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Man Invents Alternative To Cooking Gas

An anonymous reader writes "Gazan resident Abed Ar-Rahman has revealed what he is claiming as an alternative to cooking gas that he developed since Israel has prevented deliveries of cooking gas to Gaza. He invented a device using chemical substances available in Gaza, which burn when mixed and brought into contact with oxygen. The first component is a metal filter that controls the interaction between 40% of the oxygen in the surrounding air, the inflammable substance and some other substances."

64 of 553 comments (clear)

  1. Alternate heat sources by pwizard2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What about Calcium Oxide (CaO), which yields quite a bit of heat when exposed to water?

    All you have to do to get CaO is burn limestone, which people have been doing since antiquity.

    --
    "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    1. Re:Alternate heat sources by pwizard2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And we could use more CaO to burn more rock and then we could cook anything for free! ...

      I know you're trolling, but it doesn't work like that.

      Limestone is a very common mineral, so CaO is relatively easy to acquire. The limestone must be prepped in a kiln. Limestone turns into CaO and CO2 at about 800 degrees F, which is not too difficult since that isn't very hot. The Calcium oxide must then be stored in an airtight container until it is used or it will deteriorate over time. I've seen active CaO ignite wood all by itself, so at least 451 degrees F is being generated by the reaction. If people placed CaO into an enclosed space to contain the heat generated by the reaction (even a little temporary oven made out of brick or rock would probably work) they could cook with it.

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
  2. i smell bull... by iocat · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From TFA:

    The first component is a metal filter that controls the interaction between 40% of the oxygen in the surrounding air, the inflammable substance and some other substances. He refused to reveal the exact substances used, fearing that they will not be allowed into the Gaza Strip.
    The second part of his invention is an electronic board that regulates the percentage of air and oxygen entering into the appliance, and the third component is an air pump using electrical power.
    The metal cannister could be refilled with the inflammable substance for no more than 40 NIS, which would make the home cooking device functional for up to 40 days, according to Farajallah.

    This would be neat if true -- a garbage disposal sized obvject providing 40 days of cooking gas for 40 NIS, but just reading alerts every single "perpetual motion" bullshit detector in my head -- the 40% figure, the secret ingredients, etc.

    --

    Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    1. Re:i smell bull... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      His circumstances are tougher than usual for the genre; but this guy absolutely screams "quack". Secret ingredients, somewhat dubious technobabble(though that could be a translation artifact), flirtation with thermodynamic implausibility...

    2. Re:i smell bull... by peacefinder · · Score: 2, Informative

      It might be as simple as an acetylene generator and optimized burners, where the transported "fuel" is actually calcium carbide and the cooker would mix it with local water to generate the actual cooking gas. I imagine it would be very difficult to make that work in practice, but some similar clever chemistry could allow an apparently benign (and unblockaded) material to be used for fuel.

      A 40-day supply does sound like a bit much, though.

      --
      With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
    3. Re:i smell bull... by westlake · · Score: 4, Insightful
      This would be neat if true --

      I want to know how much oxygen is being consumed here, what toxins are being pumped out.

      Carbon Monoxide comes first to mind.

      I want to know what makes this unknown chemical mixture safe to use and store in the home.

      I want to know about clearances, surface temperatures. I want to know how easily you can tip this thing over. The risk of accidental burns and fires.

    4. Re:i smell bull... by lysergic.acid · · Score: 2, Informative

      what does perpetual motion have to do with it? here in Southern California the monthly gas bill is around $12-30 per month (closer to $30 in the winter when the heater is on) for a 2-bedroom apartment. and according Google 40 NIS is $10.44932 USD. so it's really not all that revolutionary in terms of cost.

      i'm not say that this technology can't be vaporware, but i don't see any "perpetual motion"-type pseudoscience indicated by the article. though, i do think if that he wants to help people he should make the ingredients public. if no one knows how to recreate this technology, then how is anyone supposed to use it or benefit from it?

    5. Re:i smell bull... by RealGrouchy · · Score: 5, Funny

      This would be neat if true -- a garbage disposal sized obvject providing 40 days of cooking gas

      Another Hanukkah miracle!

