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Bickering Blocks US Mobile Phone Payments
theodp writes "Imagine a technology that lets you pay for products just by waving your cellphone over a reader. You wouldn't have to if you lived in Japan, where people have been using it for the last five years to pay for everything from train tickets to groceries to candy in vending machines. While nearly everyone who's tried it has liked this form of payment, consumers in the United States won't be able to wave-and-pay anytime soon: The companies that must work together to give the technology to the masses can't agree on how to split the resulting revenue."
I've used the Oyster cards mentioned and they are pretty neat. They can store up to £90 of credit, which can be used to pay as you go, plus your Travelcard or Bus & Tram Pass. You can use them on any bus, Tube, trams, DLR, London Overground and some National Rail services in London.
This game will waste your life. Don't clicky!
I wish that mobile- and micropayments would gain bigger focus in the intustry. There are first pilots going on here in Europe.
OTOH: some countries (South Asia, mostly) already have problems with malware on their phone "stealing" money by sending text messages...
Could be worse. Could be raining.
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But I can't see how waving my cellphone over a reader is an improvement over waving my credit card. The credit card is thinner, lighter and more waterproof than a cellphone.
When I go out, I always carry a wallet. It has my driver's license, credit card and cash in it. My cell phone may or may not be with me, depending on what I'm doing. Maybe it's in the car, or my backpack. If I were going to wave anything over a reader, it would most likely be my wallet.
Perhaps it's because I'm over 50, but when I hear people talking about combining media player, cell phone, digital camera, [whatever] into one single unit, all I see is one item that does everything "not quite as well" as the original separate items. The cellphone/camera is only 3 megapixel...OK for some uses; but not as good as my Canon point-and-shoot. My phone can hold a few gigabytes of music, nothing like the 80 G in my iPod. If the performance of the composite were equal or better, you might have me as a customer, but for now, I'll pick and choose.
Hell, I'd be happy to just get cell phone COVERAGE in a lot of the US.
Sheldon
We've had this in Europe for a while now, especially on vending machines and other such silly stuff, but almost nobody uses it. Not exactly certain why people don't use it, but it's just never quite caught on.
I think it's because we're all too conscious of our phone bills and don't want things like coke and such messing them up and making us think we've blabbed our mouth off too much. Or maybe it's because only certain cell phone carriers were in on the deal, thus leaving half of us without the option.
...We have a similar system. You pay to wave...
My bank card never runs out of battery, which is quite nice.
Also, I get it for free from the bank.
I can't wait to be able to steal money just by walking through a crowded room and "charging" each person's phone $5.
One of the big things that is hard to settle is the credit risk. A phone operator bills the customer and there is a non zero risk that the customer won't be able to pay his bill. This is one of the issues with paying with your phone.
Everyone likes it? I doubt it. It may be convenient, but convenience always comes with a price. With credit cards, it's theft of your card number, merchant fees, and risks to your credit history. What are the risks with cell phone payments?
I've used cold hard cash, and that's neatest.
It's light, portable, needs no batteries and isn't subject to arbitrary restrictions or revocations. No devices or readers are needed. You don't need a "credit rating" to use it. And I can pay for pretty much anything, except those services which require me to spend extra cash on an alternative transaction medium.
Cash. Is. King.
May the Maths Be with you!
And I'm not quite sure how you do your payments with credit card, but I haven't ever used it by just waving it. I always have to use it by swiping it through something to read the magnetic strip, a technique which is well overdue for replacing as it is prone to misreadings and wear and tear.
Moreover, I think paying by mobile phone does not require the person payed to to actually check you balance, it's a kind of load the thing with credits payment. So it speeds up transactions.
I think the advantages over credit cards and magnetic strip cards in general are numerous.
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"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
>> candy in vending machines
Sure, some of the rubber has fruity flavour but calling them candy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edy
Children have mobile phones before having credit cards.
Phones linked to their parents' accounts.
Giving children the ability to spend money on a whim is quite profitable.
And I bet patents are blocking other companies from working together on it.
Possibly, but I reckon it is more a case of the attitude of the relevant players.
In some cultures, companies still approach their business from a "provide a quality service for a reasonable price and the customers will come" philosophy. Are you old enough to remember companies like that in western countries?
