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Earth's Radio Telescopes Combining Forces

Slatterz writes "I own a basic 70mm telescope, which I'm sure Galileo would have given his right arm for in 1609. In fact, this year marks exactly 400 years since Galileo first pointed a telescope at the skies — discovering the moons of Jupiter and helping to prove that the universe doesn't revolve around us. As a mark of respect, the United Nations has declared 2009 the International Year of Astronomy. Official festivities kick off this week in Paris and, to help start the celebrations, 17 radio telescopes in Australia, Asia, Europe and the Americas will track three quasars using something called "real-time Very Long Baseline Interferometry" — basically creating hi-res images by combining their data to simulate a telescope as large as the Earth. Sounds cool."

35 of 119 comments (clear)

  1. And to kickstart the celebrations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    the United Nations has declared 2009 the International Year of Astronomy. Official festivities kick off this week in Paris and, to help start the celebrations ... a giant light display and a firework!

    1. Re:And to kickstart the celebrations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      2009: The year of the Astronomy Desktop...

      Ups, sorry! ;)

    2. Re:And to kickstart the celebrations by CRCulver · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While growing up, my father imparted something of a passion for astronomy, and I remember being thrilled by a glance through his homebrew Dobsonian reflector. However, light pollution really takes any wonder out of gazing up at the heavens with a naked eye. I've been to some fairly remote places on Earth, such as central Kazakhstan and Western Sahara, but even there local authorities have put up enough lighting to seriously dim the skies. I can't imagine how glorious things must have been a century ago.

      It's a pity few even realize what a problem light pollution is. If you want to really appreciate the stars, consider looking at something like Bob Mizon's Light Pollution: Responses and Remedies . But in the face of apathy from officials, there's no much hope for improvement.

    3. Re:And to kickstart the celebrations by mbone · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's a pity few even realize what a problem light pollution is.

      Indeed. Galileo made many of his observations from the city of Venice. Back then, you could still see the stars from a city center. Now, even the outer suburbs are pretty degraded.

      If you care about changing this (and a lot can be done), join the International Dark-Sky Association.

    4. Re:And to kickstart the celebrations by wormBait · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Depending on where the light pollution is, the effects vary.

      2. Some research suggests it messes with people's circadian rhythms (which can lead to insomnia and possible long-term health effects)
      3. It can prevent numerous plants from flowering (they think it is always summer)
      4. Sea turtles may migrate in the wrong direction when they hatch
      5. Predator-prey relations may be skewed
      6. Giant mutant spiders that eat all the insects attracted to the lights

    5. Re:And to kickstart the celebrations by Luminary+Crush · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...which, of course, would not affect my radio telescope at all. But could you please turn off your phone!

    6. Re:And to kickstart the celebrations by Normal+Dan · · Score: 2, Funny

      So what other downsides are there?

      I can't cause mischief as easily.

      --
      A unique way to learn a language: http://languageloom.com
  2. Wiki help by Andr+T. · · Score: 4, Informative
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_astronomy#Very_Long_Baseline_Interferometry

    Since the 1970s telescopes from all over the world (and even in Earth orbit) have been combined to perform Very Long Baseline Interferometry. Data received at each antenna is paired with timing information, usually from a local atomic clock, and then stored for later analysis on magnetic tape or hard disk. At that later time, the data is correlated with data from other antennas similarly recorded, to produce the resulting image. Using this method it is possible to synthesise an antenna that is effectively the size of the Earth. The large distances between the telescopes enable very high angular resolutions to be achieved, much greater in fact than in any other field of astronomy. At the highest frequencies, synthesised beams less than 1 milliarcsecond are possible.

    --

    Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.

  3. This is called eVLBI by mbone · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is called eVLBI, and it is now done routinely to, e.g., determine the Earth's rotation (UT1).

    From a networking standpoint, one interesting thing is that eVLBI requires high bandwidth (1 Gbps is typical), but can tolerate fairly high loss rates (because the actual cross correlation coefficients are rarely as high as 10^-3). This makes it an excellent candidate for an Internet scavenger service, where packets are sent at "less than best effort," i.e., with the understanding that they can be dropped if there is any congestion at all, so that eVLBI can use all available bandwidth without choking out other uses. The same technology may prove to be very useful for P2P services.

