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AT&T 3G Upgrades Degrade 2G Signal Strength
Timothy R. Butler writes "Much to the chagrin of owners of various 2G cell phones on AT&T Mobility's network, including the highly visible (and originally highly expensive) first-generation iPhone, we have discovered that AT&T has been quietly adjusting its network in ways that degrade 2G network performance as it has sought to build out its next-generation 3G network. Many of the phones affected, including BlackBerry devices, are still well within their two-year contract period."
This is going to piss off alot of hipsters....
... first-gen iPhone owners.
My blog
Its the way people do business now.
Sad and immoral, but true.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm sure these new features are well defined in the contract you sign with A&T.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
AT&T sucks. Honestly though, I cant say Im surprised. Its like the local cable company here degrading our analog signal when they started pushing digital service. Oh, and once again I'm glad I have sprint.
Just a few months ago, I upgraded to the AT&T version of the Palm Centro. I was a little disappointed to learn that the AT&T version of the Centro doesn't support 3g while the Sprint version does. If AT&T was going to upgrade to 3g at the expense of 2g, they should have made as many 3g offerings available as possible. I've noticed as well that my signal strength has seemed poorer in many areas of Missouri lately than it was when I first purchased my Centro, but I'd never associated it with anything AT&T had done.
Where I live, AT&T has both Edge (2.5G) and 3G deployed - I only have the first gen iPhone so I cannot speak to 3G quality here, but over the past couple of months I have seen an improvement in 2G coverage and quality. My house used to be on the edge (hah!) of an Edge dead zone - but now we get nearly full bars and no missed calls.
Where 3G and 2G are on entirely different frequencies, so carriers don't have to choose which one they'll support this week...
I've read about this in multiple places today and I'm really surprised this is such a big deal.
A network decision is being made at AT&T to best serve the current customer base. Old tech is being worked out of the network while the new tech is being worked in. Edge will still work, it just won't have the best band anymore. 3G is becoming the hot service to have and more and more users are coming while edge users are dropping off.
Edge users are equivalent to VHS users. The technology has moved on, you need to move on or deal with slightly degraded service.
This is the only logical path, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one.
"OFB was able to confirm this situation for itself using multiple devices in St. Louis, MO, and also obtained information on similar cases across the country."
translation:
"I walked around St. Louis with my three iPhones and there's a bar less than normal. I emailed some friends and they think they're seeing fewer bars too."
Seriously AT&T offered the guy to offset the contract cost on 3G iPhones. know how many 2G owners would jump at that offer? What a diva. Blame it on Apple for designing hardware that was obsolete before it was manufactured.
In NYC my 1st Gen iPhone has become unusable. It's so obvious I'm glad someone else is noticing.
- Pandora for the iPhone used to work, now it doesn't (Too slow).
- Loading map searches on google maps takes a minute plus.
The constants are my apt location and my desk location at work. I haven't changed a thing, but the network has definitely slowed down with the same "signal strength"/Bars.
Does this only affect at&t 2G phones? Even if-so, should this not fall under the jurisdiction of the FCC? Is a company allowed to create devices/systems that use the spectrum in such a way that they interfere with other devices created by the same company?
Clever contract wording or not, this just doesn't seem like it should be allowed.
Hey guys, marketing mismatch.
AT&T's "2G" network was the pre-GSM TDMA network. The iPhone works on the 3G GSM network.
What is happening here is degradation of the stronger 900Mhz spectrum of the 3G GSM network which has twice the distance but half the capacity, because north america's UMTS runs on the 900Mhz band, so they can't expand the UMTS without degrading this.
Need a new tag for this: actsurprised. Seriously.
Get with the times, 2G is going the same way as Pulse Dialing did for land lines.
I had my 2G (quad band) phone in Europe. I only ever got EDGE once, and that was in the complete sticks.
The rest of the time, I only got GPRS. This is because that's all that was offered, GPRS and 3G.
So far from being an idyllic solution, it seems in Europe the outcome is even more decided for you.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
First Post!
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I dont entirely know the details of AT&T 3G frequency spectrum use, however i know that T-mobile managed to gobble up a ton of new spectrum for their 3G network over a year ago. T-Mobile is deploying their 3G in an entirely different frequency band than what their 2G network operates in, thus both 2G and 3G should be able to continue to operate without affecting one another, untill it is no longer profitable to operate the 2G network.