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    6. Re:i smell bull... by Zerth · · Score: 4, Funny

      At least, this was the explaination I was given for why 40 appears everywhere in the Bible. Given that the person who told me reads it in the original, I tend to trust him when it comes to linguistic nuances.

      .

      Is it so special to be able to read shakespearean english?

      I mean, the King James isn't as easy as some of those new teenager bibles, but you can muddle through the -iths and thous with some trouble.

      < /troll >

    7. Re:i smell bull... by Flavio · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the prevelence of 40 as a figure is what turns you off, note that semetic languages commonly use the number 40 as a non-literal figure meaning "many" and somewhere around that order of magnitude. However, translations commonly take this literally. Hence, the prevelence of "40 days" for Noah's ark, "40 years" in the desert, etc.

      Sufficiently accurate for a religious text, but not at all appropriate for a technical description.

  3. Available in Gaza by Bryansix · · Score: 5, Funny

    You know what they have a lot of in Gaza which will burn nice and hot? Solid state rocket fuel.

    1. Re:Available in Gaza by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you seriously think rocket fuel is readily available for everyone on Gaza? That everyone on Gaza fires rockets at Israelis?

      When 84% of Palestinians polled support the cold-blooded murder of unarmed Jewish students, you'll have to excuse me if I don't get much comfort from the fact that not all of them are launching rockets.

      As for the rest of your comment, you should certainly be modded "flamebait", which means I probably should be taking the time to respond to you.

      Then again, you should probably be modded "funny", since I always get a kick out of morons who run around yelling:

      "LOLz U wahtc FOX NOOZ, STFU STOOPID N00B!!!11!".

      It seems to be a good rule of thumb that the more loudly someone proclaims their disdain for FOX, the more likely they are to be a complete imbecile.

    2. Re:Available in Gaza by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The current legitimately elected government of the Palestinian people have certain clues to their motives in their charter:

      "Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." (article 32)

      "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" (article 7)

      The palestinians have made their motives towards the jews, all jews, absolutely clear ever since they got the hell out of dodge so that the muslim nations nearby (read: just about everything else over there) could push the jews into the sea.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    3. Re:Available in Gaza by Duhavid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Them". Say "some of 'them'", and you are on to something. Or do you maintain that each and every resident of Gaza all hate Israelis with all their breath? This article puts the lie to that notion, this one guy made a stove instead of a rocket.

      And Israel has a blockade where aluminum and cooking gas ( from the article ) are not allowed in or in low supply. This punishes the "live and let live" types far more than the violent militant ones, *and* gives backing to any "the Israelis hate you, see what they are doing to you?" kind of rhetoric. ( Yes, that blockade is in reaction to violence from Arabs against Israelis, but A: this will lead to hatred, not a limitation to violence and B: the violence is in reaction ( as they see it ) to the occupation of their lands ).

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    4. Re:Available in Gaza by Duhavid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      All the reading I have done indicated to me that Hamas was elected mainly on the strength that they were not Fatah. The citizenry were tired of the corruption of Fatah, and had one real alternative open to them.

      That is not a mandate of the Hamas platform.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    5. Re:Available in Gaza by Mashiki · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're actually implying something I didn't say. However I was overly broad, in many cases however you'll find that 'metal shop' and 'rocket factory' are the same thing. Which is why there's a ban on aluminum(they key part in their rockets).

      The fundamental problem is the non-violent ones voted in and decided that this is what they wanted. They are reaping what they've sown and with that, it'll end up being them who decide what to do about it. I really wonder what countries in the middle east would do if Israelis started showing up in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc., and started demanding back the land, money and all that which was stolen from them.

      Just a finer point of irony, they probably shouldn't have tried assassinating the ex-el-presidente for life in Jordan; it might have gotten them further.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    6. Re:Available in Gaza by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Polls are all about timing and "location location location". I could use selective polling to find that 84% of Americans polled believe we should nuke France.

      It seems the better rule of thumb is that the more loudly someone proclaims their disdain for a group of people, the more likely they are to be complete imbeciles.

    7. Re:Available in Gaza by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And? Why do you think they feel justified in shooting rockets at Israeli citizens? Because they are an especially bloodthirsty group of people?