Unfortunately in our capitalism at all costs way, too many companies approach their business from a "how much can we milk em for, how do we lock em in" philosophy.
So when there is some new you beaut tech just waiting for everyone, we get a situation aptly described in TFA as
"it is completely possible nothing will happen in mobile payments in the next five years if everybody keeps thinking only about their own piece of the puzzle."
Read as "piece of the pie"...
... I've got MS and wound up paying for like 30 tickets one day because I stood there shaking.
The resultant discussion at customer service brought out my turrets.
r--Micke
I just can't see an American company getting this right w/o 'accidentally' overcharging me or just screwing it up completely. I don't need another billing problem to call Sprint about.
Although I'm a staunch believer in free markets, for basic infrastructure like payment systems perhaps a guiding role by the government wouldn't be a bad idea, just like they have a role with regular old currency.
This sig is just as redundant as the rest of this posting
I'm not a fan of the "Pay Wave" features on credit cards even. I don't especially like the idea of my information being transmitted from my wallet anyone in my immediate vicinity with a reader. Especially when the payoff to me is zero. I think "Pay wave" is a useless feature. Is it THAT hard to swipe a card instead of "wave" it in front of a reader? Then at least I don't have to worry about other people on a bus/subway/crowd who are close enough to steal my info without ever touching my wallet.
Given my distaste for this feature on credit cards, I sure as hell don't want it on my cell phone.
The real story here is the failure of businesses to work together to deliver a feature to consumers (many of whom would no doubt enjoy this feature).
And yet I've yet to see one in use in Japan. Granted I only stay a month there every year, but cash is king in Japan and Asia in general. I rarely see credit cards being used (although it has become a bit more common over the past 15 years).
Now, when the salesman gets finished telling me about their latest phone which can do everything short of transforming into a giant robot (feature available in the next model) and asking what I'd like to do with it, I'll look like even more of a Cellphone Luddite by saying "make calls." I don't text, rarely take cell phone photos, and don't check the Internet from my phone. I upload my own ringtones ( http://www.myxer.com/make/ ) and don't care about applications or games on my phone. All I do is make phone calls.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
I've used cold hard cash
It has some drawbacks as well:
Strokes for fokes, horse for coarses... I think.
I once got a parking ticket in the downtown core of my city... a ticket in which I disagreed with (only $7, but still, it's the principal).
So, I went to the bank and got $7 worth of rolled pennies, opened the rolls into a bag and proceeded to City Hall to pay my fine (being the smart-ass that I am).
To my surprise they refused the payment and it turns out there was an active by-law prohibiting the same thing that I was doing.
I guess sometime (about 30+ years ago) a man was upset for a $200 fine that he received from the City. He went to the bank and withdrew $200 in nickels and dimes, loaded them into a large bucket, went to City Hall and dumped it all over the floor. He then asked them to count it and get a receipt.
Here I thought I was crazy...
I say don't drink and drive, you might spill your drink. Before you get behind the wheel just stop and think.
"I always have to use it by swiping it through something to read the magnetic strip"
I know, damnit! Why can't people stop this kind of thing. It's like an English workhouse from the 1800's the way we have to go around swiping cards. It's against the Geneva convention!
Thank god I'll soon be able to wave my phone. About time!
Seriously, people are really disconnected from their money when they are disappointed they can't just bump their phone but have to manually swipe a card. Everyone is in such a rush to let the government control their money (and that's going well) & have convenience that they don't realize it's having less and less worth. Just a bunch of credits in a computer which soon you won't be able to get by without. As for me, cash is always the way to go. If it 'holds up the tube', it's the system's designers fault, not the cash paying customer. "Hi sorry, all I have is real money". I'll give you three chickens for that iPod.
Hell, just get the damned thing implanted in your hand. Why introduce an intermediate step when you can just skip right to the inevitable solution. Eventually human embryos will be engineered to grow a number of "diagnostic" and "communication" devices inside of them.
It would be cool feature, if there were readers for it. As is, I can barely use my card with RFID at 2 local establishments. And at one it does not work properly all the time. Everyone else still has old credit card readers, and they have no incentive to throw away what works.