It is sounding to me as if since AT&T probably lost bids on alot of the spectrum that t-mobile gobbled up, they are deploying their 3G network in the same frequency band as the 2G network, meaning as 3G capacity is ramped up, 2G capacity is going to drop.
This is nothing new. When AT&T and Cingular merged, They started "not repairing" the AT&T towers. When I called about the problem, I was told that when Cingular took over the towers, they were not given the passwords to maintain them (an obvious lie), but that if I wanted to sign a new 2 year contract, I could start receiving a signal again with a plan that had less minutes and cost more per month. After much arguing, they eventually just let me cancel my current plan with them and I moved to Verizon. (Yes, I know that they are evil too.)
I found it unbelievable that anyone would pay more, receive less, and sign a new contract with a company that just failed to live up to their old contract. Unfortunately, my pessimistic view of the general public was once again shown to be overly optimistic.
My service started out with Suncom back a few years ago. They sold to Cingular, and then Cingular sold to AT&T. Each time my bill went up, and each time my phone service got worse. After a multitude of dropped calls, poor/no reception, and more bars in more places where I wasn't, I paid money just to get away from them.
Now I'm with Verizon and enjoy very good voice coverage, with crippled second rate phones. Honestly, can I not just have it all? I just renewed my contract with Verizon because I value a stable network over the quality of the phone, but the iPhone/Blackberry Bold almost tempted me away from them. Why can't Verizon offer me one good new phone with decent specs, Wifi, not laden with all their crap software, and just let me go with it?
I'm not sure if any of you have actually tried to test AT&T's network coverage, but this http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/ is a very generous map for where you can get "good coverage" in the middle of the country. If you want a better idea of where you're get good coverage, zoom in one level from the furthest out. A lot of that partner coverage is subpar. Then look where their 3G coverage is. That's really where you're going to get a "great" signal. For two examples look at Wichita, or Omaha: the cities are fine, but as soon as you go outside of it, you're SOL. Same for most of the mountain-west. I just hate seeing AT&T maps with orange coverage everywhere when really, it's not. Such a crock.
When pessimism is revealed as realism, where does that leave optimism?
I know next to nothing about legalese, but shouldn't this spell out a perfect use-case to launch a class action lawsuit against ATT?
If Bill Gates had a dime for every time a Windows box crashed...oh, wait a minute - he already does.
Forced Premature Obsolescence
There, I fixed it for you.
It's funny, I noticed this a month or so ago in Shreveport Louisiana. I live in an area where Shreveport is the closest 3G network. At home we have horrible signal fluctuations, but when it works Edge is mostly fine. Before Shreveport went 3G I would get 5 bars and Edge was pretty good (for Edge anyway).
After the 3G switch, I still get 5 bars of service, but the Edge symbol almost never comes on, instead I get the weird little 'dot in a circle' that tells you you are one GPRS, and with a 1st gen iPhone that means no data whatsoever. Calls are great though.
Occasionally the E will appear for a short time, and when it does it is like the Edge network that was there before 3G came. But it only lasts seconds, or sometimes maybe minutes, then goes away again.
At least with this setup I know out of the gate I'm not going to get service when the edge icon is completely missing.
The first time I noticed this I was with some people who had 3G iPhones. With the 3G disabled their phones were doing the exact same thing, so I know it isn't my phone being weird.
This is one of the few times I feel lucky to be nowhere near 3G service, as it would make my fully functional phone not work properly, and I'd be 'incentivized' to upgrade. Now I can keep my working phone, and slightly less expensive data plan for the time being.
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Got my Centro three months ago and have not noticed any degradation of service during that time here in rural SC but AT&T reception has never been really great either.
I thought AT&T's network went down yesterday while I was out shopping only to realize that Food Lion, or someone in the store(?), was blocking cell phones for whatever strange reason.
In NYC my 1st Gen iPhone has become unusable.
to be badass for a week? There's a reason they call it the bleeding edge.
There are a lot of identical prices/features in the plans the major 4 providers offer, so much so that it seems like an odd coincidence if this is truly a competitive market between non-collusive entities.
For example, say I want to buy a laptop cell-phone modem, and buy a wireless data plan. There are four providers who will sell me that, so you'd think I might have a choice of packages, maybe some carriers offering higher data limits for a higher price, others structuring their service with multiple tiers, etc. Instead, every provider offers exactly one plan, and all four have identical terms and prices: $60/mo for 5GB of data.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It is just people with 3G phones using the 2G network when they can't connect on HSDPA to read their email.
Instead, every provider offers exactly one plan, and all four have identical terms and prices: $60/mo for 5GB of data.
