educational, distracting or obscene? We also have the ability to monitor any machine remotely, lock the machine down at certain hours, prevent the installation of any software by the user, and prevent the use of iChat. How far do we take this? While on one hand we need to avoid legal problems and irresponsible behavior, there's a danger of going so far to minimize liability that we make the tool nearly useless. Equally concerning is the message sent to the students. Will a perceived lack of trust cripple the effectiveness of the program?"

84 of 1,117 comments (clear)

  1. none by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    don't be a nazi.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:none by againjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Especially since the statement is "The students will essentially own the computers." Given that that is the intent, then they need to be managed accordingly. That means minimal controls/intrusion, just enough to satisfy the requirement: "The state mandates web filtering on all machines." There is no way one can stop kids from doing things with the machines, nor does one really want to.

      As far as lock down, security assumes no physical access. How do you handle someone who reformats the drive? And disk target mode? Resetting passwords with an install disk? Really, trying to stop someone from doing something to a laptop that they have most of the day every day is not going to work. Do the minimum and forget about it: don't ask don't tell. At home, parents can police. At school, they are watched already.

    2. Re:none by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Give them free rein as far as you can. Filter the legal minimum. Warn the users that if they stuff it up, they will be rewarded with a fresh re-image right down to the oxide. And sell them lots of data keys from the school shop.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    3. Re:none by samkass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I see this argument a lot to justify various technology decisions in schools. Your advice makes a lot of sense for a secretarial or vo-tech program. But generally, the mission of a school is very different from the mission of a corporation, and getting a solid education is about a lot more than how to "prepare them for the real world". Use the tool appropriate for the job-- don't take what corporations do and assume it will be what's best for educational needs.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    4. Re:none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the real world employers don't and or legally can't force you to censor your personal PC's at home, where they are not paying for the Internet Service.

      In this instance the State (via the Education System), is providing a PC to the student, the majority of these student's parents will not "see a need" to buy the student their own privately-owned PC, so essentially it's censorship via manipulation (if you can't filter the kids via the ISPs, do it by providing State-owned/Leased machines with the censorship built-in).

      I wonder if the original poster is an Australian who's school is buying PC's under the Digital Education Revolution instigated by Julia "I'm a Socialist" Gillard

      Anyway... the (clever) kids will bypass the filtering and remote management within a few hours/days of getting the machines, so the point is more or less moot.

    5. Re:none by calmofthestorm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've never used a computer with filtering in any of my schools or jobs and it's been very convenient. Generally you want to just adjust the monitor so it's visible from the hall. Solves a lot of problems.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    6. Re:none by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's a great way to prepare them for the real world, isn't it, where corporate computers are locked down pretty hard. I think a better idea would be to survey some companies (larger ones with as many or more employees as there are students) in the local area and average out their practices.

      In the real world, the kids will have their own computers at home.

      Trying to make schools resemble businesses isn't a good goal. Their business is to teach, not to make money.

      Now, with that said, the kids don't need to be watching tentacle porn instead of doing their homework, on a laptop provided by taxpayers. They can get an old machine for ten bucks at a thrift store for that, assuming that they don't already have one. This has nothing to do with "preparing them for the 'real world'", which a school quite frankly cannot do.

      Block sites that are only pornography (yes, the smart ones will get around this, but they probably already know whatever it is they're studying), leave political sites alone, and do whatever you want with the social networking sites. Err on the side of non-restriction if there's a question.

    7. Re:none by Firehed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So basically, filter the school's net connection with a squid server to satisfy the relevant laws and provide parents with appropriate tools that are available should they be deemed necessary.

      With any machine really (Macs, especially), you can try to spend all of your time dealing with the odd student or two that would keep some warezed-up disk image on a bootable firewire drive and never really solve the problem, or just ignore it and get back to fixing the printer problems that your supervisor is bitching about. Trying to deal with students that know how to initiate an ssh tunnel to their home machine is a complete waste of time - they're smart, know what they're doing, and have a lot more free time to screw around than you do.

      I agree - don't ask, don't tell seems to be a pretty decent policy. I pretty much had an unspoken agreement with my high school IT department that so long as I wouldn't show other people how to bypass their security measures and I didn't do anything that would kill the network or get someone arrested, they'd ignore my screwing about.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    8. Re:none by morari · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the purposes of a public school system is to assist in the successful development of children. Protecting them from potentially damaging information falls under that umbrella.

      Successful development, huh? I think you mean systematic conditioning for conventional thought. The very fact that you would deem certain types of information as "damaging" shows just how well the construct worked for you.

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
    9. Re:none by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One of the purposes of a public school system is to assist in the successful development of children. Protecting them from potentially damaging information falls under that umbrella.

      What in the world? "Potentially damaging information"? Isn't that what China tells its citizens its great firewall project or golden shield thing prevents? Honestly, wow, a kid can access porn, that isn't damaging, they are going to find out what a naked person looks like eventually. Wow, a kid can access MySpace/Facebook/Whatever other popular networking site and talk to their friends, so damaging. Haven't people realized that porn and gossip spread before the internet? Before it was some guy who managed to sneak a Playboy into class and people passing notes, did that include "potentially damaging information"? This "potentially damaging information" is what anyone would call "censorship by an oppressive government".

      If parents don't mind their children accessing MySpace then they are within their right to allow it on a home computer. School systems however, are not required to assume that all parents allow it nor should they be expected to do so themselves.

      So wait, can we now say that because no parents have expressly approved the use of Google we should ban it? Whitelisting sites like that is honestly, is an idea that can only be expressed as "stupid" along with "retarded". Wait, but lets not stop with websites, lets now expect parents to approve all curriculum by the school! If parent's don't approve the teaching of prime numbers, lets stop it! And who knows where it would go with evolution, no doubt it wouldn't even be allowed to be taught even as a "theory".

      As far as locking out installation of software, this should be fully supported. It can't be assumed that adolescents are capable of determining appropriate software to be installed and to avoid websites which could install malware. By locking down a system from a security standpoint will save energy in troubleshooting problems and performing maintenance.

      Riiiight, like you know, all the parents who click the banner ads wanting the free screensavers featuring kittens do. On most matters, a teenager knows a ton more about computers than the average adult. Secondly, this is talking about a Macbook, those things are just about immune to viruses. Yes, some forms of malware do exist, but I'm not going to get a virus just by going to a website like you can on a Windows box.

      And on troubleshooting problems, just reformat the thing. It works 100% of the time, and takes off all viruses (well, unless you somehow have a virus in your BIOS or something like that, but those are unlikely). Secondly, school is going to teach people about the real world, if I manage to mess up a computer, my data is gone, it teaches students how to actually use a computer rather than just have a understanding of computers.

      Oh, and by the way, I'm sure the Nazi Party and the Communist Party of China fully endorse your post.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    10. Re:none by Your.Master · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But they legally can and do enforce client-side restrictions on the employer's hardware that the employee has custody of at home. Which is what is being proposed.