Absolutely. That, and the fraud risk. Who is responsible when my cell phone is stolen, cloned, etc. and somebody runs up a huge bill using it to pay for things? If my credit card is stolen, US law limits my responsibility to $50. If there are fraudulent charges, I can contest them with my credit card company and they and the retailer bear the liability to validate the charge. I'm sure that the cellular companies aren't too keen to take on these risks themselves, so they'll either try to find a partner (the credit card companies or banks) or they'll try to pass the liability all the way to the end user.
One thing that will completely prevent me from being interested in this form of payment is the level of risk I am assuming when I use it. Ask me why I don't use a debit card? Because there's a higher risk to my cash flow if somebody drains my checking account than if somebody hits my credit card limit.
----- Connection reset by beer
I think I'm getting old because this article SUCKS! Just like Broadband in the US, these stupid god damn american companies cant figure out how to split revenues. C'mon...Japan gets 100MB connection for 14.95 and we'll never see that here due to corporate GREED!!!! Just like these dumb ass phones that would probably work relly well...we'll never see it because these stupid dumbass american corporate heads are so faggity and greedy that you couldnt even give each one of them a quarter anyway because they would all be standing around wondering:
1) Why it's just a quarter
2) Should the persons building you are standing in be the person who gets 2 quarters becasue they own the building you are all standing in
3) Can you possibly give away 2 quarters?
4) The guy who poured the cement for the ground you are stadning on to make this whole transaction happen probably deserves a few quarters too
5) Starbucks
6) ?
7) Profit
Why do people want to do EVERYTHING with their cell phone? Not trolling, I just don't understand the desire to have a cell phone do everything except wipe your butt for you. I sort of understand the Japanese, since their culture has a special place for gadgets -- but why the expectation that since it was popular there, it should be popular everywhere?
Besides, with the inability of people to keep track of their phones, do you really want whoever finds / steals your phone to buy a bunch of stuff in addition to running up a big list of international calls, all for you to pay for?
Never underestimate the lengths to which some jerk will go to make some poor government employee's job miserable. Especially if they (a) have nothing to do with why the jerk is upset, (b) are powerless to change it, and (c) would be likely to commiserate with the jerk's predicament if he weren't being such a dick about it.
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The US was the first country where credit card verification machines were widely deployed, and that infrastructure seems to satisfy most needs. There's also a tradition that the merchant eats the credit card fees, and law that the bank and merchant are responsible for errors. So from a consumer perspective, it's a good system.
Redwood City, CA just installed a parking meter system which accepts payment via text messages from cell phones. You can even extend your parking time remotely. But there's a $0.35 "convenience fee" for this, because the mobile operator and the payment system operator both want a cut. That kind of thing seems to be typical for US phone-based payment schemes.
When the payment processor is a telco, rather than a bank, they're not subject to bank-type regulation, which means fixing errors is more of a hassle.
We may see more US regulation in this area under the new administration. More "bank-like entities", like hedge funds and "non-bank banks" are being brought under banking and securities regulation, for obvious reasons. That trend may sweep up PayPal, eGold, and other money-handling systems. It used to be expected that entities that handled other people's money were regulated, but over the last two decades or so, ways around this were devised. That didn't work out too well.
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This means I'd have to interrupt my important conversation that I'm having in line and take the time to swipe my phone. I doubt all the people around me listening want me to be inconsiderate to the other person on the other end.
You're not eager to introduce a payment option that has less overhead costs than physical money?
The problem is overloading functions on one device / card.
If I lose my mobile now, it's going to painful and annoying to get it replaced. If I lose it and it has cash deposited on it, then it's just more of a loss.
If I'm being mugged (or pick pocketed), then all I'm askied for now is my wallet. I don't want to have to lose my mobile as well (which I could otherwise use to call for help, a taxi, or the police).
It's the same idea with having driver's licenses or other cards that can hold monetary value (which I think a few US states have). If I have my cash stolen, no big deal, I don't carry a lot; if I have my debit card stolen, it's not too bad as they need to know my PIN, and I have it limited to how much I can withdrawal or purchase on it; with credit cards, I can deny payment.
When all of those functions are on one or two objects (cards or a mobile), then I'm really SOL if I lose it or have it stolen.
Overloading is nice for convenience, not so nice for security.
I would probably burn $100 bucks a week on peanuts and cokes at work. Would still like it, though.
