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Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
This idea is absolutely mormonic!
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Wouldn't the story more accurately be titled "Utah stops mulling a database of bar customers"?
Tourism? In Utah?
This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
Utah still has(Had) a firing squad as method of execution until not long ago IIRC
What's wrong with that? If you believe in the death penalty then I don't see firing squads as being any worse than lethal injection. Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles. If you don't believe in the death penalty then it seems that you shouldn't be limiting your criticism to Utah.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Say what?!?!?
Ok...this is really getting scary. Why should I have to swipe my drivers license (remenber, it was given as proof of driving certification, tax..etc) to get a drink? And why the hell should anyone know when I go to a bar (or anywhere else for that matter)?
Now...I'm thinking...if the RealID thing does finally come to fruition, well now...this national database would have some good data to throw in it. Let's cut benefits on (possibly coming) your national healthcare. Since you drink, and are exposed to smoke (well, you still can at most bars I go to)...you are a health risk and we the govt. won't pay as much for you. Or even with private insurance, I'm sure they'll get ahold of this sooner or later.
Amd..once the populace accepts swiping for bar entry...well, I'm sure they won't mind swiping for entry into drug stores, that would help gather your meds usage. How about grocery store for purchases, that way we can track your unhealthy eating habits.
And then of course...no need for EZPass...your nifty new drivers license will have RFID...so, that will make it easier for you....we can track your travels.
Ok, some of this sound far fetched? It might not be....the govt. lawnakers start small enough, but, pretty much every law passed has been expanded or abused.
In discussions yesterday, I recalled that when they first started passing seatbelt laws, they stated emphatically that the cops could NOT pull you over for not wearing one, but, if they pulled you over for something else, like running a stop sign, and saw you weren't wearing one....they could cite you.
Well, a few years later, once that was agreeable....they changed it, to being able to pull you over if they see you without one.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
There are conventional bars in Utah, or at least there are things that look a lot like bars, they just are technically clubs and require you to fill out a form and pay a small "membership fee" to get a drink.
I don't know whether, like Virginia, they require the bar to also serve food, but I would bet that they do, and the ones that I went to had restaurants attached. (In the 1960's, by the way, bars in Fairfax, Virginia, also required, or at least were supposed to require, membership.)
In Utah there are lots of National Parks there (Zion, Bryce Canyon, Canyonlands, Arches, Capitol Reef), National Monuments, and a National Recreation Area. Between them, they draw in something over five million visitors per year, IIRC. All are big with hikers and nature enthusiasts. Canyonlands and Grand Staircase-Escalante are also big with the mountain biking and off-road vehicle crowd.
I like shaved pussy.
I believe Utah requires a permit for that too.
I disagree. They obviously don't have time to commit crimes when they have 20 wives nagging at them.
Can all fish swim?
Is this news to anyone? Where I live, in a dry county, the same rules apply. Liquor in private clubs only, and you have to sign in, and pay to be a "member". There is a lot of circumvention of the rules, but to get booze, I have to drive to the state line. I agree that it's backasswards, but it's not news. In Utah it's Mormons, elsewhere, it's Baptists. These guys need to learn how to party like Lutherans.
Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
I saw an amusing poll on ESPN about Michael Phelps, who recently admitted to using pot.
Across the country about 75%-90% said they thought no less of the best swimmer in the world for using a recreational drug.
Except in Utah where almost 50% said they thought less of him. They are very detached from the mainstream.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
There's a fair bit of debate in this point, leading to a Supreme Court case. Lethal Injection Potentially Not Painless
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Says who? If you believe the anti-death penalty crowd it's horrible agonizing pain. I don't really know who to believe as every side has an agenda and we can't exactly ask the people who were executed what it was like. I suspect the reality is probably somewhere in the middle of the 'no pain' and 'worse than being burned alive' arguments.
I know it's not manly and tough but...
*shrug*, for me at least it doesn't have anything to do with that. I'd honestly rather be shot than strapped to a table and killed with a needle. A head shot would be even better and probably painless (the brain is destroyed faster than the pain receptors can fire) but I'd still take the shots to the heart over the needle. To each their own I guess....
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
Raping and/or stoning would be cruel and unusual punishment. Being shot isn't, IMHO.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
In Texas, cities can decide to be wet or dry. In a "dry" city, a restaurant that serves alcohol must be a "private club." It's not so much a "private club" in that there are significant membership requirements, anyone can join if they're of age and there's no membership fee or ongoing responsibilities. I'm sure it's just another way for the city to tax the restaurant - how much does it cost to get a "private club" permit?