      That said, I think the restrictions should be minimal -- mostly for legal compliance. You can maybe justify blocking pornography, warez sites, and sites known to spread malware. Past that, everything has a high chance of getting in the way of education and a low chance of "corrupting the youth" or some such damn thing. Certainly social networking, youtube, and flash games should be allowed. In fact, social networking sites can be one of the biggest educational BENEFITS of a computer.

    11. Re:none by dmizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the real world employers don't and or legally can't force you to censor your personal PC's at home, where they are not paying for the Internet Service.

      Too bad you posted AC, that's worth some mod points.

      Reality is, the school has no jurisdiction over what the student does off school grounds. Including what they do on their computer.

      IANAL, but if you want to control what they can and can't do with the computers, you have to keep the computers on school property. Otherwise, I suspect you would be running into legal issues.

      The above post is also right in recognizing that no matter what you do to try to prevent the students from doing certain things on the computer ... if they want to do it, they'll do it. Live CD's anyone? How about a dual boot?

    12. Re:none by CatOne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's ridiculous. They are educational tools, they're not for collecting and surfing porn. Not to mention, in many cases, schools can be exposed to criminal liability if students do some classes of things. Some degree of control is necessary to limit this liability.

      Also, if you just give the kids the computers, they'll fart around on them all day long and pay NO attention to the classes. It's often necessary to use something like Apple Remote Desktop to lock the students' screens so they'll actually pay attention during class.

      I'm not convinced that a laptop per child improves the overall learning experience. But certainly if it does, it has to be managed to some extent.

    13. Re:none by ceifeira · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That makes a lot of sense. In fact, while you're at it, why don't you beat up a few of the kids? You know, to get them ready for the real world, because we sure don't want them to get used to all the love. I think a better idea would be to survey some bullies (larger ones of course, one per student) in the local area and average out their practices.

    14. Re:none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I was at a school which did this - issued free computers with filtering.
      The filtering DID NOT WORK. And I get reports from students today that it still doesn't.
      You can look up hardcore porn on google, but if someone sends you an IM that says "panties" it knocks you offline.

      And if you're in an anatomy class, you can forget that research you have to do.

      Just do the ABSOLUTE minimum the state requires. Filters are worthless, will -never- prevent students from looking up porn/talking to stalkers, and piss everyone off.

    15. Re:none by Burz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Excellent response.

      I will go a bit further and caution against raising a generation of students that view intrusion/lockdown and censorship of their own machines as normal. It's a VERY bad precedent, and I suggest converting the school's laptop program to either a computer financing assistance program, or having the students borrow what are clearly understood to be the school's laptops.

      In short, AC's school district is on the wrong track unless they want to teach surveillance culture and "computer literacy" that amounts to everything under the hood being hands-off. The schools need mind their own business, i.e. monitor and defend their school computers and networks, and stay out of student's computers the way they would stay out of the engine compartments of students' cars.

    16. Re:none by Iamthecheese · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I, for one, hope they have very strong filtering methods that require some real knowledge to bypass. You will be pitting their desire to be lazy against their 14-year-old hormones and they will, completely by accident, end up with very useful knowledge about information security.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    17. Re:none by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you can set the password and prevent booting to an external disk or the CD drive, which would prevent booting the installer. The password reset thing isn't on the install disk btw.

      Internal laptop drives are incredibly cheap and easy to swap nowadays.

      1. Install new hard drive with linux
      2. Run the original OS in a VM.
      3. Charge other students for same unlocked setup - PROFIT!
    18. Re:none by Klootzak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, I've always wondered what would happen if the worlds armies and security forces were placed between a bunch of horny teenagers and their porn... there WOULD be a massacre, but I'm not quite sure it'd be the kids on the losing side. ;)

      --
      A Man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties -- Albert Einstein
    19. Re:none by torkus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Heck, how about a restore CD, hard drive swap, etc. etc. etc. Most people here know that physical access = compromised system.

      And it's really that simple. The more rules and restrictions you put around this, the more you will make "criminals" out of ordinary students. If you make it a suspend-able offense to tamper, kids will truecrypt a dual boot partition, swap drives for 'inspection time' or any one of a number of things. I guar-an-tee-ee that the student body will break whatever restrictions are put on the systems. While it's a good lesson to get them familiar with the computers, i doubt it's the kind of lesson you intend to teach.

      I know there are some legal restrictions - i would do the bare minimum to meet those. THEN, set the expectation that students are responsible for the content of their laptops. If a student is caught showing or looking at porn *on school time/property*, they should be punished severely. Similar for wares, etc.

      But let's be honest... Give a 16 year old boy a computer and his first private action is going to be to look for porn. If you try to prevent that entirely you're 1) fighting the inevitable B) not dealing with the reality of the situation and iii) wasting everyone's time.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    20. Re:none by calzones · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Don't be a nazi" is not just the most ethical advice, it's also the most practical.

      Here's how to defeat any censorship attempts:

      1) boot macbook while holding T key and it's connected to another mac via firewire
      2) drag home folder / apps and files you care about off your macbook when it shows up as an external FW drive on the other machine
      3) launch disk utility on the other machine and reformat the drive on the macbook
      4) shut down the macbook and boot it back up using the Leopard install DVD
      5) install Leopard
      6) migrate your files back and enjoy your new computer

      Here's how you REALLY NEED TO HANDLE IT:

      IN THE SCHOOL
      1) set up port and internet filtering as per state/local law and reasonable requirements. Block chat stuff.
      2) walk around frequently to monitor usage
      3) make restrictions and penalties for unauthorized usage crystal clear

      AT HOME
      Students are free to do whatever they want with the laptop but parents are on the hook to ensure the students don't do anything the parents don't want. It's not the school's responsibility anymore once it's at home.

      --
      Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    21. Re:none by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I support this, but not on grounds of being "no nazi" but simply on grounds of common sense.

      The more you restrict, the higher the chance that your pupils mess with your setup to circumvent your restrictions. I.e. the tighter you put the restrictions, the more maintainence will be required to keep the computers in a working state. You're not their employer. You can't fire them when they "accidently" break their computers time and time again. You can't even give them worse grades because it will backfire on you again when parents complain that you required those notebooks and now you even punish their precious little kid when your damn machines from hell don't work.

      And heavens forbid if they actually manage to break the security mechanisms. Because one thing is certain: Things go around at the schoolyard REALLY fast. If one machine is broken, it takes no week 'til all of them are. Factor in that the average 8-12 grader has a LOT more spare time to break the machine than you have to secure it. They have the internet and thus the tools, and they have no inhibition to use them both against you and your security mechanisms trying to keep them from using their machine the way they want to.

      Then you're liable because you actually implemented security AND you cannot enforce it.

      What I would suggest is that you brush off the blame to the parents. Have them sign a paper that their kids may only use the notebooks the way they are supposed to be used. If they can't enforce it, sucks to be them. But at least they won't come to you and blame you if little Jonny is looking at pron on the computer he got from you.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    22. Re:none by Annatar22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention all the lock out features in the world don't really matter if the kid just goes out and buys a second hard drive and swaps it out with the old one. Not to expensive, and pretty likely when dealing with high schoolers. Better to just filter while at school, and reimage the machines when they mess than up with a $60 'time waster' penalty or something. Besides some creative kid will figure out how to do it and charge $20 and make some money ;).