      There is absolutely never a reason to shoot missiles, or even fling buggers at completely innocent civilians. The fact that they shoot missiles, for any reason, shows that they are "an especially bloodthirsty group of people."

      And the US had absolutely no reason to bomb innocent civilians in Germany in WWII?

      The Palestians are essentially being imprisoned in a concentration camp and treated like subhumans by the Israelis, which from the Palestians' POV makes them no better than the Nazis. They are desperate - TFA gives a glimpse into their plight, being denied even basic needs like cooking oil! - and no humans should be treated they way the Israelis are treating them. Unbelievable.

      You really need to step aside and imagine how you'd feel if you were in their shoes.

      BTW is it OK for the Israelis to kill innocent Palestian citizens? Or is that somehow "different"?

    8. Re:Available in Gaza by brizzadizza · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hmmm... I wonder what you have been indoctrinated into believing and by what forces? Your dichotomy is as much an invention of your "western" indoctrination as the palestinian response to isrealis is their indoctrination. The palestinians are currently being oppressed by, in their eyes, an occupying nation that has consistently been censured by the world community. The hilarity is the internal media of Israel presents a more varied view of Palestinian/Israeli interaction than most of the media outlets of the west.

    9. Re:Available in Gaza by brizzadizza · · Score: 2, Informative

      How reasonable of the Israelis, I hope they get to any number of other potentially dangerous building materials, here is a short list:
      Bricks/Masonry (its what they build military bunkers out of, doncha know)
      Leather (military boots)
      steel (any number of weapons)
      batteries (how elsse will they power their IEDs?)
      water/food (gotta stop them from feeding those damn terrorists.)

      The fundamental problem is Israel is an agressive nation with expansionist tendencies that has been continuously oppressing the palestinians for 50 years now. What non-violence should they be maintaining? The student entifada was non-violent all the way through the seventies, unless you count rock throwing by unarmed palestinian teens against armed israeli soldiers. Why should the palestinians get over the most recent uncontested land grab? Why should they acknowledge a biblical claim to land that has been consistently habitated for 4000 years? Why does a new york jew have greater claim to any land in israel than a palestinian family that can trace its ancestry back to that very home (now bulldozed) for 1500 years?

    10. Re:Available in Gaza by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When 84% of Palestinians polled [nytimes.com] support the cold-blooded murder of unarmed Jewish students,

      While I don't defend this opinion or behavior, I wonder what a comparable survey of Israelis would reveal.

      From my vantage point, there seems to be a lot of hotheadedness and vitriol all around the region. I don't think there are a lot of clean hands to be found.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    11. Re:Available in Gaza by chrb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The poll you cite was carried out after attacks by Israel that killed 130 people in Gaza. That's 0.00025% of the Gaza population. In contrast, the 9/11 attacks killed 0.0001% of New York citizens.

      So, imagine that the 9/11 attacks had killed 2.5 times more people, and then imagine polling New Yorkers immediately after the attacks on their feelings towards the group of people who carried out the attacks. Do you think you would get a different result?

      It seems to be a good rule of thumb that the more loudly someone proclaims their disdain for FOX, the more likely they are to be a complete imbecile.

      Because Fox is known for its accurate and unbiased reporting? This is the same Fox that ran serious reports with "experts" claiming that Barack Obama is a secret Muslim.

    12. Re:Available in Gaza by chrb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where in the world is Osama bin Laden features an interview with one of the Hamas leaders - he is very clear in saying that they don't resist the Jews - they resist the state of Israel. When asked for clarification, he says that this is not a religious war between the Jews and the Muslims, this is a nationalist war between the people of Israel and the people of Palestine.

      So, whilst clearly there are some people within Hamas who agree with that particular quote from the Charter, there are also people, even within the upper management, who strongly disagree with it.

    13. Re:Available in Gaza by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 2, Informative

      "...instead of just running your mouth."

      Other than star trek reruns, mythbusters, and whatever's on the food channel I don't even watch TV.

      Most of my family is in israel, some of my family is what could be called "palestinian" except that they just took an israeli citizenship and consider themselves israeli citizens and lived with the same people they had for centuries, and my mother is a naturalized israeli citizen.

      My opinions come from LIVING there, getting bombed at the west wall, and having to get pulled out of a market by the IDF because a lot of people became very unfriendly very quickly.