So if you're eating out and you want to have a beer, you must present a club membership card. Most restaurants have signed up with a company called Unicard. If you sign up at one Unicard restaurant...er..."private club" then you are automatically a member everywhere that takes Unicard. Years ago you actually got a separate membership card. Now it's associated with your driver's license number. When I was waiting tables the computer would refuse to let me input a drink order until I swiped a customer's Unicard (or driver's license). I'm sure that the computer was checking with the Unicard database to make sure that the person was actually a member. Was it tracking them? I have no idea. Probably so, in case the restaurant needed to look back and prove that a certain customer was in fact a member of the club when they bought that drink. Aside from the inherent lawsuit risks of serving alcohol, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission is known for being ruthless and handing down VERY expensive fines to the restaurant and the waiter for any infraction.
A significant difference here is that Unicard is a private company, not a government entity. I'm sure they'll be quick to share their database if asked by a court, especially if it involves "terrists" or kiddie porn.
Disclaimer: IANAW (any more). I haven't waited tables for several years and I rarely drink when I'm out. Things may be different now.
Nevada is less dense population wise yet has twice the murder rate of the nation and violent crime as well.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0297.pdf
(And in its infinite wisdom, Slashdot is now making me wait at least five minutes between posts. in my prior experience, this will become ten and then fifteen. It happens as soon as I get one downmod. I love Slashdot where the GNAA can post as much as they want, but with positive karma, I get effectively censored.)
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
I'm no fan of needles, but I'm also afraid of bullets.
Oh, and death itself.
You mean this site? Overall, murders are very rare.
USA: 5/100,000 people
Utah: 2/100,000 people
Iowa: 1/100,000 people
Iowa has more people than Utah and doesn't have such draconian moral restrictions. In fact, they're much more liberal than Utah. Does that mean liberalism has concrete benefits in terms of murder rates?
Got an RFID tag in your drivers license? Throw it in the microwave for 2 seconds.
Got a magstripe on your drivers license? Rub it with a magnet a few times.
Got a barcode on your drivers license? Use a little fine grit sandpaper on a few blocks.
Oh, that's funny, I wonder why your reader can't read my license. Must not be working right.
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
That's not actually that uncommon. New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similiar. New York also prohibits grocery stores from selling wine/spirits (they can sell beer though) and liquor stores from selling beer (they sell wine/spirits).
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Hmm. I was curious too. From the most recent data I could find :
Murder rate, 2007, Utah, per 100,000 : 2.2
Murder rate, 2004, Germany, per 100,000 : 0.98
Murder rate, 2002, Saudi Arabia, per 100,000 : 0.92
So, clearly Utah is either too religious, or not religious enough. Or something.
Yeah, whatever. It's a terrible thing to have to execute someone. It shouldn't be something you can support from arms length. It shouldn't be something you hire a professional to do for you, so you can keep your hands clean and remain philosophical about it. If you, as a community, are deciding to execute someone, and you as an individual are supporting the decision, then you should have to confront the consequences, see the blood and pain, and have good reason not to be cavalier about it.
Societies that have an executioner who takes them into a room where no one can see and makes the person disappear are the barbaric ones, while those societies where the citizens stone the person to death are the civilized ones. It has nothing to do with the pain suffered by the dying, and everything to do with the pain suffered by the living.
Killing people doesn't make you manly and tough. But hiring someone else to do it for you does makes you cowardly and small.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Here's one that gets thrown around alot on /. - Correlation does not imply causation.
The legislated morality may have very little to do with the crime rate. I mean, it's not a coincidence that Utah's overall violent crime rate is low- AND there's a ton of salt in their lake!
Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
To eat casseroles, stare at their own feed, and mumble about the weather?
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
This is only true if either A) the "club" is otherwise totally empty, or B) you are such a complete and total douchebag that nobody would want you to come into the bar. The reason is because there is a provision in this stupid law that allows any club member to sponsor you as a guest, apparently for free. And while I am not a member of any such clubs so I don't know exactly how small the "membership fee" is, I am told that at many such clubs the fee is laughably small. The more exclusive ones (the fun clubs in Park City, for example) charge a higher fee because they can.
I live in Utah, and while I am not a frequent bar patron, I do go on occasion. The first time I went out to a bar after moving here, I was shocked to find out that I would not be allowed to enter without a membership or being sponsored by a member. Then the door girl explained that you just ask anybody to sponsor you, and they will. She asked the next guy in for me. "Hey, will you sponsor this guy?" He replied, yeah sure, like it was an everyday thing.