    23. Re:none by andy_t_roo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      why not just have a proxy which you have to log into to access the net and all the pictures that come in through it are plastered on a monitor in the staff room, along with the name of the user who is currently logged into that computer? - instant internet monitoring from a central location, with little effort to set up, although actual enforcement could be "interesting"

    24. Re:none by Jeff- · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're talking to a group of people who mostly had regular access to internet pornography throughout their teenage years. I'd wager most managed to still become normal productive citizens. I bet a lot of them still did homework even. Not that I did, but it certainly wasn't due to porn. You can only wank for so many hours in a day, hormones or not.

      Censoring kids just makes them sheltered and naive or criminals when they circumvent it.

    25. Re:none by grimJester · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now, with that said, the kids don't need to be watching tentacle porn instead of doing their homework, on a laptop provided by taxpayers. They can get an old machine for ten bucks at a thrift store for that, assuming that they don't already have one.

      Blocking pornography specifically is simply a moral judgment. "Instead of doing their homework" is a flawed argument.

      There are loads of things that waste time and are not related to homework. Why single out pornography? Filters meant for pornography routinely block all kinds of non-pornographic content either deemed objectionable by the people maintaining the blacklist or simply containing words often seen on pornographic web sites.

      Not all time is used on homework. Why prevent people from using the computer for unrelated things in their free time? What's the point in having to buy another computer for these unrelated things? Why get them these computers in the first place if restrictions make it necessary to get another without restrictions?

      What's the point of the filter in the first place if the kids are supposed to have another computer without content filtering?

    26. Re:none by kabocox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The more rules and restrictions you put around this, the more you will make "criminals" out of ordinary students.

      Giggles. This is funny. Have you even bothered to read any school hand books lately? Doesn't matter if it's for elementary, middle, or high school. They all just about make every student a hand book criminal for just being a human student that attends their educational system. It's been ages since I had to attend public school from the inside, but as I liked to refer to it, it's the other public penal institution where every one is sent for being guilty of being within a certain age range.

      If they really want to stop problems, they'd just treat the thing like a text book. If you return it or show up with the thing "damaged" in any visible way to those that assigned it to you, expect to pay at least the purchase price of the thing. Also you could make the tech support fines for when it is really a user thing instead of a laptop thing either $50-100 and that would stop most of the student related tech support right there. (Expect to be doing a lot of cloning from decent machines at the end of the year when you reclaim the things though.)

      I'm mixed on the entire concept. Why? Because in order for all these educational systems to provide laptops to the their students, their parents will being more in taxes regardless to get the thing in place and run the damn program. How many of those parents would have much rather had gone out to buy their own laptop, but now suddenly can't quite afford because their cost of living is a bit higher due to these hidden "educational taxes." Every time I'm in walmart, I think about buying one of those $350 laptops for my kid. $350 is a ton of money to me, but I'd like to spend it if other cost of living bills didn't drain my paycheck before the end of the month. Why should I want to support higher taxes to give every child a locked down laptop when I'd rather save a bit and buy my kid our own unlocked laptop and hook it up to a WAP over the home DSL? It's plans like these that slow my ability to even save up for that damn cheap laptop.

    27. Re:none by Blkdeath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the real world employers don't and or legally can't force you to censor your personal PC's at home, where they are not paying for the Internet Service.

      Too bad you posted AC, that's worth some mod points. Reality is, the school has no jurisdiction over what the student does off school grounds. Including what they do on their computer.

      Too bad they aren't the students' computers; they belong to the school until end of year/term when the students have an option to purchase. Only after the student has purchased the laptop should the restrictions come off but not before.

      If the students want the freedom to do whatever they want they should purchase a personal computer and Internet connection, but shouldn't be at all surprised when the school forbids them to connect said laptops to the school network.

      A lot of people are talking from a purely outside perspective on this issue which is totally understandable. OTOH, I was an administrator for a high school network so I understand the dilemma faced by the admins in this story. On one hand you have the notion that you just leave the computers wide open and trust in the maturity and good nature of the students and don't spend time and energy in finding and closing all the possible back doorways into the systems.

      On the other hand you have a lot of immature students who feel a sense of entitlement with everything they touch. They "should" be able to use Facebook, MySpace, play all sorts of games, install whatever "cool software/screensaver" whatever that's recommended by their friend. This causes administrative headaches especially when little buglets come into the network and start wreaking havoc for the rest of the as-yet uninfected computers in the building/campus. Further, the laptops themselves become bogged down with popups, viruses, trojans and other malware and cease to be useful for the student to do the work for which it was intended and the admin find themselves in a situation where they need to devote time to diagnose the specific symptoms when they could instead be doing one of any number of more important tasks.

      All our systems were tethered, desktop PCs. One of our primary tactics was to constantly find, diagnose, research and secure any/all holes discovered by the students, update our workstation image and re-image the entire school. That way if anything ever were to be installed/corrupted on one of the workstations it would be wiped atleast weekly so they'd have to try to do the damage all over again the following day/week. This also forced students to store all files in their home directory on the server (which was policy anyways) where we could quota the file storage (1000 students and 100 staff sharing a 50GB RAID array meant there wasn't too much to go around!) and investigate any delinquent behaviour.

      The goals of personal freedom are all well and good, but when they're not reigned in with a deepened sense of the personal responsibility that should always accompany such freedom it's a dangerous situation. I venture to say that until most of you have been faced with administrating a network comprised almost entirely of immature students you should take and give advice with a suitable quantity of NaCL.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    28. Re:none by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their business is to teach

      No. That is not what their business is, at least not any more. I work at a school, the goal of teaching is not third or fourth (or even further) down the list.

      Primary goal is to get kids to the next grade level, while maintaining minimum standards. And by Minimum Standards, I mean MINIMUM. It has come down to lowest common denominator schooling.

      Second goal is indoctrination of Liberal Progressive ideology. For example, while teaching on "Global Warming" it is taught as fact, that humans are the sole cause, and there is universal consensus by all scientists. I can go on, but it would be pointless.

      Third Goal, graduate people who can work as automatons in service industries.

      Fourth Goal, is to provide babysitting/child care service to working parents.

      Education, true education, is about teaching people to love learning. To explore, think and learn. If one sparks this love of learning then the world will open up for the students. A master teacher doesn't teach anything, s/he allows his/her students to "discover" the material.

      "Teaching facts" isn't teaching. A computer can spew facts out all day long, I wouldn't call it a teacher.

      Real education cannot be mass produced in a one size fits all formula. Which is why our educational system is failing.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    29. Re:none by apoc.famine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not sure I see what the question is here. If the students "essentially own the computers", and they take them home to their own network, on their own time, why would you be restricting them at all?

      Your network on your time? Sure. Restrict away. I'd bet there is already a school proxy for the computer labs there.