What, me Tweet?
Simply get one of those Visa (PayWave) or Mastercards (PayPass) cards and tape it to your cell phone. Geesh, was that so hard?
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Am I missing something? Why the hell would you need carrier's okay for this? It doesn't use their network. It seems like all you need is the electronics manufactuer and the credit card company, which have very compatible business models. One time pay for electronics for providing a secure platform and hardware, and then either fee based or interest based income for credit cards for maintaining the network and handeling the individual payments. It really shouldn't be that hard. If the carriers are being annoying just cut out the middle man.
When I lived in Japan this was an incredible feature. This is primarily because cellphones are so important in Japan compared to the rest of the world. If you don't have a cellphone in Japan, you don't exist.
Not only are their basic cellphones more intuitive, but also more useful. DoCoMo, SoftBank, AU... all of the Japanese cellphone companies are extremely competitive and offer incredible services. You can watch TV on your phone, scan a "cell phone UPC" code on a movie poster and watch the preview for the movie, use your phone as a debit card, call your girlfriend, email your mom, look up maps, or install open source applications.
You heard that laughing sound when Apple tried to market the iPhone to Japan? It's because their basic phones already had those features and more.
Let me know if you've EVER come across a government employee who "would be likely to commiserate" with the citizen he's supposed to be serving. Personally, I doubt such a mythical creature exists.
It's only anecdotal, but my entire experience with "government employees" has been one of inefficiency, surliness, and general hostility toward their work, the people they interact with, and the world at large. In many cases, they seem to take a perverse pleasure in doing the worst job possible. Honestly, it's hard not to generalize about this group. as my encounters with them have been universally negative.
Love the idea, but I don't see it working. Basically what we are talking about (Sooner or later) is the Credstick from Shadowrun. Your whole ID/Bank/Credit etc all on stick to "slot and run" The whole "Its Credit" thing is crap, it could be attached to a credit system, or it could be debt system or pre-paid. But then again Pre-paid is crap as well, its the same as gift cards, your giving money for a service your not using/getting, if the store / company goes away you lost the money, if you didn't spend the credit within a certain time, you lost the money. And then you have the problem of readers. If I win/loose the bet with the guy in the cube next to me. We have to have a reader just to know exactly what our balances are, have a way to transfer the balance, and someway of that change update to the master database. which at the root of it all is what your really talking about. But Personally putting it on your phone is a bad idea. In the last year I had 5 phones. 1 stolen, 2 upgrades, and 3 destroyed. Anyone know where your info goes, when your cell is off to the shop to be repaired or stolen. Anyone ever dropped a cell. (FYI 250$ for a new screen on a iPhone) Now ask a cabbie, or someone that works in a restaurant how many cells get left behind.... I one saw a guy with a briefcase walk through a subway station and come back with the data from every phone and pda that was powered on in the place at that time, and if you feel safe putting your funds into it go for it. It is making a more hackable, destroyable, losable, more expensive credit card that needs changed all the time. (Not to mention cellular contracts) RFID is not new, its been in use in the states for a long long time, on a lot of toll highways and bridges for commercial use. Could it be done as a sole means of monetary usage in the states, Not a Chance. US is nowhere near as small as Europe, Nor does it have the years of infrastructure in place. Unless your talking about one of the major cities (NYC, LA, etc) and even then we don't even have complete cable coverage or cell coverage here yet! Trains, Bus's, don't exist outside of those major cities which is where most people live. To Put things into comparison, for those that think that one can simply say poof and have miles and miles of line ran, and towers put up. The Whole of The UK is 245,000 km that is all of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales The Whole of the single state of Florida is 170,304 km The Whole of the United States is 9,158,960 km of land. You do the math, and please think of the Cat(6)'s
Digital payments processing should "just work" capturing transaction informations and validating exchanges without selling private behaviors to the highest bidder (including participants) and unwind in accountable fashions
The US banking system is forced by law to process payments by "cheque" or "credit card" period. Every transaction ultimately passes down one of these two legislated payment paths.
Without new legislation for digital transactions that establishes digital protocol, it perverts commerce into this circus of new product actors that are only entertaining instead of simply working. Hence, the money grab of the gatekeepers.