There are social benefits to this. Since frequent bar patrons have an incentive to become members of their favorite "club", the clubs seem to gravitate a certain type of person far more than in other places I have lived or visited. In other words, the cool clubs really are cool, and are often completely lacking in douchebags which is a welcome change from just about anywhere else in the world.
I may be wrong on this, but I believe if there is an event at the club on any given night, the membership requirement is waived. The dance clubs capitalize on this by hosting "events" every night of the week with a cover charge, so they essentially circumvent the law.
It's unfortunate that the Utah state legislosers play such a tremendous role in perpetuating oddball stereotypes about this state. In reality, most Mormons are very nice people, and most non-Mormon Utahns, in their ever-increasing numbers, do a great job of being non-Mormons.
Utahn here. Here is a brief synopsis of what you can expect about drinking in Utah.
Taverns are bars that sell beer only. They do not require memberships, can only sell 3.2% alcohol content beer. Food is not required to be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Private Clubs are bars that can sell stronger beer and spirits. A membership is required, or to be the guest of a member. In practice many places don't pay a lot of attention to this requirement. Many offer a temporary membership for around $5. The average price for a year membership is $12. Only one mixed drink per person at a time can be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Restaurants. If a restaurant has a liquor license they can sell spirits and beer without requiring memberships. However, you have to purchase food at the same time. Some restaurants only have a tavern license and only offer beer pr wine.
Liquor stores are a state run monopoly. You have to go to the state package store in order to purchase wine, beer stronger than 3.2% or spirits. This is the only way to purchase these products.
I wrote this article years ago regarding drinking in Utah. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A279731
it is better to light a flame thrower than curse the darkness. -Terry Pratchett Men at Arms
Liquor Laws require that any Restauraunt serve a higher percentage of food than Liquor. If you buy a drink from a restaurant, they often require you get an entree too for this reason. If they sell more drinks than food, their liquor license gets changed to a private club, and then they have to charge the private club fee.
Social gatherings in any place outside homes and bars (say, an art show) is limited to ONE glass of Wine per person, only 3x a year. We have something called the gallery stroll (through the downtown art galleries) and they cannot serve alcohol other than those 3x a year.
Bars and clubs also MUST buy liquor from the state, too. So bars cannot get a volume discount from say, jack daniels, and they pay the same price that any local pays for alcohol, with the high taxes and all.
Then, we have the limit on the amount of alcohol in a drink. you can only have 1 oz of hard liquor in a drink, mixed with 1.5 oz of non-alcoholic flavoring. As far as I know (I don't go out to drink here, it's too expensive/hard) you cannot mix alcohol types, so essentially, no Long Island Ice Teas or any other multiple spirit drinks.
The most frustrating thing about the database was reported in the news as "The Latter day saints church has no problem with changing the laws to make a database". That's not news! It's an incidental, not the reason, but it's well known that state legislators always meet with Church leaders before making changes like this.
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
Pork, corn, and bad driving: The secrets to a murder free lifestyle.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
The three drug cocktail used in executions can be abused, horrifyingly, by the person administering it to cause terrible suffering. Some executions take an hour or two to complete. There certainly exist sickos who would just love to inflict this kind of horror; and then there also exists others I'd still call sickos who think engaging in an hour or two of horrible torture is something that the convicted justly deserves.
Obviously I'm not accusing all executioners of being monsters. But I see no reason for anything that can be "played with" to be part of executions. A single drug, a highly potent long acting barbiturate, for example, that is administered in overwhelmingly large overdose and that would have the convict unconscious in seconds and dead in a very very few minutes would take away this three-drug sicko game.
I believe that a recent US Supreme court decision said something like there was not enough proof that anything horrible was going on, and so they didn't order any change to lethal injection as a form of execution.
How willfully blind.
The fact that it's *possible* to turn the three-drug regimen into something horrible guarantees that the sickos will try.
Suddenly the firing squad option seems pretty humane by comparison!
I have, and it's a puzzling experience. I was there on IT business for a week, about a year before they hosted the Olympics.
In the area around Park City, you didn't need to join the "private club." At a casual Italian place, we all wanted to order a beer. You couldn't say to the server, "What do you have on tap?" She replied by bringing a beer menu because it wasn't appropriate (perhaps illegal?) for her to actually discuss the alcoholic beverages with us.