      I wonder if it doesn't come down to the wording of the state laws. Does the school district have to restrict all of its machines, machines on campus, or machines connecting to the school's network? I'd bet that the latter is the most likely.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  2. No offense... by BorgAssimilator · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We also have the ability to monitor any machine remotely, lock the machine down at certain hours, prevent the installation of any software by the user, and prevent the use of iChat.

    No offense or anything, but I wouldn't touch one of those with a 10 foot pole with those restrictions, especially with the "monitor any machine remotely" part.

    --
    "Intelligence has nothing to do with politics!"
    -Londo Mollari
    1. Re:No offense... by Pheonix28 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the school is SUPPLYING the laptop, then they should be allowed to filter it. If you don't like the filtering, DON'T USE THE LAPTOP.

  3. They'll just use their own laptops. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can't put too many restrictions on them, or else they'll ditch the school-provided laptops for something else.

    1. Re:They'll just use their own laptops. by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you're missing the much for obvious reason with the same end. They're macbooks and almost nobody uses just macs at home. They're used to PCs so nobody's going to give up all theri learned XP knowledge not to mention right click button for some overpriced macbook. Why not save $400-800 and get an equivilant windows PC? Don't you read Apple's marketing department mission statement: "we only sell to showey douchebags who will pay more for a brand name even if it's a glitchy, underperforming piece of junk" It's right on their wall on a big poster. Microsoft's is a much more vague "never forget, we own the customers." Speaking of that, how about a Linux netbook?

      --
      Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  4. What Restrictions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They should not be allowed to use them during the time that they are supposed to be learning.

  5. Can of worms. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What are kids going to to do when they break these things taking them home very night? I wouldn't want my kid carrying around one of the schools computers every day.

    1. Re:Can of worms. by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Insightful

          I was going to reply to the OP, but you asked the magic question.

          Traveling moderately with laptops, mine have had a life expectancy of about 1 year. I've been lucky with my current one (a HP zv6000) which has passed about 3 years or so. I always treat my laptops moderately well (carried carefully, avoided dropping them), yet something fails.

          One dropped dead after passing over the rollers at an x-ray machine at an airport.
          One dropped dead after running in a warm room for one night.
          One got the screen cracked when a helpful stewardess shoved someone's luggage into mine in the overhead storage bin. Ahhh, gotta love airplanes.

          Hmmm, I can't remember the others, other than the life expectancy was only about a year.

          I know I'm not alone. I've worked on countless office laptops. Those that survive a year are real troopers. The best survivor other than my own was a 3 year old Toshiba tablet. It lost the hard drive and touch screen. Replacement parts were cheaper than replacing the unit, so I fixed it.

          I'm talking about grown adults, who like (or depend) on their laptops for work.

          Now, a bunch of 8th to 12th graders running around with laptops? Besides mishandling on their own behalf, what happens when the bully makes a frisbee about off the little kids laptop? What happens when they spill a drink on it? Put their books down hard on the top and crack the screen? Oh, the scenarios I could list, and they'll still never account for the all the real possibilities.

          With proper handling you may get a year, with improper handling, I'd see replacing hordes of them monthly. I feel sorry for the IT department who's going to handle the problems, but I feel worse for the taxpayers who are going to foot the bill.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:Can of worms. by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My Eee PC feels like it could take much more of a beating than my full-size Laptop.

      Small is good when it comes to rigidity. I don't like to stand anything heavy on the laptop with the lid closed - it doesn't take much weight to flex the lid downwards into the screen. My EEE PC's lid is a lot stronger.

      ASUS also makes it very easy to get spare parts - http://estore.asus.com/ in the USA and http://www.asusparts.eu/ in Europe.

      Netbooks are defintely the way to go for traveling.

      --
      No sig today...
  6. What Restrictions Should Student Laptops Have? by djupedal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about ....n o n e...?

    Given that most students will need little time to work around any restrictions in their way. Use the program as a way to demonstrate trust.

    1. Re:What Restrictions Should Student Laptops Have? by hkmarks · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems like blocking at least some websites is necessary.

      But that should be done at the server/router/whatever point. Put no restrictions on the laptops themselves.

      If Facebook ends up causing problems, I'd recommend blocking it (while at school only!), but setting up a school forum (vBulletin or something) and allowing students to interact, collaborate, and plan events there. Moderate it to prevent bullying and bad behaviour, but not too harshly.

    2. Re:What Restrictions Should Student Laptops Have? by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Limit Internet connectivity to the school router while at school, but allow them the means to use a different ISP while at home. The connectivity should be the same, but the content at home could be their's and their parent's problem. Should be pretty easy to set up.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  7. ...What? by AnonGCB · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why on earth are you choosing macbooks, aren't there better options for your school? Off the top of my head, the asus eee 900 line would be great, the 900A or 901 would both be great and can be loaded with linux easily, or leave the xandros that comes with it on and it'll work fine. I doubt the students will have the know how to hack linux.

    --
    http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    1. Re:...What? by damn_registrars · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sure there were reasons. Hopefully more than just the "because they're pretty" reasons.

      Two reasons come to mind quickly:

      • Academic discounts
      • Compatibility with pretty well everything on the web

      While the EEE PCs are certainly per-seat cheaper than MacBooks, how good is the flash support on those? On the other end of the spectrum, you can get excellent flash support on low-end laptops from Dell or other PC companies, but they probably still won't go as low on academic volume pricing as Apple.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    2. Re:...What? by Kalriath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are arguments in favor of the asus as well (cheap, moderately usable, teach the kids about free software, cheap) but don't act like using a mac for education is so ridiculous.

      It is so ridiculous. There is no way taxpayer money should be used to purchase something as ridiculously overpriced as a bulk load of MacBooks (a few for school use, fine). This school board needs some serious management changes if they're greenlighting this sort of purchase when there are much cheaper options.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    3. Re:...What? by mdarksbane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, a school district with kind of financing is *likely* in an area where they can afford it.

      School budgets are funded mostly from local taxes. The "public" schools in ritzy neighborhoods spend money much more wastefully than this. I used to volunteer at one - they had field turf in the stadium, 24" screens in all the labs, and a full robotics program - heck, you even get cisco certified in high school. And they had no debt and churned out more high-quality graduates than any place I'd seen.

      Not every school is strapped for funding.

    4. Re:...What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      It is ridiculous.
      Neither iMovie nor Photoshop have any place in a classroom. You can use them at home. What next? iChat? avidemux? How about Gimp instead of Photoshop? Cinelerra instead of iMovie?
      Besides that, iMovie08 is shit.
      You're simply a MacFanboy.
      Photoshop and iMovie in no way justify the cost of the Macs, let alone the cost of Photoshop itself. Besides, Photoshop runs on Windows, so a cheaper standard laptop with Windows has everything except your crappy iMovie.
      Don't claim OSX is sooo much easier to maintain or use than Windows or Linux. It isn't.
      I have 7 Linux-PCs (2 "constantly" backup the others) at home, networked, maintained by 5 cronjobs (400 LOCs) on the mainserver taking care of the other 6 and 1 cronjob on each of those 6, sending me an email to work if the mainserver should not respond to ping anymore and starting a backup-script of the cronjobs of the mainserver.
      I spend maybe 10-15 minutes checking out the logs of the day when I come home.