      I keep up on the situation by hearing directly from friends and family how many HUNDRED rockets and mortars have been coming across the border. But yeah, you keep thinking that I'm just another dumb american that needs to learn the truth about Israel and how evil the jews are.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
  4. This is inconceivable by Liquidrage · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can't imagine cooking without gas.
    Heating food without gas? I just can't fathom this.

  5. Re:Flamebait Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Flamebait for sure.

    The entire coastline of Gaza is barricaded by Israel, and has been so for a very long time. Not only that, but anything coming into or going out of Gaza, whether by land or sea, is controlled by Israel. (The only exception to this would be things smuggled back and forth via tunnels, etc., between Gaza and Egypt.

  6. Re:Oppression by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just make sure not to mention the daily rocket and mortar attacks that Hamas perpetrates on the Israelis on a daily basis, or else people might not take you seriously.

  7. Re:Flamebait Summary by Jack9 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just because you border the sea, doesn't mean FedEx delivers. Be serious.

    It's widely known Palestine is considered slightly more than a 4th world nation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza (just look for the words "import materials")

    While I suffer some shame at resorting to wikipedia, no other sources are given as much credit, on /., to being impartial and correct. Neither of which, wikipedia, deserves. If you could point out somewhere this is contradicted, I would be very interested.

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
  8. He could have used dung as well by bogaboga · · Score: 4, Informative

    While I congratulate him for his invention, he could have used dung from the millions of sheep and camels in the region to make biogas. As a matter of fact these folks are already doing it.

    I hear waste from humans works too. The trouble with it being the stench and the potential for Hepatitis A spread.

  9. obvious answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    He can always gas them.

    1. Re:obvious answer by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok it's in poor taste admittedly but speaking as a jew even I found that hilarious.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    2. Re:obvious answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "scot-free"

      Now don't go making fun of the Scottish too

    3. Re:obvious answer by wealthychef · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, and America stole California from Mexico. History will not aid us in this question. The only way out is through dialog between parties who are committed to peace and freedom for all. Until that dialog begins, I think the "terrorism"/"oppression" (killing of innocents on both "sides") will continue.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    4. Re:obvious answer by Gerzel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apologize for what?

      For not agreeing with you that your opinion is correct?

      There were in fact Palestinian people who lived on that land who were in fact moved by force away from that land unjustly. Now I am not saying that the formation of the new nation of Israel on the whole was unjust I am merely saying that parts of it were.

      The fact that a mention of the mere possibility that it might be gets a call for an apology highlights the presence of injustice and a lack of tolerance for other views.

      Israel as a nation has done much good in the world. It has also done much wrong. The same can be said about nearly any nation in the world today.

    5. Re:obvious answer by junglee_iitk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your comment modded up to +5 is the proof how even selfproclaimed logical geeks are just hypocrites specializing in maths.

      I hate this argument, and people who give this argument. I hate when people say to me that India was in medieval age before British came, made most of the rails and taught English, which is why they do have some jobs. I hate those who say Monks were ruling Tibet with iron fist before Chinese came and modernised it.

      And hey! Jews didn't move "back". They moved. There was study proving this through genetics, but I am too tired to find a link for it.

      Anyway... carry on the beacon of false morality.

  10. Re:Flamebait Summary by jd.schmidt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hmmm... I am 100% certain that deliveries by sea are restricted by Isreal also. Come to think if it, I am 100% certain Isreal security forces can even prevent fishermen from going out.

    I am sure that some shipments are allowed into Gaza, but I am also sure that the difficulty of doing so (both in and out, they have to sell stuff to buy stuff you know) is causing shortages.

  11. Re:Flamebait Summary by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Informative
    Israel regularly blockades Gaza ports, so the statement is true...