    1. Re:This is called eVLBI by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The same technology may prove to be very useful for P2P services [ietf.org].

      Indeed. One of the biggest problems with P2P in general is all the congestion it creates by opening so many simultaneous connections. P2P could be much more useful for these kinds of background transfers that are obviously best for scenarios like eLVBI.

      With a 'less than best effort' strategy, you'll end up only using the 'extra' or 'leftover' bandwidth and not your whole pipe.

      The story the other day about a P2P firewall (which has other more glaringly obvious problems than just being P2P) could make use of this technology as well.

  4. A telescope as large as the Earth by dimethylxanthine · · Score: 2, Funny

    And hopefully they don't screw up the metric/imperial/coordinate whatever units are used across the world and its back and point in the right direction. You wouldn't want to upset Galileo on this date...

    1. Re:A telescope as large as the Earth by Cowmonaut · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What strikes me as funny as if there was/is a God he must have a fantastically disgusting mean streak. Technically it was the Church under the Pope that like burned Gallelio right? The same Church who God supposedly told he would honor the decisions they make down here. So if the Pope condemned Gallelio to hell for telling the truth then he would be there being flayed constantly.

      Of course there are other ways you can take that, but since we're talking 100% hypothetical BS I figured I'd be lazy and take the wordings at face value. Alternate beliefs and theories include bits like that "promise" being bullshit by the Church so they can keep power, or God telling lies to people down here and doing whatever He wants up there, etc etc.

      Slightly less off topic though I've always wondered what past great scientists would do with modern technology. I blame Star Trek for putting the idea in my head, what with Data and his holodeck friends of Einstein, Freud, Edison and so forth. I wonder if in some cases if these "greats" are only great because they had primitive tools and were more adept at using those and would be considered mediocre if they had modern gear and knew how to use it.

      After all, using an IR or Radio telescope is different than using an optical one.

    2. Re:A telescope as large as the Earth by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You wouldn't want to upset Galileo on this date...

      When I was in Florence I actually got to go see his grave. It's located in the Basilica of Santa Croce. Michelangelo's grave is also located there. They are on opposite ends of the church within sight of each other.

      Rumor has it that during one of the many floods that hit Florence the remains of each came up to the surface and they had to guess at who was who when they reburied them. I don't know if this actually true or just something they tell the tourists but I paid my respects to both graves.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:A telescope as large as the Earth by Darby · · Score: 2, Funny

      After all, using an IR or Radio telescope is different than using an optical one.

      Most of the differences are in how they're built though, and using them is pretty much the same, right?

      I mean once they're built, you just point the big end around the sky. With the optical ones you look through the little end, with the radio ones, you put your ear on the little end, and with the IR ones, you put..I dunno, something you want to warm up.... a TV dinner or something on the little end. Astrology isn't so hard.

  5. If you want ot get in the hobby. by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Dont get a crappy scope. it will simply discourage you.

    go to orion at http://www.telescope.com/control/main/ and buy a 8" dobsonian.

    you will see things that the guys that have the cheap crap cant.

    you will also have a crapload more light gathering than any small lens telescope can hope to have, giving you better star views and even seeing color very well.

    http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=dobsonians/~pcategory=telescopes/~product_id=08943 is a PERECT beginners telescope. it works fantastic and does not have the crapload of problems and poor viewing that anythign smaller would have.

    Also if it can be bought from walmart or radio shack or even elder beerman, it's crap. do not buy it.

    I have one of those and the 12" big brother to it. the 8" I loan out all the time to people interested in astronomy and they freak out when they look at saturn and see the rings seperated from the planet unlike a lesser scope can do.

    the only drawback is a 8" scope can BLIND YOU if you observe the moon without filters.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dont get a crappy scope.

      you will see things that the guys that have the cheap crap cant.

      you will also have a crapload more light gathering

      it works fantastic and does not have the crapload of problems and poor viewing that anythign smaller would have.

      Also if it can be bought from walmart or radio shack or even elder beerman, it's crap.

      You seem to have a "crap" fetish. 2 girls 1 reflector?

    2. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 3, Informative

      the only drawback is a 8" scope can BLIND YOU if you observe the moon without filters.