      In a school you should learn how to use some form of word processing, some spreadsheets processing and how to handle a database.
      Both OpenOffice and MS Office will do fine.
      Then the fundamentals of computer science. Then coding.

  8. Academic vs personal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you express your goals as "Academic" then restrictions are seen in a different light.
    In the scenario you described, "they practically own" the computer yet there need to be so many restrictions for the School to be happy, you have a conflict. You can't have it both ways.
    Web filtering is a yes, in my opinion. Any legitimate website with real content does not need to be grouped with trashy websites. Meaning if you block all friendster's you aren't actually blocking anything that's "A useful must have" because if it were it wouldn't be grouped with myspace (which everyone basically views as a portal to idleness).
    Block certain protocols as well, p2p, etc. This gives you deniability ("We didn't give students the ability to pirate software/media, they achieved that by bypassing our reasonable protections).

    In a nutshell you need to iron out the goal of these computers. They can't be both personal and school only computers at the same time.
    That's my opinion.

  9. What's the goal here? by modestmelody · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why are students each getting a laptop? What's the goal? Is it to have a single environment with a single set of software that students can all work on commonly to assure instruction can make use of computers effectively? Is it simply to ensure students have computer literacy and/or access to computers for those who do not? How are you going to use these laptops day to day that is unique to what can be done from a home computer or library computer or computer cluster? These are the questions you have to ask before determining how much you want to limit student use. My initial inclination is that limiting the ability to mess with these computers is a huge mistake. It makes students less likely to learn about the machines they're using and less likely to use these machines. It makes these computers a hassle and something used solely for class assignments that cannot be done any other way and a paper weight the rest of the time. The only limitations should be use of anti-virus software and other protections so that they cannot hurt the network at the school when attached to it. Blocking ports for instant messaging services and internet filtering while in school is appropriate to ensure the integrity of the network, but crippling the computers is not necessary or advantageous. Are students really going to be expected to use a single machine bought in 6th grade through 12th grade? Are you going to be able to remove these restrictions, and be willing to go through the work to do so, when students buy their computers out right when they graduate? That could be a ton of work. Protect the network, block stuff from coming in that can affect other machines, but don't cripple the computers themselves. You'll only assure their limited use/usefulness. But honestly, before spending all that money, there need to be some good answers as to why your curriculum has unique needs that require each student have a laptop.

    1. Re:What's the goal here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Paragraphs, use 'em!

    2. Re:What's the goal here? by kklein · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am a teacher. I am a techie geek. But these are the same questions I had.

      Here is what happens in education: Some idiot thinks up a sexy idea like giving laptops to all the students. He or she runs around squawking about it until it gets to the ears of the person controlling the money (or maybe it's a grant). Idea goes forward.

      Then people ask what they should be doing.

      No one knows, so a bunch of people who don't know anything about computers or video cameras or whatever it is that has been purchased try to incorporate them in their lessons, because they are there. It's not clear why they need to be in the lessons, but they feel like they are wasting something if they don't use it.

      Totally simple, straightforward things that were meant to teach, say, research skills, now become a byzantine mess of dealing with people's crappy PowerPoint skills, printing out webpages, stammering, and teachers trying (and probably failing) to address technical issues (and then coming to my office for me to sort them out).

      You know how many computers I use in my classes?

      None. And I eat computers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I just don't think they offer much in the way of education. They have revolutionized what kind and how much research we can do. They have made it very easy to write academic prose (in the old days you literally had to cut and paste, and then re-type). They allow you to move information around quickly and easily.

      They are tools. That's all. Learning does not magically happen the moment you crack open a laptop.

      Design the curriculum first, then get laptops if it calls for them as necessary.

      But, speaking from experience, it probably doesn't.

  10. Good lesson in black market economics by vanyel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The geeks in the classes will make a killing doing clean installs for those who can't figure out how to do it themselves. It will also install a very healthy antipathy for authority, what isn't already created by the school officials' other, similarly misguided, actions.

  11. Wrong forum by Jeff+Hornby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're really asking the wrong people about this. Most of the replies you're going to get on Slashdot will be no restrictions because I wouldn't want restrictions on my machine. This is true for adults but you're dealing with children, some as young as 11 years old.

    The people you really should be talking to are the parents in your district. Ultimately what their children see and how they interact with the world is up to the parents. I imagine that you will probably have a number of views that you will have to synthesize. Perhaps even create a number of different user profiles and allow parents to choose which one their child will fit into. But the first stop is ask the parents. As an upside, some of the parents will have grappled with many of the same problems at work and will probably have some insights.

    --
    Why doesn't Slashdot ever get slashdotted?
    1. Re:Wrong forum by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm so glad the C64 I had when I was 11 came with restrictions, otherwise I might have learned something.. oh wait.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Wrong forum by AceofSpades19 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      except when the smart ones tell the dumb ones what to do

  12. Only at school by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There should only be restrictions while the users are at school. There shouldn't be any restrictions outside of school—it's in loco parentis, not semper parentis.

    As such, any filtering should be left on your network connection. If you want to block the ports iChat uses at school, go ahead. If you want to filter the web, go ahead. But there's no reason they shouldn't be able to use them at home.

    --
    Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    1. Re:Only at school by Shin-LaC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The root problem seems to be that the GP is misunderstanding the meaning of "in loco parentis". It doesn't mean "parent in the place", it means "in the stead of the parent": "loco" in that sentence is equivalent to "stead", and has nothing to do with the school grounds, or any space or time limitation.

  13. Qs by ImOnlySleeping · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since when do grade 6 students get laptops at school? And what happens when students "lose" the laptops? And what student is possibly going to buy a 6 year old laptop when they graduate? If someone offered to sell you a laptop from 2002 right now, how much do you think you'd pay? So many questions.

    --
    Everybody seems to think I'm lazy I don't mind, I think they're crazy
  14. Contradiction by sheetsda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The students will essentially own the computers, are expected to take them home every night

    We also have the ability to monitor any machine remotely, lock the machine down at certain hours, prevent the installation of any software by the user, and prevent the use of iChat

    These two statements are contradictory. The sooner you accept this the less expensive the lesson will be for all involved.

  15. easy answer by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry, but the answer to this one is really easy. There's no evidence that giving laptops out to K-12 students has any positive effect on education whatsoever. Since their educational effectiveness is zero, the educational impact of any of these decisions that you make will also be zero. If you want to make absolutely sure you don't get sued by parents who are upset about how their kids were damaged for life by seeing porn, uncable all the hard disks before you hand out the computers.

  16. Reality on line 1 by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My mom recently caught my kid sister (age 12) visiting some "inappropriate sites", and immediately went off the deep end, asking about filtering, auditing, locking the system down, the works. So we talked about it, and I let it sit for a few days, then invited my friend over and we had a "big sister" chat. And then I showed her how to delete entries from her browsing history.

    Let me tell you right now -- there's no way to lock a system down. There's no way to filter, audit, etc., to a kid. Besides, kids are bored most of the time anyway and all you're giving them is a challenge. So the way I see it, you've got two options -- either you act as the gatekeeper, or you act as the guide. You can't be both.