What in the world are you talking about? I went to check your facts and the very first carrier that I checked had a $50/month data card plan with unlimited data.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
They did the same thing when they started offering DSL service. I was quite happy with their dial-up service, but noticed that they kept reducing the speed to the point to which it was almost unusable - even to just download text based email (early part of this decade).
I had no need or desire for broadband, but ended up getting it because of this. (I got it from my cable company, though - didn't want to reward them for their behavior.)
The hypocrisy! - slowing down a slow connection to sell a fast connection over the same equipment!
I know that is Verizon's price. I'm unsure about AT&T, but T-mobile's is a tad lower as is Sprint's. Sprint's is particularly interestingly low for shared plans relative to the rest. This of course makes sense, as at the moment Sprint is the most desperate as they have a lousy reputation and must take the most drastic action. I'm pretty sure that Verizon has the highest prices (excepting AT&T, who I've no looked up), and they also happened to have the largest market share.
In other words, things are shaping up pretty much as one would expect a competitive market to shape up, with the leaders enjoying the benefits of reputation. The fact that things are not more different as they are makes sense too. Competition should force competitor's to price equivalently. In the auto industry, a common 4-door sedan will run in the 15-20 thousand US dollar area, regardless of manufacturer. There are outliers, certainly, but the major auto makers tend to manage the same price points.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I stand corrected; T-Mobile's offer is reasonably good, and gives the others some competition.
AT&T, Sprint, and Verizon all do offer only the same $60/mo, 5-GB limit plan for data cards, though. Well, Verizon also offers a useless 50-MB limit one, for $40/mo.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Perhaps you yourself should have 'continued' to check YOUR facts. From t-Mobile's "View Data Plan Terms" section 2. Protective Measures:
"To provide a good experience for the majority of our customers and minimize capacity issues and degradation in network performance, we may take measures including temporarily reducing data throughput for a subset of customers who use a disproportionate amount of bandwidth; if your total usage exceeds 10GB (amount is subject to change; please periodically check T-Mobile.com for updates) during a billing cycle, we may reduce your data speed for the remainder of that billing cycle. We may also suspend, terminate, or restrict your data session, Plan, or service if you use your Data Plan in a manner that interferes with other customers' service, our ability to allocate network capacity among customers, or that otherwise may degrade service quality for other customers."
As with many other providers, "unlimited == limited". Advertising a specific bandwidth speed as unlimited and then cutting that speed to aproximately the same rate as an old 9600 baud modem, is effectively the same as 'limiting' your usage.
I think you missed my point - 10GB at $50 is still a different plan than 5GB at $60.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Sure.. it's different, and just about useless, they might as well say you can have an Exabyte for all it matters. Unless you're in one of the few areas TMo actually has 3g you'll be crawling along at EDGE speeds or even GPRS.. Good luck using up that 10GB at 50kbps. I'd take the 5GB/60$ for 5GB that I could actually use
So many injustices..so little time..
T-mobile tries harder than the others, but t-mobile is blessed with the worst network coverage. T-mobile survives by having the best customer service, and enlightened data plan policies.
The customer service folks are actually helpful, they will discuss how to configure unlocked iphones and other phones on t-mobile. They also unlock t-mobile purchased phones in 90 days, even sooner in most cases, etc.
AT&T has the absolutely worst customer service. All the other carriers ('cept for T-mobile) are pretty evil. I would not be surprised at any informal price fixing... everyone is locked in anyways. But network quality is very important also, and T-mobile doesn't do well there.
I only switched to T-mobile when they allowed their phones to do calls over the wifi network as well as the cell tower network. The coverage isn't great, but you can supplement it by placing wifi points where you use the cell phone the most... it actually is better for use in some rural areas. But my blood pressure is much lower whenever I deal with customer service, that's priceless!
I'm not here to debate the relative merits of the various carriers or their plans. I simply pointed out that one of the major carriers has a plan that is roughly half the cost of the others in price/data and $10 cheaper in absolute terms.
Beyond that, the 3 with 5GB/$60 plans vary wildly with overage fees. I dare say that you'd have a very unpleasant surprise if you went over with AT&T and their $0.50/MB overage.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
It's not just the voice speeds -- I have definitely noticed increasingly severe degradation of my 2G iPhone's internet browsing capacity over the last half year, in both northern NJ as well as Los Angeles, two perenially prime coverage zones.
