Biometric Passports Agreed To In EU

An anonymous reader writes "The European Parliament has signed up to a plan to introduce computerized biometric passports including people's fingerprints as well as their photographs, despite criticism from civil liberties groups and security experts who argue that the move is flawed on technical grounds. (Back in 2005 Sweden and Norway began deploying biometric passports.)"

Comments

In the words of the great optimist....

[spammeister]

What could possibly go wrong?

dumb sheep

[Swiper]

Oh great, Just because the US has them, we have to get them as well, despite the very vocal criticism there has been....what a bunch of blind and deaf sheep we have as eurocrats!

Re:dumb sheep

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, there are European Parliament elections this summer! This time make sure you go to vote the MEP that will truly represent you and your views. Democracy just don't happens. Oil just don't come out from the pump. Your e-mail just does not sit in the "cloud". People make things happen. Democracy functions as long as people vote. We've seen democracy failing too many times (e.g. 1933 in Deutschland). So get involved, is so simple!

Re:dumb sheep

[tsa]

You're so right. The EU has no backbone whatsoever. America is our friend, so we must do everything to please it. Disgusting. Someone said Merkel is bad, well, the NL PM Jan Peter Balkenende is much much worse. He couldn't wait to go to Iraq to please his buddy George. And now that that turned out to be maybe not such a good idea, he doesn't want a public investigation. Coward. We have the worst government we ever had. I wish I lived in Belgium since they don't have a government there.

Re:dumb sheep

[Anonymous Coward]

Democracy functions as long as people vote.

Total Nonsense.

Democracy is only the illusion of freedom. Given it takes around 30% and never more than 50% to get voted in candidates only need to convince the dumpiest 30% to 50% of voters.

It's tyranny of those who manipulate the stupid over everyone else.

Re:dumb sheep

[Xest]

"The EU is the largest assembly of corrupt and indadequate politicians you will ever find."

I disagree, this past couple of years they've done a better job of protecting civil liberties than British parliament has for it's own citizens, that's not saying much but I'd say from this that they're at least better than Britain's Labour government.

Re:dumb sheep

[nomad-9]

"Democracy functions as long as people vote. "

No, it does not. Not when your options are restricted to choosing between people with no *real* differences.

"Democracy" is an illusion, it has been reduced to choosing from a preset pool of incompetent bureaucrats, who pretend to be different from one another by over-blowing their slight nuances of policy.

Re:dumb sheep

[Znork]

There is some hope in me yet that there will be at least one MP who isn't like that

Well, for the parliament there are usually many options you can vote for that aren't in among the worst.

the constant interference of what basically are foreign powers in our national politics

A lot of the time it's basically our national politicians using a scapegoat. The commission and council are our own/largely loyal to our own politicians, and they love to shove things through in the EU and then say 'it's the EU!', even if they were the ones proposing it in the first place.

The problem isn't inherent in the involvement of other EU countries and politics, the problem is the lack of accountability and the way it gets used for denial of responsibility.

Re:dumb sheep

[VShael]

This time make sure you go to vote the MEP that will truly represent you and your views.

Wow! Is there an Oscar, or a Nobel Prize for naivety? If so, you have my vote.

The Commission of the EU is unelected. They were all found guilty of corruption a few years ago, and collectively stood down. Only to stand right back up again. Corruption pervades the EU Parliament. It was designed to make sure it could not hold the (even more) corrupt EU Commission to account.

And good luck finding ANY MEP that represents your view if you're a Euro-sceptic. They don't exist.

Even in a multi-party system, you will still get situations where every elected official speaks in unison, and the "Opposition" is an opposition in name only. It happens all the time, whether in the run up to the Iraq war in England (when the Conservatives couldn't wait to kiss Tony Blair's arse) or in the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland (where all the parties said to vote Yes, except for sinn fein, the terr^H^H^H^H ex-terrorist party.)

The only solution is to stand for office yourself, and again, the system is designed in such a way that that can't happen unless you're wealthy. (Not just rich, but wealthy.) And as Declan Ganley of the newly founded Libertas party is finding out, even then, the establishment does it's best to ridicule you, destroy you, and keep you out of their little game.

Re:dumb sheep

[brabo_sd]

Maybe we pay all those taxes for one of the best social security systems in the world? If you lose your job, the government gives you money.. not altogether that much, but at least just enough to survive. Rather not pay a lot of taxes? Think at the downside of that... no good medical assurances.. no serious unemployment money.. Put like this, I actually prefer to pay taxes, I like to share what I have with those less fortunate.

Re:dumb sheep

[Shakrai]

The EU may be expensive and inconvenient to some degree; the alternative is far more so.