    The gatekeeper is the filters, the auditing, the monitoring -- in short, the parent. Is this a role you want to play as school administrators? Are you prepared for the legal responsibility? I know you're going to be catching flack from people like my mom who are going to throw a knipshit the moment their precious snowflake gets busted reading harry potter slashfic, or realize that google image search for hentai or eucci brings up cartoon-depicted sex acts. They'll be at your school board meetings, on your voice mail, and holding the ears of everyone they can get a hold of. Visualize that for a minute. The state of the art in filtering and monitoring cannot and never will fully succeed in its stated goals, if only because it's a shifting target and defining "appropriate for minors" is about as useful an excercise as re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Your second role is equally perilous. You be the guide -- which means educating those students. This is the computer equivalent of sex ed classes. You need to tell them what's online (and I mean what's really out there), what the risks are, and how they can protect themselves. You need to instill in them the ability to make moral and ethical decisions about their conduct online, with the explicit understanding that you can't stop them from going where they shouldn't -- only that they know what the consequences are (or could be). And here again, the parents are going to throw a knipshit and want your head over religious matters, etc., and flying spaghetti monster we go.

    My advice is to offer some limited education to the students about what's out there, how to stay safe, and offer filtering and monitoring software for the parents to use. Ultimately you need to get the responsibility for how the students use these systems off your shoulders, or you will find yourself in a very special kind of hell that will do neither your school district nor your career any good. The key words here is "informed consent." You make a good faith effort to educate, cover your ass with disclaimers, and leave the final decision to the parents. Do not give these people any way to wiggle out of responsibility for their darling little crotch-fruit. It's blunt, but there it is -- you have to look out for yourself here first.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
  17. Facebook and Twitter, etc... by MadCow42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    >>Are things like Facebook and Myspace a legitimate use of a school computer?

    Well, I didn't think they were a legitimate thing for a business computer... but now our company is on a "social networking" rampage. We're actually being encouraged to use them, but nobody seems to be able to quantify the business benefit yet, other than "get networking!". Yay.

    And yes, I work for a Fortune-500 company (actually, a pretty stuffy historical brand name)

    --
    I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
  18. What a waste! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is a terrible waste of money. Students do not need a computer to learn.

  19. The question: what are you trying to accomplish? by crescente · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it "protecting kids from themselves"? Besides the fact of whether you want to do this or not, many kids will have access to their parents' or friends laptops anyway. Are you trying to cover your ass if they do something dumb? Just trust the damn students. Put the responsibility on them: if they accept the laptop, they accept that they have to decide what is "good, moral, proper" etc. to do on the laptop, with all the consequences of it. If you start policing, you're basically implicitly assuming responsibility for the kids, not allowing them to take responsibility, or for the parents to teach them responsibility. When you do screw up and let the kids download child porn, it'll be all on your head.

  20. It's a waste of money. by mpd2008 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Learning does not require a computer.

  21. Make the parents sign for the level they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Make the parents sign for the level they want including an opt out or no networking capability.

    It is their responsibility (not yours). Whatever level you choose if a kid commits suicide after getting some harassment or commits fraud or...on the laptop you need the legal protection.

  22. Worthless endevor. by LoRdTAW · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is everyone so convinced that giving students laptops will act as an educational magic bullet? Locking them down will only cause the students to try and work around the restrictions. Whats to prevent them from using a live Linux CD to browse the web as they please?

    Laptops wont do shit to improve learning by any means. Teachers along with parents are the most important part in a child's education. And students today from what I have observed really don't value education. And that started at home. Too many students in one class who don't value education causes the teacher to literally give up. I grew up in a house where both my parents hold masters degrees. My mother and father always took me and my brother on educational family outings. Queens hall of science, Libery science center, Edison meuseam, Zoos, other museums etc. I was never a good student but my mother helped me through allot of my problems and made sure I got through school. My father ran the family business which was a machine shop, wood shop and also did entertainment. He would take me to machinery trade shows and all kinds of interesting places. He also let me play at his shop and imposed no real restrictions. He let me be as creative as possible even teaching me how to use some real dangerous machines like band saws, lathes, milling machines, bench grinders and table saws.

    Bottom line is my parents created an environment that encouraged education and learning. They knew its value and made sure both me and my brother will be successful in life (This is a big part of Jewish culture, and no I am not Jewish). No computer will ever provide that. If you want to give them computers make them available for students to use in school computer labs or library's. They can do all the research they need and you wont have to worry about laptops being stolen, destroyed or hacked. Giving kids laptops will only distract them more. There is no magic bullet, if the parents don't give a shit then neither will the kids. And it seems to be a growing epidemic.

  23. I just hope by sentientbrendan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That you leave root access on, or at least install the developer tools.

    What the real tragedy is, is that when school's lock machine's down, they usually do it in a way that prevents the main goal of giving the kids access to computers in the first place: learning.

    If the machine doesn't come with apple's developer tools, and the kids don't have root access so they can install additional *unix* software to /usr/bin, you have already totally failed in giving them the computer. Yet, this is usually the sort of things school's do.

    What's the point of giving kids computers if they can't learn about them by tinkering with them?

    As far as the protections you are talking about, I have to agree with everyone else when I say they are insanely draconian and kind of pointless.

    No matter what you do, I can guarantee you within a month every kid is going to know how to get around them to look at porn on those things, and realistically that's the main thing parents would like to stop. I mean, do you really think that thousands of high school kids are going to be too dumb to figure out how to use a proxy? That not one guy is going to figure this out and tell everyone else? How dumb are your kids exactly?

    This is part of the reason why public schooling in the united states is so utterly worthless. It's not because american kids are magically just dumber than kids in other countries, and it's not for lack of funding. The culture of the "educators" is the problem. I'm 24 now and have graduated from both high school and college, but I still remember high school well, and it's the patronizing and incompetent teachers that made it so worthless of a learning experience.

    If you start off assuming that your kids are too dumb to learn anything, to want to play with technology, the be able to get around the trivial restrictions you are talking about, then how do you expect to ever teach them *anything*? You won't, and so far testing indicates you *haven't*.

  24. I'm in high school, so I would know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm not sure whether or not you read all of these posts, however, I am actually a 12th grader in high school.
    My school has a program called the "Satellite Center"
    Basically, it allows students across the parish (normally a county, but I live in Louisiana) at 2 high schools to join together to work on large scale business oriented projects.
    Anyway, what's related to you is that only 11th and 12th graders can participate unless under special circumstance. Also, the parish provides laptops.
    This involves an extreme IT dept run not only parishwide, but schoolwide.
    These laptops last pretty well, however, MANY are broken.
    YOUR PART
    These laptops, while at school MUST connect through a proxy. However, at home, you can use the laptop as it is YOURS.
    Which means, with all technicality, you could go home and install any file sharing program you want.
    You can't use it at school simply because the school's proxy blocks it.
    I think that if you want the students to reach their full potential, set guidelines.
    Such as: "No pornography is to be stored on the hard drive at any time, include cache and temporary data or bookmarks."