I remember when I first got the 2G iPhone last year. Browsing was fast and functional and fun. Nowadays it can take a full minute to load a basic web page. It's horrible. Same thing with Google map loads and (god forbid) loading new iPhone apps.
This slowness does not seem to affect a 3G USB data modem for my laptop which I also have with them.
Perhaps it's time ATT got their heads handed to them on a platter in the form of a class action law suit. Upgrading your system is all well and good. But dishonest business practices that systematically rip of masses of consumers to get there are not acceptable; it's very interesting to see this article apparently validate a suspicion I've had for a good while now.
they did this when trying to phase out the old analog phones, they slowly degrade signal hoping people won't know it's intentional and upgrade their phones, and lock into new contracts to fix it. if everyone knew they were degrading service on purpose they'd be open to a huge lawsuit.
they are essentially breaching their contracts with everyone who uses 2G and hoping nobody notices and calls them on it.
Desperate companies do desperate things. Real companies match or beat the competition AND live up to it.
As an AT&T employee, I can personally guarantee you that we are number one.
AT&T's 3G service in NYC is abysmal at best. When it's on you cannot make voice calls without them dropping. The 3G signal also fades in and out from Edge and takes forever if ever to re register with each part of the network! Total crap!
Verizon and Sprint have better 3G networks than AT&T. AT&T's network is better than TMo's only because TMo was late to the party.
I wouldn't say the WORST network coverage. Not best, but not worst.
And, hear, hear, on the customer service. AT&T is like pulling teeth on EVERYTHING.
I've had worse and worse experience with *Ericsson as the Sony aspect has taken over. Get a good Samsung.
The WiFi calling is BEAUTIFUL. They give you a free wireless router for it, too. Now, there's a home version that works like a land line.
For me I choose AT&T over technology. I have no love for the company but GSM/UMTS is a worldwide technology, and for better or worse I am backing the standard. Verizon, and Sprint both deal in proprietary technology, which in my opinion is the real problem in the US. The FCC has allowed companies to use cell technology, nasty contracts, and DRM technologies (SIMLOCK) to provide customer lock-in. IMHO the FCC should dictate the technology, and it should be the same path most countries are on, GSM/UMTS/LTE. They should also disallow the contractual lock-in, and SIM locking.
The government picking a technology standard that enables US customers to have real choice is a good thing.
I miss T-Mobile a lot. The coverage around here sucks (I spent half my drive to work with no signal) but the pricing and customer service can't be beat. I was getting 1,000 minutes for $40/mo.
Now I'm on Verizon. Somehow they manage to occasionally beat T-Mobile on the customer service ratings. How that happens is beyond me. Verizon customer service is very hit or miss -- sometimes you'll get a great CSR and other times you'll get some pissed off miserable SOB that hates his job and takes it out on you. I've actually gotten to the point now that I'll just hang up and call them back if I think I might have one of the CSRs that falls into the latter category. It's just easier than arguing with them and trying to get the call escalated.
How I miss T-Mobile :(
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
no your wrong there. t-mobile wireless has no limits.
I visited a local T-Mobile store the other day to look at the Android. I was just about to jump from Sprint when the salesman told me the data cost for international roaming is $15 per megabyte. I checked the T-Mobile website and this is indeed true. It is such an incredibly high rate that Google Maps could ring up hundreds of dollars a day. That data charge is 3 orders of magnitude greater than Vodaphone's advertised data rate. I am currently using Sprint for my Blackberry 8830 World Edition. They lie about what they provide, they lie about services they unilaterally remove or unbundle, and they rarely respond to customer complaints. But they still sell unlimited international data roaming for about $70 per month. And they only charge for the time international roaming is enabled, so a two week trip doesn't incur the full cost if you remember to turn it off when you get back. I can understand a surcharge for roaming, but THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE is way over the top.
This is about USA. Around the rest of the world it differs. For example, here in Netherlands, Vodafone and KPN deliver a much better 3G network yet the iPhone is only sold bundled with T-Mobile.
Not really, your post's full of random "A^(TM)" characters. Anyone else see this?
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
They go witha contract, I move to Tracfone. lather Rinse Repeat.
The are just freeing up the 850MHz band from GSM/EDGE so they can upgrade it to UMTS at 850MHz. Relax, not only will you have to upgrade to the current 3G band now, you'll have to buy an entirely new phone to work on UMTS 850 when they launch that too!