What makes you think your only alternative is between another war and a giant stifling bureaucracy that pays lip service to individual freedoms and customs? A Federation is no guarantee of peace and the lack thereof is no guarantee of war. The lack of major wars since WW2 is probably owed more to nuclear weapons anyway -- they've made total war too destructive to contemplate.

Re:dumb sheep

[MoogMan]

A metagovernment/open source government is majoritarianism. Effectively, this means little or no rights for the minority.

Re:dumb sheep

[peragrin]

Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it. Is more true than just for school.

The constant warfare of previous centuries was many small stupid people trying to be bigger.

The solution is a giant bureacray that no wants to be a part of. That way stupidity and masochists will rule.

Re:dumb sheep

[Xest]

You mean like the right to murder?

That might as well be what you're suggesting with a complaint the the EU boycots groups who promote racism.

You see, the problem is, the parties you're suggesting should be treated with freedom and liberty are parties that aim to infringe on other people's freedoms and liberties.

Really, my heart bleeds that you're upset that the EU has done a lot of work to prevent another rise of Nazi sympathyisers, after all, we all know how well that went last time in Europe. In working against these groups they're still defending the rights and liberties of the majority even if it is at the expense of rather vile, racist, xenophobic minority- sure they have rights too, just not at the expense of everyone else I'm afraid. Quite how you and they can complain about a loss of liberties when their whole aim and goal is to deprive everyone else of their liberties I really don't know.

Re:dumb sheep

[N1AK]

Because that will really scare the tank, aircraft, warship, satellite and reaper drone operating military of your goverment. I have no issue with Americans being allowed to own guns, but are many of you really niave enough as to think gun ownership has any effect on goverment behaviour?

Re:dumb sheep

[DrXym]

And good luck finding ANY MEP that represents your view if you're a Euro-sceptic. They don't exist.

MEPs are voted by the general public. If the general public wanted a Euro-sceptic MP they would vote one in. As it happens, UKIP gained 12 seats in the European parliament and the Mouvement pour la France has seats too. I'm quite sure there are Euro-sceptic MEPs representing other countries too. In other words there is a significant representation of Euro sceptics and your statement is complete bollocks.

And since you mention Libertas... for the benefit of bystanders, Libertas is a private group pushing a No vote in the Irish referendum on the Lisbon Treay. To that end they stuck up thousands of posters with scary (and often absurd) reasons that people should vote No. What is not known about Libertas is how they got their funding, but there are strong suspicions that it was from US defence contractors and other interests. The group's founder Declan Ganley also just happens to be CEO of a US defence contract firm. So here we have an individual with strong US military & financial links interfering with a national referendum and an EU treaty. If you think MEPs are corrupt and that Libertas is the shining light of purity you really have no clue at all.

You have to laugh in hindsight that the No vote was primarily driven by this organisation and the Socialist Workers Party. That's some unholy alliance. Somebody even (possibly another rabid No fringe group) stuck stickers all over Dublin saying to vote No because babies would be microchipped otherwise. What isn't so funny is that such tactics actually worked.

Re:dumb sheep

[Zerth]

Its effectively like being chosen for jury service, where for one month, your vote (instead of career politicians votes), decides how to run the country.

.

Except instead of deciding what happens to someone else, you are deciding what happens to yourself. Most people would vote for their self interest and would have neither weight of public opinion nor the desire to be re-elected to counterbalance their extremes. That might end up worse than politicians, which is pretty hard to do.

None of us is as dumb as all of us.

What gives you the right

[BadAnalogyGuy]

To put up a fence to keep me out? Or to keep mother nature in?

Disabled people = 2nd class citizens

[gavanm]

People with no hands would obviously be exempt from the new fingerprint-based biometric passport system. Instead, they would have to apply for temporary, 12- month passports in order to travel, the MEPs agreed.

I can see this being popular with advocacy groups....

Especially when many non-EU countries are reluctant to welcome people with less than 6 months left on their passports. In effect many will have to apply for a temporary passport every 6 months.

Stupidity at its best. If the passport biometrics indicate they have no hands, the it should be very easy to verify this.

Either that or ask people for toe prints, or nose prints or stump prints.

Re:Disabled people = 2nd class citizens

[4D6963]

Either that or ask people for toe prints, or nose prints or stump prints.

Or better yet, face prints, also known by insiders as "photographs". Presents the advantage of being easily identifiable by anyone.

Are we all criminals?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought fingerprinting was reserved for people in jail?

Re:Are we all criminals?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes....haven't you figured it out? We're all guilty until they fail to find something to charge you with....

Political?

[youknowjack]

This is almost certainly a political move; with terrorism being a scarier topic than privacy

Nevertheless, the summary doesn't do justice to the article. The article suggests that experts agree the passports will be much harder to forge (impossible with current methods) - which is a big strength.