      It didn't blind me when I looked at the moon through the Amherst College 18" refractor but it sure didn't feel good. I had a flashing disk of light in my field of view for about 5 minutes after. I wish the instructor had been a little more aware of the danger.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    3. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by fprintf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The price of these telescopes is simply amazing. For a little less than $400 (I assume you have to add shipping and other stuff) you can get http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=classicdobs/~pcategory=classicdobs/~product_id=08943 that 8" dobsonian you mentioned. I only went there because of your link and the NOVA/PBS show I watched on home-built astronomy. Basically you can buy a really decent telescope for about the same price as you can build your own, so if just getting started (like I am thinking about) it is easier to buy based on recommendations of active local astronomers.

      Thanks for the link. $400 is still a bit out of reach, but we'll see what tax rebate season brings.

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
    4. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...a[n] 8" scope can BLIND YOU if you observe the moon without filters.

      I have to tell a story on myself. I borrowed a 4" telescope from my college, and set out to look at various celestial wonders. Everything was fine until after looking at the moon (and having tried both eyes), I was blind! (Or so I thought). I stumbled into the house, but strangely, I could see. I went back outside, and I couldn't see anything. I finally figured out that the moon's image was bright enough to stimulate my cones and at the same time zap my rods. When I looked away outside, there wasn't enough light for the cones, so I saw nothing. Inside, there was enough light for the cones. I really scared the crap outta myself that time! Scenes from "A Christmas Story" of "You'll burn your eye out, kid" danced through my head.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    5. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by notthepainter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thanks for the link. $400 is still a bit out of reach, but we'll see what tax rebate season brings.

      Buy some decent binoculars or just use the ones you have around the house. You'll start enjoying them now as opposed to waiting until save up the $400. I started with a telescope even though many people recommend binoculars for beginners. I think I use my binoculars now just because it is so easy. Shoot, I've even gone outside between innings of watching the Red Sox on TV! (And yes, I'm aware of dark adaptation.)

      You can read about my observing with binoculars at http://notthepainter.com/category/binoculars/ . My goal is to see all of the Messier objects with them.

    6. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I have one of those and the 12" big brother to it. the 8" I loan out all the time to people interested in astronomy and they freak out when they look at saturn and see the rings seperated from the planet unlike a lesser scope can do.

      I get a very good view of Saturn with my old 5" Newtonian. Can't make out the Cassini division, but the rings as separate from the planet are perfectly clear.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    7. Re:If you want ot get in the hobby. by mbone · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dont get a crappy scope. it will simply discourage you.

      Yes, it is hard to do VLBI with a telescope that is less than 5 meters in diameter. Also, you will need a good clock. VLBI has been done with Cesium or Rubidium standards, but I would strongly recommend that you pick up one of the excellent Russian masers. They will easily fit in your garage.

  6. More info for IYA2009 by MeisterVT · · Score: 3, Informative

    For more information, the website for all of the events in the International Year of Astronomy is here. It really is amazing what you can see when you get away from light pollution.

    --
    Government - If you think the problems we create are bad, you should see our solutions!
    1. Re:More info for IYA2009 by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here are some events to look at this year:

      http://www.seasky.org/astronomy/astronomy_calendar_2009.html

      Most can be seen with a simple pair of binoculars. Probably better off with those than with the $100 wal-mart telescope.

      And back in the day, there used to be a daily email service with things to look at every night. Unfortunately, I can't find it now...

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    2. Re:More info for IYA2009 by landimal_adurotune · · Score: 2, Informative

      The IYA project 365 Days of Astronomy Podcast has been excellent so far as well - for when you are stuck commuting in a light-polluted city this year. http://365daysofastronomy.org/

  7. Stop calling the man by his first name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Have some respect and call him Galilei. Do people say "Albert's theory of relativity"?

    1. Re:Stop calling the man by his first name by buchner.johannes · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Interesting.
      They say:

      From: pinkfreud-ga on 30 Mar 2005 10:31 PST

      It's quite common for historical figures to be mentioned by their
      first names. Rembrandt, Napoleon, Dante, and Leonardo come to mind.

      ...