    (IsraelNN.com) The Israeli Navy Monday morning blocked a Libyan ship trying to challenge Israeli sovereignty over Gaza coastal waters by landing at Gaza with 3,000 tons of food and medicine. The Foreign Ministry confirmed that it stopped the ship around dawn and that no force was necessary. "The Navy warned the ship that it was approaching prohibited waters and it decided to turn back," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yossi Levi said.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/128625

    In late August, two boats arrived in Gaza despite Israeli threats to stop them. Israeli Foreign Ministry officials said at the time that there had been a last-minute decision to let the boats through to avoid a public relations debacle at sea, and not to play into the hands of people they described as provocateurs. This time, too, Israeli officials had stated that the boat would not be allowed to reach Gaza, and that the Free Gaza trips would not become routine. Yet the boat was allowed to proceed without hindrance once again. "It was decided at the highest levels to allow them to enter," said Yigal Palmor, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, without further explanation.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/29/mideast/mideast.php

    Dignity, a small boat carrying activists, was allowed to sail into Gaza on Tuesday, less than a week after the navy stopped a Libyan cargo ship from entering the Palestinian port and after police prevented a group of Israeli Arabs from embarking for the Strip from Jaffa. Palestinian fishermen welcome... Palestinian fishermen welcome a boat carrying members of a previous activist ship, upon its arrival at Gaza port earlier this month. The boat left Cyprus on Monday night, and was organized by the Free Gaza Movement, which has successfully sailed three ships into the Strip in recent months.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728125788

    If Israel doesn't want you moving goods into Gaza, you are going to find it very difficult to do so...

  12. Re:Wow, such bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

    Four Palestinians are killed for every dead Israeli. If this isn't systematic genocide and Gaza isn't a ghetto for Arabs then please enlighten me.

  13. WTF ISRAEL? by exhilaration · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...he faced many difficulties in obtaining specific metals such as aluminum that are not allowed into Gaza

    1. Re:WTF ISRAEL? by mi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I guess they're worried that they'll use that aluminum and convert a shanty town into a nuke refinery.

      Or a Quassam-rocket. One of those just killed two sisters aged 12 and 5.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:WTF ISRAEL? by willy_me · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe the aluminum is used for rocket fuel. Once upon a time the British learned first hand that Al burns...

    3. Re:WTF ISRAEL? by Kamineko · · Score: 2, Funny

      Once upon a time the British learned first hand that Al burns...

      Please, continue.
      What did Al Burns do?

    4. Re:WTF ISRAEL? by amirulbahr · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You don't know the least of it. What the Palestinian cause lacks is a good PR campaign. A peaceful resistance movement with good global PR would do them so much more good than firing random rockets.

      Of course, then they would have to compete with the pro-Zionism lobby groups for mindshare.

    5. Re:WTF ISRAEL? by gbulmash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or a Quassam-rocket. One of those just killed two sisters aged 12 and 5.

      And you might notice those girls were Palestinians. It's sort of sad, because when I saw that article, my first thought was "ha ha, you dumbass terrorists screwed up and killed your own." Then right after it I felt guilty because no child's death should be a source of laughter. I'm just so sick and damn tired of these asswipe terrorists. When they kill their own by accident, it's hard not to gloat.

    6. Re:WTF ISRAEL? by mi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And you might notice those girls were Palestinians.

      That's the point. Had I linked to any Israeli victim of terrorism, some dumbass would've come out from somewhere to debate, that it is all Israel's own fault, that they shouldn't have built the country in "somebody else's desert", or that they should've just died in the face of opposition, etc. This way, there is no such distraction.

      Or, at least, it is much harder to make — blaming the deaths of Palestinian girls from a Palestinian-fired rocket on Zionist Entity is, of course, possible — had it not been for the occupation, there would've been no need for rockets, so there — but stretches credulity beyond most people's BS-meters. I'm sure, this explanation is being offered inside Gaza and, maybe, West Bank, but it would not work elsewhere. Or so one hopes...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  14. How useful is this? by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 3, Funny
    Unless it's appreciably easier to get aluminum than it is to get cooking gas...

    He added that he spent 3,000 Jordanian dinars developing the device, and stressed that he faced many difficulties in obtaining specific metals such as aluminum that are not allowed into Gaza.

    Oh, wait...