In fact, the main argument against using biotech passports (in the article) is that authorities will begin to rely on them 'too much', which doesn't ring true to me, since biotech is inherently MORE reliable than, say, an official trying to identify someone by a small passport photo.

I think the risk of misappropriation of bio-information is worth it, weighed up against the risk of terrorist or criminal activities which it seeks to mitigate.

Re:Political?

[pjt33]

which doesn't ring true to me, since biotech is inherently MORE reliable than, say, an official trying to identify someone by a small passport photo.

The point is that by removing the element of judgment in favour of something objective but possibly flawed you get a situation where people don't exercise judgment when the machine gets it wrong.

Re:Political?

[Anonymous Coward]

Harder to Forge.. The people who did that recent 'Job' in India did not have passports..

In Africa and other places, passports can be bought, if you have the money.

Many people come in .. without passports

Many people BORN - do not have passports

So there is zero advantage, unless the naz err police tap you on the shoulder and say passport or id card for work or whatever.

The risk of being biometrically identified after one blows him/herself up is also pretty useless, as the baddies know this already.

That rules out forgery as a need, and screams police state.

Problems

[tdwMighty]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._passport#Biometric_passport

According to privacy advocates, the BAC and the shielded cover are ineffective when a passport is open, and that a passport may have to be opened for inspection in a public place such as a hotel, a bank, or an Internet cafe. An open passport is subject to illicit reading of chip data, such as by a government agent who is tracking a passport holder's movements or by a criminal who is intending identity theft.

If this is true, then wont this just hurt the honest people and do nothing to stop "criminals"?

Re:Problems

[RAMMS EIN]

How much crime does a better passport stop, anyway?

Not agreed to, forced upon us!

[scsirob]

Most people in Europe are horrified by yet another intrusion into their privacy. This agreement is made by a group of people who do NOT speak for the majority of the population.

And all this for the sake of the untangeable "war on terrorism". What a sick display of arrogance.

Re:As our American friends say, "good luck with th

[drsmithy]

It's ridiculously expensive, impossible to enforce and hugely unpopular, so whats in it for them??

Hugely unpopular ? ID cards only seem to be 'hugely unpopular' amongst a vocal minority, everyone else tends to fall into either the 'they will help us catch bad people' or, at most, the 'I've done nothing wrong, so I've got nothing to hide' camps.

Re:As our American friends say, "good luck with th

[RAMMS EIN]

I think you overestimate the value E.U. citizens put on their privacy, and their resistance to governments collecting data about everyone. There is virtually none.

Dutch citizens have no voice

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a shame that even when there would be a referendum in Holland, government simply nullifies it because 'the people are not well-informed' or say it's only meant as a guideline.
We only had one referendum and there we voted against a European Constitution. After that they never gave us the chance to vote for the new one and simply adopted it.
Anyway, Whatever Dutch Parliament says, it's almost never representative of what the Dutch people think or want.

Re:As our American friends say, "good luck with th

[V for Vendetta]

For example, in Belgium (where love of red-tape is a universal fetish) it is required by law for everyone to carry their ID papers at all times. You can be stopped and asked for your papers by the police at any time, without cause. And this is considered perfectly normal. As if Germany had actually won the war. (Vos papieren! Schnell!) The Germans will love something like this.

We already have this in Germany, for as long as I live (40 years now).I wrote the same in a similar thread here on /. a couple of weeks ago, but I'll repeat it here for your convenience: I was on vacation in the USA last October. The number of times I had to show my ID card to private people in those 10 days far exceeded the number of times I was asked to show my ID card to a German police officer ever.

Although any police officer may ask you for your ID card whenever he likes, without any reason whatsorever, in my whole life this has never happened. Whereas each time I was paying a silly $10 T-shirt with my credit card on the aforementioned trip to the USA, I was asked to show my ID card. And not by some authority, but by a little clerk!

pedophilia != child molestation

[jonaskoelker]

[...]pedophiles are constantly crossing the borders to [...] molest our children

There's a distinction I think it's worthy to know, so I'm going to spell it out. Hopefully someone will benefit from this.

• Pedophile: someone sexually attracted to or aroused by kids

• Child Pornographer: someone producing porn that includes kids

• Child Molestation: sexual activity with kids. Maybe one should throw "non-consenting" in there, maybe not. That's a finer point than what I'll argue.

They're not the same. If you're a /Child [PM].*/, then typically you're also a pedophile, but not the other way around.

I'm not here to defend any group in particular. Just to make the distinction clear.

[I think children deserve to be protected by the legal system, but I also think that 17-year-olds should be allowed to film themselves having sex and show their pr0n to their friends. I'm for the rule of law, and against the rule of puritans. Ask me if you want to know all the nuances of my opinions.]