      From: waukon-ga on 26 May 2005 14:30 PDT

      There is a cutoff date (and I forget exactly when, but basically at
      the start of the baroque period) where one starts calling European
      historical figures by their last names. Michaelangelo Buonorotti is
      referred to by his first name, but Michaelangelo Caravaggio is
      referred to by his last.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  8. My contribution to the by notthepainter · · Score: 3, Informative

    My contribution to the IYA2009 is two fold.

    First, I'll be speaking at least twice this year on astronomy to the public. Once at my local library, next week actually on the Winter Constellation, and then again this summer at the local Audubon Society on Binocular Astronomy. Places like these are hungry for smart people like us to talk to the public about our passion.

    The second is that I've vowed to get out and do more public observing. This is where you setup your telescope in a busy place, like in a square downtown, and exhort the public to "Come see the Moon!" You can read about one of my adventures last year at http://notthepainter.com/2008/07/come-see-the-moon/ . You can even do outreach to your friends, I've auctioned off star parties at a charity auction, and I brought my telescope to Thanksgiving dinner!

    The point is, this is the year that you, the astronomer, should try and make a difference. (Oh, and for those who think you need to be super experienced to do it, you don't, I've been doing this almost 2 years now, hmm, maybe 3, I've been having so much fun I forget.)

  9. If nothing else... by east+coast · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's a good exercise in a co-ordination of this level.

    --
    Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  10. At sea? by Civil_Disobedient · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well if you have money take your telescope and get out to sea somewhere.

    Yeah, and you can bring a grandfather clock to keep time. And if you're bored, you can bring along a Jenga set. Everyone loves boat Jenga.

  11. principles of syntheic aperture by peter303 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Radio sensors record the full waveform so you can cross-correlate the raw signal to create a large synthetic aperture. Almost all optical telescopes just record intensity without phase, so you cannot synthesize large aperture. A few telescope sites send optical over wave guides for analog correlation. This works for optical telescopes within a few hundred meters of each other.

  12. Re:not higher magnification ? by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 3, Informative

    Really, it all comes down to what's known as Fourier optics. In the far field from a distant source, the mutual coherence (cross-correlation) of the light is the 2-D Fourier transform of the original image, through the van Cittert-Zernike theorem. If you're at all familiar with FTs, the components further from the origin correspond to the highest frequencies. So a larger telescope (essentially an analog IFT in this way of thinking, simulating propogating the wave pattern back to the source) is able to cross-correlate the light between the two furthest points on the aperture, allowing you to take into account higher frequency ranges, and get higher resolution.(1)

    Therefore, there are two reasons for increasing a telescopes size:
    1. You collect more photons, improving signal quality
    2. You increase the resolution as you're able to gather more components of the Fourier band. This is limited on Earth due to the seeing effects of the atmosphere, unless you start dealing with adaptive optics.

    This kind of work, using multiple apertures to synthesize a much larger one, gets you the second result without much help on the first, but at a much cheaper price. By manually taking the cross-correlations(2), you can get a map of the Fourier field of the image and computationally compute the original image from it.

    (1) This is also why blockages over parts of the aperture don't have an obvious effect.
    (2) which is why this only works with radio, optical frequencies are much too high to record the actual waveform, so physical beam transmission is necessary over carefully controlled (to 10 nanometers) path lengths.

  13. Not exactly a planet-sized radio telescope by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While the resolution of a large array can be similar to one gigantic dish, this does not mean it is as sensitive. No matter how spread the array, it is (at best) only as sensitive as the sum of its individual elements. What is nice though is that as some sites rotate out of the array, others can be brought online, which allows for continuous monitoring of a single patch of space. Even a giant array in the desert like the VLA is not capable of performing this feat since it is still just one point as far as the planet is concerned.

    Mal-2

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  14. Re:not higher magnification ? by mbone · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, this aperture synthesis is done to increase resolution, not sensitivity. In fact, all known radio sources have a finite size for VLBI (because of the inverse compton effect), and so source brightness starts to decline as baselines go towards two Earth radii. While VLBI has been done from space, if we placed a VLBI antenna on (say) Mars, there would almost certainly be no source visible on Earth-Mars baselines for any obtainable antenna size.

  15. Sure, Galileo gets all the attention and credit! by FrenchSilk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But Englishman Thomas Harriot made the first drawing of the moon after looking through a telescope several months before Galileo, in July 1609. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090114-first-moon-map.html