It is a convenience that is just not needed. Cell phones have become so common and cheap that the incentive for stealing them has gone way down (also because of the decrease in the price of long distance calling). But, if you turn cell phones into credit cards, you will see a sudden increase in stolen phones. Thieves will steal any phone they can on the CHANCE that it may also be a credit card!
There is no need for a self-respecting geek to wait for others to get their stuff together. These phones (e.g. Nokia 6131nfc and 6212) have an RFID reader AND writer as well as a programmable platform (Java MIDP) and cell connectivity in a single package.
So a shop owner could create his own loyalty card system (just read the Oyster card's ID and put it in a database) or make up a game of geotagging.
Why bother to wait for the payment stuff? It's cool as it is. :-)
Yeah, I'm biased, having worked in the area for quite a while. But there's no need to wait - just get the phones and hack away :-)
So, the cell phone takes the place of the wallet?
Right now, if my wallet gets wet (rain, fall in the lake, etc.), it's a nuisance but it'll dry. The cell phone is hosed.
It also ties my finances to the cell phone provider.
I have (or had) a wide choice of credit cards, different plans, different banks/credit unions/etc. I don't have the same kind of choice of phone providers.
I don't like this. It's indentured service to a phone company. Banks are bad enough.
And the whole issue of transactions getting hacked, etc. I much prefer physical contact between something I have and the payment device.
This is a BAD idea, but I fear that I won't be able to avoid it if I keep a cell phone.
Oddly enough, the DMV in Reading Mass appears to be the complete opposite, and the MA Department of Fisheries and Wildlife where I get my lobster license is pretty solicitous.
These idiots are still tiring to just use credit card numbers stored in people phones.
Like this isn't a security disaster just waiting to happen. If someone get a CC number tied to someone checking account, they could take 10's of 1000's of dollars from just one individual.
There is no way to limit ones exposure of the vulnerability like paper money does.
With paper money, if I loose my wallet, they only get the $200 or what ever I just took from my ATM and no more. But with the cards, sky's the limit.
If I have a CC card with a 10K limit they can take it all, and leave me on the hook!
http://www.decash.com/ is my solution.
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2005048082 my patent.
This limits one liability, not with legalize but technology, where cash is transferred to the phone like real money. It's done like you would with an ATM! If the phone is compromised, they only get the cash loaded onto the phone and more more.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
Cellphones are used for EVERYTHING in Japan. Best-selling novels have been written on and for cell phones there. There are cellphone-only social networking sites in Japan. Cellphones just don't have that that "one device for everything" status here in the US.
Just rip the RFID PayPass chip out of your debit card and have it surgically implanted underneath your fingertip.
only because a good percentage of the female population would just stand there, staring at the screen in limbo trying to decide if they should get off the phone or not. God forbid if they were at the register and got a text message...
What happens if your cell phone gets stolen? I am sure this idea would make the criminals here in the US salivate. This may work well in a culture such as Japan where crime rates are very low and heavy emphasis is paid on proper respect and saving face. To commit a crime in Japan is to bring shame onto oneself, one's family, and one's peer group. The family is a big focal point for crime prevention so large scale crime other than small, petty stuff is more uncommon.
I don't know how it works in Japan, but in my country the two major cellphone companies are implementing their own "mobile cash replacement" systems since months ago. They work on sms/mms platform, without any readers needed on the vendor side. All you do, as a customer, is enter a menu and transfer the money to the recipient.
It's really understandable: suddenly some financial operations (debit card simile, money transfers) are available to the almost 90% of the population with a cellphone. Most of them were simply off the Banking System before. The percentage of people with access to "classical" finantial institutions / services, such as credit cards or checking accounts is less than 20%. There was clearly a niche to be filled.
Then again, I don't know how viable would the system be, in countries where most of the population do have credit cards.
I don't have a sig.
At times, separate items are desirable:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A13483 h2g2 : the Stick
the governments would prefer you don't use cash because it's not traceable.
So they go on about how criminals and terrorists use cash transactions to hide what they are doing.
And what they are doing is exactly what you are doing.
The companies that must work together to give the technology to the masses can't agree on how to split the resulting revenue.
All the reasons I read on the reason why we aren't using hydrogen powered cars...