  15. Sounds plausable... by Sooner+Boomer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sounds like it might be a form of the Fischer-Tropsch process, a catalyzed chemical reaction in which synthesis gas (syngas), a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen, is converted into liquid hydrocarbons of various forms. You don't have to end up with liquid products. The catalysts are the things that would be the hardest to get in the Gaza area. You need electricity to run the process, but only intermediatly, to build up the product. The Germans made a lot of progress on this during WWII when their access to petro-products was cut off, yet the demand for POL was still high. The feedstock could be almost any organic material that can be volatilized, not necessiarily syngas, but the catalysts needed and the temperatures/pressures are a booger to work out.

    --
    Chaos maximizes locally around me.
  16. Re:Yes it has by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    In other news, man invents leaflet-burning stove.

  17. air is 20.9% oxygen not 40% by cpinetree · · Score: 2, Interesting

    unless I am reading this wrong the air in gaza would be great for a nitrox dive to 99 feet for 50 minutes.

  18. Re:Oppression by ravenshrike · · Score: 2

    The egyptians, jordanians and syrians who assured the palestinians that they would kick israels ass, and then failed miserably to do so.

  19. Re:Oppression by PixetaledPikachu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Israel (and US) wanted to be serious, why don't start by respecting the result of the Palestinian election, and acknowledge that hamas won it. They have tried your way, but you turn your head away.

  20. A Brief Politically Incorrect But Truthful History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Which came first? Jerusalem's Grand Mufti in 1948 (al-Husayni) did. While he was in prison at the time for war crimes including his collusion with Hitler, he still had enough influence to have his followers start attacking Jewish settlements and begin the Arab Israeli War when partitioning took place in Palestine. He also was a main lobbyist and negotiator for organizing the Arab countries that declared war on the new state of Israel. He is the one responsible for ordering Palestinians to leave the area for refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank. That is even after the new Israelis recognized their rights to land and living in the area now known as Israel. The Palestinians living in the Israeli side of the partitions were guaranteed to keep all their lands and sources of income by the Israelis. The Arab leaders, including al-Husayni, started the fight and told the Palestinians to move aside while they kicked the Jews into the sea... which of course didn't happen. When they were unsuccessful, Jordan annexed the West Bank portion of the Palestinian homeland outlined in the partitioning treaty, and Egypt took the Gaza strip. And they refused to let the Palestinians stay anywhere outside the refugee camps for the longest time. In some places they were never allowed to live outside the refugee camps... never allowed to become citizens of the countries where the camps existed. Yes, Arab countries treated the Palestinians worse than the Israelis would have. The Israelis would not have done anything other than let the status quo of life as usual happen.

    And by the way, there was NO country called Palestine before annexation, and the Palestinians didn't lose anything. They were living in areas claimed by other countries and never had the status (for a couple thousand years) of citizens of a Palestinian state in all that time. Partitioning carved a space out for both sides. But no-one had to move. The choice was their own. And now they have the Gaza strip and the West Bank back. But they still want to fight for something they never had before, simply because the others there are Jews. They should grow up, get control of their emotions like a civilized people, and stop with the bullshit rocket attacks. Then there will be peace. The Israelis, like anyone being beaten by a person who can't contain their own hysteria, can only take getting hit so many times before replying in kind.

    So which came first? The Grand Mufti's thugs and prideful Arab countries were the cause of the Palestinian's grief.

  21. Re:Oppression by dvnelson72 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nazi-like? Are you ignorant or stupid?

    Nazi's used humans for experimentation. Nazis put people in rail cars so full that people suffocated. Nazis had people in camps where they starved them to the point that they looked like walking skeletons. Nazis cooked live humans to commit genocide. Nazis used chemicals to gas people to death. Nazis used human skin for lamp shades. Nazis used human hair for pillows.

    How in the nimble-f*ck do you come up with "Nazi-like tactics"?

    Seriously, you are offensive as a human being. Keeping people who want to blow themselves up out of your territory is not "nazi-like". Should we put out a welcome mat with pre-made bomb belts for AQ in the USA?

    Equating Nazis with Israel (or for that matter the morons who equate them with GWB) is ignorant at best. At worst, it is an equivocation based in hatred of Jews in general.

    And no, I'm not a Jew. I just find this type of statement disgusting.

  22. I Call Bullshit by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2, Informative

    Israelis stole, or at least one can make a logically sound and reasonable argument that Israelis and other western powers did indeed steal that land.

    Read this post: A Brief Politically Incorrect But Truthful History.