    This means, If you look at porn, and we see it stored on your hard drive at school, BAM, trouble.
    But as long as they aren't sharing their otherwise choice activities with other students, I don't know, seems like a pretty liberal and fair way of doing it.
    Goodluck.

  25. Re:None, because they will break restrictions anyw by Thiez · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't be ridiculous. When one person breaks the law, that person is wrong. When everybody breaks a law, the law is wrong.

    Having a rule that you know many, many people will break (and get away with?) is a good way to make those people lose respect for any other (more important?) rules you have.

  26. My kids' school has a laptop program by CFD339 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My oldest had a school laptop for two years, and my middle daughter is on her second year with hers.

    The middle schools provides them with low end macbooks. If you pay a $50 fee for the year to cover "insurance" the kids can bring them home, otherwise they stay at school. These have the same kinds of potential restrictions you mention.

    They can be put onto home wireless networks, and can print to home machines. The kids do not have the ability to add software, and are prohibited by their signed agreement from doing all the things you'd expect middle school kids to try doing. Mostly, they don't -- or they do it carefully enough not to get caught. That is a valuable skill set itself, and the kids become comfortable with the machines.

    More important -- the kids work with these machines in a fairly realistic way. They use Garage Band as part of their music class. They use keynote to do oral reports, and they use the word processor to prepare their reports -- and are expected to produce quality work with them.

    The point is, the machines are well integrated into the teaching plan. If not, they're a distraction.

    When my oldest moved on to high school, I wanted to get her a laptop of her own. She'd had a PC in her room for years, and had the school laptop from middle school before that -- A mac. I asked her what she liked better, a Mac or a PC. She just looked at me, and asked why she should care. To her, they're just tools. They both work, and she just didn't care much. Since I could get a pretty good PC laptop for about 300 dollars cheaper than a cheap Mac laptop, I offered to split the difference with her from her savings if she wanted the Mac. She thought that was a stupid waste of money.

    My point is there, is that by 15 she's comfortable enough with the technology to be unimpressed by it, and to see it as just another tool. As to p0rn surfing? At school its reasonably blocked (I can get by, she can't) and at home she's on my network. She knows I have firewall logs, and reserve the right to forensically review her machine. I don't though. I really really really don't want to know her taste in p0rn -- and even my 9 year old knows better than to give out personal information on-line.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  27. my advice by Eil · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These are more general points than some of the comments posted so far. Take them for whatever they're worth.

    1) Go for the least restrictive options possible. If you treat kids like criminals, they're going to act like criminals. Public middle/high schools are enough like jails as it is already.

    2) Some kids are going to figure out how to work around almost every restrictive measure you put in place, regardless of what you do. Expect that and when it happens, set the example and deal with it in a mature non-kneejerk way.

    3) Related to #2, the kids are going to use the laptops for non-academic purposes. This should be encouraged because to do otherwise is running contradictory to the whole message of telling them to have this laptop and take it home. If you don't want them to use a general-purpose computer for general-purpose activities (communication, music, art, programming) then don't give them a computer.

    4) Realize that 99.9% of the "problems" related to the use of the laptops are best resolved with non-technical solutions. If instant messaging in classes is an issue, have the teacher tell them to knock it off and pay attention to class. Don't just take away the chat program and leave it at that, because the underlying problem still remains. Cure the ailments, not the symptoms.

    5) Above all, EDUCATE them on what's considered acceptable use of the computer and what's not. For the love of all that is holy, do not just give them the computer and then punish them for using it wrong. Kids have a natural tendency to explore their world and the things in it, don't help the school system destroy that inclination any further.

  28. I know it's redundant to say.... but... by borgheron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They should have NONE, NONE WHATSOEVER.

    It is the parent's job to regulate what children do and don't do... it's as simple as that.

    Period... enough said.. no justification beyond that should be needed. YOU are responsible for YOUR children's actions. P.E.R.I.O.D.

    GC

    --
    Gregory Casamento
    ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  29. bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Easily the BEST answer so far. There is NO advantage to having a laptop in school. Practically everyone has a PC of some sort at home and the curriculum at your school and any other high school is too easy and of a simplistic nature to even begin needing a laptop.

    Hell, I didn't really NEED a laptop for my COMPUTER ENGINEERING degree until I started taking senior-level design classes. You think some little kids who would rather be at home on myspace or watching tv would need one more than a 28-year old adult working on a computer-specific professional degree?

    Sounds like a HUGE waste of taxpayer money. I'd invest in newer computers for an in-school classroom, more and better teachers, and a better class selection/curriculum before wasting it on some overpriced, incompatible MacBooks

  30. Re:None, because they will break restrictions anyw by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This isn't true. For example, the majority of the population has driven while (very) tired. This is a crime, (impaired driving), for a very good reason - it increases the risk of accidents, almost as much as drinking. So, here's a law, that the majority of the population breaks, but isn't "wrong" as it punishes dangerous behavior.

    I disagree. That law is wrong for many reasons, including the vague definition of "very tired" that means no one can be reasonably expected to tell if they are or aren't breaking said law. More importantly, however, is that just because a law increases the safety of the citizenry does not mean it is a good law. Cars are dangerous and if we keep driving them people will keep getting accidents even if they follow the laws. Is a law banning driving cars then justified? Freedom is the lack of laws. We need to balance the rights of individuals to act with the likely consequences of those actions on others. It is up to each of us to decide when we're too tired to drive and the law cannot make that decision for us no matter how hard it tries because it does not have the faculties to assess said state of being, regardless of if it punishes "dangerous" behavior. All driving is dangerous, but that doesn't make a law banning it just or driving "wrong".

  31. As a parent, I have to say by SecurityGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    None. And I don't say that lightly.

    The risk is that kids will get into places we'd rather them not. Honestly, there's a lot of total trash on the 'net that adults would probably be better off seeing.

    The risk, though, is that we train kids to be subservient to authority, which is bad for them and bad for a free society. As we've seen so much recently, many, many people and groups are quick to claim authority illegitimately. I'd really rather have kids grow up believing it's NOT ok for big brother to monitor what they're doing 24x7.

  32. Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Isn't giving them an Apple product restrictive enough in itself already?

  33. Zero lockdown, massive monitoring. by goodmanj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First, a general premise: kids of this age deserve respect, but are not yet given all the privileges of society granted to adults, because they have not yet learned enough to use those privileges responsibly. This especially applies to privacy. If you disagree with me on that, you might as well stop reading now.

    --

    Anyway, my solution: let's just use the same principles we used for schoolchildren *before* everyone had computers. No more, no less.

    Dial the clock back to 1985. Did we search every student's book bag for pornographic magazines as they entered the school? No, but if a teacher caught 'em with it, they'd be frogmarched to the principle's office. Besides, kids are really creative about hiding contraband, you're not going to stop them if they're determined to bring a Playboy to school. But if a teacher heard giggling in the boys' room, he'd investigate. In 1985, did we hand out pieces of paper on a strict quota system to prevent them from passing notess in class? No, but the teacher would stop note-passing when she spotted it.