The bottom line is this. Major oil companies, like Exxon, benefit from the fact no one can just dig a hole and have their own gasoline. First day of Chemistry class in high school everyone is shown how to seperate hydrogen and oxygen from tap water.
Until the oil companies can find a necessary mixture of hydrogen and some other highly processed chemical that can't be made on any ones kitchen table, or with two empty peanut butter jars...
We will be using gasoline. Period. They can't find a way to make it difficult for people to acquire "hydrogen" fuel. So they'll lose their grip on that portion of the market and revenue flow. That is the only real reason we aren't using powered cars.
However, back to the topic. The differences in the technology are just in the names, in regards to the economic incentives and judgements. It's just easier for them to admit this motive for something so... trivial. But for cars... it's a much bigger business and better to make such publicity seem a conspiracy theory.
only old people use cash or credit cards.
Korean Telcos To Roll Out Contactless Payment
http://www.cardtechnology.com/article.html?id=20060427H8XYKY8U
There's a lot of misinformation floating around in this thread. I'll try and clear some of it up.
Contactless RFID cards have been widespread in Japan for years now. It was started by the train companies, but now you can use them in buses, convenience stores, vending machines and some eateries.
They are easy to use and reliable. The RFID part requires no power source apart from the reader's field. You just wave the card over the reader (you can leave it in your wallet) and it just works.
The system works by you storing money "on" the card (actually on a server). People buy and recharge cards from vending machines at train stations. The classic model is just like cash... lose the card and the money is gone.
You can now register a card in your name and have it cancelled if lost/stolen, and get any remaining balance back.
Most people, however, now have the RFID function embedded in their credit card or phone. They still work as stored value cards... when the balance drops below a threshold it is topped up automatically from your credit card (typically by around $30). Nothing is charged to your phone bill, as has been erroneously suggested.
The security on the Sony Felica cards used in Japan is basically built on 3DES secret keys. Yes, you can conceivably build a reader and mine data like balances and the last 5 transactions while walking around the room. Adding and subtracting money is hard. While probably possible (I'm thinking side channels or implementation bugs), you will leave a trail due to discrepancies with server records. Enough to quickly mark the card as compromised and flag the next use as "call the cops".
Overall, these devices are a huge win. They get rid of the need to carry pocket change. They reduce transaction costs for retailers. They are safer than cash. You still have anonymity if you want it (the Japanese still believe in civil rights).
Welcome to the future.
Ok, they seem to be missing an important fact. When you use Mobile Suica, it's the same as when you use Normal Suica cards, except instead of charging by putting cash in a machine, you charge from a menu on your phone which takes the money from your bank account or credit card. The bank doesn't charge any fee, and neither does the credit card company (unless you carry a balance). If you charge 2000 yen, that's what you pay, and that's what goes on the card - meaning Japan rail doesn't take a cut either. The phone company has nothing whatsoever to do with it, it's a hardware feature of the phone. The phone can be *off* and the IC chip still works, just like the cards (which have no batteries). The only thing it needs the rest of the phone for is when you charge it occasionally. The article mentions the "virtual credit card"? No, it's pre-paid, that's why it can authorize instantly.
The point is, there's no need to squabble over the revenue from it, because there is none to be made directly from it. It saves Japan Rail from dealing with paper tickets, and saves them money that way. It saves stores from having to deal with as much cash, and gets more customers through in less time, and so helps them that way. It saves consumers time and lets me go to the ATM less often.
Suica isn't the only card, but all of the cards use the same hardware standard (Sony Felica - which, unlike the cards they want to use in the us - hasn't been hacked), so the readers are compatible. The cards differ at the application level for storing other things besides money. Instead of bickering about it, the US should try something different - adopt a standard already in use. Then when it does become popular in the US, travelers won't have to deal with two different systems in the US and Japan.
There are many different ways in which you can build payment systems on top of existing phone technologies.
But why tie this to a phone? Standard smart card or RFID technologies are already used for "waving" payment systems; they can easily be offered in a form that you can stick to the back of your phone if you like.
Even my parents (in their 70's) text, chat, send E-mail and take photos with their phones. They like playing with themes and ring tone. And if video calls, podcasts and movie making worked better, they'd be using that, too. And they are not technical people at all.
In fact, in my experience, many people find using a phone for some task easier than using a computer for the same task.