    You have no logical argument stating anyone stole any land from a Palestinian. Unless of course you want to point that accusation at Jordan or Egypt. You don't have any argument. Your statement is pure bullshit.

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    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    1. Re:I Call Bullshit by Gerzel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Other than the Palestinians were in fact living there and the way political events turned out where in fact removed by force.

      I didn't say it was a particularly Good argument or correct. I did say that their side did have some valid reasoning.

  23. Re:Oppression by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2, Informative

    What came first, the occupation or the resistance?

    Interesting phrasing, because it seeks to exploit commmon knowledge that the occupations come first, prima facia. However, that question is leading.

    The true question is did attacks upon Israel from the West Bank and Gaza precede or follow Israeli control? And the unequivocal answer is the attacks preceded Israeli control.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  24. Re:Flamebait Summary by chrb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You might have a point if the United States military controlled Mexican airspace, seaspace, all borders, and prohibited the import of metals and oil into Mexico. And in that hypothetical situation, some small number of Mexicans chose to fire rockets into Texas. Does that make collective punishment right? And to switch the players around - if Texas were under the military control of Mexico, and its ports blockaded, and some Americans fired rockets across the border, would it be still right for the Mexicans to punish all Texans?

    if the arabs don't stop this terrorism, it means that they have support of the population. they are all responsible.

    So, every single individual in a nation is responsible for the actions of all other individuals? The Germans said the same thing in WWII occupied France - if a resistance cell killed German soldiers, the soldiers would round up all of the people from the nearest village and execute some (or all) of them.

    Why was collective punishment wrong when carried out by Germans 60-odd years ago, but right when carried out by Israelis now?

    I'm surprised that on Slashdot of all places, with its Libertarian-leaning politics, I'm having to actually argue that treating half-a-million people as one homogenous group is a bad idea.

  25. Re:Flamebait Summary by chrb · · Score: 2, Informative

    Do you think that Americans would vote differently in the same situation? If an American city were controlled by a foreign military force, and during incursions foreign soldiers had killed hundreds of civilians over the years? That entire extended families had been wiped out by shell fire that was just "a mistake"? Do you really think the American public would vote for a moderate leadership under those conditions?

  26. Re:Wow, such bias by Aahzimandious · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From my limited view:

    If a Greenman attacked a Purpleman because he is a Purpleman. That's Racism, and other criminal acts. Yes?

    If a Greenman kills a Purpleman because he is a Purpleman but with no intent to destroy all Purplemen. That's Racism and Murder. Yes?

    If a Greenman kills, or plans to kills, many Purplemen because he is a Purpleman. That's Racism and mass murder, or the plotting there of. Yes?

    If a Greenman kills or plans to kill every/most Purplemen in a region or the world. That's Geneocide, or the plotting there of. Yes?

    So...

    If Greenmen attacked Purplemen because the Greenmen were angry because of the situation that the [Purplemen and Greenmen forefathers] put them in and cannot make peace with themselves, thier forefathers, and thier neighbors(Purplemen) then when/if the Purplemen retaliate against the Greenmen attack(s) and possibly 'innocent' Greenmen (hurt/killed) that were anywhere near the Greenmen that probably attacked the Purplemen is that Genocide? No. It means they are fighting and there was possibly 'innocent' Greenmen were hurt/killed.

    If in that situation for every four Greenman and there is one Purpleman that is killed in the [Greenman attack and the corrosponding Purpleman retaliation] isn't Peace, even a bitter one, better? Unless the Greenmen are planning to continue no matter the cost, and/or genocide of the Purplemen is really the intent.

    But lo!, then the Bluemen come along and say "That is not a fair fight!! The Greenmen used rocks, and sticks, but the Purplemen used swords and wore armor!" So what?

    Stop picking fights with the big kid in the schoolyard if he's happy to leave well enough alone, and eyes won't be blackened and noses won't be bloody. Sure, get lucky in the fight once in a while but "WHY?!", especially if the the little kid in the playground is trying to make the big kid get the little kid's kitten out of the tree that the little boy's grand-father scared into the tree in the first place, and then get the big kid to chop down the tree for the little boy so that his kitten can never get stuck in the tree again?