I would think that there's a massive opportunity for a class action case for fraud here. Clearly Bait & Switch to provide one level of service to lock in an equipment purchase + 2 year contract, then to degrade the service so much as to require the purchase of an even more expensive new equipment + new contract ought to result in costing AT&T so much that NO COMPANY WILL EVER consider doing this again.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
If you use 2g for data transfer, your not going to be relying on it already, if you use it for voice, you wont be affected a whole lot. Theres no where theres 3g that there isnt 2g. If you disagree with that, give me a zip code and i'll check.
You are right, even if you actually manage to find some variation between the providers it is never significant and the billing model doesn't change at all.
Here are some different plans you can get in Finland:
TeleFinland, 250min, 100 sms, extra minutes 9 cents/min, 16 EUR/month
TeleFinland, 0min, 0 sms, extra minutes 7 cents/min, 66 cents/month
Add unlimited 3G data package, 384kbps, 10 EUR/month, 1mbit, 20 EUR/month, opening fee for both 8 EUR. Includes: Connection, USB modem and SIM-card.
On Sonera there are scales for choosing custom plan for both talk and sms, steps are very small and will offer significantly better variation than US counterparts. 15 EUR/month will provide 512kbps, 20 EUR/month 1mbit and 35 EUR/month gives 3.6mbit data connection. There is also difference in price if you get the phone or not with the plan, if you own your phone already there are not added fees. If you want iPhone with the plan add 24 EUR/month for 24 months or just pay 650 EUR up front.
DNA Finland provides data only USB stick for 20 EUR/month for 1 mbit connection.
Even these are very similar, 1 mbit is everywhere 20 EUR/month, but the flexibility of available packages is significantly higher. And remember that only sent SMS and outgoing phone calls cost, incoming ones are free.
I know quite a few people who have already changed to use these wireless internet connection because they are so much handier. Just take the USB stick or phone with you and the connection works everywhere. The lower speeds are also cheaper than fixed line connections.
Sorry to post more, but I searched further and found quite interesting model on Sonera.
They have four data plans, hour, data, day and month plans. Hour plan costs 90cents/starting hour without monthly fee, with 7 EUR gap per day. Data data plan costs 4 EUR/month and gives 20MB of data, each additional 20MB chunk will cost 4 EUR more. Day data plan costs 3 EUR/day without monthly fee and month data plan costs 15 EUR/month. Then the user can add data speeds to these plans, regular being 512kbit. 1mbit costs 5 EUR/month and 3.6mbit costs 20EUR/month in addition to the data plan chosen.
This provides quite affordable internet service for various different needs.
Same argument was made when they "turned off" analog. More users are switching to 3G devices...and the bandwith being used is making 2G a thing of the past. It's just business. If people don't like the fact they are being tuned out, then switch carriers.
And this is why I have T-Mobile. Band IV (1700MHz/2100MHz) for UMTS, 1900MHz for GSM. AT&T's UMTS coverage is horrible because they don't have enough spectrum for both GSM and UMTS. T-Mobile's UMTS coverage is available in less places, but where it is available, it's considerably more reliable.
Ironic to read this weeks after I've been trying to figure out why my Blackberry will only get GPRS data connections in my hometown, right by a tower. *IF* it gets EDGE, it gets 1 or 2 bars. I've even tried multiple phones. Same thing.
It's a short article from a noname news source with little to no statistical data to back it up.
I am an AT&T customer and they just did a major 3G rollout in my area (Binghamton, NY area extending all the way to Owego). My girlfriend just bought a 2G-only phone from them and has had no degradation in service (in fact she's ecstatic with the service quality compared to T-Mobile - T-Mo tells customers they can roam on AT&T where T-Mo doesn't have coverage but that capability breaks for weeks at a time, my girlfriend routinely had no service whatsoever for 90% of her commute, including anywhere near work.).
The only service degradation I have noticed is that unless forced to 2G-only, 3G-capable phones will prefer a 3G tower even if it's only one bar of signal and barely useable and the 2G tower provides full signal strength - My apartment and workplace are at the very border of the 3G area.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Those are apostrophes. Smidge's text entry isn't set to the standard setting, and Slashdot doesn't know how to interpret the character-representing numbers that Smidge has entered into their database.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Consumers, can't choose, they don't have nor do they want to be an expert in everything. Technically consumers should choose to ignore products that are harmful to themselves, or way various non-monetary options, but that isn't what the market is. The market always chooses price, and price is only a good way of determining the best price within a given environment. It doesn't help pick the best environment.
I don't buy into the corporatist religion. I choose to be led by smart people that specialize, and that requires active government, business, and people.