We did the "private club" thing at a very good steakhouse in Salt Lake City. I believe it was $10 for the "membership." If you ordered a mixed drink--any mixed drink--the server automatically said, "Would you like a sidecar with that?" (A sidecar being an additional measured shot of whatever booze was involved.) Martinis arrived in glasses only 3/4 full because the hooch was so precisely measured.
The freakish thing about it was that, because it was a "private club," it was perfectly OK to smoke anywhere--right at the table, right next to a table that might or might not have been hosting smokers. No problem. So the other big Mormon no-no, tobacco, is apparently not quite as regulated.
My observation over the week were that the Mormons among our hosts had no problems at all with our ordering a drink, beer, or wine at dinner. The company hosted us at a very nice private dinner party on our last evening, and alcohol was readily available. I chose not to drink that evening to conform to their sensibilities, then screwed up by ordering an iced tea.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
I honestly don't mean this as a troll, but seriously, how much non-Mormon tourism is there in Utah?
Apparently a lot of people like to strap long slats to their feet and then hurtle down snow covered mountains at high speeds. Some say Utah is a good place to do this.
Also, every January thousands of black-clad posers come and put on some kind of film festival. Something about dancing on the sun.
If the geiger counter does not click, the coffee, she is not thick.
Hell, that's nothing. In Pennsylvania you cannot buy ANY form of alcoholic beverage in a grocery store, drug store, or convenience store. ALL non malt-based liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) is sold exclusively at state-owned liquor stores. All malt-based liquor (beer, wine coolers, etc) must be purchased at a beverage distributor - though if you just want a six pack or a 40, you can get them at the local deli, but NOT a convenience store, a bit of an odd exception.
The PA liquor stores do swipe your ID through a reader if they choose to card you (the clerks are trained to use their best judgement - I used to be one in college), and I've seen a few Philadelphia-area bars do the same.
Have you considered a job with the Supreme Court? You'd fit right in:
STAHL: If someone's in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized, by a law enforcement person - if you listen to the expression "cruel and unusual punishment," doesn't that apply?
SCALIA: No. To the contrary. You think - Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don't think so.
STAHL: Well I think if you're in custody, and you have a policeman who's taken you into custody-
SCALIA: And you say he's punishing you? What's he punishing you for? - When he's hurting you in order to get information from you, you wouldn't say he's punishing you. What is he punishing you for?"
You are still the only state that can, at times, makes us in Idaho feel a little less backwards. Thanks.
New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similar.
I lived in upstate NY for 6 long years and I can attest to the fact that, apart from NYC, it is basically a red state full of religious types.
"You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
<= 3.2% ABV is NOT beer.
"It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
Um - you're a little late there. "Mormons" are in pretty much every country on Earth. In the US, there are 6 million LDS church members - so one out of 50 people in the US is a "Mormon". Utah has 1.5 million LDS church members in it - so excluding Utah it is 1 out of 60.
There are 7 million members in the rest of the world - so there are actually more "Mormons" that live outside the United States than that live inside. The church is growing at 3% per year - doubling every 15 years or so.
For fun facts, the country of Tonga is 46% Mormon. The country of Samoa is 36%. Utah is 72%. Hawaii is 5%.
What rock have you been under?
while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
I'm not sure why this is so, given that the technique used on domestic animals pretty much Just Works; but it is.
Because animals are usually put down with a massive overdose of pentobarbital, which effectively turns their brain off. I had to have one of our cats put down last year - she was unconscious before the vet had completed the injection and dead less than 15 seconds later, with no signs of any discomfort.
This business of using a cocktail of drugs to paralyze and ultimately stop the heart of the condemned is just ridiculous. I don't know that pentobarbital overdose in humans works the same way as it does in animals, but there's got to be a better way. It's not pretty, but frankly a gunshot to the back of the head seems a lot more humane than most execution methods used in the US today.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
That's not entirely accurate. The law was changed last year so that the primary alcohol in a drink (say vodka in a long island, or a single shot of anything) can contain up to 1.5 ounces of a certain alcohol. The most any drink can contain is 2.5 ounces. Previously, it was a max of 1 ounce of primary, and a total of 2.75 ounces. You can get long islands (or any of it's billion other varieties such as long beach, etc), but the flavor will probably be off due to anywhere from 1 ounce to 1.5 ounces of primary, and anywhere from 1 ounce to 1.5 ounces of other liquors (rum, tequilla, triple sec, etc). You can mix alcohol types. You can't do sidecars, however, because that would be more than 1.5 ounces of the same primary alcohol. It's confusing, and it really sucks explaining to patrons on a busy night.