    The Greenmen don't have to forgive, they don't have to forget - do the best with the cards they are delt! Perhaps diverting the energies of War to the energies of Peace, Education, and infrastructure would give a better chance at change? Yes? Maybe?

    Perhaps the Greenmen know education and infrastructure is EXPENSIVE to make work. It's EXPENSIVE to make a good life starting from scratch; but it has to start some where. But sadly, it's cheaper to go to blame others, and make War with the Purplemen and hope that something magical would happen when it's all over that it'll be better for the Greenmen. In the end, nothing changes.

    *sigh*

    It really doesn't matter even because everyone has to switch colors for the next fight and start the process over...

    1. Greenmen fight Purplemen!
    2. Purplemen fight Greenmen!
    3. * magic happens!(or doesn't...) *
    4. Greymen profit!
    5. Goto 1

    ~Aahzimandious

    --------------------
    PS: Vote for me for "World Dictator and Evil Overlord!" I PROMISE it will be a much better and happier World! The firing squads will continue until everyone is Happy! Are you Happy? Yes/No?
    --------------------

  27. Re:A Brief Politically Incorrect But Truthful Hist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you care to read the Balfour declaration of 1917, stating that the British government "view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", you would realize that there was indeed a land called Palestine since 1917. Go back even further, the crusades, where do you think they were headed? Read an accurate history book for a change. And let me enlighten you one last time, Winston Churchill, before the Palestine Royal Commission, said the following: "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." In effect, Palestinians are the dogs in your manger, been there for 2000 years give or take. It is interesting to see how you chose to dispose of them.

  28. Re:Oppression by Bartab · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We do respect the result of their election. The result was the Gaza strip being run by terrorists, which we're not keen on giving money too. If the Gaza strip wasn't so reliant on handouts, they might not care about our lack of recognition. However, they are so reliant.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
  29. Re:A Brief Politically Incorrect But Truthful Hist by CAIMLAS · · Score: 4, Informative

    The irony is that most people who are classified as Palestinians have never been to Palestine and neither have their ancestors - ie they're genetically diverse and not at all a "people group".

    The "Palestine" people are mostly just Arabs from Egypt, SA, Jordan, and the other surrounding Arab countries who were slow to revert from nomadic lifestyles - basically, Arab gypsies. They were a nuisance to the Arab states, and Israel provided a seemingly convenient (in that they could use them against the Jews) place to get rid of them.

    The actual "Palestinians" are mostly integrated amongst Israelis; if it wasn't for the media's focus on the Palestinians as a group, they likely wouldn't even be identifiable as anything other than "naturalized secular Arab-Israeli" by this point.

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    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  30. Re:A Brief Politically Incorrect But Truthful Hist by Bobb9000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hold on now, just because there was an area called "Palestine" doesn't mean that it was a country, much less a sovereign one. For the Allies to use their military and political position to create a new country without the consent of those already living there is morally questionable, but so is any use of force, and one way or another, Israel exists now. Regardless of of how racist Churchill or anyone else was, regardless of how horrible the situation was on all sides (and it was pretty damn horrible), the people living in Israel now need to come to some sort of agreement, and for some elements of the "Palestinian" people to think that resorting to terrorism is a good idea is just idiocy. Would you support the Native Americans if they chose to do the same? I don't particularly like Israel (I oppose religiously-defined governments on principle, and their recent dealings with the palestinians have been horrendous), but all sides need to be seeing what they can do with a bad situation. People are always going to try to take the land and property of other people if they think they can make better use of it, but the answer isn't to turn things into a cycle of endless retribution, it's to try to work out some sort of equitable solution. The palestinians can gain from the existence of the modern infrastructure and government Israel has to offer, and if Israel can overcome its own paranoia and racism, maybe something good could come from it.

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    Bobb9000 - raised by the wolves,
    Oxford education as phrased by the wolves.
  31. Re:A Brief Politically Incorrect But Truthful Hist by ja · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Kingdom of Israel was a result of an invasion from Egypt by former slaves who at the time may or may not be considered Jews. At least Moses had his troubles convincing them not to worship golden calfs while he was away picking up the latest news from God ... The Philistines were there when they first arrived.

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    send + more == money? ...