    In an Internet world, this translates into not locking the laptops down at all -- let them access any sites they wish -- but monitor their Internet usage at school aggressively and proactively. And tell them exactly what you're doing.

    Teachers should have a packet sniffer app running on their own machines that shows the destination and type of Net traffic occurring in their classroom in realtime. Distracting activities like online games, IM chat, e-mail, etc. should be red-flagged for the teacher to deal with as she sees fit. On a broader level, the principal's computer should have a packet-sniffing app that permits her to monitor for issues of significant disciplinary concern -- not simply iChatting in class, but say, reading up on bomb and drugmaking information.

    Of course, all this network monitoring only works on the school grounds, but that's the limit of the school's jurisdiction. What the kids do in their homes is up to their *parents* to monitor -- and hopefully, the school gives the parents a similar application to use at home.

    The laptops could also have software to search for and report highly suspicious stored files which make their way onto the computers without passing through the school's network. It's easy to do with Spotlight. You'd have to verify the integrity of the searching application to make sure it hasn't been tampered with, of course. This is more draconian than network sniffing, though, so I'd call it optional.

    The nice thing about a monitoring but not disabling policy is that it allows you to handle edge cases well. Twelve-year-old girl reading the Wikipedia page on preteen lesbianism (assuming there is one)? The school can choose to ignore it, or maybe give some guidance. Eighteen-year-old boy reading the same website? Possibly a different action.

    With aggressive monitoring, just like in 1985, teachers can choose to take action on what they see or not... the important thing is to give them the tools to observe what's happening in their classrooms.

  34. This whole argument is ridiculous by RMH101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone's decided to hand out Macbooks to everyone. Presumably to get the funding to do this, they had to make out a business case for it, stating the cost, and giving an idea of the benefits. Was this reviewed by monkeys?
    Jesus, if you have to hand out kit like this, what's wrong with a cheap netbook?

    The obvious answer is you ensure that a client computer can't hurt the network. Filtering etc is done at the proxy, not the client. People can do what the hell they like with the laptop at home so long as a) they know if they bring it to school with pr0n on it they're hosed, and b) if they break it by installing stuff and tinkering that there's a cost or a time penalty in getting it fixed - i.e. you go to the back of the IT support queue.

  35. And let me add by gelfling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That spending money on MacBooks is insane unless you're getting them for less than half of retail price. A reasonably good device can be had for $400-$500 retail as opposed to a MacBook.

  36. Grades 6-12???? by SCHecklerX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are you f'in kidding me? I majored in a technical field and didn't even have my own computer throughout college.

    the only thing a student in HS needs a computer for is writing papers and lab reports. There are labs for that. And those who want to learn computer stuff will certainly do so on their own, just like we all did.

  37. What are you trying to do? by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Important information that precedes any answer to the question you ask has either been left out, or not decided, and the description given is self-contradictory on some of the important parts that aren't omitted. For instance, you say students will "essentially own the machines" and then talk about their ability to purchase them after graduation, and state mandates for filtering on school machines. Neither of the latter two points are consistent with the former: student ownership means students don't need to buy them, and mandates that apply to school-owned machines don't apply to them.

    Most importantly, you need a coherent idea of why you are spending the money to buy computers to give (or lend, as it seems from your description) computers to students. Once you know that, the uses and restrictions that are consistent with that will be much easier to determine, because you will actually have something to evaluate them against.

    (Personally, I think once you know why students need computers, it might be better to decide on a common hardware/software platform that meets that need, communicate that it was required, and subsidize purchase and reasonable repair/replacement -- with a means test -- rather than the school buying computers for the whole student population and retaining ownership and responsibility for monitoring/controlling their use at all times, particularly if there are significant state mandates that apply to school-owned computers.)

    ---
    We're a school district in the beginning phases of a laptop program which has the eventual goal of putting a Macbook in the hands of every student from 6th to 12th grade. The students will essentially own the computers, are expected to take them home every night, and will be able to purchase the laptops for a nominal fee upon graduation. Here's the dilemma -- how much freedom do you give to students? The state mandates web filtering on all machines. However, there is some flexibility on exactly what should be filtered. Are things like Facebook and Myspace a legitimate use of a school computer? What about games, forums, or blogs, all of which could be educational, distracting or obscene? We also have the ability to monitor any machine remotely, lock the machine down at certain hours, prevent the installation of any software by the user, and prevent the use of iChat. How far do we take this? While on one hand we need to avoid legal problems and irresponsible behavior, there's a danger of going so far to minimize liability that we make the tool nearly useless. Equally concerning is the message sent to the students. Will a perceived lack of trust cripple the effectiveness of the program?

  38. Budget Crunch = Laptop? by SleezyG · · Score: 2, Insightful

    US public schools are facing gigantic budget shortages (even the wealthy ones here in SF Bay area) for the next two years due to reduced tax income and your school wants to buy each student a pricey laptop? Save the money for something else; your students probably have computers at home. If they don't, why not start a home PC subsidy for less advantaged students who qualify? That way all students may have access to a computer but the school doesn't have to deal with the associated IT burden. Think of it as subsidized school lunch for the next generation.

  39. built to suit both purposes by cyberbian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Having worked extensively with a private school in this situation exactly, we chose to have roaming profiles, which allowed the student to log in to each machine locally, but their work was synched to their class server next login on campus. While logged in on campus, all internet content is filtered, we use jabber and bonjour messaging locally and the kids love it, these services are not given wan access.

    When the student is logged in off-campus they can make documents, and use the internet as their local administrator (parent/guardian) deems appropriate. In those environments, it is considered the responsibility of the parents/guardians to provide content filtering and/or monitoring of their child's internet use. As the students are just plain users, they have few rights with respect to system modification on their local accounts, any software that they wish to install is handled via a parental request form. Machine software images are netbootable so it's quite trivial to refresh each machine.

    It's important to remember that if the student and their parents ostensibly 'own' the machines, they should be granted any leeway they request, yet not undermine the local regime. Well implemented network services can ensure that your local rulesets are followed.

    --
    if I claimed I was emperor just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
  40. Secure the school network, not the laptops. by BitterOak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any content filtering should be on the network level, at the school. If the students are required to take the laptops home, then it should be up to the parents to provide whatever content filtering they like on their home network. It isn't the school's job to police what websites students visit while at home.

    I'm also curious. Are students going to be required to take school laptops home with them, even if they have their own computer at home? I think this is a disastrous idea. First, laptops are heavy, and many students are already developing back trouble from lugging heavy textbooks home with them every day. Also there is a safety issue. Laptops are valuable, and there is a good chance they will be stolen while a student is on his way to or from school. Is the student or parent financially responsible for the loss? What if the student is injured or killed while being mugged for his/her laptop? This is already a big problem with iPods in some cities. Are you prepared for those inevitable lawsuits? Remember, not all students take a school bus. Many walk or ride a bike to school. If I were a parent at your school, I would simply not allow my son or daughter to take a laptop with them on their walk to school. Would this get them into trouble at your school?

    --
    If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?